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Avengers:
1. Cap
2. Thor
3. Iron Man
4. Hulk
5.Vision
6. Quasar
7. Namor
Reserves
1. Dr. Strange
2. Scarlet Witch
3. Nova

JLA
1. Superman
2. Batman
3. Green Lantern (Kyle)
4. Wally West
5. Aquaman
6. Wonder Woman
7. Martian Manhunter
Reserves
1. Dr. Fate (Kent)
2. Zatanna
3. Firestorm

At first glance it looks like these are two very evenly matched teams. But a closer look reveals that Team JLA has two members with an ability that Team Avengers has no answer for (especially with it's mages being occupied by Team JLA's mages).

Team JLA, they work for it but they get the majority.

Avengers main team has no telepaths or speedster not that they can do anything to wally. JLA wins.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Avengers main team has no telepaths or speedster not that they can do anything to wally. JLA wins.

Nova is a legit speedster. See: AvX Infinite

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Nova is a legit speedster. See: AvX Infinite
Oops, forgot about nova.

Missed the edit window.

Nova flew 80,000 light years in five weeks, and the narrative directly states that the Worldmind regulates and amps his reflexes to match the speed so he can navigate space and avoid collisions (and slows them down when he doesn't need them so the trip doesn't take an eternity from his perspective). Dude is fast.

Nova vs flash would be an awesome fight to see.

I'm giving JLA the nod on this one. But I'd love to see this fight.

I have to catch up on Nova, travel speed != battle speed. But JLA should take a slight majority.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I have to catch up on Nova, travel speed != battle speed. But JLA should take a slight majority.

Normally, but in this case his reflexes are directly stated to be on par with his flight speed.

JLA wins though. Avengers reserves are over all more powerful, but the main line up JLA has a not insubstantial power advantage and Thor and Quasar can't make up for all the weak links.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I have to catch up on Nova, travel speed != battle speed. But JLA should take a slight majority.

He was "travelling" pretty fast crashing to earth after he got his ass handed to him recently, lol.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Normally, but in this case his reflexes are directly stated to be on par with his flight speed.

JLA wins though. Avengers reserves are over all more powerful, but the main line up JLA has a not insubstantial power advantage and Thor and Quasar can't make up for all the weak links.

How are the reserves more powerful? Kent and Zatanna are hard to beat combo. Plus, Firestorm.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
How are the reserves more powerful? Kent and Zatanna are hard to beat combo. Plus, Firestorm.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxjpanb2yL1qg40aro1_500.gif

Because:

Strange > Fate
Witch > Zatanna
Nova > Firestorm

I thought the Marvel reserves being more powerful was a conscious decision on your part to remedy the power imbalance on the main teams... but apparently not

Strange isn't > Fate. Especially not Kent Nelson.

Average Scarlet the same. I'd rank Z over her, especially now.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Missed the edit window.

Nova flew 80,000 light years in five weeks, and the narrative directly states that the Worldmind regulates and amps his reflexes to match the speed so he can navigate space and avoid collisions (and slows them down when he doesn't need them so the trip doesn't take an eternity from his perspective). Dude is fast.
Actually he was navigating at hyperspeed which means he was operating in hyperspace. That's how GLs navigate in space, doesn't mean they have similar reflexes. Also nova directly states in the comic that his mind couldn't catch what worldmind was feeding in his mind.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/th_Zone029.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/th_Zone036.jpg

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Strange > Fate
Witch > Zatanna
Nova > Firestorm


http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/demotivational-posters-mr-t-facepalm.jpg

Also, if I recall correctly, time is weird when in hyperspace - it could have been five weeks, it could have been five minutes....

So reaction times are meaningless. Not that it wasn't an impressive feat, mind you - just that I don't think we will be able to use 'time' as we know it to measure his feat.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, if I recall correctly, time is weird when in hyperspace - it could have been five weeks, it could have been five minutes....

So reaction times are meaningless. Not that it wasn't an impressive feat, mind you - just that I don't think we will be able to use 'time' as we know it to measure his feat.
Exactly.

