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Versus
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Setting:http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/51712zx2.jpg


This battle takes place away from Palpatine's Dark Side Nexus, but he is in a young Clone body and Peaking in power.

Caedus is likewise Peaked in power, and ready to go.

They both will battle in Palpatine's Office, for supremacy as Sith Lords.


1. Saber

2. Force

3. All. Out.


Who survives this bloody matchup?

Darth Caedus = JA Luke (At least)

JA Luke>DE Sidious.

It's really weird, if you do the math then DE Sidious really is overrated.

DE Sidious knows every power, supposedly, however, no matter what he can't seem to overcome a Pre-Jedi Academy(even) Luke and his friends.
He constantly struggles, getting killed off here and there, and later when Leia starts glowing like a radioactive cockroach, suddenly Luke rapes him.

This same Luke became more experienced and had trouble with the likes of an inexperienced lizard with an ego.

Then Caedus comes along and is able to handily defeat an uber-experienced Kyle Katarn (Who could likely narrowly defeat DE Luke, who defeated DE Sidious) along with a few other Jedi Knights, and he proceeds to give "Most Epic Version of Luke in Existence" hell, before finally being defeated.

Doing a bit of rough/basic math would indicate Caedus would at least defeat DE Sidious narrowly making Caedus and Not Sidious the deadliest Sith Lord in history, next to Darth Galactus.


Where does Darth Bane fit in with all this?

We know he would crush Desann, whereas a Post-DE Luke could not, and we know through basic math, that if he were at peak-power; wearing orbalisks and at close range (Out of range of Force Storms) he would likely also defeat DE Sidious narrowly.

The real question would realistically, and in actuality, be Darth Bane versus Darth Caedus as (based off of actual killing-ability and not "possible" feats) most powerful Sith Lord.

That fight could probably go either way, I don't know.


However, if the "Force Storm" thing is supposed to be Palpy's real reason for the "Most powerful Sith Lord in history" thing, as long as we're going off actual capability and not brag or Writer's Fiat, then Darth Galactus would trump Sidious, with his ability to kill the life on an entire world in a whisper.

Then again, N is basically just an energetic-consciousness infused into armor, so perhaps Sidious just counts as the most destructive Sith Lord in an organic form.

Still not the deadliest though, aside from the Force Storm.

mmm...

saber - Caedus

force - Toss up

all out - Toss up

The claims you make are entirely unsupported and appeals to "basic math" aren't equitable to canonical evidence. You might as well have finished every sentence with "...because I say so." At least it would be a little more honest.

Sabers - Probably Caedus.

Force - Definitely Sidious. The reason is simple. Caedus unlike other Sith used only his inner potential, while Sidious fed on suffering of others, draining life energy from whole planet and various dark rituals. Simple fact that Sidious blows up instead of simply dying already proves that.

All out - Toss up. There are several things to consider. Sidious is superior in power, yet, Caedus' defenses are superior enough to nullify effect, though he would be on defensive most of the time. Sidious is far more evil and angry, which gives him another credit in terms of power, yet, it puts extreme toll on his body. While Jacen is as self-controlled during fight as a Jedi and gets only stronger experiencing pain.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
The claims you make are entirely unsupported and appeals to "basic math" aren't equitable to canonical evidence. You might as well have finished every sentence with "...because I say so." At least it would be a little more honest.



What parts are you confused about?

Caedus takes 9/10 - against DE Luke, who beat Sidious

Caedus takes 7/10 against DE Sidious


Remember, no Force Storm (his only true trump-card) for Sidious, due to the close and unsafe proximity of their fight.

And also no Dark Side Nexus.

Battlemaster
What parts are you confused about?

The part where you think your unsupported claims and appeals to common sense constitute fact... which, if I'm not mistaken, was what got you into trouble on another thread not too long ago.

If you make a claim, support the claim.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
The part where you think your unsupported claims and appeals to common sense constitute fact... which, if I'm not mistaken, was what got you into trouble on another thread not too long ago.

If you make a claim, support the claim.


Really? Which thread was that? I recall a thread where I brought up an apparent unknown tidbit of knowledge, and after some initial disbelief, everyone silently conceded to the fact that they had learned something new about Jedi/Sith lore.

And yes, my earlier post on this thread was very much about simple observations based upon common sense, which by it's very nature is rational and logical.

Pretty much everyone here is aware, that the later Peak-Evolved heavy-hitter characters in LotF could at least narrowly defeat DE Luke.

People aren't so stupid that I have to lay out every simple fact for them.

I recall this thread, in which you were brought to task by pretty much every single remaining regular poster on this forum for your blatant lack of evidence.







Everything you've described is textbook logical fallacy. Make your claim, support your claim. Relying solely on transient consensus is inept.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
I recall this thread, in which you were brought to task by pretty much every single remaining regular poster on this forum for your blatant lack of evidence.





Yeah - and then they realized I was Right (with a few posters going so far as to admit it) after a while and dropped their arguments.

They're not idiots. They back-checked what I posted and saw that it was true.








Originally posted by Herbert Spencer

Everything you've described is textbook logical fallacy. Make your claim, support your claim. Relying solely on transient consensus is inept.



I'm saying that the top-tier Heavy Hitters of LotF, which are the most powerful versions of people like Caedus and Kyle, could definitely narrowly defeat a far more inferior version of Luke.

Basically, having a brain and eyes tells you that. You don't need a super-computer or a note signed in blood by George Lucas to tell you that.


If you're saying otherwise, then you're essentially saying that DE Luke is as powerful as LotF Luke, which in itself is unsupported and fallacious.

Go get me some proof stating that DE Luke is as powerful as his Peak-evolved incarnation some 20 years later, and then we'll talk.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yeah - and then they realized I was Right (with a few posters going so far as to admit it) after a while and dropped their arguments.
Eurgh. This is the worst kind of internet posturing. People didn't stop responding because they were tacitly conceding, they stopped responding because you're boring. And as far as I can tell, you yourself failed to respond ("dropped the argument" to Arhael's post observing the utter inanity of trying to draw a direct correlation between titles and combat ability.

By even the most crass standards of e-peen brinksmanship, you've got no ground to stand on.

That argument boiled down to a shouting match while ignoring the distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions which had provoked the confusion in the first place. It's hardly a crowning achievement of discourse, let alone a successful first step in a campaign to invade a message board.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Go get me some proof stating that DE Luke is as powerful as his Peak-evolved incarnation some 20 years later, and then we'll talk.
Eurgh. Not only have you constructed a strawman for Spencer to defend, you are holding it to a higher standard of evidence than you are willing to meet.

Protip: None of us (with the possible exception of DP) have the energy or inclination to indulge in a protracted internet-war. We've thrashed out positions and lines of argumentation on most topics and most disputes consist of shorthand references to memories of such arguments. What I'm saying is that the orthodoxy has ossified into a fairly coherent body politik.

If you want to win the internet, it'll take a fair bit of effort to get anyone to confront you in a line-by-line dispute, let alone sway the opinion of the masses. Might I suggest that you try a little more humilitytact and at the very least substantiate your claims?

Force-wise, I don't remember any impressive TK feats for Sidious in Dark Empire.

Well, lack of display doesn't prove that he didn't have them. If every single character would be demonstrating moving star destroyers, it would be boring. And after all he is not Galen Marek to waist his effort on useless things.
Actually, he did display incredible feats. In fight with Yoda he was orchestrating multiple platforms laughing, while Yoda had to heavily concentrate to catch and throw a single one. And by Dark Empire he became much more powerful.
He contained so much power inside him that he was exploding on death. Very few Sith could contain such amount of dark energy inside them. Jacen used only his inner potential. He became Sith, yet, he still could experience love. And the most distinction is that he was selfless, when all Sith are as selfish as it could be. He became one of the worth Sith in the galaxy, yet, instead of meaningless domination and power last he had goals to forge better galaxy. While Sith like Palpatine could gain power beyond any Jedi, Jasen didn't get much more powerful by becoming Sith, the only extra source of power for him was his own anger and pain.

Yes, he is as powerful. Another matter is that in LotF he is much more skilled and wiser. Power doesn't grow over decades, potential is always there, with practice power limits can be reached very fast but at the same time decrease over time. Luke became very powerful by the DE, then towards NJO his potential dramatically decreased, then during NJO he got back into shape and afterwards more or less stayed in his prime. Also, he could become even more powerful in any of those times but he would never abuse Force in a way Galen did and test his limits as often.

Originally posted by Battlemaster


I'm saying that the top-tier Heavy Hitters of LotF, which are the most powerful versions of people like Caedus and Kyle, could definitely narrowly defeat a far more inferior version of Luke.

Basically, having a brain and eyes tells you that.

DE Luke would tool those guys.

Its obvious to anyone with eyes and brains. It's common sense and the only logical conclusion to reach.

Annoying isn't it?

