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Who wins?

In open spaces Maxima wins more times than not due to bfr, but in an enclosed arena setting Cain stomps.

Juggs wins. I'm not even sure it's in Maxima's character to bfr. She likes to fight.

Maxima, convincingly. She has the physical stats to contend with Juggs and also has TK and TP.

Classic Juggernaut could circumvent TK no problem. He literally walked on air against Jean's TK in one of his first appearances. To TP him she has to get past his force field which I doubt she can do. And while she can hit him, she won't do any damage, which isn't true of him.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Maxima, convincingly. She has the physical stats to contend with Juggs and also has TK and TP.

She may can win with TP but not sure she would try to fight him. Her physical stats are irrelevant since they are not enough to damage Juggs.

So with the insight you gave she can possibly win with TP. But not sure she will go that route though. Maybe. Is the removal of Juggs helmet in order to use TP on him common knowledge?

Jean's TK is miniscule compared to Maxima's.

She can certainly pick him up and toss him around like a ragdoll unless he already has gained momentum from charging.

But TK isn't going to do squat against him anyways. The only way Maxima can put him down is to get his helmet off.

Short of that, BFR is her only answer to him.

Maxima.

Maxima could possibly take this .

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Maxima, convincingly. She has the physical stats to contend with Juggs and also has TK and TP.
Cain is so stupid he'd probably brag to her that he's immune to TP because of his helmet (I think he's actually done this on panel a few times). She would then rip it off and own him.

Can't get through his force field to touch the helmet though. (He'd keep it on the whole time during a forum fight)

Originally posted by KingD19
Can't get through his force field to touch the helmet though. (He'd keep it on the whole time during a forum fight)

This is actually proof that a lot of the time Juggs isn't written without a forcefield. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been physically removed all those times.

Just about every time his helmet's been removed, his force field's been down(like against Thor), or he just wasn't written with it.

The hot chick wins

Originally posted by KingD19
Just about every time his helmet's been removed, his force field's been down(like against Thor), or he just wasn't written with it. I hate that the force-field is the automatic 'go-to' in classic Juggernaut threads. You could probably count the amount of comics in which the FF has been mentioned/portrayed, on one hand. Hell, even in the classic days it was hardly referenced/used--Nimrod removing Juggy's helmet with a casual backhand is proof enough of that.

Maxi's huge speed advantage would by proxy give her time to launch several unanswered passes/assaults, or whatever else she might want to do. After all they both know of the others abilities. She should win, but Cain is fast enough in the reaction time dept. to grab her if she did not instantly yank his helmet off, and it turned into a slug fest. Was there ever a time that Black Tom thought to fashion a face mask for Cain?

Cain would most assuredly win this, if the BFR option were to be removed, and his design were tweaked (face mask made of the magic repelling sources that his helmet are made of). In a real world setting I'd say that Maxima, has far more advantages.

Maxima. rips his helmet of then mindrape. So was the juggs that fought wwhulk at classic levels? He didn't seem to have a forcefield. How many times has jugs actually used a forcefield? I have seen the helmet get ripped off to many times...

bfr is maximas only option. if not, juggs wins.

Originally posted by nwg202
Maxima. rips his helmet of then mindrape. So was the juggs that fought wwhulk at classic levels? He didn't seem to have a forcefield. How many times has jugs actually used a forcefield? I have seen the helmet get ripped off to many times...


If we take Juggernaut at his best, he wore a face mask that made it rather difficult to use TP against him. He had redundancy.

Originally posted by Stoic
If we take Juggernaut at his best, he wore a face mask that made it rather difficult to use TP against him. He had redundancy.

You mean this face mask? well w/o bfr or mindrape, juggs wins of course.

if she can get the helmet off she wins. if not, he does, eventually. she is extremely durable in general though and near kal's strength range so IF he's stronger, it sure ain't by much..... she also has her ferrokinetic abilities which should make it easier for her to remove the helmet. if she gets the helmet off, i don't see the facemask being an issue for too long....