If by "Kent", you mean Kent Nelson, then he can solo. If you mean Kent V. Nelson, then the JLA still wins IMO. there's one weak link on the JLA, and 5 on the Avengers.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Actually he was navigating at hyperspeed which means he was operating in hyperspace. That's how GLs navigate in space, doesn't mean they have similar reflexes. Also nova directly states in the comic that his mind couldn't catch what worldmind was feeding in his mind.


I'm not sure what your rational behind the first part of this post is. Hyperspace is a pseudo scientific term created for science fiction that attempts to rationalize greater than light speeds by up shifting the person / space ship / whatever into a theoretical new dimension. Anytime something hits greater than light speed travel, they are in hyperspace.

It stated that his mind couldn't catch up to his brain (or vice versa)... whatever that means. Nova missed the deceleration by a split second, which when traveling at thousands of times greater than the speed of light is a massive margin of era, and then he had trouble compensated and adjusting because he was extremely disoriented for some reason.


Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, if I recall correctly, time is weird when in hyperspace - it could have been five weeks, it could have been five minutes....

So reaction times are meaningless. Not that it wasn't an impressive feat, mind you - just that I don't think we will be able to use 'time' as we know it to measure his feat.

The rest of the book, that wasn't included in the scans, explains why that comment was made and just what it means exactly in the context of the story. The Worldmind regulates Nova's reaction time and perception, so that when he doesn't need to react to anything, his mind slows down. The reasoning being that even if a person could move at speeds greater than light, if they also perceived the world around them at the same speed - which they would need to in order to navigate - that relative to their own perspective it would take them just as long as anyone else to get anywhere or get anything done. How long would it talk you or I to walk to China? Realistically... it should take Flash the same amount of time relative to his perception of reality. That would be enough to drive a person insane... now imagine the same thing except the distance is 80,000 light years. Time isn't weird in hyperspace, the Worldmind simply speeds up and slows down Nova's mind, so that he only has the reactions when he needs them and doesn't have to spend an eternity flying through space in his own mind.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/th_Zone028.jpg

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm not sure what your rational behind the first part of this post is. Hyperspace is a pseudo scientific term created for science fiction that attempts to rationalize greater than light speeds by up shifting the person / space ship / whatever into a theoretical new dimension. Anytime something hits greater than light speed travel, they are in hyperspace.

It stated that his mind couldn't catch up to his brain (or vice versa)... whatever that means. Nova missed the deceleration by a split second, which when traveling at thousands of times greater than the speed of light is a massive margin of era, and then he had trouble compensated and adjusting because he was extremely disoriented for some reason.




The rest of the book, that wasn't included in the scans, explains why that comment was made and just what it means exactly in the context of the story. The Worldmind regulates Nova's reaction time and perception, so that when he doesn't need to react to anything, his mind slows down. The reasoning being that even if a person could move at speeds greater than light, if they also perceived the world around them at the same speed - which they would need to in order to navigate - that relative to their own perspective it would take them just as long as anyone else to get anywhere or get anything done. How long would it talk you or I to walk to China? Realistically... it should take Flash the same amount of time relative to his perception of reality. That would be enough to drive a person insane... now imagine the same thing except the distance is 80,000 light years. Time isn't weird in hyperspace, the Worldmind simply speeds up and slows down Nova's mind, so that he only has the reactions when he needs them and doesn't have to spend an eternity flying through space in his own mind.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/th_Zone028.jpg
Yeah, but we've people flying and acting FTL in normal space too. That's nothing new, gl rings does that all the time. I dont think anyone would call a gl speedster? That's hyperspace travelling and it can't be used as a combat speed feat.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, but we've people flying and acting FTL in normal space too. That's nothing new, gl rings does that all the time. I dont think anyone would call a gl speedster? That's hyperspace travelling and it can't be used as a combat speed feat.

