Satele and Marek vs The Sith Emperor

Nephthys

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
Such rumors are naught but lies, perpetuated by the dishonest, jealous, and sexually inadequate. Likely the source is one who is known for his dishonest posting history and obsessive, vitriolic fixation with Gideon. Equally likely is the possibility that that isn't specific enough for you, but it should get you started into a proper investigation of things.

I can't think of anything clever to say. Bum.

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
When Gothamyour argument is... ashes, you have my permission to dieconcede.

so very soon

SQUEEEE!

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
Admittedly, this is speculation because the only SW books I have on me are Plagueis and The Essential Atlas, but a favorable comparison between the strength of a four thousand year old mask to state-of-the-art hull of heavy artillery seems to be a bit of a stretch.

Because Star Wars advances so much technologically in those years?

Plus you ignored T3. Vitiate was all like:

http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/funny-gifs-john-carpenter-directed-star-wars.gif

and T3 was all like:

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs2/1095919_o.gif

Superior. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
A single gout of it is sufficient to put Vader on his knees in TFU2, though I suppose you could argue that that was a different Marek.

True. Also, wasn't that after a lengthy duel and while channelling some lightning rods?

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
Charged, perhaps. But that's just it: Revan stupidly gave Vitiate opportunity and time to gather his energies, which might not happen here. I haven't seen anything that indicates Vitiate could come remotely close to beating Marek in terms of Force prowess, let alone ragdolling him with just lightning. Besides, Marek has his lightsaber.

Even uncharged its shown that it can deal out extreme amounts of power and damage. Galen's lightning is powerful, but he's never disintergrated or melted anything with it. Vitiate is in the select few to achieve that level of power in the mythos (Bane and Sidious being the others). Granted, Marek blocked the lightning of the latter, but only during a suicide attack.

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
Possibly, but as we saw from Revan, Vitiate can be put on his ass rather handily.

And run into lightsabers.

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
Which is, again, possible. But if this comes to a duel, all evidence points to Vitiate being annihilated.

Quite possible. But I'd put them in the same tier in terms of power based on how I see the evidence.

Stealth Moose

Big trouble in Little China, good movie.

MewlingQuim

victory

i no

The Avengers will still be better.

excellent

It's certainly more static than some suggest, absolutely. But I was more or less thinking of the fact that it is unlikely that a mask would be able to replicate the strength of an AT-AT hull.

It was I who first mentioned that, son. uhuh

pfft

Destroying an AT-AT > destroying lite!R2D2.

Nein, I refer to clone!Marek's initial escape from Kamino, in which he electrocutes Vader and leaps out the window, from the very first level of the game.

Vitiate's lightning is most certainly powerful, but Marek is a physically monstrous individual (more than what we've seen from Revan), a "high end master of multiple forms" (more than what we've seen from Revan), wielding a lightsaber capable of deflecting Vitiate's pedestrian lightning (as Revan did), and his Force powers outstrip those we've seen of Revan.

Essentially, he has all the means to perform even better against Vitiate than Revan did and less reason to allow Vitiate the opportunity and time to gather his most potent energies.

wut

no u

Arhael

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm calling bullshit on both the above posts. Neither Marek or Satale are individually a match for the Sith Emperor.

Hmm. It's not a Force contest, is it?
While Vitiate's superiority in power is unquestionable, it doesn't guaranty him victory.

And I certainly put Grand Master with decades experience that could absorb lightsaber with bare hands above Jedi Knight, who happened to defeat Vitiate alone.

Also, attempting mind dominating Marek will probably just piss him of even more like pretty much everything else that happens to him. big grin

MewlingQuim

Per TFU's novelization, Marek was hypnotized by the Emperor to kill Vader. Kota's intervention broke the trance, but it was there. I could see Vitiate replicating that.

Arhael

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
Per TFU's novelization, Marek was hypnotized by the Emperor to kill Vader. Kota's intervention broke the trance, but it was there. I could see Vitiate replicating that.
Man, where were you, when I tried to prove that Sidious' mind dominating capabilities are as good as Vitiate's?!

MewlingQuim

I was around, probably under a different user name.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
Vitiate's lightning is most certainly powerful, but Marek is a physically monstrous individual (more than what we've seen from Revan), a "high end master of multiple forms" (more than what we've seen from Revan), wielding a lightsaber capable of deflecting Vitiate's pedestrian lightning (as Revan did), and his Force powers outstrip those we've seen of Revan.

Essentially, he has all the means to perform even better against Vitiate than Revan did and less reason to allow Vitiate the opportunity and time to gather his most potent energies.
In the game, Revan fought 4 powerful individuals simultaneously and managed to escape from the tough battle by using Fold Space ability. Revan, with his TK abilities, could rag-doll his opponents around the room and he could also throw gigantic rocks at his opponents. Revan also demonstrated Force Lightning Storm power.

And not to forget that Revan have endured several centuries of punishment from Vitiate.

Do not underestimate Revan. Canonically, he was the most powerful Jedi of his time.

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
Additionally, I'm unaware of any Force powers demonstrated by Vitiate that puts him in excess of Marek.
How about this feat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voh2VOb-B0w

3 Jedi Masters and the main hero (Jedi Knight) confronted Vitiate and attempted to arrest him. Jedi Master Tol Braga was particularly powerful in the Force and capable of performing decent TK feats and he also failed in this fight. The Sith Emperor overwhelmed his opponents without much effort with his Force Lightning Storm. Vitiate also turned all 4 Jedi in to his puppets after breaking them.

The main hero (Jedi Knight) was able to break free from the mental grip of Vitiate through external assistance after a long time. He was then sent after the others to bring them back.

In addition, Vitiate has demonstrated the capability to create illusions with the Force (I believe, Luke Skywalker has demonstrated this capability once). Vitiate can confuse and pre-occupy Marek with this ability and take advantage.

Furthermore, Vitiate is immortal. He can transfer his essence in to another human, if his body is destroyed.

Also keep in mind that Vitiate has impressive TK abilities. While we do not see him do much in the novel, there are two powerful hints:

1. Vitiate empowered his Elite Guards to such a degree that they could withstand Force based attacks from Revan and Meetra.

2. Vitiate prevented Scourge from striking Revan without any gesture; similar to what Yoda did to Ventress.

Nephthys

Master Tol Braga once fought a Dark Council member for 3 days straight and converted him to the lightside.

S_W_LeGenD

@ MewlingQuim

Here is the video:

PrxU-vp3IyY

Made a mistake in my previous response.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Master Tol Braga once fought a Dark Council member for 3 days straight and converted him to the lightside.
Amazing.

-----------------------------------------------------

More from Tol Braga:

http://i50.tinypic.com/350qvc0.png

Tol Braga force-pushed the main hero (Jedi Knight) in mid flight. Very impressive.

http://i46.tinypic.com/b86y35.png

http://i45.tinypic.com/2w71e93.png

Tol Braga came very close to knock-out the main hero (Jedi Knight) with this heavy thing.

-----------------------------------------------------

This Jedi Master means business.

Nephthys

Whats even better is he made the guy his padawan afterwards. Braga's a total bamf.

MewlingQuim

Not selling Revan or Tol Braga short. But Vitiate has done nothing that doesn't require preparation that compares to Marek's powers. If it comes time that blades proverbially clash, then Vitiate goes down hard.

Stealth Moose

I'm still not sure why a few seconds prep is somehow an ineffective method of defense/attack. Vitiate floored Revan who was balls-out charging him, and then spammed lightning left right and center.

This isn't FF Tactics where you need three to five turns to cast a spell; Force use prep is not unheard of and indeed is consistently referred to as an appropriate way to gather more strength for a stronger use of the Force.

You're assuming because Vitiate made efforts to gather up strength to flatten Revan (which he did utterly) that it's all he can do and therefore something like a Yoda-esque Force push is out of the equation.

MewlingQuim

Ineffective? Clearly not, since it yielded results with Revan.

A comparison between Revan and Marek isn't flattering for the former, as the latter enjoys a tremendous advantage in sheer power. As Neph pointed out, Marek is also capable of hurling TIE Fighters with his bare hands, indicating that his physical strength vastly outstrips Revan's as well, which means that it's unlikely Vitiate's pedestrian!lightning will impede Marek to the extent that it did Revan (I refer to how the impact stopped Revan in his tracks). Marek is also a Juyo practitioner, which requires him to have been a "high end master of multiple forms" and therefore absolutely lethal with a lightsaber.

Nowhere did I claim that that was all he can do. I claimed that, based on Marek's superiority over Revan, I doubt that anything less but the absolute best Vitiate can muster will threaten Marek.

Nephthys

You're underestimating Vitiate if you think that nothing but his A-game will even threaten Marek. Marek was challenged by a random Shadow Guard at one point. And he was definately threatened by Vader. Would you put Vader over Vitiate (srs question)?

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
Not selling Revan or Tol Braga short. But Vitiate has done nothing that doesn't require preparation that compares to Marek's powers. If it comes time that blades proverbially clash, then Vitiate goes down hard.

I wasn't suggesting you were. Its just that he literally told me that story yesterday and I thought it was worth mentioning.

MewlingQuim

Based on his performance in Revan, I don't. In combat, Vitiate will need to do some prep-work to take down Marek, who has shown himself to be much more formidable than Revan.

Marek is hardly peerless, but the fact that he was threatened by a Shadow Guard doesn't necessarily mean anything other than that the Shadow Guard was, himself, an extremely formidable enemy.

Let's just say that what I'm arguing here is not necessarily what I believe to be true.

That was directed towards LeGenD, with whom I have virtually zero interest in debating.

Arhael

Force Lightning Storm, Fighting Illusions, Fold Space, throwing TIE fighters with bare hands. Stick to novelizations to avoid all that colorful over hyping.

Considering that Marek's feats are enormous even in novels my opinion is that he would definitely do better against Vitiate and at least achieve that BANG effect like with Palpatine.

And he was definately threatened by Vader. Would you put Vader over Vitiate (srs question)?
Vader had lightsaber...

Just couldn't ignore this one. rolling on floor laughing

How exactly Ventress fully trying to resist Yoda is similar to Vitiate stopping Scourge, when fight was finished, his Force defenses down, he would never dare to confront Vitiate himself and was so scared of him that quite literally pissed his pants from a mind brush?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
Not selling Revan or Tol Braga short. But Vitiate has done nothing that doesn't require preparation that compares to Marek's powers. If it comes time that blades proverbially clash, then Vitiate goes down hard.
Have you watched the video?

Vitiate floored 3 Jedi Masters and main hero (Jedi Knight) simultaneously with his Floor Lightning Storm. This evidence suggests that he can easily floor Marek with the said ability.

It is not that Vitiate will run out of energies soon.

And their is no evidence that suggests that Marek can tolerate Vitiate' mind dominating powers.

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
That was directed towards LeGenD, with whom I have virtually zero interest in debating.
Well I am interested in countering your childish arguments based on gary-stu like showings of Marek in TFU.

If those fancy moves suggest anything; Marek is a failure. He should have floored Darth Vader easily and given Palpatine a run for the money. However, this did not happen.

Revan also have gary-stu like showings on the Star Forge. This did not help him against Vitiate.

KingD19

Gonna state out of the actual debate. But as for Revan's mask, it was taken from a Mandalorian and used by him. Back then I believe Beskar was plentiful enough that it was used by the Mandalorians regularly, and Beskar's basically the adamantium of Star Wars. And the mask is not 4,000 years old. I think Old Republic takes place in the area of 300 years after KOTOR 1&2, so it's still pretty new.

But all in all, to do what Vitiate did to Beskar is amazing.

ybrotes_Sargon

Originally posted by KingD19
And the mask is not 4,000 years old.

It is by Starkiller's time, isn't it?

Arhael

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan's feats are also enormous. We do not see many fancy moves like in TFU but Revan's accomplishments are well-known. Accomplishments don't equal to feats. And there is no enormous feats from him apart from absorbing lightning, which Marek happened to be able to do as well.

Which is why he totally failed with Jedi Knight.
And disarming Sith before meeting him would be very stupid as it would show that he fears them and cripple his dominance over them.

It is his own interpretation of Vitiate's power. It only shows how scared he was. And again he didn't try to resist, he wouldn't dare.

Amount of Jedi he killed means nothing as he would never dare to fight, if he thought he could lose. If he doesn't have any advantage, he wouldn't risk his life.
When he met Meetra, he didn't risk fighting her. He was scared to fight Nyriss as well as he thought her to be more powerful and in her prime.
He dared to face another Council member only because Nyriss convinced that he was old and weak and she was right.
Yet, when he faced that council member, he wasn't even able to block Force lightning. Got his ass kicked by Nyriss within seconds before she faced Revan. Got subdued by Jedi Knight.
In book he was perfect depiction of typical Sith Lord - ambitious, cunning and cowardice. In no way he was much for any powerful individual like Meetra, Revan, Malgus, Satel Shan, e.g.

Yet? It's not like I researched about Vitiate yesterday.
I grasp his power enough to know that he can mind dominate unprepared/unconscious foes and give Force lightning so intensive that very few Jedi are capable to block it.
Satel Shan while being Knight already effectively utilized Force offensively and demonstrated absorbing ability of extreme level as well as defeated Malgus, who was one of the strongest combatants, if not the strongest at the time. Moreover became Grand Master decade later.
While Marek defeated Vader and fought Palpatine, who at the time was enormously powerful as Vitiate and didn't need lightsaber. Didn't read book but at least in game Marek put Palpatine on the floor before that fatal BANG.

Either of this two have good chance one on one against Vitiate as did Jedi Knight.

Arhael

And? He still failed against Jedi Knight.

This is not assumption, this is opinion based on facts from the novel.

No it is not excuse to belittle powers of anyone. I merely point out at stupidity of comparing Ventress actively trying to resist Yoda to Scourge submitting to Vitiate without slightest attempts to resist.

Why should I have excuse to it at all as it is totally irrelevant to the subject?
Actually all feats of both Scourge and Vitiate are irrelevant. Whatever powers Scourge had, he never dared a single time to try resisting Vitiate, which makes comparison of Yoda disarming Ventress totally useless.
I gave you examples proving that Scourge would not engage stronger foe, unless circumstances suit him, while you try to counter it with his feats and combat capabilities brining out quotes as if I never read book myself. My point is Scourge did not resist Vitiate, however, Ventress did try to resist as much as possible. Conclusion, you can't compare this two things, whatever powers and skills each individual possessed.

So, is your opinion that Jedi Knight is more powerful than Satel Shan and Marek. Satel Shan, who is described as widely recognized as the most powerful Jedi of her time and Emperor's most hated foe?
And Marek, who constantly tested his limitations, which puts his in power levels beyond any known Jedi and who was much even for Palpatine.

It seems that you put Jedi Knight out of context as he singlehandedly engaged Vititate, did not get his mind raped, had fun time with his illusions and blocked his "Force Lightning Storm" for long enough to strike him down.

So what is your point? Are you saying that Vitiate's power and capabilities are beyond Palpatine's?

So, are you saying that Jedi Knight, which is still "Knight" for god sake, is more powerful and skillful, than Satel Shan and Marek? Please, that's just silly. You need to understand that Vitiate is not undefeatable and there are individuals in EU that are capable to defeat him or at least put up a good fight.
And notice, I don't say that Marek or Satel would win Vititate. I said that either of them could defeat him individually, which means that they could loose as well, I never gave definite answer like you always give about Vitiate raping everyone. And again it is not Force power contest, all goes out, Vitiate's huge advantage in terms of superior power is only part of the complicated combat equation.
Also, let's not forget that others also have advantages Vitiate lacks. For instance Satel Shan as a Jedi and very experienced and wise grand master has superior self-control and clear focused state of mind. And Marek gets so insanely angry that, while he is still no much for Vitiate in terms of power, his Force bursts are much more offensive.

ybrotes_Sargon

Rank is irrelevant; Skywalker was denied the rank of Jedi Master when he was supposedly more powerful and skilled than all of them bar Yoda and Mace Windu.

Arhael

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Rank is irrelevant; Skywalker was denied the rank of Jedi Master when he was supposedly more powerful and skilled than all of them bar Yoda and Mace Windu. Ye, I know that. My implication was that he still had room for more experience and skills.

ybrotes_Sargon

Implications should not be equated with evidence, since they are by their very nature somewhat vague. You shouldn't disparage LeGenD for not concluding Marek is superior to the Jedi Knight based on rank.

That said, Marek has shown himself to be substantially more powerful and ferocious than Vitiate in combat.

Stealth Moose

Don't discount Vitiate; he learned at the foot of Darth Bandon for a hundred years.

That's major star power right there.

Arhael

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Implications should not be equated with evidence, since they are by their very nature somewhat vague. You shouldn't disparage LeGenD for not concluding Marek is superior to the Jedi Knight based on rank.

That said, Marek has shown himself to be substantially more powerful and ferocious than Vitiate in combat.
I wasn't really weighting ranks. I just found it ridiculous that in his opinion Marek alone stands no chance against Vitiate with all his insane feats, while Jedi Knight did, who as a Jedi would never test his limitations in a way Marek did to achieve even relative equality in terms of power. I agree that Jedi Knight is also immensity powerful and his potential must be on level with Marek's but imho it is his dedication to the lightside and perfect self-control that gave him strength to overcome Vititate.

Damn. I didn't even consider it, while making my conclusions!

Nephthys

As someone playing the Jedi Knight storyline I can say that my limits have been tested quite a lot. The Knight fights Sith Lords to the death near constantly and during a war. Marek trained with Proxy.

Arhael

Originally posted by Nephthys
As someone playing the Jedi Knight storyline I can say that my limits have been tested quite a lot. The Knight fights Sith Lords to the death near constantly and during a war. Marek trained with Proxy.
That's more combat limits. For example, Anakin, also, went through war but we don't see him trying to move star destroyers, he mostly relied on lightsaber. Marek as Sith was abusing Force the way no Jedi would, also, his power was heavily boosted by his extreme anger.
But I am sure that YOU did test his limits and abused the Force beyond Marek level. smile

axel_jovan

The team wins IMO.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
And? He still failed against Jedi Knight.
According to the rumors, Vitiate was in weakened condition during his second encounter with Jedi Knight (JK).

Originally posted by Arhael
This is not assumption, this is opinion based on facts from the novel.
Prove your point. Empty claims are not sufficient.

Originally posted by Arhael
No it is not excuse to belittle powers of anyone. I merely point out at stupidity of comparing Ventress actively trying to resist Yoda to Scourge submitting to Vitiate without slightest attempts to resist.
Scourge stood no chance against Vitiate' powers. This simple fact escapes your brain.

Originally posted by Arhael
Why should I have excuse to it at all as it is totally irrelevant to the subject?
Actually all feats of both Scourge and Vitiate are irrelevant. Whatever powers Scourge had, he never dared a single time to try resisting Vitiate, which makes comparison of Yoda disarming Ventress totally useless.
I gave you examples proving that Scourge would not engage stronger foe, unless circumstances suit him, while you try to counter it with his feats and combat capabilities brining out quotes as if I never read book myself. My point is Scourge did not resist Vitiate, however, Ventress did try to resist as much as possible. Conclusion, you can't compare this two things, whatever powers and skills each individual possessed.
Another useless rant from you.

Revan failed to overpower an Elite Guard with the Force. Why? Because the Elite Guard was empowered by Vitiate. Now how is this invalid example of Vitiate's power?

Originally posted by Arhael
So, is your opinion that Jedi Knight is more powerful than Satel Shan and Marek. Satel Shan, who is described as widely recognized as the most powerful Jedi of her time and Emperor's most hated foe?
And yet she never attempted to subdue Vitiate by herself? What was stopping her?

Originally posted by Arhael
And Marek, who constantly tested his limitations, which puts his in power levels beyond any known Jedi and who was much even for Palpatine.
Why did he found Vader a challenging opponent?

Originally posted by Arhael
It seems that you put Jedi Knight out of context as he singlehandedly engaged Vititate, did not get his mind raped, had fun time with his illusions and blocked his "Force Lightning Storm" for long enough to strike him down.
See above. Now let us also focus on the other side of the story; Vitiate demonstrated greater command of the Force.

Also, Vitiate did not unleashed Force Lightning Storm in this duel. He unleashed normal Force Lightning attacks.

Originally posted by Arhael
So what is your point? Are you saying that Vitiate's power and capabilities are beyond Palpatine's?
Above OT Palpatine for sure.

Originally posted by Arhael
So, are you saying that Jedi Knight, which is still "Knight" for god sake, is more powerful and skillful, than Satel Shan and Marek?
"You are immensely powerful" (Vitiate to JK)

Get the memo?

Originally posted by Arhael
You need to understand that Vitiate is not undefeatable and there are individuals in EU that are capable to defeat him or at least put up a good fight.
Yes. But such individuals are extremely few in quantity.

Originally posted by Arhael
And notice, I don't say that Marek or Satel would win Vititate. I said that either of them could defeat him individually, which means that they could loose as well, I never gave definite answer like you always give about Vitiate raping everyone. And again it is not Force power contest, all goes out, Vitiate's huge advantage in terms of superior power is only part of the complicated combat equation.
Also, let's not forget that others also have advantages Vitiate lacks. For instance Satel Shan as a Jedi and very experienced and wise grand master has superior self-control and clear focused state of mind. And Marek gets so insanely angry that, while he is still no much for Vitiate in terms of power, his Force bursts are much more offensive.
I disagree with the point that Satele and Marek can handle Vitiate at individual capacity.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
That said, Marek has shown himself to be substantially more powerful and ferocious than Vitiate in combat.
Wrong assumption.

Arhael

According to the rumors, Vitiate was in weakened condition during his second encounter with Jedi Knight (JK).
Rumors? That is the best excuse you could come up with? The most powerful Sith in center of Darkside nexus out of power? The very Sith that upon his death toppled entire castle?

Scourge didn't try to fight, while Ventress did, yet, you compare feats. This fact escapes your brain.

It is invalid because you don't need all that immense power to stop enemy that is not going to fight back and won't resist you in anyway.

Circumstances, story arc, could be many reasons. I can put it other way around. If she was the most hated Vitiate's foe, why he didn't subdue her by himself?

Because Vader ****ing was challenging. Chosen one. Even with lost limbs his medichlorian count was surpassing others. He was slaying Jedi even after loosing limbs. Referring to him as weakling is illogical.

Whatever he demonstrated, he lost. The greatest command of the Force is not the all deciding factor, otherwise, Jedi would never defeat Sith.

Force lightning is always Force lightning, game names you use don't make it different. And why waste energy sending forks all over the place, when focused attack is more intensive?

And this statement based on what exactly? I would agree, if you said RotS Palpatine, but not OT and after.

Does it make him more powerful, than Satel Shan and Marek?

And Satel Shan capable of absorbing lightsaber energy like the Father and Marek moving star destroyer fall right into that category.

Which you are entitled to but it doesn't mean that you need to prove that others are wrong as there are facts playing in favor of both parties.

He has every right for that assumption. Vitiate doesn't have any combat experience, in fact he doesn't have any at all. From childhood he relied on his greater power. He simply overpowers others without need to try anything clever. He never even touched lightsaber. Other Sith feared him so much that were submitting to him without resistance. The very Darkside nexus on Dromund Cass belonged to him making his dominance unquestionable. While I agree that Marek is less powerful, however, in combat he utilizes his power more effectively as he was trained to use it, as he doesn't stay on one place but moves around, dodges attacks and catch enemies off guard with his powerful and instant Force attacks.

ybrotes_Sargon

Based on what we've seen from Vitiate as a duelist/combatant, I'd say he'd be fodder for anyone around Dooku's level. All of his most powerful attacks from telepathy to lightning require some sort of preparation, whereas Dooku is an extremely powerful and skilled telekinetic on the fly, one of the finest duelists in history, etc. As long as Dooku isn't a moron who gives Vitiate time to prepare his most powerful assaults (Revan, I'm looking at you), he'd waste Vitiate.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Based on what we've seen from Vitiate as a duelist/combatant, I'd say he'd be fodder for anyone around Dooku's level. All of his most powerful attacks from telepathy to lightning require some sort of preparation, whereas Dooku is an extremely powerful and skilled telekinetic on the fly, one of the finest duelists in history, etc. As long as Dooku isn't a moron who gives Vitiate time to prepare his most powerful assaults (Revan, I'm looking at you), he'd waste Vitiate.
Epic load of shit.

How conveniently you keep forgetting this awesome display of power:

PrxU-vp3IyY

Dooku will be mind-dominated even before he will begin.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Rumors? That is the best excuse you could come up with? The most powerful Sith in center of Darkside nexus out of power? The very Sith that upon his death toppled entire castle?
Players of SWTOR have revealed this.

Point is that SWTOR story is still in progress. Until it is complete and all details come to light, it is premature to boast about this victory of JK.

