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in an all out fight... (includind sabers and force) Luke would destroy Mace....

but what if it was just lightsabers

can luke defeat mace in just a saber fight?

Not likely. Mace takes this.

This is interesting because of Mace's vaapad... but by NJO? I gotta go with Luke, just gotta, his list of accomplishments is miles long. Brings to mind another question too...

@JinsokuTakai @truejedi

Excellent points, both.

Luke versus Mace, with just passive Force-enhancing abilities, and just a saber duel?

If this is (NJO Beginning) Luke, then Luke gets destroyed with only moderate difficulty for Mace.

If this is (NJO Ending) Luke, then Luke wins after the most difficult lightsaber battle of his life.

Im not sure about that. I have a feeling he could find a harder one, simply because the Vapaad-cycle won't be occuring. Not to mention that while yes, Mace is a great duelist, I don't think he is up to the caliber of Luke at this point. Luke not only had (some) knowledge of quite a few Prequel forms, a great knowledge of Djem So, and the 3 circles of attack developed by the Jedi under him (or did he make them? not sure) and his style purportedly used Djem So, Ataru, and Soresu as of ROTJ. (Wookieepedia, dont take that as complete truth) And if he throws in some of the new styles, Mace will have to strain himself to recognize how it all works, especially with both people having access to shatterpoint. (Luke had it as of this point, right?)

Originally posted by Pwned
Im not sure about that. I have a feeling he could find a harder one, simply because the Vapaad-cycle won't be occuring. Not to mention that while yes, Mace is a great duelist, I don't think he is up to the caliber of Luke at this point. Luke not only had (some) knowledge of quite a few Prequel forms, a great knowledge of Djem So, and the 3 circles of attack developed by the Jedi under him (or did he make them? not sure) and his style purportedly used Djem So, Ataru, and Soresu as of ROTJ. (Wookieepedia, dont take that as complete truth) And if he throws in some of the new styles, Mace will have to strain himself to recognize how it all works, especially with both people having access to shatterpoint. (Luke had it as of this point, right?)


Mace can still feed off his own dark Force energy to win the fight - even if he can't feed off Luke's.

And Mace was traditionally-trained from birth and likely has a much better conventional grasp of lightsaber swordsmanship than this Luke.

That, and the new styles didn't strike me as being very sophisticated - just bastard compilations and re-creations of old Forms.

It wouldn't throw Mace off one bit - and by this time I think only Mace has Shatterpoint - so even though it's in his favor here in some ways - Luke still wins.

I haven't kept up with the series names, to be honest. I read them if I can, sure, but the name of the series doesn't matter unless it changes the entire mythos around (ala, Vong war)


The new styles aren't sophisticated, they are Soresu combined with Ataru (light) I think it was Shien combined with Niman (medium) and of course, Juyo combined with Djem So (heavy)

Mace feeding off his own love of fighting is a great swordsman, but I don't think he is on par with Luke. The cycle is what makes him be in the top 3 of the Prequel era. Its my opinion Kenobi could take him

Originally posted by Pwned
I haven't kept up with the series names, to be honest. I read them if I can, sure, but the name of the series doesn't matter unless it changes the entire mythos around (ala, Vong war)


The new styles aren't sophisticated, they are Soresu combined with Ataru (light) I think it was Shien combined with Niman (medium) and of course, Juyo combined with Djem So (heavy)

Mace feeding off his own love of fighting is a great swordsman, but I don't think he is on par with Luke. The cycle is what makes him be in the top 3 of the Prequel era. Its my opinion Kenobi could take him


Stay off the Cocaine.

It has just seemed to me that the whole "Omg Vapaad uber winzorz" is really over played. I mean, if Mace were THAT good, why didn't he just go kill Grevious?

That and Vapaad fights like Grevious does. Offense makes your defense. But if the other guy makes defense his offense, your screwed.

Originally posted by Pwned
It has just seemed to me that the whole "Omg Vapaad uber winzorz" is really over played. I mean, if Mace were THAT good, why didn't he just go kill Grevious?


It is that good, because of it's mechanics.

And by that point in the Clone Wars, the Jedi and Jedi Leadership were stretched thin. Yoda and Mace were needed elsewhere, so Obi-Wan was sent to deal with him, instead.





Originally posted by Pwned

That and Vapaad fights like Grevious does. Offense makes your defense. But if the other guy makes defense his offense, your screwed.



No, you're not.

That's where Shatterpoint comes in. And because of it, the other person can only defend so long until he is overwhelmed, and his Shatterpoint is found.

Windu is skilled, but by NJO Luke Skywalker is too much. Recall how he he pretty much soled that Vong army... That was awesome.

Also want to point out that the author of TUF, James Luceno, hinted that Luke used Vaapad in TUF saying that he intentionally made it sound like Luke was using it.

Don't worry, I have read Shatterpoint (recently, actually) so its fresh on my mind how all of it works and how Mace fights.


But when it comes down to it, Mace was not needed anywhere more important. Ending the war was the priority, and it was believed killing Grevious was the way to do it. But Kenobi was supposedly the "most qualified" Now, I can see why Yoda didn't, Grand Master and all that, but Mace was just Master of the Order (I can't remember what all that entails, I will look it up real quick)
And yes, if somebody is nothing but offense, which is what a deep Vapaad immersion becomes, then Soresu will be its immediate counter. And 20 strikes per second I believe is Kenobi's breaking point, which Mace can not replicate.

Originally posted by ares834
Windu is skilled, but by NJO Luke Skywalker is too much. Recall how he he pretty much soled that Vong army... That was awesome.

Also want to point out that the author of TUF, James Luceno, hinted that Luke used Vaapad in TUF saying that he intentionally made it sound like Luke was using it.

IIRC Luke was in a Battle Meld with Jacen and Jaina at the time, so that wasn't something he could always do, presumably.

Well if so that is complete bullshit imo. I hate how Luke pulls super-advanced techniques literally out of his ass without any actual training. Its just so Sue-ish.

Well, Luke is one of the iconic characters of Star Wars. Of COURSE he can pull arguably one of the hardest techniques to ever exist (for a jedi) and use it all non chalant like.

Originally posted by Nephthys
IIRC Luke was in a Battle Meld with Jacen and Jaina at the time, so that wasn't something he could always do, presumably.

Was he? It's been awhile since I read, but I do rember Jacen and Jaina were pretty much gaping while Luke was killing it. Plus in the new Invasion comics Luke solos about a hundred Vong near the beginning of the war when he was still holding back. I'll see if I can find links.



Don't really care one way or another. Always hated Vaapad as it's pretty much an insta-victory over any dark sider in saber combat. I'd rather have Windu just be that good.

Originally posted by Pwned
Don't worry, I have read Shatterpoint (recently, actually) so its fresh on my mind how all of it works and how Mace fights.


But when it comes down to it, Mace was not needed anywhere more important. Ending the war was the priority, and it was believed killing Grevious was the way to do it. But Kenobi was supposedly the "most qualified" Now, I can see why Yoda didn't, Grand Master and all that, but Mace was just Master of the Order (I can't remember what all that entails, I will look it up real quick)




No, they were pretty much just being complementary to Kenobi.

By that time in the war, a lot of the Jedi were dead or displaced, and Mace was needed for the defense and leadership of Coruscant (You know - The Galactic Capital) and Yoda was needed for the defense and leadership of Kashyyyk.

So Mace couldn't be spared for tracking down Grevious, even though he could have killed him in a lightsaber duel, as he defeated Sidious, who could defeat Grevious in a lightsaber duel.

And Mace's position of "Master of the Order" was related to his leadership of the High Jedi Council.

Mace defeated Grevious before, and of course he could do it again - but neither he nor Yoda could be spared from their important positions. Important to understand that.





Originally posted by Pwned

And yes, if somebody is nothing but offense, which is what a deep Vapaad immersion becomes, then Soresu will be its immediate counter. And 20 strikes per second I believe is Kenobi's breaking point, which Mace can not replicate.



There's nothing that says Mace can't replicate that. And it's kind of silly to say he couldn't.

Mace is very likely much quicker than Kenobi - with better reflexes and Shatterpoint which will sort through Kenobi's defenses and strike his weakpoint.