No one would call a GL a speedster because there isn't on panel narration that directly stats their reaction time is increased to allow them to navigate at speeds far exceeding light speed. You are caught on the term hyperspace like it means something, all it means is the character up shifted into a higher dimension that allows for the possibility of FTL travel because the normal dimensions don't. Hyperspace isn't real, it's a theoretical explanation that attempts rationalize the ability to move faster than light with scientific laws of the universe. You might not be explicitly told in the narration but if a character is moving FTL they are probably in Hyperspace...

We separate travel speed and combat speed because most writers don't bother to give us an explanation of the delineation of the two, but in this particular case Mark Waid explained exactly what was happening.

I have scans of GL's reacting and fighting at high speeds

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No one would call a GL a speedster because there isn't on panel narration that directly stats their reaction time is increased to allow them to navigate at speeds far exceeding light speed. You are caught on the term hyperspace like it means something, all it means is the character up shifted into a higher dimension that allows for the possibility of FTL travel because the normal dimensions don't. Hyperspace isn't real, it's a theoretical explanation that attempts rationalize the ability to move faster than light with scientific laws of the universe. You might not be explicitly told in the narration but if a character is moving FTL they are probably in Hyperspace...

We separate travel speed and combat speed because most writers don't bother to give us an explanation of the delineation of the two, but in this particular case Mark Waid explained exactly what was happening.
And? How does that disqualifies lanterns navigating in space? Do you mean that since there is no narration to suggest that their mental processes were increased, then they are flying blind in the asteroids and suns? I can show you a random gl acting in nanoseconds then.

You need to read more comics, seriously. Hyperspace is a real concept in comics that allows characters to travel in space. It isn't allowed in combat feats because then we would have silver surfer reacting millions of lightyears in seconds level speed, nearly every space based character would be far faster than lightspeed based upon travel speed in hyperspace.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I have scans of GL's reacting and fighting at high speeds
Quiet you.uhuh

Originally posted by abhilegend
And? How does that disqualifies lanterns navigating in space? Do you mean that since there is no narration to suggest that their mental processes were increased, then they are flying blind in the asteroids and suns? I can show you a random gl acting in nanoseconds then.

You need to read more comics, seriously. Hyperspace is a real concept in comics that allows characters to travel in space. It isn't allowed in combat feats because then we would have silver surfer reacting millions of lightyears in seconds level speed, nearly every space based character would be far faster than lightspeed based upon travel speed in hyperspace.

And now you've touched up on the problem a lot of people have trouble grasping when they first join a comic forum and learn we separate travel speed from combat speed, that it logically it makes little sense. If a character can fly at the speed of light, the would need to have reflexes to match it or like you side they would be essentially flying blind and unable to navigate... that should translate over into combat speed, but we've seen thousands of times that it doesn't. Normally writers don't bother to address travel speed and how it works and why it's so drastically different that what that character is capable otherwise, but in this particular case were expressly told what is happening and Waid explains how it works in great detail. It is stated clear as day in the narration that the Worldmind can increase Nova's reaction time to compensate for him traveling thousands of times faster than the speed of light. That's his reaction time, not his flight speed.

You seem to be under the impression that traveling in hyperspace somehow... what... innately increases the reflexes a person there? It doesn't. The concept of Hyperspace is incredibly simple, you can't go faster than the speed of light in the three dimensions we exist in, so the character enters a higher dimension where that speed is possible. That's it. It's not magic.

Travel speed vs combat speed is a legitimate argument, I think. I would agree though, if someone can run at super speed in normal space (not hyperspace), then they can fight at that speed too. Moving your legs really fast means you can move the rest of your body at a comparable speed. BUT, if someone has to enter hyperspace to travel FTL, then they would also have to prove to have FTL combat speed separately, IMO.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Travel speed vs combat speed is a legitimate argument, I think. I would agree though, if someone can run at super speed in normal space (not hyperspace), then they can fight at that speed too. Moving your legs really fast means you can move the rest of your body at a comparable speed. BUT, if someone has to enter hyperspace to travel FTL, then they would also have to prove to have FTL combat speed separately, IMO.