Clarification: that is to say, arguing about administrative practices of the Prequel-Era Jedi Order is boring. Kind of like arguing about trade routes or ink monopolies: important to the fictional characters on whom the policies are imposing, but utterly irrelevant to even the most die-hard fan.]

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
And that Nihilus could defeat Sidious. And that Bane could defeat Sidious. And that Caedus would defeat Sidious. And that Bane would crush Desann. All claims for which you've provided zero evidence.






If you truly require evidence just to understand the truth of these things, then you need to go back to reading the books, and do some deep research, because you're telling me you don't know enough about Star Wars.

Evidence for debate is fine. But right is right and wrong is wrong, and either you know the material, or you don't.

If my claims actually confuse you (as opposed to merely being a breach of common conduct) then you should just go buy some candy, sit down in front of a TV and watch some cartoons.

You'll feel happier, and my posts won't stress you out.







Originally posted by Herbert Spencer

I haven't made a single claim about any of this and, as such, have no need to prove anything. I'm extremely clever that way.whip



If you aren't making such claims, then you have nothing to challenge in my arguments.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
DE Luke would tool those guys.

Its obvious to anyone with eyes and brains. It's common sense and the only logical conclusion to reach.

Annoying isn't it?



I know, now you get to revel in your Luke Fanboyism, since a few of the other kids have come over to tell me they don't like how I'm playing the game.


Luke would still get his ass handed to him by either Peak Caedus or Katarn.

Either DE Luke is very powerful, or DE Sidious is weak - pick one.

http://slackerninja.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/facepalm20collage203.jpg

You seem to labor under the delusion that I have to oppose your arguments in order to demand proof for them. I don't.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Evidence for debate is fine.

Then provide it.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
You seem to labor under the delusion that I have to oppose your arguments in order to demand proof for them. I don't.



So you don't oppose my arguments, then?

DE Sidious is simply superior to Caedus. Is there even a question here?

If I say that Yoda could kill Maul, do I have to provide evidence?

We've never seen Yoda kill Maul before, after all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
DE Sidious is simply superior to Caedus. Is there even a question here?


Yes, I know, with a Force Storm, and likely in the company of a Dark Nexus.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
So you don't oppose my arguments, then?

Whether or not I oppose or support your arguments is irrelevant, but I unambiguously oppose your reluctance to provide evidence for your claims. Your appeals to some sort of previously established objective fact that Nihilus is more powerful than Sidious or that Bane could defeat Desann don't actually make it so.

No, he could kick his ass even without them. The man made Galen Marek look like a chump, Caedus doesn't even compare.

If there isn't room for the Force Storm, then we're left with the guy that DE Luke tooled.

The same Luke that had trouble defeating a Padawan years later, and a Luke much inferior to the one Caedus gave hell to.

How weak is Caedus supposed to be, exactly?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
If I say that Yoda could kill Maul, do I have to provide evidence?

I see your poorly developed intellectual fingers are beginning to grasp the concept with all the dexterity of a victim of Lou Gehrig's disease.

This is generally how it works.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
If there isn't room for the Force Storm, then we're left with the guy that DE Luke tooled.

The same Luke that had trouble defeating a Padawan years later, and a Luke much inferior to the one Caedus gave hell to.

How weak is Caedus supposed to be, exactly?

Compared to DE Sidious? I'm thinking a limp-wristed choir boy preparing to take it up the pooper as a good comparison.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Whether or not I oppose or support your arguments is irrelevant, but I unambiguously oppose your reluctance to provide evidence for your claims. Your appeals to some sort of previously established objective fact that Nihilus is more powerful than Sidious or that Bane could defeat Desann don't actually make it so.



So if I said Yoda could kill Maul, I would be wrong there?


Would I need actual evidence provided on a post to show that RotS Mace Windu could kill Zett Jukassa?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Compared to DE Sidious? I'm thinking a limp-wristed choir boy preparing to take it up the pooper.



How did he defeat Kyle then?

The same Kyle far evolved from the one that destroyed Jerec and Desann and the same Kyle who killed countless opponants in the conflicts since then?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
How did he defeat Kyle then?

The same Kyle far evolved from the one that destroyed Jerec and Desann and the same Kyle who killed countless opponants in the conflicts since then?

I believe he threw a car at him.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

Luke would still get his ass handed to him by either Peak Caedus or Katarn.

By Caedus most likely, by Katarn very doubtfully.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

Either DE Luke is very powerful, or DE Sidious is weak - pick one.
De Luke is very powerful as Jedi. DE Sidioust is very powerful as Sith, comparing power of Jedi and Sith doesn't make sense.

I understand the need for evidence in posts, but George Lucas doesn't specify each factoid in blood.

Understanding different Jedi and Sith, it's fairly easy to see who would kill the other.

Originally posted by Arhael
By Caedus most likely, by Katarn very doubtfully.


This.




Originally posted by Arhael

De Luke is very powerful as Jedi. DE Sidioust is very powerful as Sith, comparing power of Jedi and Sith doesn't make sense.


lol..

Originally posted by Nephthys
I believe he threw a car at him.


Should we disregard that feat then?


Perhaps Caedus is very likely overhyped, as you would say.

Then again, he might have something in common with Sidious, then..

It seems that the entire point, like the evidence, eludes you. I'll try again: I'm not interested (at the moment) in whether or not your claim is definitively right or wrong. I'm interested in whether or not it has any actual basis. Your reluctance to provide proof for your very tall, specific claims suggests that you're either lazy or insecure about the argument's validity.

In a nutshell, if you were to say "lul yoda cud kick maul's ass" you would still need to prove it.



Certainly, especially if asked.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
It seems that the entire point, like the evidence, eludes you. I'll try again: I'm not interested (at the moment) in whether or not your claim is definitively right or wrong. I'm interested in whether or not it has any actual basis. Your reluctance to provide proof for your very tall, specific claims suggests that you're either lazy or insecure about the argument's validity.

In a nutshell, if you were to say "lul yoda cud kick maul's ass" you would still need to prove it.



Certainly, especially if asked.





Most of my earlier post that spawned this argument, stemmed on the fact that DE Luke is far inferior to his Peak-Evolved version in LotF.

I put forth the observation that many of the top-tier characters in LotF could at least narrowly defeat DE Luke in combat.

That's actually not a bad thing to point out.

Given that you've challenged my earlier post, which has relatively easy rational to go by, I'm not sure what you would consider proof of Peak Katarn or Peak Caedus defeating an inferior Luke.

Perhaps because Katarn defeated Desann when Luke couldn't? And this Luke was post DE, who defeated Sidious.

I have a hard time believing that Jedi Outcast Katarn or even Jedi Academy Katarn could defeat DE Luke firmly - but flash forward a few decades and much skill and power later, and you have a Katarn that by all accounts should be able to manage it.

Also, I can prove right here at least by the fact that it's a few decades and books earlier, that DE Luke is not as powerful as LotF Luke, not anywhere close yet.

I'm just not sure what you would consider blatantly-obvious enough to give you the "proof" you require.

I don't dispute DE!Luke's inferiority to LOTF!Luke. The decades in between both series would have enabled Luke to hone his skills even further, widening the gap between them.



By all accounts?
Using your logic, Luke's inability to overcome Desann juxtaposed with Desann's defeat at Kyle's hands should constitute proof that Kyle was more powerful than Luke even then. That seems unlikely given the fact that Luke's strength in the Force vastly outstrips Kyle's and Luke has been an active Jedi much longer, suggesting his skills outstrip Kyle's own. What accounts for the different outcomes in their duels against Desann? Kyle's duel with Desann takes place during gameplay; the actual event might have looked entirely different: Desann might have had the upper hand entirely and lost due to error at a critical moment. Luke may have been restraining himself severely against Desann, a former student, who cunningly managed to exploit the situation to his benefit. That certainly lines up with what we know of post-DE!Luke, who (per The Unifying Force) has limited his Force use since his brief tenure as the reborn Emperor's apprentice. Kyle, on the other hand, is known to be much more roguish and ruthless than Luke. Given that the struggle with Desann became personal after he threatened Jan, it's likely that Kyle attacked Desann with all he had whereas Luke wouldn't.

As far as LOTF!Kyle and DE!Luke are concerned, I'm not convinced that Kyle would emerge victorious. The user Advent once made a convincing argument that Kyle was extremely talented among Luke's Jedi, but the fact is that while LOTF!Kyle may enjoy an advantage in skill against DE!Luke, his strength in the Force has never been established to be remotely comparable.

Not to mention the startling lack of evidence for Nihilus, Bane, or Caedus's victory over Sidious.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
I don't dispute DE!Luke's inferiority to LOTF!Luke. The decades in between both series would have enabled Luke to hone his skills even further, widening the gap between them.





Yeah, that much is obvious.







