Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

http://www.formspring.me/TomBrevoort/q/328890845065405087

Q:Phoenix has been stated to have control over all matter. Odin doesn't trump that. That's just silly.

A:Odin is the All-Father, the creator of all things. That gives him a pretty good claim, I'd say.

Those are the words of Marvel editor Tom Brevoort regarding Odin and the Phoenix. Unfortunately, Tom has been wrong in the past so i put the question forward.

Who wins in a fight between Odin and the Phoenix force in these scenarios:

1. As seen in AVX
2. Dark Phoenix, Jean Grey

He is fairly accurate with Phoenix. And went ignoramus on Odin.

If Thor can hurt the PF...

Originally posted by Galan007
If Thor can hurt the PF...

Then so can Odin !

You see ! I'm smart too !

phoenix force

some of us have really been duped regarding thor's power vs the force

my goodness

no way in f****** hell does he stand chance vs the phoenix force

and the old guy loses here

what's next odin defeats white phoenix of the crown

monday rant of the 45 year old nerd

Originally posted by guy222
phoenix force

some of us have really been duped regarding thor's power vs the force

my goodness

no way in f****** hell does he stand chance vs the phoenix force

and the old guy loses here

what's next odin defeats white phoenix of the crown

monday rant of the 45 year old nerd



LOL

Marvel's cosmics ratings has been pretty wacky as of late.

I won't be surprised if Thor beats the Phoenix with his hammer (he has a VS comic against the Phoenix) the way things are going..

Odin 10/10. Did you see that quote in the original post? I told you people the PF wasn't Skyfather level. At best it's high Trans.

Phoenix wins.

Phoenix is slightly above the standard Galactus, who in turn is slightly above Odin.

High trans? the main reason behind allowing the Phoenix to reach Hope is to undo Wands "No More Mutants." Undoing that magical warp is clearly beyond that of a Godling in Skyfather level.

If the writer admits the Phoenix Rapture is a universal force, than its not a matter of ability, but of character flaw that allows writers to interpret random scenes/scenario.

Originally posted by zopzop
Odin 10/10. Did you see that quote in the original post? I told you people the PF wasn't Skyfather level. At best it's high Trans.
No.

Phoenix >>>>>> Odin.

I'm sorry, but that's not open for debate.

Originally posted by Magnon
Phoenix wins.

Phoenix is slightly above the standard Galactus, who in turn is slightly above Odin. Originally posted by "Id"
High trans? the main reason behind allowing the Phoenix to reach Hope is to undo Wands "No More Mutants." Undoing that magical warp is clearly beyond that of a Godling in Skyfather level.

If the writer admits the Phoenix Rapture is a universal force, than its not a matter of ability, but of character flaw that allows writers to interpret random scenes/scenario. Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
No.

Phoenix >>>>>> Odin.

I'm sorry, but that's not open for debate.
Here is what one of Marvel's own writers said to a fan :

FAN : Phoenix has been stated to have control over all matter. Odin doesn't trump that. That's just silly.

TOM BREVOORT : Odin is the All-Father, the creator of all things. That gives him a pretty good claim, I'd say.

EDIT, there's more!
FAN : "Has been so far." Why doesn't Thor just call Odin to beat Phoenix, then?

TOM BREVOORT : For one thing, Odin isn't really around or available at the moment. For another, would you call your father to fight your battles all the time?

EDIT 2 :
FAN : "Nope and nope." You think Odin's enchantment alone (nevermind Odin itself) are more powerful than the Phoenix? Really, now?

TOM BREVOORT: Has been so far.

/thread

Don't take my word for it, follow the link in the original post.

it appears Tom has been drinking water with lead in it

the phoenix should mop the floor with odin

lol if I was an editor, I'd troll fans, too.

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
it appears Tom has been drinking water with lead in it
There's more.

One guy asks if Jean with the Power of the Phoenix could lift Mjolnir, he said : NO.

Mjolnir's enchantments > the FULL PF.

According to Marvel : Odin >>>>>the FULL PF>>>Thor.

Odin is a Skyfather, Thor is a high herald. Where does that leave the full PF? Trans Tier.

Originally posted by zopzop
There's more.

One guy asks if Jean with the Power of the Phoenix could lift Mjolnir, he said : NO.

Mjolnir's enchantments > the FULL PF.

According to Marvel : Odin >>>>>the FULL PF>>>Thor.

Odin is a Skyfather, Thor is a high herald. Where does that leave the full PF? Trans Tier.
Trans tier?

obviously scans and past encounters prove otherwise
it's a primal force

similar to how the chaos war screwed with a log of origins
thus why many people view it as moot

phoenix can tap into an endless supply of energy by denying future lives existence

als

also, the force has beatin galactus with rachel as it's host, jean as its host blew arishem's thumb off, the destroyer with the asgardian lifeforce was beaten terribly by the celestials

Thaonos was beaten by squirrel qirl, likewise doom, i'm guessing you would rank her above those two?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
lol if I was an editor, I'd troll fans, too.

that would be the best thing ever....

Originally posted by zopzop
FAN : "Nope and nope." You think Odin's enchantment alone (nevermind Odin itself) are more powerful than the Phoenix? Really, now?

TOM BREVOORT: Has been so far.

What is this guy smoking?
Since his brain is already wasted he might as well do this: hang

Odin>Pheonix

Based on the current issues, pheonix low-mid skyfather at most.

Like people always thought he was.

Originally posted by Sundipped
What is this guy smoking?
Since his brain is already wasted he might as well do this: hang
Well according to wiki :
He became Executive Editor in 2007, and in January 2011 was promoted to Senior Vice President of Publishing. He holds both titles as of 2011.

So as of 2012 that's how Marvel sees the PF power wise. Odin > PF. It can't even overcome Odin's enchantments. So if Odin (who is a Skyfather) is at least a Tier more powerful than it (since the PF can't even overcome Odin's enchatments), yet it's strong enough to beat Thor (who is a high herald), that makes it a Trans Tier character.

Zop never fails to grasp onto some awful form of logic like cold death.

This time it's not even from comics.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Zop never fails to grasp onto some awful form of logic like cold death.

This time it's not even from comics.
Yeah well, take it up with Brevoort. He even stated that Odin's enchantments "so far" >>>>>>>>>>PF. If it can't overcome Odin's enchantments it's <<<<<<<<<<<<<<Odin.

What tier is a character that's less powerful than a skyfather but able to beat a high herald? TRANS Tier right?

pf. i think theyre in different tiers...and no way is pf trans tiers! Unless we're not talking one of the primal force of the universe, which is what the pf is.

if thats the case then the whole thing makes no sense
might as well kiss any marvel hierarchy THAT MAKES SENSE goodbye

also, wheres the link to the interview?

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
also, wheres the link to the interview?
http://www.formspring.me/TomBrevoort

Enjoy.

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing

also, the force has beatin galactus with rachel as it's host,
Galactus was hungry.

When fed G fought Phoenix years back, it was stated they were equal.
Originally posted by Mr.SunKing

jean as its host blew arishem's thumb off
Thor cracked Exitar's dome, and the incredible wall protecting Exitar's "brain."
Originally posted by Mr.SunKing

the destroyer with the asgardian lifeforce was beaten terribly by the celestials
I'm assuming you're suggesting Jean defeated Arishem cause of the "thumb" issue,
but that's not the case, just like Thor never beat Exitar by cracking his dome piece.
Originally posted by Mr.SunKing

Thaonos was beaten by squirrel qirl, likewise doom,
i'm guessing you would rank her above those two?
SQ is dumbshit and Doom is the Reed's anti-thesis,
which means he can do anything.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Galactus was hungry.

When fed G fought Phoenix years back, it was stated they were equal.

in short if the phoenix does rival Big in power
that would put the force leagues above Odin

Originally posted by Mr Master Thor cracked Exitar's dome, and the incredible wall protecting Exitar's "brain."

I'm assuming you're suggesting Jean defeated Arishem cause of the "thumb" issue,
but that's not the case, just like Thor never beat Exitar by cracking his dome piece.
false, that's not what i was suggesting, the was your implication

she damaged his thumb with just a small fraction of the force
wonder what the full force would of done?

Originally posted by Mr Master SQ is dumbshit and Doom is the Reed's anti-thesis,
which means he can do anything.
Plot Device



in short, going off panel from the past scans
phoenix should exceed Odin in power.

Brevoort must not be familiar with the rankings in relation to power

he dubbed Odin " the creator of all things"
since when was he TOAA???

===========================================


Planetary EMP,
which evidently is enough to shatter the almighty PF!

......................................................................................

Xorn, killing Jean Grey ... and exploding the actual Phoenix Force itself!

......................................................................................


On Panel:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534712_jean_dies1.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534714_jean_dies2.jpg

......................................................................................


Beast remembers:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2120694_jeandiesuj7.jpg

......................................................................................


