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Kryptonians Sun god Vs Zeus...
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/27444/1124995-rao1_large.jpg

vs

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/51363/1664731-incredible_hulks__622_005_large.jpg

"I am Rao"

"Say that again"

"Okay. I am Rao. And your ass is toast."

*Rao Incinerates Zeus*

Rao.

What are the feats of rao?

Well he appeared in Sandman and was considered impressively powerful by the Endless IIRC

Originally posted by abhilegend
What are the feats of rao? Creating the universe with a "small fraction" of his power:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11494092_rao1.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11494093_rao2.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11494094_rao3.jpg

I while ago I heard Superman is supposed to be related to him, that true?

Originally posted by Galan007
Creating the universe with a "small fraction" of his power:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11494092_rao1.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11494093_rao2.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11494094_rao3.jpg
Whoa, Superman actually fought someone close in power to rao, cythonna!Originally posted by jalek moye
I while ago I heard Superman is supposed to be related to him, that true?
Yeah, he is a direct descendent of rao confirmed by Cythonna.

So Supes is a DemiGod?

Originally posted by D-Block
So Supes is a DemiGod?
Yeah, most probably.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Whoa, Superman actually fought someone close in power to rao, cythonna!
Yeah, he is a direct descendent of rao confirmed by Cythonna. Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, most probably. explains supes 1 mil.

Didn't Rao create Nightwing and Flamebird? 2 demigods.

Originally posted by Galan007
Creating the universe with a "small fraction" of his power:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11494092_rao1.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11494093_rao2.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11494094_rao3.jpg

So would you say that Rao is responsible for the creation of the DCU or a significant portion of it outside of Krypton or would you take that as a bit of hyperbolic prose? A lot of deities and such get credited with various creation type origins so in my personal opinion it's pretty difficult to sort them out based on such feats alone.

IMO different races view 'The Creator' differently. Kind of like how Galactus is perceived differently by everyone across the universe, etc.

The Kryptonians perceive him as Rao.

Originally posted by Galan007
IMO different races view 'The Creator' differently. Kind of like how Galactus is perceived differently by everyone across the universe, etc.

The Kryptonians perceive him as Rao.

So in your opinion, you view Rao as one in the same with the Presence or an aspect thereof of it? Or just another wouldbe supreme being?

Creating the universe?

The Presence didn't do that?

Or is Rao just what the Kryptonians call the Presence?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
So in your opinion, you view Rao as one in the same with the Presence or an aspect thereof of it? Or just another wouldbe supreme being? IMO what earthlings call "God" the Kryptonians call "Rao".

Actually in the DCU it's a little more complicated than that.

There are different versions of the same events, that are all equally true, just depending on your perspective. So it's possible that Rao created the universe, Synnar created it, Lucifer and Michael created it, etc. And all of these are true, and don't contradict each other. It's like hypertime or some fancy shit.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Actually in the DCU it's a little more complicated than that.

There are different versions of the same events, that are all equally true, just depending on your perspective. So it's possible that Rao created the universe, Synnar created it, Lucifer and Michael created it, etc. And all of these are true, and don't contradict each other. It's like hypertime or some fancy shit.

If Rao is NOT Synnar and Synnar isn't Lucifer/Michael, and neither of them is the Presence, how the hell did what you just type make sense? Because one or all of those creation stories is false.

Zeus doesn't have as many showings as Odin (especially in the fight department) but Rao has even less than that. I'm going with Zeus, at least he's a confirmed Team Wrecker when he wants to be.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Didn't Rao create Nightwing and Flamebird? 2 demigods.

Yes he did, along with The Architect.

It seems like everyone has a "created the universe story", so it's hard to judge Rao's power levels on his creation myth background alone, since there's a lot of creation myths out there.. Ostranders Spectre series was kind of cool like that, in that it had Spectre going to different gods looking for the Presence, and he eventually complained to Zeus "Everyone has their creation myth, but they can't ALL be correct!", to which Zeus cooly replies "Why can't they?"

just like there are 3 deaths. but all the same being? makes sense, i guess.

