KMC Writer's Workshop

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Blair Wind

Blair Wind

Blair Wind

Blair Wind

Blair Wind

Blair Wind

Digi
Vogler has been accused of homogenizing adventure writing to a certain extent, because he borrows so heavily from a single template (regardless of how prevalent the template may be in writing). Even his own warnings on this haven't made him immune to criticism. Still, it's as good a place to start as any, and I'm a big fan of Campbell. He has a tendency to gloss over differences in order to focus on the similarities of stories, and some of his applications of psychology are dated at best (he frequently cites Freud and Jung), but the way he's able to draw inspiration and beauty from myths without having to interpret them literally is an amazing gift.

And it's also hard to write a comic hero story without including elements of the hero's journey, even unknowingly, so it's good to be familiar with them.

....

I generally try to come up with a fun concept for a story, then flesh out the characters and plot around it. If I start with a character, it tends to be me, so I need to create characters to fit a scenario instead of vice-versa. I haven't done much comic writing (a few concepts and outlines is all) but most of my writing has been either short stories or poetry, which can still include a heroic arc if treated properly.

Digi
I also see the Hero's Journey as something akin to the 5-paragraph essay we all learn in high school. In order to branch out and create permutations of the main structure, you must first learn to write within the structure.

Students who rebel in their writing against such structure generally have a vague sense of freedom and independence that is being stifled....without realizing that it becomes easier to break stereotypes and patterns when you are more familiar with them.

So I have fallen back on the Hero's Journey with little shame in the past, because it is a useful backbone.

Blair Wind
I'd like to get into more detail about the character archetypes that Campbell and Vogler utilize but that will take some time to summarize their contributions into digestible chunks.

In the meantime, here is a video by Andrew Stanton (Toy Story, WALL-E, Finding Nemo, and John Carter) about the clues to a great story.

KxDwieKpawg


Originally posted by Digi
Vogler has been accused of homogenizing adventure writing to a certain extent, because he borrows so heavily from a single template (regardless of how prevalent the template may be in writing). Even his own warnings on this haven't made him immune to criticism. Still, it's as good a place to start as any, and I'm a big fan of Campbell. He has a tendency to gloss over differences in order to focus on the similarities of stories, and some of his applications of psychology are dated at best (he frequently cites Freud and Jung), but the way he's able to draw inspiration and beauty from myths without having to interpret them literally is an amazing gift.

And it's also hard to write a comic hero story without including elements of the hero's journey, even unknowingly, so it's good to be familiar with them.

....

I generally try to come up with a fun concept for a story, then flesh out the characters and plot around it. If I start with a character, it tends to be me, so I need to create characters to fit a scenario instead of vice-versa. I haven't done much comic writing (a few concepts and outlines is all) but most of my writing has been either short stories or poetry, which can still include a heroic arc if treated properly.

Originally posted by Digi
I also see the Hero's Journey as something akin to the 5-paragraph essay we all learn in high school. In order to branch out and create permutations of the main structure, you must first learn to write within the structure.

Students who rebel in their writing against such structure generally have a vague sense of freedom and independence that is being stifled....without realizing that it becomes easier to break stereotypes and patterns when you are more familiar with them.

So I have fallen back on the Hero's Journey with little shame in the past, because it is a useful backbone.

thumb up I can agree with all of this. For a beginner, I think it is best to be familiar with this process than to start off with no compass or map to guide you.

Existere
I just wrote this ten page paper for a class on the mythology of heroes, heroines and saints. I was talking about King Arthur, both in the context of what Campbell called the 'monomyth', and with regards to archetypal characters. 'Monomyth' I guess is synonymous with the 'hero's journey' - the idea being that there was this one underlying story within many/all myths, etc.

It was pretty great.

I haven't actually read any of the rest of this thread yet, because I'm about to run out and that's a lot of text, but I got really excited when I saw what it was all about.

