Dr. Doom versus Zatanna

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



JakeTheBank
Pre-Flashpoint Z.

Doom knows she's a stage magician with real magic at her command, Zatanna conversely knows Doom is a sorcerer/genius. Otherwise, neither is really prepped to deal with the other.

Random encounter in populated New York City.

Sr J-Bieb
Zatanna turns his green cape into a purple one.

And then he buries his fist straight into her face

Mindset
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Zatanna turns his green cape into a purple one.

And then he buries his fist straight into her face thumb up

I wonder if Doom knows how to do the iron fist.

JakeTheBank
His armor's Wikipedia probably informed him.

abhilegend
Zatanna.

Mindset
Originally posted by abhilegend
Zatanna. Fanboy.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Mindset
Fanboy.
Who, me?

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by abhilegend
Zatanna.

Seriously or in jest?

abhilegend
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Seriously or in jest?
Whatever you prefer.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Pre-Flashpoint Z.

Doom knows she's a stage magician with real magic at her command, Zatanna conversely knows Doom is a sorcerer/genius. Otherwise, neither is really prepped to deal with the other.

Random encounter in populated New York City.

My gut tells me Doom wins, but I am not at all certain; Zatanna can be a beast, but Dooms defenses can be formidable...

Doom only needs one good attack to land flush, but Zatanna can do all sorts of horrible things to put Doom down...

I honestly dont know who wins here; Doom 6/10 maybe?

Batman-Prime
Zatanna would win, she is the better magican. Doom sucks. no expression

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Zatanna would win, she is the better magican. Doom sucks. no expression

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/seriously-bro-troll-harder.jpg

Batman-Prime
Actually I wasn't. I honestly think she is better and wins.

Oh and he really sucks. Marvels would be Lex Luthor in an cheap IronMan suit, I mean, really what

Philosophía
emoceb ruoy retteb

Doom transforms into Batman.

They have sex.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Actually I wasn't. I honestly think she is better and wins.

Unintentionally trolling is still trolling. wink

Doom's been currently portrayed as being a more learned and powerful magician than Dr. Strange and Wanda (and these were before Strange's loss of status and power). Not sure how that translates into him "sucking". And there's also his tech.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Oh and he really sucks. Marvels would be Lex Luthor in an cheap IronMan suit, I mean, really what

Lol @ any comparison to Doom to Lex Luthor. Luthor is so outclassed it's not even funny.

Mindset

JakeTheBank

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Unintentionally trolling is still trolling. wink

Doom's been currently portrayed as being a more learned and powerful magician than Dr. Strange and Wanda (and these were before Strange's loss of status and power). Not sure how that translates into him "sucking". And there's also his tech.

Ok, I know he practiced magic tgo save his mother so I might be not up to date but do you really think he is beyond the likes of Zatanna? His trademark was science intelligence and magic came later.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Ok, I know he practiced magic tgo save his mother so I might be not up to date but do you really think he is beyond the likes of Zatanna? His trademark was science intelligence and magic came later.

Yeah, Doom's magic push has been fairly recent within the past few years. Now, he's portrayed as one of the most powerful and learned practitioners of the mystic arts on the planet. He's come long way since Strange dubbed him a "mid level mage".

Given his current magical prowess and his tech/weapons, I think he's more than a match for Zatanna. Z's high end spells might be bothersome, assuming she could cast them before Doom casts his own spells or attacks with his weapons or summoned drones.

Mindset
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Ok, I know he practiced magic tgo save his mother so I might be not up to date but do you really think he is beyond the likes of Zatanna? His trademark was science intelligence and magic came later. That was years ago.

He has practiced with mages throughout time since then, including Morgana.

Honestly, lately his magic is more impressive than his tech.

Philosophía
And he still can't beat Magneto.

(h5)

Mindset
Except he has.

You nipple licker.

Now lick my nipples.

jalek moye
Originally posted by Mindset
That was years ago.

