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Ok I should have posted in the anime thread the first time :P

Who wins?

Superman.

Only character with a chance of beating Supes is SSJ4 Gogeta.

Really? Vegeta had planet busting power back in the Saiyan Saga. Fights standard at a much higher speed than Clark, and can obviously hurt him.

Originally posted by KingD19
Fights standard at a much higher speed than Clark No.

So the DBZ teleport fighting with arms and legs moving at blurs all the time isn't faster than Superman's standard brawling?

Considering Superman's standard brawling occurs in the spaces between nanoseconds time-wise, no, it isn't.

Superman is easily FTL.

DBZ characters are not a hundredth that fast.

Except Goku, who can be faster than that. vin

So he standardly fights that fast? All the time? Not at the speed of a normal person?

Originally posted by NemeBro


DBZ characters are not a hundredth that fast.

DBZ characters surpassed that after Cell. They might not be FTL but SJ44 Gogeta probably is very damn close.

Superman would brush off Vegetas attacks easily. Vegeta would get beat down like he was by:

Zarbon
Recoome
Frieza
18
13
Cell
Broly
Fat Buu
Kid Buu
Super 17
Omega Shenron

did i miss anyone?

Just about everyone you listed was in the top 5 in terms of power at the time.

Zarbon was Frieza's second in command. And Recoome was the 2nd Strongest in the Ginyu Force. So during the Namekian Saga Vegeta fought against Number 1,2, and 4.

18 was just as powerful as 17, and they were only outpowered by Cell. Keep in mind Vegeta became strong enough to beat a Level 2 Imperfect Cell, and that was after he had an androids power stacked on top of his own. He only lost because he was arrogant and let Cell get to his Perfect Form. No one could even touch him aside from Goku/Gohan(Rage Mode)

All the Saiyans had trouble with 13, 14, and 15.

Broly? Really? You're using Broly? The guy who wtfsh*tstomped just about everyone before Goku saved the day?

Fat Buu and Kid Buu were both extremely powerful and outclassed just about everyone. It took SSJ3 Goku and Gotenks to even contend with them.

Same deal with Super 17. Goku had to get 18's help and use a super move just to take him down.

And Omega Shenron was literally the most powerful villain in DBZ and DBGT.

That's like bringing up how Superman got killed by Doomsday and hurt by Darkseid and had trouble with Shaggy Man, etc...

i wasnt saying that Vegeta got hurt by nobodies just pointing out he has a habit of running into fights and getting his arse whipped

he also got beat down by Bojacks henchman if i remember correctly

DBZ can only defeat DCAU Superman. A universal fusion couldn't help them against a comic Supes.

Originally posted by KingD19
So the DBZ teleport fighting with arms and legs moving at blurs all the time isn't faster than Superman's standard brawling?
Human boxers can move their arms to appear as near blurs to us.

All it takes is one fusion to make someone near any Superman's level.

It really... really wouldn't.

Originally posted by BloodRain
DBZ can only defeat DCAU Superman. A universal fusion couldn't help them against a comic Supes.


Human boxers can move their arms to appear as near blurs to us.

Yeah, but it's not completely constant and they're blinking in and out of sight while doing it. You seriously can't be comparing boxers against Saiyan Saga and above fighters.

Nope, but I can compare blurs to blurs.

Blurs don't mean much.

Superman is practically undestructable, unless Vegeta finds kryptonite he is gonna be pulverized.

Any Vegeta besides the Vegeta from the first arc will lose.

Little known fact: The fur of the Saiyan tail contains small traces of brown kryptonite, which has the notable effect of giving Kryptonians an absolutely horrible case of the shits.

Lol really?!

Of course not, are you ****ing serious?

Originally posted by Toshi
DBZ characters surpassed that after Cell. Prove it.

Also, lol at you thinking any fusion is near "any" Superman's level.

I always struggled kinda with this about DBZ. Vegeta was supposedly a planet buster in his first appearance at a power level of 18000. Frieza in his first form was around 534000. By the end of his career, Vegeta was so far above anything Frieza could dream of it was ridiculous. But the plaent was never really in any danger from his attacks except fo the monster ones. Idk. Just doesn't make sense.

^ I see it as PIS somewhat, but not completely. In other words - I have no clue. But if we just compare high-end feats, I think DBZ characters can compete, especially when it comes to energy output.

He never tried to destroy the planet after that. -shrug-

i still really like this comment

The strogest incarnation of Goku threw a Kamehameha at the sun and didn't destroy the sun, Superman should be in no trouble against this second stringer

Superman

Originally posted by NemeBro
No.
http://www.freewebs.com/submitted_fics/v+g.JPG

Change your mind now?

hes stealing Gokus energy! Yeah thats what hes doing!

Originally posted by KingD19
Yeah, but it's not completely constant and they're blinking in and out of sight while doing it. .

That's just a special effect.

what if Vegeta punches superman in the stomach with a fist full of kryptonite hmmmm I wonder how big the whole in supermans stomach would be.

I don't think there would be any hole, to be honest.

Are you serious? Vegeta would destroy Superman by just looking at him.