This incident involving Xorn & the Phoenix Force
was actually recalled by the embodiment of the Phoenix Force itself in "Endsong"

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/4225596_pfbillioncl9.jpg

"I thought I was Dead, in a Billion Billion pieces"



......................................................................................


Bios: 100% canon

......................................................................................


(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2005 - Phoenix Force bio)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/543034_hct2005.jpg

"Jean Grey was Killed by an Electromagnetic Pulse,

this shattered the Force into Billions of PIECES"

......................................................................................


(from WC Phoenix - Jean Grey's official 2008 bio)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/537120_jean.jpg

"Jean opposed faux Magneto but was killed by a lethal EMP
that shattered the Phoenix Force into Billions of pieces"


===========================================

===========================================


The Shiar has made the almighty Phoenix Force it's ***** as well:


Actually they (Shiar) not only forced the PF's resurrection:


But they also shattered the PF itself into pieces
partially due to the "Event Horizon" they attacked it with:


So canonically, the PF has been shattered TWICE!

1. Into Billions of pieces by an EMP at the hands of Xorn.

2. By a Shiar device as well.

......................................................................................


On Panel proof:


Here's the PF again, being shattered, this time by the Shiar:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1807411_pf2rm9.jpg

......................................................................................


Jean Grey was still dead, since Xorn's EMP!

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1807412_pf4li2.jpg

......................................................................................


Here's the Shiar at the end of the issue,
explaining the "Eleka'an Event Horizon" they used on the PF.
The PF survived by escaping at the last moment,
but it was still injured, dying, meh, literally shattered again!

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1807413_pf5oq4.jpg

......................................................................................


100% canon


Bio confirmation of said on panel proof:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1807414_pf8mb4.jpg

"The Force was later ripped back to reality by a Shiar device
that forcibly reconstituted it. Injured, the Force fell ....
searched for Jean and, finding her DEAD, resurrected her ..."


===========================================

===========================================

The PF was manhandled, stomped and nearly killed yet again,
by some alien Ship:

===========================================



While the Phoenix Force is in it's purest form (no host)

The Ship, rips a hole in Space & Time in front of the Phoenix Force while in 616,
and forces it into the Multiverse that houses the Ultraverse Universe:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11817121_AS1.jpg

"Out of one marvelous Universe and into another"

......................................................................................


Then, the Ship attacks the actual Phoenix Force,
the SHIP wants to drain the energy of the Force:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11817126_AS2.jpg

"Impaled, Spitted, the Phoenix writhes as it's life is sucked out"

It has never known PAIN of this magnitude, it SCREAMS"

......................................................................................


http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11817129_AS3.jpg

"It's willfully torturing the Phoenix ..... am I imagining things,
or is it's fire going out, the colors are fading, like it's dying ...

... Truly,
the Phoenix is battling for it's life against the sear of Light that is stripping it's power away"

......................................................................................


The Phoenix manages to break free for a moment (though near death)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11817132_AS4.jpg

"Wounded the Phoenix falls, to survive, to mend, to heal, it must find a Host"

......................................................................................


The SHIP allows the Phoenix to escape for now,

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11817134_AS5.jpg

"to locate it's pilot program before draining it entirely"

......................................................................................



This is all 100% canon!


......................................................................................



(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook - Phoenix Force bio)

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11817359_AS00.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11817360_AS000.jpg

"Impaled on a Lance of energy, Wounded, the Force sought a host to protect it as it Healed"

===========================================

===========================


... Heck ... even a few heroes are enough to handle the Force itself!

===========================


A Few members of the X-Men and Ultra Force (six in all)
are sent to battle the actual Phoenix Force (host-less) ... this is the real deal.

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547141_P1.jpg

.....................................................................


"The assembled Heroes are tired & battered,
the Phoenix (no host) is reborn and fresh"

And they're still holding their own!

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547142_P2.jpg

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547143_P3.jpg

.....................................................................


The Six heroes beat (physically) the Phoenix Force (no host) into and through the Portal:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547144_P4.jpg

.....................................................................


The Phoenix Force ends up displaced by Four Billion Years:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547145_P5.jpg

==================================


100% canon


(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2005)

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2122019_Ulti.jpg

"the Heroes were able to drive the FORCE into another portal,
and it emerged Four Billion years in the Past"

---------------------------------------------------------------


Confirmed Again in the 2007 Handbook Bios:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2122020_Ulti1.jpg http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2122021_Ulti2.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
Well according to wiki :
He became Executive Editor in 2007, and in January 2011 was promoted to Senior Vice President of Publishing. He holds both titles as of 2011.

So as of 2012 that's how Marvel sees the PF power wise. Odin > PF. It can't even overcome Odin's enchantments. So if Odin (who is a Skyfather) is at least a Tier more powerful than it (since the PF can't even overcome Odin's enchatments), yet it's strong enough to beat Thor (who is a high herald), that makes it a Trans Tier character.

Don't tell me you're smoking too Zop?

Thor was only able to muster the feat of clipping its wings after absorbing some of the PF energy.

Let's recollect.
Mjolnir or "Odins enchantment" during a taxing/focused/concentrated attack (see Thor facial expression) failed. This was the result:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11929718_Secret_Avengers-Zone__010.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11929809_Secret_Avengers-Zone__011.jpg

"Thor is horribly injured"

Totally ignores "Odins enchantment" then goes and ignites a planet. Presumably to show the disparity in power levels.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11929840_AVX-Zone_006.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11929845_11871950_AVX-Zone_007.jpg

"Odins enchantment" won't register readings like this:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11929857_025.jpg

"Odins enchantment" vs. the PF one more time, sends Thor flying outta control.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11929875_AVX-Zone_023.jpg

The PF was doing this while amping Hope with a substantial portion of its power.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11929887_023.jpg

After seeing all of this, how can you, Tom, or anyone else come to the conclusion that "Odins enchantment" is in any way/shape/form/or fashion above or anywhere near the same league?

you do realize the force was in several pieces shattered all over the universe?@ Mr. Master

also the xorn situation was explained
im sure you've read " here comes tomorrow"

and of course when separate it would be weaker as to all fragments being merged together and it being whole, holding more power

also, your postings, are you trying to prove how
how do they display the phoenixes inferiority to the sky father?

atomically manipulating the universe should place her leagues above him

and also " i thought that was dead"
that was dark phoenix talking

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing

you do realize the force was in several pieces shattered all over the universe?@ Mr. Master
Yea, due to Shiar blasting it across space.
Originally posted by Mr.SunKing

also the xorn situation was explained
im sure you've read " here comes tomorrow"
I have it, and I read it, what should I look for?

Another spin of the facts?

Because it's quite simple.

Xorn used an EMP to kill Jean Grey,
and explode the Phoenix FOrce into billions of pieces.

On Panel, and confirmed in both handbook bios.
Originally posted by Mr.SunKing

and of course when separate it would be weaker as to all
fragments being merged together and it being whole, holding more power
What does this have to do with anything?

The PF was complete and got shattered by both Xorn and the Shiar,
got stomped by some Alien Ship from the Ultraverse,
and got handled by 6 heroes.

Now we got Thor with "faint traces of the PF" on his hammer
momentarily stalemating the Force, clipping it's wings, bashing it''s form
and even stating that it can be bested" according to his battle.
Originally posted by Mr.SunKing

also, your postings, are you trying to prove how
how do they display the phoenixes inferiority to the sky father?

atomically manipulating the universe
should place her leagues above him
When the hell did Phoenix "atomically" manipulated a universe?

Oh, you talking about "Here Comes Tomorrow"
where Jean holds the visualization of a universe and does nothing with it,
but travel back in time and force Scott Summers to stay with Emma,
therefore indirectly causing reality 15104 HCT (possible 616 future) to be altered/manipulated.

The only thing Jean did "atomically" was remove Sublime's atoms from reality,
which in turn amputated/disinfected the future of Sublime.

Unfortunately though, Sublime's dirty work was still present,
so in order to rub that possible future from the Multiverse,
Jean affected the source of the divergence, which was Scott.

Scott created Reality 15104 (Here Comes Tomorrow) via thought,
when he decided to leave Emma & the X-Men.

The second that decision was changed by Jean,
Reality 15104 was altered.

*note*

The trouble homegirl had to go through just to alter an alternate future,
when there are powers that simply exercise a thought, and reality is altered.

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing

and also " i thought that was dead"

that was dark phoenix talking
False!

That's the Phoenix Force itself in "Endsong." (the arc that follows up on the Xorn story)

There's no Jean or any host attached to the Phoenix in that scene.

So, do you feel that Odin could best the Pheonix Force, then, Mr. Master?

^^^ I never thought that before, but after the Brevoort interview,
and the PF's latest showings, I see now why the PF is almost always getting stomped,
and has never defeated a true opponent of significance,
and why it itself is insignificant concerning threats to the Cosmic Hierarchy.

