Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

This is my first post.

Darth Revan Vs Darth Malak Vs Darth Vader Vs Darth Sion Vs Darth Maul Vs Darth Traya Vs Darth Tyranus Vs Darth Nihilus Vs Darth Sidious Vs The Sith Emperor Vs Darth Krayt Vs Darth Bane

Rules: None

Location: Mustafar

All Combatants are at their peak. Its a fight to the death. Who's the last one standing?

Needs Krayt.

Hm, hard to say how such a complex brawl will go... the Sith Emperor is the strongest, but on the flip side, Sidious has three of his students here, Revan and Malak similarly, and Sion & Nihilus were partners and dunno if Traya'd work with them, but maybe her too.

Sidious represents the strongest power block, so I'd say he has pretty good odds.

Where's Bane?

First Post Updated.

Now that's a lineup

Sidious wins by manipulating everyone into fighting each other, then he finishes off the exhausted winner.

QED.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Sidious wins by manipulating everyone into fighting each other, then he finishes off the exhausted winner.

QED.

Yea, but they're Sith, they'll expect their foes to do that


Krayt could take a fall, let himself get stabbed and appear dead, let Sidious finish off the exhaust winner, then stand up and surprise attack the exhausted Sidious.

Sids.

Malak rape-stomps.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Malak rape-stomps.

Lol no. Maul is here he stomps.


Also I find your lack of Bandon disturbing OP.

Nihilus nomz all of them.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Sidious wins by manipulating everyone into fighting each other, then he finishes off the exhausted winner.

QED.

I like this one.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Nihilus nomz all of them.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I like this one.

"Ultimate Sith Fight" without Marka Ragnos? Anyway Sidious wins - he is the most powerful Sith Lord. Nihilus is just overrated. Exile puts Revan above him (if i'm not mistaken).

The Sith Emperor Pwns Everyone.

In Order Of Elimination

1. Maul
2. Malak
3. Tyranus
4. Vader
5. Krayt
6. Bane
7. Revan
8. Sion
9. Traya
10. Nihilus
11. Sidious

Nihilus can be killed by anyone who succeeds him, has knowledge of who he is, and can cloak themselves in the Force {i.e. Dooku or Sidious}. Traya can be killed by anyone who succeeds her, knows who she is, and can shield themselves from a Force drain {i.e. Vader and, possibly, Revan}. Vitiate can be killed by anyone who doesn't underestimate him or afford him prep-time, which would most likely be Sidious.

Afterwards, Sidious and {possibly} Krayt are the clear heavy hitters on the field. Vader and Tyranus, each hating Sidious, will exploit the opportunity to kill him. Bane will probably join in as a master opportunist and Maul dies defending Sidious, or Bane will pursue Krayt and that fight may end in a victory for Bane {particularly should Bane be wearing orbalisks}. Tyranus and Vader, should they survive, will probably turn on each other. Revan and Malak, two impossibly inept tacticians, will {attempt to} destroy everyone in sight.

Sion will probably be pimpsmacked by any one of the above, but since all of the intelligent people are dead, no one will be able to manipulate him into killing himself and he will emerge victorious.

Some good answers here. I do believe that Sidious and Sion and Krayt would be the final 3 in this brawl. As to who's the winner, its a toss up. Sion can only be killed by himself admitting defeat, Krayt holds the power of life and death, and sidious, is probably the strongest sith out there, if not second to the sith emperor. Anyone one of these 3 could be the last one standing.

Actually, you know what? Sion is only invulnerable in locations strong with the dark side. The victor here is most likely going to be Vader, Dooku, or Bane.

Their is no definite answer for this kind of contest. One possible outcome is that no one may survive in physical form at least.

Assuming that all characters are at their peak, following shall be noted:

1. Vitiate can survive-in spirit form-if his body gets destroyed. He will put considerable fight.
2. The above point is applicable to Sidious also.
3. Revan can use Fold Space ability to escape.
4. Sion is very hard to kill.
5. Nihilus can drain all, if he gets the opportunity.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
3. Revan can use Fold Space ability to escape. Whaa...


The f*ck is this shit?

Jedi can teleport now.

Didn't you get the memo?

Not sure why we are saying Revan can fold space... I have yet to see it confirmed anywhere.

Originally posted by ares834
Not sure why we are saying Revan can fold space... I have yet to see it confirmed anywhere.
Drew confirmed in an interview that Revan escaped from the Sith Strike Team. Yes! You heard this right. Revan is ALIVE. According to the rumors, Revan used Fold Space ability.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Whaa...


The f*ck is this shit?
Revanowesomeness.

Did you like it?

Ah, cool did not know that. Glad to hear it. Then yeah, fold space is the only thing that meks sense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jedi can teleport now.

Didn't you get the memo? *sigh*



zDWU2SR27g4

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

1. Vitiate can survive-in spirit form-if his body gets destroyed. He will put considerable fight.
2. The above point is applicable to Sidious also.


We might get a spirit fight go down in addition to the physical one




Hard, but not impossible. There's a couple people here who I think could pull it off.



Yea, but who'd give him the opportunity? Everyone would sense what he is and hit him with, like, a million lightsabers.

Nihilus has never been shown {to my knowledge, at least} to successfully drain a prepared adversary. The population of Katarr were oblivious to his arrival, Kreia had to split her attention between both him and Sion; and he immobilized the Exile and her companions before attacking. When Kreia utilizes the attack, it takes four seconds to kill the Council members, which should be sufficient time for an adequately skilled opponent to react.