If Maxima knew about Juggernauts weakness to mental attacks, she would beat him 10 / 10, as shes definately strong enough to rip off his helmet and then mentally assault him. Heck, she could even use her TK to remove the helmet, and her TP to then beat him, not even needing to go anywhere near him. Thats if she knew, being that she wont shell engage him HTH and probably only use her mental attacks as a last resort, Id say still giving her a 5.5 / 10 win over Cain in the end.

i often wonder if the tp thing is 'common knowledge'. sometimes it seems to be, other times it doesn't. she's pretty sharp. even if she doesn't know, she might say to herself--why the hell does this guy need a helmet....? maybe.

Well, if Maxima was from Marvel, Id say theres definately a chance that shell know, but being from DC, she wouldnt know anything about Juggernaut, and not having that info will hurt her greatly (meaning shell really have to work for a win, over her beating him cleanly and easily)

hmm, i could be wrong, but i thought that traditionally, common knowledge extended across universes. least that's the way i generally view common knowledge...

Er, first time I heard that. Not saying its not true here on this forum, if so I had no idea, but I always took these as unless the thread mod stated otherwise, characters from different universes wouldnt know anything about one another.

Originally posted by DTM
Er, first time I heard that. Not saying its not true here on this forum, if so I had no idea, but I always took these as unless the thread mod stated otherwise, characters from different universes wouldnt know anything about one another.

Naw everyone knows what would be common knowledge in their respective universes here. Anything beyond that depends on the characters own experience with them or others.

Oh, OK, first time Ive heard that, but if thats forum rules, so be it. If thats the case, Maxima beats Juggernaut easily.

Even if Juggernaut can stop the TP, he's not hitting Maxima unless she allows it.

Might be a stalemate.

Originally posted by jalek moye
Naw everyone knows what would be common knowledge in their respective universes here. Anything beyond that depends on the characters own experience with them or others.



and about the stalemate--i don't really see it, least not if she fights in character. she could avoid him by going magneto-lite on him, but i don't see her using her speed to dodge and hit, or her flight to stay out of reach. she'd brawl if her metal control failed to take off the helmet imo.

I agree. Maxima does like a good slugfest.

She's in character when she uses her speed too.

For her to not use her speed in a forum fight, would mean she would literally have to sit there and wait and allow Juggernaut to land a blow--which would be saying that 'in-character' she is literally retarded.

Juggernaut can only hit her if she sits there and allows him to.

She can get into a fisticuffs, which she loves, and still avoid getting hit. It would be easy.

^guess it depends on what you mean by using her speed. she is not wonder woman, and certainly not kal in terms of combat speed. i could see a blitz initially, but really anything more than that is not something she does regularly--least not to my knowledge. she could fly around, but she would need to come to him at some point, and i def don't see this as a battle where juggs couldn't make contact. i don't think max has any feats or battles that would support such a strategy, though i'd love to see them if you do.

The in character thing goes a bit out the window if she knows about Juggernauts powers, abilities and weaknesses. Sure knowing this she MAY still engage him physically, but when that isnt working shell just fly beyond Cains range, TK his helmet off and TP him to unconsciousness. There is virtually no way Maxima can or will lose this is the has full info on Juggernaut.

i'm not fully sold on the idea she could just tk his helmet off. the x-crew have had some uber tk people, and no one that i can recall has ever tk'd the helmet off. this is all assuming he doesn't have his force field in play. if he does, she really can't do anything to him. but it's pretty rare when he does manifest it.

No, but theres been plenty of times when Class 50-75 strength level beings like Rogue and Colossus have ripped it off, Im of the mindset that Maximas TK is in that power range. From memory, the XMen dont normally have TKers of that level of power, sans Phoenix.

fair enough, and maybe you're right, just haven't seen it. if that failed, then her magnetic powers might work--or a combination of the 2....