Originally posted by Sundipped


Thor was only able to muster the feat of clipping its wings after absorbing some of the PF energy.
It was only "faint traces"

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11930051_P8.jpg
Originally posted by Sundipped

Mjolnir or "Odins enchantment" during a taxing/focused/concentrated attack (see Thor facial expression) failed.

This was the result:
Thor was holding the Phoenix Force back for a few panels,
and was injured but survived a direct full blast from the PF.

I'd say that's a plus for Thor.

Any other hierarchal cosmic would've fried Thor to slag
worse that Galactus did to Hercules.
Originally posted by Sundipped

"Thor is horribly injured"

Totally ignores "Odins enchantment" then goes and ignites a planet.

Presumably to show the disparity in power levels.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11929840_AVX-Zone_006.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11929845_11871950_AVX-Zone_007.jpg
My friend, I think you're seeing that incorrectly.

Thor's hammer dispersed the Phoenix's flaring form and his hammer kept going and hit that planet.

It was not the PF showing off, it was Thor by mistake.
Originally posted by Sundipped

"Odins enchantment" won't register readings like this:
What's the big deal about human instrumentation being in awe by cosmics?

This has happened with lesser threats.
Originally posted by Sundipped

"Odins enchantment" vs. the PF one more time, sends Thor flying outta control.
Thor will always lose against Phoenix,
it's the fact that he can hold his own for while,
survive it's brutal attacks,
and damage it.

This is what's standing out friend.
Originally posted by Sundipped


The PF was doing this while amping Hope with a substantial portion of its power.
"Substantial?"

I haven't read that anywhere. I know a tiny portion is what Hope has so far.

======================================


Anyhow, I think these scans you didn't post broadens perspectives:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11930053_P3.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11930054_P4.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11930055_P5.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11930056_P6.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11930057_P7.jpg

Thor not only held his own for a while,
but managed to damage the Phoenix Force,
and again survived another devastating attack,
plus, the PF ran away from him.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah well, take it up with Brevoort. He even stated that Odin's enchantments "so far" >>>>>>>>>>PF. If it can't overcome Odin's enchantments it's <<<<<<<<<<<<<<Odin.

What tier is a character that's less powerful than a skyfather but able to beat a high herald? TRANS Tier right? Tom isn't the one arguing it here.

And he's not presenting someone else's opinion about something not even in ****ing comics.

Again, awful logic is your forte. I don't care if you think Odin beats it, but using Tom B as absolute proof is ridiculous

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Tom isn't the one arguing it here.

And he's not presenting someone else's opinion about something not even in ****ing comics.

Again, awful logic is your forte. I don't care if you think Odin beats it, but using Tom B as absolute proof is ridiculous

How is it ridiculous? On panel we saw Mjolnir cause the PF to flee.

Off panel we have one of the top guys, if not THE top guy, at Marvel TELLING people : Odin > PF.

It don't get clearer than that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^^ I never thought that before, but after the Brevoort interview,
and the PF's latest showings, I see now why the PF is almost always getting stomped, and has never defeated a true opponent of significance, and why it itself is insignificant concerning threats to the Cosmic Hierarchy.


This whole AvX fiasco was nothing but crap from the very beginning. The "cosmic" threat turned out to be nothing more than a high Trans being acting the fool with a mutant teen.

Pathetic Marvel, simply pathetic.

Phoenix = cosmic Rhino

Anyone here really think Shi'Ar lasers, Thor's blitz, or Xorn would wreck Galactus the way they've severely harmed the Phoenix Force? Bill did almost the same stunt against Galactus, which cracked his helmet a bit, but who then reformed. For such a powerful being the PF seems to run away from fights a lot, or get killed.

My post was in response to Zop but I will address this.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It was only "faint traces"

Faint or not. Thor wasn't able to affect it up until that point. That had to be the deciding factor.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Thor was holding the Phoenix Force back for a few panels,
and was injured but survived a direct full blast from the PF.

I'd say that's a plus for Thor.

Any other hierarchal cosmic would've fried Thor to slag
worse that Galactus did to Hercules.

Now tell me when have you/or will you ever see Thor reduced to slag? This dude challenges Celestials and Big G with positive results for Gods sake. I agree its a plus.

Originally posted by Mr Master
My friend, I think you're seeing that incorrectly.

Thor's hammer dispersed the Phoenix's flaring form and his hammer kept going and hit that planet.

It was not the PF showing off, it was Thor by mistake.

Lets take what you say as truth. Why was Thor looking so dumbfounded when he missed his mark? I didn't see the form disperse. There's no evidence of Mjlonir even making a connection after the toss.

Originally posted by Mr Master
What's the big deal about human instrumentation being in awe by cosmics?

This has happened with lesser threats.

That was in reference to Zop saying Odins Enchantment>>PF.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Thor will always lose against Phoenix,
it's the fact that he can hold his own for while,
survive it's brutal attacks,
and damage it.

This is what's standing out friend.

"Substantial?"

I haven't read that anywhere. I know a tiny portion is what Hope has so far.

Of course he'll lose but in these altercations he was still outclassed easily. And the only noticeable damage that was directly seen was after Mjolnir absorbed some of the Force.


Originally posted by Mr Master
Anyhow, I think these scans you didn't post broadens perspectives:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11930053_P3.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11930054_P4.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11930055_P5.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11930056_P6.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11930057_P7.jpg

Thor not only held his own for a while,
but managed to damage the Phoenix Force,
and again survived another devastating attack,
plus, the PF ran away from him.

See above.
Not you too with this running away crap?
I know you hate the PF but geez.

Originally posted by Sundipped
I know you hate the PF but geez.
I know you talking to Mr. M but let me say he doesn't "hate" the PF. He's just a realist. The PF is < Odin. We know that for a fact because Marvel's top guy said it repeatedly to fans that were asking him questions about the AvX event.

Originally posted by Sundipped

Faint or not. Thor wasn't able to affect it up until that point. That had to be the deciding factor.
Thor held the PF back for a few panels before the "uru" stipulation came to light.

The second encounter is when Uru becomes a factor.

Again though, it was only "faint traces" (which means barely perceptible)
Originally posted by Sundipped

Now tell me when have you/or will you ever see Thor reduced to slag?
This dude challenges Celestials and Big G with positive results for Gods sake.
"Challenges Celestials, or big G ... with positive results?"


Originally posted by Sundipped

I agree its a plus.

Originally posted by Sundipped

Lets take what you say as truth.

Why was Thor looking so dumbfounded when he missed his mark?

I didn't see the form disperse.

There's no evidence of Mjlonir even making a connection after the toss.
Here Thor bashes the PF with Mjlonir which violently disperses the flaring Phoenix Form:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11930071_P10.jpg

Notice the hammer comes out the back of the exploding PF,
heading right for the planet.

.....................................................................


Here we clearly see Mjlonir returning to Thor's hand with a trail that's attached to the planet:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11930072_P11.jpg

Originally posted by Sundipped

Of course he'll lose but in these altercations he was still outclassed easily.
And the only noticeable damage that was directly seen was after Mjolnir
absorbed some of the Force.
It absorbed a fraction so small it can barely register.

That aside, what do you attribute the PF not being able to kill Thor?

Mind you the PF blasted the shit out of Thor on two different occasions,
Thor survives both, and came back for more after the first time,
and I'm sure he's coming back for more again.
Originally posted by Sundipped

Not you too with this running away crap?

I know you hate the PF but geez.
"Hate the Phoenix" my ass friend.

If you dislike what took place on panel,
and what was stated in correlation with what happened,
you have to email Marvel Comics and complain:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11930091_P12.jpg

"Phoenix Force .. just ran away from him"

"I clipped its wings" ... "It can be bested"

Originally posted by zopzop
I know you talking to Mr. M but let me say he doesn't "hate" the PF. He's just a realist. The PF is < Odin. We know that for a fact because Marvel's top guy said it repeatedly to fans that were asking him questions about the AvX event.

I'm not following the event as closely as I should so I don't know much about who;s writing it except for Bendis. Is Brevoort writing any of it or is he just giving his opinion?

Originally posted by zopzop
I know you talking to Mr. M but let me say he doesn't "hate" the PF. He's just a realist. The PF is < Odin. We know that for a fact because Marvel's top guy said it repeatedly to fans that were asking him questions about the AvX event.

Originally posted by Mr Master
, due to Shiar blasting it across space.

I have it, and I read it, what should I look for?

Another spin of the facts?

Because it's quite simple.

Xorn used an EMP to kill Jean Grey,
and explode the Phoenix FOrce into billions of pieces.

yeah, except for the fact that if it was completely "destroyed"
life would cease to exist , seeing there are people around still breathing? i suggest otherwise



Originally posted by Mr Master When the hell did Phoenix "atomically" manipulated a universe?

