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Two extremely durable and powerful characters. While Loki was in New York setting up the Avengers Doctor Doom gets a reading of an unknown power he goes to investigate the power where he runs into Loki they can tell they don't like each other and the fight starts.

Doom.

Loki

Loki.

What can Loki do to Doom? Stab him with a dagger? Shot him with some energy? Create some illusions?

Doom rough housed Thing and has so much durability that it took a contained SuperNova to put him down. And he still survived. So he most definitely has a powerful HF.

His electric blasts are intense and won't simply burn through Loki obviously like the guy in the carpark he killed in FF. But it will be sufficient to weed out the illusions and blast Loki down once he goes melee. After that Doom just has to pour on the juice.

Loki can't hurt Doom. Doom can hurt Loki. When Doom grabbed a random pole and charged it with energy he smashed Thing, so add that as another offensive feat.

the Glowstick of Destiny wasn't as powerful as the staff he had in Thor.

Doom.

Originally posted by the ninjak
What can Loki do to Doom? Stab him with a dagger? Shot him with some energy? Create some illusions?

Doom rough housed Thing and has so much durability that it took a contained SuperNova to put him down. And he still survived. So he most definitely has a powerful HF.

His electric blasts are intense and won't simply burn through Loki obviously like the guy in the carpark he killed in FF. But it will be sufficient to weed out the illusions and blast Loki down once he goes melee. After that Doom just has to pour on the juice.

Loki can't hurt Doom. Doom can hurt Loki. When Doom grabbed a random pole and charged it with energy he smashed Thing, so add that as another offensive feat.

Doom. Loki's dagger was able to harm Thor which is pretty impressive.

And if Loki has the Scepter I think that thing could definitely hurt Doom.

Originally posted by Newjak
Loki's dagger was able to harm Thor which is pretty impressive.

And if Loki has the Scepter I think that thing could definitely hurt Doom.

True but Doom is practically living organic metal encased in a powerful shell.
And he has an amazing HF. A dagger in the back shouldn't do crap. The guy is a brick. What was impressive was Loki charging said daggers in the movie Thor. Apparently the same enchanted kind of dagger but those glowed.....oh well.

The sceptre has no destruction feats. Exept hitting vulnerable aircraft and killing a few guys and a woman.
The slave maker ability won't work either, for the same reasons it didn't work on Stark.

I still see Doom winning 5/5 fights average considering powersets.

Originally posted by the ninjak
True but Doom is practically living organic metal encased in a powerful shell.
And he has an amazing HF. A dagger in the back shouldn't do crap. The guy is a brick. What was impressive was Loki charging said daggers in the movie Thor. Apparently the same enchanted kind of dagger but those glowed.....oh well.

The sceptre has no destruction feats. Exept hitting vulnerable aircraft and killing a few guys and a woman.
The slave maker ability won't work either, for the same reasons it didn't work on Stark.

I still see Doom winning 5/5 fights average considering powersets. Doom didn't have a healing factor. If you see him in the next movie you clearly see him scarred when fighting the Surfer.

Originally posted by Newjak
Doom didn't have a healing factor. If you see him in the next movie you clearly see him scarred when fighting the Surfer.

Yet he healed from being burnt to a husk via contained SuperNova in the first FF.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Yet he healed from being burnt to a husk via contained SuperNova in the first FF. He wasn't burnt to a husk. They just heated him up to be really hot/semi-melty and then cooled him down really fast to make him unable to move.

Originally posted by Newjak
He wasn't burnt to a husk. They just heated him up to be really hot/semi-melty and then cooled him down really fast to make him unable to move.

And you think that wouldn't seriously harmed any character. Being stuck in a bubbled SuperNova? They thought he was dead, sent him back to Latveria as a statue but he returned perfectly normal.

