Would the galaxy have been better off without the jedi?

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focus4chumps
not sure if this was covered before, but here is my case against the jedi:

it is my understanding that the sith were birthed from the corruption of jedi teachings by evil/misguided people.

would it be safe to say that if the jedi order had never existed, and the discipline/force knowledge therein, then neither would the sith?

and if so, would it be safe to assume that the galaxy would not have been forced into dark eras of oppression, of which only jedi were capable of rectifying?

queeq
Errrrrrrrrrrrrr..... you think about this too much.

~JP~
Originally posted by queeq
Errrrrrrrrrrrrr..... you think about this too much.

+1

focus4chumps
Originally posted by queeq
Errrrrrrrrrrrrr..... you think about this too much.

keep following that train of thought, and you're going to end up delegitimizing the whole forum

queeq
That is BS.

We can discuss anything SW. But 'what if' debates are silly. What if Anakin were a girl? What if Solo was gay, would he have hooked up with Luke instead of Leia? What if Lucas had not created SW but Quentin Tarantino, would Anakin have been a bad a$$? What if Lucas had created Star Trek, would it have been like SW or more like Blake's Seven? What if Lucas had created the A-Team, would Murdock use a lightsabre?

focus4chumps
wow...it has nothing at all to do with hypothetical scenarios.

the jedi were presumably the ones who gained original knowledge of the force, enabling them to use telekinesis, esp, superhuman abilities in combat, and even mind control. in essence they trained to become a sort of demigod. while they intended these to be used in a virtuous manner for the greater good, they also opened a pandora's box.

at its root, its a philosophical question of whether the benefits of force knowledge outweighed the repercussion, in the form of the sith.

if you think thats a silly topic, fine. but this is factually not a "what if" thread. so if you want to fling poopy at it then at least place a proper label on it before doing so.

Sadako of Girth
Would the force not "find a way" Jurassic Park style to utilise agents who are sensitive to it (given the explanation that Qui-Gonn gave) if either good or evil practioners only have to clear their minds to communicate with the force?

Crossing with Spock's "As a matter of cosmic history it has always been easier to destroy than create" observation, I wonder who would be 1st...?

Sith, requiring the Jedi to train against the ruling sith,
or
Jedi, requiring the shadow/balance thang to occur from the Jedi's failings...?

An interesting thread.

focus4chumps
well one clue i find is in ep1 when quigon reports on his first confrontation with darth maul. he concluded that maul was a sith, because he was "trained in the jedi arts".

if he had simply said "strong with the dark side" or "powerful with the force", or something ambiguous along those lines, it would be different. however, at least in terms of use of the force in combat, it seems to be implied that the jedi arts came first and the sith then formed (or perhaps splintered) to corrupted their discipline. of course this what i inferred and unless GL quoted to support/refute that observation, its speculation (well grounded imho, but none the less speculation)

but yes the question is still begged "was force knowledge an inevitability?". its clearly suggested that many people experience force-powers as children (quigon's conversation with shmi, already knowing anakins capabilities), thus its clear that people would have used the force regardless. i feel however that they would have done so unwittingly as young anakin did. so imho, unknowing force-use would have existed, but not knowledge of the force.

i dont think the sith would have been able to reach the mastery of the force without borrowing the discipline and labor of thousands of years of jedi discipline and evolution of that discipline. while the sith proved to be no slouches, they have nothing new to bring to the discipline. (some can argue that they invented force lightning, but with no evidence other than the fact that we never see a jedi use it)

also, thanks for the thoughtful input

Sadako of Girth
Well if those with high midichlorean counts can whup all comers in pod races because they see things happening before their happening on this plain, that suggests that their may have been enough to make a difference in the universe based on force sensitivity. (And if the counterargument that Anakin's count was only so high because he was a miraculously created or manifested by the force would work more in favour for the assertion that the force would have had its way somehow in the end anyhow...)

Only thing that might play havoc with that is the theory that Palpatine influenced the force to create Anakin, as alluded to by Palpatine in ROTS. If he fibbed, then we can most likely assume that the living force was the guv'nah.

Also how do we gauge the "which came first" element?
On screen feats would have the Jedi being dominant with the Sith in hiding at the TPM times. Yet existed still they did.
So that could come out 'even stevens'.

Lord Shadow Z
Originally posted by focus4chumps
not sure if this was covered before, but here is my case against the jedi:

it is my understanding that the sith were birthed from the corruption of jedi teachings by evil/misguided people.

would it be safe to say that if the jedi order had never existed, and the discipline/force knowledge therein, then neither would the sith?

and if so, would it be safe to assume that the galaxy would not have been forced into dark eras of oppression, of which only jedi were capable of rectifying?

I think in the case of SW, it can all depend on the exact species that becomes one with the Force. The 'human' mind is certainly susceptible to extremes of emotion and for this reason that becomes clear at how they tightly confine themselves in mastering them. Other species may be better at using the Force without going bad, certainly in Yoda's case you never saw extreme anger, mild irritation at best.

You could argue that the Jedi Order prevents a lot of people from using the Force for bad through their teachings, for if they weren't there a lot of unguided Force users could be even more disastrous for the galaxy.

steverules_2
Originally posted by queeq
That is BS.

We can discuss anything SW. But 'what if' debates are silly. What if Anakin were a girl? What if Solo was gay, would he have hooked up with Luke instead of Leia? What if Lucas had not created SW but Quentin Tarantino, would Anakin have been a bad a$$? What if Lucas had created Star Trek, would it have been like SW or more like Blake's Seven? What if Lucas had created the A-Team, would Murdock use a lightsabre?