Everyone needs to enter Hyperspace to hit FTL. That's what Hyperspace is. If a character is moving FTL, they are in Hyperspace.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And now you've touched up on the problem a lot of people have trouble grasping when they first join a comic forum and learn we separate travel speed from combat speed, that it logically it makes little sense. If a character can fly at the speed of light, the would need to have reflexes to match it or like you side they would be essentially flying blind and unable to navigate... that should translate over into combat speed, but we've seen thousands of times that it doesn't. Normally writers don't bother to address travel speed and how it works and why it's so drastically different that what that character is capable otherwise, but in this particular case were expressly told what is happening and Waid explains how it works in great detail. It is stated clear as day in the narration that the Worldmind can increase Nova's reaction time to compensate for him traveling thousands of times faster than the speed of light. That's his reaction time, not his flight speed.

You seem to be under the impression that traveling in hyperspace somehow... what... innately increases the reflexes a person there? It doesn't. The concept of Hyperspace is incredibly simple, you can't go faster than the speed of light in the three dimensions we exist in, so the character enters a higher dimension where that speed is possible. That's it. It's not magic.
No, it isn't. If you have the reaction time of thousands of times lightspeed you can't have hit a planet by an error of split-second, that's like years for a guy with that kind of reflexes. We also were told by the same guy that his mind can't catch what worldmind was feeding in his mind and he can't feel what time has passed.

No, hyperspace is a medium in comics which allows characters to travel across space without explaining how they can navigate at that speed. People explicitly slower than lightspeed have entered hyperspace, byrne superman pushed a ship towing earth and moon simultaneously through hyperspace.

You can't seem to grasp that these travelling feats in hyperspace=/=combat feats. This isn't magic.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it isn't. If you have the reaction time of thousands of times lightspeed you can't have hit a planet by an error of split-second, that's like years for a guy with that kind of reflexes. We also were told by the same guy that his mind can't catch what worldmind was feeding in his mind and he can't feel what time has passed.

No, hyperspace is a medium in comics which allows characters to travel across space without explaining how they can navigate at that speed. People explicitly slower than lightspeed have entered hyperspace, byrne superman pushed a ship towing earth and moon simultaneously through hyperspace.

You can't seem to grasp that these travelling feats in hyperspace=/=combat feats. This isn't magic.

Read the issue again. He was programmed to slow down when he detected Earth's gravity, but what happened is that his mind slowed down before his body decelerated, and the slow down process disorientated him and he was unable to control his landing. That's all clearly illustrated by the spinning blades of the helicopter, which start out spinning in a blur but become stationary as he starts to regain his composer and tries to regain control.

How could you have so much trouble understanding such a simple concept? He was traveling in space for 5 weeks, but it seems like 5 minutes to him because the Worldmind is regulate his perception of time and space

That's not what Hyperspace is. It's simply a higher dimension in which FTL is possible. That's it. The moment anyone hits FTL speeds they are in Hyperspace, because "regular" space doesn't allow for that possibility FTL speeds. It's not a worm hole, stargate or a mass relay.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Strange > Fate Depends largely on the versions, but no recent Strange has been on Kent's level
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Witch > Zatanna False. Unless Wanda is at her godly levels (in which case this thread is stupid), then her best hopes are to match Zee.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Nova > Firestorm
Meh. Debatable. Current Firestorm's power level is weird.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Everyone needs to enter Hyperspace to hit FTL. That's what Hyperspace is. If a character is moving FTL, they are in Hyperspace.

Yeah, maybe in the real world you can't go FTL in normal space. Not in comics. How is Superman rebuilding a city faster than light when he's in hyperspace? Hyperspace is another dimension. To be rebuilding a city in this dimension, one would have to BE IN this dimension.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Yeah, maybe in the real world. Not in comics. How is Superman rebuilding a city faster than light when he's in hyperspace? Hyperspace is another dimension. To be rebuilding a city in this dimension, one would have to BE IN this dimension.