Originally posted by Arhael
Scourge didn't try to fight, while Ventress did, yet, you compare feats. This fact escapes your brain.
Vitiate's power felt impossibly strong. You should focus on this hint. Resisting such power would be futile attempt.

Originally posted by Arhael
It is invalid because you don't need all that immense power to stop enemy that is not going to fight back and won't resist you in anyway.
This example has nothing to with that of Scourge.

These are my intended points:

1. The case of Revan gives a hint about Vitiate's defensive capabilities against TK based assaults.

2. The case of Scourge gives a hint about Vitiate's command of TK. He could perform a TK based feat without a gesture, which is rare occurrence in Star Wars. Yoda is another individual to have demonstrated similar capability with TK.

Originally posted by Arhael Circumstances, story arc, could be many reasons. I can put it other way around. If she was the most hated Vitiate's foe, why he didn't subdue her by himself?
More excuses from you. She was reluctant because she feared that she might fell under Vitiate's influence if she confronted him. She had great responsibilities on her shoulders and her fall would be extremely demoralizing to the Republic and Jedi.

And Vitiate is not like Malgus. He uses his minions and followers to use against his rivals.

Originally posted by Arhael
Because Vader ****ing was challenging. Chosen one. Even with lost limbs his medichlorian count was surpassing others. He was slaying Jedi even after loosing limbs. Referring to him as weakling is illogical.
1. Your claim that even with all that physical loss, midichlorian count of Vader is higher then that of all others, is baseless and without evidence.

2. Vader was powerful. No doubt. However, he never demonstrated all those fancy feats that Marek did. And yet he proved to be a challenging opponent for Marek. Doesn't this gives you any hint?

That fancy feats are for attracting audience by making products and storylines more appealing? That Marek had his limits? That another powerful Jedi or Sith might be capable of matching his feats? and vice versa..........

Do not overly-rely on Gary-Stu like showings of characters to draw conclusions about their chances against other powerful individuals. This just does not works well.

Originally posted by Arhael
Whatever he demonstrated, he lost. The greatest command of the Force is not the all deciding factor, otherwise, Jedi would never defeat Sith.
Well, genius! In case of versus debates, people consider 'command of the Force' and 'skills' of the individual as vital determinants in a battle and not the possibilities involved in dramatic conflict. This is what I learned from my debates here.

Have you noticed that why people favor Luke in every battle?

Originally posted by Arhael
Force lightning is always Force lightning, game names you use don't make it different. And why waste energy sending forks all over the place, when focused attack is more intensive?
Vitiaite unleashed 12 bolts on Revan. In comparison, he unleashed just 2 bolts on Jk. Do the math now.

Originally posted by Arhael
And this statement based on what exactly? I would agree, if you said RotS Palpatine, but not OT and after.
Actually Vitiate is very similar to Abeloth in capabilities. You will understand this after playing SWTOR. Rankings in Star Wars aren't concrete any more.

Vitiate's assension to power is not natural in any sense. Midichlorian count is mute point in his case. Vitiate uses mega-powerful rituals to enhance his power. He performed one such ritual on Nathema and you can see where it got him. By the time of Revan, Vitiate already possessed full command of the dark side. But Vitiate did not stopped here. He planned to repeat Nathema again and again until he would become INVINCIBLE.

Originally posted by Arhael
Does it make him more powerful, than Satel Shan and Marek?
Most likely. He is the prophesied champion of light by Revan.

Originally posted by Arhael
And Satel Shan capable of absorbing lightsaber energy like the Father and Marek moving star destroyer fall right into that category.
Do not get me wrong. Satele and Marek are among the most powerful individuals in the whole mythos. However, Vitiate has demonstrated greater knowledge and command of the Force in comparison to these individuals.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which you are entitled to but it doesn't mean that you need to prove that others are wrong as there are facts playing in favor of both parties.
Neither Satele and nor Marek have matched the combat prowess of Vitiate;

1. Vitiate killed 9 Dark Council members (by himself). Scourge revealed this.
2. Vitiate defeated a Jedi Strike Team within few minutes. Video already shown in this thread.
3. Legend of Vitiate also gives a impressive portayal of his capabilities.

Originally posted by Arhael
He has every right for that assumption. Vitiate doesn't have any combat experience, in fact he doesn't have any at all.
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/109/3/3/godzilla_facepalm_by_epicfacepalm6000-d3ecctr.jpg

Here is hint:

"My life spans millenia. Legions have risen to test me." (Vitiate to JK)

Originally posted by Arhael
From childhood he relied on his greater power. He simply overpowers others without need to try anything clever. He never even touched lightsaber. Other Sith feared him so much that were submitting to him without resistance.
You are contradicting your above assertion (Vitiate doesn't have any combat experience, in fact he doesn't have any at all) with this one. Nice going.

Originally posted by Arhael
The very Darkside nexus on Dromund Cass belonged to him making his dominance unquestionable.
The darkside nexus on Dromund Kass is due to rituals performed by Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
While I agree that Marek is less powerful, however, in combat he utilizes his power more effectively as he was trained to use it, as he doesn't stay on one place but moves around, dodges attacks and catch enemies off guard with his powerful and instant Force attacks.
You need to understand that Vitiate has faced far more then Marek. His experience alone trumps that of any other individual in the mythos.

ybrotes_Sargon

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Epic load of shit.

How conveniently you keep forgetting this awesome display of power:

PrxU-vp3IyY

Dooku will be mind-dominated even before he will begin.

I'm not forgetting anything. Vitiate needs time and preparation to mentally subdue an adversary who underestimates him. He has access to neither here and nothing says Dooku will make Revan's mistake.

Vitiate is pretty much flaccid in terms of conventional abilities.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
I'm not forgetting anything. Vitiate needs time and preparation to mentally subdue an adversary who underestimates him. He has access to neither here
This is a misconception. Vitiate doesn't needs much time and preparation to mentally subdue an adversary. Individuals can quickly fell under his influence upon meeting him.

Vitiate had natural affinity with telepathic powers.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
and nothing says Dooku will make Revan's mistake.
Revan is more powerful and daring warrior then Dooku. He also happened to be a great strategist. Didn't work.

And Revan did not made any mistake. It is just that Vitiate was extraordinarily powerful.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon Vitiate is pretty much flaccid in terms of conventional abilities.
This is BS. He successfully prevented Revan from striking him with the lightsaber.

ybrotes_Sargon

So you agree that he needs at least some time? Concession accepted.

According to whom?

Yeah? Dooku's taller.

Whatever expertise Revan may possess in military strategy, it clearly doesn't manifest in personal confrontations, given that his plans unraveled extremely quickly both times he confronted Vitiate.

Revan deflected all Vitiate's conventional lightning and was only subdued because he tried to catch Vitiate's storm barehanded. There's no reason to assume Dooku will make the same mistakes.

Dooku's more than capable of taking Vitiate down.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
So you agree that he needs at least some time? Concession accepted.
It happens so fast that the adversary is broke before getting the chance to strike Vitiate. Therefore, no concession.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon According to whom?
According to his victims.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon According to whom?
On the basis of feats, accomplishments, and opinions of other characters, Revan is ahead of Dooku. And by a noticeable margin. This has been established in many debates.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Yeah? Dooku's taller.
Irrelevant.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Whatever expertise Revan may possess in military strategy, it clearly doesn't manifest in personal confrontations, given that his plans unraveled extremely quickly both times he confronted Vitiate.
It does manifests in his personal confrontations. You think that Revan doesn't thinks and fights mindlessely?

The following examples dismiss your baseless assumption:

1. He planned on how to deal with Basilisk War Droid
2. He planned the entire final raid against Sith Emperor

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon Revan deflected all Vitiate's conventional lightning and was only subdued because he tried to catch Vitiate's storm barehanded. There's no reason to assume Dooku will make the same mistakes.
Revan was extremely profficient with countering Force Lightning attacks. He did stopped Vitiate's FLS attack but its intensity overwhelmed him.

Also, lightsabers are not sufficient to deal with FLS attacks. I can provide examples to support this point.

Revan used his lightsaber to block Force Lightning attacks when it was feasible to do so. However, when Vitiate unleashed FLS, Revan knew that lightsaber will not work and made his choice accordingly.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon Dooku's more than capable of taking Vitiate down.
He doesn't.

Vitiate possessed the power to handle Revan, Meetra, and Scourge combined. And Revan himself is better then Dooku. Do the math now.

ybrotes_Sargon

I stopped reading here.
When Vitiate tried to enthrall Revan in round two, Revan put him on his ass. You either haven't read the book or {more likely} you're being dishonest to trump up an otherwise impotent character.

Maybe this is why no one but Arhael talks to you on a consistent basis. erm

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
I stopped reading here.
Your arguments in this thread are baseless. You cannot counter my arguments. This is why you stopped.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
When Vitiate tried to enthrall Revan in round two, Revan put him on his ass. You either haven't read the book or {more likely} you're being dishonest to trump up an otherwise impotent character.
I have the novel and I understand it properly.

Revan had planned beforehand about how he would deal with Vitiate's telepathic powers when he would confront him again. But there was no known defence against Vitiate's telepathic powers. Revan performed a special feat to prevent Vitiate from crushing his will, which every tom, d*ck, and harry cannot pull off. And time was short.

Vitiate could again attempt to crush the will of Revan but decided to handle him with more conventional tactics instead. Vitiate's capabilites were never in question. It was all about choices/decisions.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon Maybe this is why no one but Arhael talks to you on a consistent basis. erm

I do not care. Time and again, I have proven many of my assertions.

Arhael

Point is that SWTOR story is still in progress. Until it is complete and all details come to light, it is premature to boast about this victory of JK. Whatever happens after, he still legitimately single-handedly defeated Vitiate.

I am not questioning Vitiate's power and of opinion myself that he is far more powerful, than Yoda or any other Jedi to ever live. My point is that you made inadequate comparison because Vitiate needed to use only friction of his power to stop non-resisting Scourge. You should have used all these other examples on first place.

Ah? You came up with excuse yourself saying that she never faced him because couldn't handle. And saying "she feared" and "might fell under Vitiate's influence" is all naked assumptions and excuses, which you haven't got prove for.

Same could be said about her. She is not a young Knight anymore, her warrior adventure life is past and she now administers other Jedi and let younger generation to become mature.

1. My claim doesn't say surpass "all" others. I simply said that surpass others, which means he still falls into top ranks in terms of power.
2. His bad health and life support did not let him to over-exert in a way Marek did. However, he was powerful and skilled enough to mitigate Marek's overwhelming attacks. You still fail to understand that power difference is not all deciding factor and that less powerful combatants can utilize power more wisely and effectively to prevail.

Before I was against Marek stuff myself but later I discovered that most of those feats are confirmed in books, unlike your Vitiate. And it is not for you to say as you yourself rely on over-hyped portrayal of the Force in TOR like on those silly things as Fold Space, fighting illusions, Force Lightning Storm and Floor Force Lightning.

Perfect self-control, perfect mind clarity, strong morals and believes are essential factors in combat, which authors always put emphasis at and which are the strongest side of Luke apart from his superior skills and immense potential, which he happened to have as well. Indeed greatest command of the Force is important factor in terms of Vitiate but what skills he had? He simply stands and throws Force attacks without trying to outwit opponent. There is nothing skillful in his fight.

Vitiate unleashed a few instant single bolts and one continues lightning, while on Jedi knight he unleashed two continuous lightning attacks, not bolts. Whatever math you talk about, Vitiate tried his best against Jedi Knight.

Whatever he planned, it could make him more powerful or make out of him another failure like Nihilus, or he would simply explode from too much of power. Also, he can't consume planets by himself, he needs around hundred Sith to perform that feat. At his current state, he isn't more powerful, than Abeloth in any way.

It wasn't prophecy, he simple stated that it is the way of the Force that there will be someone who will defeat him. And champion of the light definition is not associated with immensely powerful.

Neither did Jedi Knight and his feats are below either of them.

It is not contradiction. Combat is essentially fighting, where enemy needs to outwit or outskill opponent. Vitiate doesn't have combat skills, he's got raw power he uses to overwhelm opponents, which has nothing clever. Should we put Palpatine against him, who's power rivals his but on top of that he is master in lightsaber combat, uses surrounding and positioning to his advantage, moves faster than I can catch and strike with Force, when least expected, then Vitiate without his significant advantage in power will go down pretty quickly.

Ok, what makes Jedi Knight better, than Vitiate? By no way Jedi Knight could be more powerful, than Marek.

Arhael

Maybe this is why no one but Arhael talks to you on a consistent basis. erm

For me it's like sport interest and a way to kill time, when nothing to do. big grin

SIDIOUS 66

Arhael

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This does not prove Palpatine can beat Vitiate. You know why? Because Palpatine is not invincible or unbeatable.
Hey! You shouldn't say that! You have SIDIOUS name and avatar for god sake! laughing

In this case I wasn't trying to prove that Sidious stomps. Generalizing, if you put two more or less equally powerful opponents and only one of them wields lightsaber, then naturally the one with lightsaber will have the advantage. I put Sidious as example because he is the only one I know, who could much Vitiate in power and happened to be master in lightsaber combat on top of that.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Whatever happens after, he still legitimately single-handedly defeated Vitiate.
It is important to understand the circumstances of this battle.

As I have pointed out before, SWTOR players have revealed that Vitiate was in weakened condition during this confrontation.

Here is revelation: http://revanantzforcesguild.com/aboutswtor/game-info/character-bios/268-the-sith-emperor-defeated.html?article_id=268%3Athe-sith-emperor-defeated

It is not wise to ignore the circumstances.

Originally posted by Arhael
I am not questioning Vitiate's power and of opinion myself that he is far more powerful, than Yoda or any other Jedi to ever live. My point is that you made inadequate comparison because Vitiate needed to use only friction of his power to stop non-resisting Scourge. You should have used all these other examples on first place.
Ok

Originally posted by Arhael
Ah? You came up with excuse yourself saying that she never faced him because couldn't handle. And saying "she feared" and "might fell under Vitiate's influence" is all naked assumptions and excuses, which you haven't got prove for.
Play the Jedi Knight story of SWTOR and you will get your answer. If you do not wish to play the game, then Youtube is your friend.

I have watched some videos of the Jedi Knight story, and I recall that the Jedi Knight offered Satele to accompany him to confront Vitiate. She refused by proclaiming that she might fall under his influence. I will check on this again.

Originally posted by Arhael
Same could be said about her. She is not a young Knight anymore, her warrior adventure life is past and she now administers other Jedi and let younger generation to become mature.
She still actively participates in battles.

Originally posted by Arhael
1. My claim doesn't say surpass "all" others. I simply said that surpass others, which means he still falls into top ranks in terms of power.
But this does not indicates that Vader is a match for likes of Vitiate and Sidious or even close to them. While Marek defeated Vader, he failed to defeat Sidious. And Sidious did not even had to use his lightsaber to stop Marek. Such is the power gap between Vader and Sidious. Now you get the picture?

Originally posted by Arhael
2. His bad health and life support did not let him to over-exert in a way Marek did. However, he was powerful and skilled enough to mitigate Marek's overwhelming attacks.
Bad health? I doubt this.

And see my explanation above.

Originally posted by Arhael
You still fail to understand that power difference is not all deciding factor and that less powerful combatants can utilize power more wisely and effectively to prevail.
Power difference is important factor. And decision making is as well. Both of these factors play a vital role in the outcome of duels. And it is not necessary that less powerful individuals prove to be better decision makers.

Just consider the second confrontation between Revan and Vitiate as an example. Revan was also a very powerful individual but he planned on how to deal with Vitiate. Revan was doubtful that he could handle Vitiate by himself due to the fact that his adversary was more powerful and dangerous. This is why Revan's plan involved Meetra and Scourge. However, Vitiate was not a bad decision-maker either. He prevented Revan from getting near him and get the opportunity to strike him with his lightsaber. Revan's companions certainly contributed to the complications but Vitiate was confident that he could handle the trio, if the need would arise - such was his power and decision making ability.

Get the picture now?

Originally posted by Arhael
Before I was against Marek stuff myself but later I discovered that most of those feats are confirmed in books, unlike your Vitiate.
I have read Marek's novels. Many of his feats have been confirmed but his feats do not prove that he is better then Vitiate. I judge Marek on the basis of his performance against other powerful individuals. And I base my opinion accordingly. Moving Starships do not count in versus battles.

Vitiate survived over a 1000 years as Sith Ruler. This accomplishment alone is testament of his extreme power - keeping in mind that Sith history is filled with betrayals and treachery. Vitiate has commanded many powerful individuals and faced many trials. And Vitiate is no slouch in combat. Time and again, Vitiate has shown the ability to handle multiple powerful and experienced individuals (Force-wielders in particular) simultaneously. His knowledge and command of the Force is obviously much greater then that of Marek and also his experience. These reasons are enough.

Once you will look beyond the veil of impressive cinematics and rendering technologies, you will get a realistic picture of these matters. If Vitiate's feats were to be shown in cinematics, audience would have been stunned.

Originally posted by Arhael
And it is not for you to say as you yourself rely on over-hyped portrayal of the Force in TOR like on those silly things as Fold Space, fighting illusions, Force Lightning Storm and Floor Force Lightning.
These powers are relevant and the characters used them canonically.

Originally posted by Arhael
Perfect self-control, perfect mind clarity, strong morals and believes are essential factors in combat, which authors always put emphasis at and which are the strongest side of Luke apart from his superior skills and immense potential, which he happened to have as well. Indeed greatest command of the Force is important factor in terms of Vitiate but what skills he had? He simply stands and throws Force attacks without trying to outwit opponent. There is nothing skillful in his fight.
See the explanation of second confrontation between Revan and Vitiate above. Point is that it is very difficult to make realistic assessment of qualities of characters on the basis of what happens during gameplay. The concept of dramatic conflict is absent in gameplay. This is where novels come in to the picture. And Vitiate was fantastic in novel. He was not just extraordinarily powerful but also a smart decision-maker.

Luke isn't that smart to be honest. On many difficult occasions, he made it through with help of others. Read his novels properly and you will understand my point. Yes, Luke is immensely powerful. However, he can loose too - to other immensely powerful individuals. Many people do not pay attention to circumstances. They always focus on outcomes. I do not follow this approach.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vitiate unleashed a few instant single bolts and one continues lightning, while on Jedi knight he unleashed two continuous lightning attacks, not bolts.
Lightning bolts are continuous unless shut down. People often confuse bolts with branch-offs. Vitiate unleashed 12 continuous bolts on Revan (during second confrontation with him) and only 2 against Jedi Knight (during second confrontation with him). Their is also noticeable difference between intensity and span of Force Lightning unleashed by Vitiate against the Jedi Strike Team (in Jedi Knight Act 2) and Jedi Knight (in Jedi Knight Act 3). Possible reason for this have been mentioned in the start.

Originally posted by Arhael
Whatever math you talk about, Vitiate tried his best against Jedi Knight.
Hint: weakened condition.

Originally posted by Arhael
Whatever he planned, it could make him more powerful or make out of him another failure like Nihilus, or he would simply explode from too much of power. Also, he can't consume planets by himself, he needs around hundred Sith to perform that feat.
Then you do not have proper grasp of Vitiate's abilities. He is very calculative of what he does and how he plans to accomplish his goals. He has exhibited far greater control over himself then Nihilus - keeping in mind that both hungered for consuming others.

Originally posted by Arhael
At his current state, he isn't more powerful, than Abeloth in any way.
He is better decision-maker at least.

Originally posted by Arhael
It wasn't prophecy, he simple stated that it is the way of the Force that there will be someone who will defeat him. And champion of the light definition is not associated with immensely powerful.
It was a prophecy. SWTOR covers this matter. And the concept of 'champion of the light' involves power factor as well. You have got this all wrong.

Originally posted by Arhael
Neither did Jedi Knight and his feats are below either of them.
Jedi Knight's story is as ambiguous as that of Revan's up till the novel part. This is why it is difficult to judge his power. However, if Vitiate praised him, then this certainly is a very powerful hint of the capabilities and potential of this Jedi Knight. So do not underestimate him. I won't be me surprised, if this Jedi Knight turns out to be second most powerful Jedi after Luke in the whole Star Wars mythos.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
It is not contradiction. Combat is essentially fighting, where enemy needs to outwit or outskill opponent. Vitiate doesn't have combat skills, he's got raw power he uses to overwhelm opponents, which has nothing clever. Should we put Palpatine against him, who's power rivals his but on top of that he is master in lightsaber combat, uses surrounding and positioning to his advantage, moves faster than I can catch and strike with Force, when least expected, then Vitiate without his significant advantage in power will go down pretty quickly.
You underestimate Vitiate's intelligence too much. Power alone does not makes you last over a 1000 years as a ruler. The examples of Revan, Traya, Nihilus and Sion make this very clear.

And you are over-hyping Sidious too much. Granted that he succeeded where others failed but his story is vastly different from that of Vitiate. Yes, in direct combat - Sidious can hold his own against Vitiate. However, Vitiate can handle him. Still I believe that both can defeat each other depending upon various factors.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ok, what makes Jedi Knight better, than Vitiate? By no way Jedi Knight could be more powerful, than Marek.
This Jedi Knight have defeated many powerful opponents. And his victory over Vitiate puts him above most Jedi in power scale. Even if Vitiate was weakened during second encounter with Jedi Knight, he still packed considerable power.

Arhael

Here is revelation: http://revanantzforcesguild.com/aboutswtor/game-info/character-bios/268-the-sith-emperor-defeated.html?article_id=268%3Athe-sith-emperor-defeated

It is not wise to ignore the circumstances.
It is not cannon. Sith can't be in weakened condition in the middle of Darksdie nexus. Want some examples of how nexuses can empower users? You could at least give the exact reason of how he got weakened to make it sound somewhat convenient.

Even if so, does it prove that she couldn't defeat him in a way Jedi Knight did? No. And it is wise decision considering stakes and her status.

Marek put Sidious on the floor, then Sidious unleashed Force lightning and Marek began absorbing like Yoda. For the while they were equal with exception that Marek did not survive the bang. He did match Palpatine, so can match Vitiate.

This is one of the main reasons he could not achieve full potential and was limited in powers.

Indeed it is. But apart from power difference there are other factors. Jedi self control and mind clarity is as important as power and it is main advantage of any Jedi. In Marek's case his unstoppable rage gives him enormous power boosts, hence, even having less power than Vitiate, he still can produce Force attacks that will surpass even Vitiate's.
Also, arguably he had chance to finish Plapatine, if not that conversation about morals and turning to darkside, which gave Palpatine time to muster power. The fight between them in no way was one sided, so you can't simply discard this feat, when considering fight with Vitiate.

YOU CALL IT DECISION MAKING????? WTF? All he did was throwing lightning bolts in that fight. Keeping Revan on distance is the only way to survive, so what exactly he had to decide? He could finish Revan with the same Force lightning. He picked up lightsaber just out of boredom and stupidity as Revan was finished anyway. Such was his power but it has nothing to do with decision making.

If Vitiate's feats were to be shown in cinematics, audience would have been stunned.Those feats prove extend of his power. And he performed well against Vader and Emperor, which qualifies as prove that he can put up good fight against Vitiate.

Qualities like confidence, mind clarity, dedication to lightside and personality play major factor in any fight.

WHAT? 0_o Isn't smart? The wisest Jedi and Grand master of New Order isn't smart? What help did he get against Vader? What help did he get in actual lightsaber combat against Palpatine? What help did he get against Slayers and Shimra? What help did he get against Lomi Plo together with UnuThul? What help did he get against Jacen? What help did he get against Baron Do Master? What help did he get, when Sith that were supposed to help him kill Abeloth, turned against him? What help did he get, when killing her second body? What help did he get, when fighting all those Sith that came in on him in packages? You are saying nonsense, no way one of the main iconic figures would be portrayed less smart or less powerful, than some game based Jedi characters. And blaming circumstances for his victories is equally stupid because there was way more circumstances playing against him.

I am not even going to continue this silly debate about nature of Force lightning, in book there is only one Force lightning. Force lightning in both cases in game was purple color, if we talk about intensity. And spamming lightning all over the place, when there is only one foe wouldn't make sense.

It's funny how you say that Jedi Knight is "after Luke", considering that he is not that smart and not that impressive either.

Ahah. Putting Palpatine (canonically the most powerful Sith ever) on level with Vitiate in terms of power is over-hyping too much? You make me laugh. While I give respect to Vitiate to say that his power is on level with Palpatine many others wouldn't, considering that he demonstrated everything Vitiate did and beyond.
Hint: Force storm.