JakeTheBank
Awesome thread concept. I've been looking into the Hero's Journey for my own writing. thumb up

srankmissingnin
Now I don't consider myself a writer, I consider myself an artist who by nature having barely made it through several incredibly negative collaborations without murdering someone is forced to write so that my ideas can come into fruition unmolested by the minds of the terrible writers I happen know. I'm on io9 all the time reading science and sci-fi articles and they post and occasionally some articles giving advice to writers that I personally have found helpful. Not sure how useful they will be to people consider themselves a writer by trade.

http://io9.com/5881386/how-not-to-be-a-clever-writer?tag=freeadvice
http://io9.com/5870146/i-wrote-100-terrible-short-stories-that-im-glad-youll-never-read?tag=freeadvice
http://io9.com/5896488/10-secrets-to-creating-unforgettable-supporting-characters?tag=freeadvice

abhilegend
Awesome thread.thumb up

Digi
The other unfortunate thing here is that this is all sort of the creative aspect of writing, not the business of it. Comics or otherwise, most writers are statistically screwed based solely on the competition in the field, irregardless of the quality of their work.

Because even with some sound advice and a general strategy or approach, it's basically "do you have enough time to regularly devote to this for years in order to break into the industry at all?" Because not only do you have to knock on a lot of doors to get a foot in one of them, but you also need to write hundreds of stories that will never be published in order to have the mastery of your craft needed (at least for most).

And yes, irregardless is a word. "Regardless" would've been more utilitarian (and "succinct" or "simple" would've been more utilitarian for "utilitarian"wink but I like that it exists.

313

Originally posted by Existere
I just wrote this ten page paper for a class on the mythology of heroes, heroines and saints. I was talking about King Arthur, both in the context of what Campbell called the 'monomyth', and with regards to archetypal characters. 'Monomyth' I guess is synonymous with the 'hero's journey' - the idea being that there was this one underlying story within many/all myths, etc.

It was pretty great.

I haven't actually read any of the rest of this thread yet, because I'm about to run out and that's a lot of text, but I got really excited when I saw what it was all about.

Campbell actually gets eviscerated at higher levels of academia these days - he's far more popular to a mass market anymore. But he also remains the most fascinating scholar of myth in the last century, so writing about him or reading him is always interesting.

To anyone who enjoys him, I recommend "A Joseph Campbell Companion: Reflections on the Art of Living." It's a wonderful collection of wisdom and excerpts from his writings and lectures. A knowledge of his work is prerequisite to fully enjoy it, but it's also the only source I go to anymore to quote his ideas, simply because it's so well organized and condensed compared to his more well-known works.

Mindship
Thread Idea thumb up

The Hero's Journey is a good, general path; to a large extent, it's what story reader's expect. Character development is key. Ultimately, the story is about a 'person', not the journey.

Omega Vision
Not once have I heard the professors of the writing department at FSU invoke the Hero's Journey in a serious way. I think it's more for genre fiction, Hollywood script writing, and occasionally analyzing films and literature on a surface level.

It's all about yearning and "the white hot center" (I don't really understand that part yet) here: the Robert Olen Butler method.

Blair Wind
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Not once have I heard the professors of the writing department at FSU invoke the Hero's Journey in a serious way. I think it's more for genre fiction, Hollywood script writing, and occasionally analyzing films and literature on a surface level.

It's all about yearning and "the white hot center" (I don't really understand that part yet) here: the Robert Olen Butler method.

It does depend on the writing style. Most screen plays follow this - it's a variation of what I was taught in my screen writing classes (though it was called the 7 tentpoles there).

Interesting to note that a lot of big time "stories" (Harry Potter & Star Wars being two prime examples) follow this model - it is more of a general guideline but I believe it can give you focus if you have no idea what you are doing.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Blair Wind
It does depend on the writing style. Most screen plays follow this - it's a variation of what I was taught in my screen writing classes (though it was called the 7 tentpoles there).

Interesting to note that a lot of big time "stories" (Harry Potter & Star Wars being two prime examples) follow this model - it is more of a general guideline but I believe it can give you focus if you have no idea what you are doing.
Well those are both examples of Genre Fiction. Not to say they aren't entertaining or good stories, but when you strip away the flashy genre aspects (magic, space battles, Quiddich, etc.) any real excellence is there because there are characters with real yearnings that a reader/viewer can invest his/her emotions into.

Also I have trouble reading Harry Potter now because of all the times JK Rowling tells rather than shows in her prose. stick out tongue

I'm writing a fantasy novel right now, but I'm trying to avoid bathing it in flashiness to distract from any shortcomings in the real writing. Above all else I'm avoiding thinking of it in terms of a linear journey or something that can be planned out since over time I've come to see that route as artificial, safe, and soulless.

Edit: I'm not discouraging anyone from attempting this method, I'm just voicing my opinion on the shortcomings I perceive. I also disagree that a writer 'needs' to master this method before they can move on to wider horizons. I don't think it's necessary at any juncture, helpful to some yes, but not necessary.