Oh, you talking about "Here Comes Tomorrow"
where Jean holds the visualization of a universe and does nothing with it

false, it was more than a visualization, the the other avatars even commented stating how manipulating so many atoms was a difficult task, even for the phoenix

and to add, she amputated the timeline, if she handn't, even after Scott's decision leading to a different future , the "here comes tomorrow" time line still would of existed as a divergent timeline

by amputating it, she completely removed it from existence
meaning that alternate reality never will exist

Originally posted by Mr Master The second that decision was changed by Jean,
Reality 15104 was altered.

indeed, but that decision did not cause the amputation or it's "non-existence", but a divergent timeline

Originally posted by Mr Master *note*

The trouble homegirl had to go through just to alter an alternate future,
when there are powers that simply exercise a thought, and reality is altered.

yeah HIGHER powers, except for the the fact that this case had different circumstances
that required complete severing, rather than just existing as an alternate timeline


Originally posted by Mr Master

There's no Jean or any host attached to the Phoenix in that scene.

hence why i said "thought"
still fragmented nonetheless


and what are you trying to turn this thread into exactly?
a phoenix hate thread?

son, i feel the phoenix is overrated at times indeed

i'd rather not deal with it, i prefer beings not amped by external sources

is it the most power cosmic entity? hell no
does it job at times?
hell yes, who doesn't?

however theres no way in hell any sky father should or would be competing with it

facepalm

I'm not wasting my time.

face palm?
an attempt to downplay my postings
quit the bull
i've stated my case guy

So the pheonix went to recreating reality to being below odin? Wow how sad.

Originally posted by TheMask

So the pheonix went to recreating reality to being below odin?
Wow how sad.
The PF and/or any of its avatars has never created, or re-created Reality.

It's greatest feat, was destroying the substance of an alternate universe,
on two separate occasions.

Both events took place in "What If" issues,
and the PF did not destroy space-time (those alternate Eternity/Infinity)
just the contents within. (Galaxies/stars and so on)

You guys focus way too much on power/ability, and lose grip because of its low showings. Characters are driven by plot, regardless of how powerful they are.

The Phoenix Force is powerful, at greater intervals than Odin himself. Not by word of God, based on an Editor trolling Galaticst...er I mean a Fan. Hell if thats the case, Mr. Master needs to change his hierarchy on cosmics. According to Tom he is the creator of ALL THINGS!

No we dont take word of God over on panel occurrences if they are conflicting with one another. The Phoenix Force that manifest within the 4th dimension, is an abstract concept with many roles to fill out. And as an Abstract its power can scale up to universal class. Thats its power/role.

However for all its majestic strength, and Cosmic Awareness. We are talking about an Abstract that losses its sense of logic, the moment it descends from the higher dimension. Thats its character ever since its formal introduction.

The fact that the plot demands to routinely interact, with much lower life forms opens its self creates these low moments due to the nature of the plots setting.

You will not see the same kind of Jobbing in other Cosmics. The other cosmics of this order or rank, do not meddle with lower life forms like humans. In fact they choose to distance themselves. These being that exist within the 4th dimension, retain their sense of logic, and interfere when it demands its presence. This again has to do with how the character is written up, and how the plot drives it.

If you can not grasp a simple concept such as this?... then I severely doubt you have any business here KMC forums as you are more likely a grown adult struggling to understand young teens comic book.

Can Odin defeat the Phoenix Force? Possibly yes.
Is Odin more powerful than the Phoenix Force? Definitely Not.

Originally posted by TheMask
So the pheonix went to recreating reality to being below odin's enchantments? Wow how sad.

Not even Odin, it can't overcome Odin's enchantments! I feel bad for GS, they destroyed his favorite character.

Id sums it up pretty nicely

and i don't ever recall the phoenix re-creating reality @TheMask

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
Id sums it up pretty nicely

Too bad only a select few can comprehend it.

Originally posted by "Id"

Mr. Master needs to change his hierarchy on cosmics.
According to Tom he is the creator of ALL THINGS!

No we dont take word of God
over on panel occurrences if they are conflicting with one another.
Although I never said TB's word was "God" ....

Tom Brevoort is the Executive Editor
and the Senior Vice President of Publishing in Marvel Comics.

He gets the last word of what goes on panel, and what does not.

That aside, TOAA, is still the writer/artist of any given story,
but obviously yes, ol' Tom tells them what's approved, and what isn't,
regardless of who came up with the idea.

Just sayin ...

That aside, IMO, his word does not contradict on panel showings,
for the PF and its avatars have displayed great weakness across the ages,
in comparison to what it's been hyped up to be here at kmc by some.
Also,
the Phoenix Force is no longer the "spark" that ignites creation,
as it used to be via hyperbole, (proven by the Alien Entity on panel)
and the Phoenix is no longer in connection with Eternity's recyclability
via ending him when its time,
as it used to be via hyperbole (proven by Entropy on panel)

This ... coupled with the fact that none of that shit is even alluded to
in either of the Phoenix Force's own 2005 and 2011 updated Handbooks.

Imo, is could be that we finally have some actual perspective
on where the PF stands power-wise.

Actually, how about 'retcon?' ...

Originally posted by Mr Master
Although I never said TB's word was "God" ....

Tom Brevoort is the Executive Editor
and the Senior Vice President of Publishing in Marvel Comics.

He gets the last word of what goes on panel, and what does not.

That aside, TOAA, is still the writer/artist of any given story,
but obviously yes, ol' Tom tells them what's approved, and what isn't,
regardless of who came up with the idea.

Just sayin ...

That aside, IMO, his word does not contradict on panel showings,
for the PF and its avatars have displayed great weakness across the ages,
in comparison to what it's been hyped up to be here at kmc by some.
Also,
the Phoenix Force is no longer the "spark" that ignites creation,
as it used to be via hyperbole, (proven by the Alien Entity on panel)
and the Phoenix is no longer in connection with Eternity's recyclability
via ending him when its time,
as it used to be via hyperbole (proven by Entropy on panel)

This ... coupled with the fact that none of that shit is even alluded to
in either of the Phoenix Force's own 2005 and 2011 updated Handbooks.

Imo, is could be that we finally have some actual perspective
on where the PF stands power-wise.

What you just stated, did not address what was quoted. Do you actually take Toms comment of Odin being this creator of everything without a grain of salt?

Its a simple question, that needs a simple yes or no.

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
you do realize the force was in several pieces shattered all over the universe?@ Mr. Master

also the xorn situation was explained
im sure you've read " here comes tomorrow"

and of course when separate it would be weaker as to all fragments being merged together and it being whole, holding more power

also, your postings, are you trying to prove how
how do they display the phoenixes inferiority to the sky father?

atomically manipulating the universe should place her leagues above him


What are you posting here? Your posts are so disjointe I'm not sure how to follow?

When was the Phoenix in a billion pieces and why does it matter?
If "here comes tomorrow" explains why xorns feat isn't all that impressive why don't you detail and provide scans?

And being broken vs being together are you referring simply to which scans or feats? When the shiar affected it?

Care to elaborate? I'm sure you know what you meant to say... I just don't.

Originally posted by rotiart
What are you posting here? Your posts are so disjointe I'm not sure how to follow?

When was the Phoenix in a billion pieces and why does it matter?
If "here comes tomorrow" explains why xorns feat isn't all that impressive why don't you detail and provide scans?

And being broken vs being together are you referring simply to which scans or feats? When the shiar affected it?

Care to elaborate? I'm sure you know what you meant to say... I just don't.

hopefully this clears the confusion up

in new x-men #150, right after jean suffered the planetary EMP, the phoenix force was apparently shattered

in which Mr.M used as an example of the phoenix's "jobbing"
in respect to the thread


what i meant to display was that despite being shattered
the force wasn't destroyed, given that if it was , life would cease
to exist. If anything, xorn didn't "kill" the phoenix, but rather jean
(human body)

and why i took Xorn's feat with a grain of salt was because if i'm not mistaken, jeans death was permitted
so she could be reborn 150 years into the future to amputate
the infected timeline to heal the future in "here comes tomorrow"



and in reference of being broken vs being whole
that was to display how the fragmented phoenix would naturally display lower showings of power due to it being "incomplete"

likewise the Shiar weaponry, which attempted to reconstruct the phoenix (an incomplete phoenix however )
Which traveled towards earth to search for Jean,which caused the events with Jean & Emma and the Cuckoos that transpired in Endsong and Warsong

im getting used to debating comics online, it's actually a new thing for me

*correction

i THINK the Shiar weaponry is what shattered the force
by trying to force it's premature birth

not Xorn

not unless he shattered it too prior when he killed jean, i will have to re-read
my apologies

*edit

Honestly, it seems Tom Bs view of the Phoenix force is shared by Marvel's writers as it's filtering into AVX.

Thor clipped its wing and stated it can be bested...it was even suggested that Odin's enchantments were overcoming the PF (Thor did hurt it in Secret Avengers). That suggests that a being of Odin's class could take the force.

I don't think Marvel's hierarchy see the PF as Galactus level anymore and its certainly not being treated like that in AVX (so far).