He is certainly in top league. But it doesn't put him above other characters top league characters like Satel Shan, Marek, Luke, Yoda, e.g.
And ones again, weakened Vitiate in the middle of Darkside nexus is nonsense you desperately try to grasp to.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
It is not cannon. Sith can't be in weakened condition in the middle of Darksdie nexus. Want some examples of how nexuses can empower users? You could at least give the exact reason of how he got weakened to make it sound somewhat convenient.
You clearly have no clue of what you are talking about. Vitiate is the reason behind the Darkside Nexus in Dromund Kaas. And I fully understand the concept of empowerment. I have not played the game so I cannot give you proper explanation of why Vitiate was in weakened condition during his second confrontation with the Jedi Knight (JK). However, SWTOR players have reported this and the claim deserves attention. As far as I know, Vitiate was engaged in a mega-ritual and it was disrupted by JK.

Originally posted by Arhael
Even if so, does it prove that she couldn't defeat him in a way Jedi Knight did? No. And it is wise decision considering stakes and her status.
How would she be able to defeat him, if Vitiate would crush her will early on?

Originally posted by Arhael
Marek put Sidious on the floor, then Sidious unleashed Force lightning and Marek began absorbing like Yoda. For the while they were equal with exception that Marek did not survive the bang. He did match Palpatine, so can match Vitiate.
Sidious wanted Marek to replace Vader as his apprentice. So it is debatable, if Sidious really wanted to kill him.

Marek send Sidious packing with a Force Push initially. Sidious responded with Force Lightning afterwards. I understand that Marek sacrificed himself to save his friends. However, do you think that he could defeat Sidious (OT) in a fair duel?

Originally posted by Arhael
This is one of the main reasons he could not achieve full potential and was limited in powers.
I know this. But the point is about Vader being in bad shape as you claimed earlier. Was Vader wounded before confrontation with Marek? No.

Therefore, your claim is moot.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed it is. But apart from power difference there are other factors. Jedi self control and mind clarity is as important as power and it is main advantage of any Jedi.
I know that Jedi are calm and composed. In contrast, Sith use emotions to fuel their power. However, valid argument can be recklessness. Both Jedi and Sith have demonstrated the tendency of being reckless at young age specially. However, characters can change with passage of time as they mature and gain experience.

In this hypothetical contest, both Satele and Vitiate are more mature and experienced then Marek.

Originally posted by Arhael
In Marek's case his unstoppable rage gives him enormous power boosts, hence, even having less power than Vitiate, he still can produce Force attacks that will surpass even Vitiate's.
Logical fallacy. Marek has been trained to fuel his power with emotions. Same is true for Vitiate. However, Vitiate is not only more mature and experienced but also have greater command of the Force in comparison. Vitiate will crush the wills of both Satele and Marek and turn them in to his puppets. You are failing to understand this simple conclusion and have turned this debate in to a d**k measuring contest. Seriously, you have to learn a lot about strengths and weaknesses of these characters. Satele was reluctant to confront Vitiate due to this reason alone.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, arguably he had chance to finish Plapatine, if not that conversation about morals and turning to darkside, which gave Palpatine time to muster power. The fight between them in no way was one sided, so you can't simply discard this feat, when considering fight with Vitiate.
Point is that will Vitiate give Marek the opportunity to strike him in the first place?

Originally posted by Arhael
YOU CALL IT DECISION MAKING????? WTF? All he did was throwing lightning bolts in that fight. Keeping Revan on distance is the only way to survive, so what exactly he had to decide? He could finish Revan with the same Force lightning. He picked up lightsaber just out of boredom and stupidity as Revan was finished anyway. Such was his power but it has nothing to do with decision making.
Please refrain from posting immature garbage like this.

Originally posted by Arhael
Those feats prove extend of his power. And he performed well against Vader and Emperor, which qualifies as prove that he can put up good fight against Vitiate.
No, this doesn't. You have to focus at strengths and weaknesses of a character in question. Satele realized that she could fall to Vitiate's influence. Marek is no exception.

Originally posted by Arhael
Qualities like confidence, mind clarity, dedication to lightside and personality play major factor in any fight.
If the hypothetical contest reaches this level. Big IF.

Vitiate is very confident, patient, mature, and experienced individual for your kind information.

Originally posted by Arhael
WHAT? 0_o Isn't smart? The wisest Jedi and Grand master of New Order isn't smart? What help did he get against Vader? What help did he get in actual lightsaber combat against Palpatine? What help did he get against Slayers and Shimra? What help did he get against Lomi Plo together with UnuThul? What help did he get against Jacen? What help did he get against Baron Do Master? What help did he get, when Sith that were supposed to help him kill Abeloth, turned against him? What help did he get, when killing her second body? What help did he get, when fighting all those Sith that came in on him in packages? You are saying nonsense, no way one of the main iconic figures would be portrayed less smart or less powerful, than some game based Jedi characters. And blaming circumstances for his victories is equally stupid because there was way more circumstances playing against him.
I do not wish to prolong this debate by giving you enormous response concerning Luke's intelligence now. Luke is not a brilliant tactician or an expert manipulator. He succeeded in many challenges due to his gary-stu abilities alone. He wanted to do something and would get it done regardless of what condition he found himself in. No planning required. Of course, he improved with passage of time - personality wise and also capabilities wise. Yoda's teachings served him well.

For the duels you pointed out;

Against Vader: Father wanted Luke to join him to defeat Sidious. Vader wanted Luke to give in to his anger and he partially succeeded in this objective. However, Luke realized his mistake but got his @ss handed to him by Sidious. If Vader would not have intervened, Luke would have been dead.

Against Sidious: Luke demonstrated superior lightsaber skills for sure in the final confrontation with Sidious. However, he defeated Sidious with help from Leia. If she had not helped Luke, he would have been dead.

Against Shimra: success

Against UnuThul: success (UnuThul's attempts to influence Luke failed due to assistance from his allies and Luke's past history with him)

Against Jacen: success (but got badly wounded)

Against Abeloth: Luke got help on various occasions from different characters. Abeloth proved to be stupid for not killing Luke when she had the opportunity to do so.

But these aren't his only duels. Luke would have been killed by Exar Kun too, had his pupils not helped him. Lumiya have defeated Luke once too due to her special weapon. This is very important example of how element of surprise can change the outcome of the battle.

Originally posted by Arhael
I am not even going to continue this silly debate about nature of Force lightning, in book there is only one Force lightning. Force lightning in both cases in game was purple color, if we talk about intensity.
No comments

Originally posted by Arhael
And spamming lightning all over the place, when there is only one foe wouldn't make sense.
It makes sense, if one wishes to negate the effectiveness of lightsaber based defence.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's funny how you say that Jedi Knight is "after Luke", considering that he is not that smart and not that impressive either.
In terms of power. In terms of intelligence, do not know. However, he did remarkably well in his second confrontation with Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ahah. Putting Palpatine (canonically the most powerful Sith ever) on level with Vitiate in terms of power is over-hyping too much? You make me laugh. While I give respect to Vitiate to say that his power is on level with Palpatine many others wouldn't, considering that he demonstrated everything Vitiate did and beyond.
Hint: Force storm.
I advice you to refrain from pointing out canonical standings of characters with respect to power. Very recently, Plagueis have been declared as the most powerful Sith lord (He was the most powerful Sith lord who ever lived). In addition, some authors consider Yoda as the most powerful Jedi. So?

Vitiate has his own unique accomplishments. He also happens to be a very effective combatant. He has demonstrated greatest proficiency in the arts of Immortality, Force Lightning, and Mind Tricks. While Sidious is theoretically stated to know all kinds of Force powers, Vitiate have demonstrated greater variety of offensive Force applications in his duels in contrast.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
He is certainly in top league. But it doesn't put him above other characters top league characters like Satel Shan, Marek, Luke, Yoda, e.g.
Debatable.

Originally posted by Arhael
And ones again, weakened Vitiate in the middle of Darkside nexus is nonsense you desperately try to grasp to.
You are in no position to challenge this claim unless you have played and completed all storylines of SWTOR.

Arhael

You clearly have no clue of what you are talking about. Vitiate is the reason behind the Darkside Nexus in Dromund Kaas. And I fully understand the concept of empowerment. I have not played the game so I cannot give you proper explanation of why Vitiate was in weakened condition during his second confrontation with the Jedi Knight (JK). However, SWTOR players have reported this and the claim deserves attention. As far as I know, Vitiate was engaged in a mega-ritual and it was disrupted by JK.
Your "clearly have no clue" does not qualify. Yes, he is the reason for the nexus as was Palpatine for Byss and he stated himself about Luke's futility of trying to defeat him down there. The darkside presence is strongest on Dromund Kass, this is where Vitiate is at his peak. If you cannot give proper explanation, then stop arguing about something you have no prove yourself and as you "clearly have no clue of what you are talking about". As far as I know FROM THE GAME is that, when Jedi Knight came in, he was resting on his throne. He had no need to worry about Jedi Knight as he was protected by Scourge and countless other defenses. HOWEVER, there is possibility that his performance was affected due to blood drained from his ass as he was unceremoniously interrupted from contemplating on his throne.

His greater power doesn't make mind dominate ability absolute as proven by Revan and Jedi Knight. And you don't need to be as powerful to resist mind domination and other Force attacks as proven by countless canonical examples.

Not wanting to kill doesn't imply that he was holding back as Force attacks are not as lethal as lightsaber. Yes, I do think that Marek has all the chances to defeat lightsaber less Palpatine "in fair fight". That confrontation by no means was fair as Marek spent a lot of effort on Vader before him. However, in final straggle Marek did legitimately for a brief time equalized Palpatine. And it was more powerful version of him, than RotS.

My point is that despite all his limitations he still had immense power in him, which was enough to counter Marek, which is valid by all accounts. You need to understand the flaw in your logic. With same success I could argue that because Jedi Knight gave so much hard time Vitiate and defeated him, Yoda would stomp him no sweat but I am not that naive as things don't work like that.

This qualities I applied specifically to support Satel in confronting Vitiate. Marek is all about rage.

Whatever was Vitiate's experience and command of the Force, emotions can't be created artificially. That's where personality factor comes into place as some people can experience far stronger rage, than others. Marek's rage was bordering with madness.

No one gives such opportunities, opponents create such opportunities as did Jedi Knight.

This statement, no matter how sarcastic it is, has valid points in it. If you have nothing to say, then just keep quiet, rather then speak about immaturity.

Satelle's reluctance is demonstration of her wisdom, which is not weakness. As Jedi with immense power and great personality she has got strengths that can effectively counter strengths of Vitiate.

A a Sith he will always lack certain things the Jedi gain strength from, that is why Sith keep losing despite their superior Force powers.

I glad you admit it. Because in older post you state that there is nothing impressive about him, "if his abilities and skills are tested alone".

Against Vader:
Luke's decision was to try turning Vader back to the lightside, which he ultimately did. Smart decision to turn them against each other, is it not?

Against Sidious: Sorry, my mistake for focusing specifically on lightsabers. Though it wasn't superior skill but superior trust in the Force and uniqueness of being Jedi that all Sith lack. Focusing on smart decisions he decided to become his apprentice. Which is fullish from Jedi perspective, however, doing that he infiltrated Empire, acquired codes to destroy Devastators and destroy all clone bodies but one, which made huge difference resulting in winning the war and defeating Palpatine ones and for all. In final confrontation with help of Lea he understood his mistakes and ultimately cast it off, which is a wise decision from Jedi perspective and part of his learning process.

Against Abeloth: Abeloth, also, was getting help from Sith on various occasions. But my point is not about victories and circumstances but smart decisions and capabilities that brought him in the story arc to where he is now.

Let's focus on smartness and capabilities, rather than elements of surprise and circumstances. As I said, victories don't matter. I simply don't like you saying him not being particularly smart and impressive, when it is completely untrue considering his achievements from over 70 books.

In Revan book all forks were aimed at him. "A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor towards him". Exactly same thing we see in the game as dozen bolts are aimed at Knight and he absorbs them into lightsaber.

Luke was at peak of intelligence as Jedi. He was not politician though. But without wise decisions of what to do in one or another situation and how to participate in wars in general he would never be where he is.

And I choose to not follow your advice as DE and plenty of other less canonical feats put Sidious at least on level with Vitiate in terms of power save for combat part. He like Vitiate demonstrated greatest Force Lightning and Mind Tricks. Vitiate's immortality is the only thing that stands out.
Vitiate DID NOT demonstrate greatest variety of offensive Force applications in his duels. In book it went as far as crushing will, Force lightning and a Force push in its raw uncreative form.

Arhael

Exactly. We both can't prove otherwise and have valid evidence to support our views. I agree that Vitiate is superior to them in command of the Force. But other top league characters still have chance winning due to lots of other factors apart from power. If power was all deciding factor, then Yoda would not engage Dooku in combat but simply subdue him with the Force. Same for Palpatine fighting Luke and Windu, he was black hole in the Force, yet, decided to engage in combat. And considering that his power is beyond Luke's and Lea's even combined, they still managed to turn Force storm against him. Same for Abeloth. She was multiple times more powerful than him, yet, she did not simply mind dominate him or subdue with TK but tried other means, while for other characters simpler solutions worked just fine And against Jedi Knight, Vitiate had to try other means to defeat Jedi Knight, rather than simply mind dominate him or subdue with TK.

I have every reason and position to challenge this claim as there is no evidence and all existing evidence proves otherwise.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Your "clearly have no clue" does not qualify. Yes, he is the reason for the nexus as was Palpatine for Byss and he stated himself about Luke's futility of trying to defeat him down there. The darkside presence is strongest on Dromund Kass, this is where Vitiate is at his peak. If you cannot give proper explanation, then stop arguing about something you have no prove yourself and as you "clearly have no clue of what you are talking about".
My point is that I have not played this game myself. Therefore, I do not know the whole story. What I know is that Vitiate was involved in some kind of mega-ritual and was disturbed in the process by the JK.

Originally posted by Arhael
As far as I know FROM THE GAME is that, when Jedi Knight came in, he was resting on his throne. He had no need to worry about Jedi Knight as he was protected by Scourge and countless other defenses. HOWEVER, there is possibility that his performance was affected due to blood drained from his ass as he was unceremoniously interrupted from contemplating on his throne.
Visuals do not reveal everything. Background events and their impact must not be ignored. This is why it is important to have strong grip of story of SWTOR.

Also, your comment reveals that how much disconnected you are from the story of JK in particular. Scourge betrayed Vitiate and set the stage for his (temporary) defeat. And keep in mind that JK actually defeated an individual possessed by Vitiate, and not the Sith Emperor in his original body. The story of SWTOR is still in progression. It is premature to jump to conclusion at this moment.

Originally posted by Arhael
His greater power doesn't make mind dominate ability absolute as proven by Revan and Jedi Knight. And you don't need to be as powerful to resist mind domination and other Force attacks as proven by countless canonical examples.
What I have observed thus far is that (any) individual who meets Vitiate for the first time, easily falls to his mental powers, at minimum. The 'element of surprise' really works for Vitiate. I am not saying that Vitiate's mental powers are absolute but they certainly help him during moments of uncertainty.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not wanting to kill doesn't imply that he was holding back as Force attacks are not as lethal as lightsaber. Yes, I do think that Marek has all the chances to defeat lightsaber less Palpatine "in fair fight". That confrontation by no means was fair as Marek spent a lot of effort on Vader before him. However, in final straggle Marek did legitimately for a brief time equalized Palpatine. And it was more powerful version of him, than RotS.
Ever heard about replenishing energies with the Force?

Originally posted by Arhael
My point is that despite all his limitations he still had immense power in him, which was enough to counter Marek, which is valid by all accounts. You need to understand the flaw in your logic. With same success I could argue that because Jedi Knight gave so much hard time Vitiate and defeated him, Yoda would stomp him no sweat but I am not that naive as things don't work like that.
You need to re-evaluate your own logic actually. Vader never demonstrated powers on the level of Marek and yet he was no pushover in combat for him. And Marek realized that he could not defeat Sidious by himself. My point is that Marek had limitations. TFU reveals that it is easy to handle things not-touched by the Force or weak in the Force. However, dealing with powerful Force-wielders is the real thing. And this is where Vitiate really shines.

Even if we consider raw power, Vitiate had no trouble in collapsing that enormous building with the Force in Dromund Kaas where he faced the JK for the second time and he pulled this feat after getting struck down. Just ponder over this feat for a moment without bias.

Originally posted by Arhael
This qualities I applied specifically to support Satel in confronting Vitiate. Marek is all about rage.
And both of them are vulnerable to mental powers of Vitiate, which you fail to realize. Marek even more so due to his brush with the dark side.

Originally posted by Arhael
Whatever was Vitiate's experience and command of the Force, emotions can't be created artificially. That's where personality factor comes into place as some people can experience far stronger rage, than others. Marek's rage was bordering with madness.
And you think that Vitiate does not gets mad? When he got mad, he almost killed Revan in a few seconds. Thanks to T3-M4, Revan lived.

Originally posted by Arhael
No one gives such opportunities, opponents create such opportunities as did Jedi Knight.
Quoting Vitiate: "This remains to be seen."

Confidence is another crucial factor. Remember that Vitiate was willing to fight the trio of Revan, Meetra, and Scourge simultaneously and was still confident in his abilities.

Originally posted by Arhael
This statement, no matter how sarcastic it is, has valid points in it. If you have nothing to say, then just keep quiet, rather then speak about immaturity.
It is garbage and shows your bias. Do you realize that Vitiate is not even my favourite character? My arguments are free from bias. Yours are not.

Originally posted by Arhael
Satelle's reluctance is demonstration of her wisdom, which is not weakness. As Jedi with immense power and great personality she has got strengths that can effectively counter strengths of Vitiate.
Another excuse from you. Satele surely was wise enough to realize that she was vulnerable to Vitiate's mental influence. However, (Vitiate-haters) like you fail to acknowledge the established facts.

Originally posted by Arhael
A a Sith he will always lack certain things the Jedi gain strength from, that is why Sith keep losing despite their superior Force powers.
Your logic is flawed. Many times, Sith have fallen due to betrayals, traps, and unfair circumstances.

Originally posted by Arhael
I glad you admit it. Because in older post you state that there is nothing impressive about him, "if his abilities and skills are tested alone".
I attempt to judge things in a fair manner. For Luke, intelligence is not so important. He is so powerful that he gets away with almost everything.

Originally posted by Arhael
Against Vader:
Luke's decision was to try turning Vader back to the lightside, which he ultimately did. Smart decision to turn them against each other, is it not?
And Vader was also hesitant in destroying him. So?

Originally posted by Arhael
Against Sidious: Sorry, my mistake for focusing specifically on lightsabers. Though it wasn't superior skill but superior trust in the Force and uniqueness of being Jedi that all Sith lack. Focusing on smart decisions he decided to become his apprentice. Which is fullish from Jedi perspective, however, doing that he infiltrated Empire, acquired codes to destroy Devastators and destroy all clone bodies but one, which made huge difference resulting in winning the war and defeating Palpatine ones and for all. In final confrontation with help of Lea he understood his mistakes and ultimately cast it off, which is a wise decision from Jedi perspective and part of his learning process.
Good analysis. Yes, Luke learned from his mistakes and matured with passage of time.

Originally posted by Arhael
Against Abeloth: Abeloth, also, was getting help from Sith on various occasions. But my point is not about victories and circumstances but smart decisions and capabilities that brought him in the story arc to where he is now.
Somehow I doubt this. Luke is alive because he is a cash-cow for Star Wars. Authors always find a way to get him out of his troubles. This is one of the reasons that I dislike Luke. He is above fair judgement.

OR

We need to focus on how the enemies of Luke attempted to deal with him. Abeloth proved to be one of the worst. She underestimated Luke, wasted opportunities, and overstretched herself in the end.

Thus far, Exar Kun proved to be the wisest villain IMO because he took care of Luke quickly and would have eliminated him - had he not been stopped by Luke's students on time. Kun, being in spirit form, was out of luck.

Originally posted by Arhael
Let's focus on smartness and capabilities, rather than elements of surprise and circumstances. As I said, victories don't matter. I simply don't like you saying him not being particularly smart and impressive, when it is completely untrue considering his achievements from over 70 books.
I have not stated that Luke is dumb or not smart. But intelligence is not vital for him to succeed in his plans. His power is.

Originally posted by Arhael
In Revan book all forks were aimed at him. "A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor towards him". Exactly same thing we see in the game as dozen bolts are aimed at Knight and he absorbs them into lightsaber.
Are you blind? Where did you see 12 bolts?

This is 3 bolts: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071230062609/starwars/images/7/74/Sidious_Lightning.jpg

This is 7 bolts: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/63458/1719309-1640325_force_lightning_1_super_super.jpg

You are confusing small branch-offs with bolts.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke was at peak of intelligence as Jedi. He was not politician though. But without wise decisions of what to do in one or another situation and how to participate in wars in general he would never be where he is.
I strongly disagree with you, if you assume that Luke is the most intelligent Jedi. It can be argued that Jacen was much more smarter then him. He eliminated Luke's wife, had the courage to attend her funeral and keep his emotions in check, and managed to conceal his crime from Luke for a while until some uncovered the truth. Now this is bad@ss. Even during his major fight with Luke, Jacen relied upon his intelligence to go toe-to-toe with him (Luke) and severely injured him.

Originally posted by Arhael
And I choose to not follow your advice as DE and plenty of other less canonical feats put Sidious at least on level with Vitiate in terms of power save for combat part. He like Vitiate demonstrated greatest Force Lightning and Mind Tricks. Vitiate's immortality is the only thing that stands out.
I have no issue with Sidious and Vitiate being equals.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vitiate DID NOT demonstrate greatest variety of offensive Force applications in his duels. In book it went as far as crushing will, Force lightning and a Force push in its raw uncreative form.
Vitiate have demonstrated following to my knowledge;

- Force Lightning
- Unknown power (against T3-M4)
- Telekinetic applications
- Mind Dominating Powers
- Force Drain (against Lord Dramath)
- Force illusions
- Force blasts

Originally posted by Arhael
Exactly. We both can't prove otherwise and have valid evidence to support our views. I agree that Vitiate is superior to them in command of the Force. But other top league characters still have chance winning due to lots of other factors apart from power. If power was all deciding factor, then Yoda would not engage Dooku in combat but simply subdue him with the Force. Same for Palpatine fighting Luke and Windu, he was black hole in the Force, yet, decided to engage in combat. And considering that his power is beyond Luke's and Lea's even combined, they still managed to turn Force storm against him. Same for Abeloth. She was multiple times more powerful than him, yet, she did not simply mind dominate him or subdue with TK but tried other means, while for other characters simpler solutions worked just fine And against Jedi Knight, Vitiate had to try other means to defeat Jedi Knight, rather than simply mind dominate him or subdue with TK.
Satele and Marek - together - possibly possess the power to bring down Vitiate. However, I have clarified that Vitiate can defeat them too and simultaneously.

Originally posted by Arhael
I have every reason and position to challenge this claim as there is no evidence and all existing evidence proves otherwise.
You are not in the position to do so because I did not made this claim in the first place. This claim is from players of SWTOR.

I simply brought this claim to limelight here to prevent you from jumping to quick conclusions, as you seem to do so again and again.

Arhael

My point is that I have not played this game myself. Therefore, I do not know the whole story. What I know is that Vitiate was involved in some kind of mega-ritual and was disturbed in the process by the JK.

Visuals do not reveal everything. Background events and their impact must not be ignored. This is why it is important to have strong grip of story of SWTOR.
Provide canon script that he was involved in a "mega-ritual", it is not mentioned anywhere. That link you provided doesn't say anything about ritual, moreover, he states that Vitiate is defeated ones and for all...

Did I say story is over? Voice or not voice, he demonstrated powers natural only to him. Also, power transfers with essence, proved by Abeloth, you agreed on that as well in earlier post. The fact that he handled Jedi strike team proves that he had his full power in other bodies as well.

Indeed, but when he faces another immensely powerful foe in his prime, it doesn't happen. And what element of surprise you talk about? Marek faced Sidious, Vitiate would be nothing new. Satel, also, knows how powerful Vitiate is, so she would be extra careful and her mental barriers would be fully up.

No I don't need to re-evaluate my logic. It is proven that weaker Force user can defend against Force attacks of stronger one, that's why Vader held on. When did Marek realize that he could not defeat Sidious? He engaged him and put him on his ass. And what limitations Marek had?

I have no bias. And you contradict yourself. You try to prove that he was greatly weakened and that it wasn't his original body and now try to show greatness of his power by this feat. So he wasn't weakened after all. So much power left that entire building collapsed.

My realization is that they are both powerful enough to resist mind domination, they are far stronger, than other Jedi he encountered. And remember, Vitiate didn't use Mind domination against strike team. He overpowered them with Force lightning and only after with mental guard down he mind dominated them.
Also, Marek did not have brush with darkside, he had mastery over it as he was grown up and trained by Vader from childhood. So example with Revan and Malak struggling to control their conflicting emotions after war doesn't count.

Yes, yes and when he got mad with JK, he stumbled against lightsaber. big grin

"Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strength of his new foe...".

No, it is not biased. Decision to pick up lightsaber and walk toward Revan was indeed stupid, which nearly cost him life.