Originally posted by Herbert Spencer

By all accounts?
Using your logic, Luke's inability to overcome Desann juxtaposed with Desann's defeat at Kyle's hands should constitute proof that Kyle was more powerful than Luke even then. That seems unlikely given the fact that Luke's strength in the Force vastly outstrips Kyle's and Luke has been an active Jedi much longer, suggesting his skills outstrip Kyle's own. What accounts for the different outcomes in their duels against Desann? Kyle's duel with Desann takes place during gameplay; the actual event might have looked entirely different: Desann might have had the upper hand entirely and lost due to error at a critical moment. Luke may have been restraining himself severely against Desann, a former student, who cunningly managed to exploit the situation to his benefit. That certainly lines up with what we know of post-DE!Luke, who (per The Unifying Force) has limited his Force use since his brief tenure as the reborn Emperor's apprentice. Kyle, on the other hand, is known to be much more roguish and ruthless than Luke. Given that the struggle with Desann became personal after he threatened Jan, it's likely that Kyle attacked Desann with all he had whereas Luke wouldn't.
As far as LOTF!Kyle and DE!Luke are concerned, I'm not convinced that Kyle would emerge victorious. The user Advent once made a convincing argument that Kyle was extremely talented among Luke's Jedi, but the fact is that while LOTF!Kyle may enjoy an advantage in skill against DE!Luke, his strength in the Force has never been established to be remotely comparable.






Here's the problem: when Desann and Luke fought, Desann basically planned to hatch a scheme that would end up hurting and killing countless lives.

And Luke, either because he couldn't defeat Desann or didn't want to risk the Dark side by killing him, let him escape.

The idea of Luke letting a terrorist, bent of the deaths of millions and billions, escape in favor of some principles, doesn't strike me as rational likelihood.


Luke knew if Desann got away, it would likely cost the lives of thousands of innocent people, so letting Desann get away would be trading one life, for a billion.

At the end of their fight, Desann gets away, and Luke radios Kyle telling him to find him and stop him and that the galaxy was at stake, etc, etc.

It would be a waste of time and potentially a waste of a great many innocent lives, for Luke to give up and just let Kyle do it.

It seems unlikely.

Basically, Luke couldn't handle him, and he needed Kyle. That's it. Unless you have a better explanation?


Also, Luke's greatest Force feat as of Dark Empire was using TK to bring down a crippled AT-AT. Big deal.

I'm sure a Peak Katarn could likely handle that. Making DE Luke's edge in the Force against a Peak Katarn, highly ambiguous.










Originally posted by Herbert Spencer

Not to mention the startling lack of evidence for Nihilus, Bane, or Caedus's victory over Sidious.



I read a thread concerning N versus Sidious a while back. It took a long while to get through, but they seemed to prove pretty well that N would be victorious.

DE Luke is far inferior to his Peak-Evolved version in LotF Far inferior? What makes you think so? At that point he is Jedi for over 10 years. In that time he demonstrated a lot of feats he never repeated later and a lot of which were never done by any other Jedi.
Fair enough there weren't other Jedi to practice with lightsaber but he most likely practiced with droids.
He engaged twice Lumya and after constructing shoto defeated her. And she wasn't an easy foe for him in LotF.
He encountered Cronal. He fought your favorite Kar Vastor controlled by Cronal and managed to freed him. After he ultimately defeated Cronal on mental level.
Fought Datomiry Nightsisters.
Confronted Joorus C'abaot, who was portrayed as powerful as RotJ Sidious. Moreover, fought his own clone controlled by C'abaut, while having mess in his mind.

He had plenty of experience and trials to become a Jedi in his prime.
Confronting Emperor was the conclusion point, where he succumbed to darkside but with Lea's help ultimately cast it off and gained the confidence of master.
Obviously by LotF he got more skilled but not by far and his power was around the same as it is always up and down depending on how often he practices.

Originally posted by Arhael
Far inferior? What makes you think so? At that point he is Jedi for over 10 years. In that time he demonstrated a lot of feats he never repeated later and a lot of which were never done by any other Jedi.
Fair enough there weren't other Jedi to practice with lightsaber but he most likely practiced with droids.
He engaged twice Lumya and after constructing shoto defeated her. And she wasn't an easy foe for him in LotF.
He encountered Cronal. He fought your favorite Kar Vastor controlled by Cronal and managed to freed him. After he ultimately defeated Cronal on mental level.
Fought Datomiry Nightsisters.
Confronted Joorus C'abaot, who was portrayed as powerful as RotJ Sidious. Moreover, fought his own clone controlled by C'abaut, while having mess in his mind.

He had plenty of experience and trials to become a Jedi in his prime.
Confronting Emperor was the conclusion point, where he succumbed to darkside but with Lea's help ultimately cast it off and gained the confidence of master.
Obviously by LotF he got more skilled but not by far and his power was around the same as it is always up and down depending on how often he practices.






Woaw Arhael, don't steal Herbert Spencer's thunder. no2

Here you are wrong. Yes, Desann managed to run away. Which doesn't prove that Luke couldn't handle him, if Desann staid, it would be his peril.
When Luke commed Kyle, ship started moving. Luke happened to be outside the ship. He said that Kyle must stop the ship no matter what as it was heading towards academy. He never told Kyle to find Desann and stop him. It was Kyle's own initiative to confront Desann personally.

Let me elaborate on my previous statement about Caedus and Kyle.
Caedus' main advantage is the offensive use of the Force and dirty fighting. No matter how powerful Palpatine was, he never used Force as offensively as Caedus did and gave Luke pure lightsaber fight.
But Caedus would constantly use Force attacks and possibly illusions, Luke was powerful but he wasn't, yet, skillful enough in Force defenses. Moreover, Caedus effectively utilizes kicks and strikes in vital points and later uses them as shatterpoints, Luke didn't have skills to defend against it either. While DE Luke stands a good chance against Caedus in pure lightsaber fight, in all out Caedus stomps him.

Kyle Katarn on the other hand is Jedi. Jedi don't use Force as offensively as Sith and rely mostly on lightsaber. In fight with Caedus he relied only on lightsaber and didn't even try to use Force offensively. In fight with DE Luke it would most likely be pure lightsaber fight. I think you would agree that Palpatine is stronger with lightsaber, than any incarnation of Kyle, so for Luke it would be much easier to defeat Kyle, than Palpatine. The only reason I said "very doubtfully" instead of "no chance" is because Kyle was described as unarmed combat expert in NJO, so he could, also, give some sort of kicks that would give hard time to Luke.

Profiled.

Which would require Kyle being a stronger combatant than Luke, whose connection to the Force, experience, and acquired skill in Jedi combat are all greater than Kyle's own abilities.



I offered one, which you dismissed because you considered it tantamount to Luke stepping aside and letting Desann walk out the door cackling maniacally. The fact of the matter is that after his experiences with the reborn Emperor on Byss, Luke revised his philosophy on Force use that resulted in him constantly exercising restraint. This theme is addressed in the Black Fleet Crisis novels, the Hand of Thrawn Duology, and The Unifying Force. In fact, it manifested again in Luke's reluctance to face Caedus after their duel in Inferno, so terrified was he of unleashing his full might on a hated foe and succumbing to the dark side as a result.

Your theory requires Kyle's abilities to rival or surpass Luke's, which flies in the face of everything we know about both characters. Mine maintains continuity on two levels: the first in which Luke Skywalker's powers eclipse Kyle Katarn's and second in which Kyle is the more roguish, aggressive, impulsive fighter whereas Luke is much more alert, cautious, and hesitant.



And crushing a contingent of battle droids shortly before that. Still, that's one more AT-AT than Kyle has dropped.



Your certainty makes Luke's superior feats ambiguous? Unless your driver's license says Leland Chee or George Lucas, you should probably expect me not to care. DE!Luke is more powerful than Kyle and unrestrained, an advantage over JA!Luke by far.



Cool.
I read an extremely well-written and exhaustively cited essay by this forum's most recognized and skilled debater in which he proves that Palpatine is the strongest Sith Lord in the mythos.

i'm going to say:

1. Caedus
2. Sidious
3. Sidious

I think you're all gay.

I think it's just you and me, big guy. It's ok, DS. You can tell the group. We won't judge.

http://s13.postimage.org/cwu225bar/NOT_SURE_IF_SRS.jpg

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I know, now you get to revel in your Luke Fanboyism, since a few of the other kids have come over to tell me they don't like how I'm playing the game.


Luke would still get his ass handed to him by either Peak Caedus or Katarn.

Either DE Luke is very powerful, or DE Sidious is weak - pick one.

What? Lol!

Don't you worry about my "Luke fanboyism."

I've given many reasons why I think DE Luke is powerful which Im getting fed up of repeating but fine one more time:

1. Force powers - Bringing down an AT-AT Walker with the Force. Taking out a load of beasts and droids with a wave of his hand.

Force pushing DE Sidious to the wall on Byss(A Planet which according to the graphic novel was "Entirely Enveloped in the Power of the Dark Side" ).

2. Sabers- Even when he got defeated by Palps, he parried a few strikes from DE Sidious(read the words, don't just look at the pictures) and even matched him in a Saber Lock, before he went down..