Originally posted by deathlife
Honestly, it seems Tom Bs view of the Phoenix force is shared by Marvel's writers as it's filtering into AVX.

Thor clipped its wing and stated it can be bested...it was even suggested that Odin's enchantments were overcoming the PF (Thor did hurt it in Secret Avengers). That suggests that a being of Odin's class could take the force.

I don't think Marvel's hierarchy see the PF as Galactus level anymore and its certainly not being treated like that in AVX (so far).

This is horrible reasoning.
Thor rocked Galactus with a Mjolnir shot to the head. Just because he was able to harm him in this way suggests Big G can be bested too right? Mind you Thor wasn't talking about himself being able to best the Phoenix but using your logic, the Odin Force is beyond Big G since he rocked him right? See what I'm getting at?

Whoever's saying the PF couldn't overcome Odins enchantment is outright lowballing (Tom included) because it couldn't do jack sh!t until after it absorbed a portion of the Force. And even after that, the PF flame broiled Thor again.

I don't see any skyfather taking a majority. Hell Thor performed waaaaaaaay better against a skyfather (Zeus) than he did with this entity.

This wasn't what i said. No one said Thor could beat the Phoenix. However, Thor himself stated the PF can be bested...obviously by something far greater than him. What we are debating is if the Phoenix force is still considered above sky fathers. Personally, i don't think they are but i don't think that view is shared by Marvel hierarchy (keep in mind that Tom B is an editor on AVX)



Tom low balling the Phoenix is the whole essence of the thread. The general consensus is that the PF is far,far above sky fathers. However, Tom B has suggested that we are wrong and my point is that AVX "seems" (nothing is confirmed) to be written this way. I mean, let's be honest, who here thought Thor could harm the PF before AVX??



Well, my thinking was that the PF was above sky father level so i'm not surprised to see Thor get turned to toast by the PF repeatedly.

Considering the fact that Brevoort doesn't believe in ABC logic , when it comes to fights between cosmics , even IF(and that's a big IF) the PF can now be overwhelmed by the Odinforce , then that in no way , takes away invalidates the dominance it has shown against Galactus in their previous encounters .

To prove my point , I'll give you an example of his reply regarding the Galactus-Odin , Celestials-Skyfathers and Galactus-Celestials comparisons :

FAN : "Hi Tom. In Thor 300, the combined power of a couple of sky fathers couldn't do serious harm to any one Celestial. Since that time, we've also witnessed Odin essentially stalemate Galacuts. How was Galactus able to destroy two Celestials in FF"

TomBrevoort 27 Mar :
"Because, as I keep saying, these situations aren't transitory. As in any other area of competition, one guy can beat another guy, who can beat another guy, who can beat the first guy. It's not math."

PS : I am new here , so I can't post a link . However , here is a snapshot of this particular interview :

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Considering the fact that Brevoort doesn't believe in ABC logic , when it comes to fights between cosmics , even IF(and that's a big IF) the PF can now be overwhelmed by the Odinforce , then that in no way , takes away invalidates the dominance it has shown against Galactus in their previous encounters .

To prove my point , I'll give you an example of his reply regarding the Galactus-Odin , Celestials-Skyfathers and Galactus-Celestials comparisons :

FAN : "Hi Tom. In Thor 300, the combined power of a couple of sky fathers couldn't do serious harm to any one Celestial. Since that time, we've also witnessed Odin essentially stalemate Galacuts. How was Galactus able to destroy two Celestials in FF"

TomBrevoort 27 Mar :
"Because, as I keep saying, these situations aren't transitory. As in any other area of competition, one guy can beat another guy, who can beat another guy, who can beat the first guy. It's not math."

PS : I am new here , so I can't post a link . However , here is a snapshot of this particular interview :

True.

Tom B doesn't support ABC logic at all.

Anyways, the PF is far above sky fathers..ANY sky fathers IMO.

Originally posted by deathlife
True.

Tom B doesn't support ABC logic at all.

Anyways, the PF is far above sky fathers..ANY sky fathers IMO.

That depends . According to its status as an Abstract , and on panel evidence throughout the character's history , it should definitely be way above any Skyfather .

Also , since Thor has been able to hurt another skyfather-level character(don't remember his name) by summoning the storms of a thousand worlds , and at one point was able to bring Odin himself to his knees(don't remember the issue , but I do remember Zop or some other poster claiming this feat, however don't take my word for it , I might be wrong in this case) , I don't think its conclusively proven that Odinforce is above the

However , since the Executive Editor plus Senior VP of Publishing in Marvel believes this to be the case , then for now the PF has now been relegated to below skyfather-level .
Otherwise current on-panel evidence seems to suggest that it is around skyfather level , as Thor , just by trying to clip its wings is severely beaten , while the enchantment of a skyfather on an uru malet is able to absorb only very minute/faint traces of the force .

Originally posted by zopzop
Not even Odin, it can't overcome Odin's enchantments! I feel bad for GS, they destroyed his favorite character.

I doubt that even this latest revelation/retcon regarding the PF's power-level , would change his opinion that Phoenix>LT .

Also , zopzop , in the arc where Desak and Thor fought , wasn't Thor unable to lift Mjolnir , until he proved himself worthy again ? If that's the case that a guy wielding the OF , can't overcome an enchantment of the OF , then this seems to imply that even the Odinforce<Odin's enchantments !

Originally posted by Mr Master
The PF and/or any of its avatars has never created, or re-created Reality.

It's greatest feat, was destroying the substance of an alternate universe,
on two separate occasions.

Both events took place in "What If" issues,
and the PF did not destroy space-time (those alternate Eternity/Infinity)
just the contents within. (Galaxies/stars and so on)

I have tried and tried to convince those phoenix wankers on comicvine this exact same thing . Holding a friggin orphan universe now suddenly means that Jean manipulated every aspect of the 616-universe ?! Since , in all your bouts with GS , you failed to convince him of the truth , can you try with the more dimwitted versions of him on comicvine , i.e lord_oraculous and LordOfAllHumans ?

Btw MrMaster , what's your opinion regarding the Erishkigal VS Thanos thread I made : ht tp://ww w.killermovies.com/fo rums/f77/t565306.html

Also , MrMaster , I would like to know ,if the Phoenix that was shattered by the Shi'ar weaponry and by Xorn's EMP , was only a firebird avatar , or the actual force itself ?

Originally posted by zopzop
This whole AvX fiasco was nothing but crap from the very beginning. The "cosmic" threat turned out to be nothing more than a high Trans being acting the fool with a mutant teen.

Pathetic Marvel, simply pathetic.

And to think that idiots on comicbookresources "conclusively proved" that Hope(who was only possessing a sliver of the PF) was able to scare away an entire host of Celestials , along with mind-controlling Tiamut ! LMFAO

Originally posted by deathlife
Tom low balling the Phoenix is the whole essence of the thread. The general consensus is that the PF is far,far above sky fathers. However, Tom B has suggested that we are wrong and my point is that AVX "seems" (nothing is confirmed) to be written this way.

That's the thing. There is nothing written nor any action displayed on panel to even suggest what he claims.

Originally posted by Sundipped
That's the thing. There is nothing written nor any action displayed on panel to even suggest what he claims.

The fact that he doesn't believe in ABC logic , when it comes to fight s between cosmic types , further adds ambiguity as to where the PF and Odin actually stand in the Marvel Cosmic Hierarchy .


FAN : "Hi Tom. In Thor 300, the combined power of a couple of sky fathers couldn't do serious harm to any one Celestial. Since that time, we've also witnessed Odin essentially stalemate Galacuts. How was Galactus able to destroy two Celestials in FF"

TomBrevoort 27 Mar :
"Because, as I keep saying, these situations aren't transitory. As in any other area of competition, one guy can beat another guy, who can beat another guy, who can beat the first guy. It's not math."

Phoenix get's head butted.

It's official, the PF has been retconned.

It seems it's been downgraded from being able to destroy the contents of a What If reality,
to a Galactic power.

In 616, it was never more than a Star system killer.

Odin's destroyed star systems in the heat of battle before. mmm

Xorn beat Phenix with a jggggg!

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's official, the PF has been retconned.

It seems it's been downgraded from being able to destroy the contents of a What If reality,
to a Galactic power.

In 616, it was never more than a Star system killer.

Considering that Tom Brevoort doesn't believe in ABC logic when it comes to cosmic level fights , its still unclear where both PF and Odin stand in the cosmic hierarchy now(although according to Brevoort , PF is now below Skyfather level) .

FAN : "Hi Tom. In Thor 300, the combined power of a couple of sky fathers couldn't do serious harm to any one Celestial. Since that time, we've also witnessed Odin essentially stalemate Galacuts. How was Galactus able to destroy two Celestials in FF"

TomBrevoort 27 Mar :
"Because, as I keep saying, these situations aren't transitory. As in any other area of competition, one guy can beat another guy, who can beat another guy, who can beat the first guy. It's not math."