Soresu may be the answer to Juyo - but it's not the answer to Vapaad, hence Vapaad being the deadliest Form, and for more than one reason.

Again, Mace took down Darth Sidious, but I'd be amused to see how long Obi-Wan's Soresu could stand up to Darth Sidious's Juyo - before Darth Sidious and his Juyo, killed Obi-Wan and his Soresu.


- Very important to remember and note these things.

Originally posted by Nephthys
IIRC Luke was in a Battle Meld with Jacen and Jaina at the time, so that wasn't something he could always do, presumably.

Well if so that is complete bullshit imo. I hate how Luke pulls super-advanced techniques literally out of his ass without any actual training. Its just so Sue-ish.


I know, totally..

Luke was the focal point of a Jedi mind meld during of the invasion into Shimrra's citadel, which calls the extent of his power output into question. On the other hand, given his earlier conversation with Jacen concerning Skywalker's fear of the dark side limiting his use of the Force in combat leading to battle fatigue, it could be that Luke was simply drawing on the Force much more than usual in combat and reaping the obvious benefits. Such calculated ease of restraint is what enables him to defeat UnuThul during the climax of the Swarm War.

As for the fight in question, I believe Skywalker is at a clear disadvantage in terms of technical skill. While he is a prodigy of epic proportions who undoubtedly mastered lightsaber combat, Windu is the beneficiary of a thousand years of uninterrupted dedication to lightsaber combat. His mastery of Juyo/Vaapad requires him to be a high end master of multiple lightsaber forms.

On the other hand, what Skywalker lacks in technical skill, he compensates for in his superior Force connection. Bane and Kas'im both believed that natural strength in the Force affords an overwhelming advantage unless there is a tremendous deficit in skill, which may allow Skywalker to win the duel. Likewise, though Windu is an undisputed master of the shatterpoint charism, Luke is a known practitioner of this {though it isn't clear when he developed the power; perhaps it was during LOTF, though I believe LSATSOM implies he knew it during that time} which may even the playing field. Finally, Luke's light side alignment means that Windu won't benefit from the superconductive loop of Vaapad.

Therefore I'd say that Luke takes it after a difficult battle.

Originally posted by ares834
I'll see if I can find links.

Well this is the best I could find. The one I was thinking of was in one of the first issue but none of the download links work any more.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4814/starwarsinvasionrevelat.th.jpg http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4814/starwarsinvasionrevelat.th.jpg http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4814/starwarsinvasionrevelat.th.jpg

Originally posted by Battlemaster
No, they were pretty much just being complementary to Kenobi.

By that time in the war, a lot of the Jedi were dead or displaced, and Mace was needed for the defense and leadership of Coruscant (You know - The Galactic Capital) and Yoda was needed for the defense and leadership of Kashyyyk.

So Mace couldn't be spared for tracking down Grevious, even though he could have killed him in a lightsaber duel, as he defeated Sidious, who could defeat Grevious in a lightsaber duel.

And Mace's position of "Master of the Order" was related to his leadership of the High Jedi Council.

Mace defeated Grevious before, and of course he could do it again - but neither he nor Yoda could be spared from their important positions. Important to understand that.









There's nothing that says Mace can't replicate that. And it's kind of silly to say he couldn't.

Mace is very likely much quicker than Kenobi - with better reflexes and Shatterpoint which will sort through Kenobi's defenses and strike his weakpoint.

Soresu may be the answer to Juyo - but it's not the answer to Vapaad, hence Vapaad being the deadliest Form, and for more than one reason.

Again, Mace took down Darth Sidious, but I'd be amused to see how long Obi-Wan's Soresu could stand up to Darth Sidious's Juyo - before Darth Sidious and his Juyo, killed Obi-Wan and his Soresu.


- Very important to remember and note these things. There are.... quite a few problems here.
1- A>B>C logic. Just because Sidious could beat Grevious, and Mace can beat Sidious, doesn't mean that Mace can beat Grevious. (not saying he can't, because he has)
2- Mace isn't as good as Sidious. He beat a guy who was only trying to stay alive, not kill him. Sidious was waiting for Anakin. Not to mention that is when Mace receives the benefits of the Vapaad cycle.
3- Vapaad is a modified Juyo. They are both Form VII.
4- If Sidious fought Kenobi, Kenobi would die. No doubts. But if Sidious went all out on Mace, force and all, i don't see Mace winning.
5- 20 attacks every second. It is physically impossible for Mace to replicate that, even with the force. Grevious is a friggin cyborg made to hunt jedi, so he gets the ridiculous crap. Mace can't do that.
6- Mace could have been spared to end the war. Coruscant had a much larger clone guard after the attack, and there were several other jedi who could have. Fact is, if Mace were better suited to fighting pure offense than Kenobi was, he would have gone. Mace is a no nonsense kind of person, and if you read Shatterpoint, you can infer that if he thinks hes best suited to do the job, then he will do it.
7- Would you say Mace=Yoda? Its easily safe to say Yoda>Mace. Don't even have to think about it.But by your logic, Mace=Yoda. Heres the explanation:
Yoda=Sidious. Mace>Sidious. Yoda>Mace. Therefore, Mace>Sidious=Yoda>Mace. Makes no sense.

Originally posted by Pwned
There are.... quite a few problems here.
1- A>B>C logic. Just because Sidious could beat Grevious, and Mace can beat Sidious, doesn't mean that Mace can beat Grevious. (not saying he can't, because he has)
2- Mace isn't as good as Sidious. He beat a guy who was only trying to stay alive, not kill him. Sidious was waiting for Anakin. Not to mention that is when Mace receives the benefits of the Vapaad cycle.
3- Vapaad is a modified Juyo. They are both Form VII.
4- If Sidious fought Kenobi, Kenobi would die. No doubts. But if Sidious went all out on Mace, force and all, i don't see Mace winning.
5- 20 attacks every second. It is physically impossible for Mace to replicate that, even with the force. Grevious is a friggin cyborg made to hunt jedi, so he gets the ridiculous crap. Mace can't do that.
6- Mace could have been spared to end the war. Coruscant had a much larger clone guard after the attack, and there were several other jedi who could have.
Fact is, if Mace were better suited to fighting pure offense than Kenobi was, he would have gone. Mace is a no nonsense kind of person, and if you read Shatterpoint, you can infer that if he thinks hes best suited to do the job, then he will do it.
7- Would you say Mace=Yoda? Its easily safe to say Yoda>Mace. Don't even have to think about it.But by your logic, Mace=Yoda. Heres the explanation:
Yoda=Sidious. Mace>Sidious. Yoda>Mace. Therefore, Mace>Sidious=Yoda>Mace. Makes no sense.



I sort of figured this would happen.

1. Yeah - if Sidious can beat Grevious because of skills and reflexes, and Mace can beat Sidious because of skills and reflexes, then Mace can beat Grevious because of skills and reflexes.
Very much so.

2. Mace can either channel a Dark sider's darkness into a weapon of the light - or his own darkness into a weapon of the light.
Sidious lost fair and sqaure.
Mace defeated Kar Vastor and Grevious, before.
Mace still wins.

3. Vapaad is different from Juyo - it has the Superconducting-Loop and Shatterpoint and from what I understand was re-engineered to be deadlier.
They are not the same animal.

4. Speculation. But from what we do officially know - Mace won.

5. Neither can Kenobi - he only responded to it with blocks, and timed attacks though - things that Dooku and Sidious could do - and things that the man who could beat them, could do too.

6. Fact is, Mace was needed for the defense of the Galactic Capital - which they could not risk having it taken. This is moronically-obvious.
Mace knew he was needed on Coruscant, as Yoda was needed on Kashyyyk. Mace's Vapaad is geared for killing in either offense or defense and he could defeat Grevious again if he needed to.

7. Mace definitely equals Yoda when fighting a Dark sider in lightsaber combat, and is probably on par with him when even just channeling his own darkness as a potent power source.

I'd suggest reading Shatterpoint again, and then about five or six more times.

Mace isn't on par with Yoda. Yoda is "the greatest foe the darkness has ever known" (not racist at all.... ok maybe a little bit since Mace was in the same sentence) while yes, it is not necessarily combat related, I would wager a good deal is.

Vapaad is a modified Juyo that channels the users aggression into fighting ability, and helps prevent falling to the dark side. The superconducting loop is what makes it a modified version.

