Marvel Villains vs Superman Villains

Brockalizer

Originally posted by Prep-Man
This is how I see the matchups:

Magento vs Parasite
Darkseid vs Thanos
Gog vs Apoc
SBP vs Loki
Zod vs Ultron
Doomsday vs Dr. Doom

Pretty even, but Doomsday and Prime tip the scales. Magento will have a hard time with Parasite as well. IMO Doomsday is the biggest X factor. They may not be able to kill him but they could probably neutralize him long enough for a forum win. Loki and Prime is a good match up. Gog would spank Apoc, but I don't see Zod beating Ultron. On a side note I wouldn't consider Doomsday a villain. he lacks the motives of a true villain. He just does what he was bred to do, not because of malice or a desire to do evil.

Brockalizer

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Are we talking about the Gog that killed all those Supermen? I always forget. That Gog could likely take many of Marvels. But didn't he kill them by exploiting his kryptonite weakness and not physical prowess? The Marvel team doesn't have anyone with a similarly exploitable weakness. I think Marvels best chance would be to fight as a team and not devolve into one one one match-ups.

Prep-Man

If it's the Gog that I'm thinking of, he had pretty much all the quintessence power. And blew a hole though Mxy. It took an entire team of heroes to take him down.

Odekahn

Originally posted by Brockalizer
IMO Doomsday is the biggest X factor. They may not be able to kill him but they could probably neutralize him long enough for a forum win. Loki and Prime is a good match up. Gog would spank Apoc, but I don't see Zod beating Ultron. On a side note I wouldn't consider Doomsday a villain. he lacks the motives of a true villain. He just does what he was bred to do, not because of malice or a desire to do evil.

Doomsday does desire evil though. He desires destruction and eliminating life. He killed a bird in the palm of his hand and a random deer just for the kicks.

Oh and it's the first Gog with a portion of the Quintessence power. Honestly, any other version of him would have been too powerful and I don't think this would have been a very fair fight.

Brockalizer

Originally posted by Odekahn
Doomsday does desire evil though. He desires destruction and eliminating life. He killed a bird in the palm of his hand and a random deer just for the kicks.

Oh and it's the first Gog with a portion of the Quintessence power. Honestly, any other version of him would have been too powerful and I don't think this would have been a very fair fight. But he doesn't go out of his way to kill. He kills anything that he thinks is a threat to his survival. Which is pretty much anything unlucky enough to cross his path. Birds included. IMO he's no more malicious than Galactus. They both kill to survive not because "it's fun".

Sin I AM

who is suppose to be marvels answer for Gog?

Odekahn

Originally posted by Brockalizer
But he doesn't go out of his way to kill. He kills anything that he thinks is a threat to his survival. Which is pretty much anything unlucky enough to cross his path. Birds included. IMO he's no more malicious than Galactus. They both kill to survive not because "it's fun".

http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/8/81/Doomsday-Canary.jpg

He did this and laughed about it. C'mon, lol. He's pure evil. Even the telepaths said he was filled with nothing but rage. Galactus isn't like that.

Brockalizer

Originally posted by Odekahn
http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/8/81/Doomsday-Canary.jpg

He did this and laughed about it. C'mon, lol. He's pure evil. Even the telepaths said he was filled with nothing but rage. Galactus isn't like that. Rage is not evil otherwise the Hulk and Wolverine would be villains. Doomsday is more like a wild animal. When a lion kills another lion that trespasses onto it's territory it isn't killing out of evil or spite it's just acting the way nature intended. Several different animals kill for sport rather than feeding or securing a mate that doesn't make them evil. That bird would have been fine if he'd have just kept flying. It probably could've even flew by and shat on Doomsday's head without consequence. When he first fought Superman and the JLA he continued about his business rather than sticking around to kill Mitch's family. Someone truly evil, such as Apocalypse would've killed them all.

Brockalizer

Originally posted by Sin I AM
who is suppose to be marvels answer for Gog? Gog's quintessence is a fraction of the powers of five Gods, correct? Team Marvel has an actual God, as well as an Eternal that can make Abstracts wet themselves.

Prep-Man

I think it was still powerful enough to rip a hole through mxy. And Mxy is pretty much above everyone on Marvel's side.

Bouboumaster

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I think it was still powerful enough to rip a hole through mxy. And Mxy is pretty much above everyone on Marvel's side.

