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If a KMC Movie Versus thread happened to have John McClane, of the Die Hard franchise involved, is this applicable as a "feat"? I can understand if this was Jason Bourne, where he tactically analyzes every part of his environment to resourcefully excogitiate some ingenious plan. But "being in the right place at the right time" is just that. Nothing about it is inherently based on the hero, so the feat is not theirs no? They didn't plan it. It just happened to be there. That happens to every movie character, and not just action heroes. So I'm simply bringing the validity of this "feat".

This isn't a vs fight.

Saying "luck" is dismissing of his other known power-set, his insane on-the-fly resourcefulness, eg using a Ford to take out a flying helicopter, cos you know, he "ran out of bullets."

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McClane had absolutely no idea that the car would catch on fire and he would have to evacuate it, and he showed no knowledge that he was intending for the car to drive up the toll booth. So does that apply as "his" feat?

He used a fire-hydrant to take out one of the shooters, that's on-the-fly resourcefulness to superhuman levels.

Are you suggesting he just got in the car and decided to just drive away; this was his initial plan. Then it caught fire and it just happened to launch off the booth and crash into the chopper? LoL

Clearly it was his intention from the start to use the car as a missile, the fire wasn't, but it's not like he needed the car to be on fire to take out the chopper with it. Saying otherwise is just downplaying.

That's exactly what happened.

And why did he complain about the car being on fire then?

And don't you, of all people, dare talk about downplaying feats

Originally posted by Lestov16
That's exactly what happened.

And why did he complain about the car being on fire then?

And don't you, of all people, dare talk about downplaying feats

No, dude, McClane planned it from the start. It's painfully obvious.

Probably cause driving a car on fire isn't fun. Would have been easier to launch if the car wasn't on fire.

Yet you clearly are downplaying that scene here.

So if the helicopter had happened to move (and when McClane enacted his plan, he had no chance of knowing that) and the car did a massive "airball", then what? He didn't plan that out. Nothing implies that he did

So you are not denying that you downplay feats

Originally posted by Lestov16
So if the helicopter had happened to move (and when McClane enacted his plan, he had no chance of knowing that) and the car did a massive "airball", then what? He didn't plan that out. Nothing implies that he did

So you are not denying that you downplay feats

Even if the helicopter had managed to move, it'd still be ****ing impressive feat, lauching a Ford off a tollbooth like a missile.

You know why it didn't move though, cos no one would think that feat possible, he completely caight the pilot by surprise. McClane does the impossible though, on a daily basis.

Please point them out.

Were Bruce Willis ever to make a porno film, Rob would buy 7 copies.

Originally posted by Impediment
Were Bruce Willis ever to make a porno film, Rob would buy 7 copies.

Show me your wife's *******.

Originally posted by Lestov16
So if the helicopter had happened to move (and when McClane enacted his plan, he had no chance of knowing that) and the car did a massive "airball", then what? He didn't plan that out. Nothing implies that he did



If he didn't plan for it to happen, why did he then drive towards the toll booth?

If he thought he'd simply smash through it and avoid a chopper directly above him then that doen't make any sense. He'd be mowed down by machine gun fire or driving around aimlessly trying to shake it off - neither scenarios would help either himself or Farrell.

Well a few scenes later (or before can't remember), a F35 pilot does this

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He has no logical reason for flying under a falling overpass, instead of just flying overhead where the truck was trapped. This scenario does not himself at all. But he does it anyway. This, along with Simon needlessly allowing McClane to live and giving him evidence, and Karl not shooting him in the face when he had the chance, just brings me to the conclusion that the people of the Die Hard-verse are ****ing retards who do shit for no logical reason

Originally posted by Lestov16
Well a few scenes later (or before can't remember), a F35 pilot does this

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He has no logical reason for flying under a falling overpass, instead of just flying overhead where the truck was trapped. This scenario does not himself at all. But he does it anyway. This, along with Simon needlessly allowing McClane to live and giving him evidence, and Karl not shooting him in the face when he had the chance, just brings me to the conclusion that the people of the Die Hard-verse are ****ing retards who do shit for no logical reason

Well the plane flying under the overpass is just the way the story went, you can't say it was done to benefit McClane. Your other examples are typical of every action movie or tv show out there where the villain keeps the hero alive and monologues so that's also got nothing to do with only McClane.

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
Well the plane flying under the overpass is just the way the story went, you can't say it was done to benefit McClane.

So if one person does something illogical, it be explained as "just the way the story went", but if another does something else illogical, then it's because they had some brilliant plan, despite the fact that it also can easily be "just the way the story went".