Shatterpoint is a compeltely different ability.

He defeated Kar, yes. But Kar doesn't hold a SHIT off of Haruun Kal. I explained it somewhere else as to why he wouldn't. I would be happy to again, but I would have to tomorrow. Getting late. Anyways:

He channels his own aggression into it anyways, but if he can feed off the active dark side energies of the other duelist, it becomes better. However, against Jedi, this loop does not occur, as they channel the Light, not the Dark (usually)

A>B>C is not a valid argument, ever. ROTJ Luke>Vader>Cin Drallig, and by your logic, that means that Luke could beat Cin Drallig. Heads up, Luke can't beat Drallig.

Originally posted by Pwned
Mace isn't on par with Yoda. Yoda is "the greatest foe the darkness has ever known" According to Yoda.

Originally posted by Pwned
Mace isn't on par with Yoda. Yoda is "the greatest foe the darkness has ever known" (not racist at all.... ok maybe a little bit since Mace was in the same sentence) while yes, it is not necessarily combat related, I would wager a good deal is.




Uh. Duh. And Mace is on par with Yoda, in a few arenas.




Originally posted by Pwned

Vapaad is a modified Juyo that channels the users aggression into fighting ability, and helps prevent falling to the dark side. The superconducting loop is what makes it a modified version.




And Shatterpoint, among other things.






Originally posted by Pwned

Shatterpoint is a compeltely different ability.



It's used focally in Vapaad.




Originally posted by Pwned

He defeated Kar, yes. But Kar doesn't hold a SHIT off of Haruun Kal. I explained it somewhere else as to why he wouldn't. I would be happy to again, but I would have to tomorrow. Getting late. Anyways:




Hold a shit to whom? He's a tough mother****er.





Originally posted by Pwned

He channels his own aggression into it anyways, but if he can feed off the active dark side energies of the other duelist, it becomes better. However, against Jedi, this loop does not occur, as they channel the Light, not the Dark (usually)



Duh.

In that case he just channels his own darkness.




Originally posted by Pwned

A>B>C is not a valid argument, ever. ROTJ Luke>Vader>Cin Drallig, and by your logic, that means that Luke could beat Cin Drallig. Heads up, Luke can't beat Drallig.

Wrong

Vader held back on Luke, genius. Apples/oranges.

Again:

Yeah - if Sidious can beat Grevious because of skills and reflexes, and Mace can beat Sidious because of skills and reflexes, then Mace can beat Grevious because of skills and reflexes.
Very much so.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
According to Yoda.

Pwned is starting to make Arhael look brilliant.

Originally posted by ares834
Well this is the best I could find.

Nice finds.
Invasion is one of the reasons that I reconsidered my views on Luke. He really is the single most overall effective combatant in the mythos, I think.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
According to Yoda.
This deserves an obligatory "nuh-uh"

I see your point, but remember that the debate on this quote was literally done to death, even quite recently IIRC.
By no means it was decisively established that this observation comes from Yoda's perspective, nor was it firmly confirmed to be an absolute truth (though the quote discloses that Yoda realized the "truth", which supports the latter interpretation IMHO.)

Moving on....

Luke wins, but by no means it is an easy victory.

Originally posted by Pwned

5- 20 attacks every second. It is physically impossible for Mace to replicate that, even with the force. Grevious is a friggin cyborg made to hunt jedi, so he gets the ridiculous crap. Mace can't do that.


It was stated in the RotS novel that Mace's swordplay appeared as dozens of lightsabers attacking from every angle simultaneously. Dozens (being a multiple of 12 and therefore at least 24 is greater than 20). A specific number was never given, however it is heavily implied to be incredibly fast. Moreover, in Shatterpoint, Mace was able to hit Kar Vastor 6 times before he could blink (and really, how long does it take to blink?). Also, Mace was able to move his arms so fast that it literally appeared as though he had multiple arms instead of the normal two that most humans are limited to. The evidence is there that Mace is able to not only equal Grievous' speed, but surpass it by a considerable margin... especially by the time of RotS.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
According to Yoda.

No man, just... no. Otherwise we have Yoda referring to himself as a little green freak.

I had a very long post that was deleted by one mis hit key....


Anyways, Mace is great, no doubt about it. But when facing a dark sider like Sidious, one who pretty much embodies the dark side, he will be far better than he is against one who uses the Light side. His superconducting loop will not occur against a light sider, leaving him his own aggression, which he channels anyways, thats why he hasn't fallen and why he developed Vapaad.

Vastor, on the planet Haruun Kal, a planet steeped in the Dark Side, is the embodiment of the jungle that covers the planet. There, he is nearly unstoppable because of his attunement to the jungle. Off planet, he will not be as powerful.

I wouldn't put Mace on par with Yoda. Just my opinion though.


And cut a guy some slack sometimes, like most people here, I have a life to, so I can't exactly do my best at all times

I wouldn't place Mace on par w/ Yoda either... not with all things considered anyway. However, from a strictly lightsaber related standpoint, it could be argued that Mace Windu is on or at the very least, near Yoda's level. Now bear in mind that I'm not necessarily saying that he is or isn't, just that it could be reasonably argued as such. Personally, I have yet to come to a conclusion on this matter.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
I see your point, but remember that the debate on this quote was literally done to death, even quite recently IIRC.
By no means it was decisively established that this observation comes from Yoda's perspective, nor was it firmly confirmed to be an absolute truth (though the quote discloses that Yoda realized the "truth", which supports the latter interpretation IMHO.) I don't really read debates I'm not a part of from the beginning. As it is, that line came directly from Yoda's own thoughts. Which... f*ck him and his hubris.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
No man, just... no. Otherwise we have Yoda referring to himself as a little green freak. What? Palpatine referred to him as such. Yoda called himself an avatar of light and the most powerful foe thing. The perspective shifted in between pages.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What? Palpatine referred to him as such. Yoda called himself an avatar of light and the most powerful foe thing. The perspective shifted in between pages.

SILENCE CANADIAN!!!!!!!!

You will not stop me.

Major Valerian will become more powerful than either of us.

Originally posted by SWblayde938
in an all out fight... (includind sabers and force) Luke would destroy Mace....

but what if it was just lightsabers

can luke defeat mace in just a saber fight?
To be fair all out Luke uses lightsaber only. In books he occasionally uses Force to humiliate less important opponents but, when it comes to serious threat, he focuses fully on lightsaber using Force only to empower his body and defend against incoming Force attacks.

With exception that he channels lightness instead of darkness during combat.

As for Forms. They don't exist in Luke's universe. I read every single novel with him and the only thing that was mentioned is circles. Luke himself showed superior skill not by executing some arcane techniques or disciplines but simply by maintaining emotional stability fully trusting the Force and letting it guide his hands.

Hmm. I honestly can't remember them using battle meld, considering its weakness portrayed in Star by Star. If they did, Jaina's failure would heavily affect Luke and Jacen during fight. I don't remember there any hints about battle meld nor any specific synchronized moves. However, I like this ability and prefer to assume that it was present.


I can't agree with that. Vaapad is essentially state of mind. On first place it is about him using his own darkness.
Luke can give attacks as furious as Sidious, so Windu can accept that fury as effectively. Disagreeing with this would mean that Windu could absorb Palpatine's darkness as Force energy and redirect, which he certainly couldn't. This loop is all about enjoying fight and giving opponent's fury back, which is entirely psychological matter.

Luke defeated more powerful and fit version of Sidious, yet, there were dramatic circumstances involved.
While I side with Luke, if it is not "galaxy depends on it" fight, then their duel will be more or less equal.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Wrong

Vader held back on Luke, genius. I just noticed this.


A conspicuous bag of money with a dollar sign on it says that the RotJ novelization denounces this as wrong.

Originally posted by Arhael
I can't agree with that. Vaapad is essentially state of mind. On first place it is about him using his own darkness.
Luke can give attacks as furious as Sidious, so Windu can accept that fury as effectively. Disagreeing with this would mean that Windu could absorb Palpatine's darkness as Force energy and redirect, which he certainly couldn't. This loop is all about enjoying fight and giving opponent's fury back, which is entirely psychological matter. I agree, it is a state of mind. But what makes it so powerful is that all the dark side power, comign as rage, hate, fear, etc. being drawn upon by the enemy dark sider is that the Vapaad user takes their own aggression and love of fighting and turns it into a weapon. They then draw on the energy of their opponents dark side emanations to pump themselves further, just as their own rage does. He gets faster, stronger, and more precise when fighting dark siders. Palpatine just happens to be so powerful he can do what he did.

