KMC Mid-Herald Championship #2

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Somebody better whup somebody's ass. I don't want a close match to have to consider.

Don Corleone
Congratulations Jake !

You have the job big grin

Just a note guy's , rule 1 has been changed to a 10 post limit.

Good luck gentlemen.

sorry for the delay. shall make my opening post tomorrow. busy busy and the post needed a great deal of revising.....


Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Guess the Number of Skrull Inhabitants?

Uncanny X-Men 371
(August 1999)
(Writer: Alan Davis, Artist: Jimmy Cheung)

8 Billion Skrulls inhabited the Skrull Homeland Planet and Xavier linked to each and every one without aid all the way from the orbiting Moon.

Mind Linking and Projection the Emotions of 8 Billion Skrulls

X-Men 90
(July 1999)
(Writer: Alan Davis, Artist: Terry Kavanagh)

An unaided (Pre-Upgrade) Xavier mind links with 8 billion skrull minds all the way from a moon and projects their emotions at Galactus who is unfazed regardless of that the feat in itself is still very impressive.

Xavier without a doubt is a "telepath supreme".

and of course xavier has ALSO scanned the minds of everyone on planet earth:

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Some planetary feats from Xavier:

Xavier mindprobes the entire globe, searching for people of good will. He rejects some but combines the psychic energy from the billions of people he chooses, as one. This energy is directed through Jean to Havok to Cyclops and fired at the Z'nox homeworld. The Z'nox are driven away and Xavier, exhausted from the ordeal, releases the minds of those from which he borrowed the mental energy.

thanks to my men xmarks and ec.

he goes a step further and sifts through the minds to find what he likes and gathers the energy. a much greater feat than cable's. even in the god-cable arc, there was this brief exchange between cable and xavier:

charles agrees to respect the barriers, but in no way does he imply he couldn't get through them had he tried, nor does he seem in the least intimidated. even cable seemed more outraged than surprised to me.

so, i do not think it is inappropriate to look at his battles with prof x to get a handle on his ability to handle high level tp assault. so, how DOES he fare against the 'most powerful mind in the world'?

note too how even as he is battling xavier, he is using his magnetic powers simultaneously. that is just one feat. there are several others that, again, i will bring up as necessary. it is likely smurph will bring up the famous 'mind wipe' feat as proof that mags is vulnerable to psi attacks. bear in mind said event took place after a LENGTHY battle with a whole host of xmen, he was weakened by rogue, he was without his helmet and had been further weakened by bishop who had siphoned off mag's own energy and used it against him.....

none of those things are an issue here. oh, and there is no proof at all, no feats that would lead one to believe, that cable=xavier in terms of telepathy.... opinions aside, PROOF is what is called for here. prof x is a proven commodity and as powerful a tp as there is in marvel. we can't just assume cable is at that level, or even the level of phoenix, without definite proof.

even allowing for the belief that cable is AROUND x's level, the reasons i don't feel his tp would net him a win are 3-fold:

(1) even since that mindwipe, mags' PERSONAL psi defenses have increased. here doom's telepath, seer, comments on them:

(2) his helmet provides him even greater protection. here a helmet is created based on magneto's design and it completely nullifies charle's tp:

(3) his power itself hampers psi abilities:


and before anyone thinks i'm misrepresenting--i know that cortez was around at the time, but mags was also severely depowered at the same time and cortez was being used to get him back to his regular power levels. there is no proof he was amped beyond what he was later shown to be when he regained his full powers. in fact, the feats he performed during that arc are below MANY of his earlier and later feats.....

so, i've addressed cable's main offensive abilities--tk and tp--an tried to give some early reasons as to why i think neither would be enough to net cable a win over magneto.