In the real world Hyperspace doesn't exist. This is going to get far too complicated for my journey man understanding of quantum physics and string theory to explain. Suffice to say that by accessing a higher dimension doesn't move Superman (or whoever) into a different reality or universe, if it did Nova would have no need to for the Worldmind to regulate his speed as he would simple be out of phase with everything around him and navigation around obstacles wouldn't matter all that much. We normally exist and perceive the world in three dimensions, with the fourth being time. If we equate Hyperspace and time (the first being a hypothetical 5th dimension for the sake of this discussion, and the latter being the forth), if someone had control over time that wouldn't remove then from the other three dimensions they exist in, it just also include them in a forth. Same thing goes for Hyperspeed.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Everyone needs to enter Hyperspace to hit FTL. That's what Hyperspace is. If a character is moving FTL, they are in Hyperspace.

This will be true for Marvel U, Not for DC U their rules of physics are different.

You don't need anything greater than human level perceptions to travel at lightspeed in space.

Space is vast, and light is slow as shit in space.

30+ minutes just to travel the distance from jupiter and earth, depending on their respective positions at the time.

So yeah, mere lightspeed would be difficult to navigate with in the vastness of space. And it would take speeds significantly, significantly greater than lightspeed for someone to require lightspeed+ perception speed to navigate comfortably.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
In the real world Hyperspace doesn't exist. This is going to get far too complicated for my journey man understanding of quantum physics and string theory to explain. Suffice to say that by accessing a higher dimension doesn't move Superman (or whoever) into a different reality or universe, if it did Nova would have no need to for the Worldmind to regulate his speed as he would simple be out of phase with everything around him and navigation around obstacles wouldn't matter all that much. We normally exist and perceive the world in three dimensions, with the fourth being time. If we equate Hyperspace and time (the first being a hypothetical 5th dimension for the sake of this discussion, and the latter being the forth), if someone had control over time that wouldn't remove then from the other three dimensions they exist in, it just also include them in a forth. Same thing goes for Hyperspeed.

LOL. Wow. Not sure where you get from my post that hyperspace exists in reality. For the record I also don't believe the dark dimension or the phantom zone exist either. Yeah, in the REAL WORLD, you need to warp space somehow to travel FTL in theory, but not in comic books.

And you're really trying to use the physics of string theory and quantum mechanics to explain how Superman can rebuild a city FTL? You're just making yourself look stupid. Here's the simple explantion:

Superman is NOT IN HYPERSPACE WHILE HE'S REBUILDING THE CITY. He's simply moving FTL IN OUR DIMENSION. (yeah, that's impossible in our world, but so is demolecularizing people with a thought, and so is a giant guy in a purple helmet eating a planet. So is breathing and talking in space).

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Read the issue again. He was programmed to slow down when he detected Earth's gravity, but what happened is that his mind slowed down before his body decelerated, and the slow down process disorientated him and he was unable to control his landing. That's all clearly illustrated by the spinning blades of the helicopter, which start out spinning in a blur but become stationary as he starts to regain his composer and tries to regain control.

How could you have so much trouble understanding such a simple concept? He was traveling in space for 5 weeks, but it seems like 5 minutes to him because the Worldmind is regulate his perception of time and space

That's not what Hyperspace is. It's simply a higher dimension in which FTL is possible. That's it. The moment anyone hits FTL speeds they are in Hyperspace, because "regular" space doesn't allow for that possibility FTL speeds. It's not a worm hole, stargate or a mass relay.
So you're arguing that a scene that was told by the same narration at which you're holding your whole argument is wrong when it says "I just wish my mind could catch what this helmet is telling me", is it?
You should catch up with some respect threads regarding marvel cosmic characters, asap. You are again mixing real world science with comic world science.

So you're saying this isn't an example of superman entering hyperspace?

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Strength/lifting/TheEarthStealersa-1.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Strength/lifting/TheEarthStealersb-1.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Strength/lifting/TheEarthStealersc-1.jpg

I thought it was clear that there were many methods of FTL travel in comics.