Thats what I understand of it, at least.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I just noticed this.


A conspicuous bag of money with a dollar sign on it says that the RotJ novelization denounces this as wrong.



If the novelization says that Vader didn't love Luke at all, then I'll have to concede to your point.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
It was stated in the RotS novel that Mace's swordplay appeared as dozens of lightsabers attacking from every angle simultaneously. Dozens (being a multiple of 12 and therefore at least 24 is greater than 20). A specific number was never given, however it is heavily implied to be incredibly fast. Moreover, in Shatterpoint, Mace was able to hit Kar Vastor 6 times before he could blink (and really, how long does it take to blink?). Also, Mace was able to move his arms so fast that it literally appeared as though he had multiple arms instead of the normal two that most humans are limited to. The evidence is there that Mace is able to not only equal Grievous' speed, but surpass it by a considerable margin... especially by the time of RotS.


Great points.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
If the novelization says that Vader didn't love Luke at all, then I'll have to concede to your point. Excellent. Next concede the fact that Vader lost to Luke fair and square.

Well Vader was conflicted in the fight and he never used force powers... And in the Courtship of Princess Leia, Luke says Vader held back on him.

However, I do think Luke legitamely beat him in sabers. Afterall, in SotE, Vader says Luke almost defeated him and that he was the most powerful Jedi he had ever fought.

Such are Luke's prodigious skills, indeed.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Excellent. Next concede the fact that Vader lost to Luke fair and square.


If you can prove that Vader didn't love him, sure I will.




Originally posted by ares834
Well Vader was conflicted in the fight and he never used force powers... And in the Courtship of Princess Leia, Luke says Vader held back on him.


Aha..

Originally posted by ares834
Afterall, in SotE, Vader says Luke almost defeated him and that he was the most powerful Jedi he had ever fought.


So Luke in SotE was more powerful than Obi-wan Kenobi or Mace Windu?

That's actually fascinating.

Kenobi doesn't surprise me, but Vaderkin never fought Mace.

Originally posted by ares834
in the Courtship of Princess Leia, Luke says Vader held back on him.


I'm thinking Vader held back on him, due to his love for his son - but was still impressed by his skill.


So, the reality is between Vader's viewpoint, and Luke's.

Originally posted by dgeoro_scattere
Kenobi doesn't surprise me, but Vaderkin never fought Mace.

Anakin had a few hard-fought sparring matches with Windu in the Clone Wars, to stay sharp.

He did? Where?

They then draw on the energy of their opponents dark side emanations to pump themselves further, just as their own rage does. He gets faster, stronger, and more precise when fighting dark siders.
Thats what I understand of it, at least. While this is part I am skeptical about but you actually made me reconsider it. I can't deny it as I know plenty of evidence myself about feeding on emotions of others. For example, Bane killed someone's children and fed on father's grief to heal some sort of illness (didn't read the book). It's just my perception of it is different.
For me power specifically improves TK feats and body strength and stamina.
While precision wholly depends on state of mind in general with no relevance to power.
And speed I discard as beautiful writing in novels. While some people can give lots of examples, where character moves "faster than eye can catch", I can give as many examples of powerful characters engaging in combat with non-Force users and sometimes even lose. For me speed is character's natural reaction he is born with and the fastest is the one, who can anticipate things faster/better with that natural reaction, than others.

In short I agree that Windu is better against darksiders but only in terms of having more physical strength and stamina. But not precision and speed, for them I give credit to his state of mind, the clarity and self-control that Vaapad gives Windu in general, which will work equally good against lightsiders.

Originally posted by dgeoro_scattere
He did? Where?


A few years back, I needed a Star Wars fix badly, and actually started reading the Clone Wars comics..

They aren't bad..


It's in one of them. Anakin, an Anzati Jedi Master whose name escapes me at the moment, and Mace Windu are resting before a battle, and Mace challenges Anakin to a rough and tumble sparring-match.

The Anzati Jedi Master had bowed out gracefully, due to his injuries, but Anakin was feeling competitive, and he and Mace got into a rough skirmish with each other.

Originally posted by ares834
Well Vader was conflicted in the fight and he never used force powers... And in the Courtship of Princess Leia, Luke says Vader held back on him.

However, I do think Luke legitamely beat him in sabers. Afterall, in SotE, Vader says Luke almost defeated him and that he was the most powerful Jedi he had ever fought. Vader "held back" in that his conflict made him cautious of Luke's attempts to confuse him with accusations of caring and goodness. By the time the fight reached the point where Luke decisively overwhelmed Vader, Vader had regained his confidence and Luke's mind was awash in doubt and fear. At no point in the narrative or the dialogue (from either Luke's or Vader's perspective) is it even insinuated that Vader was holding back. Luke kicked his ass (by drawing on rage) fair and square.

And Lucien is not the only one confirming it. Darth Power, also, read the book and said pretty much the same thing.

But we can still blame Vader's poor health!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Vader "held back" in that his conflict made him cautious of Luke's attempts to confuse him with accusations of caring and goodness. By the time the fight reached the point where Luke decisively overwhelmed Vader, Vader had regained his confidence and Luke's mind was awash in doubt and fear. At no point in the narrative or the dialogue (from either Luke's or Vader's perspective) is it even insinuated that Vader was holding back. Luke kicked his ass (by drawing on rage) fair and square.


If Vader hadn't held back at any point in that fight, Luke would be dead.

Remember, Vader, not holding back = TFU Vader.

Vader, even before coming face to face with Luke, didn't want to hurt or kill him. That's why when he discussed Luke's fate with the Emperor on one of the Star Destroyers, Vader said that he wanted Luke to come to him, and then the Emporer said, ( In Palpatine voice) "Lord Vader, I wonder if your feelings in this matter are clear..?"

Vader, from the end of ESB onward, didn't want to really hurt or kill Luke - in fact, you could tell that Vader really loved Luke.

A full-force Vader would have made deadly, un-prejudiced strikes with a lightsaber, and used his TK abilities to hurl Luke against the bulkheads, etc.

Though, this is somewhat obvious..

Or he held back as he didn't want to harm Luke that badly as he clearly cares about his son.

"Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive. Yet Luke had no illusions that Gethzerion would be so lenient."

"Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.

So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me."

Both from Courtship. As for RotJ, I can recall nothing confirms nor denies that Vader was holding back.

Not that I'm deciding one way or another, but Luke can still be said to have overpowered Vader even if Vader were holding back.

Originally posted by ares834
Or he held back as he didn't want to harm Luke that badly as he clearly cares about his son.

"Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive. Yet Luke had no illusions that Gethzerion would be so lenient."

"Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.

So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me."

Both from Courtship. As for RotJ, I can recall nothing confirms nor denies that Vader was holding back.



Well, that pretty much settles it.

Originally posted by ares834
Or he held back as he didn't want to harm Luke that badly as he clearly cares about his son.

"Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive. Yet Luke had no illusions that Gethzerion would be so lenient."

"Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.

So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me."

Both from Courtship. As for RotJ, I can recall nothing confirms nor denies that Vader was holding back. Is that all from Luke's perspective? Cuz the RotJ novelization gives us both his and Vader's. It's a pretty solid confirmation that Vader wasn't holding back.


Originally posted by Battlemaster
If Vader hadn't held back at any point in that fight, Luke would be dead.

Remember, Vader, not holding back = TFU Vader.

Vader, even before coming face to face with Luke, didn't want to hurt or kill him. That's why when he discussed Luke's fate with the Emperor on one of the Star Destroyers, Vader said that he wanted Luke to come to him, and then the Emporer said, ( In Palpatine voice) "Lord Vader, I wonder if your feelings in this matter are clear..?"

Vader, from the end of ESB onward, didn't want to really hurt or kill Luke - in fact, you could tell that Vader really loved Luke.

A full-force Vader would have made deadly, un-prejudiced strikes with a lightsaber, and used his TK abilities to hurl Luke against the bulkheads, etc.

