Who is the weakest non-technopath who can defeat...

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TheLordofMurder
Who is the weakest non-technopath that can beat Neo and Agent Smith inside of the Matrix every single time (as in a perfect 10/10)?

The opponent doesnt get any prep, cannot perform any outside manipulation of the Matrix, nor can he/she/it get free from the Matrix and win that way; said opponent must defeat these two while fully immersed inside of the Matrix...

So once again, who is the weakest non-technopath that can beat Neo and Agent Smith every single time in the Matrix under these conditions?

Cogito
Nobody, it's a lame question.

DarkSaint85
Do they know they are in the Matrix, and thus, that they can do whatever they want as long as they could 'free their mind'?

Cogito
They'd still be limited by the rules, which Neo isn't.

Newjak
I'm assuming someone with decent Telepathy skills would be able to use their mind to effect the digital world alot like Astral Battles

Bouboumaster
The top 8 brains from Marvel and Lex Luthor, Mr Terrific, Bruce Wayne and the likes in DC

Mindset
^ I think willpower will have more to do with it than intelligence.

They'd have to truly believe that they could do anything.

Cogito
It doesn't matter how smart you are or how strong your willpower is, there are still rules that can't be broken.

Also telepathy does not exist within the Matrix so that's a moot point.

Mindset
Originally posted by Cogito
It doesn't matter how smart you are or how strong your willpower is, there are still rules that can't be broken.

Also telepathy does not exist within the Matrix so that's a moot point. What rules can't be broken?

The Matrix isn't real, they can do pretty much anything.

Cogito
The rules of the Matrix can be bent, not broken (except by Neo). That was kind of the whole point of the movies?

Mindset
Except these are characters outside of the Matrix universe, there's nothing saying they can't be like or better than Neo.

I understand the point of the movie; the point of the movie doesn't set the rules for what these characters can do.

Neo was a "regular" human being, these people are far from regular.

Cogito
I'm working under the assumption that someone who can stop time or fly or whatever outside of the Matrix would be unable to inside, because the rules wouldn't allow it.

The Matrix is all about the mind, so what would it matter what someone can physically do outside?

DarkSaint85
Doom would win.

With his willpower, his knowlesdge and his unswerving belief that he is always right - I can see him being another One.

As for your question Cogito - I was under the impression that the central premise was that if you could free your mind, you could do the impossible - but there were certain 'truths' that no matter what you tried, you won't be able to do because at the back of your mind, a little voice would cause you to doubt. That's another reason why you were best freed when you were a kid

Now, if you come from a world where you've been flying pretty much your entire life, and you knew it was possible, it shouldn't be too hard to imagine that you could in the MAtrix.

Cogito
As I understand it, "freeing your mind" allows you to bend the rules (e.g. jump really far), but not outright break any rules (e.g. flying, stopping bullets)

Mindset
Originally posted by Cogito
I'm working under the assumption that someone who can stop time or fly or whatever outside of the Matrix would be unable to inside, because the rules wouldn't allow it.

The Matrix is all about the mind, so what would it matter what someone can physically do outside? You missed the point.

For instance, Doom easily resisted PM with his mind.

His mind/willpower is not normal in any stretch.

Cogito
Originally posted by Mindset
You missed the point.

For instance, Doom easily resisted PM with his mind.

His mind/willpower is not normal in any stretch.

I don't understand how willpower is going to rewrite the code of the Matrix? confused

Mindset
The same way everyone else's did in the movie...

Cogito
But in the movies only Neo broke the rules, because only he could...

You're just making shit up to push Doom.

Mindset
Everyone who had powers in the movie were breaking the rules, Neo just did it better.

I'm using Doom as an example, it doesn't even have to be about Doom, nice ad hominem.

Newjak
Originally posted by Cogito
But in the movies only Neo broke the rules, because only he could...

You're just making shit up to push Doom. Actually I thought Morpheus stated that there are some rules you can bend others you can break, implying everyone can break the rules to a degree only Neo had the built mechanisms that allowed him to do it with everything.

Lord Feron
If we are assuming Only neo can do this than well yeah I guess he can't lose but if we are assuming he is just one of the people who are just really good at it then well this is my nomination...

Cypher of the X-Men, this guy has the tools to almost instantly understand how the matrix world works and use it to his advantage.

Sr J-Bieb
Galactus

Mindset
Iron Fist

Sr J-Bieb
That was my first pick, but I wanted to see how far this "Matrix" fad would go in its defense

These threads consist of for no reason at all mind you, that these characters don't imagine themselves to be at their normal levels. Their normal levels, which are so far beyond what anyone in the Matrix has shown.
So, because these characters don't imagine themselves at their normal levels, we have to make up some imaginable power level that we only use so Neo can win.

Instead of just making it a normal fight.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Cogito
Nobody, it's a lame question.

Not at all true; they are both very powerful in the Matrix, but not unbeatable...