The only Superman that would have a chance would be the pre-reboot version, but that's as canon as ****ing GT and even more inconsistent.

So what do you actually know of either character?

I'd wager very little.

Originally posted by NemeBro
So what do you actually know of either character?

I'd wager very little.
Where the **** did you learn that fallacy, kindergarten?

I don't think you know what a fallacy is.

I stated that I assumed that you know very little of either character based on your statement, yes, but I also gave you a fair chance of explaining what you know of both and what led you to believe Vegeta could kill Superman by looking at him. You haven't, which leads me to assume that you can't. Sorry princess, but until you adequately explain your rationale for your statement, I can't take your post seriously.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I don't think you know what a fallacy is.
A mistaken belief, esp. one based on unsound argument.

Originally posted by NemeBro I stated that I assumed that you know very little of either character based on your statement, yes,
Which has nothing to do with the argument.

Originally posted by NemeBro but I also gave you a fair chance of explaining what you know of both and what led you to believe Vegeta could kill Superman by looking at him.
It's called Ki-Oh! It's what Goku used to make Vegeta's grace.

Originally posted by NemeBro You haven't, which leads me to assume that you can't. Sorry princess, but until you adequately explain your rationale for your statement, I can't take your post seriously.
Fine. Vegeta can destroy planets, superman gets knocked out by comets the size of cars.

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
A mistaken belief, esp. one based on unsound argument.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=9&gs_id=1k&xhr=t&q=fallacy+definition&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=fallacy+d&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=ce19979f0aca28f&biw=1011&bih=691

Quoting literally the first result when typing in "fallacy definition" in google ftw?



In a meta-sense it does.



I have to confess I am not sure what you just said.



What car-sized comet are you referring to?

Also, Superman has survived two planets smashing into eachother and fusing, him being between them both and taking the brunt of the force. He has taken a blast equivelant to IIRC 52 supernovas. He's pushed planets physically. He is many times faster than light, Goku himself in movement is somewhere above mach 1,000, and in reaction-time less than mach 29,000 (A feat from Super Buu with Gohan absorbed, much stronger than Goku).

... If I really wanted to be an ass, I could show you Goku needing to go SSJ to lift 40 tons.

Originally posted by NemeBro
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=9&gs_id=1k&xhr=t&q=fallacy+definition&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=fallacy+d&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=ce19979f0aca28f&biw=1011&bih=691

Quoting literally the first result when typing in "fallacy definition" in google ftw?
No shit? It proved you wrong though.

Originally posted by NemeBro In a meta-sense it does.
You just can't accept that you're wrong, can you?

Originally posted by NemeBro I have to confess I am not sure what you just said.
That's because you haven't read the manga.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Kiai

Originally posted by NemeBro What car-sized comet are you referring to?
Read JLA and you'll know... And here you blame me for lacking knowledge. Hypocrite.

Originally posted by NemeBro Also, Superman has survived two planets smashing into eachother and fusing,
Pre-reboot = Noncanon.

Originally posted by NemeBro He has taken a blast equivelant to IIRC 52 supernovas.
Noncanon.

Originally posted by NemeBro He's pushed planets physically.
Noncanon.

Originally posted by NemeBro He is many times faster than light,
You sure like using noncanon feats, don't you?

Ah, I was under the impression that this was pre-Flashpoint Superman, since for a long while, even after the reboot, that Superman was the default used.

Oh, and you spelled "Kiai" wrong before, simpleton.

And no, you using google frankly just implies to me that you were incapable of defining it based on your own knowledge, so had to resort to looking it up. How weak.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Ah, I was under the impression that this was pre-Flashpoint Superman,
Were you also under the impression that we used DBGT, or godforbid DBM?

Originally posted by NemeBro Oh, and you spelled "Kiai" wrong before, simpleton.
That's the French translation, idiot. Besides I also gave an example of where it was used. So your ignorance is no excuse.

Originally posted by NemeBro And no, you using google frankly just implies to me that you were incapable of defining it based on your own knowledge, so had to resort to looking it up. How weak.
Or it means that I'm not going to deal with your shit nitpicking, so I quoted something I could reference. GTFO.

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
Were you also under the impression that we used DBGT, or godforbid DBM?

No, but then the context is rather different.



I don't give a shit about the French translation.

Also, "make Vegeta's grace"? What the **** is that supposed to mean?

Your competence at construction a legible sentence is frankly lacking, as are most things regarding you.



No, you were simply ignorant.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No, but then the context is rather different.
No. Both are noncanon.

Originally posted by NemeBro Also, "make Vegeta's grace"? What the **** is that supposed to mean?
Where on the keyboard is the key C located? I meant grave, idiot.


Originally posted by NemeBro No, you were simply ignorant.
No I wasn't.

Pre-Flashpoint Superman is simply a different incarnation, not strictly noncanon.

Why would I assume you typoed? Grace is actually a word.

But you were.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Pre-Flashpoint Superman is simply a different incarnation, not strictly noncanon.
No it isn't. Nothing before the reboot ever happen. It's not part of canon.

Originally posted by NemeBro Why would I assume you typoed? Grace is actually a word.
Gee I don't know MAYBE BECAUSE THE WORD DIDN'T FIT THE SENTENCE?