Though, this is somewhat obvious.. Perhaps you're new to the clusterf*ck of inconsistencies in Star Wars canon. Needless to say, it's irreconcilable.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Perhaps you're new to the clusterf*ck of inconsistencies in Star Wars canon. Needless to say, it's irreconcilable.


Nah, not really.

Maybe Luke was lying while Gethzerion was killing him, though?


"So this is what it would have been like, if Vader hadn't held back.."

"No wait...I'm lying to myself..Vader wasn't holding back...lol'z.."

It's hard to discern your point...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's hard to discern your point...


My point is, Luke did make it clear later on, with Gethzarion, and at Leia's dumb courtship with Han, that Vader had held back on him.

Vader had made it emotionally clear, both at the end of ESB, and during RotJ that he didn't want Luke to get hurt or die - and this came out bit by bit.

Originally posted by dgeoro_scattere
Not that I'm deciding one way or another, but Luke can still be said to have overpowered Vader even if Vader were holding back.

No. You cannot "overpower" someone when they are holding back. If I let my son beat me at wrestling, then it cannot accurately be said that he overpowered me.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
If Vader hadn't held back at any point in that fight, Luke would be dead.

Remember, Vader, not holding back = TFU Vader.

Vader, even before coming face to face with Luke, didn't want to hurt or kill him. That's why when he discussed Luke's fate with the Emperor on one of the Star Destroyers, Vader said that he wanted Luke to come to him, and then the Emporer said, ( In Palpatine voice) "Lord Vader, I wonder if your feelings in this matter are clear..?"

Vader, from the end of ESB onward, didn't want to really hurt or kill Luke - in fact, you could tell that Vader really loved Luke.

A full-force Vader would have made deadly, un-prejudiced strikes with a lightsaber, and used his TK abilities to hurl Luke against the bulkheads, etc.

Though, this is somewhat obvious..
Vader held back by not using Force attacks. However, you are yet to prove he was holding back in lightsaber combat. And lightsaber combat is the exact topic we have here.

I think it was pretty obvious that Vader wasn't going all-out, but that when Luke went ballistic and put him on hs ass Vader was legitimately overowered.

In other words, on Vader's end, it's kind of subtle.


(On Dathomir)

But Luke's all, "Oh man! Is this what Dad would have been like, if he hadn't been holding back on me..?"


(Luke at Leia's wedding-reception)

Leia: "Yeah, so you and Dad fought a while back...eh?"

Luke: "Yeah..he held back."

Leia: "That's why you're standing here, able to talk to me?"

Luke: "Yup."

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
No. You cannot "overpower" someone when they are holding back. If I let my son beat me at wrestling, then it cannot accurately be said that he overpowered me.


Exactly!

And you've made this point before, in another thread.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Is that all from Luke's perspective? Cuz the RotJ novelization gives us both his and Vader's. It's a pretty solid confirmation that Vader wasn't holding back.

Yeah it is. I'm curious though, what part of the duel is from Vader's perspective? The way I have always viewed the fight was that throughout most of the fight Vader was toying with Luke and trying to tip him towards darkness. But he pushes too hard, Luke snaps, and then Vader is defenseless against Luke's rage induced onslaught.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
No. You cannot "overpower" someone when they are holding back. If I let my son beat me at wrestling, then it cannot accurately be said that he overpowered me.

Yes. If your son subdues you with greater force than what you're applying against him, he's overpowered you. If you never lift a hand against him and fall down on purpose, then sure, I'd agree.

Originally posted by dgeoro_scattere
Yes. If your son subdues you with greater force than what you're applying against him, he's overpowered you. If you never lift a hand against him and fall down on purpose, then sure, I'd agree.


Didn't Vader weigh like a thousand pounds?

It might be difficult to overpower that much applied force.

It's an issue of semantics.
The word "overpower" connotes factual, complete superiority in whatever area is being discussed. But all it means is that one is applying superior force than and against another, which remains the case if one combatant refuses to unleash.

I remember reading somewhere that Vader's full-powered strikes had so much weight behind them, that they would cause the other combatant's wrists to sprain/break.

I believe that may be TFU.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Didn't Vader weigh like a thousand pounds?

It might be difficult to overpower that much applied force.
Didn't Vader have breath difficulties? And wasn't he slowed down by his armor, which you claim weigh thousand pounds?
It might be difficult to outlast much younger, fitter and faster opponent.

Originally posted by Arhael
Didn't Vader have breath difficulties? And wasn't he slowed down by his armor, which you claim weigh thousand pounds?
It might be difficult to outlast much younger, fitter and faster opponent.

Arhael...


Go get some candy, you've earned it.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Arhael...


Go get some candy, you've earned it.



Had plenty already, perhaps, you could give me some more.

Originally posted by Arhael
Had plenty already, perhaps, you could give me some more.


I lol'd in real life.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Major Valerian will become more powerful than either of us.


Oh, stop it you.






But yeah you're right.

The truth shall be profile'd.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I lol'd in real life.
And I had plenty of candies for real. Cadbury Variety!

Originally posted by Arhael
And I had plenty of candies for real. Cadbury Variety!


Did you think I was talking about real candy, or sex?

Real candy, of course..............

Originally posted by Battlemaster
My point is, Luke did make it clear later on, with Gethzarion, and at Leia's dumb courtship with Han, that Vader had held back on him.

Vader had made it emotionally clear, both at the end of ESB, and during RotJ that he didn't want Luke to get hurt or die - and this came out bit by bit. Cutting off Luke's hand, bludgeoning him with metal objects, and watching him fall to his seeming death is your idea of Vader "not wanting Luke to get hurt or die"?

But anyway... I know Luke said all that. I also know that Yoda considered himself to be the most awesome foe the darkness had ever known. The character can think whatever the hell they want, I don't care--they're not omnipotent beings with full knowledge about everyone and everything else that ever existed. Ever.


I had this exact same conversation with TJ, I think, about... two years ago now. I wound up having to type out entire passages from the novel

Passages
"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him... Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge."

"His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."


To the author's discredit (poor James Kahn), he makes Luke think something extremely stupid and contradictory after that paragraph. He has him recollecting that, because Vader didn't kill him over the Death Star trench, or at Bespin, then there must be good in him. I don't know which movies he watched, but the shots Vader fired at Luke "I have you now!" weren't proverbial love taps. And enticing Luke to join him in the Dark Side so they could destroy the Emperor and rule together does not smack of fatherly love, or even good intentions. The whole "good" thing arose kinda out of nowhere.


Follow that up with:
"This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning."


Then his moment of doubt:
"Vader felt his intentions increasingly ambiguous in this conflict; the purity of his evil was being compromised. The boy was clever indeed - Vader knew he must move with extreme caution now.

Then his return to Darkness:
"Vader was incredulous. 'Sister? Sister!' he bellowed. 'Your feelings have now betrayed her, too ... Twins!' he roared triumphantly. 'Obi-Wan was wise to hide her, but now his failure is complete.' His smile was clear to Luke, through the mask, through the shadows, through all the realms of Darkness. 'If you will not turn to the Dark Side, perhaps she will.'"

This is the last line in this scene that details Vader's mentality--suffice to say, his last thoughts before being disarmed are of triumphant evilness. Holding back, my ass.




Now I have to admit, as much as I laud the Original Trilogy, the novelizations of the films aren't that great. This chapter in particular always felt sorta rushed and hurried along, and the sentiments of the two main characters jump around a lot; from Luke's clarity to megalomania to manipulation to clarity to doubt to rage to clarity. And Vader following a similar path. But what matters more to us, is Vader. He goes in to this fight confident of the "purity of is evil" and pontificates how, as much as he wants Luke alive for his own selfish purposes, he's perfectly willing to kill him if he won't cooperate. One insult from the kid actually prompts Vader to huck his lightsaber at him. Luke makes the very odd claim that Vader's failure to kill Luke due to Han Solo's intervention is actually a sign of Vader's goodness is really weird and misplaced. That makes Vader doubt for a moment (though he still considers it just a clever trick by Luke--as if spontaneous bouts of goodness are actually tactics). But he regains his confidence after Luke can't help thinking about and fearing for Leia, thus revealing an alternate choice to Luke, and possibly even leverage to use against Luke.