Although I absolutely dont think you have to go so high on the totem pole to find someone who can beat these two under the rules stated, but Galactus would win this fight with absolute ease...

I have in mind lesser characters than Galactus that would win the fight as stated; I just want to see if there is someone lesser than what I think would be sufficient to get the job done...

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Do they know they are in the Matrix, and thus, that they can do whatever they want as long as they could 'free their mind'?

No...

None of Neo and Smiths opponents would have fore knowledge of being inside of the Matrix and wouldnt know how it operates...unless if was one of those near all-knowing types...like a very powerful cosmic/abstract being.

JakeTheBank
Captain America.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Mindset
^ I think willpower will have more to do with it than intelligence.

They'd have to truly believe that they could do anything.

This is true...

In addition, regardless of their willpower, they'd all be vulnerable to being reality warped by Neo and Smith as both of them can warp their surroundings and opponents by manipulating Matrix code...

Inside the Matrix, all their opponents would be nothing but Matrix code...

Sr J-Bieb
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
This is true...

In addition, regardless of their willpower, they'd all be vulnerable to being reality warped by Neo and Smith as both of them can warp their surroundings and opponents by manipulating Matrix code...

Inside the Matrix, all their opponents would be nothing but Matrix code... So Galactus would be Matrix Code pretty much

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
So Galactus would be Matrix Code pretty much

Yes, but Galactus would also immediately know exactly what he was facing and could do something about it; he (sans jobbing) is far stronger willed than these two and can reality warp on a scale thats far beyond them as well...

Galactus would instantly seize control of the Matrix (via extreme reality warp) and spite them...

Sr J-Bieb
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Yes, but Galactus would also immediately know exactly what he was facing and could do something about it; he (sans jobbing) is far stronger willed than these two and can reality warp on a scale thats far beyond them as well...

Galactus would instantly seize control of the Matrix (via extreme reality warp) and spite them... What about someone like Odin, Zeus, or Ego

Stoic
Neo and Smith would basically be the Gods of the Matrix. No one outside of a person with more control over the Matrix would ever be a threat, nor would there be anywhere that they could hide.

JakeTheBank
Bravo was basically omnipotent in the realm of Nowhere, a virtual reality in which he literally depowered Captain America of the super soldier serum.

And Steve Rogers' willpower was enough to kick his ass anyway. And Bravo was able to shape the landscape at will and alter its reality.

Cogito
If we assume that comic characters can keep all their powers within the matrix, then any high meta/low herald should be able to win pretty easily.

Personally I don't think that's how the Matrix works. Galactus, in the Matrix, is just a bunch of code. Unless he was coded to be able to break the Matrix (and why would he?), he'd be as useless as Morpheus or any other human from the outside.

Anyways, I don't really care to debate the Matrix because as I said before, it's a lame question.

/shrug

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
What about someone like Odin, Zeus, or Ego

Not sure about those guys; I'm not sure if any of these guys can reality warp...

IMHO, you would need two things to beat Neo and Smith sans being a better technopath than them; a very strong will (Odin, Zeus, and Ego definitely have this) and superior reality warping ability (afterall, sans technopathy, you have to be able to simutaneously "defend" your code while being able to subvert theirs and the Matrix code around you)...


Anyway, the weakest character that I can think of that meets the above criteria is Proteus (the version that doesnt have a weakness to metal of course)...

There are other, lesser, characters that have the strong will part (like Captain America and Doom), but they lack the means to defend their code from these guys and launch a counter attack...

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Cogito
If we assume that comic characters can keep all their powers within the matrix, then any high meta/low herald should be able to win pretty easily.

Personally I don't think that's how the Matrix works. Galactus, in the Matrix, is just a bunch of code. Unless he was coded to be able to break the Matrix (and why would he?), he'd be as useless as Morpheus or any other human from the outside.

Anyways, I don't really care to debate the Matrix because as I said before, it's a lame question.

/shrug

Umm...no...the heralds have no defense to being reality warped while Galactus does.

Mindset
IF would punch the code apart.

Cogito
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Umm...no...the heralds have no defense to being reality warped while Galactus does.
They're all the same within the Matrix to me

Mindset
You are so politically correct.

Cogito
g_troll

Eon Blue
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Captain America.

Mindset
Vegeta.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
No...

None of Neo and Smiths opponents would have fore knowledge of being inside of the Matrix and wouldnt know how it operates...unless if was one of those near all-knowing types...like a very powerful cosmic/abstract being.

Lol then my answer still remains Doom, or even one of the mages.

Even if they don't know they were in the Matrix, they are already used to reality warping and breaking the rules of Physics. Pop Zatanna in there, for example, and she'd expect that when she said something backwards, it would happen. Therefore, as her mind is 'freed', the Matrix would bend to accommodate her.

So in other words....any superhero could do it, actually, provided that they displayed more strength/speed/power than what was shown in the movies (allNeo really did was fly really fast, and display some degree of super strength. And remove that bullet from Trinity. Nothing that is actually all that special in the world of comics).

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