And this was a stronger version of Sidious in his clone body, plus the fight being on Byss (a dark side Nexus see above).

For more proof of Palpatine's natural advantage on Byss he even says "Did you really think you could defeat me here on MY THRONE WORLD?"

3. When he did defeat Palpatine with Leia's help, she was a Padawan using only "Elementary" level Battle meditation (according to Empire's end), so the Majority of the work must have been done by DE Luke.

Now does everyone on these boards agree with me? Probably not. But as you can see I've provided an argument backing it up with evidence found in the source material.

So you want tell me DE Luke is weak? Fine by me. As long as you counter my arguments with evidence like I have done. In other words Prove it.

Edit As for DE Palpatine being weak. Well considering he has all the memories and knowledge of OT Palpatine but is in a much younger clone body, Im afraid you would have to give us reasons for us to believe he's any weaker than OT/PT Sidious. Again prove it!!


Originally posted by Battlemaster
If I say that Yoda could kill Maul, do I have to provide evidence?

We've never seen Yoda kill Maul before, after all.

If people don't agree or ask for evidence, then yes.

Although it would be a pretty simple task to prove, especially if you were as knowledgeable as you seem to imply.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Which would require Kyle being a stronger combatant than Luke, whose connection to the Force, experience, and acquired skill in Jedi combat are all greater than Kyle's own abilities.
I offered one, which you dismissed because you considered it tantamount to Luke stepping aside and letting Desann walk out the door cackling maniacally. The fact of the matter is that after his experiences with the reborn Emperor on Byss, Luke revised his philosophy on Force use that resulted in him constantly exercising restraint. This theme is addressed in the Black Fleet Crisis novels, the Hand of Thrawn Duology, and The Unifying Force. In fact, it manifested again in Luke's reluctance to face Caedus after their duel in Inferno, so terrified was he of unleashing his full might on a hated foe and succumbing to the dark side as a result.







Well, JA Luke, the Force God that he is, could have at least used TK to hurl a stone at Desann and knock him out, or at least use his mighty unstoppable TK to restrain him.

In other words, utilise Jedi-tranquility while fighting and use his unstoppable Force powers to stun him - instead of being overwhelmed in combat and being buried under debris.

Somehow in his incalculable power, Luke couldn't manage to put down the temper tantrum of a novice who likely didn't have a year of training under his belt.








Originally posted by Herbert Spencer

Your theory requires Kyle's abilities to rival or surpass Luke's, which flies in the face of everything we know about both characters. Mine maintains continuity on two levels: the first in which Luke Skywalker's powers eclipse Kyle Katarn's and second in which Kyle is the more roguish, aggressive, impulsive fighter whereas Luke is much more alert, cautious, and hesitant.






I'm sure LotF Luke's power and abilities surely eclipse Peak Katarn's - however, an inferior version of Luke some two decades earlier still eclipse Katarn in killing-ability?

I'm guessing RotJ Luke is a Force God compared to Peak Katarn, too?










Originally posted by Herbert Spencer

And crushing a contingent of battle droids shortly before that. Still, that's one more AT-AT than Kyle has dropped.





I'm sure if Kyle was an AT-AT he'd be in all sorts of trouble.









Originally posted by Herbert Spencer

Your certainty makes Luke's superior feats ambiguous? Unless your driver's license says Leland Chee or George Lucas, you should probably expect me not to care. DE!Luke is more powerful than Kyle and unrestrained, an advantage over JA!Luke by far.







Not really, considering a weaker version than that of LotF Kyle, was able to defeat an enemy JA Luke couldn't handle.








Originally posted by Herbert Spencer

Cool.
I read an extremely well-written and exhaustively cited essay by this forum's most recognized and skilled debater in which he proves that Palpatine is the strongest Sith Lord in the mythos.







I've seen people here who are able to take something incorrect and do a good job of debating about it.

Debating is fine, but being right is even better.

I'd say in terms of being factually correct, Nepthys and Silent Moose hold that position.

I can't even have an argument against either of them because they understand the material and know what they're talking about, so having to form a debate for the obvious is much less needed on their part.

Basically, I'm saying they're great debators. I've seen Gideon argue till he was blue in the face about stuff he was wrong about; debating about it with reams of erroneous data makes no difference.

I'd trust Nepthys or Stealth Moose over any other debator, any day.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What? Lol!
Don't you worry about my "Luke fanboyism!!1!!"

Edit As for DE Palpatine being weak. Well considering he has all the memories and knowledge of OT Palpatine but is in a much younger clone body, Im afraid you would have to give us reasons for us to believe he's any weaker than OT/PT Sidious. Again prove it!!




Because he had knowledge of every Sith technique, and still got whacked by Luke and/or his friends over and over again.


He had the ability to tear up a surface on a planet and still bumbled enough to the point where he couldn't handle the situation.

Caedus (though I don't like the character) didn't have Force Storm, nor the host of other abilities Sidious possessed - and he still accomplished more with his war and gave a much, much more powerful version of Luke hell.





Originally posted by DARTH POWER

3. When he did defeat Palpatine with Leia's help, she was a Padawan using only "Elementary" level Battle meditation (according to Empire's end), so the Majority of the work must have been done by DE Luke.





Oh, you caved to the Battle Meditation argument, eh?









Originally posted by DARTH POWER

If people don't agree or ask for evidence, then yes.

Although it would be a pretty simple task to prove, especially if you were as knowledgeable as you seem to imply.




If they seriously needed proof or sources for Yoda being able to beat Maul, then they probably shouldn't be debating with me in the first place.

They might be late for Preschool, or Special Ed classes, take your pick.

My expression reading this:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lztzesuDO61qbtmlq.gif

Thank you Battlemaster, you are too kind.

Originally posted by Nephthys
My expression reading this:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lztzesuDO61qbtmlq.gif

Thank you Battlemaster, you are too kind.



It's true. I have to take my hat off for that.

No one called JA!Luke a Force god, nor do you have to be one to be stronger than JA!Kyle.

LOTF!Luke, the man who telekinetically manipulated artificial black holes , slaughtered a veritable army of Yuuzhan Vong, and overpowered UnuThul in single combat was nearly killed in combat by Lumiya, a veritable pipsqueak due to her incomplete training and cyborg implants, who was in turn nearly killed by lightweight Tresina Lobi, despite assistance from rogue Jedi Alema Rar. By your reckoning, Lumiya and Tresina must each be superior to LOTF!Luke in combat.

Desann's momentary advantage owes not to superior powers, skills, or training but to Luke's restraint.



Given that JA!Katarn has spent even less time as a Jedi than JA!Luke and lacks Skywalker's unparalleled Force aptitude...? Yes?



Despite Zampano's erudite warnings, you still rely on strawman arguments. Nowhere did I claim that ROTJ!Luke is a superior combatant to LOTF!Katarn.



Almost as much as your argument's in, certainly. I suppose we can end the discussion since Kyle isn't Desann, so there's no way he could beat Luke!



I have already provided ample reasons for why JA!Luke was briefly overcome by Desann. That you deliberately neglect them in order to continue your Katarn-inspired masturbation sessions isn't my problem.



It's a shame, because good debating is a skill you've yet to learn. One would think you'd better apply your voyeurism.



Given your lack of expertise in either area, I'm skeptical.



Then you should probably plead with one of them to take the lead here.

To be fair Gideon did have a habit of being wrong, if eloquently so. I mean, some of the things he said about The Dark Knight, it was pure blasphemy.

Nonsense.

Gideon's great gift was his unassailable objectivity. Every argument was brilliantly cited, exhaustively researched, and exquisitely articulated. He courageously and cleverly identified weaknesses in his opponents' arguments: illuminated their constant use of double standards and all fled before him, wisely so, acknowledging their substantial inferiority.

And to top it off, he managed to be humble all the while. That's okay, though, I'll brag on his behalf.

He was taken much too soon.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

I'd trust Nepthys or Stealth Moose over any other debator, any day.

You'd trust Stealth Moose over Gideon? Really? Wow.

Anyway I'd suggest you weigh up the facts people present to back their case instead of just trusting certain people.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Nonsense.

Gideon's great gift was his unassailable objectivity. Every argument was brilliantly cited, exhaustively researched, and exquisitely articulated. He courageously and cleverly identified weaknesses in his opponents' arguments: illuminated their constant use of double standards and all fled before him, wisely so, acknowledging their substantial inferiority.

And to top it off, he managed to be humble all the while. That's okay, though, I'll brag on his behalf.

He was taken much too soon.

And maybe he should have kept his unassailable objectivity to himself or someone might not have had to tip off the mods as to his return in sock form.

Hypothetically.

/butthurt

Gideon clearly felt compelled to improve the ability of his peers to correctly and objectively assess information. That was his true gift to us all.

So sad that he had to die for our sins.

Also I thought Gideon was arguing against assessing information objectively.

yo, ima let you finish but Dark_Serpent was one of the best posters of all time! OF ALL TIME









I suspect Battlemasterput me on ignore.