All this aside, if Tobin is to be trusted, Nihilus's perception is too nebulous to perceive singular Force users. Should Dooku or Sidious be powerful enough in the Force to warrant his attention, they can conceal themselves in the Force to reduce their potency, shielding themselves from his vision and applying their superior skill against him. Likewise, it's highly improbable that Kreia or Nihilus would successfully wield the attack against Vader, who is capable of resisting the Dark Reaper's effects.

Their most powerful abilities negated, Nihilus and Kreia will be easy prey for their many enemies.

Let's also consider knowledge. Literally everyone knows Revan, and the bulk of people know the Sith Emperor.

Six different people could shout out "Darth Bane's armor is vulnerable to lightning!".

However, only Palp's apprentices and Krayt know Sidious, of those Tyrannus and Maul won't know Vader, and no-one knows jack about Krayt, he can pretty much make up whatever he wants, no-one knows about his Rule of One, his powers, or anything.

This gives later-timeline people a definite advantage.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

Their most powerful abilities negated

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Nihilus nomz all of them.

Palpatine explodes and all die. No pit, no win.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Nihilus nomz all of them.

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/10.jpg

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
excellent
And the billions of Newtons available at will are... party favors?

N. liquefies his opponents and chains their souls to their armor. (sorry; I've been thinking about Jade Empire today).

Because we all know how much you need to be able to sense someone to smash their face in with a Force Wave.

Because we know Sith are known to spam force waves against people they can't detect.

Well he shouldn't have eyes and therefore wouldn't be able to see them.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Because we know Sith are known to spam force waves against people they can't detect.

Because we know that Sith like to just stand there and do nothing in a fight.

Because if you don't anticipate that some of your enemies have rendered themselves undetectable and spam Force waves in all directions, you're doing nothing.

Because they start the fight undetectable and theres no way for him to sense them becoming undetectable.

Because the guy who supposedly is so beyond Force users he doesn't perceive them on an individual level will somehow be able to do that here.

Because the guy who turned around to talk to 3 people and then fight them, sensed a single Force user half-way across the galaxy, attacked his master, force choked his apprentice and could sense a single being on a wrecked planet, 'doesn't perceive Force users on an individual level'.

Of course not, because that would require Tobin to be unreliable, which isn't possible.

I win.

prove it

As a strong, independent black woman, I ain't got nothing to prove to the likes of you!

As a delicious hunk of sexiness, I say you do.

Nihilus sees only the Force, the object of his hunger.

Standing among a bunch of high level Force users is like being at a buffet for him. Assuming he'll do anything but nomz is ridiculous.

Yes, but humor him. He's trying so hard.

No one assumes he'll do anything but to nomz. But that's not going to work on Vader, Dooku, and Sidious.

Do I? I was merely responding to your flawed logic in regards to the worth of N's TK abilities. Also I don't see why he needs to be able to sense them to nom them. His all-consuming-black-smoke-of-death-giga-drain is never implied to have that failing.

And failed, naturally. excellent



Nor is it implied to work on prepared&trained!Force users instantly or otherwise. When he drained Kreia, she had to divide her attention between both Sion and Nihilus; when he drained the Exile, he had to stun her and the party.

So?

So who's to say it will work here, when there are no alliances for him to benefit from and enemies facing him who exhibit far greater power than Ms. Surik and company?

Well the fact that theres no know defense might indicate something.

Also LOL @ that handwaving of Kreia. Its almost like you forgot that she can levitate and fight with 3 lightsabers at once. But no, dividing her attention is clearly something that was a major handicap for her. Thank god that no-one's attention will be divided in this Battle Royale with about 10 Sith Lords in it all fighting at the same time.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
And failed, naturally. excellent



Nor is it implied to work on prepared&trained!Force users instantly or otherwise. When he drained Kreia, she had to divide her attention between both Sion and Nihilus; when he drained the Exile, he had to stun her and the party.

There is a precedent with Katarr though, you're conveniently forgetting. Also, Nihilus in the finale was already in a weakened state. Feats he's performed while not similarly weakened include his TK gravity well move and planet nom, both of which are cosmic-level Force powers well beyond Vader and Dooku, and RotS Sidious but not necessarily DE Sidious. To clarify, the OP states each is at their peak. This means peak Nihilus could very much potentially eat the entire gathering before any of them can muster a defense directly against him.

According to Kreia?
And the Exile was sure defended from it. vin



Because numbers & split attention has never, ever, ever been problematic for Force users. Or at least not for those who can levitate lightsabers.



Because the other 9 will be fighting each other and not Nihilus.

The Katarr residents knew Nihilus was coming and had prepared accordingly?



What bearing does that have on his ability to exert the drain?



While on Malachor V, a dark side nexus, which you're conveniently forgetting.



In order to to defeat and drain a prepared enemy, Nihilus has either attacked in conjunction with another Sith Lord against a singular foe or immobilized his enemies prior. There is no indication, to my knowledge, that he can do so in a duel against a prepared enemy without taking certain precautions.



Vader tanked the Dark Reaper's effects as Anakin; Dooku & Sidious can conceal themselves in the Force. The potential, of course is there, but unlikely.

Great argument my lovelies, we will continue this soon. Prepare your anal cavities for invasion. excellent

Not just Dooku and Sidious. Krayt's done it too, and hasn't Bane as well?

I wouldn't think it's a rare ability.