Countered by your own excuse about mental influence. First, I am not Vitiate hater. Second, I accept established fact that he can mind dominate almost anyone but I, also, accept the established fact that he cannot mind dominate other immensely powerful users in combat, which Satele Shan and Galen Marek are.

And Vitiate got defeated at his own place in the middle of his darkside nexus to a Jedi nowhere near as powerful as him. Yes, my logic is so very flawed...

You call it fair manner? Saying that Luke is not smart decision maker was biased on first place. Saying that Vitiate can mind dominate Galen Marek, who put Sidious on his ass is biased. Saying that Vitiate is smart decision maker because he kept Revan on distance is absurd, when with no lightsaber it is the only option, which even an idiot would figure out is biased While calling me biased for pointing out at his stupid decision to pick up lightsaber during that fight.
The whole topic about smart decision making is a waste irrelevant to the topic, so lets drop it entirely.

It is very biased. You try to lowball his achievements by simply blaming authors. I can say exactly the same thing, Vitiate is alive because he is a cash-flow and I blame authors for creating such a Gary Stu Sith.

She is one of the worse only in your opinion, she did go all-out on Luke. Yes, she did underestimate Luke and wasted "an opportunity". But so did Vitiate, he underestimated Jedi Knight and wasted opportunity to kill him and as the result later got his ass kicked.

Wrong and biased. Intelligence always matters more, than anything.

Seriously? You really trying to compare Force portrayed by different sources? I am sorry but that's silly. Animation of Sidious' lightning in TFU, also, didn't have 12 bolts, does it mean his lightning was weaker then? Not at all.

You did not clarify that he can defeat them too and simultaneously.
Marek alone has all the chances to defeat Vitiate as he defeated even Sidious. Satele Shan as Revan's descendant is at least on level with JK, she has a chance to accomplish the same feat as him.

I am in position because some "players" claims mean nothing, it is not canon and not evidenced anywhere. I never jump to quick conclusions.

The thing is that you don't know. You assume and believe that there was some ritual but you don't know, if it is true and no one can prove that. And I am sure that you are misinformed because such important information would certainly be mentioned at least somewhere, most likely in wookieepedia. And, while you try to show how unbiased you are, trying to give excuses like he used Force lightning instead of Force Storm and relying on most certainly false information to prove that he was much weaker to discard his legitimate loss is VERY biased.
Ones again I point out at stupidity of counting amount of bolts. Because that would mean that Sidious' lightning is much weaker, than Vitiate's, which is ridiculous assumption.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Arhael
Provide canon script that he was involved in a "mega-ritual", it is not mentioned anywhere. That link you provided doesn't say anything about ritual, moreover, he states that Vitiate is defeated ones and for all...

I can verify this. Vitiates plan in TOR is to conduct a ritual that would annihilate all life in the galaxy and absorb the Force itself, becoming a God. Naturally the Knight stops him and he is weakened. Here's proof.

'You've learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all.'

However, from what I've heard you have a choice in the end to choose to go straight to him and not allow him to recover or to rescue someone (probably your love interest). He's only weakened in the Darkside version, in the Light I believe that either he or Scourge mocks you for allowing him time to recover.

Arhael

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can verify this. Vitiates plan in TOR is to conduct a ritual that would annihilate all life in the galaxy and absorb the Force itself, becoming a God. Naturally the Knight stops him and he is weakened. Force drain entire galaxy with a single ritual? Seriously? Is it the best idea authors came up with? Spiritual crisis? The last remaining positive thoughts about TOR just vanished instantly and without any trace.

Give me back my naive ignorance!!! mad

That kiss was worth it! thumb up

Nephthys

Well it makes sense that it would be possible based on what was established about the Force in Kotor II.

Arhael

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well it makes sense that it would be possible based on what was established about the Force in Kotor II.
Nihilus was draining planet by planet. I am fine with it. If Vitiate by this ritual was gonna drain just Dromund Kaas, then fine. But entire galaxy is way too retarded assumption.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Arhael
Nihilus was draining planet by planet. I am fine with it. If Vitiate by this ritual was gonna drain just Dromund Kaas, then fine. But entire galaxy is way too retarded assumption.

No, I meant with what Kreia talked about with it being possible for tiny events to ripple outwards through the Force. Her plan in that game was also to kill the Force, and if what she said was true then imo, she could have succeeded. If it is possible to do that then taking out the entire Force isn't outside the realms of possibility.

Arhael

Well, since he never got to perform that galaxy destroying ritual, I will assume that he was just as mad as Kreya and this kind of thing would never work. And by the way draining Dromund Kaas alone with all those Sith and darkside nexuses should make him god like already.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Provide canon script that he was involved in a "mega-ritual", it is not mentioned anywhere. That link you provided doesn't say anything about ritual, moreover, he states that Vitiate is defeated ones and for all...
Member Nephthys have provided you the evidence.

I have taught him well as my apprentice. He can now proceed to have his own apprentice.

Time for you to become my next apprentice.

Originally posted by Arhael
Did I say story is over? Voice or not voice, he demonstrated powers natural only to him. Also, power transfers with essence, proved by Abeloth, you agreed on that as well in earlier post. The fact that he handled Jedi strike team proves that he had his full power in other bodies as well.
Yes. However, circumstances were different during the second clash with JK.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, but when he faces another immensely powerful foe in his prime, it doesn't happen.
It works.

Originally posted by Arhael
And what element of surprise you talk about? Marek faced Sidious, Vitiate would be nothing new.
Vitiate's mental powers will surprise him and overcome him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Satel, also, knows how powerful Vitiate is, so she would be extra careful and her mental barriers would be fully up.
Satele admitted that she can fall to his influence. Is this too difficult to understand?

Originally posted by Arhael
No I don't need to re-evaluate my logic. It is proven that weaker Force user can defend against Force attacks of stronger one, that's why Vader held on.
No. Vader held for a while but then got his @ss kicked.

Originally posted by Arhael
When did Marek realize that he could not defeat Sidious? He engaged him and put him on his ass. And what limitations Marek had?
When Sidious bombarded him with Lightning.

Originally posted by Arhael
I have no bias. And you contradict yourself. You try to prove that he was greatly weakened and that it wasn't his original body and now try to show greatness of his power by this feat. So he wasn't weakened after all. So much power left that entire building collapsed.
See above.

Originally posted by Arhael
My realization is that they are both powerful enough to resist mind domination, they are far stronger, than other Jedi he encountered.
Your realization is baseless.

Originally posted by Arhael
And remember, Vitiate didn't use Mind domination against strike team. He overpowered them with Force lightning and only after with mental guard down he mind dominated them.
You need to establish this. I have pointed out before that you do not see mental powers in action.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Marek did not have brush with darkside, he had mastery over it as he was grown up and trained by Vader from childhood. So example with Revan and Malak struggling to control their conflicting emotions after war doesn't count.
Oh really? After all the years he spent with Vader - he did not had a brush with darkside? Do you even understand that what brush with the darkside even means? Extremely illogical statement by you.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, yes and when he got mad with JK, he stumbled against lightsaber. big grin

Vitiate could afford to be careless because he was not in his original body?

Originally posted by Arhael
"Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strength of his new foe...".
Sounds like shatterpoint capability to me.

Originally posted by Arhael
No, it is not biased. Decision to pick up lightsaber and walk toward Revan was indeed stupid, which nearly cost him life.
Your understanding is flawed. Meetra was far behind and not even involved in this fight until this moment.

Originally posted by Arhael
Countered by your own excuse about mental influence. First, I am not Vitiate hater. Second, I accept established fact that he can mind dominate almost anyone but I, also, accept the established fact that he cannot mind dominate other immensely powerful users in combat, which Satele Shan and Galen Marek are.
You need to try SWTOR or stop making baseless assumptions.

Originally posted by Arhael
And Vitiate got defeated at his own place in the middle of his darkside nexus to a Jedi nowhere near as powerful as him. Yes, my logic is so very flawed...
Covered already.

Originally posted by Arhael
You call it fair manner? Saying that Luke is not smart decision maker was biased on first place.
My intended point is that intelligence is not important factor for Luke. He gets away with the situation with his power alone.

Originally posted by Arhael
Saying that Vitiate can mind dominate Galen Marek, who put Sidious on his ass is biased.
This is not a valid argument. You need to realize the difference between fighting styles of Vitiate and Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
Saying that Vitiate is smart decision maker because he kept Revan on distance is absurd, when with no lightsaber it is the only option, which even an idiot would figure out is biased While calling me biased for pointing out at his stupid decision to pick up lightsaber during that fight.
How many idiots figured this out?

Originally posted by Arhael
The whole topic about smart decision making is a waste irrelevant to the topic, so lets drop it entirely.
You need to stop making Generalizations like these: "You still fail to understand that power difference is not all deciding factor and that less powerful combatants can utilize power more wisely and effectively to prevail."

Originally posted by Arhael
It is very biased. You try to lowball his achievements by simply blaming authors. I can say exactly the same thing, Vitiate is alive because he is a cash-flow and I blame authors for creating such a Gary Stu Sith.
Baseless point.

Originally posted by Arhael
She is one of the worse only in your opinion, she did go all-out on Luke. Yes, she did underestimate Luke and wasted "an opportunity". But so did Vitiate, he underestimated Jedi Knight and wasted opportunity to kill him and as the result later got his ass kicked.
Wrong and biased.

Vitiate was not an idiot. He made decisions that he thought would serve his agenda the best. But then, Sith history is filled with betrayals and Scourge reminds us of this.

In the first fight, Vitiate defeated the Jedi Knight, turned him in to his pawn and used him. However, the Jedi Knight broke free from Vitiate's mental grip with help from another Jedi Master.

In the second fight, the Jedi Knight fought Vitiate on his own terms. Thanks to Scourge for helping him (Jedi Knight) out and making this possible.

Now we will have to wait and see that how this story progresses further.

Abeloth made very bad decisions.

Originally posted by Arhael
Wrong and biased. Intelligence always matters more, than anything.
Luke is an exception to this rule. Being a Luke fanboy, you fail to realize this.

Originally posted by Arhael
Seriously? You really trying to compare Force portrayed by different sources? I am sorry but that's silly. Animation of Sidious' lightning in TFU, also, didn't have 12 bolts, does it mean his lightning was weaker then? Not at all.
More bolts; harder to counter.

Originally posted by Arhael
You did not clarify that he can defeat them too and simultaneously.
Marek alone has all the chances to defeat Vitiate as he defeated even Sidious. Satele Shan as Revan's descendant is at least on level with JK, she has a chance to accomplish the same feat as him.
Correction: Marek did not defeated Sidious.

Also, Vitiate can/will crush the wills of both simultaneously. Simple.

Originally posted by Arhael
I am in position because some "players" claims mean nothing, it is not canon and not evidenced anywhere. I never jump to quick conclusions.
You jump to conclusions without doing your homework.

Originally posted by Arhael
The thing is that you don't know. You assume and believe that there was some ritual but you don't know, if it is true and no one can prove that. And I am sure that you are misinformed because such important information would certainly be mentioned at least somewhere, most likely in wookieepedia. And, while you try to show how unbiased you are, trying to give excuses like he used Force lightning instead of Force Storm and relying on most certainly false information to prove that he was much weaker to discard his legitimate loss is VERY biased.
Ones again I point out at stupidity of counting amount of bolts. Because that would mean that Sidious' lightning is much weaker, than Vitiate's, which is ridiculous assumption.
Covered already.

--------------

Now! Embrace the dark side by joining me.

Arhael

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate's mental powers will surprise him and overcome him.
Or just make him enraged and unleash a Force blast. You know it now becomes assumption vs assumption. But I don't see how it will surprise him as Palpatine is adept at mental powers as well.

Does it make her defenseless against mind domination? Luke admits many times that he can die in next confrontation. Does it prove he will die?

Which he successively absorbed like Yoda.

No it's not. I see your points and respect that. But don't give me sh*t like this. People don't have realizations out of nothing.

Don't you need to establish it, if your opinion is that he mind dominated them during combat? Force lightning takes a lot of concentration leaving no space for mind domination, especially, when it is used in wide range, this is my establishment.

Extremely illogical perception of my statement. What I meant by that is that it is not just newby brush with darkside. He trained from childhood to utilize it and to master it as his prime weapon. In no way it is his weakness, which would make him easier to mind dominate. Marek studying darkside all his life and utilizing it to full extend is not the same as Revan tainted by darkside but still struggling to remain Jedi.

laughing

Flawed? You better stop saying nonsense like that. Vitiate was stupid to toy with his victim and put him in vulnerable position as result. End of story.

Power alone was never enough for him to get away. Intelligence and wise decisions are always important.

You need to realize that, when Sidious is in old body, there is no difference. Well, in game Vitiate uses illusions, perhaps this is the only difference.

It is not Generalization

No more baseless, than you blaming authors and saying that Luke gets away with power alone and that my point is baseless.

Fighting much more powerful opponent on his own field in the middle of darkside nexus without help of three masters like last time hardly qualifies as his own terms. His terms would be fighting inside a Jedi academy.

Luke is not exception to this rule. Being a Luke hater, you fail to realize this. By the way, topic is not about Luke and I am not fun of Satele Shan and actually don't like Marek.

Implying that Sidious' lightning was much weaker because in movie it was portrayed only with three bolts is laughable.

He did. Look at cutscene 5.40-6:00:
mVUzzKtwxeY

Fixed.

Nephthys revealed that on lightside Jedi Knight wastes time to save his girlfriend giving Vitiate time to regain his powers (if he was truly weaken at all). So my conclusions are still relevant. wink

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Or just make him enraged and unleash a Force blast. You know it now becomes assumption vs assumption.
My assumption has canonical relevance. Yours does not. Vitiate has demonstrated the capability to crush the will of any individual he had wanted to. This works in his favor and it is safe to side with him.

Originally posted by Arhael
But I don't see how it will surprise him as Palpatine is adept at mental powers as well.
When did Sidious attempted to crush the will of Marek?

Originally posted by Arhael
Does it make her defenseless against mind domination? Luke admits many times that he can die in next confrontation. Does it prove he will die?
Yes, she will be defenseless (she herself acknowledged this). Watch the video below.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which he successively absorbed like Yoda.
Here are the details:

Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.

The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

Marek could not escape from this attack.

Originally posted by Arhael
No it's not. I see your points and respect that. But don't give me sh*t like this. People don't have realizations out of nothing.
I repeat: Your realization is baseless. The sooner you understand this, the better.

Originally posted by Arhael
Don't you need to establish it, if your opinion is that he mind dominated them during combat? Force lightning takes a lot of concentration leaving no space for mind domination, especially, when it is used in wide range, this is my establishment.
Vitiate have demonstrated the capability to crush the will of his adversaries without even attacking them. Your opinion does not matters.

Originally posted by Arhael
Extremely illogical perception of my statement. What I meant by that is that it is not just newby brush with darkside. He trained from childhood to utilize it and to master it as his prime weapon. In no way it is his weakness, which would make him easier to mind dominate. Marek studying darkside all his life and utilizing it to full extend is not the same as Revan tainted by darkside but still struggling to remain Jedi.
1. Even if Marek had firm control over his emotions, he is still vulnerable in this fight. The case of Satele helps my argument.

2. But Revan was not easy to break even during this struggling phase. Only a master of mind domination succeeded in breaking him.

Originally posted by Arhael
laughing

Nothing to laugh here.

Originally posted by Arhael
Flawed? You better stop saying nonsense like that. Vitiate was stupid to toy with his victim and put him in vulnerable position as result. End of story.
Your point would have been valid if Vitiate would have seen Meetra approaching him and still decided to toy with Revan. Since this was not the case, your assumption is null and void.

Originally posted by Arhael
Power alone was never enough for him to get away. Intelligence and wise decisions are always important.
Intelligence would have been important if he was facing a more powerful adversary. Most of the time, he was the strongest in his fights. Once again, your assumption is null and void.

Originally posted by Arhael
You need to realize that, when Sidious is in old body, there is no difference. Well, in game Vitiate uses illusions, perhaps this is the only difference.
Original body is original body. Their is no better substitute for it.

Originally posted by Arhael
It is not Generalization
It is.

Originally posted by Arhael
No more baseless, than you blaming authors and saying that Luke gets away with power alone and that my point is baseless.
My point is valid. Why would one need great intelligence to beat a weaker foe?

Originally posted by Arhael
Fighting much more powerful opponent on his own field in the middle of darkside nexus without help of three masters like last time hardly qualifies as his own terms. His terms would be fighting inside a Jedi academy.
Once again! Available evidence points to the weakened state of the Vitiate during this confrontation. Scourge gave all the intel to the Jedi Knight to make this confrontation possible under favorable circumstances. The Jedi Knight did fight Vitiate on his own terms in the second encounter.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke is not exception to this rule. Being a Luke hater, you fail to realize this. By the way, topic is not about Luke and I am not fun of Satele Shan and actually don't like Marek.
My point regarding Luke is valid. Can you highlight any PLAN that Luke would make to defeat his opponent before combat?

And I am not a hater of Luke. It is just that I feel that his story should end now. He is arguably the most powerful Jedi in the whole mythos. With this kind of status, the authors can hardly make his struggles interesting or convincing.

Originally posted by Arhael
Implying that Sidious' lightning was much weaker because in movie it was portrayed only with three bolts is laughable.
This is not my point. Greater span of Lightning requires much more effort to contain. I can prove my point with canonical evidence.

Originally posted by Arhael
He did. Look at cutscene 5.40-6:00:
mVUzzKtwxeY
Use the novel.

Originally posted by Arhael
Fixed.
If this makes you happy.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nephthys revealed that on lightside Jedi Knight wastes time to save his girlfriend giving Vitiate time to regain his powers (if he was truly weaken at all). So my conclusions are still relevant. wink

No.

Saving a friend makes no difference. Vitiate remains in weakened state, which is a plot device.

Here is all the evidence you need:

MuyAfEgYAMo

This video is based on Lightside path.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

No.

Saving a friend makes no difference. Vitiate remains in weakened state, which is a plot device.

Here is all the evidence you need:

MuyAfEgYAMo

This video is based on Lightside path.

Clearly you missed the part at 16.20, and I quote:

Scourge: 'You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength. We are fortunate to be alive.'

Battlemaster

Astute point..

Arhael

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My assumption has canonical relevance. Yours does not. Vitiate has demonstrated the capability to crush the will of any individual he had wanted to. This works in his favor and it is safe to side with him.Mine does not? He didn't mind dominate strike team in combat. He didn't mind dominate JK in combat. he didn't mind dominate Revan in combat. That's canon, another matter is that you discard it.

You need to establish this as mind domination is not visible in visuals. big grin

She is concerned that she can fall under his influence. There is clear possibility of that and that is why she is reluctant. But you can't use it as guaranteed evidence that she will be defenseless.

Enlighten me as I didn't read the novel. Giving quote out of context is not helpful. So, if Marek did not overpower Palpatine, how did he end up laying on the floor?

"Overcoming the pain just enough to absorb and gather the energy, Galen advanced on Palpatine as the two remained locked in the chain of lightning. At the same time, he noticed that a squadron of stormtroopers had entered the chamber, with Darth Vader limping behind them, in pursuit of the fleeing Rebel leaders. With no other option left, Galen grabbed the Emperor's shoulders and redirected the lightning into the Dark Lord, causing Sidious to share in the agonizing pain of his own power. Driven by concern for his friends, Galen embraced the Force completely and released all of the pent up energy, resulting in a massive shock wave that killed the stormtroopers and destroyed much of the dome." - this comes from wookieepedia and it seems to be based on book.

I repeat: Stop giving me this bullshit. The sooner you understand this, the better.

He did as well as inability to crush will of selected characters.
Scourge: "I will flay as to the temple but you mast face him alone. No one else can resist his direct influence". You say he was weakened, that doesn't seems to be the case as everyone else was reluctant to face him.

There is no case with Satele, she never fought Vitiate. And it is not about control over emotions. Idea of enraged Marek getting mind dominated is silly. Even, if he is vulnerable, his Force blasts would make Vitiate forget about mind domination, even before he tried.

You point about Abeloth would have been valid, had she known about Luke's ability to call on love for his Son, Mara and entire Order to mitigate her powers. Since this was not the case, your assumption is null and void.

Jorus C'baot, Palpatine, Lord Nyax, Unu'Thul, Jacen, Lord Talon (After bathing in Pool of Knowledge), Abeloth. Luke was Jedi but darkside gives greater power. Moreover, there is a lot of cases, when he is not in his strongest form (potential).
How about disfavoring circumstances? Lomi Plo was invisible to him, she was Force draining him and his lightsaber, she even froze him in one place at one point.
How about Force exhausted Luke together with Ben handling 15 Sith? From this lone example I could point dozens of intelligent decisions but it is too long.
I suggest you stop clinging to this idea of Luke not needing intelligence.

It isn't. smile

There is very long time between interrupting ritual and fight with Vitiate. How long it takes to regain power? Also, there is canonical evidence that smaller Force reserves don't make user less powerful. If you try to pull this "weakened state" thing for Vitiate, then I pull it for Marek as well. He was weakened in fight with Vader before facing Palpatine and still managed to overpower Palpatine with TK. Should we assume that, if not Vader, Palpatine wouldn't have chance at all as Marek wouldn't be weakened?

You point is invalid and stupid. Become Palpatine's apprentice to learn about him and defeat from within. Get read of his doubts to defeat Lomi Plo. Fake death and attack Jacen from behind, as the result Jacen was crippled right from the start of the fight. Ally with Sith to defeat Abeloth. Put blood trail on Vestara to track her. Learn mnemotherapy to reap Callista out of Abeloth. Hide in the Force and give surprise attack to 4 last Sith (there was total of 15). Kill two of them instantly and fight with last two: Vestara and her master. (Remember he is Force exhausted at that point. ) Learn during fight that they utilize Force as third hand to use Parang. Outwit them by turning away from light, so his visor does not get darkened and kill the master, while her visor is darkened. There are countless examples of his intelligence, I can go on and on. On the other hand, when did Vitiate make any plan to defeat someone in combat? He is the exact case, where intelligence during combat is not important. He just stays in one place and pawns.

Prove that Vitiate's dozen Forks are more powerful, than Sidious' three then thumb up

Zampan�

no limits fallacy

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Clearly you missed the part at 16.20, and I quote:

Scourge: 'You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength. We are fortunate to be alive.'
A sign of his misjudgement? Because we do not see any difference in the fight?

Originally posted by Arhael
Mine does not? He didn't mind dominate strike team in combat.
This is an assumption.

Originally posted by Arhael
He didn't mind dominate JK in combat.
But he has mind dominated JK once (in the first encounter). Element of surprise worked, correct?

Originally posted by Arhael
he didn't mind dominate Revan in combat. That's canon, another matter is that you discard it.
He has mind dominated Revan once (in the first encounter). Element of surprise worked, correct?

Originally posted by Arhael
You need to establish this as mind domination is not visible in visuals. big grin

No need to. The only thing we know is that Vitiate broke those Jedi - physically and mentally.

Originally posted by Arhael
She is concerned that she can fall under his influence. There is clear possibility of that and that is why she is reluctant. But you can't use it as guaranteed evidence that she will be defenseless.
I give priority to her concern.

You are not willing to concede due to your personal bias.

Originally posted by Arhael
Enlighten me as I didn't read the novel. Giving quote out of context is not helpful. So, if Marek did not overpower Palpatine, how did he end up laying on the floor?

"Overcoming the pain just enough to absorb and gather the energy, Galen advanced on Palpatine as the two remained locked in the chain of lightning. At the same time, he noticed that a squadron of stormtroopers had entered the chamber, with Darth Vader limping behind them, in pursuit of the fleeing Rebel leaders. With no other option left, Galen grabbed the Emperor's shoulders and redirected the lightning into the Dark Lord, causing Sidious to share in the agonizing pain of his own power. Driven by concern for his friends, Galen embraced the Force completely and released all of the pent up energy, resulting in a massive shock wave that killed the stormtroopers and destroyed much of the dome." - this comes from wookieepedia and it seems to be based on book.
Genius, I have the novel and know all of this.

Focus on how you present your arguments. You made it sound like as if it was easy for Marek to handle Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
I repeat: Stop giving me this bullshit. The sooner you understand this, the better.
Emotions running high here. Clearly, you have shut your brain.

Originally posted by Arhael
He did as well as inability to crush will of selected characters.
Scourge: "I will flay as to the temple but you mast face him alone. No one else can resist his direct influence". You say he was weakened, that doesn't seems to be the case as everyone else was reluctant to face him.
Both Tol Braga and Satele confirmed that the Emperor was in weakened condition. This does not changes the fact that the Emperor was still a very dangerous foe to contend with.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is no case with Satele, she never fought Vitiate. And it is not about control over emotions. Idea of enraged Marek getting mind dominated is silly. Even, if he is vulnerable, his Force blasts would make Vitiate forget about mind domination, even before he tried.
So 'being enraged' is a form of defence against mental powers? Do you realize that how silly this sounds?