He has practiced with mages throughout time since then, including Morgana.

Honestly, lately his magic is more impressive than his tech.

Pretty much, if it wasn't for his armor, I'd forget he's a tech guy sometimes. The past 5+ years have mostly been about his magic with occasional use of machines.

Bouboumaster

Bouboumaster
Anyway, Doom pimpslap her.

Her head get severed from her neck.

Doom win.

Prep-Man
Good fight, but in a straight up mage style battle, I go with Zatanna,

Mindset
So if it was a fight that wasn't in this thread?

Odekahn
Without any form of prep whatsoever I say Zatana. But even 2 mins worth of prep from doom and he takes it. I could see her storming Castle Doomstadt, taking him by surprise, and winning (Not giving her prep, just more like a sick em'! lol). But if he knows she's coming and knows her powerset, he will crush her.

Bouboumaster
I think that she ain't not chance. She won't be able to cast anything. She'll be dead before.

Like:

"Yawa.." *SPLATT! Her ****ing head explode from a blast from DOOM*

JakeTheBank
He basically has common knowledge of Z: He knows she's a stage magician and he knows her spells aren't just tricks, but the real deal. She knows he's a magician/scientist who runs his own country. They're not prepped for each other, but they know who each other are.

Zatanna making a solo run on Castle Doomstadt would be akin to a suicide run.

Odekahn
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
He basically has common knowledge of Z: He knows she's a stage magician and he knows her spells aren't just tricks, but the real deal. She knows he's a magician/scientist who runs his own country. They're not prepped for each other, but they know who each other are.

Zatanna making a solo run on Castle Doomstadt would be akin to a suicide run.

Lol, I was thinking more along the lines of randomly appearing (teleporting/whatever) in the throne room, not running through the gauntlet of the funhouse that is Castle Doom.

With the above though, I'd say that Doom's magic is more than enough to hold her at bay, and in the midst of battle he formulates a plan and disposes of her.

Bouboumaster
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91225/1810355-doom_super_super.jpg

-K-M-
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Doom's been currently portrayed as being a more learned and powerful magician than Dr. Strange and Wanda (and these were before Strange's loss of status and power).

When was this?

Mindset
When he just said it.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by -K-M-
When was this?

When Wanda went to Latveria for help, Doom offered to help her tap into the Life Force, which was prior to her meltdown, and at which time, Strange would have still been Sorcerer Supreme of Earth. It's from Avengers: Children's Crusade #7.

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/Doomsmysticalpower.jpg

-K-M-
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
When Wanda went to Latveria for help, Doom offered to help her tap into the Life Force, which was prior to her meltdown, and at which time, Strange would have still been Sorcerer Supreme of Earth.

During Avengers Ddisassembled?

FYI, Strange was losing his power when he still had the title.

-K-M-
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
When Wanda went to Latveria for help, Doom offered to help her tap into the Life Force, which was prior to her meltdown, and at which time, Strange would have still been Sorcerer Supreme of Earth. It's from Avengers: Children's Crusade #7.

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/Doomsmysticalpower.jpg

I call shenangians then as that was supposed to be during Avengers Disassembled and Strange wasn't weakened at that time and that was WAY before Doom's push in magic.

EDIT: Wait isn't the last panel a mention of how House of M ended? If so that is after Disassembled and that was when Strange started to lose his power

2ND edit: Yeah pretty sure that's the end of House of M, when Strange started to go downhill. Meh!

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by -K-M-
During Avengers Ddisassembled?

FYI, Strange was losing his power when he still had the title.

Strange wasn't at the height of his "Classic" days during that period of time, but his power and status were still affirmed as being one of, if not the top magical practitioner of the mystic arts. That Strange was also certainly more formidable than the Strange we saw in World War Hulk and shortly after that.

In any case, Doom's magical abilities have been consistently portrayed as being far more significant than they were before, both in terms of power and his breadth of knowledge.