Originally posted by zopzop
If Rao is NOT Synnar and Synnar isn't Lucifer/Michael, and neither of them is the Presence, how the hell did what you just type make sense? Because one or all of those creation stories is false.
This isn't MU we're talking about. A clone of rao was busting teams of heroes.

Originally posted by zopzop
If Rao is NOT Synnar and Synnar isn't Lucifer/Michael, and neither of them is the Presence, how the hell did what you just type make sense? Because one or all of those creation stories is false.

Don't blame me, that's just what the comics said.

It's abstract cosmic stuff behind the comprehension of our pitiful mortal minds, just accept it and move on.

Originally posted by abhilegend
This isn't MU we're talking about. A clone of rao was busting teams of heroes.

It doesn't have to be the Marvel Universe, it just has to make SOME sense and not contradict.

Zeus himself is a Team Buster so that clone of Rao busting teams doesn't impress me much.

It doesn't make sense to you but that doesn't mean it's not true, it just means you are unable to comprehend it. It's like in quantum physics, a particle can both exist and not exist, and be in more than once place at once.

Originally posted by zopzop
It doesn't have to be the Marvel Universe, it just has to make SOME sense and not contradict.

Zeus himself is a Team Buster so that clone of Rao busting teams doesn't impress me much.
Sandman related stuff rarely make sense. Yeah, the same team buster thor fought for 18 months.

That imperfect Rao clone was basically just a poor man's version with nowhere near his original power

Originally posted by abhilegend
Sandman related stuff rarely make sense. Yeah, the same team buster thor fought for 18 months.

He was playing with Thor and said so on panel. And what has Rao done?

Originally posted by zopzop
He was playing with Thor and said so on panel. And what has Rao done?
For 18 months? Created the universe, a fellow goddess of him who he defeated was considered as strong as pc kryptonians by current superman and bitched him by a backhand.

Originally posted by abhilegend
For 18 months?

Yes.



He didn't create the universe. The only "proof" is a person retelling Kryptonian theology. Nice try.

Didn't that goddess burn to death in the Sun?

Originally posted by abhilegend For 18 months? Created the universe, a fellow goddess of him who he defeated was considered as strong as pc kryptonians by current superman and bitched him by a backhand.

didnt he also create the builder?

Originally posted by zopzop


Yes.



He didn't create the universe. The only "proof" is a person retelling Kryptonian theology. Nice try.

Didn't that goddess burn to death in the Sun?
I doubt that.

You have any proof that its wrong other than your marvel oriented mindscape? That's because she was weakened by imprisonment of very long time and lack of faith from her children. Herc ha to tag team with thing to save zeus from titans once.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I doubt that.

Don't doubt, he all but stated it on panel. He didn't want to kill Thor just teach him a lesson.



The "proof" is that there are at least 3 other creation stories out there in DC, with Synnar being the most obvious.

Weakened by imprisonment and lack of faith? Marvel Gods don't have that problem, at least not the Skyfathers. More proof Zeus wins this.

Yeah, and all of those stories are simultaneously true, due to funky cosmic shit. This has been stated in canon. Get over it.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yeah, and all of those stories are simultaneously true, due to funky cosmic shit. This has been stated in canon. Get over it.

What "has been stated as canon"? Be more specific. The multiple contradicting creation stories? Or Rao being acknowledged as the creator of the universe?

Anyone else find it funny zopzop is arguing against hyberbole when he has a Chaos King sig and avatar?

Originally posted by zopzop


Don't doubt, he all but stated it on panel. He didn't want to kill Thor just teach him a lesson.



The "proof" is that there are at least 3 other creation stories out there in DC, with Synnar being the most obvious.

Weakened by imprisonment and lack of faith? Marvel Gods don't have that problem, at least not the Skyfathers. More proof Zeus wins this.
Played with him for 18 months? That's weaksauce. No, I just re-read TLGK, she was weakened by her fight with rao. There are multiple origins in DC and they are all correct. That's why I called your mind "a marvel universe mindscape". You didn't recall his defeat by titan where herc and thing had to save him. Herc also beat him once IIRC.

Zeus wins.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Anyone else find it funny zopzop is arguing against hyberbole when he has a Chaos King sig and avatar?
Yeah.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Anyone else find it funny zopzop is arguing against hyberbole when he has a Chaos King sig and avatar?