How would Marek even know what is awaiting him when he decides to confront Vitiate? Even if we assume that Satele tells him to keep his guard up - this does not discounts the possibility of him getting mind dominated. Because even Satele was not sure about her chances against Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
You point about Abeloth would have been valid, had she known about Luke's ability to call on love for his Son, Mara and entire Order to mitigate her powers. Since this was not the case, your assumption is null and void.
Apples and Oranges. Nice try.

Originally posted by Arhael
Jorus C'baot, Palpatine, Lord Nyax, Unu'Thul, Jacen, Lord Talon (After bathing in Pool of Knowledge), Abeloth. Luke was Jedi but darkside gives greater power. Moreover, there is a lot of cases, when he is not in his strongest form (potential).
So with exception of Abeloth, all of these were stronger then Luke?

Originally posted by Arhael
How about disfavoring circumstances? Lomi Plo was invisible to him, she was Force draining him and his lightsaber, she even froze him in one place at one point.
But Luke survived because of his greater strength, correct?

Originally posted by Arhael
How about Force exhausted Luke together with Ben handling 15 Sith? From this lone example I could point dozens of intelligent decisions but it is too long.
It shows that how poor those Sith were in combat.

Originally posted by Arhael
I suggest you stop clinging to this idea of Luke not needing intelligence.
But he does not. Their is seldom a plan in his fights. He just endures anything thrown at him and puts down his opponents.

Originally posted by Arhael
It isn't. smile

Think again.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is very long time between interrupting ritual and fight with Vitiate. How long it takes to regain power? Also, there is canonical evidence that smaller Force reserves don't make user less powerful. If you try to pull this "weakened state" thing for Vitiate, then I pull it for Marek as well. He was weakened in fight with Vader before facing Palpatine and still managed to overpower Palpatine with TK. Should we assume that, if not Vader, Palpatine wouldn't have chance at all as Marek wouldn't be weakened?
Vitiate was engaged in a exhausting Galaxy-level ritual. This is the difference. It was far bigger and complex objective.

Originally posted by Arhael
You point is invalid and stupid. Become Palpatine's apprentice to learn about him and defeat from within.
Palpatine was stronger so some planning was required to deal with him. But Luke's plan wasn't a good done. He went against the teachings of Master Yoda and succumbed to the dark side in the process. His sister saved him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Get read of his doubts to defeat Lomi Plo.
He overcame his emotional limitations. Nothing to do with intelligence/planning.

Originally posted by Arhael
Fake death and attack Jacen from behind, as the result Jacen was crippled right from the start of the fight.
Jacen had captured Ben. Luke did not wanted to take chances by letting Jacen know that he was coming. Yes, this is a plan but it was due to Ben.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ally with Sith to defeat Abeloth.
Planning was necessary to deal with Abeloth because of her greater power.

Originally posted by Arhael
Put blood trail on Vestara to track her. Learn mnemotherapy to reap Callista out of Abeloth.
This is irrelevant. No fighting involved.

Originally posted by Arhael
Hide in the Force and give surprise attack to 4 last Sith (there was total of 15). Kill two of them instantly and fight with last two: Vestara and her master. (Remember he is Force exhausted at that point. )
This is connected with Abeloth. Luke had to take no chances.

Also, I can give examples of even no-name Jedi using Force Masking techniques during combat situations.

Originally posted by Arhael
Learn during fight that they utilize Force as third hand to use Parang. Outwit them by turning away from light, so his visor does not get darkened and kill the master, while her visor is darkened. There are countless examples of his intelligence, I can go on and on.
I never stated that Luke was dumb or never planned. He was getting better at doing his homework with passage of time due to his experience and exposure to various plots and schemes against him. However, Luke is not among the most intelligent combatants in history. His power alone gives him massive advantage in his fights and he does not have to significantly rely on his intelligence.

Originally posted by Arhael
On the other hand, when did Vitiate make any plan to defeat someone in combat? He is the exact case, where intelligence during combat is not important. He just stays in one place and pawns.
1. Didn't Vitiate planned his rise to power in Nathema?

2. Didn't Vitiate planned to trap the Sith Lords he invited to Nathema to use them for his agencda? This feat alone is one of the greatest examples of intelligence in the works.

3. Didn't Vitiate planned to deal with the Jedi? Didn't he planned on how to deal with Revan and Malak?

4. Didn't he planned on how to deal with the rebellious Dark Council during the time of Revan after learning about its plot against him?

Anything else?

Originally posted by Arhael
Prove that Vitiate's dozen Forks are more powerful, than Sidious' three then thumb up

.
They were lethal enough to overcome the defences of Revan and kill him within seconds. And Revan was extremely proficient in Tutaminis.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A sign of his misjudgement? Because we do not see any difference in the fight?

We don't see the fight. It happens during gameplay. Scourge's statement stands.

Arhael

This is an assumption.
Against your far more unlikely assumption. In fight with Revan first he used domination separately. Then lightning separately. Then Force storm. At no point he used both domination and lightning simultaneously. Also, there is no single example of someone using mind domination and lightning simultaneously.
On the video Emperor at most uses Dun Moch. That we can agree on.
Also, people don't fall unconscious from mind domination.

There was no element of surprise. They were unable to defend against Force Storm. And JK was still learning, no experience and not full potential yet.

Indeed. They didn't have a clue about him. As opposed to Jedi strike team that heard all the hype about Emperor and were prepared to fight him.

You are, yet, to prove that he dominated them during combat, not after he rendered them unconscious.

Saying that "Yes, she is defenseless" is bias. Reluctance doesn't prove anything. Luke was afraid to fight Jacen due to fear to fall to darkside. Does it prove that he would fall to darkside, if he killed Jacen?

No, I didn't. You stated that he had no chance to defeat Vitiate alone. And keep trying to discard the fact that he overpowered Palpatine, and even when got electrocuted, was resisting it, managed to think about what is going on around and willingly sacrificed himself to save others.
Saying that character that matched the most powerful Sith of all time has no chance to defeat Vitiate is as bias as it could be.

No emotions. Only giving back exactly what is coming at me.

Being enraged boosts power to a lot, more power = more strength to resist. And enraged person is uncontrollable and refuses to follow any commands.

The matter is not even about the possibility to get mind dominated. You said that he has no chance against against Vitiate alone, when his demonstration against Vader and Palpatine shows otherwise. Also, only much less powerful users can be mind dominated. In case with Marek there won't be significant power difference.

In terms of power, yes.

Nope. Intelligence

No. It shows Luke's intelligence. Luke and Ben kept retreating, using positional advantage and outwitting them. They didn't allow all Sith attack at ones. Also, Vestara's master was no poor combatant, Luke couldn't simply overpower or overwhelm her, he outwitted her. And again, Luke was Force exhausted, he couldn't rely on his strength alone.

Nope. See above (c).

thumb up

Combat with lots of Force use can exhaust as much as any ritual. In any case how long it takes to replenish powers? Revitalizing trance wasn't known to Vitiate? And Nephthys proved he gathered his strength anyway.

Not good plan? Was there any better plan of how to destroy world devastators? I see you give "but" or "irrelevant" to every single example. But it doesn't matter as I proved you wrong anyway.

Abeloth was unknown at the time, Luke was Force exhausted. Also, isn't it part of intelligence to find the right solution of how to handle someone, when odds are heavily against you?

So now you amend yourself. Luke always relied on his intelligence. He never relied on his power alone and tried to use least Force possible. Also, ability to outwit someone in combat is part of intelligence. I recall first LotF fight with Lumya. She gave him fatal wound. He still managed to fight and outwit her. And he won not because of greater strength but because he shot her down with blaster. Also, a lot of Luke's achievements come, when he was still learning and nowhere near his full potential, so you can't say he wasn't among most intelligent. He constructed shoto to defeat Lumya first time - that is a lot of intelligence and creativity.
He nearly died from Force blast of much more powerful Datomiri witch. He used Millennium Falcon (controlling it with Force better, than entire crew could) to kill her. - again intelligence and creativity to kill more powerful foe.

I mirror it with Luke's examples anyway.
1. Didn't he plan to rise new Jedi Order?

2. 2. Didn't Luke plan to find Zonama Sekot to use it to end Yuuzhan Vong war without utter race annihilation? This feat alone is one of the greatest examples of intelligence in the works.

3. Didn't Luke planned to deal with the Lost Tribe of the Sith? Didn't he plan on how to deal with Abeloth?

4. Didn't he plan on how to deal with the rebellious Jacen after learning about his atrocities?

Is it prove that his lightning was more lethal than Palpatine's? Is it prove that Revan was better at it, than Yoda and Marek? Also, I am, yet, to hear anything intelligent in Vititate's combat.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Against your far more unlikely assumption. In fight with Revan first he used domination separately. Then lightning separately. Then Force storm. At no point he used both domination and lightning simultaneously. Also, there is no single example of someone using mind domination and lightning simultaneously.
On the video Emperor at most uses Dun Moch. That we can agree on.
Also, people don't fall unconscious from mind domination.
Since this fight is not documented, it would be better if you consult Mr. Drew in this regard (you can email him and wait for his response). Until then, you and I can only speculate.

Originally posted by Arhael
There was no element of surprise. They were unable to defend against Force Storm. And JK was still learning, no experience and not full potential yet.
Vitiate's powers surprised the Jedi.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed. They didn't have a clue about him. As opposed to Jedi strike team that heard all the hype about Emperor and were prepared to fight him.
Malak and Revan also did some homework on Vitiate before they planned to attack him. You think they were idiots?

But Vitiate's powers surprised them too.

Originally posted by Arhael
You are, yet, to prove that he dominated them during combat, not after he rendered them unconscious.
See above.

Originally posted by Arhael
Saying that "Yes, she is defenseless" is bias. Reluctance doesn't prove anything. Luke was afraid to fight Jacen due to fear to fall to darkside. Does it prove that he would fall to darkside, if he killed Jacen?
Luke's analogy is useless in this context.

It has been established in SWTOR that no other individual could face the Emperor directly and not succumb to his influence besides JK. Satele's refusal to accompany JK in this fight affirms my point.

Originally posted by Arhael
No, I didn't. You stated that he had no chance to defeat Vitiate alone. And keep trying to discard the fact that he overpowered Palpatine, and even when got electrocuted, was resisting it, managed to think about what is going on around and willingly sacrificed himself to save others.
Saying that character that matched the most powerful Sith of all time has no chance to defeat Vitiate is as bias as it could be.
Marek's fight with Sidious leaves more questions then answers.

Originally posted by Arhael
No emotions. Only giving back exactly what is coming at me.
You refuse to acknowledge any faults in your points. This is the issue.

Originally posted by Arhael
Being enraged boosts power to a lot, more power = more strength to resist. And enraged person is uncontrollable and refuses to follow any commands.
It does not guarantee's protection against Vitiate's telepathic powers. In addition, Marek will be unlikely to get enraged early on unless he realizes that his efforts are not working. He may not even get the chance.

Originally posted by Arhael
The matter is not even about the possibility to get mind dominated. You said that he has no chance against against Vitiate alone, when his demonstration against Vader and Palpatine shows otherwise. Also, only much less powerful users can be mind dominated. In case with Marek there won't be significant power difference.
You assumption is faulty. Neither Vader and nor Sidious have demonstrated the capability to dominate the minds of powerful individuals in the same manner as Vitiate has done. This is his speciality. Any attempt to put another Sith on par with Vitiate in this aspect is futile exercise. Sidious as of DE came close but this is it.

The original assumption that mind domination works only on the weak minds is null and void with introduction of Vitiate.

To fairly judge Vitiate's capabilities, it is important to realize his talents.

Originally posted by Arhael
In terms of power, yes.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

And then you expect to be taken seriously...

Originally posted by Arhael
Nope. Intelligence
He endured the assaults with his intelligence? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Arhael
No. It shows Luke's intelligence. Luke and Ben kept retreating, using positional advantage and outwitting them. They didn't allow all Sith attack at ones. Also, Vestara's master was no poor combatant, Luke couldn't simply overpower or overwhelm her, he outwitted her. And again, Luke was Force exhausted, he couldn't rely on his strength alone.
This places him on par with Obi-Wan at best.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nope. See above (c).
That is just one fight. My point is in the context of WHOLE.

Originally posted by Arhael
thumb up

Brain fart?

Originally posted by Arhael
Combat with lots of Force use can exhaust as much as any ritual.
Again and again, I have to remind you that you need to support your assumptions with evidence if you plan to convince me.

Originally posted by Arhael
In any case how long it takes to replenish powers?
Depends upon how much exhausted one is.

Originally posted by Arhael
Revitalizing trance wasn't known to Vitiate?
It was. Did he ever get weakened after a duel? No

Did a mega-ritual weakened him temporarily? Yes

Originally posted by Arhael
And Nephthys proved he gathered his strength anyway.
Nephthys highlighted Scourge's opinion. Was the fight harder with Lightside choices?

Originally posted by Arhael
Not good plan? Was there any better plan of how to destroy world devastators? I see you give "but" or "irrelevant" to every single example. But it doesn't matter as I proved you wrong anyway.
This plan had its benefits and flaws. It was not a perfect one.

Originally posted by Arhael
Abeloth was unknown at the time, Luke was Force exhausted. Also, isn't it part of intelligence to find the right solution of how to handle someone, when odds are heavily against you?
Abeloth was reckless and not very smart. Luke was a wise and highly experienced Jedi Master by this time. Can you notice the difference?

It seems as if you are weak at understanding the plots.

Originally posted by Arhael
So now you amend yourself.
No. It is my position from the beginning.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke always relied on his intelligence. He never relied on his power alone and tried to use least Force possible.
Tall claim.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, ability to outwit someone in combat is part of intelligence.
It depends upon how this outwit part is accomplished.

Originally posted by Arhael
I recall first LotF fight with Lumya. She gave him fatal wound. He still managed to fight and outwit her. And he won not because of greater strength but because he shot her down with blaster.
This is a impressive feat of intelligence? Getting fatally wounded is not an example of intelligence. And Luke endured the wounds because of his power. A weak individual would have died in his place.

You talk about intelligence? See no further then epic duel between Mara and Caedus.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, a lot of Luke's achievements come, when he was still learning and nowhere near his full potential, so you can't say he wasn't among most intelligent. He constructed shoto to defeat Lumya first time - that is a lot of intelligence and creativity.
Yes. This is valid argument. Characters grow and change with passage of time. Luke have improved since NJO.

Originally posted by Arhael
He nearly died from Force blast of much more powerful Datomiri witch. He used Millennium Falcon (controlling it with Force better, than entire crew could) to kill her. - again intelligence and creativity to kill more powerful foe.
This is first good example from you. Yes, Luke is not dumb and learned from his experiences.

Originally posted by Arhael
I mirror it with Luke's examples anyway.
1. Didn't he plan to rise new Jedi Order?
Bastilla Shan did the same. And yet she isn't among the most intelligent combatants.

-> Taking Malak head-on when was DLOTS;

-> Taking Revan head-on Star Forge;

Building the Jedi Order is very different from rising to power through combat and violence.

Originally posted by Arhael
2. Didn't Luke plan to find Zonama Sekot to use it to end Yuuzhan Vong war without utter race annihilation? This feat alone is one of the greatest examples of intelligence in the works.
How does this example establishes him as a very intelligent combatant?

Originally posted by Arhael
3. Didn't Luke planned to deal with the Lost Tribe of the Sith? Didn't he plan on how to deal with Abeloth?
I have acknowledged this. Abeloth was a big threat and some planning was needed to tackle her.

Originally posted by Arhael
4. Didn't he plan on how to deal with the rebellious Jacen after learning about his atrocities?
Yes. But during the fight? Where was his intelligence then?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Is it prove that his lightning was more lethal than Palpatine's? Is it prove that Revan was better at it, than Yoda and Marek? Also, I am, yet, to hear anything intelligent in Vititate's combat.
Hint: Focus on how Revan handled Nyriss. Everything else will fit the bill.

Arhael

Since this fight is not documented, it would be better if you consult Mr. Drew in this regard (you can email him and wait for his response). Until then, you and I can only speculate.Seriously? You do that, if you want. My assumptions are based on canonical evidence, while there is not a single evidence supporting your one. In novels and other materials no one ever demonstrated ability to utilize mind domination and Force lightning simultaneously and that includes Vitiate himself, in book he used these abilities separately.

Same stands for Marek, his powers will surprise Vitiate. wink

It has been established that JK is the only known Jedi to resist mind domination. But it proves nothing in terms of Satele, since she never faced him. Luke's analogy is perfect example.

It gives the most important answer that Marek was capable to defeat the most powerful Sith of all time.

They are faults only from your perception. I suggest you do a bit of self-analysis instead.

I am not trying to prove that Marek is immune to domination (Although, I am sure of that). I am trying to prove that there is no guaranty that Vitiate will be able to mind dominate Marek. He might not even get a chance. I will concede, if you agree that odds of Vitiate vs Marek are 50/50.

Palpatine mind dominated all mighty Luke, that feat alone is priceless.

You sure? Was there any character at least remotely as powerful as Vitiate. All his opponents were much less powerful. Can same be said about Marek? Not at all.

Jorus C'baot - Luke wasn't in his prime and couldn't defeat him alone.
Palpatine - no explanation needed.
Lord Nyax - Luke wasn't in his prime. Nyax was so powerful that nearly mind dominated Luke, Mara and Tahiri simultaneously. Then he tapped into Force nexus and became unstoppable. Tahiri managed to kill him with bag-bullets because he couldn't feel them in the Force.

Unu'Thul - draining power from entire Killik colony. Luke had to expose their common past. And at no point he overpowered him.
Jacen - this is the only arguable example. Luke disabled him with Force by catching off guard. However, when they fought, Luke did not demonstrate any Force overpowering and got Force pushed himself. Jacen definitely had less potential but extra source acquired from using anger and pain gave him much more power, so as the result he was superior to his sister and a match for Luke.
Lord Talon - Pool of Knowledge gives roughly half power of Abeloth.

Don't remember Force exhausted Obi-Wan handling anyone. And I am amazed at your intelligence comparison skills.

Ass thought?

Yoda at the end of the fight with Palpatine got Force exhausted. Luke by the time last Slayer was alive got exhausted. Koro Zill lost fight to Luke because got Force exhausted. Also, Vitiate was "weakened", not completely exhausted, which is not as bad and long to revitalize.

He responded to that as well. wink

How long did it take her to become Head of State and Sith Grand Master? She lost because of crazy idea to make Son and Daughter out of Ben and Vestara. Same for Vitiate, he lost because of crazy idea to consume galaxy.

Getting wounded is example of circumstances. You are focusing on wrong thing. Towards the end of the fight he had no power reserves left, mortally wounded and was laying on the floor, while she was standing, armed and intact, also, she was very intelligent combatant. But what happened next? She died (Almost).

Also, you missed one of my points, probably due to syntax error.
You said:
Yet, all 4 points about Vitiate you provided are irrelevant to combat. Ones again, maybe you give me any evidence of Vitiate intelligence in actual combat, since you discard Luke's intelligence outside combat as irrelevant?

What?Jedi Order was risen through violence and combat. And don't try to argue it. There are countless examples, when someone was trying to destroy Order.

How any of your examples establish Vitiate as intelligent combatant?

You forgot about Jaina vs Jacen. wink

Hint: Focus on how Revan's feats pale in comparison to Marek. Everything else will fit the bill.

Also, Yoda did similar feat with Dooku. So what?

Nephthys

Question: Is there ever an explation for why the Hero of Tython can resist Vitiates mindcontrol or is it simply from being so powerful?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Question: Is there ever an explation for why the Hero of Tython can resist Vitiates mindcontrol or is it simply from being so powerful?
No explanation yet. Maybe in the future.

Power does not seems to be the only criteria because JK was already very powerful at the end of Jedi Knight Act 2.

It is possible that;

1. JK may have come up with some kind of solution like Revan.

2. Vitiate did not attempted to crush the will of JK again.

Nephthys

Indeed, Wookiepedia says that you are released from his control with the help of the Force Ghost of your master, but it doesn't explain how you can resist him in the future. It's possible that being affected by it allowed te Jedi to figure out how to resist it, or that the Jedi simply grew too powerful to control. Afterall we know he grew in power simply because the Emperor kicks his ass the first time they fought yet the Knight was capable of defeating him the second. Vitiate may be beastly with telepathy, but logically someone just as powerful as himself like the Hero of Tython should be able to resist him.

Either way, Revan shows that the Emperor can be interrupted while he's trying to dominate someones mind. Personally I say that Marek can do this.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Indeed, Wookiepedia says that you are released from his control with the help of the Force Ghost of your master, but it doesn't explain how you can resist him in the future.
This is true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's possible that being affected by it allowed te Jedi to figure out how to resist it, or that the Jedi simply grew too powerful to control.
Maybe. But then we have example of Satele Shan as well, who regardless of being very powerful, was still reluctant to confront Vitiate.

Therefore, I wouldn't put too much faith on power factor alone.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Afterall we know he grew in power simply because the Emperor kicks his ass the first time they fought yet the Knight was capable of defeating him the second.
He wouldn't have grown much in power during the events of Jedi Knight Act 3 because these events did not happened many years later. However, the events of Jedi Knight Act 3 (temporarily) weakened Vitiate or put him in vulnerable position. JK took advantage.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate may be beastly with telepathy, but logically someone just as powerful as himself like the Hero of Tython should be able to resist him.
Not sure about this. Specially, if the the opponent does not knows Vitiate well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Either way, Revan shows that the Emperor can be interrupted while he's trying to dominate someones mind.
This is true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally I say that Marek can do this.
Not as easy as it sounds. Psychological factors should also be taken in to consideration. Marek does not knows Vitiate well or understand his powers properly.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is true.

Of course.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Maybe. But then we have example of Satele Shan as well, who regardless of being very powerful, was still reluctant to confront Vitiate.

Therefore, I wouldn't put too much faith on power factor alone.

Nothing suggests that Satale is close enough to the Hero of Tython or Vitiates powerlevels for her to be able to resist him. Besides which, we don't know if she couldn't resist him , only that she believes that she wouldn't be able. She could be wrong.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He wouldn't have grown much in power during the events of Jedi Knight Act 3 because these events did not happened many years later. However, the events of Jedi Knight Act 3 (temporarily) weakened Vitiate or put him in vulnerable position. JK took advantage.

Its unknown how long the period time is that the game spans, but we've seen that its possible for jedi to grow in power exceedingly quickly, such as in the case of Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr. This goes double if the Hero of Tython uses the darkside, which is known to allow to grant power extremely swifly.

They were also inside a powerful darkside nexus though. Was Vitiate weakened more than he was boosted by that?

However there is another possibility. Its possible that the being who faced the Hero of Tython at the end of the JK Act 2 quest was the Emperors True Body, while the one he faced at the end of the game was merely the Emperors Voice. Its possible that the Voice cannot use his telepathic powers, either at all or not to their full extent.

Thats just a possibility though.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not sure about this. Specially, if the the opponent does not knows Vitiate well.

Theres nothing indicating that the Emperor's mind-controlling powers are unblockable.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is true.

Not as easy as it sounds. Psychological factors should also be taken in to consideration. Marek does not knows Vitiate well or understand his powers properly.

Revan was able to sense Vitiate preparing to attack, so will Marek. Furthermore, Vitiate is one of the most influential figures in Galactic History, and at the time of TOR the council knew about his abilities, including his telepathic ones. Vader and Starkiller had access to that knowledge, so its very probable that Marek knows about his abilities, and he certainly knows who he is.

Arhael

No, he didn't. Because I have yet to ask him. Come back to your senses.
You didn't notice this:

Irrelevant

Luke got distracted by Alima's hatred projection. Lumya used that exact moment to strike him. Yes, it shows her intelligence. At the end Luke put three blaster bolts into her chest. She was thought dead for a while. He was disarmed, Force exhausted, fatally wounded and on his ass at that point and still won.

So you are calling 6+ child intelligent and skilled combatant? rolling on floor laughing

He was mind dominating whoever was nearby to him. Sith came and same fate awaited him. Indeed he was wunderkind. big grin

He didn't need intelligence, his power alone ensured his dominance. He didn't learn any skills, he simply toyed with enormous power he possessed.

This is intelligence in convincing and mind influencing, it is irrelevant to combat. He didn't need intelligence in combat. He simply mind controlled them and they were unable to resist. Simple example of his superior power. What combat skills you talk about I have no clue, when they simply couldn't resist his mind domination. Blatant overpowering, a human stomping a cockroach.

Ones again how is it relevant to combat and what is intelligent about it? He simply allowed them to come in, which doesn't strike as very intelligent thing. They came and bowed down to him without any fight. Another example of his superior power that he doesn't need to come up with anything clever. Just let them in and overpower. Simple.