Originally posted by DTM
No, but theres been plenty of times when Class 50-75 strength level beings like Rogue and Colossus have ripped it off, Im of the mindset that Maximas TK is in that power range. From memory, the XMen dont normally have TKers of that level of power, sans Phoenix.

Her TK is pretty uber.

Juggernaut. Seriously.

I feel as if many people are forgetting something crucial here; Although Maxima has speed over Cain, she would have to make physical contact. This is where she would be slowed down. Classic Juggernaut possessed a field that absorbed the energy of impacts, whether they be of matter or energy. Maxima would blitz Juggernaut, but it will be difficult to stop him from swinging at the same time. None of her hits would be effective against him. She would neither stagger him, or be able to stun him based on his past durability stunts. If he had on the face mask, she would not be able to win if BFR was off.

When I say face mask, I don't mean helmet. Cain once had a redundancy or fall back plan in the form of a face mask made of the same material as his helmet, which he briefly wore beneath the helmet.

Originally posted by DTM
Er, first time I heard that. Not saying its not true here on this forum, if so I had no idea, but I always took these as unless the thread mod stated otherwise, characters from different universes wouldnt know anything about one another.

I have never heard that rule either. Seems like some new bull shyte. Especially since I see many times people say the exact opposite.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
I have never heard that rule either. Seems like some new bull shyte. Especially since I see many times people say the exact opposite.


It's actually in the forum rules, and has been for quite a while. Check it for yourself.

Maxima easily.

She just uses her molecular tk to melt off his helmet, and then mind rapes him.

Maxima. And it's not even close.

Originally posted by Stoic
When I say face mask, I don't mean helmet. Cain once had a redundancy or fall back plan in the form of a face mask made of the same material as his helmet, which he briefly wore beneath the helmet.

i know the mask you're talking about. i was never clear what it was made of though. didn't appear to be the saem as the helmet though so if she can get the helmet off seems the mask wouldn't be any more difficult.

and you're talking about his force field that once showed to slow thor's hammer. that is really not the norm. can you name anything else that the field ever slowed down? if not, i don't see it being a very sound argument as that ability appears more of a one-time deal. be like saying he blasts energy globes at her or casts the crimson bands on her....

Originally posted by leonidas


and you're talking about his force field that once showed to slow thor's hammer. that is really not the norm.

Even if he has a forcefield, why would it prevent Maxima from using her TK that has pulled continental plates together? Maxima has affected things before with her TK on the other side of a forcefield.

^ juggs field is a little different. no way i see her doing anything to him at all if we allow him his force field.

With all this talk revolving around Juggernaut's forcefield, I wonder how people consider him when said forcefield isn't explicitly in action.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
With all this talk revolving around Juggernaut's forcefield, I wonder how people consider him when said forcefield isn't explicitly in action. That Maxima will probably TK his helmet(s) off easily and TP him to ko.

Originally posted by Newjak
That Maxima will probably TK his helmet(s) off easily and TP him to ko. Juggernaut's helmet doesn't strike me as being that easy to pry off. I'm willing to look at examples of telekinesis on Maxima's level prying it off though. I don't know why people are making Juggernaut out to be some sort of glass cannon. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
With all this talk revolving around Juggernaut's forcefield, I wonder how people consider him when said forcefield isn't explicitly in action.

tbh i've always found juggs a little confusing as regards his powerset. without the field (and i'm referencing the one as seen in thor) i still see him as uber durable, but he can be struck physically and so his helmet becomes a vulnerability if someone is strong enough to attack it and follow it up with high level tp. thor seemed ready to ko him as well without his field. do you think that was pis or do you think thor cancelled more than just his field?