But Thanos

psycho gundam

Originally posted by Brockalizer
Rage is not evil otherwise the Hulk and Wolverine would be villains. Doomsday is more like a wild animal. When a lion kills another lion that trespasses onto it's territory it isn't killing out of evil or spite it's just acting the way nature intended. http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulkvsdeer.jpg
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulkvsdeer2.jpg

Prep-Man

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
But Thanos

Thanos would get crushed by Gog at full power.

abhilegend

Originally posted by psycho gundam
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulkvsdeer.jpg
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/hulkvsdeer2.jpg
So this means he beats wolverine finally.131

Bouboumaster

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Thanos would get crushed by Gog at full power.

No.

Only Thanos can defeat Thanos.

If he seems beaten, it was a Thanosi.

Prep-Man

LOL! Riiight.

Odekahn

Doomsday sure did do a lot of laughing for him not to enjoy killing...

Bouboumaster

Originally posted by Prep-Man
LOL! Riiight.

I'm glad that we both agree on that matter.

Prep-Man

Happy you agree. stick out tongue

Sin I AM

Originally posted by Brockalizer
Gog's quintessence is a fraction of the powers of five Gods, correct? Team Marvel has an actual God, as well as an Eternal that can make Abstracts wet themselves.

Your right but their still no match for Gog

Brockalizer

Originally posted by Odekahn
Doomsday sure did do a lot of laughing for him not to enjoy killing... I've seen a retard laugh after killing a gold fish. That doesn't mean he is evil. Doomsday acts on pure instinct not out of a conscious desire to do evil. Doomsday doesn't discriminate between who he kills like Apocalypse or Mongul. When Doomsday kills it is because of a genetic predisposition to survive at all costs, not to pursue a more complex agenda.

Odekahn

Originally posted by Brockalizer
I've seen a retard laugh after killing a gold fish. That doesn't mean he is evil. Doomsday acts on pure instinct not out of a conscious desire to do evil. Doomsday doesn't discriminate between who he kills like Apocalypse or Mongul. When Doomsday kills it is because of a genetic predisposition to survive at all costs, not to pursue a more complex agenda.

The retard did an evil thing (by some people's standards), and I agree that doesn't make him "evil". Just like someone who tells a lie isn't automatically a liar. It's the continuation of said actions that begin to define an individual or character. Doomsday is rage. He gets enjoyment out of killing, and that's all he was created to do. Granted, there's no higher motive there other than to kill (he doesn't want to rule the world or anything like that) but to continually murder is evil. It doesn't matter how he sees it anymore than the mother who murders her child because "God told her too." It's evil, lol.

Sr J-Bieb

Loki turns team 2 into snow, and then team 1 has a big snowball fight

Malkaedus

Doomsday's nature makes him want to break anything with a pulse. Innocent, guilty, adult, child, animal, or otherwise.

Ignorance is no excuse. If you do evil things, you are evil. You are what you do. Almost no one believes what they do is wrong.

SamZED

Originally posted by Odekahn
You're funny. Just wait till Quan sees this thread.

Odekahn

Originally posted by SamZED
Just wait till Quan sees this thread.

I'm counting the seconds with anticipation...