Reading comprehension fail on your part. But carry on.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Played with him for 18 months? That's weaksauce.
I'll provide the scan if you want.



When did Herc beat Zeus. I KNOW you aren't referring to the time Zeus abducted the Avengers to Olympus to judge them for Herc's near death beatdown by the Wrecking Crew and friends. Because if that's the incident you have in mind, you're wrong.

PS when did Herc team with Thing to save Zeus from the Titans? I'm drawing a blank on that one.

I guess he meant Herc teaming with the Hulk to save Zeus. I'm hoping that's what he is talking about.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Sandman related stuff rarely make sense. Yeah, the same team buster thor fought for 18 months.

A number was never given and I have never understood why people like to claim that when Thor himself disputed the claim.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/8c4a7352803586



Originally posted by abhilegend
Herc also beat him once IIRC.

I know what your talking about that's not cannon Zues would do to Herc what he did the last time one-shot him and then proceed to depower him.

Originally posted by zopzop
Reading comprehension fail on your part. But carry on.

No I understand, even in the Rao vs. Odin thread you specifically made mention a few times that claims should not be held high in regard, yet on more then one occasion you accept the fact Chaos King destroyed the mutliverse, even though it was never shown and was also refered to him destroying just the universe in the same story. So where do you draw the line then? I digress...

Not a big deal

Originally posted by zopzop

I'll provide the scan if you want.



When did Herc beat Zeus. I KNOW you aren't referring to the time Zeus abducted the Avengers to Olympus to judge them for Herc's near death beatdown by the Wrecking Crew and friends. Because if that's the incident you have in mind, you're wrong.

PS when did Herc team with Thing to save Zeus from the Titans? I'm drawing a blank on that one.
I've seen it. Still a very weak showing for a skyfather.
Oh, it was a future story. My bad. Go here, I can't access my scans from my phone.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=360625&pagenumber=8#post6200897

Originally posted by zopzop




PS when did Herc team with Thing to save Zeus from the Titans? I'm drawing a blank on that one.

He is talking about Hulk vs Hercules when titans collide it was Hulk he team up with to fight the Titans pretty bad showing for Zeus was written by Pak but this before he seemingly took a shine to the Olympian and actually wrote him properly.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech
He is talking about Hulk vs Hercules when titans collide it was Hulk he team up with to fight the Titans pretty bad showing for Zeus was written by Pak but this before he seemingly took a shine to the Olympian and actually wrote him properly.

Yeah, I was just about to post this. That's why I said he is getting his stuff confused. It was Hulk, not thing and I don't think it was a bad showing since Zeus was weakened because of Chaos King.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech
He is talking about Hulk vs Hercules when titans collide it was Hulk he team up with to fight the Titans pretty bad showing for Zeus was written by Pak but this before he seemingly took a shine to the Olympian and actually wrote him properly.
Not that one. Its an old team up issue.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Not that one. Its an old team up issue.

Ah I know what you mean I saw a scan of it Zeus was bound to a pole with Hercules and Thing arriving but I don't really knowthe context or what happened in the issue.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I've seen it. Still a very weak showing for a skyfather.
Oh, it was a future story. My bad. Go here, I can't access my scans from my phone.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=360625&pagenumber=8#post6200897

"Possible future" and hence non canon in terms of 616 Zeus.

Originally posted by zopzop
"Possible future" and hence non canon in terms of 616 Zeus.
That team up wasn't in future, was it?

Originally posted by zopzop
What "has been stated as canon"? Be more specific. The multiple contradicting creation stories? Or Rao being acknowledged as the creator of the universe?

Both. DC cosmology is wacky.

Originally posted by -K-M-
No I understand, even in the Rao vs. Odin thread you specifically made mention a few times that claims should not be held high in regard, yet on more then one occasion you accept the fact Chaos King destroyed the mutliverse, even though it was never shown and was also refered to him destroying just the universe in the same story. So where do you draw the line then? I digress...

Not a big deal

Actually it is a big deal. Asmodeus Cho stated it on panel and the word multiverse was thrown around back and forth with universe. The writing was absolute garbage. So it's not clear either way whether it was multivers or 'merely' universe but there are good arguments for both sides. IMHO Igniz's Respect Thread sealed the deal (for the multiverse argument) with the explanation of the what the Continuum Universe was and the scan of the Watcher's narration of the events.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Both. DC cosmology is wacky.