Though I don't think concealing will be the main thing so much as, he even tries to Nom everyone and everyone will be hitting him with force drains, lightsabers, force lightning, and so on and so forth right back.

Originally posted by Q99
Not just Dooku and Sidious. Krayt's done it too, and hasn't Bane as well?

I wouldn't think it's a rare ability.


Though I don't think concealing will be the main thing so much as, he even tries to Nom everyone and everyone will be hitting him with force drains, lightsabers, force lightning, and so on and so forth right back.


You have a point.

The three Jedi Masters on Dantooine were hitting Kreia back with Force drains, Force waves and lightsaber slashes, while she was Giga-draining them, and they nearly killed her as well.

Though, her Giga-drain is a much weaker version, so it's easy to see why they were stomping her so badly.


Edit - I didn't know the Dark Reaper and Nihilus are the same character..

I must have missed this while playing the Clone Wars game.

Though, it is a seriously fun game, despite being Arcade-style. And I thought it was a shame they didn't use Anakin's AotC visual appearance in games more - I thought he looked cooler as a Padawan than later on, for some reason.

Concealing Force presence in a midst of battle is rather stupid. While Force user is protected from mental attacks, Force drain and telekinesis, he is still vulnerable to Force lightning, can't anticipate attacks and use Force himself in general.

http://i.imgur.com/1tHQ1.gif

Sargon, you seem to be reaching.

N. is only one of many Sith Lords involved. There is not any particular reason why he would be singled out first.

And while your novel attempt to besmirch Tobin's testimony is admirable, it fails on grounds both contextual and intentional. First, Tobin was explaining why N. was allowing the party to plant bombs on his ship; it was an opportunity for the writers to further emphasize that N. was a primarily metaphysical threat, rather than a political or military one.

Better than reaching around, which is something of an occupational hazard for you, amirite?



Certainly there is, particularly since some of his opponents succeed him and are well versed in Sith history.





As you are (presumably) not George Lucas or Leland Chee, I'm entirely (respectfully) uninterested in your interpretation of the "intent" surrounding Nihilus. Now if you were willing to concede that the same treatment applies to Count Dooku's musings of a certain Sith Lord as being "beyond power" and "a black hole of the Force", I could be persuaded to accept your worldview. But you won't and so I can't.

I don't think being gay is his job Sargon.

Does he service other men for money?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
You have a point.

The three Jedi Masters on Dantooine were hitting Kreia back with Force drains, Force waves and lightsaber slashes, while she was Giga-draining them, and they nearly killed her as well.

Though, her Giga-drain is a much weaker version, so it's easy to see why they were stomping her so badly.

Kreia so utterly overpowered those Jedi Masters, it makes you wonder just how powerful Nihilus was to disable her with a wave of his hand. Again, this is Nihilus at his peak. This means he's well fed and not a victim of a Force wound.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kreia so utterly overpowered those Jedi Masters, it makes you wonder just how powerful Nihilus was to disable her with a wave of his hand. Again, this is Nihilus at his peak. This means he's well fed and not a victim of a Force wound.

I know, I couldn't help the sarcasm.

Honestly - I think it's unfair to have Nihilus in any Versus thread.

FotJ Luke might be able to kill him - although that fight would be the quickest fight of century, going either way.



Kreia's Giga-drain is far weaker than Nihilus's and she was able to kill-off three powerful Jedi Masters, all within a second.

Add to the fact they were stunned while being struck, and then dead.

Nihilus at his Peak sensed things in terms of planets and stars, the way we humans sense things in terms of people and locations - rather than fleas and mites.

And to Nihilus, anything below the power of a star or planet, is pretty much a mite to him.


I wonder if Nihilus and Palpatine came to exist in the same timeline, if Palpatine would submit himself to Nihilus as the student, and try to learn from him?

I can see Nihilus maybe using Palpatine as a pawn for a while - like an errand-boy, similar to how he used Visas, and then feeding on him later, when he gets bored and needs a snack.

Aww, who am I kidding?!?

Palpatine wins this.

Palpatine throws down a Force Storm, accidently dies, and then the judges jump out of their seats clapping in a standing-ovation that lasts one tear-soaked hour!

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/sexypalpatinefinalcg5.jpg


Seriously, how could you not like this guy?




(The judges fail to notice Nihilus, who has nommed the other Sith lords, and floats off stage, back to his ship. )

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Better than reaching around, which is something of an occupational hazard for you, amirite?
Well, you're probably desperate for a reacharound because as far as I know, there's no convention that street walkers are owed any sort of human contact. I, on the other hand, reach around for fun and comfort.



And yet, you've gone to great lengths to establish that N. is nothing more than a footnote in Galactic history compared to more politically accomplished characters; by your rubric of success, Vitatae will be taken to pound town almost immediately, whereas N. and Co. would be largely ignored.




I might not have written 15 pages, but basic literary analysis can distinguish between hyperbole (black hole) and basic character identifiers (eats the Force). I'm willing to accept Dooku's expert testimony so long as it's weighted with the awareness that he was both hopelessly cowed (as opposed to partially possessed) and that the Authors' need for hyperbole were much different (Tobin was N.'s "prestige" while Dooku was Palpatine's "pledge".

Speaking of street walker conventions, do you think your mother will tour or is she strictly a local "performer"?



My great length not withstanding (though I do appreciate you noticing), the fact that Nihilus is both politically and metaphysically insignificant compared to certain individuals and the claim that some of his more knowledgeable successors would have knowledge of him, his nature, and his powers are not mutually exclusive.