Originally posted by -K-M-
I call shenangians then as that was supposed to be during Avengers Disassembled and Strange wasn't weakened at that time and that was WAY before Doom's push in magic.

Doom's stint with the Nazareth was one of the first more recent pushes of Doom's sorcery, and during that time he was able to incapacitate Strange. According to Children's Crusade, Doom was the one ultimately responsible for pushing Wanda over the edge with his magic, and other stories have recently painted Doom as being one of the most powerful mages on the planet.

Mindset
Originally posted by -K-M-
I call shenangians then as that was supposed to be during Avengers Disassembled and Strange wasn't weakened at that time and that was WAY before Doom's push in magic. Hater.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by -K-M-
EDIT: Wait isn't the last panel a mention of how House of M ended?

The last panel is how House of M ended, yes.

But Wanda going to Doom in the first place was before HoM and Avengers: Disassembled alike.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Mindset
Except he has.

You nipple licker.

Now lick my nipples. Magneto was fending off his squirts in Children's Crusade, casually.

Doom knows deep down that without bullshit and tricks, Magneto would bend his plate and polish his anus.

That's why he tried to marry Wanda, when in fact he wants Reed to expand inside of him.

-K-M-
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The last panel is how House of M ended, yes.

But Wanda going to Doom in the first place was before HoM and Avengers: Disassembled alike.

From the page it seems more that whole sequence was during House of M, and if not then I'm definetly calling shenangians as no way was Doom more powerful in magic then Strange at that time.

JakeTheBank

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by -K-M-
From the page it seems more that whole sequence was during House of M, and if not then I'm definetly calling shenangians as no way was Doom more powerful in magic then Strange at that time.

No, because the previous page was Wiccan recalling said events, mentioning and asking how she went from magical abilities to reality warping powers on a godlike scale, prompting Wanda and Doom to explain what exactly happened to trigger her power-up.

I don't think Doom was or is as powerful as Classic Strange, but Strange at that time wasn't at his Classic levels either.

Mindset
Phil is just mad.

Give him some chocolate and he'll calm down.

This may or may not be a sexual euphemism.

Philosophía
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
There was nothing casual about how Magneto dealt with Doom, either through his own statements or actions. You missed the part where he said "No wonder your ass is so red from all the spankings Reed gave you, kind sir" just as a hand-shaped piece of Iron slapped Doom across the bottocks.

It's in the special edition, named "Humor. Get some"

JakeTheBank

Prep-Man
So, what is Doom's record facing Magneto?

Mindset
Winning.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Prep-Man
So, what is Doom's record facing Magneto?

Looking superior to him and almost making him kill himself. AKA:

Originally posted by Mindset
Winning.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Looking superior to him and almost making him kill himself.

Throughout history. Is it 4-0? What?

-K-M-
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
No, because the previous page was Wiccan recalling said events, mentioning and asking how she went from magical abilities to reality warping powers on a godlike scale, prompting Wanda and Doom to explain what exactly happened to trigger her power-up.

I don't think Doom was or is as powerful as Classic Strange, but Strange at that time wasn't at his Classic levels either.

but the last panel specifically mentions how House of M ended. Regardless if it isn't then it's definetly silly as Doom only RECENTLY has been getting a magic push and during that time Doom was not a remarkable magical user then.

What did Doom (pre-Disassembled time) do to warrant him being stronger then Strange at that time? As technically pre-disassembled Strange would be classic Strange.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Throughout history. Is it 4-0? What?

Something like that. In virtually every encounter they have, Doom either holds the advantage or Magneto admits Doom's superiority. Children's Crusade was probably his best showing against Doom, and that was just a prolonged stalemate more or less.

And yeah, Doom almost made Magneto kill himself.

Prep-Man
Through a spell or through words?

Philosophía
Doom has never beaten Magneto without prior prep.