Juggernaut 10/10

Originally posted by leonidas
tbh i've always found juggs a little confusing as regards his powerset. without the field (and i'm referencing the one as seen in thor) i still see him as uber durable, but he can be struck physically and so his helmet becomes a vulnerability if someone is strong enough to attack it and follow it up with high level tp. thor seemed ready to ko him as well without his field. do you think that was pis or do you think thor cancelled more than just his field? As far as I know, the only instance where Juggernaut's forcefield was directly responsible for his unstoppability/invincibility was that scene in Thor. So I don't feel comfortable pegging every other appearance where we don't see his invisible forcefield at work as being a situation where his forcefield is inexplicably turned off. I mean... it's an invisible forcefield (which itself is a simple physical manifestation of unstoppability/invincibility).

Juggernaut is virtually unstoppable/invincible with or without his forcefield. He's not unbeatable. And I agree once his helmet comes off, psychics have his number. But I just don't see his helmet coming off easily at all. And this is coming from someone who has seen three different versions of Hulk do it: enraged Savage Hulk, enraged Professor Hulk and War Hulk.

It's been visibly drawn several times, and when it hasn't been shown or stated, that's usually when the helmet's come off. Like when he fought the X-Men and Colossus simply ripped it to shreds instead of knocking it off.

And in that story, his durability was basically all in his forcefield. When Thor dropped it, he still had some, but it wasn't anywhere near as strong. That's not really how it works though, as his force field is more about keeping things from touching him. He's plenty durable on his own.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Juggernaut's helmet doesn't strike me as being that easy to pry off. I'm willing to look at examples of telekinesis on Maxima's level prying it off though. I don't know why people are making Juggernaut out to be some sort of glass cannon. That couldn't be further from the truth. Nimrod knocked it off pretty casually, the X-Men have obviously gotten it off a couple of times.

I'm not saying it is easy but it has come off enough that it's obviously not as tough as one would think.

As for his FF being the source of his durability, I believe that comic is pretty much the only reference to it. Even recently depowered Juggs was able to take a beating from Thor in Thunderbolts much in the same vein as what he did when Thor dropped his FF.

I think normal powered Juggs is slightly more invulnerable than Depowered Juggs.

So personally think it was a once off writer either missing the point or Thor took more power away then just his FF.

Where classic Juggernaut is concerned...

Angel has removed his helmet:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12065090_j00.jpg

Beast has removed it:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12065091_j0.jpg

Nimrod has removed it:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12065092_j1.jpg

...And those were just some instances I could think of off the top of my head.

So yeah, sans force-field I don't see Maxima having any issues at all removing the helmet (either physically or via TK), and proceeding to mind-phuck Juggy.

Rogue and Colossus also have removed Juggys helmet as well. Its not easily removed, but its not that hard to do so either.

Originally posted by leonidas
^ juggs field is a little different. no way i see her doing anything to him at all if we allow him his force field.

So, neither Sersi, nor Molecule Man could penetrate his FF with their powers?

^ well, sersi to molecule man is a rather large jump in power..... molecule man is much more powerful than cyttorak and so i'd think molecule man really wouldn't care about jugg's shield or power or anything else.

but yeah, i certainly don't see sersi affecting juggs in any way at all with her transmutation powers.

Juggernauts force field also physically stopped spidermans webbing. The Webbing stuck to his force field not him. When Spiderman tried to hit Juggs he bounced off the force field and almost got killed by smacking into a roof. Maxima loses, but looks like a champ doing it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Where classic Juggernaut is concerned...

Angel has removed his helmet:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12065090_j00.jpg

Beast has removed it:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12065091_j0.jpg

Nimrod has removed it:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12065092_j1.jpg

...And those were just some instances I could think of off the top of my head.

So yeah, sans force-field I don't see Maxima having any issues at all removing the helmet (either physically or via TK), and proceeding to mind-phuck Juggy. Since when does removing his helmet remove his powers (2nd scan) and since when does Black Tom design his helmet (3rd scan)???? Originally posted by KingD19
It's been visibly drawn several times, and when it hasn't been shown or stated, that's usually when the helmet's come off. Like when he fought the X-Men and Colossus simply ripped it to shreds instead of knocking it off.