Your word choice is telling; "expert" is an adjective that better applies to Dooku than to Tobin. The former is an immensely powerful and trained Force user of many decades and the latter is just Tobin, a meager military officer whose Force expertise is completely unattested.

With this in mind, accepting Tobin's testimony as gospel whereas disregarding the Count's is already questionable. Worse yet for your argument is the fact that Dooku, unlike Tobin, is not only an expert in the Force but is in full command of his considerable mental faculties. Tobin, on the other hand, is deteriorating rapidly under Nihilus's trance.

So while I certainly acknowledge that Nihilus "eats the Force", I'm unconvinced that I should accept Tobin's flowery, hyperbolic prose as literal truth anymore than you with Dooku's grandiose commentary of Darth Sidious.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kreia so utterly overpowered those Jedi Masters, it makes you wonder just how powerful Nihilus was to disable her with a wave of his hand. Again, this is Nihilus at his peak. This means he's well fed and not a victim of a Force wound.


And among the people he'll be facing off against is the Sith Emperor.

Q99
Not just Dooku and Sidious. Krayt's done it too, and hasn't Bane as well?

I wouldn't think it's a rare ability.


Though I don't think concealing will be the main thing so much as, he even tries to Nom everyone and everyone will be hitting him with force drains, lightsabers, force lightning, and so on and so forth right back.

I have no idea if Bane and Krayt do it.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
I have no idea if Bane and Krayt do it.

Krayt definitely does it. He hid himself completely after his resurrection. Then, when he was ready, did the opposite, and announced his presence to all the Sith in the galaxy via the force.

Not a big comic reader, but I'll take your word for it.

Originally posted by Q99
Krayt definitely does it. He hid himself completely after his resurrection. Then, when he was ready, did the opposite, and announced his presence to all the Sith in the galaxy via the force.

Wasn't he hiding on Korriban? You don't need to mask yourself completley in the force then; after all Yoda didn't.

?
If you're referring to Yoda's ability to conceal his presence because of the cave on Dagobah, the Essential Atlas explicitly states that it was balancing out his light side signature with dark side energy. Canceling the other out, as it were.

Krayt isn't a light sider, so that won't apply on Korriban.

If that's not what you're talking about, then nvm.

Well that was just one example. Luke also was unable to sense the One Sith on Korriban so unless they can all hide in the force than I see no reason to assume Krayt could.

However, thinking upon it Krayt can certainly hide his dark side signature as seen in Apocalypse as Luke was unable to tell he was a Sith. Don't know if that means he can completely hide in the force though.

Edit: That applies to Palpatine and Dooku as well. Were they ever shown to be able to completely hide themselves in the force or just mask their dark side aura?

I'd say that would just be the miasma of dark side energy dulling Luke's senses on Korriban.

Krayt hid from Sith on Korriban- Wyyrlok and Nihl. And Nihl had no problem at all sensing other stuff around, and was a good tracker.

Oh yea, and Talon, Krayt's hand, hides, like, all the time. She's good at sneaking.

Originally posted by Q99
And among the people he'll be facing off against is the Sith Emperor.


Mhm, for the second that the Sith Emperor is alive.

So what's the story with that, anyway? Does Nihilus not have his Giga-drain in this fight, or are we just pretending it doesn't kill people instantly?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Mhm, for the second that the Sith Emperor is alive.

So what's the story with that, anyway? Does Nihilus not have his Giga-drain in this fight, or are we just pretending it doesn't kill people instantly?

Nihilus has it, but everyone knows he has it and it's not protection against people killing him just as fast.

I wonder what would happen if Sidious or Vitiate mind-dominatred N. and bound him to their will.

That would be some scary sh*t...

Originally posted by axel_jovan
I wonder what would happen if Sidious or Vitiate mind-dominatred N. and bound him to their will.

That would be some scary sh*t...

You mean like Darth Traya and Darth Sion did?


I wonder what it would be like if Nihilus mind-dominated Palpy or Vitiate..

I think Palpatine would make a much better servant - seeing as how he's actually decent at infiltrating organizations.

Really though, Nihilus would probably just prefer them as a snack, and nom them before either Sith got the chance.



Edit - Isn't his Will all about Hunger?

Nihilus would mind-dominate either Palpy or Vitiate, and use them as tools to find more food..

Originally posted by axel_jovan
I wonder what would happen if Sidious or Vitiate mind-dominatred N. and bound him to their will.

That would be some scary sh*t...

Hadn't thought of that. Given that Nihilus isn't exactly a poster child for strong will, this may work. Vitiate may garner a victory after all.

Not sure how Nihilus could mind dominate anyone here. In the game he never domniated any force users and certianly no one of as high of caliber as these combatiants.

Well you know, once you have someone like Tobin by the balls, the world's your oyster.

Revan makes it clear that Vitiate requires time before he can mentally dominate his opponents, which is why Revan was able to interrupt him. No such thing has been established for Nihilus' Drain.

Because Nihilus has not been shown to wield the attack against a prepared, trained adversary... I am disinclined to believe he could. He only attacked Kreia with Sion's assistance; the occupants of Katarr had no idea he was coming; and he stunned the Exile and party before he attempted to drain them, indicating there was the threat of active resistance.

On the other hand, Vader and Dooku both have the means to not only conceal themselves from Nihilus's sight, but to resist his drain courtesy of their immunity from the Dark Reaper.