I'm not sure if you're just interpreting the novel differently than I am, but what I get from it is that Vader was genuinely beaten by an enraged Luke. No reservations or hesitations on Vader's part, just outright defeat. Which from a narrative standpoint, is a-OK. But I guess if you want to imagine a reconciliation between the EU and the movie material, then... no, there's nothing that'll help you. The EU is too inconsistent with the films.


Originally posted by ares834
Yeah it is. I'm curious though, what part of the duel is from Vader's perspective? The way I have always viewed the fight was that throughout most of the fight Vader was toying with Luke and trying to tip him towards darkness. But he pushes too hard, Luke snaps, and then Vader is defenseless against Luke's rage induced onslaught. No, as I just posted, Vader was genuinely worried and surprised at Luke's strength and power. He did what he could to defeat him, and in the end, had to resort to threats about Leia to try to demoralize him--which backfired. If anything, Palpatine saved Vader's ass at one point. Luke was musing on the possibility of supreme power (this was right after he kicked Vader down the stairs) and Palpatine encouraged him. This snapped Luke out of it, prompting him to "lower his defences".

Originally posted by Major Valerian
Real candy, of course..............

I'm just teasing. I think Arhael was trying to bother me for sex or something..

Anyway..

I know you're just teasing, that was the point of my post.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Cutting off Luke's hand, bludgeoning him with metal objects, and watching him fall to his seeming death is your idea of Vader "not wanting Luke to get hurt or die"?
But anyway... I know Luke said all that. I also know that Yoda considered himself to be the most awesome foe the darkness had ever known. The character can think whatever the hell they want, I don't care--they're not omnipotent beings with full knowledge about everyone and everything else that ever existed. Ever.
I had this exact same conversation with TJ, I think, about... two years ago now. I wound up having to type out entire passages from the novel
Passages
"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him... Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge."
"His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."
To the author's discredit (poor James Kahn), he makes Luke think something extremely stupid and contradictory after that paragraph. He has him recollecting that, because Vader didn't kill him over the Death Star trench, or at Bespin, then there must be good in him. I don't know which movies he watched, but the shots Vader fired at Luke "I have you now!" weren't proverbial love taps. And enticing Luke to join him in the Dark Side so they could destroy the Emperor and rule together does not smack of fatherly love, or even good intentions. The whole "good" thing arose kinda out of nowhere.
Follow that up with:
"This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning."
Then his moment of doubt:
"Vader felt his intentions increasingly ambiguous in this conflict; the purity of his evil was being compromised. The boy was clever indeed - Vader knew he must move with extreme caution now.
Then his return to Darkness:
"Vader was incredulous. 'Sister? Sister!' he bellowed. 'Your feelings have now betrayed her, too ... Twins!' he roared triumphantly. 'Obi-Wan was wise to hide her, but now his failure is complete.' His smile was clear to Luke, through the mask, through the shadows, through all the realms of Darkness. 'If you will not turn to the Dark Side, perhaps she will.'"
This is the last line in this scene that details Vader's mentality--suffice to say, his last thoughts before being disarmed are of triumphant evilness. Holding back, my ass.
Now I have to admit, as much as I laud the Original Trilogy, the novelizations of the films aren't that great. This chapter in particular always felt sorta rushed and hurried along, and the sentiments of the two main characters jump around a lot; from Luke's clarity to megalomania to manipulation to clarity to doubt to rage to clarity. And Vader following a similar path. But what matters more to us, is Vader. He goes in to this fight confident of the "purity of is evil" and pontificates how, as much as he wants Luke alive for his own selfish purposes, he's perfectly willing to kill him if he won't cooperate. One insult from the kid actually prompts Vader to huck his lightsaber at him. Luke makes the very odd claim that Vader's failure to kill Luke due to Han Solo's intervention is actually a sign of Vader's goodness is really weird and misplaced. That makes Vader doubt for a moment (though he still considers it just a clever trick by Luke--as if spontaneous bouts of goodness are actually tactics). But he regains his confidence after Luke can't help thinking about and fearing for Leia, thus revealing an alternate choice to Luke, and possibly even leverage to use against Luke.
I'm not sure if you're just interpreting the novel differently than I am, but what I get from it is that Vader was genuinely beaten by an enraged Luke. No reservations or hesitations on Vader's part, just outright defeat. Which from a narrative standpoint, is a-OK. But I guess if you want to imagine a reconciliation between the EU and the movie material, then... no, there's nothing that'll help you. The EU is too inconsistent with the films.
No, as I just posted, Vader was genuinely worried and surprised at Luke's strength and power. He did what he could to defeat him, and in the end, had to resort to threats about Leia to try to demoralize him--which backfired. If anything, Palpatine saved Vader's ass at one point. Luke was musing on the possibility of supreme power (this was right after he kicked Vader down the stairs) and Palpatine encouraged him. This snapped Luke out of it, prompting him to "lower his defences".



So the novelizations of the movies hold to higher Canon than the movies, themselves?

And you realize that during the events of ANH, that Vader didn't know Luke was responsible for the main assault on the Death Star?

And Vader wanting Luke to rule alongside him, as opposed to killing him off, is loving - albeit negative encouragement.

This thread went south very quickly.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This thread went south very quickly.

Not unless Arhael keeps hitting on me.

I c wut u did thar.

Intresting. Albeit incredibly stupid. Vader has no qualms about killing his son, but god help Palpatine if he ever attempts to kill Luke.


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I had this exact same conversation with TJ, I think, about... two years ago now. I wound up having to type out entire passages from the novel.

Just go to the Russian site and copy and paste. Far easier.

I recall reading the novelizations many years ago. They weren't stellar reads, but the bonus was they did include scenes that were later included in remastered versions, such as Han Solo talking to Jabba in ANH.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This thread went south very quickly. Anything to not talk about Mace Windu.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
So the novelizations of the movies hold to higher Canon than the movies, themselves?

And you realize that during the events of ANH, that Vader didn't know Luke was responsible for the main assault on the Death Star?

And Vader wanting Luke to rule alongside him, as opposed to killing him off, is loving - albeit negative encouragement. 1.) Only Lucas novelizaed stuff is G-canon. The rest is as C as the EU. What the C stuff offers is narrative and insight in to the characters minds that the films, by their very nature, don't.

2.) Of course I realize that. But the RotJ novel's author didn't seem to. Why did he include that line? A line that still wouldn't make sense even if Vader did know.

3.) Actually, it's not loving. Or good. Or merciful. It's cruel, opportunistic, manipulative, merciless, and evil. A quick death is much more endemic of "goodness" that what Vader had in mind.

Originally posted by ares834
Intresting. Albeit incredibly stupid. Vader has no qualms about killing his son, but god help Palpatine if he ever attempts to kill Luke.




Just go to the Russian site and copy and paste. Far easier. Yeah it's what I did this time.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I recall reading the novelizations many years ago. They weren't stellar reads, but the bonus was they did include scenes that were later included in remastered versions, such as Han Solo talking to Jabba in ANH.


True that.

I don't remember the Novelizations holding higher in Canon than the movies themselves, though.

That would mean all the stuff in the RotS novel is higher Canon than the movie..

Movies > novelizations. There's some very sloppy quotes from LFL that seem to equate the two, but it's generally agreed that ultimately only the movies and anything else -directly and unaltered- from GL is G-canon; anything that extrapolates on that or adds to it is C-canon.

But people around here have held the RotS novelization as G-canon simply to further certain viewpoints which I find are ridiculous.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Movies > novelizations. There's some very sloppy quotes from LFL that seem to equate the two, but it's generally agreed that ultimately only the movies and anything else -directly and unaltered- from GL is G-canon; anything that extrapolates on that or adds to it is C-canon.

But people around here have held the RotS novelization as G-canon simply to further certain viewpoints which I find are ridiculous. Most powerful foe EVAH!

Originally posted by Arhael
While this is part I am skeptical about but you actually made me reconsider it. I can't deny it as I know plenty of evidence myself about feeding on emotions of others. For example, Bane killed someone's children and fed on father's grief to heal some sort of illness (didn't read the book). It's just my perception of it is different.
For me power specifically improves TK feats and body strength and stamina.
While precision wholly depends on state of mind in general with no relevance to power.
And speed I discard as beautiful writing in novels. While some people can give lots of examples, where character moves "faster than eye can catch", I can give as many examples of powerful characters engaging in combat with non-Force users and sometimes even lose. For me speed is character's natural reaction he is born with and the fastest is the one, who can anticipate things faster/better with that natural reaction, than others.