Originally posted by the ninjak
And you think that wouldn't seriously harmed any character. Being stuck in a bubbled SuperNova? They thought he was dead, but he returned perfectly normal. He was hurt, and he also had severe scaring afterwards as shown with his encounter with the Surfer where we see his face is still burned up.

I'm not saying surviving the attack isn't a really good feat for him, but he doesn't have a healing factor at least not one shown on screen.

Originally posted by Newjak
He was hurt, and he also had severe scaring afterwards as shown with his encounter with the Surfer where we see his face is still burned up.

I'm not saying surviving the attack isn't a really good feat for him, but he doesn't have a healing factor at least not one shown on screen.

Haven't seen FF2 in a long time.
If he can completely heal from a SuperNova yet remains scarred by Cosmic Energy. Then that says more about Cosmic Energy. When Doom had the power he turned a man into cubes. Maybe they introduced Surfer's power as having the ability to permanently scar Doom where a SuperNova couldn't.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Haven't seen FF2 in a long time.
If he can completely heal from a SuperNova yet remains scarred by Cosmic Energy. Then that says more about Cosmic Energy. When Doom had the power he turned a man into cubes. Maybe they introduced Surfer's power as having the ability to permanently scar Doom where a SuperNova couldn't. The sueprnova wasn't the thing that defeated him tho. They just heated him up to make his outer metal shell enough to cause it melt some and then cooled him really fast which locked all his joints in place.

And it wasn't the Surfer who gave him the scars in FF2. Those scares were from the ending fight in FF1. Actually it was Surfer's blast that ends up healing Doom so he looks normal again.

I think that they are pretty evenly matched actually, Loki toke blasts from Iron Man without injury and the Human Torch survived Doom's lightning (through the chest) so I think Loki can take the blasts (atleast for a bit) without getting KO'ed. Doom himself also showed very nice durability. But if I have to go with one it'll probably be Loki, his magic tricks will really take Doom off guard and I actually see the staff having some effect.

Originally posted by Newjak
The sueprnova wasn't the thing that defeated him tho. They just heated him up to make his outer metal shell enough to cause it melt some and then cooled him really fast which locked all his joints in place.

And it wasn't the Surfer who gave him the scars in FF2. Those scares were from the ending fight in FF1. Actually it was Surfer's blast that ends up healing Doom so he looks normal again.
Damn! They really ran wild in these films didn't they. Only seen FF2 once and thanks for the facts.

If the Surfer's blast was what healed Doom then Doom is pretty much screwed in this fight if it wasn't for his survival of the SuperNova. He still had eyes under that visor. Surviving such contained heat is not something that someone could survive just because he was wearing armor.

Plus he can blast electricity around himself making illusions hard to do. I still think this fight isn't heavily in favor of Loki.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Plus he can blast electricity around himself making illusions hard to do. I still think this fight isn't heavily in favor of Loki.

I actually think that electricity was something he drew into himself in order to gain more energy for the fight, you can (if you watch the fight) see that the lightning are being drawn towards him, not shooting away from him. But it might be a combination, however he doesn't appear to have any control over it's general direction and much of the lightning was simply shot into the air or drawn to him from up high.

Edit: However they are fighting in New York so he won't run out of power as I originally thought.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I actually think that electricity was something he drew into himself in order to gain more energy for the fight, you can (if you watch the fight) see that the lightning are being drawn towards him, not shooting away from him. But it might be a combination, however he doesn't appear to have any control over it's general direction and much of the lightning was simply shot into the air or drawn to him from up high.

Edit: However they are fighting in New York so he won't run out of power as I originally thought.

I wonder if Doom was in the presence of the Tesseract he could run wild? This OP has Doom in the presence of it? It's no exactly hard to find it's on top of Stark Tower.

Originally posted by the ninjak
I wonder if Doom was in the presence of the Tesseract he could run wild? This OP has Doom in the presence of it? It's no exactly hard to find it's on top of Stark Tower.

No, but I doubt that Doom can get through the shield of pure energy that the Cosmic Cube (as I prefer to call it) generated to protect itself.