As far as I know, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but to travel across space really fast, guys like Gladiator and SS enter hyperspace when they cross the galaxy in seconds. If they are in hyperspace, they can't be throwing punches while they're in there. Superman, on the other hand, is in normal space when he's running or flying super fast. So if he can move his legs that fast, he can throw a punch that fast.

Originally posted by biensalsa
This will be true for Marvel U, Not for DC U their rules of physics are different.

Even in the DC U, I would say the same rule applies, even if it is a accomplished via the Speed Force. The Speed Force is a vaguely defined extra dimensional energy, presumably - and ideally - in order to rectify the two concepts the dimension the Speed Force comes from would be the same that people tap into when they hit FTL and enter "Hyper Space." It's not super important though, it is all just a means to circumvent to laws of physics and still maintains some sort of order.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
As far as I know, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but to travel across space really fast, guys like Gladiator and SS enter hyperspace when they cross the galaxy in seconds. If they are in hyperspace, they can't be throwing punches while they're in there. Superman, on the other hand, is in normal space when he's running or flying super fast. So if he can move his legs that fast, he can throw a punch that fast.
Yeah, that's true.

DC and Marvel very rarely make universe-wide rules about how bullshit like FTL travel works, and what rules they do make they also inevitably break.

These things should be analyzed on a character-by-character basis

Originally posted by Existere
DC and Marvel very rarely make universe-wide rules about how bullshit like FTL travel works, and what rules they do make they also inevitably break.

These things should be analyzed on a character-by-character basis

Agree

Originally posted by Existere
DC and Marvel very rarely make universe-wide rules about how bullshit like FTL travel works, and what rules they do make they also inevitably break.

These things should be analyzed on a character-by-character basis

Agree

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
LOL. Wow. Not sure where you get from my post that hyperspace exists in reality. For the record I also don't believe the dark dimension or the phantom zone exist either. Yeah, in the REAL WORLD, you need to warp space somehow to travel FTL in theory, but not in comic books.

And you're really trying to use the physics of string theory and quantum mechanics to explain how Superman can rebuild a city FTL? You're just making yourself look stupid. Here's the simple explantion:

Superman is NOT IN HYPERSPACE WHILE HE'S REBUILDING THE CITY. He's simply moving FTL IN OUR DIMENSION. (yeah, that's impossible in our world, but so is demolecularizing people with a thought, and so is a giant guy in a purple helmet eating a planet. So is breathing and talking in space).

Hehe I misread your post, I thought you said that might be how Hyperspace works in the real world. lol

Buddy what you don't seem to understand that accessing a different dimension doesn't mean Superman is out of phase with the ones he normally exist in. You are in four dimensions right now, Superman (or whoever) simple moves into a higher dimension that allows for the possibility of FTL speed. You are combining two different meanings / interpretations of the word dimension into one and they aren't congruent. We aren't talking about an "alternate dimension" like Asgard or Kun'Lun we are talking about dimensions like Length, Width, Height and Time.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So you're arguing that a scene that was told by the same narration at which you're holding your whole argument is wrong when it says "I just wish my mind could catch what this helmet is telling me", is it?
You should catch up with some respect threads regarding marvel cosmic characters, asap. You are again mixing real world science with comic world science.

So you're saying this isn't an example of superman entering hyperspace?

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Strength/lifting/TheEarthStealersa-1.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Strength/lifting/TheEarthStealersb-1.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Strength/lifting/TheEarthStealersc-1.jpg

Did you not read the comic?

His mind couldn't "catch up" because he was disorientated when he hit Earth's gravity and his mind slowed down faster than his body did.

What in those scans do you feel even slightly contradicts what I've said?

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Yeah, maybe in the real world you can't go FTL in normal space. Not in comics. How is Superman rebuilding a city faster than light when he's in hyperspace? Hyperspace is another dimension. To be rebuilding a city in this dimension, one would have to BE IN this dimension.

Superman had the aid of something when he wad building a city so its no telling how or what he used to do that ft...for all we know, he could have possibly gained matter manipulating powers while under a blue sun...who knows.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Did you not read the comic?