In short I agree that Windu is better against darksiders but only in terms of having more physical strength and stamina. But not precision and speed, for them I give credit to his state of mind, the clarity and self-control that Vaapad gives Windu in general, which will work equally good against lightsiders. Ah. Yeah, it really does just come down to perception of it. I kind of look at power boosts on a case by case basis, like Palpatine would use his power for more force-shenanigans, Yoda would use it for wise insights into the future, Luke would just say "I win" and Mace would use it to increase his already impressive saber fighting skills. His precision increases because he falls deeper into Vapaad as he loops the power around. I think that the deeper into Vapaad he goes, the better he gets at saber fighting. But if he has to loop dark power around from his opponent to do his very best and strike faster than the eye can see, then I don't see it happening agaisnt a Light user. He is still formidable, but he isn't nigh unbeatable.

It was in Path of Destruction, Githany poisoned him and he was using that fear to delay the poison til he could get a healers house. Its a good series, I would recommend reading it.

Would it be fair to say that in ROTS Yoda was actually the most powerful Jedi ever? Cause he was, wasn't he?

At least he was last thing I knew. Haven't read prequel stuff in a while.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Movies > novelizations. There's some very sloppy quotes from LFL that seem to equate the two, but it's generally agreed that ultimately only the movies and anything else -directly and unaltered- from GL is G-canon; anything that extrapolates on that or adds to it is C-canon.

But people around here have held the RotS novelization as G-canon simply to further certain viewpoints which I find are ridiculous.


Hmm, so are the excerpts from the OT Novels really valid in this discussion, then?

Originally posted by Major Valerian
Would it be fair to say that in ROTS Yoda was actually the most powerful Jedi ever? Cause he was, wasn't he?

At least he was last thing I knew. Haven't read prequel stuff in a while.

Of his own era? Unquestionably.

But of other eras, you have people like Luke, Satele Shan, Nomi Sunrider, etc. who had some incredible showings. Yoda is likely one of the wisest and nicest of Jedi Grand Masters, but he may be eclipsed by some who have more potential.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Hmm, so are the excerpts from the OT Novels really valid in this discussion, then?

Since it's difficult to debate what, aside from placenames and character names, came directly from GL, I'd say much of it is questionable if it seems to directly contradict the movie or an interview with GL clarifying some aspect of the movie.

Or you know, just ignore them altogether because they're padding to make money for LFL.

You think Nomi is more impressive than Yoda?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Hmm, so are the excerpts from the OT Novels really valid in this discussion, then?

Yes, as long as they aren't contradicted.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Of his own era? Unquestionably.

But of other eras, you have people like Luke, Satele Shan, Nomi Sunrider, etc. who had some incredible showings. Yoda is likely one of the wisest and nicest of Jedi Grand Masters, but he may be eclipsed by some who have more potential.

I meant, including previous eras. Nomi Sunrider better than Yoda...?

Originally posted by ares834

Yes, as long as they aren't contradicted.


Then since the OT Novels and contrastingly the Movies seem iffy in regard to Vader's stance towards Luke, we'll have to go by later novels where Luke states that Vader held back on him.

Well, Nomi never reached her peak in media, she kind of fell off of the radar. But she picked up a lightsaber with no training and kicked ass, and mastered the Wall of Light technique by pretty much -hearing- about it from a Jedi Master. Her level of learning was insanely quick, so it makes you wonder what her midi-chlorian count was.

Plus she has the most powerful form of Battle Meditation we've seen so far.

I'm still hoping for that novel based on her.

As far as I've read (which has not been anything SW related in the past year), Yoda was the most powerful Jedi as far as ROTS.

I can believe it. 877 years is a LONG time.

That age is based on Luke being 23 in ROTJ where Yoda was 900. 900-13=877

Yeah, well, that little green sh*t was tough.

Is there even an exact age for Luke as of ROTJ? I saw something somewhere where his age was 20 as of ANH, ESB was 3 years later, and ROTJ was 6 months after ESB, tops.

Not sure how accurate it is, but it seems reasonable.

Originally posted by Pwned
Is there even an exact age for Luke as of ROTJ? I saw something somewhere where his age was 20 as of ANH, ESB was 3 years later, and ROTJ was 6 months after ESB, tops.

Not sure how accurate it is, but it seems reasonable. Really?

So I was 1 year off on his age. And less than a year off for the Battle of Endor. It was reasonable, I said, I wasn't to far off

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Hmm, so are the excerpts from the OT Novels really valid in this discussion, then?

Per the continuity guide, movies outrank novelizations and everything else {including the scripts}, though anything that comes from Lucas also qualifies as G-canon. Novelizations are C-canon with the possible exception of ROTS because Lucas line-edited the novelization personally. But when there is outright irreconcilable contradictions, we are bound to defer to the films.

ANH may be an exception as well, since I believe it was written by Lucas himself and ghost written by Alan Dean Foster.

Originally posted by dgeoro_scattere
Per the continuity guide, movies outrank novelizations and everything else {including the scripts}, though anything that comes from Lucas also qualifies as G-canon. Novelizations are C-canon with the possible exception of ROTS because Lucas line-edited the novelization personally. But when there is outright irreconcilable contradictions, we are bound to defer to the films.

ANH may be an exception as well, since I believe it was written by Lucas himself and ghost written by Alan Dean Foster.


Hmm. That's what I thought..

Originally posted by dgeoro_scattere
Per the continuity guide, movies outrank novelizations and everything else {including the scripts}, though anything that comes from Lucas also qualifies as G-canon. Novelizations are C-canon with the possible exception of ROTS because Lucas line-edited the novelization personally. But when there is outright irreconcilable contradictions, we are bound to defer to the films.

ANH may be an exception as well, since I believe it was written by Lucas himself and ghost written by Alan Dean Foster.

RotS still contradicts the final version of the films though. It's clearly established that the most recent incarnations of the film are the highest canon, so RotS' viability as a canon source is questionable.

Only the parts that are irreconcilable with the film.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Really?


Wookieepedia is not a reliable source.

Uh huh.

...and Mace would use it to increase his already impressive saber fighting skills. His precision increases because he falls deeper into Vapaad as he loops the power around. I think that the deeper into Vapaad he goes, the better he gets at saber fighting. But if he has to loop dark power around from his opponent to do his very best and strike faster than the eye can see, then I don't see it happening agaisnt a Light user. He is still formidable, but he isn't nigh unbeatable.

I don't see Windu looping actual power from opponents. From recent books I read, Scourge and Malgus are among best examples of those who feed on emotions of enemies. Yet, to Scourge it didn't help, when he faced other trained Sith. And Malgus, who is way above Scourge, when fighting angered Jedi (who's master he killed), couldn't draw on her anger to get more powerful and, if not intervention, would likely die.
Windu accepts fury of opponent, that's for sure. But there is no real evidence that he can draw actual power coming from opponents and redirect it. And even, if we assume he could, why restrict it only to dark power? Surely it could then be used to redirect power of other Jedi.
Also, there is no power coming out of opponents, unless they use offensive Force abilities. Users "draw" on the Force, power comes into them, not out.
In any case there is nothing specifically stating that Vaapad is better against darksiders. It is the state of mind achieved with Vaapad that gives user all the advantages, not the power drawn from others.

But don't get me wrong. I bet on Luke in this duel myself, it's just I am giving due respect to other characters.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
we'll have to go by later novels where Luke states that Vader held back on him.

With the Force. The novel to which you refer does not state anything about Vader holding back in Sabers.

So for that the best source would be the novel, the script and the movie itself. None of which show any signs of Vader holding back in Sabers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
With the Force. The novel to which you refer does not state anything about Vader holding back in Sabers.

So for that the best source would be the novel, the script and the movie itself. None of which show any signs of Vader holding back in Sabers.
I told the same thing but she offered me candy instead.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader's defenses were overpowered.

"Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive..."