Prepared and trained to do what? There is no known defence according to Kreai who could both use the Drain and train Nihilus in its use. I'll grant you maybe that Vader and Dooku can resist it, if we say that the Dark Reaper = Nihilus but not the others. Even then, considering that Kreia was a member of the Jedi Order when Uliq himself fought the Dark Reaper and still insists that theres no defence (and we saw there wasn't from her own experience with it), it looks unlikely that the attacks are one and the same.

Oh, and we saw the occupants of Katarr running away from his drain in Unseen, Unheard, indicating that there was time for them to do something about it. Its just that the only thing they could do was run.

And no it does not indicate that there was a threat of resistence, that is merely your own skewed interpretation.


Also nice to see you dodge my point. Some things never change.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Because Nihilus has not been shown to wield the attack against a prepared, trained adversary... I am disinclined to believe he could. He only attacked Kreia with Sion's assistance; the occupants of Katarr had no idea he was coming; and he stunned the Exile and party before he attempted to drain them, indicating there was the threat of active resistance.

On the other hand, Vader and Dooku both have the means to not only conceal themselves from Nihilus's sight, but to resist his drain courtesy of their immunity from the Dark Reaper.


Negatory. The three Jedi Masters at Dantooine were prepared to use the power of the Force to literally strip the Force from the Exile, or kill her, at the Enclave.

They were prepared for her and her companions, and when Kreia came forth and made herself known, she was still able to use a Weak Giga-drain on them - stunning and killing them within a second.

Also, Nihilus stunned the party on board the Ravager in order to interrogate them, as initially he was only interested on feeding on the planet below.

That Kreia is unaware of a defense whilst Ulic does is not evidence that the attacks are different; it is merely proof that Kreia, contrary to the "skewed interpretation" some ascribe to her, doesn't know everything.



Is there evidence that the ones who ran were the trained Force users of which I speak? Is there any evidence that they had time to conclude it was a Force based attack that could be prepared? Not dying immediately isn't synonymous with being prepared, though I thank you for clearing up the fact that Nihilus's drain isn't instantaneous. So much for everyone dying when he spoke, eh?



I'm not sure if you remember this, but it was I (and not you) who first broke the news to Janus and co. that Vitiate's mind thrall wasn't instantaneous. What you failed to take into consideration that the melee may allow Vitiate to pull off such an effort should he not be attacked in time.

What's more important is that you're still getting bent out of shape on all things Nihilus, so maybe things never do change.

And were in the process of doing this when Kreia arrived, yes, which afforded her time to attack them telekinetically.



Not at all. Not only were they completely focused on the Exile, allowing Traya her opportunity, when they recover, one even tells Kreia: "I thought you'd died in the Mandalorian Wars..."



Four seconds, actually. Plenty of time to react for some of these Sith Lords.



I'm not sure, since it is the Exile who actually speaks first, issuing threats, and Tobin expresses Nihilus's complete disinterest in her and her companions.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Hadn't thought of that. Given that Nihilus isn't exactly a poster child for strong will, this may work. Vitiate may garner a victory after all.



It's a double-edged sword - Darth Traya, who makes her life's business all about mind****ery, couldn't put a dent mentally in Nihilus.

Nihilus's Hunger IS his Will - it's all he cares about.

Kreia on Nihilus:
"One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do."

The best she could do was lure him to a planet - but could the Lord of Betrayal dominate his mind? No.

Sion couldn't either.

All Nihilus cares about is food - and in this battle he's got it right where he wants it - nowhere to travel to, no deals to strike - just instant buffet, right there.

If the battle were spaced apart, I could see one or two of the Sith Lords attempting to trick him to go to one location or another - but here in this staight-up fight?

Nihilus follows his greatest Master and does it's bidding -nomming the Sith around him.

There is a difference between psychological manipulation (what Traya does) and psychic manipulation (what Vitiate does). Traya is not, to my knowledge, an expert on using the Force to manipulate the mentality and perceptions of those around here, whereas Vitiate is.



Traya's commentary on Nihilus's mentality is speculative in nature; Nihilus shows signs of a functioning intellect throughout the game, whether it is his methodical hunt for Jedi, his manipulation of Vaklu, and his calculated betrayal of Kreia. Obviously there is no question that he is intellectually outmatched by others here, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have one of his own.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
And were in the process of doing this when Kreia arrived, yes, which afforded her time to attack them telekinetically.



And they were aware of her once she decided to attack them with her weak Giga-drain.






Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

Not at all. Not only were they completely focused on the Exile, allowing Traya her opportunity, when they recover, one even tells Kreia: "I thought you'd died in the Mandalorian Wars..."




They wouldn't try to kill the Exile and just allow her companions to gun her down.

And they had ample time to defend or attack, once aware of Kreia.





Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

Four seconds, actually. Plenty of time to react for some of these Sith Lords.

One second, actually - two, if you count the time right before they drop on the ground, dead.

3EtByaOxiwE

Attack begins at 8:43

8:44 she's finished

8:45 she retracts the beam, and they fall


Also, they're stunned while the beam strikes them, so I hope the Sith don't have anything to tally off their bucket list before they die.



Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

I'm not sure, since it is the Exile who actually speaks first, issuing threats, and Tobin expresses Nihilus's complete disinterest in her and her companions.



Exactly - he doesn't give a damn enough to want to drain them at first - until the Exile props the idea.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
That Kreia is unaware of a defense whilst Ulic does is not evidence that the attacks are different; it is merely proof that Kreia, contrary to the "skewed interpretation" some ascribe to her, doesn't know everything.