Blair Wind
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Well those are both examples of Genre Fiction. Not to say they aren't entertaining or good stories, but when you strip away the flashy genre aspects (magic, space battles, Quiddich, etc.) any real excellence is there because there are characters with real yearnings that a reader/viewer can invest his/her emotions into.

I agree that character development is an important aspect - hell, the most important aspect - of a good story. I'll be going more into the character archetypes from what I am familiar with (Jung/Campbell/Vogler). I find their descriptions to be liberating in a way, because you can play with different archetypes and combining them to make much more interesting characters.

I'm also a big fan of non-linear work - the Nolan brother's are known for that (Memento for instance) - and yet that doesn't detract from having the journey mapped out ahead of time. You can shuffle the deck as it were in the way that you present the story without losing any of the power of having a journey that resembles this. The way the journey happens chronologically and the way the journey is presented can be two different things.

All of this is simply my opinion, having been exposed to this method for writing film. I happen to like the structure, and the freedom it provides, but that may just be me.

--------------------------------------------------------

With that said, this thread is not meant to simply be "The Hero Cycle Workshop". For example, I'd be interested in learning more about "the white hot center".

If anyone does plan on contributing to the thread, I'd just ask that you present the information in an organized matter, similar to how I did with the Hero's Journey.

Eventually, if it's not too much of a bother to Digi, I'd like to have the first page or so cleaned up to reflect all the important things added to this thread.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Blair Wind
I agree that character development is an important aspect - hell, the most important aspect - of a good story. I'll be going more into the character archetypes from what I am familiar with (Jung/Campbell/Vogler). I find their descriptions to be liberating in a way, because you can play with different archetypes and combining them to make much more interesting characters.

With that said, this thread is not meant to simply be "The Hero Cycle Workshop". For example, I'd be interested in learning more about "the white hot center".

Opposite with me, I find constraining characters into archetypes makes it more difficult to see characters as individuals rather than classes, IE tokens rather than types.

I still see in terms of archetypes, something which I blame on my Cinema Appreciation prof who was a big fan of this method. But I try not to see in terms of archetypes.

Heh, my current writing teacher Barbara Hamby has taken Robert Olen Butler's class twice and she still doesn't understand the white hot center all too well. Keep in mind, this is a woman who won a Guggenheim in 2010.

My paltry understanding of the white hot center is something which goes against my intuitive writing form. Contrary to how I've talked, my natural way of writing is very linear, very plot based, very analytical. As Mrs. Hamby said, I have a critical mind well suited to that.

But the method they teach here, and the method I'm aspiring to learn (or at least take the best elements of it) is one of yearning, emotions, sensory experience (I'm trying to eliminate all non-essential internal monologue from my writing), and unlocking a dream state and writing unconsciously (not literally unconsciously) and unleashing your inner creativity without letting your analytical aspect intervene.

If the Hero's Journey method is like Christianity then the White Hot Center is like Daoism.

Edit: Any beginner writers are doing themselves a disservice if they don't pick up Writing Fiction: A Guide to Narrative Craft by Janet Burroway.

It's an amazing book with bountiful insight and it's a great transition into Butler-esque writing.

Digi
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Not once have I heard the professors of the writing department at FSU invoke the Hero's Journey in a serious way. I think it's more for genre fiction, Hollywood script writing, and occasionally analyzing films and literature on a surface level.

Well...

Originally posted by Digi
Campbell actually gets eviscerated at higher levels of academia these days - he's far more popular to a mass market anymore. But he also remains the most fascinating scholar of myth in the last century, so writing about him or reading him is always interesting.

He doesn't get taken seriously because his attempts to overlap myth with pop psychology no longer hold up to scrutiny. Few doubt or disagree with his general Hero's Journey premise, it just doesn't provide the most fertile ground for further literary or historical inquiry when you're trying to reduce everything to its base elements, then leaving it at that. So he's not so much wholly discredited as ignored within academia, because your average historical or writing professor would rather search for something new instead of falling back on known archetypes.

.....

Originally posted by Blair Wind
I'd be interested in learning more about "the white hot center".

I bet you would.

biscuits

no expression

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Eventually, if it's not too much of a bother to Digi, I'd like to have the first page or so cleaned up to reflect all the important things added to this thread.

Sure, just not for a little while. it might take come time to amass a large body of material to justify that.