Also , can you answer some of the previous questions I asked you in this thread ? It'll be really helpful if you can clarify my queries .

Originally posted by Damborgson
I'm not following the event as closely as I should so I don't know much about who;s writing it except for Bendis. Is Brevoort writing any of it or is he just giving his opinion?

Hickman is also writing it . To my knowledge , Brevoort isn't part of the team of writers for the AvX event .

Fraction, too, I believe.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Holding a friggin orphan universe
now suddenly means that Jean manipulated every aspect of the 616-universe ?!
The greater comedy is that she didn't even hold an actual universe,
it is was a visualization.

The whole scenery is filled with Morrison abstract symbolism.

I once too thought she had an actual reality in her hands (15104)
I now know that isn't the case.

Yea, ignorance has her "casually amputating a Timeline from the Multiverse"
or "casually manifesting the component parts of Eternity/Infinity reality 616"


LOL!!!

As for Jean supposedly "casually amputating a Timeline from the Multiverse" ... lol


Actually:

Jean extracted Sublime's atoms from the "Here Comes Tomorrow" (reality 15104)
and shifted herself into the White Hot Room:

(excerpt from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe - "Here Comes Tomorrow" bio)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935467_PF.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------


on panel proof:


----------------------------------------------------------------

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935541_PF1.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935542_PF2.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935543_PF4.jpg

As we can clearly see:

Jean extracts Sublime,
and then shifts into the WHR
this causes the amputation/disinfection of Reality 15104's future because Sublime is gone,
as Jean literally stated right there On Panel, as the Handbook literally corroborates.

NOTE:

When Jean says, this is "a coordinate disinfection. My friends were keeping you busy."

It clearly indicates this task (removing Sublime) was NOT easy for her
besides that it took her 6 pages of Prep, while her friends all died:








----------------------------------------------------------------


So, it's quite evident, that removing Sublime's atoms from Reality was not easy

Anyway,
Jean hands over Sublime (symbolically representing the present crisis in 15104)
to the PF consciousness.

The PF consciousness explains that while reality 15104 is still damaged,
it can be healed.

The PF consciousness takes Sublime somewhere, a pink Crystal is displayed, (Mkraan?)
and it's anyone's guess what the hell is going on in there

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11935602_PF5.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11935603_PF6.jpg

Jean is THEN told to "heal wound ... make better future .. grow quick"

Ok. Fine.

As we can see, unto this point,
Jean hasn't done anything except for "extracting Sublime's essence and shifting into the WHR"

We know it took her 6 Pages of prep,
and even her friends were died in the process to distract Sublime.

Jean literally tells Sublime "this is a coordinated disinfection"

Jean ends up in the WHR with Sublime in her hands and states:
"Intelligent bacterial colony gone rogue (Sublime)"I had to amputate the whole future"

So:

For White Phoenix of the Crown (reality 15104 Jean Grey)
Extracting Sublime's atoms is a difficult task (6 pages of prep)
and extracting Sublime's atoms and removing them from Reality = amputation/disinfection of said reality.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935746_PF7.jpg

"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds ...
not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown"

----------------------------------------------------------------


The visualization of Reality 15104 (possible 616 future) which appears in her hands,
comes afterwards.

So obviously Jean can't be attributing her comment to a feat she hasn't performed yet:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11935778_PF8.jpg

The ONLY feat she's perform up to this point is still, extracting Sublime's atoms.

Heck, she doesn't even know what the hell is in her hands,
yet in pure fabricated fashion she's supposedly manifesting 616 or even 15104 atomically?

What?

To change Scott's mind?

..................................................................................................

Anyway!

..................................................................................................


And what does Jean do?

What did she do when she said, "Live Scott?"

Jean touched Scott's Past-Self from withIN the WHR,
changed Scott's mind about his life, Emma & the X-Men,
and then Scott's decision Alters Reality 15104.

..................................................................................................


According to Grant Morrison's Editors of the arc:

(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935799_PF20.jpg

..................................................................................................


On Panel verification:


In 616, Scott walks away from Emma & the X-Men: (HCT - Reality 15104 is created)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11935802_PF21.jpg

..................................................................................................


Jean reaches back in time (150) to 616,
Jean changes Scott's mind so that Reality 15104 will not be created:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935806_PF27.jpg

..................................................................................................


Scott stays with Emma & the X-Men:


http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11935803_PF25.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11935804_PF26.jpg

..................................................................................................


Notice the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio literally states ...

... IT WAS Scott's decisionthat Altered Reality 15104 ...

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935807_PF22.jpg

"Letting go of Cyclops and willing him to live ...

In the modern era of Earth-616 ...

Cyclops took up the responsibility of running the X Institute ...

unknowingly ensuring that at least One apocalyptic Future ...

would Not come to fruition" ...


.................................................................................


And cats got her manipulating the atoms of 616 ...

What?

To change Scott's mind? ... I disagree.


Grant Morrison Editor's themselves told us what happened EXACTLY!!!!

.................................................................................


Again ... According to the Editors of the story:



"It was Scott's decision to walk away from Emma
that set the apocalyptic events of 'Here Comes Tomorrow' in motion
(Scott inadvertantly Created Reality 15104 withy a decision)

and Jean made sure that Future would never take place"

HOW WILL Jean Do This?

(what I've always said)

"By making him stay with Emma instead" ....

.................................................................

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Since , in all your bouts with GS ,
you failed to convince him of the truth ,
can you try with the more dimwitted versions of him on comicvine ,
i.e lord_oraculous and LordOfAllHumans ?
lol. Unfortunately intransigence isn't easy to budge, many times impossible,
but you can always copy and paste whatever you wish here, and smack them dow over there.

Originally posted by Mr Master

lol. Unfortunately intransigence isn't easy to budge, many times impossible,
but you can always copy and paste whatever you wish here, and smack them dow over there.

I got banned over there , for trying to follow the forum rules by notifying a mod(Vance_Astro) about multiple dbz vs comics threads(they are taboo at Comicvine) that had been posted.

lord_oraculous's bs was especially hilarious , as he used your scans to claim that Wanda had a scale of power greater than IG , and that it was the PHOENIX which reversed Wanda's spell . Although unlike GS , he's not stupid enough to claim that PF>LT , and in the WPC vs LT thread , (un)wisely stated that it would be a stalemate b/w the 2 , using a scan in which the LT basically treats the PF as his personal pet !

Also , can you clarify whether the Xorn and Shi'ar laser incidents
happened with the actual PF , or a firebird avatar ?

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's official, the PF has been retconned.

It seems it's been downgraded from being able to destroy the contents of a What If reality,
to a Galactic power.

In 616, it was never more than a Star system killer.

I remember reading a thread in which GS repeatedly spouted nonsense about a "Pre-Retcon IG" , in referrence to low showings by its ALTERNATE UNIVERSE counterparts .
I guess it'll come to bite him in the back , now(through Brevoort's interview) that we can have the term going around about a "Pre-Retcon Phoenix Force" eh ?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Wanda had a scale of power greater than IG ,
and that it was the PHOENIX which reversed Wanda's spell .
For me, the IG makes one "God" beneath the LT.

The 616 IG was not around during HOM,
and Wanda imo, achieved "Godhood" just as well.

Who would win imo, is a debate.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Also ,
can you clarify whether the Xorn and Shi'ar laser incidents
happened with the actual PF ,
or a firebird avatar ?
It was the Phoenix Force, (host-less) which is its purest form.
It's actually not as powerful once it takes a host.

The "firebird" avatar is as powerful as the PF will ever manifest.

So really, if the PF is more powerful in its natural state,
what difference does it make if it's an unconscious Concept.

It's like fighting Eternity, you can't smack "Time" by swinging at the air
which "Time" passes through since it moves everything along.
No.
You have to smack a manifestation of his (namely an M-body)
then you can literally smack "Time" in the face.

Eternity's form (M-body) is as powerful as he's ever come to battle.

Basically,
this is how "Concepts" interact and/or battle,
by manifesting in a form.

Same shit

We also know the PF was born,
so it was dead when the previous universe collapsed.

In fact, via most updated Canon,
the Phoenix Force came at some point after Space-Time (Eternity/Infinity)

It always did before this as well, the handbook clarifies this, but now it's explicit.

This is from the last issue of Avengers vs X-Men:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11936033_PP.jpg
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11936034_PP2.jpg

Notice Tony also says he's building a "Phoenix killer"
by manipulating universal expansion.

Originally posted by Mr Master
For me, the IG makes one "God" beneath the LT.

The 616 IG was not around during HOM,
and Wanda imo, achieved "Godhood" just as well.

Who would win imo, is a debate.



Wasn't it revealed in Children's Crusade by Dr Doom that the REAL source of Wanda's powers was the Life-Force ? So the real debate , imo , lies between Life-force powers and the power of the IG .