So you got confirmation that Rao is the creator god of the DC universe (not the retelling of Kryptonian theology pics)? Scans?

Originally posted by abhilegend
That team up wasn't in future, was it?
EDIT

The Thing/Hercules Team up was what you were referring to? Is that story even 'real'? Thing was telling the kids bedtime stories or something. Anyone have the full issue to confirm?

Originally posted by zopzop
Actually it is a big deal. Asmodeus Cho stated it on panel and the word multiverse was thrown around back and forth with universe. The writing was absolute garbage. So it's not clear either way whether it was multivers or 'merely' universe but there are good arguments for both sides. IMHO Igniz's Respect Thread sealed the deal (for the multiverse argument) with the explanation of the what the Continuum Universe was and the scan of the Watcher's narration of the events.

Saw it and still was not convinced it was a multiverse, and a lot of people still don't feel that way either. *shrugs*

Hercules even with his GOD powers refered to it as a universe. Also the fact the 616 universe is in fact a multiverse which was even shown during Chaos War with the Ck going into the different universes and dimensions of the Gods. So as I said, your going by statements as it certainly didn't show the multiverse being destroyed.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Saw it and still was not convinced it was a multiverse, and a lot of people still don't feel that way either. *shrugs*

Hercules even with his GOD powers refered to it as a universe. Also the fact the 616 universe is in fact a multiverse which was even shown during Chaos War with the Ck going into the different universes and dimensions of the Gods. So as I said, your going by statements as it certainly didn't show the multiverse being destroyed.

Like I said, there's good arguments for BOTH sides of the multiverse/universe camp. It has nothing to do with hyperbole, it's just sh|tty writing.

Originally posted by zopzop
it's just sh|tty writing.

That it was, shame as I had high hopes for the series.

He's one of the many creators.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
He's one of the many creators.

wallbash

Sorry dude, that's just the way it works.

Like Schrodinger's universe creator.

Originally posted by zopzop
EDIT

The Thing/Hercules Team up was what you were referring to? Is that story even 'real'? Thing was telling the kids bedtime stories or something. Anyone have the full issue to confirm?
Yeah, its canon AFAIK.

Originally posted by zopzop
wallbash
Blame DC.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, its canon AFAIK.

Was it? He even referred to it as a fairy tale.

Originally posted by zopzop
Was it? He even referred to it as a fairy tale.
Nope, I did't see anything that means it was just a story. Here is some info on one of the villains in the story

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/manduumtio.htm

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nope, I did't see anything that means it was just a story. Here is some info on one of the villains in the story

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/manduumtio.htm

The very first scan in that series, Thing tells the kids to be quiet because he's the one telling the fairy tale.

Originally posted by zopzop
The very first scan in that series, Thing tells the kids to be quiet because he's the one telling the fairy tale.
We don't see anything that refers to this being just a story. That was a tool of storytelling back then. Several comics in that series begun with that kind of "Thing tells the stories" type of setup.

I do not know how this still stands with Rao's theology but here are a few scans

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/RAO/th_rao1-1.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/RAO/th_MOS126RAOISTHEFATHEROFTHEGODS.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/RAO/th_rao.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/RAO/th_MOS126ZEUSHATESRAO.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/RAO/th_sboma-18.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/RAO/th_sboma-54.jpg,

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/RAO/th_superlastgod_20.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/RAO/th_superlastgod_21.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/RAO/th_superlastgod_22.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/RAO/th_superlastgod_23.jpg

And here balling with the Endless

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/RAO/th_The_Sandman_-_Endless_Nights_p063-Dream.jpg

Cool scans.

Basically it boils down to if you take the various statements made on Rao's behalf at face value and feel it's superior to Marvel's Zeus.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Cool scans.

Basically it boils down to if you take the various statements made on Rao's behalf at face value and feel it's superior to Marvel's Zeus.

Not really, I'm just sharing the information. No need to impersonate your avatar so much

Originally posted by biensalsa
Not really, I'm just sharing the information. No need to impersonate your avatar so much

Not really...what?