Originally posted by NemeBro But you were.
You're going to resort to these kid's tactics?

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
No it isn't. Nothing before the reboot ever happen. It's not part of canon.

Yes it is. IIRC Flash and possibly Batman can even still remember the world pre-flashpoint. Even then I believe that DC has said that the events before the reboot aren't invalid (because that would piss a lot of people off). Also theres the fact that Pandora was aware of the reboot.

Any comic version is faster, tougher and more powerful than anyone in DB. It doesn't really matter which one it is.

Vegeta, or any DBZ character, gets his head melted off his shoulders by Clark.

What version of Superman exists on DBZ peak versions of Saiyans?

An early Vegeta shattered plantoids with the flick of his wrist.

Animated Superman showed impressive speed melee fighting in Public Enemies against Darkseid.

And this is anime feats only, not comic. Sorry if I'm out of the loop with Supes feats but even in his most recent film Superman vs the Elite, Supes is in trouble.

^ Public Enemies? Superman never fought Darkseid in PE. You mean Apocalypse right?

Also, Superman from Justice League: Doom is FTL.

I see how it is lets use a Superman who barely has any feats and has existed for little more than a year.

Sounds fair

He'd still WTFpwn Vegeta though. He's Superman.

If only animated Supermen are available who would be the best anyways? I know there was an adaption of All-Star Superman.

The Superman from Superman vs The Elite was very scary.

Originally posted by Bentley
If only animated Supermen are available who would be the best anyways? I know there was an adaption of All-Star Superman.

Haven't seen All-Star Superman, but if he was as powerful as the comic version was, then he'd likely be the most powerful.

Otherwise, Justice League: Doom Superman in all likelihood is the best. He was at least 8 times faster than Light.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Haven't seen All-Star Superman, but if he was as powerful as the comic version was, then he'd likely be the most powerful.

Otherwise, Justice League: Doom Superman in all likelihood is the best. He was at least 8 times faster than Light.

I agree.

To be fair though, JL: D Superman was a tool. Dunno if it was PIS or CIS or whatever that made him stupid enough to hold back so severely.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
To be fair though, JL: D Superman was a tool. Dunno if it was PIS or CIS or whatever that made him stupid enough to hold back so severely.

Both.

Superman in Superman vs The Elite makes up for his stupidity in JL: Doom. Have you seen it?

Prolly.

Not yet. Downloaded it though. Will watch soon. If it's good, I'll buy it.

Originally posted by the ninjak
An early Vegeta shattered plantoids with the flick of his wrist. Noncanon. Anime filler.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Noncanon. Anime filler.


It happened in the show!

Which isn't canon.

The manga is canon.

This is the Anime vs Forum. So Vegeta's anime feats are his anime feats?

Regardless of whether the Manga canon disregarded it or not?

Seems dodgy to me. Or does the fact that the Anime Vs Forum exists within the Anime/Manga section mean such a rule is enforced????

Dbz characters have ridiculous energy output. Veget's a hell of a warrior but unfortunately his physical stats are far far below superman's. He'd get beat to sleep fairly quickly.

Whats Supes

Originally posted by the ninjak
This is the Anime vs Forum. So Vegeta's anime feats are his anime feats?

Regardless of whether the Manga canon disregarded it or not?

Seems dodgy to me. Or does the fact that the Anime Vs Forum exists within the Anime/Manga section mean such a rule is enforced????
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f104/t504517.html
Anime/Manga VS, the forum just isn't labeled as such.

Originally posted by the ninjak
This is the Anime vs Forum. So Vegeta's anime feats are his anime feats?

Regardless of whether the Manga canon disregarded it or not?

Seems dodgy to me. Or does the fact that the Anime Vs Forum exists within the Anime/Manga section mean such a rule is enforced????

The Manga is the original source material of the Series, as such, the filler events were not made by the Mangaka, as such, they were not made with much thought towards the actual storyline.

Plus it gets way too confusing if you include a characters filler feats

If there is an original source rule regarding canon for each character, New Earth Superman destroys Vegeta.

I guess you could get Golden Age Superman and he'd get stomped.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Whats Supes


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f104/t504517.html
Anime/Manga VS, the forum just isn't labeled as such.

Fair enough.

I always take things literally. Well if Manga feats overrule Anime, also fair enough.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Whats Supes
Hm.

So what is Superman's greatest heat vision feat?

Hmmm...He has warmed up an entire planet with it. His heat vision has been calculated to be hotter than a star. I think his heat vision has deflected Darkseid's Omega Beams. I recall Superman oneshotting a Doomsday army with it. Hard to say whats his best HV feat.

Black hair Vegeta stomps 10/10. You can add Thor to this and it would still be a stomp. Stronger, faster, more durable, and outright more powerful.

@zack...

Superman was amped when he warmed up a Sun.

By the way, that ain't crap compared to Goku. It was stated on panel that Goku could destroy 13 planets with 1 blast.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Hmmm...He has warmed up an entire planet with it. His heat vision has been calculated to be hotter than a star. I think his heat vision has deflected Darkseid's Omega Beams. I recall Superman oneshotting a Doomsday army with it. Hard to say whats his best HV feat.