Also , I believe the most powerful unamped mutants of all time are Franklin Richards , Mad Jim Jaspers and Legion . Since MJJ is now dead , and Wanda's powers were retconned to being derived from the life-force , Franklin conveniently gets the title of "most powerful mutant" , although Legion can possibly take his place .

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is from the last issue of Avengers vs X-Men:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11936033_PP.jpg
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11936034_PP2.jpg

Notice Tony also says he's building a "Phoenix killer"
by manipulating universal expansion.

Phoenix-Buster armor.

I don't want to at times, but its hard not to respect Iron Man.

Originally posted by Mr Master

This is from the last issue of Avengers vs X-Men:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11936033_PP.jpg
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11936034_PP2.jpg

Notice Tony also says he's building a "Phoenix killer"
by manipulating universal expansion.

If anything , those scans indicate that the PF is NOT the Big Bang . I guess , Hickman was probably referring to the real life Large Hadron Collider through Tony's statement : "Particle accelerators simulate the big bang" .
Also these statements "At the beginning of space-time , cosmic death and rebirth were only microseconds apart ."
"Clearly the bird was born in that moment."
Seem to suggest that the PF , like all the matter-energy in the universe , was AFTER/FROM the Big Bang , and thus is not the big bang itself .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

If anything , those scans indicate that the PF is NOT the Big Bang . I guess , Hickman was probably referring to the real life Large Hadron Collider through Tony's statement : "Particle accelerators simulate the big bang" .
Also these statements "At the beginning of space-time , cosmic death and rebirth were only microseconds apart ."
"Clearly the bird was born in that moment."
Seem to suggest that the PF , like all the matter-energy in the universe , was AFTER/FROM the Big Bang , and thus is not the big bang itself .
Right, although the PF was never the Big Bang to begin with.

There was a misconstrued and incorrect statement made by a writer via the Watcher,
then there was the inconclusive writer that had Reed making an ambiguous statement.

Good thing later on,
the actual "spark" that ignites creation was displayed On Panel,
and it had nothing to do with the PF.
This "spark" was created from within the Alien Entity,
and indeed, he also re-created the original Big Bang with it,
and merged with the Fires/Engines of Creation as the Big Bang.

This time, Reed Richards was actually there, he helped,
so I'm sure he won't be confused ever again.

This interpretation is supported by Marvel's bios.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Right, although the PF was never the Big Bang to begin with.


Never said it was . I only pointed out that in the scans provided by you that its now confirmed on-panel , that the PF , like everything else in the universe , was born FROM the big bang , at a moment "microseconds" after the beginning of space-time . And Beast , Tchalla and Pym , all 3 agree with this assessment .
Hence , now we have on-panel confirmation that the PF is NOT the big bang . It is a primordial entity born microseconds after the beginning of space-time . If anything , this seems to suggest that Eternity and Infinity are more ancient than the Phoenix .

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Fraction, too, I believe. Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Hickman is also writing it . To my knowledge , Brevoort isn't part of the team of writers for the AvX event .

Its a huge cluster phuck....bigger mess than the Onslaught saga.

Originally posted by zopzop
Dude, if I'm wrong like with the Odin/Galactus incident, I'll straight up admit it and change my Avatar and Sig to respect the PF for 30 days (like I did for Galactus). But I have a feeling I'm right this time because of Brevoort's comments concerning the PF and Mjolnir's enchantments.

Yeah I'm looking foward to seeing a new avatar from you as well as Mr M rearranging his cosmic hierarchy. Whatever spot he has the witch in is gonna have to be substituted with the PF.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Yeah I'm looking foward to seeing a new avatar from you as well as Mr M rearranging his cosmic hierarchy. Whatever spot he has the witch in is gonna have to be substituted with the PF.
We'll see.................we'll see...................shifty

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Hickman is also writing it . To my knowledge , Brevoort isn't part of the team of writers for the AvX event .

Ah ok thank you. Well if Brevoort isn't on the team writing it then should his opinion really matter more than ours? He's a top guy at Marvel sure, but Odin being > Phoenix just on his word, seems pretty silly to me.

This could be a case of importance/status to the universe vs. actual power as well. Odin certainly has the feats to justify him taking on the Force itself, but he's far less important in the grand scheme of things.

Originally posted by Sundipped
No more Avengers?
That's actually a solicit for one of the later issues.

Something like "Cyclops changes the universe with these words "No More Avengers""

I was just thinking ...... AvX would make a kick ass movie if potrayed on screen using all the actors from the previous Marvel movies + some additional ones.

Everyone in favor push for it although it would be some time before anything like this even develops after all the associated arcs are concluded. It would be a lot to cram into 2 & ahalf to 3 hours.

Originally posted by zopzop
Dude, if I'm wrong like with the Odin/Galactus incident, I'll straight up admit it and change my Avatar and Sig to respect the PF for 30 days (like I did for Galactus). But I have a feeling I'm right this time because of Brevoort's comments concerning the PF and Mjolnir's enchantments.

I doubt that should be done , because Wanda no longer has the Life-Force powers , which amped her to her HOM levels . If Phoenix ends up beating her(which is most likely the case) , its only going to be regular Wanda at her full natural potential . There is no indication in #5 that Wanda somehow managed to regain the life-force . Although , if Marvel ends up revealing that the life-force IS the phoenix force(or a pat of the PF) , I too will gladly admit I am wrong , and will spam every thread the PF is in , worshiping her . Although to be honest , I have always regarded the PF , like most other cosmics/abstracts to be way above any skyfather , and the Brevoort interview surprised me .

The latest from Brevoort :

FAN : "Phoenix was stated to be in Galactus leval many times in cronology. And Galactus is above Odin. Why erase all old cronology ? Fans dont deserve respect ?"

Tom Brevoort : "When you're talking about power levels, especially at that scale, these things are not transitory."

Even more crap , er , answers from Brevoort :


FAN : "Do you belive Odin can beat Galactus in a fight (since he can beat Phoenix)"

Tom Brevoort : "I think that anybody can beat anybody depending on the day of the week."

Tom is awesome.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Tom is awesome.

I have asked him 2 questions regarding whether LT can lift Mjolnir or not , and how Odin compares to Franklin Richards in terms of power . If he answers "no" to the first one or "Odin" to the second one , then I'll retract everything I said about Phoenix(regarding its comparison to skyfathers) .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
The latest from Brevoort :

FAN : "Phoenix was stated to be in Galactus leval many times in cronology. And Galactus is above Odin. Why erase all old cronology ? Fans dont deserve respect ?"

Tom Brevoort : "When you're talking about power levels, especially at that scale, these things are not transitory." Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Even more crap , er , answers from Brevoort :


FAN : "Do you belive Odin can beat Galactus in a fight (since he can beat Phoenix)"

Tom Brevoort : "I think that anybody can beat anybody depending on the day of the week."
With an idiot like this as Marvel's top dog, is it any wonder why their recent series and crossovers (AvX, Fear Itself, Chaos War, etc...) suck ass?!
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Tom is awesome.
He sure is! If by awesome you mean moron, then yes. He's the biggest "awesome" currently working for Marvel.

Like I said, if I was the Editor of Marvel Comics, I'd troll fans getting agitated about power level discrepancies through Formspring, too.

My Rant of the Day.
AvX is the biggest load of shit Marvel has come up with. More so than the Onslaught Arc or Infinity Crusade.

Plot
Art
Execution
Character

They have violated, and written down everything. The only positive to come out this arc is Uncanny X-Men, and the New Mutants/Journey Into the Mystery tie in.

Originally posted by zopzop
With an idiot like this as Marvel's top dog, is it any wonder why their recent series and crossovers (AvX, Fear Itself, Chaos War, etc...) suck ass?!

Apparently Tom seems to have confirmed that Odin isn't the only skyfather that is perhaps above the PF .

FAN : "Odin is the All-Father, the creator of all things." Ain't Odin just a norse God? He's basically the norse Zeus.
smile
TomBrevoort : "Zeus is also the creator of all things. Interesting, isn't it?"

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I have asked him 2 questions regarding whether LT can lift Mjolnir or not , and how Odin compares to Franklin Richards in terms of power . If he answers "no" to the first one or "Odin" to the second one , then I'll retract everything I said about Phoenix(regarding its comparison to skyfathers) .

He will say "they are both beaucoup powerful" on your second question. He would probably say "why would he need to?" on the first.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Like I said, if I was the Editor of Marvel Comics, I'd troll fans getting agitated about power level discrepancies through Formspring, too.

I don't think that he's having a laugh at the fans' expense . If you have read ALL of his other replies , then you too would get the impression that he's a BIG-TIME Thor fanboy .

He is a big time Thor fan.

Originally posted by Tar-Antado
He will say "they are both beaucoup powerful" on your second question. He would probably say "why would he need to?" on the first.

I'll reply to the first , by telling him its not a question about need , its a question about capability . Is LT capable of lifting Mjolnir or not ? A simple yes or no should suffice . And if he still refuses to give a clear-cut answer , I'll tell him to stop dodging the question .