Kreia was a historian. Historians don't just study history, they record it. I find it highly implausible that she wouldn't know about the Dark Reaper.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Is there evidence that the ones who ran were the trained Force users of which I speak? Is there any evidence that they had time to conclude it was a Force based attack that could be prepared? Not dying immediately isn't synonymous with being prepared, though I thank you for clearing up the fact that Nihilus's drain isn't instantaneous. So much for everyone dying when he spoke, eh?

If Obi-Wan could feel the destruction of Alderaan half-way across the galaxy do you really think that the Jedi Enclave wouldn't feel the destruction all life on the planet they were standing on? Worse, the complete absense in the Force the attack brings? Do you think they'd just stand there blindly doing nothing while it devoured them?

No, it isn't. We even have a reasonable time-fram since just before the attack the narration says that in under and hour nothing would still be alive on the planet. Katarr was a planet and the attack reached all corners of it in under an hour, placing the attack in the range of moving tens of thousands of miles per hour. Well beyond anything that would enable any of the combatants time to dodge or put up a defence after it had been used in close proximity.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
I'm not sure if you remember this, but it was I (and not you) who first broke the news to Janus and co. that Vitiate's mind thrall wasn't instantaneous. What you failed to take into consideration that the melee may allow Vitiate to pull off such an effort should he not be attacked in time.

How could I remember when you've only been a member for under a week? And thats quite a funny thing to say given that you've strongly assumed that Nihilus will be attacked instantly. Will the melee give him enough time to pull off anything should he not be attacked in time too?

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
What's more important is that you're still getting bent out of shape on all things Nihilus, so maybe things never do change.

I would say that you're the one bent out of shape. What I'm merely doing is attempting to straighten you out a bit.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
There is a difference between psychological manipulation (what Traya does) and psychic manipulation (what Vitiate does). Traya is not, to my knowledge, an expert on using the Force to manipulate the mentality and perceptions of those around here, whereas Vitiate is.



All Sith Lords are experts in manipulating the mentality and perceptions of those around them through the Force, to some extent. She is the Lord of Betrayal.

You're a smart guy - you do the math there.



Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

Traya's commentary on Nihilus's mentality is speculative in nature; Nihilus shows signs of a functioning intellect throughout the game, whether it is his methodical hunt for Jedi, his manipulation of Vaklu, and his calculated betrayal of Kreia. Obviously there is no question that he is intellectually outmatched by others here, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have one of his own.

What I mean, and what they mean, is that Nihilus's greatest Master, and the one he takes all mental commands from, before others, is his Hunger.

That's his Will - to break it, you have to break his Hunger. Good luck to them with that.

If the fight was spaced out, the Sith lords could just try to lure Nihilus one way or another - but Nihilus's prey all grouped in one spot - he doesn't need any cajoling, any deals or anything - he has them, right where he wants them.

Traya is indeed a telepath. Early in the game she reads Attons mind despite him being trained to prevent that and later teaches the Exile to do the same. She also communicates with Atris telepathically across the galaxy and I think she psychically manipulates her later on based on how out of it Atris is in that scene, but I don't think its ever provable shown.

But you claimed that they'd prepared for the Exile's companions, which clearly isn't true.



Given that the Exile's companions weren't present when the attack began and they devoted their entire attention to the process of stripping the Exile of the Force, they clearly weren't concerned with intervention from her companions.



Certainly, the fact that they didn't is irrelevant since Nihilus's opponents here are, by all accounts, considerably more powerful than Kreia's adversaries.



My video says differently:

9Kep9mUEfxA

The attack begins at 4:50 and they drop at 4:54.



That the Council was immobilized doesn't mean that the Sith Lords here will be.



The Exile warns him not to. From the video that I've seen, there is no interrogation. Nihilus senses the intruders, deems them threatening enough to stun them, the Exile breaks the silence to notify Nihilus that he was duped by Traya and that he shouldn't drain them, and he does. As with Kreia and Katarr, Nihilus is not shown to wield his attack against a fully prepared adversary.



Who said she didn't know about the Dark Reaper? Even if she did, there's no reason to conclude she understood it intimately, especially compared to Ulic, who commanded the weapon under Exar Kun and devised the means to resist it. Historians aren't infallible and there is no reason to conclude Kreia is the exception to the rule.



Who said they wouldn't feel a disturbance in the Force? That doesn't mean that the disturbance originates from Force use: the example you cite is proof enough of that. The Death Star was an artificial device that had nothing to do with the Force and still prompted a massive disturbance. Who's to say that those on Katarr didn't assume it was some sort of technological or natural catastrophe, especially given the physical damage?



I am Iron ManGideon.



Absolutely, if Nihilus were given time to utilize his drain, he would kill all but those who can shield themselves from him or {possibly} those who can conceal themselves in the Force.



Nonsense, you're clearly seething with rage. Calm down, my son. My wrath shall be swift and my hands gentle.

I'm not supposed to talk to Gideon.

It is forbidden.

This is a dangerously broad generalization and Traya's self-proclaimed title hardly proves that she is an expert in such areas, let alone to the extent of Vitiate and Sidious.



I am and I have. The math says that there is no proof that Traya is an expert in the realm of psychic manipulation and that there is a vast difference between manipulations psychological (i.e. Traya & Sidious) and psychic (Vitiate).