Originally posted by Utrigita
No, but I doubt that Doom can get through the shield of pure energy that the Cosmic Cube (as I prefer to call it) generated to protect itself.

That shield is just more energy. Doom just has to draw off of it, and it's unlimited energy.

Doom.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Human Torch survived Doom's lightning (through the chest)

Major PIS imo. No reason why Torch would receive no visible damage while some other poor dude got a large hole through him, and also Doom's blast's shown to melt metal upon contact. Could possibly argue it was Torch's suit which is adapted to temperatures of the sun, but then that wouldn't reduce Doom's feats at all.

Originally posted by Placidity
Doom.



Major PIS imo. No reason why Torch would receive no visible damage while some other poor dude got a large hole through him, and also Doom's blast's shown to melt metal upon contact. Could possibly argue it was Torch's suit which is adapted to temperatures of the sun, but then that wouldn't reduce Doom's feats at all.

Reed also toke numerous shots without it penetrating or harming him. My point thus is that while Doom's lightning is easily capable of killing a human have less then awesome feats against characters of superhuman nature. The thing was knocked back but not damaged, Reed was shot (in the fight on the street) multiple times but not damaged, likewise the Human Torch was shot but not damaged. All of those times I simply refuse to simply write of as PIS, I don't know if they all have some kind of increased durability because of their exposure to cosmic radiation, but if they can survive the lightning, then so imo can Loki.

^ First time Reed got caught in a glancing blast he was struggling to stand, the following blast he got so heated he lost of control his body, hence he fell/stretched from the top of the building to the ground. Yet later Doom's blast have little effect on him? That's PIS.

What you described just sounded like PIS to me. Barring Thing, none of them have enough durability to take the kind of damage shown in all other instances.

I'm calling out Golem370 to know if Doom is near the cosmic cube.

No the cube was still under shields protection in this thread because the idea in this thread is Loki was still trying to set up the avengers which I would say it was before he got hold of the cube.

Originally posted by Placidity
^ First time Reed got caught in a glancing blast he was struggling to stand, the following blast he got so heated he lost of control his body, hence he fell/stretched from the top of the building to the ground. Yet later Doom's blast have little effect on him? That's PIS.

What you described just sounded like PIS to me. Barring Thing, none of them have enough durability to take the kind of damage shown in all other instances.

And afterwards he toke several of them without effect so what do we go by? One blast that incapacitated him or multiple that had no effect, both things can be determined because of the plot. In the one scenario it was required that Reed was knocked out in the other it was required that Reed wasn't, either way the lightning are inconsistent, and while have shown capable of killing a human outright haven't shown lasting results against superhuman opponents.

So the entire fight should just be neglected in your opinion because Doom killed a guy in a parking garage?

Originally posted by Utrigita
And afterwards he toke several of them without effect so what do we go by? One blast that incapacitated him or multiple that had no effect, both things can be determined because of the plot. In the one scenario it was required that Reed was knocked out in the other it was required that Reed wasn't, either way the lightning are inconsistent, and while have shown capable of killing a human outright haven't shown lasting results against superhuman opponents.

So the entire fight should just be neglected in your opinion because Doom killed a guy in a parking garage?

No, I'm surprised you are so blind to your own bias and the fact you are trying to argue some sort of "reverse-PIS" logic. This case is a classic and transparent example of PIS. And it's not my "opinion", I base my argument on logic.

Here is the PIS rule from Comics Vs forum:



Let's analyse the situation.

Dr Doom shows his powers are devastating, on objects, a human, and to a lesser effect Reed, but still effectively disabled him.

Why was Reed affected less - (no hole in the chest)? It is safe to assume because of his elasticity. That's the reason, not simply because he has a "superhuman" title. You must always ask "why".

So we already have solidly established feats for Doom's blasts and his capabilities, and its effects on Reed.