As for the second , yeah I agree with you , its pointless trying to get an answer from him on that one .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I don't think that he's having a laugh at the fans' expense . If you have read ALL of his other replies , then you too would get the impression that he's a BIG-TIME Thor fanboy .

I've actually read a lot of Tom's replies to questions over the years. And really, most of his comments are him having fun with some of the fans who get really passionate about power levels and the classic "who'd beat who" kind of discussions.

I remember a couple of years ago after Siege when Sentry fans came out in droves all pissed off because of what happened and Tom more or less shrugged and said "deal with it". And while his official position as editor certainly gives his opinion more weight, it's still that at the end of the day: opinion. Certainly not admissible as any kind of proof, but rather just an insight as to how one person views a specific subject. And no, Tom's opinion doesn't equal Marvel's.

As far as this specific topic goes, I certainly think the Phoenix Force is more important to the universe than Odin is, but in terms of power and formidability, Odin's got crazy ass feats to compete with the Force. And given some of the scans and context revealed in this thread so far by some, based on what we've seen so far, I wouldn't cry foul if Odin could best the Force under his own power.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I've actually read a lot of Tom's replies to questions over the years. And really, most of his comments are him having fun with some of the fans who get really passionate about power levels and the classic "who'd beat who" kind of discussions.

I remember a couple of years ago after Siege when Sentry fans came out in droves all pissed off because of what happened and Tom more or less shrugged and said "deal with it". And while his official position as editor certainly gives his opinion more weight, it's still that at the end of the day: opinion. Certainly not admissible as any kind of proof, but rather just an insight as to how one person views a specific subject. And no, Tom's opinion doesn't equal Marvel's.

As far as this specific topic goes, I certainly think the Phoenix Force is more important to the universe than Odin is, but in terms of power and formidability, Odin's got crazy ass feats to compete with the Force. And given some of the scans and context revealed in this thread so far by some, based on what we've seen so far, I wouldn't cry foul if Odin could best the Force under his own power.

OK . But , if we take into account ALL the on-panel evidence regarding their respective performance against the same opponents(in this case against Galactus and the Celestials) w/o counting any of the PIS , then , imo , the phoenix will definitely come out on top of any skyfather short of All-Father Hercules.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
OK . But , if we take into account ALL the on-panel evidence regarding their respective performance against the same opponents(in this case against Galactus and the Celestials) w/o counting any of the PIS , then , imo , the phoenix will definitely come out on top of any skyfather short of All-Father Hercules.

Fair enough.

In any case, bring Tom or his opinions into the forum as anything worth merit, regardless of how "right" it may seem to be or not be, doesn't do anyone any favors.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Fair enough.

In any case, bring Tom or his opinions into the forum as anything worth merit, regardless of how "right" it may seem to be or not be, doesn't do anyone any favors.

This thread was started by deathlife . He was the first one to bring in Brevoort's opinions . But , I guess if his opinions don't really matter , then its safe to say that Odin is not > Phoenix Force . Right ?

Brevoorts opinions are worth considering as an editor, but unless he actually wrote the stories in question his view isn't any more "correct" then anyone else. He simply should be assumed to know the characters.

evening all

i do believe axel alonso has the final say at marvel...i tweet em as well

mr. brevoort, i have had the pleasure of speaking with em regarding the eternal series, vangaard, galactus and tiamut

do i believe odin>pf hell f****** no

Originally posted by "Id"
My Rant of the Day.
AvX is the biggest load of shit Marvel has come up with. More so than the Onslaught Arc or Infinity Crusade.

Plot
Art
Execution
Character

They have violated, and written down everything. The only positive to come out this arc is Uncanny X-Men, and the New Mutants/Journey Into the Mystery tie in.

I don't like how they shoehorned in an Iron Fist/Phoenix connection.

Originally posted by cdtm
I don't like how they shoehorned in an Iron Fist/Phoenix connection.

Wait what?!

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
This thread was started by deathlife . He was the first one to bring in Brevoort's opinions . But , I guess if his opinions don't really matter , then its safe to say that Odin is not > Phoenix Force . Right ?

His opinions certainly don't hold any real weight outside of the fact that he has them, but Tom thinking Odin > the PF doesn't automatically make him wrong because his opinion doesn't mean much, if anything. Feats and histories and all that other stuff come into play, too.

Personally, I think the Phoenix Force's importance/status is far greater than Odin's own, but in terms of displayed abilities, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for Odin to fight it and do well.

Originally posted by guy222
evening all

i do believe axel alonso has the final say at marvel...i tweet em as well

mr. brevoort, i have had the pleasure of speaking with em regarding the eternal series, vangaard, galactus and tiamut

do i believe odin>pf hell f****** no

Can you reply to my PM ?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
This thread was started by deathlife . He was the first one to bring in Brevoort's opinions . But , I guess if his opinions don't really matter , then its safe to say that Odin is not > Phoenix Force . Right ?
Odin created the PF.
FAN : "Odin is the All-Father, the creator of all things." Careful there, you start sounding like a Thor fanboy soon (No offense).

Brevoort : Why? That's his job title.

/Thread

Originally posted by jalek moye
Wait what?!

Yeah, apparently the Phoenix is connected to K'un L'un somehow.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, apparently the Phoenix is connected to K'un L'un somehow.


http://www.troll.me/images/futurama-fry/futurama-fry.png

Originally posted by zopzop
Odin created the PF.
FAN : "Odin is the All-Father, the creator of all things." Careful there, you start sounding like a Thor fanboy soon (No offense).

Brevoort : Why? That's his job title.

/Thread

If you look at the first response in this thread:



Sounds like to me he's countering the fan bringing up a statement on Phoenix's behalf with a statement on Odin's own.

In any case, really don't understand why people are freaking out over this. *shrug*

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
If you look at the first response in this thread:



Sounds like to me he's countering the fan bringing up a statement on Phoenix's behalf with a statement on Odin's own.

In any case, really don't understand why people are freaking out over this. *shrug*

Nobody is freaking out. But when the top dog at Marvel says X is > Y, you listen because he has final say into what sees print.

Originally posted by zopzop
Odin created the PF.
FAN : "Odin is the All-Father, the creator of all things." Careful there, you start sounding like a Thor fanboy soon (No offense).

Brevoort : Why? That's his job title.

/Thread

He says the same about Zeus . Anyways , that's only his opinion , and as Jake pointed out , he is prone to troll fans that get too obsessed with power levels .

Although I'll admit , if he is indeed serious with such a shit*** opinion , then I have lost all respect for Marvel's editorial staff .

Originally posted by jalek moye
Wait what?!

It's an ongoing storyline in New Avengers, where they're showing flashbacks (During the time of Leonardo da Vinci, who they ask the help of.) of Yu-Ti having visions about the Phoenix Force and a red haired girl, and than eventually discovering that girl in K'un L'un, by a citizen that had an affair on a pilgrimage to Earth. So he decides to make her the next Iron Fist.

Originally posted by zopzop
Nobody is freaking out. But when the top dog at Marvel says X is > Y, you listen because he has final say into what sees print.

Not talking about this thread, but rather the fan or fans who keep hounding him about Odin/Phoenix.

And again, while he may be the editor, his opinion doesn't sum up Marvel's stance on any given subject.

Originally posted by zopzop
Nobody is freaking out. But when the top dog at Marvel says X is > Y, you listen because he has final say into what sees print.

If you read all of my previous posts , then you'll know that Brevoort doesn't believe in ABC logic . However I can't ignore him lowballing Phoenix like that .

Originally posted by zopzop
Nobody is freaking out. But when the top dog at Marvel says X is > Y, you listen because he has final say into what sees print.
Bendis stupid opinion > then Brevvorts. The Writers trump the editors in terms of whose opinion matters about a character. They are the ones who make it happen, Marvel editors mostly just approve things and make sure it's marketable to random people who won't read it and let guys like Bendis do whatever the hell they want.

And even then it only matters about the specific stories they wrote.

In the end, even writers opinions only matter in what's allowed to see print...

Which isn't something I'm happy with, but accept. Otherwise Simon Furmans glorified fan fiction he did for a Transformers convention, which ties up loose ends at the end of his Transformers: Generation 2 run, would be canon.

But I don't let canon affect my enjoyment of a story anyways. I subscribe to Alan Moore's words: "This is an imaginary story. Aren't they all?"

Originally posted by jalek moye
Bendis stupid opinion > then Brevvorts. The Writers trump the editors in terms of whose opinion matters about a character. They are the ones who make it happen, Marvel editors mostly just approve things and make sure ts marketable to random people who won't read it and like guys like Bendis do whatever the hell they want.



Besides, if Brevoort was such an unabashed Thor/Odin fanboy and had ultimate control over power level depictions and what not, pretty sure Thor's lower end showings over the past few years wouldn't have happened.