Hey guys, do you remember Sorgo/Genesis? He was cool
hi ush

Gideon never struck me as the type who would be confused, or want to be confused for that matter, with a Messiah figure.

But I suppose it's not an inappropriate comparison?



I believe, in his final months, Gideon determined that certain information can't be assessed objectively. I.e. opinions on subjective issues cannot be construed as factual.



Lucky. Depending on the content of his rebuttal, he may grace my own list.

True, even I have to admit to feelings of inadequacy next to that marvelous man. RIP Dark_Serpent, the world is a smaller place without you in it.

http://www.gamesprays.com/files/resource_media/preview/pinkie-pie-salute-6050_preview.png

Edit: Drat, ninja'd by Not-Gideon.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Because he had knowledge of every Sith technique, and still got whacked by Luke and/or his friends over and over again.

You're just arguing in circles.

According to you, DE Sidious is weak because he got beat by DE Luke, whilst DE Luke is weak because he had help from a padawan in defeating DE Sidious.

It's like me saying Mace Windu is weak because he had the help of 3 Jedi Masters in confronting Sidious. And Darth Sidious was weak because he lost to Mace.

Confused? Yes so am I by your arguments.




Originally posted by Battlemaster
Oh, you caved to the Battle Meditation argument, eh?

It's cited in Empire's End that she used BM. That's the source you need to use for future reference.

I looked up the source myself because you had none. And I go by facts instead of just putting my faith in your half truths and speculations.

Not just you personally. I wouldn't have taken Jaunus's word for it either without the source. Simply because people have bias, give half truths or just give pure speculation.

In this case none of you gave the source, and conveniently missed out that it was clearly stated her BM was only "Elementary" Level.

A Padawan using Elementary level BM just further proves my original point to you that Jedi Master Luke Skywalker must have done the vast majority of the work in defeating DE Palpatine. The most powerful incarnation of Palpatine to date no less.



Originally posted by Battlemaster
If they seriously needed proof or sources for Yoda being able to beat Maul, then they probably shouldn't be debating with me in the first place.

They might be late for Preschool, or Special Ed classes, take your pick.

Or it could be Pro's testing your knowledge and debating ability by seeing if you can even prove a case as simple as that.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Well, JA Luke, the Force God that he is, could have at least used TK to hurl a stone at Desann and knock him out, or at least use his mighty unstoppable TK to restrain him.

In other words, utilise Jedi-tranquility while fighting and use his unstoppable Force powers to stun him - instead of being overwhelmed in combat and being buried under debris.

Somehow in his incalculable power, Luke couldn't manage to put down the temper tantrum of a novice who likely didn't have a year of training under his belt.
First of all Luke wasn't overwhelmed in combat by Desann.
And Desann did have sufficient training and mastery of the Force.

Which is odd, if you think about it. He couldn't have received much in the way of training when you consider the timeframe.

He couldn't have been a Jedi Knight, he didn't have the mandatory and arbitrary 10 years of training.

Jedi Outcast takes place in 12 ABY, same years as the Darksaber and Daala's attack on the Academy. That was only one year after Luke established the academy and Palpatine's final death.


How did Desann go from a nobody on a backward planet, to a trained Jedi apprentice-turned-Dark Jedi, find and train an apprentice of his own, and ally and ingratiate himself with the Empire Reborn movement to the point of command? Either Desann had the potential and skill-advancement of a demigod, or he actually sucked that much.

it's true. he wasn't even there at the beginning of the academy, and he wasn't there until AFTER Daala's attacks (the JA book series) He then:

A. Went to the Academy.
B. Left the Academy.
C. Joined Empire Reborn.
D. Trained Tavion/Became the leader of Empire Reborn


Less than a year, it's true, and ridiculous.

Originally posted by truejedi
it's true. he wasn't even there at the beginning of the academy, and he wasn't there until AFTER Daala's attacks (the JA book series) He then:

A. Went to the Academy.
B. Left the Academy.
C. Joined Empire Reborn.
D. Trained Tavion/Became the leader of Empire Reborn


Less than a year, it's true, and ridiculous.
Desann was second in command in the Empire Reborn, the leader was Hetrir.
Desann could be Luke's student right from the beginning. Not every single student was described in Jedi Academy. It listed several of them and rest were referred as "others" to unable adding new characters later. For example, there is no mention of Brakiss in "Jedi Academy", yet, in "I, Jedi", which describes parallel events, he is one of the first students present in the same events.

Roughly Desann had around one year. Considering that Sith don't just learn but drill Force and combat exercises, it is more than enough time.

In real life, if we don't count physical capabilities like strength and stamina, then a talented person (and Force users are talented by default) can learn any form of combat within 3 months of intensive training. And I am not talking about proper martial art with loads of philosophy and countless useless techniques but downgraded version applied in real life.

As for mastering the Force I can give some examples proving that Desann is not out of ordinary example. Lets just look at other Luke's students from Jedi Academy trilogy.
Corran Horn. At one of Academy exercises he managed to produce illusion powerful enough that even Luke couldn't see through it straight away. He left his training shortly after defeat of Exar Kun.
Yet, at Vlarnya he was terrorizing gangs by masterfully using Force illusions on them. At the same place he legitimately defeated 2-3 Jensarai. Also, Force users, with lightsabers and cortosis armor, who spent far more time in studying Force, than him.
At the same planet he performed possibly his biggest feat in life. Multiple detonators exploded near him. He managed to shield himself and absorb all of that hit and channel into powerful Force illusion for all Vlarnya to see. In the same novel he fought Jensarai master, he lost duel but was still able to use Force illusion on her. Shortly after duel he implanted thoughts into pirate Tavira and he was at that moment on a planet, while she - in a ship in orbit. Quite impressive for a Jedi with few months training, isn't it?
Kyp Durron is another example. He joined training much later but quickly surpassed in the Force all others.
Dorsk 82. One year of training. In his sacrifice he pushed away around 12 star destroyers and literally burned out as the result. Of course it was combined effort as other Jedi were channeling Force into him but still a lot of credit goes to him for being able to utilize that power to such enormous extend.

The difference in Luke's students is that he trained adult people, who had enough experience in life already. His training was simplified to daily exercises and meditations. It's not like in old republic, where Jedi training was an alternative to primary school for children and they were allowed to advance only, when master felt they were ready.
And there are more examples of those who mastered Force and combat in very short time, especially, when it comes to darksiders.

Didn't Luke did some training before the academy?

Originally posted by Q99
Didn't Luke did some training before the academy?

IIRC, he had Obi-Wan's materials to study from. The amount of training he got from Yoda was pretty barebones.

He trainedfrom Jedi Holocron in Marvel comics i belive.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You'd trust Stealth Moose over Gideon? Really? Wow.

Haha.

My god, I've been e-judged by a pseudo-sentient fool! Le Gasp!

And I've been e-judged as superior to you. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-smug.gif

Rude that high, Neph. It'll be sweeter than any accomplishments you have in the "real" world!

Yes, but what is 'real?' http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-smug.gif

The Matrix, bro. The Matrix.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
IIRC, he had Obi-Wan's materials to study from. The amount of training he got from Yoda was pretty barebones.

No, I mean, didn't he train some other Jedi before the formal founding of the Academy?

Kyle Katarn?

Kyle, others, etc.. Some more personal teaching before he got into the full founding of an academy.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yes, but Darth Power can't help it. It's just how he is.


Hey, you're the one who puts Gideon on a pedastal. I should be the skeptical one, here.

I argued against Gideon more than once, and yet still respected him as a debator on these boards.

He was one of the most knowledgeable in SW lore on these boards and based all his arguments on facts.

How you put Stealth Moose above him in knowledge of SW lore and/or in debating skills is beyond me.



Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'm not suprised you're confused.

Mace didn't need those three Jedi Masters there. They were gone for the majority of his fight, anyway.

Darth Sidious lost to Vapaad and it's user, who was one of the greatest Jedi Masters to ever live. He's not weak for that.

Need I remind you of our debate on the matter where you claimed that even if I had a 9 year old helping me in beating up a huge guy, it would still mean I "needed" help to do it.

According to your own argument style, he had help, so he needed help so that completely nullifies the entire feat. Take it up with yourself.


Originally posted by Battlemaster
And it doesn't change the fact that he needed outside help, and we all know how the power of Battle Meditation changes fights - it's why a mere Padawan with the gift like Bastilla, was so highly valued in the Republic's war efforts.

Again Leia only demonstrated "Elementary" level BM from a Padawan. And with that Luke defeated a more powerful version of the same Sith Lord Mace Windu was stalemating in Sabers. (He defated him via his shatterpoint ability).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How you put Stealth Moose above him in knowledge of SW lore and/or in debating skills is beyond me.

Agreed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I argued against Gideon more than once, and yet still respected him as a debator on these boards.