Ye, gathering all Sith in one place, very intelligence. His intelligence in combat goes as far as throw Force lightning barrage, if mind domination for some reason didn't work. Again it is demonstration that he simply walks in and kills them all without need to come up with something clever.

There were countless attempts to destroy Order by darksiders, by Yuuzhan Vong and military.

Simply put, there is no need to resort to combat and violence, when you can bend will of anyone and make them do what you want.

Plan to let them come in, then mind dominate or, if doesn't work, unleash Force lightning is indeed very intelligent approach of Vitiate. thumb up

At which point he decided not to kill her?

So defeating Malak equates to defeating Palpatine? big grin

Don't be kidding yourself.

Really? Prove?

I would say exactly the same about you but it is all useless rant. I suggest you refrain from that as it only increases already huge message size without any help.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nothing suggests that Satale is close enough to the Hero of Tython or Vitiates powerlevels for her to be able to resist him. Besides which, we don't know if she couldn't resist him , only that she believes that she wouldn't be able. She could be wrong.
Still caution is advised in this case. It is important to focus on the position of Satele Shan.

As a Grand Master of the Jedi Order, Satele Shan was an iconic figure in her time and led by examples. She did not shy away from challenges without solid reasons and neither she would make excuses. Therefore, she should be taken seriously.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its unknown how long the period time is that the game spans, but we've seen that its possible for jedi to grow in power exceedingly quickly, such as in the case of Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr. This goes double if the Hero of Tython uses the darkside, which is known to allow to grant power extremely swifly.
You have a point here. Not underestimating Hero of Tython; Vitiate ended up as being vulnerable during Jedi Knight Act 3 in addition.

It seems as if Hero of Tython fought on his own terms during second confrontation.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They were also inside a powerful darkside nexus though. Was Vitiate weakened more than he was boosted by that?
I believe that the impact of darkside nexus is often overhyped. It never turns a weak individual in to a powerhouse.

Originally posted by Nephthys
However there is another possibility. Its possible that the being who faced the Hero of Tython at the end of the JK Act 2 quest was the Emperors True Body, while the one he faced at the end of the game was merely the Emperors Voice. Its possible that the Voice cannot use his telepathic powers, either at all or not to their full extent.

Thats just a possibility though.
Very interesting assumption. I also believe that Vitiate would be strongest in his original body.

In case of second confrontation: It is confirmed that Hero of Tython defeated a Voice of the Vitiate.

In case of first confrontation: It should be noted that Vitiate was wearing a mask during this encounter. And Vitiate's attacks were also much more overwhelming during this encounter.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres nothing indicating that the Emperor's mind-controlling powers are unblockable.
Of course, his mental powers are not infallible. But many have fallen to his mental powers at least once. And their is no indication of permanent defence against his mental powers either.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan was able to sense Vitiate preparing to attack, so will Marek.
Revan was fully prepared to deal with Vitiate during second confrontation. Marek's position is different in comparison.

It should be kept in mind that Vitiate's mental powers work swiftly. The opponent gets very little time to think and react.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Furthermore, Vitiate is one of the most influential figures in Galactic History, and at the time of TOR the council knew about his abilities, including his telepathic ones. Vader and Starkiller had access to that knowledge, so its very probable that Marek knows about his abilities, and he certainly knows who he is.
This still does not helps Marek. Because Revan and Malak learned a great deal about Vitiate too before confronting him first time. And both got owned. Most individuals expecting a formal fight from Vitiate end up getting confused and dominated rather.

Of course, many would have known a thing or two about Vitiate but this is not sufficient enough to turn the tide in actual fight with him.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
You didn't notice this:
I have.

Here is my response in return:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nephthys highlighted Scourge's opinion. Was the fight harder with Lightside choices?

I quoted you instead because you made this statement:

Originally posted by Arhael
And Nephthys proved he gathered his strength anyway.

Can you answer my question with evidence?

Originally posted by Arhael
Irrelevant
No.

This is in response to this statement of yours:

Originally posted by Arhael
How long did it take her to become Head of State and Sith Grand Master? She lost because of crazy idea to make Son and Daughter out of Ben and Vestara.

--------------

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke got distracted by Alima's hatred projection. Lumya used that exact moment to strike him. Yes, it shows her intelligence. At the end Luke put three blaster bolts into her chest. She was thought dead for a while. He was disarmed, Force exhausted, fatally wounded and on his ass at that point and still won.
Ok. Yes%

Arhael

No.

This is in response to this statement of yours:
The point why I said that is because Abeloth's power surpassed Sith by far, so she bent their will and dominated. Same for Vitiate, his power surpassed any Sith by far, so he, also, bent their will and dominated. Long ago you said yourself that their capabilities aren't that different. In any case they both were intelligent in their own right. The difference is that Vitiate was much more careful. And he was clever enough not to participate in that hopeless Hyperspace war. He preferred hiding in his quarters and make others do the job. While Abeloth was actively participating herself, plotting various conspiracies and infiltrating governments. Like she turned Falanacy against Skywalkers. Influenced Empire to vote for Daala. Influenced republic to vote for her. Also, she were well aware of her political weakness, so she didn't take over bodies of Wynn Dorvan and Daala and used them instead.

In any case fohh this intelligence topic. There is more interesting thread "Primer of Emperor", which rises a few interesting and debatable theories.

Arhael

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your arguments are not making sense anymore. I suggest that you do some serious thinking before you respond next time. Their is no need to rush.To your nonsense logic my arguments will never make sense. I told you already, stop this useless comments, it is insulting and doesn't help.

On video he used Force lightning until every Jedi fell. Prove that he or any known character in entire EU could utilize force lightning and mind domination simultaneously. In book Vitiate never showed that.

Ye. That's really great argument. Vitiate that never faced someone at least as nearly as powerful as himself cannot be surprised. And Marek with his TK capable to move star destroyers is nothing surprising.

Listen, your argument about Satele Shan becoming mind dominated is opinion as well. Whatever you say, you cannot prove that she is defenseless against mind domination.

So now you try to prove your point with non-canon material. thumb up

This fact was valid until Palpatine had to fight Marek. When they started fighting, there was clear intention of him killing Marek. Good luck with proving that Palpatine was holding back in fight with Marek thumb up

.

Where your refusals will get you? There are facts playing in both favors.

It is not contradiction. First statement is realistic analysis that both Satele and Marek might be mind dominated as well as resist it. Second statement is my own opinion as facts playing in my favor are enough to convince me personally.

Your most logical assessment made you believe that Vitiate could utilize Force lightning and mind domination simultaneously big grin

And there is nothing logical in trying to prove that Vitiate pawns and mind dominates every single most powerful Jedi in the EU.
I don't like either of these characters. And I already told you to stop talking this kind of shit. Yet, you continue doing exactly that, it is unnecessary provocation.

Either Satele or Marek alone have a chance against Vitiate like it or not. There are plenty of facts supporting both your and my opinions. You can't win it.

Luke is one of the most powerful users known. Vitiate, also, had favorable circumstances, when he dominated Revan and Malak. And unlike Revan and Malak Luke wasn't caught off guard by surprise. And Palpatine didn't need to render him unconscious like in the case with Jedi strike team.

Sure, flooring Palpatine is nothing special...

Never argued against that.

If he started practicing his mind domination from 6 year old, then 4 years is enough time to reach your power levels.

Some years later;

"Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate's control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims."

WHAT? It was ritual performed with their participation. In no way it was Vitiate vs 100 Sith.

And again JK and his comrades were floored with Force lightning. Video proves it. And with mental guard down it's not a big deal to dominate someone.

you keep lowballing Luke's intelligence and praise Vitiate's.
Here is summary:
Luke
Luke spent years of training in lightsaber combat and in the Force. Many times faced more powerful foes. Many times he faced situations, where odds were against him. Many times he had to somehow outwit opponents. Many times he engaged against multiple opponents. Lightsaber combat for instance requires intelligence everytime, it's not as simple as playing baseball. He always had to make self assessment, mainain his calm, think about right approach. Seek help from others and being able to coordinate with them in combat is, also, part of intelligence.

Vitiate
He never needed to learn lightsaber combat at all.
His power alone compensated everything.
Never had to try to outwit opponent in combat. His superior power allowed him in all cases simply mind dominate opponents without need to fight. A few times, when mind domination didn't work he used lightning, which is another way to overpower opponent without need to come up with anything clever.
Dooku for example used lightning intelligently in CW, he used lightning at the right moment catching Ventress and Anakin off guard because otherwise they would have blocked it with lightsaber. Same for Sidious, he caught Yoda off guard in combat, so Yoda got disarmed and had to absorb with bare hands.
In Vitiate's case he simply got pissed and started gathering power giving Revan time to gether his powers as well. There is nothing clever in that and this is NOT intelligent way of handling someone. Vitiate's power was such that while child without need to learn any skills he utilized mind domination alone. So you call 6 year old child intelligent and skilled combatant?

Even, if Luke didn't need intelligence as much as some others, he still needed it >>>> than Vitiate because Vitiate's power was >>>> than Luke's. There is not single example of Vitiate trying to outwit opponent because his superior power always allowed him to overpower them (except JK).

Abeloth was mortal human that gained power by bathing in Pool of Knowledge and Font of Power. Daughter bathed in Pool of Knowledge only. Talon did that as well and in books it was stated that he was becoming another Abeloth.

No need to be ignorant and discard arguments not playing in favor of your opinion.

I merely respond to your insult with insult. No more, no less.

Yoda fell down unable to even slow his fall. Koro Zill just collapsed face first. Exhausted is exhausted whether it is some ritual or fight.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke got distracted by Alima's hatred projection. Lumya used that exact moment to strike him. Yes, it shows her intelligence. At the end Luke put three blaster bolts into her chest. She was thought dead for a while. He was disarmed, Force exhausted, fatally wounded and on his ass at that point and still won.
Ok. Yes, this is an indication of Luke's intelligence.

This incident reminds of how Obi-Wan killed GG.

Originally posted by Arhael
So you are calling 6+ child intelligent and skilled combatant? rolling on floor laughing

This is not how you judge a fictional character. In fiction, even a baby can be a genius.

Originally posted by Arhael
He was mind dominating whoever was nearby to him. Sith came and same fate awaited him. Indeed he was wunderkind. big grin

He didn't need intelligence, his power alone ensured his dominance. He didn't learn any skills, he simply toyed with enormous power he possessed.
No. Pay attention to the provided information.

Even at such a young age, Tenebrae understood things around him very well. He planned his ascendency to power. Methods employed might be brutal but he did not killed and mind dominated everybody. Many joined him willingly. A time came when he amassed legions of followers. At the age of 10, he fought and killed Lord Dramath (ruler of Nathema) and claimed his throne. At the age of 13, Tenebrae was officially recognized as Lord Vitiate and his rule over Nathema was legitimized by DLOTS of the ancient Sith Empire, Marka Ragnos. This is amazing accomplishment for such a young individual.

So how many intelligent kids have matched Vitiate in this aspect?

Originally posted by Arhael
This is intelligence in convincing and mind influencing, it is irrelevant to combat. He didn't need intelligence in combat. He simply mind controlled them and they were unable to resist. Simple example of his superior power. What combat skills you talk about I have no clue, when they simply couldn't resist his mind domination. Blatant overpowering, a human stomping a cockroach.
Vitiate uses his mental powers during combat situations, No? So your point is moot.

After becoming the ruler of Nathema, Vitiate planned something bigger. For this plan to work he wanted to use and consume many Force-wielders. He took advantage of the opportunity made available to him by the Great Hyperspace War which devastated the Ancient Sith Empire and threw many survivors in disarray. When some Sith Lords came to him, Vitiate used his mental powers to subdue them all and use them. No ifs and buts. Clearly this example positively reflects on his intelligence and combat capability.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ones again how is it relevant to combat and what is intelligent about it? He simply allowed them to come in, which doesn't strike as very intelligent thing. They came and bowed down to him without any fight. Another example of his superior power that he doesn't need to come up with anything clever. Just let them in and overpower. Simple.
This is why I advice you to do your homework before you respond.

Revan and Malak planned to assassinate Vitiate. They wanted to get inside his stronghold but something had to be done about the Imperial Guard. They bribed a senior Imperial Guard official to let them in when the time would be right. Unfortunately for them, Imperial Guard always has been extremely loyal to Vitiate because it had special link with him. Vitiate obtained information about the Jedi through his Imperial Guard and used the bribed official to lure the Jedi to him. Plan was good; the Jedi will not suspect anything and Vitiate will take them by surprise. His plan worked brilliantly.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ye, gathering all Sith in one place, very intelligence. His intelligence in combat goes as far as throw Force lightning barrage, if mind domination for some reason didn't work. Again it is demonstration that he simply walks in and kills them all without need to come up with something clever.
Palpatine behaves similarly. And I guess that Palpatine is nothing short of a genius to you.

Lure or summon an individual; ask the individual to join or die; if manipulation works, Good; if not, then throw Force Lightning barrage. End of story.

Sounds similar, Right?

Originally posted by Arhael
There were countless attempts to destroy Order by darksiders, by Yuuzhan Vong and military.
I am not talking about this.

Originally posted by Arhael
Simply put, there is no need to resort to combat and violence, when you can bend will of anyone and make them do what you want.
Vitiate doesn't mind dominates everybody. He uses his mental powers when necessary.

Originally posted by Arhael
Plan to let them come in, then mind dominate or, if doesn't work, unleash Force lightning is indeed very intelligent approach of Vitiate. thumb up

See above.

Originally posted by Arhael
At which point he decided not to kill her?
During the duel.

Originally posted by Arhael
So defeating Malak equates to defeating Palpatine? big grin

Don't be kidding yourself.
I am talking about his entire performance on Star Forge.

And Malak was no longer an ordinary Sith at this point. He was well-prepared for combat and used the Star Forge to his advantage.

Originally posted by Arhael
Really? Prove?
Did Dooku reduced any individual to charred ash with a minor burst of his Force Lightning?

Could Dooku incinerate a powerful opponent with his Force Lightning?

Originally posted by Arhael
I would say exactly the same about you but it is all useless rant. I suggest you refrain from that as it only increases already huge message size without any help.
It would be better if you try to improve your arguments. As of now, you are arguing just for the sake of argument.

Arhael

This is not how you judge a fictional character. In fiction, even a baby can be a genius.Yes, mind dominated everyone in vicinity is indeed genius. thumb up

Incorrect. He didn't fight Lord Dramath. He mind dominated him before any fight could start.

How many kids had capability to mind dominate Sith Lords?

Incorrect. He used mental powers before any combat could start. There is no example of him using mind domination in the middle of a fight. So, my point is valid. Even, if with no mind domination, he still overpowers with lightning and, even if he doesn't use lightning and opponent get close, he still overpowers with TK. But since he does have mind domination, he doesn't let them fight at all. In any case he is able to overpower without need to come up with anything clever.

It reflects on intelligence but not intelligence in combat.

Stick your advice to your ass.

I am not arguing against his intelligence in general. You discard most Luke's feats as irrelevant to combat. There was no combat between him and Revan and Malak. Before fight could start he crushed their will. No fight = no intelligence in combat.

Was Luke worthy opponent at that point for any need to come up with something intelligent to kill him? No. Palpatine did not need intelligence to kill Luke.
However, if we look at fights with worthy opponents like Yoda, Windu, Marek and DE Luke, then what happened? Correct, he had to use lightsaber, positional advantages and surroundings. It wasn't even remotely as simple as standing in one place like a dummy, mind dominate and, if failed, electrocute. Vitiate didn't have combat skills. He had extremely powerful abilities that he could unleash at any time and that no one could defend against.

Specify. During the first fight he thought that he fought Luke, thank's to Luke's illusions mastery. In second fight he desperately tried to kill her as his daughter was in danger, then she crippled his leg and realizing that any attempts with one working leg and arm were futile, he stopped fighting to send mental warning.

"Entire performance" is not a good evidence, it doesn't have any measurement to make even relative comparisons. Also, whatever advantage Malak had, it still does not equate to Palpatine.

Nyriss did not incinerate anyone to ashes with her lightning. Moreover, her lightning was comfortably absorbed the same way as Yoda absorbed Dooku's.

Dooku's lightning was potent enough to incapacitate Anakin and witches within mere seconds. Even close to RotS post Mortis Anakin was struggling to recover after his lightning attack.
I, also, point out that Vitiate's lightning didn't turn to ashes Revan and Jedi strike team either and his lightning was described as "infinitely" more powerful, than hers, which means that her lightning was much weaker.

I advice you the same thing.

SIDIOUS 66

Although Marek did put up a struggle against Palpatine, TFU novel, comic, and game cutscene all made it clear that Marek was not strong enough to defeat Palpatine. Marek was going to die either way. But then again, Vitiate is no Palpatine, so...

If Marek can counteract Vitiate's mind powers, he will be able to solo this fight.

Suck It Ush

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Although Marek did put up a struggle against Palpatine, TFU novel, comic, and game cutscene all made it clear that Marek was not strong enough to defeat Palpatine. Marek was going to die either way. But then again, Vitiate is no Palpatine, so...

If Marek can counteract Vitiate's mind powers, he will be able to solo this fight.

In some regard Vitiate is no Palpatine and in that insane mind control thing, Palpatine is no Vitiate. If hundreds of sith lords came under the sway of Vitiate, Marek doesn't stand a prayer. This isn't even close.

Darth_Sexier

Nah, Marek ragdolls Vitiate and once this comes down to combat, Vitiate goes down quicker than Zamp's mom.

Suck It Ush

Originally posted by Darth_Sexier
Nah, Marek ragdolls Vitiate and once this comes down to combat, Vitiate goes down quicker than Zamp's mom.

Marek has as much chance of winning as you do of attracting the opposite sex.

Darth_Sexier

Originally posted by Suck It Ush
Marek has as much chance of winning as you do of attracting the opposite sex.

So you mean to say that his victory is guaranteed?

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Suck It Ush
In some regard Vitiate is no Palpatine and in that insane mind control thing, Palpatine is no Vitiate. If hundreds of sith lords came under the sway of Vitiate, Marek doesn't stand a prayer. This isn't even close.

Without his rituals Vitiate is no Palpatine in mental powers.

I hate Vitiate. He is a Palpatine rip-off. lol

Suck It Ush

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Without his rituals Vitiate is no Palpatine in mental powers.

I hate Vitiate. He is a Palpatine rip-off. lol

There is nothing indicating anyone other than Palpatine could withstand such a "ritual".

Darth_Sexier

If both guys go into this on their A-game, Marek stands a definite chance of overcoming Vitiate's mind control. It wasn't instantaneous in Revan and the titular character stopped it by putting Vitiate on his ass. Marek is more than capable of doing that and Vitiate is simply no match for him in a fight.

Darth Ray Park

Could somebody list feats for Vitiate please?

Darth Ray Park

If the first thing is true, is that the most top tier Force Users somebody has ever dominated (mind, physically, whatever) with their Force powers?

Darth_Sexier

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
If the first thing is true, is that the most top tier Force Users somebody has ever dominated (mind, physically, whatever) with their Force powers?

Top tier? erm

These Sith Lords are featless and are top tier, but Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin (who actually have feats) are not top tier?

Try again, bro. laughing out loud

Anyways, no.

Darth Ray Park

I'm not actually too familiar with how TOR Sith Empire was structured but I meant top tier in the same wya I would consider a Jedi Master (any) a top tier Force User.

Obviously of course there is top tier (Kit Fisto e.g.) and then there is TOP TIER (Nihilus or Abeloth).

Darth_Sexier

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Jews stand out at a Nuremberg rally less than does Gideon in SWVF.

Gideon stands out at SWVF less than Stealth Moose at a MENSA conference/LGBT rally.

Marek solos.

/thread

Stealth Moose

Was that an attempt at being witty? Because if so, you fail.

Darth_Sexier

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Was that an attempt at being witty? Because if so, you fail.

Is this an attempt to be witty and condescending at the same time? Because if so, you fail harder.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by Darth_Sexier
Is this an attempt to be witty and condescending at the same time? Because if so, you fail harder.

It's interesting to see a time when Darth Ray Park has better comebacks. You know, for posterity.

Darth_Sexier

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's interesting to see a time when Darth Ray Park has better comebacks. You know, for posterity.

His are better than yours, true. But whose aren't?

Darth_Sexier

It's been five minutes and le Moose has been stumped. (I'm not surprised, I hear 5 minutes is usually beyond him in every respect.) I claim eternal victory.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
The point why I said that is because Abeloth's power surpassed Sith by far, so she bent their will and dominated. Same for Vitiate, his power surpassed any Sith by far, so he, also, bent their will and dominated. Long ago you said yourself that their capabilities aren't that different. In any case they both were intelligent in their own right. The difference is that Vitiate was much more careful. And he was clever enough not to participate in that hopeless Hyperspace war. He preferred hiding in his quarters and make others do the job. While Abeloth was actively participating herself, plotting various conspiracies and infiltrating governments. Like she turned Falanacy against Skywalkers. Influenced Empire to vote for Daala. Influenced republic to vote for her. Also, she were well aware of her political weakness, so she didn't take over bodies of Wynn Dorvan and Daala and used them instead.

In any case fohh this intelligence topic. There is more interesting thread "Primer of Emperor", which rises a few interesting and debatable theories.
1. Abeloth is not a Sith. She was a practitioner of Sith powers though.

2. This is good analysis. smile

3. Abeloth lack in fighting discipline. She is careless and can overexert herself, which she did. In comparison, Vitiate is much more calculative and clever.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
To your nonsense logic my arguments will never make sense. I told you already, stop this useless comments, it is insulting and doesn't help.
You are not in the position to judge me. When any argument from you does make sense, I acknowledge it openly. You do not have such courtesy either.

Originally posted by Arhael
On video he used Force lightning until every Jedi fell. Prove that he or any known character in entire EU could utilize force lightning and mind domination simultaneously. In book Vitiate never showed that.
Like I said, ask Drew. He is in a better position to clarify this.

However, we do get a hint later on:

PrxU-vp3IyY

00:22 - 00:40

Originally posted by Arhael
Ye. That's really great argument. Vitiate that never faced someone at least as nearly as powerful as himself cannot be surprised. And Marek with his TK capable to move star destroyers is nothing surprising.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Marek controlled the movements of a Star Destroyer for a while with full concentration on it. Such concentration requires extreme clarity in mind which is possible in a meditative state.

Powerful force wielders can do amazing things while meditating. It allows them to concentrate fully on a single purpose and project power in such a manner that seems impossible otherwise.

For example when Luke Skywalker decided to manipulate a black hole, he sat down and opened his mind fully towards it - blocking all other thoughts. He fully concentrated on this purpose.

Combat situation is a very different thing. Lot of things are going in the mind.

Originally posted by Arhael
Listen, your argument about Satele Shan becoming mind dominated is opinion as well. Whatever you say, you cannot prove that she is defenseless against mind domination.
Useless rant. Satele was not an amateur when she made that decision.

Originally posted by Arhael
So now you try to prove your point with non-canon material. thumb up

.
An intelligent person in your place would have understood my point in this regard. I was expecting too much from you, it seems.

What you have stated is not necessary. Malak convinced Bastilla to embrace the dark side with his powers. Sidious had similar plan. Major hint is that when Marek died, Sidious was not happy.

And it has been explicitly stated in this source that Marek was no match for the Emperor.

Get it?

Originally posted by Arhael
Where your refusals will get you? There are facts playing in both favors.
You should start concentrating on yours. I am willing to work with you if you are willing to listen to the issues that I pointed out in your arguments.

Originally posted by Arhael
It is not contradiction. First statement is realistic analysis that both Satele and Marek might be mind dominated as well as resist it. Second statement is my own opinion as facts playing in my favor are enough to convince me personally.
Facts are not playing in your favor. You are refusing to accept important clues from canonical materials that do no favor your opinion.

Originally posted by Arhael
Your most logical assessment made you believe that Vitiate could utilize Force lightning and mind domination simultaneously big grin

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Sure, flooring Palpatine is nothing special...
What?

This is from the novelization:

Murdering Darth Vader would accomplish nothing. Saving his friends might change the course of history.

Seen in that light, the decision was surprisingly easy.

A hail of shattered transparisteel and debris drove the Emperor back from Kota, breaking his concentration and freeing the Jedi Master from the fatal web of energy. Smoking and weak, Kota fell away and was caught by Garm Bel Iblis. The apprentice tossed them the comlink and advanced on Palpatine.

"Good," hissed the Emperor, his claw-like hands upraised between them like a weak old man fending off an attacker. Stumbling, he fell to his knees. "Yes." He looked up at the apprentice. "You were destined to destroy me. Do it! Give in to your hatred!"

The apprentice stood over him for a moment with his lightsaber upraised. Its aqua light reflected in the eyes of the galaxy's Emperor as though it was the last thing he would ever see.