See that's what I like about guys like Bauer and Bourne. They make their own luck and don't have to wait to plot convenient circumstances to bail them out when their reckless behavior fails them horribly

McClane makes his own luck.

The universe just compounds it.

We found that through science.

He's so incompetent needs assistance from the laws of physics them self? WOW. That is just a whole new level of fail

(And not applicable in a versus thread, so if this is what "The McClane Factor" is, just luck, which any action hero, from Indy to Bond to even Bauer himself have exhibited on SOME occassions (when their SKILL can't take them that extra inch), and no skill at all, then McClane loses essentially every fight he's in)

Originally posted by Lestov16
See that's what I like about guys like Bauer and Bourne. They make their own luck and don't have to wait to plot convenient circumstances to bail them out when their reckless behavior fails them horribly

Now we're getting to the reason this thread was made...don't tell me through 8 seasons Bauer never caught a lucky break (and lets not forget Bauer had CTU resources to call upon), and Bourne spends his whole time running away from his enemies, yeah, complete hard asses without any luck at all to help them.

LoL, good point. Bauer does have the government backing him up. McClane gets a fat cop on a radio, a janitor, a dude from Harlem and a smart kid.

Clearly, someone does more with a lot less, McClane gets another +1 over Bauer.

Originally posted by Lestov16
He's so incompetent needs assistance from the laws of physics them self? WOW. That is just a whole new level of fail

(And not applicable in a versus thread, so if this is what "The McClane Factor" is, just luck, which any action hero, from Indy to Bond to even Bauer himself have exhibited on SOME occassions (when their SKILL can't take them that extra inch), and no skill at all, then McClane loses essentially every fight he's in)


All characters are ruled by and assisted by the laws of physics.

Everytime Jack Bauer jumps and doesn't jump all the way into deep space...laws of physics aided non-death.

Those physics dictate also that a man who died 8 times, will not win the "best at staying alive".

McClane has lots of skill outside of luck. Else all winning streak card players would be cops automatically.

Skills like what? Give me some GOOD examples of McClane walking into a area, scanning his resources, and implementing an escape. And I don't mean "use a rock to break a window", I'm talking complex plans, like Bauer and Bourne are capable of pulling off. And once again, don't include instances where he was ****ing pawned and then a resource popped up at the last minute due to the plot. To quote RLM, McClane's victories require more plot convenience than a 24-hour Walgreens

Originally posted by Lestov16
Skills like what? Give me some GOOD examples of McClane walking into a area, scanning his resources, and implementing an escape. And I don't mean "use a rock to break a window", I'm talking complex plans, like Bauer and Bourne are capable of pulling off. And once again, don't include instances where he was ****ing pawned and then a resource popped up at the last minute due to the plot. To quote RLM, McClane's victories require more plot convenience than a 24-hour Walgreens

Well the DH4 helicopter scene fits nicely, he surveys the situation, knowing that he'll get creamed if the free runners get in the tunnel, he devises the complex and dangerous plan of driving the car into the toll booth knowing that the trajectory will take the car into the waiting helicopter and then thus, a complex problem has been solved.

Why can't you understand that Bauer and Bourne adhere to the same rules of luck as any action star? If Bauer is not lucky, why is it that none of the top, top guys he goes up against doesn't just shoot him in the head when they first see him? Why do they keep missing him in gunfights?

Luck, plain and simple.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Skills like what? Give me some GOOD examples of McClane walking into a area, scanning his resources, and implementing an escape. And I don't mean "use a rock to break a window", I'm talking complex plans, like Bauer and Bourne are capable of pulling off. And once again, don't include instances where he was ****ing pawned and then a resource popped up at the last minute due to the plot. To quote RLM, McClane's victories require more plot convenience than a 24-hour Walgreens

DH1 is the first example, of course.. The entire movie happens that way.

On the level that he realises whats happening, then before taking the enemy down, he stalks them, gathering intell, names listing which floor is which and such and such. The rest of the movie shows him using that knowledge of enemies and surroundings to escape, killing all bad guys and saving the goodguys (minus Takagi).

He rarely ever walked into an ambush, and would usually cover a room whilst entering it.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
DH1 is the first example, of course.. The entire movie happens that way.

On the level that he realises whats happening, then before taking the enemy down, he stalks them, gathering intell, names listing which floor is which and such and such. The rest of the movie shows him using that knowledge of enemies and surroundings to escape, killing all bad guys and saving the goodguys (minus Takagi).

He rarely ever walked into an ambush, and would usually cover a room whilst entering it.