Even the current, most powerful "Dr. Strange is my inferior" Doom could only stalemate Magneto.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Through a spell or through words?

Turning his powers against him.

Prep-Man
I should have clarified. Did Doom get one-sided prep? And what is Doom's record against Magneto in a STRAIGHT up fight? No prep or anything.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I should have clarified. Did Doom get one-sided prep? And what is Doom's record against Magneto in a STRAIGHT up fight? No prep or anything.

He holds the edge due to his ability to make himself immune or defend against Magneto's power through his suit. Most recently, Magneto lead the Young Avengers to invade Latveria and managed to stalemate Doom. Same arc in which Magneto conceded that Doom was more powerful than he was.

Prep-Man
Is Doom Classic Strange yet? In terms of mage skills.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Is Doom Classic Strange yet? In terms of mage skills.

In terms of power, no.

In terms of knowledge and his lack of hesitation exploring avenues of magic Strange wouldn't, yes. He's a legitimate contender for Sorcerer Supreme of Earth.

He's definitely not the "mid-level" mage Strange thought he was years ago.

Prep-Man
Would you rank Doom below or above Etrigan in his early years as a mage.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Would you rank Doom below or above Etrigan in his early years as a mage.

Tbh, I can't comment on Etrigan's skill as a mage one way or the other. Most of the comics I've read involve him just beating the shit out of people and breathing fire while rhyming, nothing I'd call "mage" worthy like casting actual spells or anything.

Prep-Man
He was a top tier mage, but recently he just does what you said.

Philosophía
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Same arc in which Magneto conceded that Doom was more powerful than he was. Also the same arc where Doom's magic is said to be more powerful than Dr Strange's, which you apparently refuse to acknowledge as being true. Are you doing a bit of selective "I'll take what is convenient and makes me sound less of a fool" hypocritical thinking, Jake?

You either go full-in and accept both statements and the consequenes, or take that as what they are, statements - which weren't proven right, at least in one case, Magneto's, when Doom could not beat him in one on one combat later on.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I should have clarified. Did Doom get one-sided prep? And what is Doom's record against Magneto in a STRAIGHT up fight? No prep or anything. Since Jake didn't answer this question, yes, Doom got one-sided prep. He gased him, and the entire planet, beforehand. They later fight in that same arc, and it's a stalemate.

JakeTheBank

Philosophía
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'm not being hypocritical at all.

Doom's magic was said to be more powerful than Wanda and Strange's. Magneto claimed Doom was more powerful than him. When they fought, the result was an inconclusive stalemate cut short due to Iron Lad separating them. The only time Magneto really even held the edge over Doom, was when Wonder Man and Iron Man joined with him to attack Doom in concert. Yes, but that's not what I'm asking. You just posted a scan, from the same comic, where Doom is said to be more powerful than both pre-depowerment Dr. Strange and Wanda, which you flat-out said you don't believe it to be true. At the same time, you take the Magneto statement as valid.

That's cherry picking whatever statement is convenient. You either accept or take both with a grain of salt - even moreso when, as even you atest, Doom and Magneto stalemated later on, in that same arc.

JakeTheBank

Philosophía
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not sure what's cherry picking about that. I don't see Strange circa pre-Disassembled being as formidable or powerful as his Classic era in my opinion.

Yes, you say that you don't believe that Doom is more powerful than Dr Strange, eventough there's a statement in that same arc saying just that. And make no mistake, that was classic Dr. Strange. At the same time, you take the statement about Doom being more powerful than Magneto as granted, eventough the actual arc shows them as fighting on even ground. You either take both, and accept that you're saying Doom is more powerful than classic Dr Strange, or none, and go by the actual feats and confrontations.

As for formidability, in the Dissassembled arc, Dr Strange beat HoM Wanda in one on one combat. That trumps most, if not all of his combat feats in the classic era.

Mindset
Phil is right.

Doom is stronger than both Classic Strange and Magneto.