With a snap, the apprentice extinguished the blade and lowered his arm.

Kota limped up behind him and put a hand on his shoulder. "That's it, boy," he said with rough pride. "He's beaten. Let it go."

The sound of engines from above distracted them both. They looked up to see the Rogue Shadow descending over the shattered dome, lights flashing on and off to attract their attention. Its repulsors dispelled the last of the smoke and sent the apprentice's tattered cape whipping around his legs.

Juno, he thought. At last, everything is going to be all right.

"You fool!" snarled the Emperor, sending another wave of Sith lightning into Kota's back. "He will never be yours."

Kota fell with his arms upraised, and the apprentice knew that it wasn't over yet. The moment of truth had arrived.

Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.

The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

"Go!" he hissed at Kota. "Hurry!"

The general hesitated only for a moment. He, too, had seen a glimpse of the future, the apprentice remembered. He knew that it came down to a simple choice: him and the Rebels or the apprentice and darkness forever. Gathering up the Rebels, Kola ushered them toward the descending ship.

Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to.

A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp.

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.

Tossed like a leaf, the Rogue Shadow fled in haste, ramp snapping shut on its precious cargo.

The apprentice felt himself leaving his body again. Or was his body leaving him this time? He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook. The fire on his face possessed no heat at all. His limbs felt as distant as the farthest arms of the galaxy. He was amazed there was enough left of him to think at all.

Weakened by the blast, the dome's supports gave way. It collapsed into the superlaser dish, triggering a series of conventional explosions. Stormtroopers converged on the site. Through the dense smoke, two figures were visible from the apprentice's rarefied perspective.

Darth Vader struggled to his feet from the rubble, even more damaged than before. He reached out for support and found only his Master, scowling.

Together, unspeaking, they searched the rubble.

When they found what they were looking for, neither of them looked any happier for it.

"He is dead," the Dark Lord intoned, gazing dispassionately at the body at their feet.

This moment, the apprentice thought. I saw this!

"Then he is now more powerful than ever." The Emperor glanced up, watching sourly as the Rogue Shadow sped away into the busy sky. "He was meant to root out the Rebels, not give them hope. His sacrifice will only inspire them."

"But now we know who they are, my Master. I will hunt them down and destroy them, as you always intended-starting with the traitor Bail Organa."

The Emperor waved him silent and turned to walk away. "Patience, Lord Vader. Far better to destroy a man's hope first. Or that of someone close to him ..."

----------------------------------

Now point out to me that where did Marek floored Sidious?

Originally posted by Arhael
Never argued against that.
So what is the problem in this thread? Your personal liking for Marek, it seems.

Originally posted by Arhael
If he started practicing his mind domination from 6 year old, then 4 years is enough time to reach your power levels.
Now imagine his proficiency in mental powers during Satele's time.

Originally posted by Arhael
WHAT? It was ritual performed with their participation. In no way it was Vitiate vs 100 Sith.
Really?

"Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate's control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims."

I will ask you again! Do you suffer from short-term memory loss?

Those Sith Lords were not willing participants. They were made to.

Originally posted by Arhael
And again JK and his comrades were floored with Force lightning. Video proves it. And with mental guard down it's not a big deal to dominate someone.
See above

Arhael

You are not in the position to judge me. When any argument from you does make sense, I acknowledge it openly. You do not have such courtesy either.Agreed. But you provoked me by your belittling phrases. It's human nature to respond insult with insult.

In other words you cannot prove that Vitiate could dominate worthy opponent without element of surprise during combat.

Indeed. The first thing is how Marek Force blasts Palpatine both in game and comic book. See images below.

There is no prove she was defenseless against Vitiate, she never faced him. Useless of you trying to prove non-provable.

Another insult. See above.

Malak had Bastilla restrained and tortured her. Major fact is that Palpatine unleash full power of his lightning on Marek and he still could resist it, analyse surroundings and sacrifice himself by creating explosion. (I don't have source, wookieepedia claims that it was him, who created explosion to save others, tell me, if I am wrong).

Really?
Facts:
Marek defeated Vader and matched Palpatine in Force struggle.
Stale Shan was wisely recognized as the most powerful Jedi of her time. And overpowered Malgus, who arguably second in power only to Vitiate.
Vitiate: lost to JK.
JK: no facts suggesting that he is above Satele or Marek.

So am I. And to me your arguments are often absurd but our opinions about each other and self-evaluation shouldn't matter in any case.

That's a bold claim.
Facts:
They did not come to fight, they came for help.
They were broken, they feared for their life.
Influencing and convincing person that needs help and inspiration during conversation i much easier, than influencing person that has intent to kill you, has all defenses up and uses offensive powers against you.
By the time of ritual they all participated.
Not facts:
He mind dominated them simultaneously. He could have done dominating session with each one at a time.
They all were mind dominated.
Any of them were at lest remotely as powerful as Vitiate.
Nyriss' knowledge is correct and not exaggerated.

Ok, here is my math. Vitiate did not handle them simultaneously. He fought Revan 1x1. After electrocution Revan was done, so Vitiate never faced all thee simultaneously. Meetra and Scourge couldn't handle even Nyriss.

Far superior power. Darkside nexus. Own field. And as you said earlier element of surprise.

When did Palpatine try to mind dominate Leia? wink

Also, Leia had confidence of a pregnant mother. You can't counter it. big grin

Mind domination indeed came to Vitiate naturally and he has much more examples of its demonstration. But Palpatine's examples of having Luke and Kam Solusar mind dominated are no less impressive. Palpatine had much more joy in making his victims accept darkside instead of simply crushing their will, here is the difference.

http://s12.radikal.ru/i185/1206/ac/7070f58ce1e5.jpg
http://i037.radikal.ru/1206/c2/e3ee23776554.jpg

Comic can be considered short cut of novel. Yet, even there Marek is shown pounding Palpatine like in game. Both novel and comic are based on game. Either authors have lack of agreement in what happened or you simply skipped part of text unsuitable to your cause.

It's getting repetitive. Ones again, I am talking about need of intelligence in combat. In combat he overpowers everyone. There is nothing intelligent in that.

That's getting ridiculous. I am not talking about raw potential. Prior DE Luke was not in his prime and did meet more powerful and knowledgeable opponents that could out skill, overpower or Force blast to death him. Datomiri witches is one example. Joruus C'Baot is another and most notable example. Even post DE we have Lord Nyax and Unu'Thul.

So? Unlike Vitiate he could not mind dominate opponents. Did not have Force lightning that could overwhelm anyone. There are surprisingly few examples, where he subdued someone with the Force, he always had to rely on more clever things. And most important, unlike Vitiate he did meed more powerful opponents, to Vitiate it never happened and will not.

I already proved otherwise. However, you didn't. All you gave is his irrelevant to combat intelligence. In combat he stays in one place and opponent can't do a thing against him because he is way more powerful. Analogy is Sidious vs RotJ Luke, can we conclude on this example that Palpatine was more intelligent combatant? No.

And?

And that is not what I am trying to prove. Vitiate's intelligence in combat is my focus.

I concede. Vitiate couldn't survive without lightsaber because during combat his opponents were powerful enough to resist his Force attacks. thumb up

How many situations would Luke survive without lightsaber? Almost none. Why? Because power alone wasn't enough for him to defeat opponents. He couldn't overpower with Force opponents, the way Vitiate could. The fact that Vitiate didn't need one proves that superior power alone gives him victory.
His plan: let them come to you.
His preparation for a fight: Sit down on his throne and gather power.
His action: overpower.
Don't recall it to be at least remotely as easy for Luke.

More prominent, than Vitiate? Don't remember him subduing all his opponents. Even, when he can, he prefers harder way.

Again. It is intelligence in general. I am talking about combat specifically.

Irrelevant to combat.

Again. This is not combat intelligence. And the fact that his Voice subdued Jedi strike team with wave of a hand doesn't help your cause. He didn't fight any worthy opponents that could resist his powers, therefore, he didn't need to try to outwit/outskill them in combat.

Obviously not from Cade era. Sarasu Taalon. Yes, one a was missing but there was only one Sith that bathed in Pool of Knowledge, thought, you are aware of those events.

You should stop saying "you should" and "I advice" like I am a kid, it is insulting.
Indeed, my mistake answering with insults to your insults.

Indeed, Vitiate could not get exhausted. Even galaxy level ritual only weakened him. Also, "this is not so simple" doesn't support your cause. And again. Scourge confirms that JK gave him time to gather power, so "weakened" topic is irrelevant.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, mind dominated everyone in vicinity is indeed genius. thumb up

He did not mind dominated everybody. Your claim is baseless.

Originally posted by Arhael
Incorrect. He didn't fight Lord Dramath. He mind dominated him before any fight could start.
And you know this how?

Originally posted by Arhael
How many kids had capability to mind dominate Sith Lords?
How many kids planned their rise to power?

Originally posted by Arhael
Incorrect. He used mental powers before any combat could start.
You are wrong. Vitiate typically uses his mental powers when he expects a fight or plans to use an opponent.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is no example of him using mind domination in the middle of a fight. So, my point is valid.
Really?

1. Remember his second encounter with Revan?

2. Remember his encounter with the Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga?

Originally posted by Arhael
Even, if with no mind domination, he still overpowers with lightning and, even if he doesn't use lightning and opponent get close, he still overpowers with TK. But since he does have mind domination, he doesn't let them fight at all. In any case he is able to overpower without need to come up with anything clever.
This is lame argument. Of course, Vitiate puts his talents to use in duels. When things will not work in favor, then he will think of something clever. Oh wait! He already has a solution: Fight with a Voice. Nice.

Originally posted by Arhael
It reflects on intelligence but not intelligence in combat.
Even if you think so, this example proves that Vitiate plans his moves first.

Originally posted by Arhael
Stick your advice to your ass.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Arhael
I am not arguing against his intelligence in general. You discard most Luke's feats as irrelevant to combat. There was no combat between him and Revan and Malak. Before fight could start he crushed their will. No fight = no intelligence in combat.
Whether you consider this combat or not, it was a smart move. Controlling the outcome is a strong indication of intelligence.

And I do not discard Luke's feats. Do not make baseless assumptions about me.

Originally posted by Arhael
Was Luke worthy opponent at that point for any need to come up with something intelligent to kill him? No. Palpatine did not need intelligence to kill Luke.
However, if we look at fights with worthy opponents like Yoda, Windu, Marek and DE Luke, then what happened? Correct, he had to use lightsaber, positional advantages and surroundings. It wasn't even remotely as simple as standing in one place like a dummy, mind dominate and, if failed, electrocute. Vitiate didn't have combat skills. He had extremely powerful abilities that he could unleash at any time and that no one could defend against.
So is this Vitiate's fault? How about using Voices for combat purposes? Very good indication of his intelligence.

Originally posted by Arhael
Specify. During the first fight he thought that he fought Luke, thank's to Luke's illusions mastery. In second fight he desperately tried to kill her as his daughter was in danger, then she crippled his leg and realizing that any attempts with one working leg and arm were futile, he stopped fighting to send mental warning.
He could take her out with a poison dart. He didn't.

Originally posted by Arhael
"Entire performance" is not a good evidence, it doesn't have any measurement to make even relative comparisons.
Hint: Malak's conversations with his commander on Star Forge about Revan's advances.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, whatever advantage Malak had, it still does not equate to Palpatine.
Malak had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from the chained Jedi captives. He was very hard to defeat on Star Forge.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nyriss did not incinerate anyone to ashes with her lightning.
Wrong assumption. Even a normal burst of Force Lightning from her was lethal enough to reduce a normal individual to ash. She reduced two guards to ash simultaneously within 2 seconds.

Originally posted by Arhael
Moreover, her lightning was comfortably absorbed the same way as Yoda absorbed Dooku's.
Thanks to Revan's amazing command of the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku's lightning was potent enough to incapacitate Anakin and witches within mere seconds. Even close to RotS post Mortis Anakin was struggling to recover after his lightning attack.
Nyriss's signature FLS was so potent that she would have reduced both Dooku and Anakin to ash with it. Now do not come up with Jedi Order's greatest bullshit. It means nothing in this case.

Originally posted by Arhael
I, also, point out that Vitiate's lightning didn't turn to ashes Revan
Vitiate would have destroyed Revan with his signature FLS. Thanks to T3-M4, Revan lived.

Originally posted by Arhael
and Jedi strike team either
Vitiate planned to use those Jedi. Therefore, he spared them.

Originally posted by Arhael
and his lightning was described as "infinitely" more powerful, than hers, which means that her lightning was much weaker.
Shitty argument.

Originally posted by Arhael
I advice you the same thing.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Arhael

He did not mind dominated everybody. Your claim is baseless. I was talking in general, refering specifically to cases, when somebody oposed him. He mind dominated, when he wanted, some children like toys, he liked mind dominating.

From Nyriss' story. She stated that it drew his attention. That he came to evaluate his son, not to fight. In any case the only thing child could do is overpower his father as he had no combat experience and never encountered another Force user before. If father could resist his mental attack, there would be no Vitiate.

There is nothing specifically stating that he planned to rise power. Only that he was mind dominating people and that phanatics arose idolizing him. And remember that it was father that came to him, he didn't invite him. And he didn't try to rule Nathema, it was Ragnos' initiative.

Which is the same as before any fight could start. Thanks for clarifying.

With Revan he tried it at the beginning before Revan could try anything(Which is before any fight could start). But after he failed, he never tried it against Revan.
With strike team he used Force lightning until all of them fell. No mind domination, Dun Moch at most.

So using Voices improves his chances of wining? big grin

In other words, if less powerful opponent has enough strength to resist his Force attacks, he has nothing clever to come up with to outwit or outskill his opponent in order to win, like in case with JK. You only enforced my point by mentioning Voices.

Intelligent move would be to set up a trap with assassins and many other possibile traps. Instead he allows them to come and simply overpowers. Why? Because his superior power allowes.

I am not arguing against his inteligence in general.
About Luke you was giving "but" and "however" to each of Luke's feats. Saying that Unu'Thul is overhyped piece of shit was especialy hillarious. I merely gave examples of Luke's intelligence and no matter how many buts and howevers you give, those examples still prove that he can't rely on power alone in most cases. Also, it's pointless to compare Luke to Caedus, Mara or any character with "Sith thinking" because Sith will always make most cunning, effective, easy and intelligent choices, while Jedi put morals above anything, even if it might cost them life. Name at least one Jedi who is clearly above Luke in intelligence apart from Mara with assassin training and Jaina with her mandalorian training.

Yes it is. If he learned lightsaber and hand-to-hand combat and was trying to use the right moment to use his Force powers cleverly to catch opponent off guard, then JK chances would be much much lower.
Voices is good indecation of his superior power and 1000 years knowledge. In terms of combat it doesn't improve his chances of winning whatsoever, therefore it is not combat intelligence.

What? Give me a quote, where he took out poison dart but couldn't force himself to use it because of love for his sister. Or atleast that he was thinking about it.
Or at least prove that he had a dart in his pocket. I will accept even wookieepedia source!

So all you have is a couple of vague statements with no real measurment for comparison, which is enough for you to believe that Revan can compare to Marek.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Agreed. But you provoked me by your belittling phrases. It's human nature to respond insult with insult.
When you will continue to reject my points without valid reasons, what will you expect in return?

Originally posted by Arhael
In other words you cannot prove that Vitiate could dominate worthy opponent without element of surprise during combat.
Vitiate can attempt to mind dominate such an opponent again. No big deal.

In addition, here is revelation from Drew Karpyshyn himself:

"I think it's pretty clear that the Sith Emperor did break their wills during the scene where the player and the others confront him."

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed. The first thing is how Marek Force blasts Palpatine both in game and comic book. See images below.
You do not get it.

Sidious was playing the same trick with Marek that he did with Luke later on. He was pretending to be helpless and weak and wanted Marek to give in to his hatred. Look at his face expression after the Force push. Also, focus on his comments at this moment.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is no prove she was defenseless against Vitiate, she never faced him. Useless of you trying to prove non-provable.
Why she refused to fight Vitiate?

Originally posted by Arhael
Malak had Bastilla restrained and tortured her. Major fact is that Palpatine unleash full power of his lightning on Marek and he still could resist it, analyse surroundings and sacrifice himself by creating explosion. (I don't have source, wookieepedia claims that it was him, who created explosion to save others, tell me, if I am wrong).
Yes! Marek caused that explosion. However, it is not clear if Marek could do stop Sidious in a fair fight.

Originally posted by Arhael
Really?
Facts:
Marek defeated Vader and matched Palpatine in Force struggle.
Stale Shan was wisely recognized as the most powerful Jedi of her time. And overpowered Malgus, who arguably second in power only to Vitiate.
Vitiate: lost to JK.
JK: no facts suggesting that he is above Satele or Marek.
- Marek's fight with Palpatine is inconclusive.
- Satele Shan was very powerful but reluctant to face Vitiate.
- It not clear where Malgus stands in the power hierarchy of the Vitiate's Sith Empire.
- JK have lot of victories under his belt. Scourge called him the Jedi Order's finest after fighting him. Do not underestimate him.

Originally posted by Arhael
So am I. And to me your arguments are often absurd but our opinions about each other and self-evaluation shouldn't matter in any case.
Sorry. You refuse to accept things that do not favor your opinion. You are a biased individual.

Originally posted by Arhael
They did not come to fight, they came for help.
They were broken, they feared for their life.
No comments.

Originally posted by Arhael
Influencing and convincing person that needs help and inspiration during conversation i much easier, than influencing person that has intent to kill you, has all defenses up and uses offensive powers against you.
They were Sith Lords and not normal individuals. Sith Lords only care about themselves. They do not give a damn about others, no matter how desperate the situation is.

Those 100 Sith Lords did not even trusted each other, let alone Vitiate. However, they were curious about Vitiate's offer.

Originally posted by Arhael
By the time of ritual they all participated.
They were made to participate. Try to understand the difference here.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not facts:
He mind dominated them simultaneously. He could have done dominating session with each one at a time.
They all were mind dominated.
Any of them were at lest remotely as powerful as Vitiate.
Really?

"Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate's control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims."

Seems like you are color blind. I have to highlight the statements for you again and again. And then you say that I insult you.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nyriss' knowledge is correct and not exaggerated.
Thanks for acknowledging this. You just went against your own baseless assumptions listed under Non facts right above with this.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ok, here is my math. Vitiate did not handle them simultaneously. He fought Revan 1x1. After electrocution Revan was done, so Vitiate never faced all thee simultaneously. Meetra and Scourge couldn't handle even Nyriss.
I know that Vitiate did not fought them simultaneously but he was ready to do so.

Even if Meetra and Scourge could not handle Nyriss, they should not be underestimated still. Both of them have history against very dangerous Sith Lords.

Originally posted by Arhael
Far superior power. Darkside nexus. Own field. And as you said earlier element of surprise.
Revan and Malak would have made a formidable pair. Anybody else in Vitiate's place would have died.

Originally posted by Arhael
When did Palpatine try to mind dominate Leia? wink

If he was so much capable with mental powers as you have originally claimed, why didn't he tried to do so? Leia was the greatest threat to his plans after all.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Leia had confidence of a pregnant mother. You can't counter it. big grin

This kind of bullshit does not works with me.

Originally posted by Arhael
Mind domination indeed came to Vitiate naturally and he has much more examples of its demonstration. But Palpatine's examples of having Luke and Kam Solusar mind dominated are no less impressive. Palpatine had much more joy in making his victims accept darkside instead of simply crushing their will, here is the difference.
Vitiate stands apart from others in this aspect. Accept this and move on.

Originally posted by Arhael
http://s12.radikal.ru/i185/1206/ac/7070f58ce1e5.jpg
http://i037.radikal.ru/1206/c2/e3ee23776554.jpg

Comic can be considered short cut of novel. Yet, even there Marek is shown pounding Palpatine like in game. Both novel and comic are based on game. Either authors have lack of agreement in what happened or you simply skipped part of text unsuitable to your cause.
I have skipped no part. Your point about the authors seem to be valid.

And during the so-called pounding part, Palpatine was playing tricks with Marek in the same manner as he did with Luke. When Palpatine supposedly became serious, Marek could not stop him.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's getting repetitive. Ones again, I am talking about need of intelligence in combat. In combat he overpowers everyone. There is nothing intelligent in that.
Your perception about intelligence relevant to combat is flawed. Intelligence can be displayed in any form and not just with fancy moves.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's getting ridiculous. I am not talking about raw potential. Prior DE Luke was not in his prime and did meet more powerful and knowledgeable opponents that could out skill, overpower or Force blast to death him.
Vader did not wanted to kill his son.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Datomiri witches is one example. Joruus C'Baot is another and most notable example.
And Luke got help in countering them. So?

Originally posted by Arhael
Even post DE we have Lord Nyax and Unu'Thul.
Luke was more powerful then both.

Against Unu'Thul, Luke did handled his mental attacks intelligently; using his past history with Unu'Thul against him. But the duel itself turned out to be a joke.

Originally posted by Arhael
So? Unlike Vitiate he could not mind dominate opponents. Did not have Force lightning that could overwhelm anyone. There are surprisingly few examples, where he subdued someone with the Force, he always had to rely on more clever things. And most important, unlike Vitiate he did meed more powerful opponents, to Vitiate it never happened and will not.
I disagree with your claim that he always had to rely on more clever things in post-DE periods. He did faced opponents who outsmarted him but not for long because once Luke would learn from his mistakes and his Gary-Stu powers would improve as well - he would destroy them all. And Abeloth was a terrible fighter.

Originally posted by Arhael
I already proved otherwise. However, you didn't. All you gave is his irrelevant to combat intelligence. In combat he stays in one place and opponent can't do a thing against him because he is way more powerful. Analogy is Sidious vs RotJ Luke, can we conclude on this example that Palpatine was more intelligent combatant? No.
Repeat:

Your perception about intelligence relevant to combat is flawed. Intelligence can be displayed in any form and not just with fancy moves.

Regarding Palpatines's analogy:

Why not? Palpatine planned the whole thing. He used Luke's father against him. When this plan did not work, he unleashed his powers on him. Luke was simply helpless and Palpatine was in control of everything until of course Vader turned against him. Yes, Palpatine underestimated the power of love in this case.

Originally posted by Arhael
And?
Ponder over your claim.

Originally posted by Arhael
And that is not what I am trying to prove. Vitiate's intelligence in combat is my focus.
Intelligence relevant to combat should be your focus.

Originally posted by Arhael
I concede. Vitiate couldn't survive without lightsaber because during combat his opponents were powerful enough to resist his Force attacks. thumb up

What is your point?

Originally posted by Arhael
How many situations would Luke survive without lightsaber? Almost none. Why? Because power alone wasn't enough for him to defeat opponents. He couldn't overpower with Force opponents, the way Vitiate could. The fact that Vitiate didn't need one proves that superior power alone gives him victory.
His plan: let them come to you.
His preparation for a fight: Sit down on his throne and gather power.
His action: overpower.
Don't recall it to be at least remotely as easy for Luke.
Vitiate's fighting strategy is vastly different from that of Luke. Vitiate is not very fond of exerting himself with lightsabers. Even Palpatine learned this the hard way. Their is no fun in getting hands chopped off and replaced by mechanical ones. Vitiate focused on developing his powers and use innovative methods/planning to deal with his opponents. His philiosophy of combat is 'power and planning' centric. In contrast, Luke have massively focused on martial aspects of combat. However, with his gary-stu like powers, things became a lot easier for him.

Originally posted by Arhael
More prominent, than Vitiate? Don't remember him subduing all his opponents. Even, when he can, he prefers harder way.
Almost everybody favors him in hypothetical contests. Even you do. Most are of the opinion that he is immune to Force powers. Typical assumptions are that no one can mind dominate him, no one can injure him, no one can handle him with the Force. And he has a lightsaber so he wins by default. He has Godly status. Therefore, he is the most prominent Gary Stu of Star Wars mythos.

Originally posted by Arhael
Again. It is intelligence in general. I am talking about combat specifically.
Repeat:

Your perception about intelligence relevant to combat is flawed. Intelligence can be displayed in any form and not just with fancy moves.

Originally posted by Arhael
Irrelevant to combat.
You attempted to portray Vitiate as a dumb shit. This is why I posted this bit of information.

Originally posted by Arhael
Again. This is not combat intelligence. And the fact that his Voice subdued Jedi strike team with wave of a hand doesn't help your cause. He didn't fight any worthy opponents that could resist his powers, therefore, he didn't need to try to outwit/outskill them in combat.
Again! You fail to understand the big picture here. Vitiate plays safe by using Voices. He managed to put his original body out of harms way in this manner for a long long time. This is clear indication of his intelligence which is also relevant to combat situations because Vitiate typically uses Voices in combat situations. Another thing is that those Jedi were accustomed to Luke like philosophy of combat. Vitiate was unlike any foe they encountered before. Here was a Sith who with combination of his powers and intelligence, could do wonders.