Brockalizer

Originally posted by Odekahn
The retard did an evil thing (by some people's standards), and I agree that doesn't make him "evil". Just like someone who tells a lie isn't automatically a liar. It's the continuation of said actions that begin to define an individual or character. Doomsday is rage. He gets enjoyment out of killing, and that's all he was created to do. Granted, there's no higher motive there other than to kill (he doesn't want to rule the world or anything like that) but to continually murder is evil. It doesn't matter how he sees it anymore than the mother who murders her child because "God told her too." It's evil, lol. It takes more than doing evil deeds to qualify as evil in my opinion, there also needs to be a motivation to do evil. Like you pointed out in the retard analogy, simply doing something that some people would consider evil, like a retard laughing at a dead gold fish, doesn't qualify as evil because there is a lack of evil intent. Doomsday is sort of an amalgam of a wild animal and a retarded child. They both do things that normal people might consider evil i.e killing for pleasure rather than sustenance or lack a sense of right or wrong. If a woman murders her child because she'd like to go out and party like Casey Anthony did, that is evil. If a woman kills her child because "God made her do it", the act itself may qualify as evil, but the woman is mentally ill. Doomsday kills because of a biological imperative, much like a wild animal. Now other versions of Doomsday you would be exactly right, Gog Wars Doomsday for example would qualify as evil on the grounds that his intelligence had evolved to the point where he could make a moral judgement. HP Doomsday on the other hand lacks that higher level of thinking.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Brockalizer
It takes more than doing evil deeds to qualify as evil in my opinion, there also needs to be a motivation to do evil. Like you pointed out in the retard analogy, simply doing something that some people would consider evil, like a retard laughing at a dead gold fish, doesn't qualify as evil because there is a lack of evil intent. Doomsday is sort of an amalgam of a wild animal and a retarded child. They both do things that normal people might consider evil i.e killing for pleasure rather than sustenance or lack a sense of right or wrong. If a woman murders her child because she'd like to go out and party like Casey Anthony did, that is evil. If a woman kills her child because "God made her do it", the act itself may qualify as evil, but the woman is mentally ill. Doomsday kills because of a biological imperative, much like a wild animal. Now other versions of Doomsday you would be exactly right, Gog Wars Doomsday for example would qualify as evil on the grounds that his intelligence had evolved to the point where he could make a moral judgement. HP Doomsday on the other hand lacks that higher level of thinking.

If anything, if memory serves me, he was after Superman because of his Kryptonian heritage, and was getting revenge for what Bertron did to him...

Odekahn

Originally posted by Brockalizer
It takes more than doing evil deeds to qualify as evil in my opinion, there also needs to be a motivation to do evil. Like you pointed out in the retard analogy, simply doing something that some people would consider evil, like a retard laughing at a dead gold fish, doesn't qualify as evil because there is a lack of evil intent. Doomsday is sort of an amalgam of a wild animal and a retarded child. They both do things that normal people might consider evil i.e killing for pleasure rather than sustenance or lack a sense of right or wrong. If a woman murders her child because she'd like to go out and party like Casey Anthony did, that is evil. If a woman kills her child because "God made her do it", the act itself may qualify as evil, but the woman is mentally ill. Doomsday kills because of a biological imperative, much like a wild animal. Now other versions of Doomsday you would be exactly right, Gog Wars Doomsday for example would qualify as evil on the grounds that his intelligence had evolved to the point where he could make a moral judgement. HP Doomsday on the other hand lacks that higher level of thinking.

But it's not just a single act. It's the continual actions that define someone. I wouldn't call someone a liar who has told a lie before, but I would call someone a liar if they made a habit of it.

Would you or would you not agree that Doomsday's nature is to destroy and kill? He's not this timid beast who is just trying to defend himself against the little birdy that landed on his hand. He is filled with rage, and his nature is that of destruction and evil. If nothing else, his nature defines him. He's evil.

I'm guessing you would also say that Michael Myers isn't evil...

Brockalizer

Originally posted by Odekahn
But it's not just a single act. It's the continual actions that define someone. I wouldn't call someone a liar who has told a lie before, but I would call someone a liar if they made a habit of it.

Would you or would you not agree that Doomsday's nature is to destroy and kill? He's not this timid beast who is just trying to defend himself against the little birdy that landed on his hand. He is filled with rage, and his nature is that of destruction and evil. If nothing else, his nature defines him. He's evil.

I'm guessing you would also say that Michael Myers isn't evil... Killing because of a genetic predisposition is not the same as killing for kicks. Timidity is irrelevant if you are doing exactly what you were born to do. For Doomsday killing is not a choice, more like a reflex. Several creatures are highly aggressive, that still doesn't qualify as evil.

Brockalizer

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If anything, if memory serves me, he was after Superman because of his Kryptonian heritage, and was getting revenge for what Bertron did to him... He was drawn to Superman because he was created on Krypton. In Doomsday's mind Kryptonians represent a more direct threat to his existence than other creatures, which he would still view as a threat. It's that threat level that leads hims to react more aggressively towards Kryptonians.

Odekahn

Originally posted by Brockalizer
Killing because of a genetic predisposition is not the same as killing for kicks. Timidity is irrelevant if you are doing exactly what you were born to do. For Doomsday killing is not a choice, more like a reflex. Several creatures are highly aggressive, that still doesn't qualify as evil.