You just listed all my next threads sad

focus4chumps
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth

Only thing that might play havoc with that is the theory that Palpatine influenced the force to create Anakin, as alluded to by Palpatine in ROTS. If he fibbed, then we can most likely assume that the living force was the guv'nah.

while not 100% provable, its safe to assume that he was lying. given his close relationship with anakin and that the sith have an adequate grasp of esp, one way or another anakin must have told him about his immaculate conception.

as for the will of the living force... while it seems well suggested that anakin was created to bring balance to the force, that doesnt necessarily mean that the force willed the jedi discipline into existence. its such an elusive topic since dead jedi have the ability of retaining their spirits. it could be that the "will" as we know it are simply a collection of ex-force users continuing to manipulate the force. i dont think it will be explained to us, and thats ok by me considering all that was explained to many's chagrin.

with that said, the possibility does exist that the will of the force was to encourage the jedi discipline, so good point.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Also how do we gauge the "which came first" element?
On screen feats would have the Jedi being dominant with the Sith in hiding at the TPM times. Yet existed still they did.
So that could come out 'even stevens'.

yes. chicken and egg indeed. it is clear that the esp/mind control/telekinesis is weak and virtually nonexistent without training, even for the "chosen one". his greatest achievement before the jedi academy was being a better racer than any humans, yet slightly better than alien non-jedi. luke was able to bullseye womprats, etc. whatever the case, i think its a safe assumption that the jedi discipline is not something that just comes to a force adept. i firmly believe that if qui gon had not found him, anakin would have lived out his life to old age having never read a thought or levitated so much as a dust bunny.

focus4chumps
Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z

You could argue that the Jedi Order prevents a lot of people from using the Force for bad through their teachings, for if they weren't there a lot of unguided Force users could be even more disastrous for the galaxy.

another interesting point. perhaps even without discipline, people were still able to manipulate their fate and fortune, and that of others. first thing that came to mind was an untrained force adept turned loose on the stock exchange and seeing things before they happen. yes i suppose it was always possible for an ill-disciplined adept to amass power while unknowingly manipulation the force. but the big question: would he know it was the force as opposed to just regarding it as his own unique and strange abilities? i think the latter.

however imho any scenario pales in comparison with a cult of evil and disciplined force users hell-bent over thousands of years on conquering the galaxy. the point that stands out the most for me is this. how would the original force adepts have seeked out others without the discipline to sense the force.

perhaps those who originally recognised the force and gathered to learn its ways and form a discipline were not really jedi OR sith, which would shoot my argument down completely. given the stories GL likes to emmulate, its likely that this long ago assembly was among those who were wise, passive, selfless, virtuous, etc...jedi

Lord Shadow Z
Originally posted by focus4chumps
another interesting point. perhaps even without discipline, people were still able to manipulate their fate and fortune, and that of others. first thing that came to mind was an untrained force adept turned loose on the stock exchange and seeing things before they happen. yes i suppose it was always possible for an ill-disciplined adept to amass power while unknowingly manipulation the force. but the big question: would he know it was the force as opposed to just regarding it as his own unique and strange abilities? i think the latter.

however imho any scenario pales in comparison with a cult of evil and disciplined force users hell-bent over thousands of years on conquering the galaxy. the point that stands out the most for me is this. how would the original force adepts have seeked out others without the discipline to sense the force.

perhaps those who originally recognised the force and gathered to learn its ways and form a discipline were not really jedi OR sith, which would shoot my argument down completely. given the stories GL likes to emmulate, its likely that this long ago assembly was among those who were wise, passive, selfless, virtuous, etc...jedi

I think that any person or creature (at least on earth) would use any power or ability to their benefit if there wasn't any control to it. The Force gives a person advantages over almost anyone (some can't be manipulated of course Hutts and Toydarians and the Yuuzhan Vong are immune) and through this power with no way of checking it people will fear you and if they follow a 'human' pattern they will either seek to join you or attack you.

Attacking you would force you to use the Force (pun alert) and because your skills are superior you would win but you would be tainted and might see these powers as a curse rather than a blessing. This would inflame your sense of frustation, paranoia and lead to lash out even more with your powers forming a circular pattern of behaviour

Joining you might not be much different because it all depends on the agenda of those joining you. Some may honestly want to be 'one with all living things' but some may want to learn the Force to establish superiority over you or others. That is where paranoia sets in again, you may suspect these things but are loathe to use the Force to read the people around you - to find their true motives. But say you do it and find no dishonesty but are filled with shame for attempting it, which leads to frustration, anger etc.

A Jedi Order (like you describe) would be quite useful in seeing and training the mind to overcome uncertainty that may arise following my above scenarios, not to mention teaching how to do things without the Force and how it's important not to rely on it too much. However I will contend that perhaps for some people or life forms who have only known aggression (either from themselves or from others) their whole lives the patient, ordered life of the Jedi may be the thing that makes them frustrated and angry and leave the Order. I don't necessarily see these people as Sith, I think of the Sith as a group that's specifically taught how to use the Force for evil.

queeq
Originally posted by steverules_2
You just listed all my next threads sad

I look forward to them. wink

Sadako of Girth
Originally posted by queeq
That is BS.

We can discuss anything SW. But 'what if' debates are silly. What if Anakin were a girl? What if Solo was gay, would he have hooked up with Luke instead of Leia? What if Lucas had not created SW but Quentin Tarantino, would Anakin have been a bad a$$? What if Lucas had created Star Trek, would it have been like SW or more like Blake's Seven? What if Lucas had created the A-Team, would Murdock use a lightsabre?

What if Han shot first..?
















































stick out tongue

focus4chumps
or what if someone else produced and directed the films? what would they do? ...wait a minute




(j/k i find that to be a delightful topic...albeit an actual 'what if' thread),

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