Should Vitiate take control of his mind, it's irrelevant.



Because Nihilus isn't shown to prepared Force users, I'm hesitant to say he could. Additionally, Vader and Dooku are capable of shielding themselves from his powers. Even if he could drain the others, Dooku and Vader together are far too dangerous for him with only conventional skill at his disposal.



Of course Traya is a telepath, as most Jedi and Sith are, but that's not what I was disputing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not supposed to talk to Gideon.

It is forbidden.

Do not fear, for I am with you always.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Of course Traya is a telepath, as most Jedi and Sith are, but that's not what I was disputing.

According to what I've read on the subject on Wookiepedia, while all Jedi and Sith are telepaths, most of them can just read emotions and sense people. Few can actually read thoughts or communicate telepathically.


Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Do not fear, for I am with you always.

No. Its wrong. Its dirty. Its... taboo.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
But you claimed that they'd prepared for the Exile's companions, which clearly isn't true.
Given that the Exile's companions weren't present when the attack began and they devoted their entire attention to the process of stripping the Exile of the Force, they clearly weren't concerned with intervention from her companions.



They prepared for a fight, period.

They were prepared to kill, or strip. (And not in the way you're thinking )







Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

Certainly, the fact that they didn't is irrelevant since Nihilus's opponents here are, by all accounts, considerably more powerful than Kreia's adversaries.



Point is, them attacking her, once she used the Giga-drain, would be irrevelent because they would be stunned and killed within a second.






Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

My video says differently:

9Kep9mUEfxA

The attack begins at 4:50 and they drop at 4:54.



Yep, and in mine she takes them out in a second.

And stuns them all the while.





Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

That the Council was immobilized doesn't mean that the Sith Lords here will be.



Really, how would they not be immobilized?




Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon

The Exile warns him not to. From the video that I've seen, there is no interrogation. Nihilus senses the intruders, deems them threatening enough to stun them, the Exile breaks the silence to notify Nihilus that he was duped by Traya and that he shouldn't drain them, and he does. As with Kreia and Katarr, Nihilus is not shown to wield his attack against a fully prepared adversary.



Point is - Giga-drain already stuns the opponants - stunning them and then Giga-draining them would be redundant, since the latter already contains the former's effects.

If he wanted them stunned to kill or drained - he'd Giga-drain them.

As you pointed out earlier, he wasn't concerned with them initially, and stunned them long enough to allow them to ask questions and respond - ala interrogation.

And again, by the time Kreia had made herself known, the Jedi Masters were still alive, and prepared to attack or defend.

Like Neph and Battlemaster's points here. Also, totally forgot Kreia was a friggin' mind reader. I need to rebuy KotOR II.

It's down to Bane, Vader, Dooku, or Krayt. Very interesting....

Nephthys
No. Its wrong. Its dirty. Its... taboo.

le gasp

I wonder if I get an informer's bonus for reporting you. You know, like the SS grants me a pardon if I tell them you're under the floorboards?

Nah, its a completely thankless job. Trust me.

Damn. I was hoping Christoph Waltz would reward me. Went out and bought milk and everything.

Am I the Jewish chick in this analogy? uhuh

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Am I the Jewish chick in this analogy? uhuh

http://www.gmanreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Inglorious-Basterds-Christoph-Waltz.jpg

Your gun is effeminate. uhuh

It comes with a matching purse.

UMAD BRO

YES BECAUSE I BELIEVE I DIE AT THE END OF THIS FILM

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. You get shot by a sniper at point blank range.

Which is kinda sad, when you think about it. If you had simply double-tapped, you'd be good.

But like the phoenix I shall rise from the ashes to smite my murderers and their friends and families excellent

So the moral of Tarantino's story: Avoid camp, get shot by Nazi anyways, burnt to ash?

I had never seen it that way.

I was being figurative, but the significance of "ashes" and "Jewish woman" is not lost on me.

Well played, well played.

We're both going to hell for this thread.

I wonder what it will be like.

My assumption is that the coffee is cold and has grounds in it, there's no doors on the bathrooms nor TP, and the only thing to do is play FF7 until you attempt to gouge out your own eyes with your thumbs.

I actually picked a few points from video with Kreia. Those Jedi state that because of those events on Malachor, Sith have learn to feed on the Force of others.
"What's worse, is these Sith that we face... I fear that they have learned the lesson of Malachor all too well. It is what allows them to prey on Force users, to become stronger, when Force sensitives are near.
Somehow, they have learned their hunger from you. And so you have brought about the end of the Jedi, and perhaps the knowledge of the Force."

It means that this Jedi never faced Force drain before and were not capable to defend against it. Also, in this video it looks like she used combination of Force lightning and Force drain. Though, in another videos she used purely Force drain, so, this evidence is sort of unreliable.
What is for sure is that those Jedi are not warriors, they spend most of the time hiding, preferring to use their wisdom and knowledge instead of fighting, which makes sense why she took out them so easily.
Although, they did render Exile unconscious, it is because she did not try to fight back, they gave her brain washing persuasion before that, so she simply submitted.

It's ultimately inconsequential, because Vader and Dooku have the means to resist Nihilus and Kreia's efforts to drain them. Once those powers are nullified, it becomes a contest of conventional skill and power and I see no reason to believe they'd do anything but die quick deaths at the hands of warriors of Vader & Dooku's caliber.

The problem is that fights with this many combatants are difficult to determine because of the necessary scripting involved.