But here's the thing... He's not killing because he views them as a threat. He's filled with pure rage and he is shown enjoying killing. He is absolutely killing for kicks.

Timidity is relevant due the fact that he's not killing out of fear or defense of himself, he's killing to kill. He's not shying away from anything, he's seeking out places to cause even more destruction. And I don't know about viewing Kryptonians as more of a threat, it's more the fact that he remembers and hates them. Back to the whole rage thing...

And killing innocents over and over again out of rage + finding enjoyment out of it + it being the only thing you care about = evil.

Brockalizer

Originally posted by Odekahn
But here's the thing... He's not killing because he views them as a threat. He's filled with pure rage and he is shown enjoying killing. He is absolutely killing for kicks.

Timidity is relevant due the fact that he's not killing out of fear or defense of himself, he's killing to kill. He's not shying away from anything, he's seeking out places to cause even more destruction. And I don't know about viewing Kryptonians as more of a threat, it's more the fact that he remembers and hates them. Back to the whole rage thing...

And killing innocents over and over again out of rage + finding enjoyment out of it + it being the only thing you care about = evil. The difference between someone like Doomsday going from place to place leaving death and destruction in his wake and someone like Apacalypse or Mongul is conscious choice. The latter two villains, conciously choose to commit evil acts to pursue their own evil agendas. Whether or not they personally believe that they are evil is irrellevant. They use evil as a means to an end. Doomsday is different. For him there is no choice and his only agenda is "survival at all costs". Survival is not an evil motivation. Look at it this way in Alien vs Predator, the Predator has a higher level of intelligence and kills for sport rather than survival. He would qualify as evil. The Alien, although they kill anyone they encounter only do so in order to perpetuate their species, just like any animal would. This would be parasitism rather than evil. For, me the fact that Doomsday gets a perverse pleasure out of killing isn't enough to classify him as evil. As I've stated earlier, several wild animals get pleasure out of killing lower weaker life forms. The fact that they lack the capacity for making moral decisions is what keeps them from being evil. If Doomsday killed to cheer himself up, that would be different.

Odekahn

Originally posted by Brockalizer
The difference between someone like Doomsday going from place to place leaving death and destruction in his wake and someone like Apacalypse or Mongul is conscious choice. The latter two villains, conciously choose to commit evil acts to pursue their own evil agendas. Whether or not they personally believe that they are evil is irrellevant. They use evil as a means to an end. Doomsday is different. For him there is no choice and his only agenda is "survival at all costs". Survival is not an evil motivation. Look at it this way in Alien vs Predator, the Predator has a higher level of intelligence and kills for sport rather than survival. He would qualify as evil. The Alien, although they kill anyone they encounter only do so in order to perpetuate their species, just like any animal would. This would be parasitism rather than evil. For, me the fact that Doomsday gets a perverse pleasure out of killing isn't enough to classify him as evil. As I've stated earlier, several wild animals get pleasure out of killing lower weaker life forms. The fact that they lack the capacity for making moral decisions is what keeps them from being evil. If Doomsday killed to cheer himself up, that would be different.

You basically just said that Doomsday isn't evil because he doesn't know any better. He's not evil because he doesn't have an evil agenda. He's not making a conscious choice. Very rarely are you going to find any character who believes themselves to be evil. Apocalypse believes he's doing what's right, just as Ras Al Ghul believes that what he's doing is right. But they're still evil. There's no way to dance around this... a conscious choice doesn't matter, evil is still evil regardless of how the one commiting the evil views themselves and their actions. Even if he doesn't know that what he's doing is evil, he's still doing it, getting enjoyment out of it, and it's his nature to do so. He has a nature of rage, murder, and destruction. It's an evil nature.

He's not just trying to survive. He's destroying and killing everything in his path. The fact that he gets enjoyment out of it DOES matter because it shows that he's not doing it for self-defense or simply to "survive".

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, murders like a duck... It's a duck no matter if it believes itself to be a duck or not.

Brockalizer

Originally posted by Odekahn
You basically just said that Doomsday isn't evil because he doesn't know any better. He's not evil because he doesn't have an evil agenda. He's not making a conscious choice. Very rarely are you going to find any character who believes themselves to be evil. Apocalypse believes he's doing what's right, just as Ras Al Ghul believes that what he's doing is right. But they're still evil. There's no way to dance around this... a conscious choice doesn't matter, evil is still evil regardless of how the one commiting the evil views themselves and their actions. Even if he doesn't know that what he's doing is evil, he's still doing it, getting enjoyment out of it, and it's his nature to do so. He has a nature of rage, murder, and destruction. It's an evil nature.