Why then, in their final battle, does Reed develop such increased resistance to Doom's blast? or why did Doom's blast diminish so drastically? Why?




It's the same reason why we don't argue Spider-man is actually weak because he couldn't knock out Dr. Ock, and go back and invalidate all his previous feats or use it as a basis to claim it is inconsistent therefore inconclusive.

Originally posted by golem370
No the cube was still under shields protection in this thread because the idea in this thread is Loki was still trying to set up the avengers which I would say it was before he got hold of the cube.

Oh OK I just assumed because the OP stated Loki was in New York and Doom located the powersource, which I assumed was the cube.

The Staff and or Loki own power source

Loki via superior cunning and illusion skills. He takes it.

Loki doesn't stand a chance in a closed environment fight. Doom can just absorb the electricity of the surrounding power grid and spot the illusion.
Didn't he spot invisible woman whilst she was invisible????

And Loki's little dagger may get through his armor but the guy survived a SuperNova! That armor didn't have fields nor inertial dampners, it was just armor. His eyes were exposed yet survived being microwaved at temps approaching the heat of the Sun like a trooper.

The Staff? was junk compared to his original staff from Thor. And the mind control technique won't work on Doom due to the armor.

Doom pours on the electricity the sec he sees Loki, and keeps pouring it on. Ironman beat Loki TWICE to a gunslinging contest. Doom is faster. Loki will probably die after a minute of straight burning. Doom will take his staff and use it to guide him to the cosmic cube where he once again obtains ultimate power.


Doom.

Loki showed some very good durability including being slammed into the ground by Thor at flight speed, Loki took that power blast by that experimental weapon, He took that pounding from Hulk and eventually got back up. He showed good strength feats like throwing that one on the table with one arm & He was to strong for Captain America

Originally posted by golem370
Loki showed some very good durability including being slammed into the ground by Thor at flight speed, Loki took that power blast by that experimental weapon, He took that pounding from Hulk and eventually got back up. He showed good strength feats like throwing that one on the table with one arm & He was to strong for Captain America

Loki was also strong enough to block blows from Thor, Thor who was strong enough to hurt Hulk, Thor who easily blocked IM's punch (who was at 400%). So using that analogy, we can actually assume that Loki is near Thor's strength range (though obviously still weaker). We can however assume that he's stronger than IM's normal strength.

Loki also took a full repulsor blast from IM and wasn't injured. Then you also have fighting ability. Loki looks like a very capable fighter, and he's a lot older than Doom.

Then we have his magic and illusions, and though I don't think Doom will easily fall for it, it's still an advantage that LOki can use.

I believe Doom to be more durable and stronger, but not by much. And Doom doesn't have the offense that Loki has.

So yeah, good match, but in the end I think Loki wins.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Ironman beat Loki TWICE to a gunslinging contest. Doom is faster. Loki will probably die after a minute of straight burning. Doom will take his staff and use it to guide him to the cosmic cube where he once again obtains ultimate power.


Doom.

First time IM shot at Loki, Loki was battling Cap and wasn't aware of IM. He only beat Loki at "gunslinging" during their second encounter. Doesn't mean that he can beat him all the time.

Besides, so what. Loki survived IM's attacks easily. Loki has also survived Thor's lightning. What makes you think that Doom's lightning is stronger than IM's repulsors or Thor's lightning?

Loki. Definitely.

Change my mind Loki prob takes this.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Change my mind Loki prob takes this. You know Loki is on another level than Doom.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You know Loki is on another level than Doom.

Loki can manipulate minds.
And can unleash magical daggers that can penetrate even Thor's armor.
I originally thought Doom could take this due to his ability to survive an enclosed Super Nova. Yet it was brought to my attention that his survival was largely due to the Surfer.
In Thor, Loki was able to create myriad constructs of himself whilst attacking his target.
And in the same movie he shot forth infused daggers that penetrated and killed Frost Giants with ease.
He survived deep space and has advanced mystical telepathic abilities.
He wins this now in a landslide.