And in that story, his durability was basically all in his forcefield. When Thor dropped it, he still had some, but it wasn't anywhere near as strong. That's not really how it works though, as his force field is more about keeping things from touching him. He's plenty durable on his own. I'd disagree with the underlined part. I didn't see it all the times he's fought the Hulk. Or Thunderstrike, or X-Force, or Cannonball.

Although I don't have any real imput I wanna add, I just wanna say I'm enjoying reading the discussions in this thread.

Originally posted by leonidas
^ well, sersi to molecule man is a rather large jump in power..... molecule man is much more powerful than cyttorak and so i'd think molecule man really wouldn't care about jugg's shield or power or anything else.

but yeah, i certainly don't see sersi affecting juggs in any way at all with her transmutation powers.

Would you say that enchanted uru metal is more or less durable than the metal used to make Juggernaut's helmet?

Originally posted by Arabus
Would you say that enchanted uru metal is more or less durable than the metal used to make Juggernaut's helmet?

i'd say you're attempting to fashion some form of abc logic and that the issue of uru is irrelevant to this discussion.....

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Since when does removing his helmet remove his powers (2nd scan) and since when does Black Tom design his helmet (3rd scan)???? I'd disagree with the underlined part. I didn't see it all the times he's fought the Hulk. Or Thunderstrike, or X-Force, or Cannonball. Like a lot of things about the Juggernaut character the helmet has been shown differently. His helmet has been bolted on which is how I think it was shown in the Nimrod scene, it has been strapped on, and other times it has been mystically sealed to his armor.

It's also not as durable as as one would like, if I remember correctly it has been blasted off by an alien laser, obviously the Hulk has dented it. Most of this is from memory so I could be wrong about some details.

It's durability isn't in question. Unlike his armor and the crimson bands on his arms, which have never really been damaged, the helmet is the weak point. It's like the proverbial chink in the armor, and in reality it has to be. If his helmet was as indestructible as everything else, you'd never beat him.

What is in question, is whether this Classic Juggernaut has his forcefield or not. With it, Maxima stands no chance. WIthout it, Maxima's chances are a lot better, but it won't be easy wins for her. Cain's still worlds stronger and durable enough to not really be phased by her.

Forcefield = Juggernaut 10/10
No Forcefield = Maxima 5.5-7/10

Originally posted by KingD19
It's durability isn't in question. Unlike his armor and the crimson bands on his arms, which have never really been damaged, the helmet is the weak point. It's like the proverbial chink in the armor, and in reality it has to be. If his helmet was as indestructible as everything else, you'd never beat him.

What is in question, is whether this Classic Juggernaut has his forcefield or not. With it, Maxima stands no chance. WIthout it, Maxima's chances are a lot better, but it won't be easy wins for her. Cain's still worlds stronger and durable enough to not really be phased by her.

Forcefield = Juggernaut 10/10
No Forcefield = Maxima 5.5-7/10

Originally posted by leonidas
i'd say you're attempting to fashion some form of abc logic and that the issue of uru is irrelevant to this discussion.....

Are you not doing the same thing with Molecule Man? Or, do you have an example of Owen's powers being directly more powerful than Cyttorak?

Originally posted by Arabus
Are you not doing the same thing with Molecule Man? Or, do you have an example of Owen's powers being directly more powerful than Cyttorak?

that's not what i'm doing with mm at all. YOU brought him up don't forget. mm has feats that would put him well beyond someone like cyttorak imo, but if you don't want to believe that that's up to you and this is no place for that discussion as it's off-topic. make a moleculeman vs cyttorak thread if you'd like.

your initial query was do i think sersi could transmute juggs. my answer was and is i don't think there is any chance at all that could happen--nor do i suspect would i be alone in that thought. but that doesn't mean NO ONE could so so. i guess i could ask you what proof do YOU have that would make anyone think sersi's powers COULD affect juggs through his forcefield? what feats of hers, or AGAINST juggs, would warrant that belief?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Maxima, convincingly. She has the physical stats to contend with Juggs and also has TK and TP.