He's not just trying to survive. He's destroying and killing everything in his path. The fact that he gets enjoyment out of it DOES matter because it shows that he's not doing it for self-defense or simply to "survive".

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, murders like a duck... It's a duck no matter if it believes itself to be a duck or not. I think that your definition of evil is overly broad. If I'm understanding you correctly that would also classify many superheroes as evil: Silver Surfer and Punisher for example. They commit acts of evil doing what they believe is right. One could even expand it further to argue that Batman is evil because he has chosen to allow the Joker to live to kill another day. I honestly don't believe that Doomsday is no more evil than a retarded child. They all have the capacity of to commit evil acts but either lack the capacity to know that it is wrong. The before mentioned villains may not believe that what they are doing is evil, but they are aware of the concepts of right and wrong. Think as Bertron as Michael Vick and Doomsday as one of the pitbulls. If that pitbull got out it would kill or at least try to kill the first man, woman, or child it encountered, and also feel good about doing so and possibly even expect a reward. Is that pitbull evil for doing what it's master bred it to do?

Odekahn

Originally posted by Brockalizer
I think that your definition of evil is overly broad. If I'm understanding you correctly that would also classify many superheroes as evil: Silver Surfer and Punisher for example. They commit acts of evil doing what they believe is right. One could even expand it further to argue that Batman is evil because he has chosen to allow the Joker to live to kill another day.

No. As I've already stated earlier, commiting an evil doesn't make an individual evil. It's the continual actions that define an individual. Maybe Batman or Surfer made the wrong choice, but they also do a lot of good.

Does the retard make a habit of going on mass killing sprees?

And yet they are doing what they believe is the right thing. Being unaware of the concept of right and wrong doesn't make an individual not evil. Evil isn't a choice, it's a description.

I would actually argue that the dogs would attack people because they are afraid. I would also argue that cujo was an evil dog. Again, it's not a choice, it's a description. Doomsday does nothing but kill and destroy. That's all. He doesn't do good and mess up every now and then. He's rage filled and destroys. He's evil. I see the point you're trying to make but there's no way around the fact that it's what he is.

Oh, and by the same token a child can be raised to be evil. Just because it's how they were made/molded/created/etc. to be doesn't change what they are.

Brockalizer

Originally posted by Odekahn
No. As I've already stated earlier, commiting an evil doesn't make an individual evil. It's the continual actions that define an individual. Maybe Batman or Surfer made the wrong choice, but they also do a lot of good. So planetary genocide is okay is you "do some good along the way"? What about The Punisher? He is a serial murderer, but it's not evil if you only kill bad people?

Originally posted by Odekahn

Does the retard make a habit of going on mass killing sprees?

If no one is around to stop him, then theoretically yes.

Originally posted by Odekahn

And yet they are doing what they believe is the right thing. Being unaware of the concept of right and wrong doesn't make an individual not evil. Evil isn't a choice, it's a description.
Ah ha, there in lies the key to our difference. You define evil as something used to describe someone. I am using it in the context of a psychological mindset. So technically we're both right.

PillarofOsiris

Epic stomp in favor of team 2.

Tony Stark

Originally posted by Brockalizer
Again...I'm probably in the minority but I'm going with Team Marvel. IMO Darkseids OE won't affect Thanos (I've illustrated why in another thread) and I don't see any one else being much of a threat to the Mad Titan, who could easily hold his own against anyone of the Superman Villains.

yes

Prep-Man

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Epic stomp in favor of team 2.

Blight

Brockalizer. You went from debating about Doomsday being a True Villain (which he is) to being Evil. Those two aren't mutually exclusive. While it could be argued that Doomsday is not evil (I personally disagree with you), there is no shadow of a doubt that he is a villain... to assume otherwise is almost insane. Galactus (like you said) is not Evil, but he was a villain. Hell, you could argue that joker is nothing more than a bi-product of poor raising, a chemical bath, and the fact that there's a man dressing like a bat roaming the streets, doesn't detain from the fact that he's a villain.