now, what can mags do to cable? well, he can do what he has ALREADY done:

for all his new-found power, he is STILL largely metal and mags is STILL the master of it. he might try and say something about his healing factor helping him. thing is, he has no healing feats to gauge the actual effectiveness of his new healing factor to stave off injuries. we know it allowed his body to--temporarily--avoid the burn out he would have experienced without it. it was enough to buy him time to go about his 'jesus-like' tasks. but he never sustained injury and it was ALREADY being taxed to its limits. could it actually handle an assault of the kind i just showed?? i saw no evidence of that. i DO know he got a nosebleed shielding some missles though.... and i know that the first time he DID sustain a heavy injury--when ss effortlessly blasted off his arm (what of his shields??)--the hf did nothing and had reached a critical limit. in fact had already begun to FAIL him as cable suggests he didn't have much time left even BEFORE the ss attacked him.

again, like his tp, the hf lacks feats to support its usefulness in this match. i see no reason to think the hf could deal with the type of attack mags used to literally rip him apart. mags could also just use the iron in cable's blood to forcibly PULL the blood from his body. no blood, no healing. or shut off the flow of blood to his brain or perhaps simply cause a massive aneurysm or stroke, ala xorneto.

keep this fact in mind at all times--CABLE IS MADE OF VAST AMOUNTS OF METAL. for all his 'atomic levels of tk control', magneto himself has atomic levels of control and has feats that are themselves as impressive as nate's:

makes a wormhole, alone:

the absolutely incredible bullet feat: (thanks galan!)

Originally posted by Galan007
Here's that:

and dealing with celestials:

and those bots he assumed control of so easily, aside from being celestial tech, were powerful enough that one of them blew emma's diamond-form arm off...

lol damn......

all of these feats are staggering in scope and rival god-cable's greatest feats. they serve to illustrate just how powerful magneto truly is. despite his great power, cable has no way of by-passing mags' shields with his tk, he has no feats to back-up the level of his tp, or to prove it is at a level high enough to penetrate mag's layers of defense, and above all, he retains a massive area of vulnerability--a predominantly METAL-BASED body that magneto can manipulate in an almost endless variety of ways to destroy him.

in short, his greatest strengths are nothing mags hasn't seen and overcome, while his weakness is simply too massive a handicap for him, or his unproven healing factor, to overcome.

Just post links instead of thumbnails. No limit there.

Don Corleone
First blood belongs to Leo.

Sorry guys, I've been in Vancouver over the weekend. I fly back today though and we can get some real conflict going.

Get excited.

vancouver?? damn... been as far as edmonton but never bc. supposed to be quite the town....

Don Corleone
Originally posted by Existere
Sorry guys, I've been in Vancouver over the weekend. I fly back today though and we can get some real conflict going.

Get excited.

You promised us blood !

Ok, firstly, huge apologies to Leo. I didn't expect my business trip to keep me as preoccupied as it did, but such is life or whatever.

If we want to talk about extending the match, I'd be game for discussion. I'm not super keen on a one-week match after all.

I'll be making my first post shortly.

Originally posted by Existere
Ok, firstly, huge apologies to Leo. I didn't expect my business trip to keep me as preoccupied as it did, but such is life or whatever.

If we want to talk about extending the match, I'd be game for discussion. I'm not super keen on a one-week match after all.

I'll be making my first post shortly.

no worries. i'm fine with extending it another week or a few days or whatever the judges are good with.

Smurph Post #1

This is what I'm listening to as I write this post. Feel free to join me.



So Leo basically wants to drive home Magneto's long history of waging mental and physical warfare with Prof. X, hoping to draw an effective comparison between Charles and Cable, and thus establish Erik as being effectively defended against Nate's telepathy.

Let's let Leo draw that comparison and see how it shapes out.

In this first post I'm going to deconstruct a number of my opponent's points that I see as being particularly contentious. Next post, I'm going to bring in some new points of my own from the perspective: Cable is a motherf*cking rockstar.