Superman one shot KOed her with a backhand..

And physically, she's never been able to damage him or pose a serious threat.

If she fought smart, her TK and TP would give her the win, but she often doesn't fight smart, going for the straight beat down..

Originally posted by leonidas
that's not what i'm doing with mm at all. YOU brought him up don't forget.

Well yeah I brought him up. Some people say that Maxima wouldn't be able to transmute Juggs helmet. Therefore, I just asked your opinion on whether Sersi or Molecule Man could matter manipulate the helmet to gauge if it's matter manipulation that Juggs is immune to or something else.

Originally posted by leonidas your initial query was do i think sersi could transmute juggs. my answer was and is i don't think there is any chance at all that could happen--nor do i suspect would i be alone in that thought.

Okay, but why Molecule Man, and not Sersi? You said that Molecule Man is much more powerful that Cytorrak. What are you basing that belief on? Any particular feats?

Originally posted by leonidas i guess i could ask you what proof do YOU have that would make anyone think sersi's powers COULD affect juggs through his forcefield? what feats of hers, or AGAINST juggs, would warrant that belief?

I never made any claims about Molecule Man being more powerful than Cytorrak, and therefore more powerful than Sersi, so the burden of proof isn't on me to defend that claim.

Maxima is strong/durable enough that she can hang with Superman(most of the time), and her telekinesis is pretty powerful. When she was weakened and demoralized(Starbreaker had absorbed quite a bit of her energy and the people she ruled kicked her head in), she was capable of manipulating continental plates on a planet that was supposed to be much larger than Earth. She is also MUCH MUCH MUCH faster than Juggernaut. And if the helmet does come off during the fight, her telepathy ends him. During PANIC IN THE SKIES she matched and defeated Brainiac(when he was amped by WarWorld) in a telepathic stand-off.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Maxima is strong/durable enough that she can hang with Superman(most of the time), and her telekinesis is pretty powerful. When she was weakened and demoralized(Starbreaker had absorbed quite a bit of her energy and the people she ruled kicked her head in), she was capable of manipulating continental plates on a planet that was supposed to be much larger than Earth. She is also MUCH MUCH MUCH faster than Juggernaut. And if the helmet does come off during the fight, her telepathy ends him. During PANIC IN THE SKIES she matched and defeated Brainiac(when he was amped by WarWorld) in a telepathic stand-off.

Panic in the Sky is a questionable source, considering Maxima was putting up a fight while he was jacked into Warworld, yet Brainiac also took down Metron while he was in his mobious chair, yet Dubblex was able to shield himself using that same chair.

Metron folding is the main thing here.. If he can't even last one second (Considering even Martian Manhunter couldn't mind screw a New God, and Maxima is beneath J'onn on the tp tree..), no way Maxima should be able to.

Originally posted by cdtm
Superman one shot KOed her with a backhand..


The only time that Superman backhanded Maxima was when the Eradicator had possessed Clark, so it's misleading to be using that one. I mean, she's taken super speed roundhouse kicks and pressure point attacks from Superman and kept fighting.

Originally posted by cdtm

And physically, she's never been able to damage him or pose a serious threat.


What are you basing this on? Their fights in OWAW, and the one drawn by Tom Grummett certainly don't illustrate what you're claiming.

Originally posted by Arabus
The only time that Superman backhanded Maxima was when the Eradicator had possessed Clark, so it's misleading to be using that one. I mean, she's taken super speed roundhouse kicks and pressure point attacks from Superman and kept fighting.



What are you basing this on? Their fights in OWAW, and the one drawn by Tom Grummett certainly don't illustrate what you're claiming.

He was possessed by Eradicator, yes. And that's why he didn't pull his punch.