JakeTheBank

Philosophía
This "I see your point, but agree to disagree" cop-outs are annoying.

Rough sex?

Originally posted by Mindset
Phil is right.

Doom is stronger than both Classic Strange and Magneto.

Rough sex.

JakeTheBank

Philosophía
Zatanna.

Konton
Random encounter? Zatanna.

Odekahn
But here's the thing... I think she's magically more powerful than Doom, looking at it as a random encounter the obvious choice is Zatanna, but she would have to end it extremely quickly (Which I don't think she would be able to do) and the longer the fight goes, the more of an advantage Doom has.

Konton
She's hexed bullets after they were fired, conjured forcefields in melee with the amped Mary Marvel, and she's straight duplicated the physicality and skill of martial artists in combat. I don't think she's really in that much trouble.

Odekahn
Originally posted by Konton
She's hexed bullets after they were fired, conjured forcefields in melee with the amped Mary Marvel, and she's straight duplicated the physicality and skill of martial artists in combat. I don't think she's really in that much trouble.

It's not that she would be in trouble or get stomped right away, it's Doom's ability to last and defend himself that matters here. Because the longer the fight goes on, the more time Doom has to think and come up with a way to beat her. He doesn't have prep, but if the fight lasts long enough he will have had more than enough time to calculate the situation, and when he does he'll win.

JakeTheBank
Just so people know, as I think it was brought up a page or two ago, this is a random encounter with common knowledge of each character, but Doom isn't just limited to magic. He has his tech and sorcery on hand as usual.

Odekahn
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Just so people know, as I think it was brought up a page or two ago, this is a random encounter with common knowledge of each character, but Doom isn't just limited to magic. He has his tech and sorcery on hand as usual.

Right, and so the only chance Zatanna has imo is to destroy Doom immediately before he has time to think the situation through. But she wouldn't be able to do that, so Doom wins.

Konton
She can duel it out over time. She displayed impressive stamina and dexterity in her fight with her resurrected father, where she showed off her "reverse that guys last spell" over and over.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Konton
She can duel it out over time. She displayed impressive stamina and dexterity in her fight with her resurrected father, where she showed off her "reverse that guys last spell" over and over.

That was a great feat for Z.

Existere
I pretty much think that Zatanna wins this, and I'd vote for Magneto over Doom too.

Mindset
You are a fool!

Odekahn
Originally posted by Konton
She can duel it out over time. She displayed impressive stamina and dexterity in her fight with her resurrected father, where she showed off her "reverse that guys last spell" over and over.

But it's not her stamina and dexterity that's in question when talking about the length of this fight. It's Doom's ability to find a way around that, or discover a weakness, or just mentally get the upper hand. He's better when it comes to strategy and he can think outside the box and find way to win.

Prep-Man
How can Doom find a way past Zatanna's best spells? Who has he defeated on Z's level on the fly?

Konton
So, what are his mental defenses like? Zee's kinda got crazy mind magic that she's casually infected the JLA with (including Batman and the Martian Manhunter), managing to keep any of them even knowing.

JakeTheBank
Aside from his incredibly high willpower feats, his psi-blockers keep telepaths on the level of Emma Frost out of his mind.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Konton
So, what are his mental defenses like? Zee's kinda got crazy mind magic that she's casually infected the JLA with (including Batman and the Martian Manhunter), managing to keep any of them even knowing.

How is magic TP compared to the psi TP mutants have?

Odekahn
I don't think he'd have anything on hand that could disrupt her spells, what I was referring to is that what he has on him (his suit and tech + his magic) is enough for him to survive for sometime, long enough for him to get whatever he needs to finish the job. He could lure her into a place where magic doesn't work or retrieve one of his power stealing gadgets (these are just examples, I'm not trying to get specific, no clue where magic wouldn't work lol) but the point I'm trying to make is the more time Doom has, the more the fight goes his direction because his mind is MUCH greater than Zatanna's.