I'm surprised he didn't use the same thrown daggers against the Hulk. Or attempted to cloud his thoughts.
My only guess is that he was rattled by the Hulk's first assault that he resorted to simple communication with the beast. And he failed at that on epic levels, calling him the equivalent of a peasant existing amongst a god.....insane!
A poor showing for Loki unless his invisibility was useless against such a primitive beast. Which would make sense.
After all Loki focused on Banner primarily upon his arrival on the Helicarrier.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Loki can manipulate minds.
And can unleash magical daggers that can penetrate even Thor's armor.
I originally thought Doom could take this due to his ability to survive an enclosed Super Nova. Yet it was brought to my attention that his survival was largely due to the Surfer.
In Thor, Loki was able to create myriad constructs of himself whilst attacking his target.
And in the same movie he shot forth infused daggers that penetrated and killed Frost Giants with ease.
He survived deep space and has advanced mystical telepathic abilities.
He wins this now in a landslide.

I'm surprised he didn't use the same thrown daggers against the Hulk. Or attempted to cloud his thoughts.
My only guess is that he was rattled by the Hulk's first assault that he resorted to simple communication with the beast. And he failed at that on epic levels, calling him the equivalent of a peasant existing amongst a god.....insane!
A poor showing for Loki unless his invisibility was useless against such a primitive beast. Which would make sense.
After all Loki focused on Banner primarily upon his arrival on the Helicarrier. Loki's arrogance is what left him open to the Hulk's assault.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Loki's arrogance is what left him open to the Hulk's assault.

True, though he didn't expect Banner to hurry back into New York after his machinations.
He did everything he could to avoid Banner from bringing his monster into the war.
He ensnared Banner and the rest of the team in his manipulations, cept Black Widow!
And did his best to ensure the end game of his invasion plan would come to fruition.
The heroes in the end were actually Black Widow, Hawk Eye and Fury.
The only people who in the end saw through the cloud of fog Loki created and acted accordingly.
The other heroes just did what they could to contain the threat.
Thor being the weakest of the team.
He should have been the one who caught the bomb and flew it into the portal.

I can't get over how weak the present day movies make Thor. He's the one who should be shocking the team with his abilities not Ironman!

Originally posted by the ninjak
Loki can manipulate minds.
And can unleash magical daggers that can penetrate even Thor's armor.
I originally thought Doom could take this due to his ability to survive an enclosed Super Nova. Yet it was brought to my attention that his survival was largely due to the Surfer.
In Thor, Loki was able to create myriad constructs of himself whilst attacking his target.
And in the same movie he shot forth infused daggers that penetrated and killed Frost Giants with ease.
He survived deep space and has advanced mystical telepathic abilities.
He wins this now in a landslide.

I'm surprised he didn't use the same thrown daggers against the Hulk. Or attempted to cloud his thoughts.
My only guess is that he was rattled by the Hulk's first assault that he resorted to simple communication with the beast. And he failed at that on epic levels, calling him the equivalent of a peasant existing amongst a god.....insane!
A poor showing for Loki unless his invisibility was useless against such a primitive beast. Which would make sense.
After all Loki focused on Banner primarily upon his arrival on the Helicarrier.

I blame that scene on Hulk's popularity and fanbase. Basically, people just wanted to see Hulk smash and so they sacrificed Loki (and to an extent Thor) just so they could shine the spotlight on Hulk.

I mean, think about it. Loki is suppposed to be this uber cunning manipulator, who's a proven warrior with mystical abilities. With reflexes fast enough to catch an arrow. Who has shown good intel over his adversaries and their powers. Yet for some reason, he somehow chooses to just stand there and talk to the single Avenger who doesn't talk. I mean I know he was frustrated and all, but you don't just forget centuries of fighting experience and instinct like that.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I blame that scene on Hulk's popularity and fanbase. Basically, people just wanted to see Hulk smash and so they sacrificed Loki (and to an extent Thor) just so they could shine the spotlight on Hulk.