It's deflected it with it more than once iirc.

He also one-shot Despero with it once too.

Originally posted by carver9
Black hair Vegeta stomps 10/10. You can add Thor to this and it would still be a stomp. Stronger, faster, more durable, and outright more powerful.

@zack...

Superman was amped when he warmed up a Sun.

By the way, that ain't crap compared to Goku. It was stated on panel that Goku could destroy 13 planets with 1 blast.

Even your trolling is bad. Warmed up a sun? Seriously?

Originally posted by -Pr-
It's deflected it with it more than once iirc.

He also one-shot Despero with it once too.



Even your trolling is bad. Warmed up a sun? Seriously?

Lol...you knew what I meant.

Originally posted by carver9
Stronger

The single best (Done by Buutenks) strength-related feat in Dragonball canon is physically knocking back a blast so hard it flew into Earth and out the other side. A roughly continental level strength feat. Not bad at all.

Thor and Superman have planetary strength feats.

No.



For Thor it depends on what day of the week it is and whether or not he is fighting Wolverine. Thor's speed varies wildly. But Superman, who has multiple FTL feats? lolno. Name Vegeta's speed feat which makes him faster than Superman.

But really, I am talking to the same, shall we say, "challenged person" who believed Roshi catching machine-gun bullets was a mach 1,000 feat.



Being smashed between two planets, surviving equivelant power of 52 supernovas, been in between two black holes...

No.



In terms of energy output maybe.



Provide the scan.

@Nemebro...

Everything isn't based off of lifting fts...once you learn this the better off you would be.

Flying through space doesn't equal combat speed. Goku combat speed is far greater imo. This was proven when King Ki was able to track Goku ship through space when he was flying to planet Namek. Goku ship flew from one solar system to another in 6 days, far faster than light and King Ki was able to track it and easily. This same Ki used the same technique he used to track Goku ship during the Frieza and Goku fight but they was moving so fast that he was unable to keep up with them. This isn't the only instance proving Goku is faster than light. Goku outpacing solar energy and there are other instances as well.

What planetary strength fts does Thor and Supes have?

WTF? Thor would get blitzed like hell from any DBZ fighter and you overhyping him doesn't change this. Even the most hardcore Thor fans doesn't believe Thor can counter a blitz from Goku.

Lol...Goku and Frieza were near equals during their fight in all categories and Frieza withstood the Kamehameha times 20. Let's not forget what the kameha times 1 was capable of...it had enough force to destroy earth...do the math. This doesn't even change the fact that Roshi had enough power to shed a moon but Roshi best attack wouldn't even register to someone like Nappa or Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga had enough power to shed Earth but his energy output wouldn't even tickle a Super Saiyan let alone the black hair Goku that fought Frieza. Average showings, Goku is FAR more powerful, faster, more durable, and stronger than Superman...you throwing off high fts isn't aiding or changing this.

You should know the instance where Babidi said Goku had this type of energy output.

Originally posted by carver9
@Nemebro...

Everything isn't based off of lifting fts...once you learn this the better off you would be.

Flying through space doesn't equal combat speed. Goku combat speed is far greater imo. This was proven when King Ki was able to track Goku ship through space when he was flying to planet Namek. Goku ship flew from one solar system to another in 6 days, far faster than light and King Ki was able to track it and easily. This same Ki used the same technique he used to track Goku ship during the Frieza and Goku fight but they was moving so fast that he was unable to keep up with them. This isn't the only instance proving Goku is faster than light. Goku outpacing solar energy and there are other instances as well.

What planetary strength fts does Thor and Supes have?

WTF? Thor would get blitzed like hell from any DBZ fighter and you overhyping him doesn't change this. Even the most hardcore Thor fans doesn't believe Thor can counter a blitz from Goku.

Lol...Goku and Frieza were near equals during their fight in all categories and Frieza withstood the Kamehameha times 20. Let's not forget what the kameha times 1 was capable of...it had enough force to destroy earth...do the math. This doesn't even change the fact that Roshi had enough power to shed a moon but Roshi best attack wouldn't even register to someone like Nappa or Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga had enough power to shed Earth but his energy output wouldn't even tickle a Super Saiyan let alone the black hair Goku that fought Frieza. Average showings, Goku is FAR more powerful, faster, more durable, and stronger than Superman...you throwing off high fts isn't aiding or changing this.

You should know the instance where Babidi said Goku had this type of energy output.

Going from one star system to another in the space of a week might be faster than light, but how much faster? "Far" faster, it could very well not be.

You need distance, Carver.

lol, what planetary strength feat does Superman have? Pulling the Earth with Hal Jordan, for one. Warworld, for another.

Unless you're just arguing post reboot.

Your lowballing is getting silly at this point.

Smallville Clark, the second weakest of any Superman. Then theres turning some large planet sized gear in the comics and shattering planets. Superman has planatary level punches, Goku has mountain level punches.