Also, I don't think that Nihilus will be able to do a lot of drain during battle. In game he tried to nom only Exile but during battle he would consume his former apprentice and mandalorian, if he could, so he needs to be out of combat to channel drain to full extend. Moreover, most of those Sith know the technique themselves and can shield from it or drain the Force themselves.

The only thing that plays in his favor is that other foes might not notice his drain at first as their attention is directed elsewhere. As example, it took Luke a while to notice Krayt draining him, when they battled Abeloth together.

Wait, when did Dooku and Vader display knowledge of Nihilus again?

The Ro2 Sith are all about passing knowledge of each other, I find it hard to believe that Sidious didn't know and teach them.

Nihilus's holocron definitely survived past that era, as Krayt had it.

Ah.

it's unquestionably retarded that N "thinks only in planets and systems" had a holocron. Since he thinks in only planets and systems,when did he take time to come back down to earth to make a "my diary?"

Originally posted by Q99
The Ro2 Sith are all about passing knowledge of each other, I find it hard to believe that Sidious didn't know and teach them.

Nihilus's holocron definitely survived past that era, as Krayt had it.

Well, Dooku was given limited access to materials and Vader was never a scholar.

So...


10,000 tons of force to the neck isn't enough?

Yeah, but on the other hand he isn't hindered by a gravity well here.

Sidious is a black hole of the Force, remember? vin

So he sucks?

Palpatine was draining life energy himself, so definitively he could resist it.
Vader discovered teachings of Ulic-Kel Droma about how to resist draining, so he, also, could resist it.
Dooku, while I don't think Plapatine taught him much and he never drained life energy, he put back Dark Reaper together himself, so out of convenience he probably learned how to resist it as well, so it couldn't backfire on him.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Sidious is a black hole of the Force, remember? vin


Is it odd that I actually know of a way Palpatine could defeat Nihilus, despite his Giga-drain?


The clue is that none of Palpay's attacks, nor the attacks of any of the other Sith can do anything in terms of offensive power against Nihilus, because they will die, every time.

But there is a way around this.. or to be more precise, in front of this.


And I have developed a respect for this ybrotes_Sargon, and his attempts to make a good argument for the other side (seriously) so maybe I could prop this theory.

I like Nihilus, and am well-aware of his capabilities, and respect them.

But I also give credit where it is due - and I'll unveil this viewpoint if you guys are game.

What say you?

Keep in mind that people who make flamethrowers don't become asbestos. You need something to defend this assertion better. Kreia likewise was a high level user of Force Drain, yet she was defenseless against Nihilus.



Pro tip: He's Ideon-Gay.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

The clue is that none of Palpay's attacks, nor the attacks of any of the other Sith can do anything in terms of offensive power against Nihilus, because they will die, every time.


Seems to me that his draining won't stop a bunch of lightsabers chucked at him.

Keep in mind that people who make flamethrowers don't become asbestos. You need something to defend this assertion better. Kreia likewise was a high level user of Force Drain, yet she was defenseless against Nihilus.

Ye, it's a good point. At best I can throw a few indirect comparisons and logical assumptions.
For example, when Jaina electrocuted Kyp, he wasn't harmed and stated that as he used to produce it, so could absorb, although it was Force lightning, same logic could apply to Force drain. Complete mastery of something normally means that you not only able to use it but to defend against it as well like with swords you not only attack but block as well or Jedi use TK as well as shield them from it.
Ulic-Kel Droma had knowledge of how to resist Force drain. How did he learned it? Fact is that he used to be Sith himself, so it is very likely that he learned it by mastering Force drain himself.
Considering that Palpatine mastered all known darkside powers and is one of the most powerful Sith of all time, it would be pity of him to have such weakness. He was scholar and Rule of Two was all about passing teachings. After 1000 years of building up knowledge chances that the technique about defending against Force drain was skipped are way too thin.

There is a force-absorb-energy skill. Corran Horn is good at it, Vader used it in ESB, etc..

And my response is always, 'stab them with a lightsaber first' counters just about anything.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Keep in mind that people who make flamethrowers don't become asbestos. You need something to defend this assertion better. Kreia likewise was a high level user of Force Drain, yet she was defenseless against Nihilus.



Exactly.



Originally posted by Stealth Moose

Pro tip: He's Ideon-Gay.



He who shall not be named.




Originally posted by Q99
Seems to me that his draining won't stop a bunch of lightsabers chucked at him.


It will, when they can't move to even use their lightsabers.






Originally posted by Q99
There is a force-absorb-energy skill. Corran Horn is good at it, Vader used it in ESB, etc..

And my response is always, 'stab them with a lightsaber first' counters just about anything.



If you use the conventional Force Absorb against Nihilus's contrastingly Planet-level Giga-drain - he'll simply out-absorb you and you'll lose the fight.


Also, the lightsaber-stabbing part is moot, as the Sith are likely standing apart from each other probably to some degree and not packed in like Sardines.

So, as you go for your saber, you get stunned/drained, and die.


- In other words - this battle needs far more than a one-dimensional sense of combat.

Keep in mind that there are many types of Force drain - yet this one is unbeatable - save for a Force Wound, hence the Exile being so special.




Now, would you guys actually like to hear how Palpatine could really defeat Nihilus?

The implication in KotOR II is that Nihilus is unable to be defeated without an unconventional defense - Surik's wound-like nature. While Anakin's Dark Reaper defense seems plausible, I don't know enough about its effectiveness to really defend or dismiss it as viable.