He was one of the most knowledgeable in SW lore on these boards and based all his arguments on facts.

How you put Stealth Moose above him in knowledge of SW lore and/or in debating skills is beyond me.




There are plenty of people on here that are good at debating.

If Gideon was in an argument over Hitler's hair-color with someone, and Gideon claimed it was green, even though it's black, he could still consistently hammer away at the topic, bringing up every argument he could, and there would be plenty of other people taking his side because of it.

Past history has told me that Stealth Moose has been pretty consistently right about the majority of his arguments, and at the end of the day he still takes victory or defeat like a champ.

On the other hand, if Gideon had his pride wounded too many times in a row, his posts were likely to spiral down into petty insults.

I appreciate Gideon's passion when he argues - but I value the accuracy that Stealth Moose's debates have and the grace that doesn't seem to leave his attitude.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Need I remind you of our debate on the matter where you claimed that even if I had a 9 year old helping me in beating up a huge guy, it would still mean I "needed" help to do it.

According to your own argument style, he had help, so he needed help so that completely nullifies the entire feat. Take it up with yourself.




He survived and kicked Sidious's ass, so he didn't need help for the first 10 seconds they were with him.






Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Again Leia only demonstrated "Elementary" level BM from a Padawan. And with that Luke defeated a more powerful version of the same Sith Lord Mace Windu was stalemating in Sabers.




More powerful in the sense that he was in the presence of a Dark side Nexus when he defeated Luke, and had the Force Storm ability.

Other than that, I didn't see much evidence of him being more powerful.

I'd think that RotS Sidious would murder Luke's friends during the times that they opted to off him, later on.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER

He defated him via his shatterpoint ability).



Uh. Duh.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
There are plenty of people on here that are good at debating.

If Gideon was in an argument over Hitler's hair-color with someone, and Gideon claimed it was green, even though it's black, he could still consistently hammer away at the topic, bringing up every argument he could, and there would be plenty of other people taking his side because of it.

Past history has told me that Stealth Moose has been pretty consistently right about the majority of his arguments, and at the end of the day he still takes victory or defeat like a champ.

On the other hand, if Gideon had his pride wounded too many times in a row, his posts were likely to spiral down into petty insults.

I appreciate Gideon's passion when he argues - but I value the accuracy that Stealth Moose's debates have and the grace that doesn't seem to leave his attitude.




Stealth seems to know more about KOTOR era, I'll give him that. But generally Gideon had much more knowledge. The debates between him and Borbarad were always informative (and entertaining).

Yes his opinions were fallible as are everybody's. And I know Gideon did argue with pride a lot and would hardly ever accept that his opponent might have a point. But I've not seen Stealth behaving any better.

I still face palm over the way he went at me on his pointless Savage Opress vs Obi-Wan thread. And no he definetely wasn't right there. He was proven wrong the next season when Opress defeated Obi-Wan in literally a few seconds.

I have debated Gideon and won. Just thought I would throw that out there. As a matter of fact, I'm 1-0 vs Gideon. Sorry Gideon, don't hate man. whistling

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
I have debated Gideon and won. Just thought I would throw that out there. As a matter of fact, I'm 1-0 vs Gideon. Sorry Gideon, don't hate man. whistling

Not bad JT. But which topic was it on? Hope you don't mind we judge for ourselves who won

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Stealth seems to know more about KOTOR era, I'll give him that. But generally Gideon had much more knowledge. The debates between him and Borbarad were always informative (and entertaining).

Yes his opinions were fallible as are everybody's. And I know Gideon did argue with pride a lot and would hardly ever accept that his opponent might have a point. But I've not seen Stealth behaving any better.

I still face palm over the way he went at me on his pointless Savage Opress vs Obi-Wan thread. And no he definetely wasn't right there. He was proven wrong the next season when Opress defeated Obi-Wan in literally a few seconds.

This again. You do realize, Darth Powah, that you entirely failed to prove an argument. It wasn't your conclusion I was entirely unwilling to see; it was the way in which you said "It's self-evident; therefore, it's true. Addendum to this, I saw it, therefore it is true. LOL at your credibility."

And it was entirely clear that you attacked me before the debate had even moved beyond the initial disagreement stage and ended up balls-deep into the "FU red herring rinse repeat" stage:

You:



Keep in mind you engaged in e-battle after I had already spent many pages attempting to get some better reason out of Gideon, who, for all his PT-era excess of knowledge, could not see some of the same gaping flaws that you apparently fell for as well. Already annoyed with his inability to provide a cohesive argument for himself, then you leap in with the grace of a leper ewok and mangle the English language while chirping the same mindless rhetoric again and again.

As much as it pains me dearly to not have won your e-respect, the point remains that you and I had not spoken in months if not years before that thread. Your instant-aggression followed by a pathetic excuse of "Nuh uh, I think this, therefore it is" fully paved the way for being insulted out of hand as "not worth debating", because at that point you've moved from some kind of objective reasoning to simply repeating your assertions and attacking the opposition.

This isn't to say that I hate you or anything; I genuinely don't. I just think you couldn't debate your way out of a wet paper bag, so seeing you say things I can't help but think it's like Flo Rida or Diane Sawyer telling a neurosurgeon how to do their job.

PHANTASMAGORIA! The Petty Politics of the Internet!

Janus, one time I tried to call you out for being mean. (Maybe more than once.) Please consider that sentiment to be fully retracted and stricken from the universal record.

The lines "grace of a leper ewok," "you couldn't debate your way out of a wet paper bag," and "Diane Sawyer telling a neurosurgeon how to do their job" have entered into my personal headcanon of best things ever said on KMC.

Don't ever change.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This again. You do realize, Darth Powah, that you entirely failed to prove an argument. It wasn't your conclusion I was entirely unwilling to see; it was the way in which you said "It's self-evident; therefore, it's true. Addendum to this, I saw it, therefore it is true. LOL at your credibility."

If I just said it was self-evident, so that's the end of the story, then you'd have a point here. But I went on to explain in detail how it was self-evident.

You put everything down to Savage's temporary rage, whilst I pointed out several scenes that showed he was superior to Obi-Wan even before his rage, in the Force and in Lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

You:

"Lol how could anyone possibly give wisdom to a guy who just denies clear evidence shown to him on screen.

If Lucas told you himself Oppress is a good tier above the likes of Obi-Wan/Ventress you'd still deny it. You'd probably rationalise your denial by saying he wasn't making a canon statement, or whatever crap you usually come out with to justify your insane arguments.".

So to you this is a big insult?

I believe I said after you made excuses for Savage's force feat of pushing that ship off the cliff. You were saying it's not beyond Obi-Wan (without evidence) and you were lowballing the feat saying he only pushed the stands of the ship (which wouldn't make much difference anyway, because it would still be carrying the ship's weight).

My point was, even though Im sure your not always like this, in that particular thread you were being particularly biased, lowballing and resorting to petty insults.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose



Keep in mind you engaged in e-battle after I had already spent many pages attempting to get some better reason out of Gideon, who, for all his PT-era excess of knowledge, could not see some of the same gaping flaws that you apparently fell for as well. Already annoyed with his inability to provide a cohesive argument for himself, then you leap in with the grace of a leper ewok and mangle the English language while chirping the same mindless rhetoric again and again.

Your memory of that debate is fascinating to me!

No Gideon gave good points. Then when I came along I actually concentrated on different points to him. He was focused more on the little tumble they had on Toydaria, stating he seemed to outclass them both whilst concentrating on the King.
Whilst my argument focused on his Force Prowess in pushing the ship one handed (pre-rage) and forcing Count Dooku to the floor in close combat (pre-rage). Two things which I constantly kept pointing out Obi-Wan has never managed. (Or even come close to achieving anything similar).

His post-rage feats were too ridiculous to even begin to make a comparison of him and Obi-Wan.

Then me and Gideon both pointed out that your argument is quite baseless considering the whole episode Obi-Wan never once showed superiority to Savage. Whilst Savage did on more than one occasion.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As much as it pains me dearly to not have won your e-respect, the point remains that you and I had not spoken in months if not years before that thread. Your instant-aggression followed by a pathetic excuse of "Nuh uh, I think this, therefore it is" fully paved the way for being insulted out of hand as "not worth debating", because at that point you've moved from some kind of objective reasoning to simply repeating your assertions and attacking the opposition.

This isn't to say that I hate you or anything; I genuinely don't. I just think you couldn't debate your way out of a wet paper bag, so seeing you say things I can't help but think it's like Flo Rida or Diane Sawyer telling a neurosurgeon how to do their job.

First I wouldn't say it was instant aggression. More like frustration at how this could even be a debate.

I'm sure you would find it annoying if someone made a thread of Obi-Wan vs Count Dooku, and attempted to lowball every feat the Good Count had ever done and made excuses for every time Obi-Wan lost to the Count.

It's cool Stealth I don't hate you either. If you think I'm a bad debator, that's fine as well. I've actually found debating on these SW threads has improved by debating skills in general. So I won't cry myself to sleep if you think that I'm really that bad.