Roshi's Moon feat is an outliner, and Goku has never shown his base Wave to destroy the Earth pre-freeza saga. He needed 3x to match Vegeta's blast which, by the manga, isnt a planet /buster/. That and Vegeta couldn't survive if the planet was destroyed. The first Planet Busting came from Freeza's chain reaction. So its only post-Freeza saga that characters become planetary.



And its SS1 Goku that has 3,000 kiri , which means he's below the force needed to down Superman's supernova feat.

The min force needed to destroy the Earth x50 = Neptune
Neptune x200 = Jupiter
x1,000 = min Stella level
x60 = our Sun
x250 = a Supernova
x52 = Superman's durability.

The greatest feat in all of DB is Buu's feat which someone claced to Jupiter-Jupiterx50 in destruction. Far from the smallest star, further from our Sun and not even close to the force of a supernova. Let alone 52 of them.

@Bloodrain...

What are you talking about? It was stated on panel that Vegeta blast during the Saiyan Saga had enough power to shed Earth. Goku Kamehameha countered this blast.

I'm not even going to argue against the planetary strength comment because its a lie.

So now you are taking Roshi moon busting ft away from him. Ok, Piccolo destroyed a moon but his blast during that time wouldn't even tickle Frieza.

I know Vegeta wouldn't survive if the planet was destroyed due to lack of air. If the planet buster came from Saiyan Saga Goku, Vegeta would tank it with ease which is my point.

Lol...the only reason, ONLY reason Frieza was unable to destroy Namek with a single blast was because the spirit bomb depleted him of his power...he even states this after reappearing. Frieza was weakened. What we do know is that Frieza took out planet Vegeta at .025% of his power with his index finger and Planet Vegeta was twice the size of Earth. Just like it was stated on panel by true power level readers, Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga was dishing out enough energy to destroy Earth and Goku stopped it with a Kamehameha times 3 blast. Frieza TANKED the kamehameha times 20 without a scratch.

Lol at you deciding a fight off of high showings. If you truly believe that it takes a Supernova to stop Superman then you are smoking some hard stuff. I have seen him dropped by much less. Average portrayals of these characters, Goku stomps, high end ft portrayals of these characters, Hulk could kill Galactus with a single punch. Learn the difference please.

The greatest ft in DBZ is knowing they can shed a solar system with a mere blast, the lowest ft is ignoring this.

Love smallville...nice ft. Do you know where I can download the episodes?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Going from one star system to another in the space of a week might be faster than light, but how much faster? "Far" faster, it could very well not be.

You need distance, Carver.

lol, what planetary strength feat does Superman have? Pulling the Earth with Hal Jordan, for one. Warworld, for another.

Unless you're just arguing post reboot.

Your lowballing is getting silly at this point.

The flight wad stated as being a couple of thousand light years away and by the way, this was Goku at his weakest.

I know of Supermans fts, I want to see if they know. I don't like debating against people that knows nothing of the characters they are debating for. Thanks for messing that up.

Originally posted by carver9
The flight wad stated as being a couple of thousand light years away and by the way, this was Goku at his weakest.

I know of Supermans fts, I want to see if they know. I don't like debating against people that knows nothing of the characters they are debating for. Thanks for messing that up.

Then why didn't you just say that in the first place?

lol, no you don't. Cheeky beggar.

@Carver:
"I'll turn you turn you to ashes -- along with !" "Prepare to die with this world you love!". Said by a raging Vegeta who can't survive an exploding planet and can't survive in space, so its highly unlikely it was a planet buster. To the below point; an planet exploding was a threat to 100% Freeza and SSGoku. I kinda doubt Vegeta > them.

..Superman having planetary strength is a lie or Goku not having it is the lie?

Moon < Planet. Point? He never states the Bomb weakened him. Either way this makes him, along with SSGoku at that time, a potential planet buster when at full power. Planet Vegeta's explosion wasnt shown on panel thus we don't know if it was another chain reaction feat. And I read through the fight, didn't see anyone state the planet would be destroyed.

Are you honestly going to use Supes low-end feats against Goku's high-end feats? So the black hole, supernovas and absorbing the energy that was going to destroy half the galaxy means nothing? Its only when a character does a single thing thats outside their feats, eg Roshi destroying the moon when stronger characters are well below that level, that it becomes an outliner feat.
If not we have Oozaru Vegeta having his tail cut off by a /normal/ katana wielded by a guy who is weaker than kid Goku. Theres also base Goku struggling to lift 40 tons of seeing Freeza throwing rocks at him to be a threat. On the other hand in all of DB we only have /one/ instance on panel where a character destroys a planet in a blast and not from a chain reaction; Buu. So by your view the average Ki beam are really just mountain busters at best,

So you can disregard Superman's feats, but you may as well ignore DB's single planet feat as well. And no.. thats hyperbole. You're taking a statement from a cocky character in a verse that has never 'sensed' a solar system ki level where the end results (aka Gohan's stronger blast) did not do as he said it would. Hyperbole. Also to think Cell is a star system buster while Buu saga SS1Goku (who is stronger than Cell) is only at a large planet level is ridiculous.