Luke's rage attack was what Vader had planned, had hoped for. Vader could well have defended against it if he so chose to, but opted not to in hopes that Luke would fall to the dark side during his outburst. Vader WANTED Luke to succumb to anger and rage as these emotions lead to the dark side. I think the movie is clear in this regard.

Not so.
If, in a fight with your son, you restrain yourself and he overcomes you, then the force/power he applied was superior than what you applied. Therefore he still overpowered you. Nowhere does the definition require that maximum resistance be in play.





Of course it can. In this scenario with your son, if you restrain yourself and he doesn't, and he gets the better of you, your restraint may enable your son to put you into a position where you haven't any control left. In the case with Vader and Luke, Vader may not have been applying all his power and skill to harm Luke, even though the battle may have ended differently had he not. But once Vader's literally disarmed, weaponless, and on the floor with his son's blade hovering dangerously close to his throat, then he may no longer have the means to turn the tables even if he wished to. Luke can still be said to have overpowered Vader and Vader was still subdued.

Now, as I said earlier, if your son is like five years old and you fall to the ground intentionally and so forth in a grotesquely exaggerated display of defeat, then I'd agree with you. But there's a difference between intentionally letting your son put you on your ass (which the term wouldn't apply) and not attacking with the same level of intent your son is and being knocked down as a result (which the term would).

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
"Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive..."

Luke's rage attack was what Vader had planned, had hoped for. Vader could well have defended against it if he so chose to, but opted not to in hopes that Luke would fall to the dark side during his outburst. Vader WANTED Luke to succumb to anger and rage as these emotions lead to the dark side. I think the movie is clear in this regard.


This.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Vader could well have defended against it if he so chose to, but opted not to in hopes that Luke would fall to the dark side during his outburst.

Yes but he certainly didn't want Luke to kill him in the process and join the Emperor instead. If he could have kept up his defenses then he certainly should have. And I've not read anything that even implies he lost on purpose.


Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Vader WANTED Luke to succumb to anger and rage as these emotions lead to the dark side. I think the movie is clear in this regard.

Yes, whilst Luke did not even want to fight (for the most part).

The novel seems to have Luke genuinely overpowering Vader in Sabers.
Of course we know Vader never used the Force on him. If he did it would have been a Dooku choking Obi-Wan type thing, which is what Luke admits himself in Courtship.

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/anakin_and_luke_by_aelur-d350ix2.jpg


http://en.allexperts.com/q/Star-Wars-Phantom-1243/vader-luke.htm


Question
how come vader doesn't love luke?he is afterall his son,of a girl he loved more than anything in the galaxy.he hates him and want to turn hem to the dark side an bring hem before the emperor,but in ROTJ,when luke gifs himself up,vader and luke conversade:luke:*come with me(to the light side he meens) vader:*it is allready to late for me,my son*.why does he say that (for ME)when he wants to take luke to the dark side or he will die?and the last question(sorry:s),in the fight vader-luke in ROTJ the emperor says to luke when vader heres it*give in to your anger,take your fathers place next to my side*and when he onarmed his father*goood,now,kill him*why does vader not respond?I meen,thats not feare for him


Answer
Ok, first of all, in all the Saga I mostly see signs of Vader LOVING Luke, here are some of my reasons:

- In Episode 5 during his duel with Luke in Bespin, he had the opportunity to kill him at least 2 or 3 times. He did not because he cared for him, as his son, he wanted Luke to join him and "..rule the galaxy as father and son..".

- In Episode 6 he sees in Luke the Jedi he always wanted to be. Even Luke says to him "..I feel the good in you, the conflict...", he eventually saves Luke from a certain death knowing that would probably bring his own death. He even says that Luke saved him, saved him from the dark side, no matter he knows he is dying there, he is glad because he knows and feels Luke saved him.

Anakin loved Luke and the prove is that his love for Luke took him out of the dark side, and Luke's love for Anakin came directly for his mother, remember, when Luke is born and in Obi-Wan's arms, Padme says refering to Anakin "..there is still good him, there is..", so that was in Luke's heart forever, and he even says that to Vader in Episode 6 "..there is still good in you..". So, everything is connected perfectly, no matter how dark was Anakin's turn, the love between him and Padme eventually saved them all. I hope this answers your question. Thank You.


http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/luke_vader.jpg

Luke didn't kill him DP. Courtship definitely implies that he could have easily killed Luke had he wanted to. In other words, he LET him (as in majorly held back in order to draw Luke to the dark side) win. The Novel's depiction of the fight is irreconcilable to other newer material that portrays Vader as a nearly unstoppable badass. NEWS FLASH: By holding back and wanting Luke to use his rage in hopes of Turning to the dark side, Vader effectively LOST ON PURPOSE.

Those pictures are so cute haha.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Ok, first of all, in all the Saga I mostly see signs of Vader LOVING Luke, here are some of my reasons:

- In Episode 5 during his duel with Luke in Bespin, he had the opportunity to kill him at least 2 or 3 times. He did not because he cared for him, as his son, he wanted Luke to join him and "..rule the galaxy as father and son..". You must have had a pretty f*cked up childhood if that falls under your definition of "LOVING".

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Luke didn't kill him DP. Courtship definitely implies that he could have easily killed Luke had he wanted to. In other words, he LET him (as in majorly held back in order to draw Luke to the dark side) win. The Novel's depiction of the fight is irreconcilable to other newer material that portrays Vader as a nearly unstoppable badass. NEWS FLASH: By holding back and wanting Luke to use his rage in hopes of Turning to the dark side, Vader effectively LOST ON PURPOSE.





The script indicates that Luke was legitimately a challenge for Vader, especially when making use of the dark side. But the film makes it pretty obvious that Vader's heart isn't in killing Luke. If Vader wanted Luke dead, his command of the Force would have probably enabled him to do it. But otherwise, I'd say this is another example of the long running theme in Star Wars that an inferior opponent abusing the dark side can overcome an otherwise more skilled/powerful adversary (cf. Maul vs. Obi-Wan, Anakin vs. Dooku, etc.)

They're like the Twilight vampires that way.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Luke didn't kill him DP. Courtship definitely implies that he could have easily killed Luke had he wanted to. In other words, he LET him (as in majorly held back in order to draw Luke to the dark side) win. The Novel's depiction of the fight is irreconcilable to other newer material that portrays Vader as a nearly unstoppable badass. NEWS FLASH: By holding back and wanting Luke to use his rage in hopes of Turning to the dark side, Vader effectively LOST ON PURPOSE.

There is a big contradiction between what the Original script and novel showed (i.e. the intial intention) and what more recent material shows.

Of course we all agree, Vader could have easily taken Luke out had he used his Force Tk.

The question is did he fake losing the Saber portion of the fight? I would think with Luke giving into his rage, and Vader's mechanical parts really limiting his mobility, that it's not completely unreasonable to throw out the possibility that Luke actually was winning the Saber portion of the fight.

Even though Vader wouldn't have killed Luke (Although the "You are unwise to lower your defenses" line may be an argument against that), I also don't believe he would purposefully lose.

Simply because if Luke really turned to the Dark Side, he would have been capable of killing Vader in that winning position and joining the Emperor instead. Something that neither Sith Vader or Jedi Anakin would want.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
...I'd say this is another example of the long running theme in Star Wars that an inferior opponent abusing the dark side can overcome an otherwise more skilled/powerful adversary (cf. Maul vs. Obi-Wan, Anakin vs. Dooku, etc.)

I overcame your mother last night

She let me

A better one would have been, "thanks to me, your mother overcame last night," for it implies that, due to your sexual prowess, she enjoyed a particularly powerful orgasm.

Originally posted by Arhael

Windu accepts fury of opponent, that's for sure. But there is no real evidence that he can draw actual power coming from opponents and redirect it. And even, if we assume he could, why restrict it only to dark power? Surely it could then be used to redirect power of other Jedi.

The Jedi seem like they try and keep their power much more in them, while the Sith more broadcast it to overwhelm. Aggressive and active vs reactive and passive.

Originally posted by Q99
The Jedi seem like they try and keep their power much more in them, while the Sith more broadcast it to overwhelm. Aggressive and active vs reactive and passive.

Force users draw on the Force. The Force is all around and it goes into them, not out, unless they utilize offensive Force abilities. There is no power coming out. There is only the Force and it's all around.