His mind couldn't "catch up" because he was disorientated when he hit Earth's gravity and his mind slowed down faster than his body did.

What in those scans do you feel even slightly contradicts what I've said?

Yeah.

Basically, he's still a rookie getting the hang of it.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Did you not read the comic?

His mind couldn't "catch up" because he was disorientated when he hit Earth's gravity and his mind slowed down faster than his body did.

What in those scans do you feel even slightly contradicts what I've said?
Maybe I missed the page while in hurry.
He was explicitly slower than light those days.

Here is what hyperspace is for space travellers in comics.

Surfer travels half a million light years in seconds
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/3076/silversurfervol3006us8.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/281/silversurfervol3007nn1.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
Superman had the aid of something when he wad building a city so its no telling how or what he used to do that ft...for all we know, he could have possibly gained matter manipulating powers while under a blue sun...who knows.
Your denial has reached a new point.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Maybe I missed the page while in hurry.
He was explicitly slower than light those days.

Here is what hyperspace is for space travellers in comics.

Surfer travels half a million light years in seconds
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/3076/silversurfervol3006us8.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/281/silversurfervol3007nn1.jpg

Understandable the motion comic Infinite thing is weird... yet kinda cool.

The fact that he hit Hyperspeed would suggest otherwise.

And those Surfer scans are exactly what I've been talking about, and it's like what CosmicComet just said, you don't need necessarily need FTL reflexes to fly at FTL in space. Silver Surfer picked a direction and started accelerating until he broke the FTL cap and hit Hyper Speed... but his perception of reality didn't increase relative to his speed. In fact it is directly stated in the narrative that everything streaks by them in a blur and they barely have time to comprehend what is happening. Now contrasts that with the Nova example in question. His reaction time and perception was increased at time to match his speed. That is directly stated in the narrative. That's why it's unique among these travel type feats... which is what I've been saying for the past couple of hours.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
You don't need anything greater than human level perceptions to travel at lightspeed in space.

Space is vast, and light is slow as shit in space.

30+ minutes just to travel the distance from jupiter and earth, depending on their respective positions at the time.

So yeah, mere lightspeed wouldn't be difficult to navigate with in the vastness of space. And it would take speeds significantly, significantly greater than lightspeed for someone to require lightspeed+ perception speed to navigate comfortably.

fixed a grammar typo.

You guys are acting like Surfer and others don't have high reaction feats as well...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Understandable the motion comic Infinite thing is weird... yet kinda cool.

The fact that he hit Hyperspeed would suggest otherwise.

And those Surfer scans are exactly what I've been talking about, and it's like what CosmicComet just said, you don't need necessarily need FTL reflexes to fly at FTL in space. Silver Surfer picked a direction and started accelerating until he broke the FTL cap and hit Hyper Speed... but his perception of reality didn't increase relative to his speed. In fact it is directly stated in the narrative that everything streaks by them in a blur and they barely have time to comprehend what is happening. Now contrasts that with the Nova example in question. His reaction time and perception was increased at time to match his speed. That is directly stated in the narrative. That's why it's unique among these travel type feats... which is what I've been saying for the past couple of hours.
Yeah, it was cool.
Nope, he was officially under lightspeed.
It would be just another travel feat, just with an explanation how he navigates through the space. I think I would agree to disagree then. It was good to debate with you.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You guys are acting like Surfer and others don't have high reaction feats as well...
Originally posted by abhilegend
Quiet you.uhuh

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, it was cool.
Nope, he was officially under lightspeed.
It would be just another travel feat, just with an explanation how he navigates through the space. I think I would agree to disagree then. It was good to debate with you.

Agreed.

Officially maybe, but he Spider-man'd that shit and turned the dials up to 11 like a mother lifting a car off a baby. Superheros get shit done, limitations be damned.

But the very reason we don't actually travel feats is because they are devoid of reaction time and perception of the character, and often transpire like the one you posted where they just use insanely fast straight line speed without the ability to react. This Nova example is a completely different beast.