Dunno, somwhere on the net. I'm just catching the TV ones waiting to get to this damn ep. >(

Originally posted by BloodRain
@Carver:
"I'll turn you turn you to ashes -- along with !" "Prepare to die with this world you love!". Said by a raging Vegeta who can't survive an exploding planet and can't survive in space, so its highly unlikely it was a planet buster. To the below point; an planet exploding was a threat to 100% Freeza and SSGoku. I kinda doubt Vegeta > them.

..Superman having planetary strength is a lie or Goku not having it is the lie?

Moon < Planet. Point? He never states the Bomb weakened him. Either way this makes him, along with SSGoku at that time, a potential planet buster when at full power. Planet Vegeta's explosion wasnt shown on panel thus we don't know if it was another chain reaction feat. And I read through the fight, didn't see anyone state the planet would be destroyed.

Are you honestly going to use Supes low-end feats against Goku's high-end feats? So the black hole, supernovas and absorbing the energy that was going to destroy half the galaxy means nothing? Its only when a character does a single thing thats outside their feats, eg Roshi destroying the moon when stronger characters are well below that level, that it becomes an outliner feat.
If not we have Oozaru Vegeta having his tail cut off by a /normal/ katana wielded by a guy who is weaker than kid Goku. Theres also base Goku struggling to lift 40 tons of seeing Freeza throwing rocks at him to be a threat. On the other hand in all of DB we only have /one/ instance on panel where a character destroys a planet in a blast and not from a chain reaction; Buu. So by your view the average Ki beam are really just mountain busters at best,

So you can disregard Superman's feats, but you may as well ignore DB's single planet feat as well. And no.. thats hyperbole. You're taking a statement from a cocky character in a verse that has never 'sensed' a solar system ki level where the end results (aka Gohan's stronger blast) did not do as he said it would. Hyperbole. Also to think Cell is a star system buster while Buu saga SS1Goku (who is stronger than Cell) is only at a large planet level is ridiculous.


Dunno, somwhere on the net. I'm just catching the TV ones waiting to get to this damn ep. >(

Carver likes to lowball...a lot.

Eh, no. Flashpoint, the Brightest Night/Blackest Day, and the Killing Joke are the only canon books confirmed by the authors.

See this isn't a revamp like Crisis on Infinite Earths, Final Crisis and Crisis between your mother's legs. The only Superman to ever have existed in the DCU is the one that appeared in the new Action Comics #1, that's also why they restarted all titles with #1.

Goku creams Superman's fudge and doesn't even cuddle with him afterwards.

lol wtf

Originally posted by Zack Fair
lol wtf
My mistake, Vegeta skull-****s Superman in his carved out eye socket.

Are there some quotes or sources we could see that says that Flash literally wiped out his entire universe from continuity and history? Why do you think that new DCnU is the only canon source now?

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
Eh, no. Flashpoint, the Brightest Night/Blackest Day, and the Killing Joke are the only canon books confirmed by the authors.

See this isn't a revamp like Crisis on Infinite Earths, Final Crisis and Crisis between your mother's legs. The only Superman to ever have existed in the DCU is the one that appeared in the new Action Comics #1, that's also why they restarted all titles with #1.

Goku creams Superman's fudge and doesn't even cuddle with him afterwards.

Morrison's Batman is canon too. Several characters have had their history left almost completely intact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Are there some quotes or sources we could see that says that Flash literally wiped out his entire universe from continuity and history? Why do you think that new DCnU is the only canon source now?
Bob Harras have already confirmed it. There's nothing to argue.

Originally posted by Effect Veiler
Bob Harras have already confirmed it. There's nothing to argue.

You mean here, where he said that much of DC's history would be intact?

No, when he said that only Flashpoint, BD/BL, and the Batman story would be considered canon.

If you want to prove that Superman and the shitstain is canon you'll have to post proof for that.

It is you after all who want to use feats like Superman tea-bagging a black hole, so prove that it's canon. Don't worry, I'll wait.

Barry Allen is aware of the previous universe and is the same person from that universe. Therefore the events from that universe still happened and weren't wiped from the timeline.

Gotta love how you want to pit Vegeta against a featless Superman. Sure shows how much faith you have in Vegetable

@Bloodrain...

Do you truly believe Superman villains walk around with super nova punches when they draw blood from Superman or ko him? This is all common sense. You using space cheese FTs doesn't take away from the fact that Goku punching power and blast would drop Superman. You bringing up black holes doesn't change the fact that Kallabak or Despero has koed or challenged him on a consistent basis.

You bringing up Super Novas doesn't change the fact that Doctor Light has koed him with a blast along with other things as well. ON AVERAGE, non space cheese related fts, Superman isnt challenging Goku. You hiding from his battles, resorting to fts that doesn't partake in a battle between the two doesn't change this. Black hair Goku wins 10/10.

By the way, Vegeta had planetary power during the Saiyan Saga.

What's Vegeta's best punching feat?

@Bentley:
This is the best physical attack from base Goku in the Freeza saga, looks like a city block or two worth of damage. The best physical feat in all of DB is this -> strike crash scale. Someone did a rough calc and put it at City busting force, less if the ki ball was explosive.

SS3 Gotenks has City busting strength, and he can effortlessly dominate the strongest form of Vegeta.