Exactly, and what's doubly awesome is that he had no strong idea how the building was even laid out (he might have had a brief glance at a map in the lobby I think) or where the terrorists were.

Bauer starts out every investigation only knowing a terrorist attack is imminent. He doesn't even have the luxury of being in the same vicinity as the terrorists (McClane of course requires this plot contrivance, because otherwise, he would utterly fail as a counter terrorist).Doesn't know where or sometimes even by whom. And 6 hours later, while McClane is dicking around with Zeus, Jack has already stopped the first terrorist attack ,and is on his way to stopping the second

Originally posted by Lestov16
Bauer starts out every investigation only knowing a terrorist attack is imminent. He doesn't even have the luxury of being in the same vicinity as the terrorists (McClane of course requires this plot contrivance, because otherwise, he would utterly fail as a counter terrorist).Doesn't know where or sometimes even by whom. And 6 hours later, while McClane is dicking around with Zeus, Jack has already stopped the first terrorist attack ,and is on his way to stopping the second

And at no point do "luck and plot contrivances" as you say help him out?

Likewise McClane's intell is self gathered most of the time.
He is never confronted with a badguy's whole plan right at the get go..he improvises, adapts and overcomes.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Bauer starts out every investigation only knowing a terrorist attack is imminent. He doesn't even have the luxury of being in the same vicinity as the terrorists (McClane of course requires this plot contrivance, because otherwise, he would utterly fail as a counter terrorist).Doesn't know where or sometimes even by whom. And 6 hours later, while McClane is dicking around with Zeus, Jack has already stopped the first terrorist attack ,and is on his way to stopping the second

He had CTU backing him up, feeding him information constantly so he can complete the missions. That's not going into a situation ignorant of the facts. Not to mention all the agents and mercs he teamed up with constantly.

McClane had zero help in DH1(Al was nothing but moral support), minimal help in DH2 (McClane moved of his own accord), DH3 he had help from Zeus but Zeus hardly affected any of the action, McClane took care of all the villains, and DH4 minimal assistance in the shape of Farrell (again McClane did all the work and all the moves were of his decisions)

Originally posted by Robtard
And at no point do "luck and plot contrivances" as you say help him out?

Nope. Seconds after Mason told him everything they knew about a nuke in LA, Jack immediately devised a course of action and got a lead. Using his own inituion and tactics

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Likewise McClane's intell is self gathered most of the time.
He is never confronted with a badguy's whole plan right at the get go..he improvises, adapts and overcomes.

Neither is Jack. There's a reason it's called 24 and not 6. Jack's has had literally hours (and with NO backup from CTU) to stop WWIII, caused by some villain who wishes to profit, and he's unraveled their plans and killed all of their henchmen before that can begin to re-strategize.

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
He had CTU backing him up, feeding him information constantly so he can complete the missions. That's not going into a situation ignorant of the facts. Not to mention all the agents and mercs he teamed up with constantly.

CTU always helps him, huh? Like when he assaulted murdered everybody in the Russian Consulate and assaulted Logan's motorcade? Or essentially the entire first act of S4, where Jack found and traced the lead by himself because his superiors considered him a loose cannon, and then stopped the terrorist attack (public execution) by himself by performing a one-man raid on the terrorist compound (not his first and DEFINITELY not his last one-man raid)

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
McClane had zero help in DH1(Al was nothing but moral support), minimal help in DH2 (McClane moved of his own accord), DH3 he had help from Zeus but Zeus hardly affected any of the action, McClane took care of all the villains, and DH4 minimal assistance in the shape of Farrell (again McClane did all the work and all the moves were of his decisions)

Complete strawman argument, as it's already been stated multiple times that the plots of the DH villains were far less complex than 24's

Originally posted by Lestov16
Nope. Seconds after Mason told him everything they knew about a nuke in LA, Jack immediately devised a course of action and got a lead. Using his own inituion and tactics

In all 8 season of the show, not once has luck or plot-device saved and/or allowed Bauer to prevail? I find that hard to believe, esp considering you said he died and was revived by the same villains that killed him.

If not, it stands to reason that Bauer consistently goes against epic morons and complete chumps, guys McClane would wipe the floor with, with his luck/resourcefulness/plot-help power-set.

HE's gotten lucky yes. But luck only accounts for about 5% of his success, while the other 95% goes towards his skills and professionalism

With McClane, it's the opposite. He's 98% luck and 2% villain stupidity

Originally posted by Lestov16
HE's gotten lucky yes. But luck only accounts for about 5% of his success, while the other 95% goes towards his skills and professionalism

With McClane, it's the opposite. He's 98% luck and 2% villain stupidity

I find that hard to believe, esp considering Shadow Z's comments on the show.