I said the scans are cool; they are. All I'm saying is that as far as Rao is concerned, it's open to interpretation depending on how you view Rao as opposed to someone like Marvel Zeus.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not really...what?

I said the scans are cool; they are. All I'm saying is that as far as Rao is concerned, it's open to interpretation depending on how you view Rao as opposed to someone like Marvel Zeus.

I thought you were trying to say that I will take a decision based on those scans.

I don't think there is enough evidence for Rao, so I can't pick a winner.

Originally posted by biensalsa
I thought you were trying to say that I will take a decision based on those scans.

I don't think there is enough evidence for Rao, so I can't pick a winner.

Oh, no, not at all.

Personally as far as Rao goes against Zeus (and Odin in the other thread), him being a creator type deity is cool and it shows his level of influence (especially if he really is responsible for the spawn of DC Earth's pantheons) but every pantheon has a creator type deity responsible for life across the cosmos so it's a bit difficult to sift through what would just be lore/legend for said pantheons and what actually happened. According to the Asgardians, they invented humanity and the nine realms and everything else in between, but the Olympians would disagree with that.

So, yeah, it's something worth thinking about either way. Of that I think most people will agree.

if you had to bet money, who would you choose, jake?

Eh, I don't know. Possibly Rao if the hype is to be taken at face value - which is something that tends to be an issue when dealing with god type characters and theology in general - but I don't think it would be a stomp.

Cythonna, a being who battled Rao, would get beat up by Marvel's Zeus, imo.

The Sword of Superman comic would fit in quite nicely then^^.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Don't blame me, that's just what the comics said.

It's abstract cosmic stuff behind the comprehension of our pitiful mortal minds, just accept it and move on.



DC is full of extremely abstract ideas, paradoxes, etc. that some people are way too hesitant to accept.

You don't need to connect all the dots. All the pieces don't need to fit. It's impossible for mortal minds to comprehend and that's kind of the point.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Played with him for 18 months? That's weaksauce. No, I just re-read TLGK, she was weakened by her fight with rao. There are multiple origins in DC and they are all correct. That's why I called your mind "a marvel universe mindscape". You didn't recall his defeat by titan where herc and thing had to save him. Herc also beat him once IIRC. It's true Zeus stated as much, and I think even defeated Thor easily when he decided to stop, I could be wrong on that last point though.

Originally posted by Newjak
It's true Zeus stated as much, and I think even defeated Thor easily when he decided to stop, I could be wrong on that last point though.

Yeah, exactly.

Marvel put a lot more work into their cosmic hierarchy, so the pieces fit better.

But I appreciate DC's because it's more like real life creationism.. Lots of competing ideas, all of them certain they're the one answer.

And on that note I'll plug John Ostranders Spectre one more time, because his run is all about exploring the concept..

Demi god: "Well, how do you know my god didn't create the universe?"

Spectre: "Because I am an aspect of god!"

Demi god: "Aren't we all?"

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Eh, I don't know. Possibly Rao if the hype is to be taken at face value - which is something that tends to be an issue when dealing with god type characters and theology in general - but I don't think it would be a stomp.

Cythonna, a being who battled Rao, would get beat up by Marvel's Zeus, imo.

I just have to point something here Jake

Cyntonna's casual back hand was as strong as a Pocket verse Kryptonian's punch and pocket verse Kryptonians are intended to be as powerful as PC Kryptonians

Originally posted by biensalsa
I just have to point something here Jake

Cyntonna's casual back hand was as strong as a Pocket verse Kryptonian's punch and pocket verse Kryptonians are intended to be as powerful as PC Kryptonians

The ease in which she originally dispatched Superman is something that I find to be well within Zeus' power to do so.

Originally posted by cdtm
Marvel put a lot more work into their cosmic hierarchy, so the pieces fit better.

I strongly disagree. I think DC's cosmic hierarchy is ridiculously abstract and full of paradoxes quite intentionally.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The ease in which she originally dispatched Superman is something that I find to be well within Zeus' power to do so.

Interesting. This could probably be a nice vs Forum

MU Zeus vs PC Superman punching contest and they should use Hulk as the punching bag