On the other hand, Superman pushes up a small planet with one hand behind his back.



@Carver:

Planetary power = Planet busting, min planet shattering, planet razing, life wiping = Anything between planet busting force and continental force(like that of a 10km meteor). Be more specific on which one you mean. A scan too, as I've been through the whole fight and nothing confirms anything above razing the planet.

I don't recall any character being able to one-shot Supes with a single punch. IIRC its after a battle with characters with Planet+ strength that he gets KO'd. For instance; you believe that Cell and up have star system blasts, but they get hurt from punches, so you think DB characters have star system punches? Being hurt and being destroyed/killed aren't the same thing. To kill Superman you'll still need to rack up a Star system amount of damage.
And this means you'll need rounds after rounds of the strongest DB blasts to at the very best knock him out.

We're using average Superman and DB? Means we gotta get rid of Clark's nova, black hole and that galactic energy absorption feats and lock him on the average planetary level? Ok, this also means we're getting rid of the moon busting from Piccolo and the one planet busting feat in DB from Buu seeing as top tiers are being beaten down with, at best, city busting physical attacks mountain level blasts.

Cool. So a Planet level Superman vs City/Mountain level DB cast based on these 'average' feats you'd prefer to use.

Originally posted by Bentley
What's Vegeta's best punching feat?


Just my opinion. Goku was able to bruise someone who survived a planet explosion while completely weakened, which is Freeza. Vegeta in Majin Buu saga is most likely much stronger than Freeza saga Goku. Sorry if there's something I missed here. I didn't read the entire post in this thread.

Originally posted by BloodRain
On the other hand, Superman pushes up a small planet with one hand behind his back. I'll get to replying to carver later sometime, but I should point out that that is All Star Superman.

Ah...








..that means thats not the normal Superman, right?

....... Yes, that's what it means.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Ah...








..that means thats not the normal Superman, right?

I believe it is a Superman taken before the Crisis of Infinite Earths. It can be seen in canon in some perspectives but it is definitely a non-canon Superman.

Allstar Superman is related to Superman Prime. The relation is not quite clear but it could be a Hypertime connection.

@Bloodrain...

I can tell you don't read much Superman ...if any and you base your judgment of the character based on things you've seen spread across the internet. It's crazy that you really believe a Super Nova is the only thing capable of killing him when he died by much less and has been koed by much less.

Example...

Konvikt doesn't have a single lifting ft that puts him at planetary strength, let alone, city level, mountain level, etc, etc...but he was able to do this to Superman with a single punch.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13851254
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13851255
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13851258

I can bring up Titus one shotting him but what's the point since I know it doesn't take a solar system, moon busting, city destroying punch to take him out.

I can bring up Kalibak taking him out but again, what's the point since I know Kalibak can't destroy a planet, let alone generate the force of a freaking super nova.

You are relying too much on space cheese fts. Look at the fights he is in and get a average of what it takes to drop each character. Fts are nice at times but you have to look at everything as a hole.

Another example...Gladiator. He is a guy that has punched planets to dust, ripped black holes in apart with his bare hands, cracked moons with his fist...ripped a star in half...

http://i.imgur.com/gFA0u.jpg

But yet he is getting destroyed by Colossonaut and Namor who doesnt have a single ft comparable to what Gladiator has done on panel or things that people have seen him do.

http://i.imgur.com/82Eqg.jpg

Bloodrain...you are better than this...I know you are. Looking st fights and power from both, Goku completely annihilates him.

@Carver: Haha.. I don't read /any/ comics man. If this Kon guy can tangle with Superman, powerscaling says his strength is at the right level.

A few Star system feats, tons of feats from fighting people with planet+ strength, and a few feats from characters that may or may not have strength at Superman's level. Thats not only ignoring the high-end feats, but also the constant planatary ones in favour of low-end feats from characters whose strength is likely near Superman's.


But as said, to not be bias you'll have to use averages from DB too. We've see the kind of attacks that put them down; Namek's destruction, hitting Cell with a blast, Cell's suicide bomb, Kid Buu blowing up the planet. Major events all showing that the strongest character are being killed by things at a planet busting level. (And unlike the random ones you chose for Superman, these ones are solid for being major plot elements.)

So we know they're not taking these planet busting attacks, what can they take on average? That would be this. This is the strongest physical feat in DB by SS3Gotenks. And as you know the only characters stronger than him are MGohan, Buutenks/Buuhan and SSVegito. Meaning that that level of strength, which is only Multi-city block in terms of damage, is able to routinely damage high tiers on a large and deadly scale. SSVegito would physically be above this at a Town leveled.


Superman constantly fights people at his planet busting strength. Anyone below SSVegito and Buuhan can be one-shotted by anyone with Town busting punches.

^These are both the averages you're asking for. Planet > Town.

I wonder why he is discussing goku

@Bloodrain...


You are going to have to do better than that. Lol...you clearly know Goku is a high class 100 so what's the point of asking for lifting fts when we both know Anime characters doesn't focus on moving cities or planets.?