And tbh your right, before that thread I don't remember the last time I had debated with you.

But I've seen you in other threads and I actaully don't think your all that bad Stealth! Just from my point of view with that being my main memory of you I certainly wasn't going to agree to your alleged superiority over Gideon, especially coming from someone who never once provides evidence and back's up all their arguments with "because I think so, and I know SW so well, go do your research." (Battlemaster not you).

Just checked. This was my first post on the thread.

Originally posted by Me
Saying Oppress is considerably more powerful than the likes of Obi-Wan and Ventress is Fanboyism??

The CW episodes made that clear. If you cant see that then the problem here isnt Oppress fanboyism, but Oppress Haters..

I was reacting to you calling Gideon an Opress fanboy simply for stating his abilities were beyond Obi-Wan or Ventress, something conclusively proven in the last episode. So what he was saying was true and people were trying to point that out to you from the load of evidence already pointing in that direction. But you just weren't listening.

Anyway This was your reply:

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Let's have a moment of silence for all the times DARTH POWER has left us with gems of well-thought out wisdom.

http://i51.tinypic.com/10sc5sk.jpg

So I would suggest it was you who took a losing argument and got personal in attacking others on that losing stance right from the start.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not bad JT. But which topic was it on? Hope you don't mind we judge for ourselves who won

Had to do with Mace Windu legitimately defeating Darth Sidious (in which Gideon argued that Sidious was holding back, despite GL's statements to the contrary indicating that Mace Windu "overpowered" Sidious).

One cannot be "overpowered" when holding back. If I'm wrestling w/ my son, and I'm obviously holding back and allow him to win, it cannot accurately be said that has truly "overpowered" me.

Gideon, out of frustration regarding this analogy I suppose, chose to place me on ignore after a few rounds of posting back and forth.

Gideon is DEFINITELY one of the most thorough and effective debaters here (far better than me - I'm smart enough to pick my fights though). However, he is by no means unbeatable.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Had to do with Mace Windu legitimately defeating Darth Sidious (in which Gideon argued that Sidious was holding back, despite GL's statements to the contrary indicating that Mace Windu "overpowered" Sidious).

One cannot be "overpowered" when holding back. If I'm wrestling w/ my son, and I'm obviously holding back and allow him to win, it cannot accurately be said that has truly "overpowered" me.

Gideon, out of frustration regarding this analogy I suppose, chose to place me on ignore after a few rounds of posting back and forth.

Gideon is DEFINITELY one of the most thorough and effective debaters here (far better than me - I'm smart enough to pick my fights though). However, he is by no means unbeatable.

I used to think he purposefully lost the FL portion of the fight due to the description in the novel and Lucas saying he added the bit later with Sidious pretending to be weak.

But I think it was Borbarad who posted extracts from the script which kind of proved that both Yoda and Windu overpowered Palpatine in combat.

I also decided the whole FL debate was pointless anyway because the fact is Windu could have killed Sidious before he even began shooting his FL. The guy had his Saber to his throat.

Yes Gideon was not always right, and did show bias at times and had shit loads of pride Lol. But even fighting against him you had to appreciate his SW knowledge and like you said his thoroughness in his research of the facts.

Him and Borbarad going at it were always the best debates on these boards Imo. Because those debates were always as informative(on both sides) as they were entertaining.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Yes Gideon was not always right, and did show bias at times and had shit loads of pride Lol. But even fighting against him you had to appreciate his SW knowledge and like you said his thoroughness in his research of the facts.

Him and Borbarad going at it were always the best debates on these boards Imo. Because those debates were always as informative(on both sides) as they were entertaining.

Agreed.

DP, I'll reply something more in-depth to you later, my apologies. A crisis has appeared.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
A crisis has appeared. ... which started right here with taxation of internets, and has now engulfed our entire system, with the oppression of the CISPA generation.

They tax the internet in Canada?

Is this to fund the new maple-scented money?

Silly yank. The Maple dollars don't need funding. Syrup up here is plentiful. We replaced water with it when we realized how much you lot will pay for a bottle of Canajun spring.

And yes, they tax the internet up here. Every Google search costs me a beaver pelt. And downloading stuff? Don't even go there, not unless you breed free range polar bear.

Have you considered being an extra in a movie? They film like 10 a month in Toronto.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
DP, I'll reply something more in-depth to you later, my apologies. A crisis has appeared.

Don't worry about it. I know Avengers is out in the US now, and every US nerd is busy watching it again and again just to make up for the extra week they had to wait

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I used to think he purposefully lost the FL portion of the fight due to the description in the novel and Lucas saying he added the bit later with Sidious pretending to be weak.

But I think it was Borbarad who posted extracts from the script which kind of proved that both Yoda and Windu overpowered Palpatine in combat.


Yup. That was me.



Gideon was good in researching the points favoring his opinion. Unfortunatelly, he was also rather good in ignoring the facts contradicting his ideas.



It's nice to know that somebody learned something along the way.

Originally posted by Borbarad


It's nice to know that somebody learned something along the way.


Yes! You should show up more often pal!

Btw what did you think of Dooku and Anakin's last fight in CW? People think it was a low showing for Dooku. I thought that at first as well but after watching it a few times I actually think it showed Dooku to be pretty uber.

I mean the guy fought One Handed the entire time, deflecting all Anakin's full blows with One frigging Hand! And he clearly had Angry Anakin defeated with the FL/TK combo Imo.

I have it on good authority that Gideon is quite flattered that he continues to define and shape the entirety of your KMC experience.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes! You should show up more often pal!


I don't know, if I should do that, while I'm rather certain that I could. Maybe.



I have to admit, that I'm currently not "up to date" when it comes to SW issues. But I suppose you're talking about their duel in episode 18 of the 4th CW season. If that's the case, I might share my opinion on it:

It seems to be correct, that Anakin is constantly driving Dooku backwards. Flooring and choking the Sith Lord, before he recovers with the FL/TK-manouver you mentioned is certainly nothing to scoff at.
However, as with all duels between Anakin and Dooku happening between Episodes II and III, we must keep the fact in mind, that Sidious probably gave Dooku the order not to kill Anakin at a very early stage of the Clone Wars, meaning the Sith Lord is probably holding back at all occasions he's facing Anakin.

While this could or could not be the case - depending on how much room you want to leave for implicit storytelling - I don't see much reason for Dooku to rely on nothing but his force abilities at the very beginning of his duel. This question becomes especialy apparent, when he's using the chair to block Anakin's lightsaber for several seconds, keeping his own blade in hand deactivated, instead of - just using my imagination here - deliver a low cut to the Jedis legs / torso, against Anakin would have had absolutely no defense.

But again, this might not follow the intentions of the CW makers, whos idea of orchestrating a fight appears to be "make one side go backwards the whole time to recover with a force attack" (really...it's becoming a clichee). So it could be, that they wanted to show us that Anakin abilities with a lightsaber, fueled by his unparalleled connection to the force, have reached a point where he could be a serious threat for Dooku. However - he is still nothing compared to the Sith Lord when it comes to the force abilities department.

So at best (from Dooku's position) he is holding back and hence "loses" the lightsaber portion of the battle, while he is still able to dominate Skywalker via the Force. At worst case, the latter still applies, but instead of holding back, the Count was simple overpowerd by the raw strength of Skywalkers lightsaber technique. Either way, I don't see how anybody could say this is a low showing for Dooku. Especially since we're talking about the CW series here, which has a tendency for making the villain characters (Ventress, Grievous) look rather stupid.

Interesting post.

For what it's worth, according to Dave Filoni, Sidious is not pulling his punches with Anakin this early on in The Clone Wars. "If Dooku killed Anakin there, it just meant Anakin wouldn't be the next Sith apprentice. He's not pulling him out of battles to protect him. If he can't survive this war, he won't be a Sith Lord."

http://forcecast.net/story/topstory/Weekly_ForceCast_May_4_2012_145329.asp

^ The 15:00 mark.

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
For what it's worth, according to Dave Filoni, Sidious is not pulling his punches with Anakin this early on in The Clone Wars. "If Dooku killed Anakin there, it just meant Anakin wouldn't be the next Sith apprentice. He's not pulling him out of battles to protect him. If he can't survive this war, he won't be a Sith Lord."

http://forcecast.net/story/topstory/Weekly_ForceCast_May_4_2012_145329.asp

^ The 15:00 mark.

Firstly: I'm fortunatelly smart enough to figure out, that it was the 1:15:00 mark you were talking about.

Secondly: Sticking to the usual modus operandi of a certain individual, you have forgotten to provide the context of the quote.

1)
David Filoni starts talking about the issue with the words "I don't subscribe to the idea either, that Palpatine would in any way protect Anakin". This makes very clear, that he is voicing his personal opinion and nothing more. It is also apparent that you've added the "this early in the Clone Wars" bit up there, since Filoni is talking about the entirety of the Clone Wars including the last duel between Skywalker and Dooku - for which we have canon information contradicting Filonis personal opinion.