Juggernaut won't pull his blows normally, and he's certainly comparable to Superman in sheer strength. (Perhaps not as strong, but on the same tier shared by Superman, Thor, Savage Hulk.. A tier Maxima is below.)

As for why I don't think she's a real threat: Because she's never actually damaged him. She'll spend half an issue belting him around a city, and not draw blood and really seem to hurt him.. And in that Eradicator possession example you mentioned, he walked right through her tk, as she was attempting to kill him. Eradicator affected his bloodlust, but not his physical stats, so that's a durability feat.

Originally posted by KingD19
It's durability isn't in question. Unlike his armor and the crimson bands on his arms, which have never really been damaged, the helmet is the weak point. It's like the proverbial chink in the armor, and in reality it has to be. If his helmet was as indestructible as everything else, you'd never beat him.

What is in question, is whether this Classic Juggernaut has his forcefield or not. With it, Maxima stands no chance. WIthout it, Maxima's chances are a lot better, but it won't be easy wins for her. Cain's still worlds stronger and durable enough to not really be phased by her.

Forcefield = Juggernaut 10/10
No Forcefield = Maxima 5.5-7/10 Of course Classic Juggernaut has his force field, it's been a part of his character since the beginning and I mean very beginning, his first comic arc had him use it.

Cain has always suffered from CIS in that regard.

What I'm saying is, he's been drawn without it in his classic incarnation a bunch of times. Even if it's not stated. That's the only way people like Beast, Angel, etc... could remove it.

Originally posted by Arabus
Well yeah I brought him up. Some people say that Maxima wouldn't be able to transmute Juggs helmet. Therefore, I just asked your opinion on whether Sersi or Molecule Man could matter manipulate the helmet to gauge if it's matter manipulation that Juggs is immune to or something else.

why mm and sersi? mm is WAY above sersi based on a number of feats. his battle against the beyonder alone illustrates that. check his respect thread. sersi is an insect to mm so i don't get the comparsion as any failure in her ability to affect juggs bears no relationship to his ability to do so.



hmm, you don't know mm, huh? like i said, check the respect thread. or don't if you're not inclined. but yeah, i'd def place owen well above cyttorak, especially in light of the fact that cyttorak has next to no feats. both are well above sersi or max.



i never asked you to defend THAT position at all and in fact said take the discussion elsewhere. my specific question is in direct relation to your own--you asked why i didn't think sersi could affect him. i don't think she has the power to transmute him through his ff. simple. she has no feats that would support her ability to dos o, and juggs has had nothing done to him like that that would suggest it could work. WITHOUT the ff, she might be able to affect his helmet, like max could affect it with her ferrokinesis. maybe. but you seemed to think she COULD affect it through the ff. so....why? what support do YOU have that she could? if you're not positing that she could, and have no stance, then you're only asking questions to get an opinion, which i've given. if you're questioning said opinion, then where's the proof to support the contrary?

Originally posted by cdtm
He was possessed by Eradicator, yes. And that's why he didn't pull his punch.
As for why I don't think she's a real threat: Because she's never actually damaged him. She'll spend half an issue belting him around a city, and not draw blood and really seem to hurt him.. And in that Eradicator possession example you mentioned, he walked right through her tk, as she was attempting to kill him. Eradicator affected his bloodlust, but not his physical stats, so that's a durability feat.

If you're saying that the Eradicator only affected his bloodlust when he walked right through her tk, then why was Superman getting knocked down prior to his costume transformation?

Originally posted by Arabus
The only time that Superman backhanded Maxima was when the Eradicator had possessed Clark, so it's misleading to be using that one. I mean, she's taken super speed roundhouse kicks and pressure point attacks from Superman and kept fighting.



What are you basing this on? Their fights in OWAW, and the one drawn by Tom Grummett certainly don't illustrate what you're claiming.

Do you have scans of Superman using super speed kicks and pressure point attacks on Maxima? Sounds great.