Wonder Woman doesn't have close to the lifting fts Superman has but the guy that one shotted Superman, Wonder Woman was able to hang with him AND defeat him. I don't even have to focus on lifting space cheese fts to crush your lame argument.

Example...

Let's use Gladiator because I am not going to sit here and post scans of Superman being koed by mere punches, punches that didn't even level a nearby building or kill the humans that was around them. You're asking me for lifting fts, I show you a person that doesn't even have a single lifting ft under his belt koing Superman and you disregard it. I know Goku can
hhurt Superman with his fist because he is a high class 100 before even going Super Saiyan. Space cheese fts doesn't change this, its me knowing comic books.

Let's start with my examples...

Gladiator has swam through a gas giant...something that dwarfs a sun heat and size.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/507/starmj3.jpg/

Gladiator tanks a blast so powerful that it had enough force to wipe out half of an entire solar system. He doesn't just tank it, he contains it. Contains it to the point that it creates another star.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/267/wtfshipmh5.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/370/wtfship2tj8.jpg/

Then after tanking it he flies to the earth at 100 times the speed of light.

Let's continue...

Gladiator physically destroys a freaking planet with his fist.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/367/destroyingworld1wl5.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/354/destroyingworld2dh8.jpg/

So far we have learned that Gladiator can rip black holes with his bare hands, we have learned that Gladiator can withstand a blast that could have leveled an entire solar system, we have learned that he can destroy planets with his fist, collapse stars with his bare hands, fly at 100 times the speed of light, etc, etc...

Let's see how he fairs in fights. I just posted scans of the phoenix 5...people that doesn't even have a single lifting ft comparable to his beating him in a fist fight.

Cannonball, someone who isn't even a high class 100 absorbs a punch from Glads and redirect it, stunning him.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/267/69403167as4.jpg/

A weakened Hulk that was dying nearly kills him.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/361/71917903eb6.jpg/

This doesn't include him being stunned by living lightning, had his arm broken by a guy that doesn't have a single strength ft under his belt or these space cheese fts you tend to cling to. ON AVERAGE, looking at fights, from both of these characters, Vegeta can take on Superman and Gladiator at the same time and mud stomp them...black hair Goku. You don't just look at space cheese fts,you also look at the overall performance of fights, etc...using your logic of dbating, Superman and Gladiator would beat Galactus ins a fist fight since he doesn't have a single lifting ft under his belt.

facepalm

Net only crashes on long KMC posts. I'm seeing a pattern here >__>


@Carver: The hell are you showing me SuperMohawk? Why not.. so this guy has;
1. He got attacked by a pissed off Hulk who can get to Planet+ levels. Not a negative.
2. IIRC that stun was from a guy who's powers potentially get to Thor's level, Planet+. Not a negative, especially as its only a stun.
3. Getting punched by someone who has the power to redirect the kinetic energy of his attack back at himself. Not a negative. Actually more of a positive seeing as it shows that he can take hits from his own strength, which you proved to be planetary.

That didnt really prove anything.

Oh, and Wonder Woman pulled the Earth with Supes and J'onn. And to note, it takes 6x the energy to pull a planet than it takes to destroy one.


I believe you're missing the point of what average means. If we must, Superman's average would be from his constant battles with characters that have the same strength as him. Wonder Woman, J'onn, Captain Marvel, Orion, Etrigan, Supergirl, Bizzaro, Darkseid, Doomsday, Cyborg Superman. All these characters either have their own planetary strength feats or constantly rival Superman's own strength. Clark being able to constantly fight, take hits from and knock around these people.. multiple fights and multiple hits, is evidence enough that his /average/ is Planetary. Stop ignoring everything for some low-end feats that you can't even explain.



------------------------------------------



Lets get back to the other point. How can a base Vegeta or Goku physically harm Superman? SS3Gotenks has the greatest physical feat which is Multi-city block in destruction. And as we know; Base Goku/Vegeta <x50 SSGoku/SSVegeta <x2 SS2Goku/MjVegeta <x4 SS3Goku = SSGotenks <x8 SS3Gotenks.

So how will base Vegeta, being drastically weaker than SS3Gotenks who is physically far below Town busting, be able to harm Superman?


If you're saying it for Supes the same must apply for DB, right? So by your methods DB are on average below Town busting. Not really that impressive.

..comics are confusing.


Just a note, wouldn't King Kai tracking spaceships but not the Goku fighting be similar to how humans can track a comet flying by but not a fast punch?

Essentially, yes. It was too late for me to think of a real-world example, stfu.

i just think vegeta wouldn't be able to take a lot of superman's punches

Carver, stop lowballing Superman.

Don't worry Pr, I think I scared him off.

Why don't you ever partake in the carver smashing? You know far more about Superman than I.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Don't worry Pr, I think I scared him off.

Why don't you ever partake in the carver smashing? You know far more about Superman than I.

Because sadly, it's circular with Carver. He'll bring something up, i'll disprove it, and a month or two later he'll bring up the exact same thing like it's never been addressed before.

And he thinks he gets away with it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Because sadly, it's circular with Carver. He'll bring something up, i'll disprove it, and a month or two later he'll bring up the exact same thing like it's never been addressed before.

And he thinks he gets away with it.