I may lurk here, but I'm also going to bow out of posting in this thread. Most of what I do for a living is write, but don't really touch fiction or adventure writing in a serious way, so this isn't really my thing.

Omega Vision
A few simple lessons I've learned over time:

-Remove all non-necessary filters from your writing. (Ex: "She came into the room. I looked at her and saw that she had her aunt's old dress on." --> "She came into the room wearing her aunt's old dress."wink Filters include heard, saw, felt, smelt, and many other sensory verbs. I'm not sure if 'think' 'believe' 'remember' and 'wonder' count, but I put them under demi-filters and try to check their usage and use them sparingly. In most cases you can avoid using filters --especially more than once in the same sentence--without hurting your sentences.

-Avoid cramming every sentence with 'be' verbs (is, was, to be, would be, does). My Article Technique professor is a real hardass about this, but I don't agree with him that they should be removed scorch-earth style, just reduced to avoid repetitive sentences.

-Try to start off every piece of writing in scene, preferably with a character performing a relevant action. Starting off the story in the narrator/protag's mind or with summary of the backstory is tempting but really hurts your chances of hooking the reader unless you're skilled at getting their attention some other way.

-95% of the time, when dealing with dialogue tags for statements, just say 'says' or 'said'. You don't want your dialogue tags to call attention to themselves with flashy words like "ejaculated" or "declared" unless you're going for a specific effect that can't be reached with a simpler word.

-Always be on the lookout for tense shifting. Nothing makes a piece of writing look more unprofessional and unpolished (well, short of horrendous misspelling/grammatical trainwrecks) than seeing one line where people do things and a line immediately after where people did things despite no shift in narrative time occurring. Tense shifts are for flashbacks.

Digi
Originally posted by Omega Vision
95% of the time, when dealing with dialogue tags for statements, just say 'says' or 'said'. You don't want your dialogue tags to call attention to themselves with flashy words like "ejaculated" or "declared" unless you're going for a specific effect that can't be reached with a simpler word.

It's also been shown that most readers overlook these words entirely. It's not worth the effort.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Tense shifts are for flashbacks.

And high school creative writing assignments. no expression

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Digi
It's also been shown that most readers overlook these words entirely. It's not worth the effort.


"Its not worth teh effert," shooted Digi.

basilisk

JakeTheBank
The following is a direct link to the Marvel Comics C2E2 (which was a blast) Live Blog "Breaking into Comics the Marvel Way". Not sure how many writers here are actively pursuing writing comics specifically, but I found it interesting. It's a bit long to read and most of the stuff was basic kind of knowledge, but it is a general sort of guideline to aspiring writers (and artists) in the industry. Most of what I write down below is a combination of my own personal experiences and the advice given in said blog and I hope it helps in some way.

http://marvel.com/news/story/18473/c2e2_2012_liveblog_central

Generally, it's a good idea to have a portfolio of your work and a strong emphasize was made on social networking and forging positive and genuine relationships with people in the business. Like any job, who you know can help you out immensely, especially since the industry of comics is pretty tight knit and everyone knows of everyone basically. Personally, I found that going to various cons and picking the brains of creators, big time ones and the local ones who aren't as famous, is a great idea. Most of them are personable and can point you in the right direction as far as what you want to do.

Another strong point which was made is that if you want to write comics, then write comics; if you want to draw, then draw. Waiting around for someone to give you permission to write a comic is also not a good idea; you'll need to get work out there and constantly get critique from other writers and peers who will tell you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear.

Most companies are also more receptive to someone telling a story about a lesser known/mainstream character than one of their icons. You'll have more leeway in an Ant-Man story than, say, a Spider-Man one. Marvel in particular isn't accepting or looking for "creator owned" characters or anything, but they are always looking for talent.

The best thing to do if you specifically go to a convention is to leave a sample of your work with as many creators as possible (though if you can find an editor, that's even better). Networking seems to be the one thing virtually every creator in comic can agree on as being essential. Getting the e-mails of some of these people would be a great boon, especially if you're able to establish a cordial and friendly relationship with them, not just use them as stepping stones for your own career. Provided you land a job with Marvel or any big company, you'll probably be expected to move to be closer to their headquarters (or be willing to travel a lot), but you can get your start from anywhere, really.

Omega Vision

Omega Vision
I'm not sure how relevant this is to the thread, but this is the alphabet for a constructed language I'm toying around with:

http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz41/Jdukverst/Thallicalphabet.png

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