I mean, think about it. Loki is suppposed to be this uber cunning manipulator, who's a proven warrior with mystical abilities. With reflexes fast enough to catch an arrow. Who has shown good intel over his adversaries and their powers. Yet for some reason, he somehow chooses to just stand there and talk to the single Avenger who doesn't talk. I mean I know he was frustrated and all, but you don't just forget centuries of fighting experience and instinct like that.

Precisely Froth....

They sacrificed Loki for laughs.
Damn..! the guy was seen in his origin film fighting Frost Giants front on with mind manipulation and energized versions of the weapon he used against Thor in Avengers!
I laughed as everyone did. But it was mockery at best.
The same with Hulk punching Thor out after they downed a behemoth.
He has no respect for Asgardians.

Originally posted by golem370
Two extremely durable and powerful characters. While Loki was in New York setting up the Avengers Doctor Doom gets a reading of an unknown power he goes to investigate the power where he runs into Loki they can tell they don't like each other and the fight starts. Doom, cos he's less of a whiny ***** and I don't recall him ever being easily outwitted by a woman. Unless I'm forgetting something from those two shit films.

Originally posted by Robtard
Doom, cos he's less of a whiny ***** and I don't recall him ever being easily outwitted by a woman. Unless I'm forgetting something from those two shit films.

Guess Asgardian men just aren't prepared for the underhanded manipulations of earthly women. Loki should be grateful he doesn't have a credit card.

Originally posted by the ninjak
True, though he didn't expect Banner to hurry back into New York after his machinations.
He did everything he could to avoid Banner from bringing his monster into the war.
He ensnared Banner and the rest of the team in his manipulations, cept Black Widow!
And did his best to ensure the end game of his invasion plan would come to fruition.
The heroes in the end were actually Black Widow, Hawk Eye and Fury.
The only people who in the end saw through the cloud of fog Loki created and acted accordingly.
The other heroes just did what they could to contain the threat.
Thor being the weakest of the team.
He should have been the one who caught the bomb and flew it into the portal.

I can't get over how weak the present day movies make Thor. He's the one who should be shocking the team with his abilities not Ironman! Thor still had a massive aod feat in the film. Iron Man needed to be at 400 percent and he was still losing to Thor. Hulk is the strongest while Thor seems to be the most powerful imo. Like most villains they get punched and beat up sooner or later. Most of the time it doesn't make sense but it pleases the audience.

Originally posted by Robtard
Doom, cos he's less of a whiny ***** and I don't recall him ever being easily outwitted by a woman. Unless I'm forgetting something from those two shit films.

HA! Those films were a complete shame.

Yet Doom was limited by the fact that he isn't some genius sorcerer technowizard with unlimited resources. He's just some genius level douchbag who has obtained techno organic flesh and the ability to harness high levels of electricity through it.
He may have blasted a hole through a businessman and kinetically blasted the Thing away.
And also caught Sue in his grasp.

But Loki can cloud thoughts. And release daggers that can pierce Thor.
Has also the combat feats to fight Thor in combat.

Movie Doom sucks compared to his comic or animated comparison.

Originally posted by the ninjak
HA! Those films were a complete shame.

Yet Doom was limited by the fact that he isn't some genius sorcerer technowizard with unlimited resources. He's just some genius level douchbag who has obtained techno organic flesh and the ability to harness high levels of electricity through it.
He may have blasted a hole through a businessman and kinetically blasted the Thing away.
And also caught Sue in his grasp.

But Loki can cloud thoughts. And release daggers that can pierce Thor.
Has also the combat feats to fight Thor in combat.

Movie Doom sucks compared to his comic or animated comparison. Movie Thor always was far superior to Loki he just held back due to being raised with Loki. That's Loki's advantage if thor went all out and didn't know him he'd completely devastate him.