Originally posted by Arhael
Obviously not from Cade era. Sarasu Taalon. Yes, one a was missing but there was only one Sith that bathed in Pool of Knowledge, thought, you are aware of those events.
Vestara killed him. So how is Luke relevant in this case?

Originally posted by Arhael
You should stop saying "you should" and "I advice" like I am a kid, it is insulting.
Indeed, my mistake answering with insults to your insults.
Then how should one be able to convince you to open your mind? Or you do not wish to?

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, Vitiate could not get exhausted. Even galaxy level ritual only weakened him. Also, "this is not so simple" doesn't support your cause. And again. Scourge confirms that JK gave him time to gather power, so "weakened" topic is irrelevant.
Scourge's opinion in this regard is questionable because we did not see any noticeable difference in Vitiate's combat prowess. Remember that Sith are known to manipulate and lie for their agendas.

Arhael

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Luke got help in countering them. So?And what is wrong in that? And Vitiate got help in conquering half of the republic, so do I lowballing him for that?

And this statement based on what exactly? You have some room to argue about UnuThul but your assumption about Lord Nyax is baseless and wrong, Luke was no match for him both in the Force and lightsaber combat. Luke, Mara and Tahiri fought him with lightsabers simultaneously and couldn't defeat him (And he was inexperienced combatant as evidenced by analysis of a Yuuzhan Vong). Also, Luke made intelligent move, he executed a kick into his hand, so one of his 8 lightsabers could kill him but a safe mechanism switched off that lightsaber.
As for Force he simultaneously nearly mind dominated all three Jedi. When Luke, Mara and Tahiri got empowered by Force nexus, they only could throw heavier objects. When he got empowered, he was flying in the air high above and created huge storm of various objects destroying skyscrapers and Yuuzhan Vong ships. And that storm lasted even after he died.

Compare experience in lightsaber combat of Luke and Rainar Thul and it will make perfect sense. And superior lightsaber combat is not example of superior power.

Which shows his intelligence as there were more powerful opponents against him and he often was heavily outnumbered.

Indeed, so was Vitiate.

Then take your words back about dismissing Luke's feats as irrelevant to combat, you started this thing. Or finally start giving examples of intelligence during combat as it is the only thing that matters in versus thread.

There is nothing to ponder. It is sign of Jedi or Sith intelligence and common sense to use various tools and skills in order to increase their capabilities and chances of winning.
Lightsaber combat is one of them

That power alone gives him the win against any opponent. Power alone ensured his victory. You give same statement about Luke but it is multiple times more true about Vitiate.

It is way easier to sit on a throne and with superior power alone make your foe bend to your knees. Things for Luke have never been even remotely as easy. If Luke is Gary Stue, then Vitiate is his grandfather or at least Bandon's brother.

Name at least single Sith/Jedi that could mind dominate Vitiate. Name at least one Sith with lightning as strong as his, even Palpatine was proven to have weaker lightning in another thread. Name at least one Jedi/Sith that could handle him with Force alone. Name at least one Sith, who could handle four strong Jedi as easily as him. Name at least one Sith that leaved over millennium. Typical assumption is that no one can handle him alone. Even you refuse to agree that Marek and Satele had at least some tiny chance of defeating him 1x1.
How many times Luke lost to someone? A lot. But how many time Vitiate lost to someone? Only 1. How many times Vitiate had to at least break some sweat to defeat someone? Only two times: Revan, JK. And how many times Luke struggled and nearly died? A lot.
Clearly N1 Gary Stue is Vitiate.

I merely attempted to prove that both Satele and Marek had a chance to defeat Vitiate alone. While you had to bring up Luke irrelevant to the thread and attempted to portray him as a dumb shit by stating that he didn't need intelligence and power alone was ensuring his win, while it is much more true for Vitiate.

I know what voices are about. I, also, know that voices and intelligence demonstrated outside of combat has no weight in a Versus thread, where the only thing that matters is combat.

He fought him more, than ones, when odds were against him. And at one point he Force blasted him into a wall, so he broke his leg. His intelligence was shown during those fights.

Simple. First, stop bringing up irrelevant topics to the thread like intelligence outside combat, Luke and Abeloth.
Second, concede that each Marek and Satele had at least some chance against Vitiate alone. I never said that they pawn him, I agree that odds are on his side. Yet, you will never convince me that his victory is guarantied.

So is questionable opinion about Vitiate being weakened. Also, we don't see the fight, its game mechanics.

Arhael

He developed his mental powers to such a degree that he could use them like a weapon. He gave importance to those applications (Force based and others) which could help him succeed in his plans rather easily. Others did not realized the immense potential of mental powers and focused more on sorcery and superweapons. Vitiate made much better decisions in comparisons. Clearly, he was very intelligent.

You need to focus on the crux of the matters. Only then you will be able to make decent evaluations.
this is sign of his superior power and only. Lord Nyax had half brain missing because of that he couldn't even talk and operated on animal instincts. Yet, his mind domination is arguably the strongest in mythos. Yuuzhan Vong couldn't stop him. Luke, Mara and Tahiri couldn't outmatch him in combat. Do we call him intelligent for that as well?
I agree that Vitiate was very intelligent considering his over 1000 years life span. But still you can't say that he did much better decisions in comparison, it is too vague subject and his superior power allowed him to achieve much more, than others.

You only clarified it for me. He did not consider fighting him, either he was worthy for serving, or he simply would kill him. He would kill him, only, if Vitiate was weak, which is not true.

Conceded

In case if he meets an opponent that can resist his Force powers, I assumed you would come to the same conclusion. Indeed he is a good decision maker after living over 1000 years. But he got too smug thinking that all his life his power alone would be enough to handle anyone in combat.

Are you stupid or a retard? I asked you to stop it.

Conceded. Which enforces the fact even more that in combat he relied on power alone. There is no intelligence whatsoever in overpowering someone with shear force.

Stop directing me nowhere. He electrocutes them, until they are down. Your assumption has no weight. He had to fully concentrate to mind dominate one individual like Revan. Mind dominating simultaneously 4 Jedi in combat would be even bigger feat. But mind dominating, while using FLS, which is another ability requiring full concentration and gathering power, is highly unlikely and baseless assumption.

What's the point of explaining me something I already know? This ability will not help him win. For the same reason this ability does not count, when comparing characters in versus forum as it does not add any value to combat. If you want to talk about voices, go to Emperors primer thread.

Which is the same as relying on power alone. And he didn't use guards against Revan and Malak, he relied on his power alone. Revan's attack was unexpected.

And I thank you for that. The intelligence topic is totally pointless in this thread. The only relevant thing is combat. That's why I talk about intelligence displayed during combat.

Lets see. Thul handled inferior opponents by mind domination. Vitiate handled inferior opponents by mind domination. Thul tried to overpower Luke with the Force. Failed. Vitiate tried to overpower JK with the Force. Failed. Unlike Vitiate, Thul used lightsaber as the last option, therefore he showed more intelligence and versatility during combat, than Vitiate. Thul might have been just a tool of Lomi Plo but there is not much difference in the ways both of them tried to handle others in combat.

Same with Vitiate, his power got him, where he is. I am not arguing that Luke is the most intelligent. But he showed far more intelligence during combat, than Vitiate as his powers were nowhere near his. His intelligence in combat is part of his Gary Stue abilities. That's why, when he can't rely on powers alone, he still wins.
And there is nothing wrong with help of others, especially, when odds are heavily against them. Meetra got help from Visas and mandalorian. Revan got help from Meetra and Scourge, Satele got help from a soldier, Kota got help from Marek, JK got help from Scourge and personal droid. It doesn't mitigate intelligence in any way, on the opposite it is sign of intelligence that characters combine their efforts, instead of believing they can handle everything on their own.
Also, you can't prove that mentioned Jedi are more intelligent, than Luke, your dislike for him is blatantly clear. Neither can I prove that Luke is more intelligent, than them. However, unlike them Luke has over 70 books, with countless examples of his intelligence and good decision making, which confirms that he is one of the most intelligent Jedi known.

Ones again. Not relevant to combat. It does not improve Vitiate's chances of winning Satele or Marek.

Yes, in their second fight he couldn't take her out and he tried as hard as he could. And having only one hand (hint: second hand was cut off) he actually lasted against her much longer than was expected, thanks to fear for his daughter. So not using poison dart, when his only hand was busy with lightsaber equates to he decided not to kill her? Are you serious? Just cut it off, not only you brought up irrelevant subject, your assumption have no basis at all.

Assumption. Ok, I will take your assumption for granted, if you take mine for granted as well. Luke's performance against Abeloth gave me an idea, therefore he can handle Vitiate with Force alone. thumb up

Arhael

Vitiate can attempt to mind dominate such an opponent again. No big deal.

In addition, here is revelation from Drew Karpyshyn himself:

"I think it's pretty clear that the Sith Emperor did break their wills during the scene where the player and the others confront him."
And Marek can put him on his ass with another Force blast, no big deal. Again we have assumption vs assumption smile

Think = don't know = assumption. Also, it means that his words are not canon, sorry, but he is no Lucas. Moreover, the will can be broken with Dun Moch and indeed he did use Dun Moch and that could be the reason why they fell prey to FLS.

I concede that your, yet, another assumption has got some basis, however, it proves nothing. Don't remember Sidious allowing Luke to overpower him at any point. In DE he did not hold back against Luke, why would he against Marek?

You know why, "risk is too high". So saying that she is defenseless is still only your assumption.

So that final Force struggle was unfair? So in order to stand at least some chance against Vitiate, Marek needs to overpower Sidious? Doesn't strike as unbiased assessment. This Force struggle demonstrated that Marek was nearly as powerful as the most powerful Sith in the mythos. That should be enough to put him on level with Vitiate.

- I concluded it above.
- Doesn't prove she stands no chance against him.
- Recomend you to read book Deceived. Very nice book and most likely you will agree with me after that.
- I don't underestimate him and there is no prove he is above either of them.

Sorry. You refuse to accept things that do not favor your opinion. You are a biased individual.

I know that, which is why he didn't fight them simultaneously.

Word quickly doesn't specify period of time. It could be days instead of months, it could be months instead of years.

The reason I pointed it out is to let you know that your assumptions about her story are not less baseless, than mine. Either we both use it, or we discard this unreliable source entirely.

In other words you called me color blinded for no reason.

I know. That's why I hate Drew because everything made sense for Meetra to be above Revan in every way. However, fan's love for Revan and tendency to represent women weaker prevailed. sad

It's other way around. More worthy opponents are more likely to die, than be subdued as inferiors.

You don't like my assumptions, yet, you are begging for one. I guess he enjoyed making her suffering because her own brother fought her. Also, she wasn't Force blind, she demonstrated use of the Force before, so her mentality wasn't weak. Also, after holocrons prophecy she was indeed very confident, which is the key to resist mind domination. Moreover, we have even example of non-Force sensitive resisting mind domination, she died though.

Everyone apart from Unu'Thul, Lord Nyax and Palpatine. Lets move on now. wink

Prove your assumption. thumb up

My assumption is that he was just delaying time to gather power but I can't prove it either. Also, case with Luke is incomparable, at no point he allowed Luke to overpower him and end up on the floor. But as I already said final struggle proved that he was nearly as powerful as Sidious.

Intelligence outside combat is irrelevant to Versus thread as it doesn't help to win fight. Vitiate does not have combat intelligence in actual fight and that's what matters, when you determine his possibilities during fight with any character.

Vader is not the only example, there are many others.

Stealth Moose

tl;dr.

Bandon wins.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
Name at least single Sith/Jedi that could mind dominate Vitiate. Name at least one Sith with lightning as strong as his, even Palpatine was proven to have weaker lightning in another thread. Name at least one Jedi/Sith that could handle him with Force alone. Name at least one Sith, who could handle four strong Jedi as easily as him. Name at least one Sith that leaved over millennium. Typical assumption is that no one can handle him alone. Even you refuse to agree that Marek and Satele had at least some tiny chance of defeating him 1x1.
How many times Luke lost to someone? A lot. But how many time Vitiate lost to someone? Only 1. How many times Vitiate had to at least break some sweat to defeat someone? Only two times: Revan, JK. And how many times Luke struggled and nearly died? A lot.
Clearly N1 Gary Stue is Vitiate.
I acknowledge that the duo of Marek and Satale have a chance in defeating him, if they manage to prevent him from mind dominating them - which is a big IF.

And Vitiate is vastly underrated in duels. In almost every thread, I am forced to argue for him. This alone disproves your baseless assumption that Vitiate is N1 Gary Stue of Star Wars. Luke is and will remain N1 Gary Stu for a long time.

Originally posted by Arhael
I merely attempted to prove that both Satele and Marek had a chance to defeat Vitiate alone. While you had to bring up Luke irrelevant to the thread and attempted to portray him as a dumb shit by stating that he didn't need intelligence and power alone was ensuring his win, while it is much more true for Vitiate.
I brought Luke in to the picture to counter your assertion that the greatest command of the Force is not the all deciding factor, otherwise, Jedi would never defeat Sith.

Power matters in fair terms if employed properly, which is what these hypothetical contests are mostly about. Yes! When you involve circumstances then things can be different.

Vitiate has strong advantage in this fight in fair terms because he knows how to use his powers effectively and can mind dominate both Marek and Satele. If the duo acts early on and manage to prevent Vitiate from mind dominating them, then the duo have a chance to win. If not, then this contest is over. This is the crux of my argument.

You have gone to extreme lengths to argue against Vitiate's chances in mind dominating the duo. I mean, are you really this stupid? It is strongly evident from Vitiate's story that his mental powers are elite and even Satele Shan was reluctant to face him in combat due to this factor. Not just this but Vitiate have crushed the will of any adversary he wanted to, even if once.

Also see the example of Lord Nyax. It is not just about raw power. Natural talent and command over it is very important factor as well.

Originally posted by Arhael
I know what voices are about. I, also, know that voices and intelligence demonstrated outside of combat has no weight in a Versus thread, where the only thing that matters is combat.
My intention is to fix your perception regarding Vitiate's intelligence. He is very clever.

Originally posted by Arhael
He fought him more, than ones, when odds were against him. And at one point he Force blasted him into a wall, so he broke his leg. His intelligence was shown during those fights.
Again, details are missing. But still, I am not interested in this any more. We have focused too much on Luke already.

Originally posted by Arhael
Simple. First, stop bringing up irrelevant topics to the thread like intelligence outside combat, Luke and Abeloth.
My examples have never been irrelevant. It is just you who went to extreme lengths to negate my points/perspectives for point-scoring.

Originally posted by Arhael
Second, concede that each Marek and Satele had at least some chance against Vitiate alone. I never said that they pawn him, I agree that odds are on his side. Yet, you will never convince me that his victory is guarantied.
Their is no need to concede. I have made my assessment very clear.

Originally posted by Arhael
So is questionable opinion about Vitiate being weakened. Also, we don't see the fight, its game mechanics
Vitiate's vulnerability is not questionable because both Tol Braga and Satele Shan confirmed this.

And you are saying that the player does not gets the option to confront Vitiate second time with light side choices, correct?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Arhael
this is sign of his superior power and only. Lord Nyax had half brain missing because of that he couldn't even talk and operated on animal instincts. Yet, his mind domination is arguably the strongest in mythos. Yuuzhan Vong couldn't stop him. Luke, Mara and Tahiri couldn't outmatch him in combat. Do we call him intelligent for that as well?
When Vitiate learned about his natural affinity with mental influence, he focused on refining his mental powers to such a degree that he could use them like a weapon in combat situations. He could think long term. This decision helped him incredibly in later stages of his life. He did not take things for granted. He was very calculative.

Originally posted by Arhael
I agree that Vitiate was very intelligent considering his over 1000 years life span. But still you can't say that he did much better decisions in comparison, it is too vague subject and his superior power allowed him to achieve much more, than others.
See above.

Originally posted by Arhael
You only clarified it for me. He did not consider fighting him, either he was worthy for serving, or he simply would kill him. He would kill him, only, if Vitiate was weak, which is not true.
He may have considered fighting Vitiate depending upon how his adversary would appeal to him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Conceded
Thanks.

Originally posted by Arhael
In case if he meets an opponent that can resist his Force powers, I assumed you would come to the same conclusion. Indeed he is a good decision maker after living over 1000 years. But he got too smug thinking that all his life his power alone would be enough to handle anyone in combat.
Look! You need to understand what intelligence is all about. It is about good decision-making. Your emphasis should be on decision-making and not just on the means to accomplish a decision. This is the correct manner to judge the intelligence of a person.

Everybody has talent and is intelligent to some degree. However, some are more intelligent then others and can make better decisions.

Vitiate is a brilliant tactician and also a formidable fighter. In contrast, Luke is a formidable fighter but not a brilliant tactician. Both are intelligent in their own right but Vitiate more so due to being a brilliant tactician. Get it?

Originally posted by Arhael
Are you stupid or a retard? I asked you to stop it.
Sorry.

Originally posted by Arhael
Conceded. Which enforces the fact even more that in combat he relied on power alone. There is no intelligence whatsoever in overpowering someone with shear force.
See my explanation above. Power is a method to accomplish a decision.

I would re-analyse second Revan-Vitiate encounter again for you. It should be noted that both were brilliant tacticians and formidable combatants. However, one factor made a significant impact in the outcome.

Revan planned beforehand on how to deal with Vitiate. His plan involved both Scourge and Meetra and was a decent one.

Revan's infiltration came as a surprise to Vitiate. The latter did realized that somebody had infiltrated his stronghold and was heading towards his throne room. This is why he empowered his Imperial Guard to deal with the threat during the fight but he did not suspected involvement of Revan, which is understandable. When Revan confronted Vitiate; Vitiate decided not to let Revan get close to him due to his lightsaber skills by any means necessary and he employed his powers to upheld his decision (good decision right here). Yes! Vitiate did not noticed another Jedi advancing towards him and was caught off-guard by her attack when he made his final move to kill Revan. But then Vitiate had done something already that would change the outcome of this contest in his favour; he had confused Scourge with his enormous power. When 3 versus 1 situation came, that confusion worked in Vitiate's favor and so did the outcome.

What conclusion can one draw from this encounter? It indicates that power and smart decision-making, if coupled together, can do wonders indirectly or directly.

Revan came up with a plan to deal with Vitiate; Vitiate put his plan in to jeopardy with his powers, influence, and good decision-making during the fight.

Vitiate would have been stupid if he would have allowed Revan to get close to him during the fight because that would have granted his adversary a chance to strike him down.

It was not like Vitiate was using his powers mindlessely. He was being calculative and he made a good decision to keep Revan away from him. Get the memo now?

Originally posted by Arhael
Stop directing me nowhere.
I posted the comment of Drew in one of my replies. Have you overlooked it?

Originally posted by Arhael
He electrocutes them, until they are down. Your assumption has no weight. He had to fully concentrate to mind dominate one individual like Revan. Mind dominating simultaneously 4 Jedi in combat would be even bigger feat. But mind dominating, while using FLS, which is another ability requiring full concentration and gathering power, is highly unlikely and baseless assumption.
This is from Drew:

"I think it's pretty clear that the Sith Emperor did break their wills during the scene where the player and the others confront him."

In addition, I have given you another hint from a video.

Why you keep acting stubborn?

It is better to concede your confusion in this part and not rely on your assumption repeatedly.

Originally posted by Arhael
What's the point of explaining me something I already know? This ability will not help him win. For the same reason this ability does not count, when comparing characters in versus forum as it does not add any value to combat. If you want to talk about voices, go to Emperors primer thread.
This is relevant to Vitiate's decision-making in the lore and his intelligence in general. Also, thread owner can set terms for any hypothetical conflict. The purpose of this example is to disprove your absurd claim that Vitiate is not intelligent combatant.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which is the same as relying on power alone. And he didn't use guards against Revan and Malak, he relied on his power alone. Revan's attack was unexpected.
He used one of his officers to lure the duo to him. And he prepared himself for the encounter.

Originally posted by Arhael
And I thank you for that. The intelligence topic is totally pointless in this thread. The only relevant thing is combat. That's why I talk about intelligence displayed during combat.
Intelligence is about decision-making whether outside combat or in combat. It is relevant thing.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lets see. Thul handled inferior opponents by mind domination. Vitiate handled inferior opponents by mind domination. Thul tried to overpower Luke with the Force. Failed. Vitiate tried to overpower JK with the Force. Failed. Unlike Vitiate, Thul used lightsaber as the last option, therefore he showed more intelligence and versatility during combat, than Vitiate. Thul might have been just a tool of Lomi Plo but there is not much difference in the ways both of them tried to handle others in combat.
Consider the information about Lord Nyax provided by me as a reference in this case. And Vitiate did break JK once.

And read this:-

Luke killed the last of Raynar's bodyguards by Forceslamming them into the wall so hard their thoraxes burst, then the two Jedi were on one another, their lightsabers flashing toward each other's heads with all the speed and might they could summon.

That was the trouble with powerful men-especially younger ones. Awed by their own strength, they so often believed strength was the answer to every problem. Luke was older and wiser. While Raynar swung, he pivoted.

Source: The Swarm War

Raynar was not being calculative. He foolishly tangled with Luke with his lightsaber skills.

Vitiate is nothing like Raynar. He understood that martial aspects of combat have its flaws. And he developed his powers to compensate for it. He did not rushed in to combat or fight without thinking clearly. He was patient and calculative. Vitiate does not uses his powers mindlessely. Whether they work or not is different story.

Originally posted by Arhael
Same with Vitiate, his power got him, where he is. I am not arguing that Luke is the most intelligent. But he showed far more intelligence during combat, than Vitiate as his powers were nowhere near his. His intelligence in combat is part of his Gary Stue abilities. That's why, when he can't rely on powers alone, he still wins.
You have got some things wrong here.

Vitiate is a brilliant tactician while Luke is not. Yes! Luke learned a lot from his mistakes and improved his shortcomings with passage of time. He grew wiser as he aged which is a norm for many individuals.

Their is nothing wrong with using powers. It is a method to get the job done. However, good decision-making is equally important factor.

What I dislike about Luke is that even when he is badly injured or almost crippled, he possesses the strength to get the job done. What nonsense is this? Things like weakening, exhaustion, and fatal injuries do not stop Luke. This is why he is Gary Stu of Star Wars.

---------------

More responses will come later on.

Arhael

As attempted to shorten lengthy and useless argument I will stop discussing irrelevant stuff and go back.

As long as you give at least some chance to either of them, I am fine with it. Our opinions do not need to be the same.

Our lengthy argument started on first place because you didn't give them any chance at all:

Vitiate:
As for intelligence, yes, Vitiate is brilliant tactician, great planner and one of the most intelligent person in mythos. However, that's not what we weighting in a Versus Thread. Here we assume that two characters will be put into one place and start fight with each other without any preparations. Therefore, when we evaluate characters, we focus on what he can do during combat and only.

From all known feats of Vitiate we know that his combat went as far as overpower opponents with mind domination, TK and Force lightning. All his powers are aimed at his enemy, he never threw a brick at his opponent. He never displayed any ability to outwit or outskill his opponent because he was more powerful, than all his adversaries. Which makes it clear, that if his opponent can resist his powers like JK, he has no other options left to defeat his opponent.

Satele
As I pointed out before there is no prove that she can be mind dominated, I am, yet, to see Vitiate mind dominate someone during combat as powerful as Satele.
Jedi Strike team example doesn't help as he is seeing to use FLS from beginning to the end. And we know that FLS is the ability that requires full concentration and gathering power. We also know that FLS against strike team looks more powerful, than FS against JK, so we can't assume him crushing their will simultaneously. Also, we see how Tol Braga as experienced Jedi is able to block that FLS for a while but fails, which shows how potent that lightning was.

As for Satele's absorb levels. She is shown absorbing lightsaber, which is the deadliest power known, lightning never incinerated someone as fast. Yet, we can't safely assume that she will be able to absorb his lightning. Because we have Corran Horn who fully inherited absorbing talent from his descendant Keiran Halkion (another character that showed lightsaber absorbing). He was unable to fully absorbing Abeloth's lightning, although, her lightning is likely above any of Sith known.

Overall, she has chance of resisting Vitiate's powers and striking him down but the odds are obviously on his side.

Marek:
http://s017.radikal.ru/i441/1207/ef/6272a85716fb.jpg
http://s018.radikal.ru/i501/1207/af/49e88125e6af.jpg

Marek's struggle with the most powerful Sith and his displayed nearly limitless capabilities show that he was nearly as powerful as him. In my opinion it is enough to put him on level with Vitiate. In any case it shows that he's got a chance to win Vitiate.

In this case I couldn't keep quiet.
This is naked and wrong assumption. Luke wasn't dispirited. And he wasn't tired either. Luke didn't look weak, it is Lord Nyax, who showed power over the top, book made it clear that he was much more powerful, than Luke.