Prep-Man
I doubt his suit would hold up to Z's most powerful spells. She did drop Starbreaker, an evolved Sun Eater once.

Mindset
His suit + tech force fields + magic force fields...I think he could hold out for a bit.

Uriel005
FOOT DIVE!

Edited: But in all seriousness Doom at the height of magic could probably outplay Z easily. But on his norm showings with tech and everything else he should be able to take it.

Existere
I think they're pretty much equal in versatility. Sure, Doom has tech + sorcery, but that's not inherently more versatile than sorcery by itself, which has the potential to be infinite in the options it provides. Sort of like how Surfer wouldn't be much more versatile with herald-level power armor.

I think Doom has on average better defenses, and I think Zee has on average a higher level of power output. Which isn't to call either weak, but Zee's feats of timestopping Despero, knocking Sun Eaters and mindwiping heralds with ease spring to mind, as do Doom's sincere displays of armor durability, as well as his myriad of shields and contingency plans.

I think Zee wins, but I could be convinced either way, and I'd sooner draft Doom in a tourney or on my super-team.

Toss up. Good match.

Existere
It occurs to me that I've never seen Doom display serious all-purpose anti-magic tech and that that could swing my vote really easily.

I've seen him combine his sorcery and science to neat effect, and I'd love to see him do the reverse.

Make his suit into a techno-version of the soul sword.

Would be soooooo cool.

Do it, writers. Get on that.

Sixth_Winged
Even with Doom's recent portrayal being an uber powerful magician (and probably having monster amounts of experience and knowledge being the apprentice of that marquis) he still doesn't have the raw showings of Zatanna as far as the potency of their spells go. I'd have to give it z still if this match just goes on a head to head magic-only battle.

However considering Doom can and should be able to at least withstand a few of z's spells, i'd have to give it to Doom if it turns into an anything goes sort of match. He'd have tech to back up his magic. Maybe even whup up the ovoid mind trick if it really turns desperate.

Eon Blue

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Even with Doom's recent portrayal being an uber powerful magician (and probably having monster amounts of experience and knowledge being the apprentice of that marquis) he still doesn't have the raw showings of Zatanna as far as the potency of their spells go. I'd have to give it z still if this match just goes on a head to head magic-only battle.

However considering Doom can and should be able to at least withstand a few of z's spells, i'd have to give it to Doom if it turns into an anything goes sort of match. He'd have tech to back up his magic. Maybe even whup up the ovoid mind trick if it really turns desperate.

It's not a magic-only battle.

Tony Stark
Originally posted by Existere
I pretty much think that Zatanna wins this, and I'd vote for Magneto over Doom too.


confused

DOOM stomps Zatanna and Magneto together

Existere
Originally posted by Tony Stark
confused

DOOM stomps Zatanna and Magneto together Battlezone match.

You take Doom.

I'll take Zatanna and Magneto.

Deal?

Tony Stark
Originally posted by Existere
Battlezone match.

You take Doom.

I'll take Zatanna and Magneto.

Deal?


Why go to the BATTLEZONE? It's very easy to see... Doom ftw

evil face

Hyperion Prime
Doom punches her in the lips so she can't do any spells. Doom wins.

Uriel005
While Doom no longer has the raw power he had as Apprentice to the MoD. I'm fairly certain the knowledge was never removed. Realistically speaking that event alone should put Doom over just about any other sorceror. He's had millenia to learn all about destruction and magic. That said on a random encounter I'll give it to Zatanna if it was purely magic. Her on the fly magic is more versatile imo. Doom has a tendency to go blasty magic when he's not prepped for an encounter. Zatanna could say

Nommus S'mood ssenkaew.

Squirrel girl appears and Doom surrenders. Point is I'll give Zatanna an edge on the on the fly magic but the tech and physical capability + general defenses Doom has in place+ any countermagics he can and would perform off hand gives it to him 6-7/10

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.