I guess that's that then... we agree to disagree.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, it was cool.
Nope, he was officially under lightspeed.
It would be just another travel feat, just with an explanation how he navigates through the space. I think I would agree to disagree then. It was good to debate with you.

It would be a travel speed that establishes that he has the reflexes to match his travel speed. Which is why its unique.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
It would be a travel speed that establishes that he has the reflexes to match his travel speed. Which is why its unique.
I just agreed to disagree with that POV.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You guys are acting like Surfer and others don't have high reaction feats as well... There argument isn't that characters don't have fast reaction times, just that they don't have the reaction time that they would need to operate at lightspeed/travel speed on a normal basis.

I don't see why not, as they've fought and reacted to things at those speeds

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The Worldmind regulates Nova's reaction time and perception, so that when he doesn't need to react to anything, his mind slows down.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/th_Zone028.jpg

Opposite day?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I don't see why not, as they've fought and reacted to things at those speeds It's kinda like how thor got nailed by Rhino recently. Capable of relatively quick speeds even when not hammer throwing himself ftl. Gets gored by a slow brick.

That's what we call PIS

That's what we call a slow poke.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
That's what we call PIS
You would've to declare probably 95% of thor's history PIS.

Doubt it. He holds back most of the time

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Doubt it. He holds back most of the time
Now I know why sif goes to horse-face so often.
naughty

Well Bill is hung like a... Korbinite

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well Bill is hung like a... Korbinite
Yeah and PG is famous for her.....hands.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Strange > Fate
Witch > Zatanna
Nova > Firestorm


Not sure why people had so many objections to this...?

It's arguable, especially the last one, but I have no objections to that line of thought.

Fate and Strange basically cancel each other out. Fate brings more power to the table on average with the Helm.

And Zatanna and Scarlet also cancel each other out. I feel Z is slightly more powerful, though.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Fate and Strange basically cancel each other out. Fate brings more power to the table on average with the Helm.

And Zatanna and Scarlet also cancel each other out. I feel Z is slightly more powerful, though.

Again, when the OP says "Kent" are we talking about Kent Nelson, or Kent V. Nelson. Because if its the former, he'd solo the entire Marvel team.

Fair enough. Personally, I think some people see HoM/Disassembled Wanda and forget that she has her fair share of good to great feats even before her power level skyrocketed. Her probability control can be downright haxxed, even in her classic days.

Kent Nelson was the only Fate that was with the League, so it's him. Not the one from JSA.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Kent Nelson was the only Fate that was with the League, so it's him. Not the one from JSA.

That's bad news for the Avengers then.

I agree, she was able to mess up one of Dormammu's spells once for instance

What are some of Kent Nelson's Post Crisis feats?

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
That's bad news for the Avengers then.

Not really. Strange could likely break even with him. Both are masters of magic. Both have defeated Spectre like beings. Both have uber spells under their belts.

I've never understood why light speed reaction are required at ftl speed in space. I would have thought long range sensors would be far better at this range from out sun at for times the speed of light you still have to minutes to correct course and at that speed any change in vector with alte the direction greatly. If you have sensors in the light year range and are travelling 365x the speed of light towards an object you still have a day to change direction even if the sensor is operating at only one light year and basically a nav computer and sensors get the job done. No need for lightspeed reflexes at all if you sensors are operating at great enough distances even at 1000's of times light speed.

Yeah but I don't think anyone is claiming just FTL movement through interstellar space means FTL reactions.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not sure why people had so many objections to this...?

It's arguable, especially the last one, but I have no objections to that line of thought.

/shrug

They are all close enough that one could argue either way... but at the end of the day someone has to be right... and it's me.

lol srank you try too hard sometimes.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
lol srank you try too hard sometimes.

That's true, I am often complicated on my hardness.

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m24zuc0Zzt1qhq92oo1_400.gif

srank loves me.

now stop posting gifs! youre racking up my phone bill.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yeah but I don't think anyone is claiming just FTL movement through interstellar space means FTL reactions. You'd be surprised at the folks who do...