Incorrect, a larger percentage is on-the-fly-thinging and resourcefulness. But even if you're correct(you're not), McClane solos all episodes of 24 due to his "98% Luck-Factor", a guy that lucky wouldn't need the CTU, Gov Agents and Mercs helping him.

Originally posted by Lestov16


CTU always helps him, huh? Like when he assaulted murdered everybody in the Russian Consulate and assaulted Logan's motorcade? Or essentially the entire first act of S4, where Jack found and traced the lead by himself because his superiors considered him a loose cannon, and then stopped the terrorist attack (public execution) by himself by performing a one-man raid on the terrorist compound (not his first and DEFINITELY not his last one-man raid)



Complete strawman argument, as it's already been stated multiple times that the plots of the DH villains were far less complex than 24's

CTU was a major part of his info and even when he stepped off the grid he certainly found help among criminals, mercs and other agents. I'm sure he did do solo stuff and probably found villains that couldn't shoot straight or kill him when they had him incapacitated too. The suggestion that in 8 seasons (with a feat per episode requiring intel from someone) he had less help than McClane did in four films is ludicrous. That's where bringing a tv character in movie discussions really hurts you.

So? Complex or no he had minimal assistance and the moves he made were all inspired by one person - McClane. Bauer had CTU, mercs, criminals and agents holding his hand for 8 seasons pointing him everywhere.

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
CTU was a major part of his info and even when he stepped off the grid he certainly found help among criminals, mercs and other agents.

You realize half the time he goes lone wolf, and not only does he need to beat the terrorists, he has to avoid the government trying to capture him as well?

And the reason they don't kill him upon capture is because he holds valuable information pertinent to the success of the terrorist's mission. The Chinese Government tortured him for 20 months and he didn't crack.

And can you please stop asserting claims about Jack until you've watched the series?

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z

So? Complex or no he had minimal assistance and the moves he made were all inspired by one person - McClane. Bauer had CTU, mercs, criminals and agents holding his hand for 8 seasons pointing him everywhere.

Ignoring your comments about Bauer, because you are ignorant about 24, please comment on Bourne. This isn't a McClane vs Bauer thread afterall.

Originally posted by Placidity
Ignoring your comments about Bauer, because you are ignorant about 24, please comment on Bourne. This isn't a McClane vs Bauer thread afterall.

Well I'll ignore this whole topic because Bauer is not a movie character and Lestov is the one who keeps swinging this into a contest between McClane and Bauer and he also was the one who brought Bourne into this so why don't you go quoting him?

Yes the butthurt is strong with this one still.

Jeez, Saddie. First you put me in your sig. Now you're resurrecting my old threads from almost a year ago? If you want me to give you butthurt , just say so, and I can get the lube right now.

LOL You cry because it points out your butthurt and anti McClane bias.

(As does the indy dupe thread and the Van Zan thread lol)

Originally posted by Lestov16
If a KMC Movie Versus thread happened to have John McClane, of the Die Hard franchise involved, is this applicable as a "feat"? I can understand if this was Jason Bourne, where he tactically analyzes every part of his environment to resourcefully excogitiate some ingenious plan. But "being in the right place at the right time" is just that. Nothing about it is inherently based on the hero, so the feat is not theirs no? They didn't plan it. It just happened to be there. That happens to every movie character, and not just action heroes. So I'm simply bringing the validity of this "feat".

It's like the "Batman can beat anyone with prep time" absurdity. Or like claiming Rambo is a bullet-timer simply because he can stand in an open field an not get hit by the dozen or so soldiers firing at him... but really, that's just the "luck" property that every action hero has, some more than others.

Some people argue properly for McClane, admitting both his weaknesses and strengths, and I respect those who debate for him in this manner. But some people go as far as to claim McClane has unlimited damage soak or even that he's incapable of being knocked out... and that's where you know you've stepped into fanboy kingdom.

And people who post like that haven't seen the movies. ESPECIALLY Dh 5.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
And people who post like that haven't seen the movies. ESPECIALLY Dh 5.

Are you saying that McClane has unlimited damage soak and is incapable of getting knocked out no matter what?

I'm saying that screenfeats show that.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Are you saying that McClane has unlimited damage soak and is incapable of getting knocked out no matter what?

He withstood blows that would KO men. And jumped down the side of a building through construction ducts, without harm.

He's a monster in durability.

And that's just DH5.