2)
The next interesting aspect you have forgotten to mention comes after the bit you've quoted: "The Emperor puts Anakin into situations, where he can tap into his anger and hate and agression." This indicates that the situation in which Anakin has to fight - especially against Dooku - he is already aproaching the state of being, that is commonly refered to as "the Zone" in this forum. If that's the case, whether Dooku is holding back or not is of little consequence.

However. In consideration of the fight between Anakin and Dooku in RotS, I find it highly unlikely that Anakin - without tapping into his potential using his darker emotions - should be able to overcome Count Dooku in a fight. And he's definitely not able to counter Dookus vastly superior command of the force, which is something apparent in all of their confrontations.

^ From what I've seen Anakin seems to begin entering his "Zone" state when the people he cares most about are in danger.

In ROTS it was Palpatine and Kenobi.

In the Mortis trilogy, it was Obi-Wan and Ashoka.

In the episode we're talking about it was just Palpatine. So it was definitely Angry Uber Anakin. Which we can tell from his line "Should have quit while you were still alive Dooku."

Also the whole confrontation has clearly been set up by Palpatine so I agree it's unlikely Palpatine gave permission to the Count to kill him. We know he wants Anakin as his apprentice. He's just waiting for him to be strong enough which he keeps testing with these fights.

So I will have to disagree with Filoni's opinion there (if that's allowed).

Also Borbarad I disagree Dooku was being out dueled by Anakin. He was giving ground, possibly being forced backwards. But it was a kick from Anakin that put Dooku to the floor.
We know from the ROTS fight that this could easily happen the other way around as well.

Also Borbarad I think when Anakin is in his full "Zone" state (like when he killed Dooku) he is also tremendously powerful in the Force.

The evidence being him dominating the Son and the Daughter with Force TK in the Mortis trilogy.

So I do think in his full "Zone" state he could quite possibly defeat any Jedi/Sith.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ From what I've seen Anakin seems to begin entering his "Zone" state when the people he cares most about are in danger. So... he's Gohan.

Borbarad
Secondly: Sticking to the usual modus operandi of a certain individual, you have forgotten to provide the context of the quote.

1)
David Filoni starts talking about the issue with the words "I don't subscribe to the idea either, that Palpatine would in any way protect Anakin". This makes very clear, that he is voicing his personal opinion and nothing more. It is also apparent that you've added the "this early in the Clone Wars" bit up there, since Filoni is talking about the entirety of the Clone Wars including the last duel between Skywalker and Dooku - for which we have canon information contradicting Filonis personal opinion.

Which is why I said "for what it's worth" and "according to Dave Filoni", not "according to George Lucas." But, as you subscribe to the modus operandi of a certain Dooku fanboy, I understand why this opinion offends you.



No one here claimed otherwise, my love. I simply provided you with Filoni's opinion, satisfying my Samaritan obligation to inform the ignorant.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also Borbarad I disagree Dooku was being out dueled by Anakin. He was giving ground, possibly being forced backwards. But it was a kick from Anakin that put Dooku to the floor.
We know from the ROTS fight that this could easily happen the other way around as well.

It was also a kick that disarmed Sidious in his duel with Mace Windu. Anakin in RotS likewise utilized a rather uncommon manouver to defeat Dooku. That is part of the dueling, even though it may not be part of the swordfighting finesse of a Jedi / Sith.



To be honest: I don't know. There is nothing indicating, that Anakin could overcome powerful force use while in that state. In fact we have Lucas himself indirectly stating, that Anakin wouldn't have been able to overcome Sidious at the time of RotS, which probably includes "Zonakin". It might be, that Anakin could shrug off stuff like Force lightning from Sidious, but I wouldn't base an argument on that.



This is another problematic issue. During the action you're mentioning in the Mortis trilogy, Anakin is apparently using the Force energy of the planet itself (which Obi-Wan tells him to do just moments before). But there, he is not in the zone (Obi-Wan would have spotted dark emotions), nor was he able to replicate that feat when he had to deal with the son later in the story arc.

In that regard, Anakin might fail - despite his vast potential - because he lacks the refinement or control to put it into action, even if he goes into the "zone". A capable force user might still kill him in that state, if force attacks can be utilized. In lightsaber combat, Anakin simple decides to win and...does it. At least according to the RotS novelization.

@MewlingQuim


I wonder where you got the idea from that I was "offended" by the opinion. Because I pointed out the flaws in your way of introducing it? I'm just teaching.



"Ignorance" is usually defined by overlooking something important. I wonder how important Dave Filoni's - canon defying - opinion might be in the great scheme of things.
The inability of a certain individual to deliver information without omitting the context or adding bits in order to forge evidence...That seems to be a far more interesting topic.

No, because you manufactured flaws that weren't there to begin with.



More important than yours, if that's what you're asking.



I have no idea why you felt the need to manufacture a scandal. Perhaps to distract from the idea that the supervising director of the series, who works closely with George Lucas, seems to suggest that Dooku's performance against Anakin wasn't choreographed by Palpatine?

Filoni's words were introduced not as evidence but merely as a differing opinion. But I remember you're not fond of those when it comes to Dooku, among others.

Originally posted by Borbarad
It was also a kick that disarmed Sidious in his duel with Mace Windu. Anakin in RotS likewise utilized a rather uncommon manouver to defeat Dooku. That is part of the dueling, even though it may not be part of the swordfighting finesse of a Jedi / Sith.

I would personally call that overpowering, not out dueling.

Like I pointed out Dooku also gave Angry Anakin a deadly kick in ROTS, so that's something that could potentially work either way with those two.



Originally posted by Borbarad
To be honest: I don't know. There is nothing indicating, that Anakin could overcome powerful force use while in that state. In fact we have Lucas himself indirectly stating, that Anakin wouldn't have been able to overcome Sidious at the time of RotS, which probably includes "Zonakin".

Not sure about this simply because like you said Lucas said it "indirectly". He didn't clearly state that. And Lucas has made many comments which would "indirectly" suggest otherwise like:

"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emporer.." Suggesting before then(getting beaten up by Obi-Wan) he perhaps was..

He's also stated OT Vader was 80% of Sidious in power. And has compared Vader's power to that of Dooku or Maul.

So I would find it difficult to accept that "Zone" Anakin, who made a joke of Dooku, would not be capable of contending with Sidious as of ROTS, based on one vague statament of Lucas.

I think it better to take into account all the evidences available including the events of the Mortis trilogy.



Originally posted by Borbarad
This is another problematic issue. During the action you're mentioning in the Mortis trilogy, Anakin is apparently using the Force energy of the planet itself (which Obi-Wan tells him to do just moments before). But there, he is not in the zone (Obi-Wan would have spotted dark emotions), nor was he able to replicate that feat when he had to deal with the son later in the story arc.

Point is it shows the power Anakin is capable of accessing. The Father says "Only the Chosen One" could have done that.

That means Yoda couldn't and nor could Sidious, if we're to believe the Father.

He tends to get angry when people threaten Ashoka alone, never mind Obi-Wan and Ashoka.

Obi-Wan would likely realize he is angry at his friends being threatened, just like Obi-Wan himself gave into his rage when he saw his own Master die.

It's unlikely something Obi-Wan is going to do much about apart from telling Anakin to control his anger more.

As for not replicating the feat, I don't recall Anakin even attempting to use TK on the Son again.


Originally posted by Borbarad
In that regard, Anakin might fail - despite his vast potential - because he lacks the refinement or control to put it into action, even if he goes into the "zone". A capable force user might still kill him in that state, if force attacks can be utilized. In lightsaber combat, Anakin simple decides to win and...does it. At least according to the RotS novelization.



If we go by the novel's description of his "Zone" state he does have control and focus when he's in that state.

Duels with Dooku and achievement at Mortis can't really be compared. While with Dooku as you call it "in the zone" he uses anger and it is shown that it is not something entirely unique, can be achieved more than ones and only gives edge in the battle. While what happened in Mortis did not involve anger and is more like one of those oneness with the Force moments, which can be experienced ones in a life time, if ever and gives much greater power, than "in the zone" or other anger variations.

Therefore Mortis trilogy apart from making him more attuned to the Force shouldn't be accounted for.

Originally posted by Arhael
Duels with Dooku and achievement at Mortis can't really be compared. While with Dooku as you call it "in the zone" he uses anger and it is shown that it is not something entirely unique, can be achieved more than ones and only gives edge in the battle. While what happened in Mortis did not involve anger and is more like one of those oneness with the Force moments, which can be experienced ones in a life time, if ever and gives much greater power, than "in the zone" or other anger variations.

Therefore Mortis trilogy apart from making him more attuned to the Force shouldn't be accounted for.


"Senior Member"?

Rofl.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
"Senior Member"?

Rofl.
This achievement would never be possible without your generous contribution.