The Telepathy Comparison

Charles Xavier vs. Erik's Willpower: Decent Match

Before I even jump into Cable's end of things, I want to bring the focus back to Erik's history with Professor X:

Firstly, I think it's fair to say that any way you cut it, the history of the two mutant leaders has victories on both sides.

Some instances, Magneto's willpower keeps control of his mind. On the other hand, we have Fatal Attractions

Or, you know, Magneto admitting that Xavier piercing his mind is easy enough

There was also that time that Xavier took mental control of Erik's powers and used them to throw Avalon into space.

I know Leo's already raised his defenses to these instances, primarily:

Originally posted by leonidas
it is likely smurph will bring up the famous 'mind wipe' feat as proof that mags is vulnerable to psi attacks. bear in mind said event took place after a LENGTHY battle with a whole host of xmen, he was weakened by rogue, he was without his helmet and had been further weakened by bishop who had siphoned off mag's own energy and used it against him.....

And hey, fair enough. It can be argued that due to Magneto's LONG and STRENUOUS battle against a handful of low to mid metas, that he was simply no match for a low herald telepath.

Which of course leads us to the question: How do you think he'll fair against a mind superior to Xavier's given that Cable actually held off the Silver Surfer without using any offensive telepathy?

I mean, if getting attacked by Bishop, Gambit and Cyclops is an arduous task for ol' Erik, how long do you think his mental shields will hold up when he's getting struck with enough force to hold up Providence, perform vast sub-atomic matter manipulation and break Surfer's board? Especially considering that he'll be faced with a mind that LOLs at Emma Frost equipped with Cerebra?

This leads me into my next point:

God Like Cable vs Charles Xavier: Spite Match

Leo wanted to draw a comparison between Charles and Nate, let's do it.

The crux of his argument is that Xavier has accessed bigger amounts of minds than Nate (Skrull feat) and done more with them (picking and choosing Earth minds feat), and so it can be submitted that perhaps he (Xavier) is a stronger telepath than Cable.


Obviously this argument rests on a couple things: God-Like Cable only appeared for a handful of issues, and so his feats, while impressive, are limited in their quantity.

While in his God-Like form, Cable:

Soothed the pain of every dying person around the globe constantly.
Telepathically ionized the atmosphere of the earth.
Telepathically monitored global conversations (those of GW. Bridge, Irene Merryweather, SHIELD, etc).

We never got to see the full extent of how far his telepathy can reach or how many minds it could access at once, and so we don't know if his range matches up to Xavier's star-spanning telepathic ability.

We do know that doing all these things took a minor fraction of Cable's power, that he was performing these tasks constantly and that he was doing it for days and weeks on end. Impressive, but not crucially important to this argument, which is why Leo's comparison is going to fall short.

Here's the scan talking about how he's constantly soothing the worlds pain,

Incidentally, for a short case comparison alone, Skrull feat vs. Cable's soothing-the-pain feat:

Xavier harnessed the emotions of 8 billion beings and fired it in a beam at Galactus, who was (iirc) completely unfazed.

Cable sifted through the emotions and pain of 6.8 billion beings, seeking out the ones that were dying and soothed them of all pain for weeks.

Feats aren't entirely incomparable.

Like I said though, none of this is going to decide who's the superior telepath. Range and span of telepathic reach isn't going to win a battlezone, and we've seen the history of Xavier vs. Erik to know well enough how Charles fairs in a head to head match.

Let's give Cable the same treatment, yeah?

Leo would like us to believe that Xavier could easily pierce Cable's telepathic shielding. Well, this is baloney for two reasons. Firstly, Magneto doesn't have telepathy, so, you know, who gives two shits about Cable's telepathic shielding? Secondly, Leo and I are both aware that that feat occurred before Cable got Deadpool's healing factor, and so before he ascended to God-Like form.

For a direct comparison, directly prior to

Originally posted by leonidas
even in the god-cable arc, there was this brief exchange between cable and xavier:

charles agrees to respect the barriers, but in no way does he imply he couldn't get through them had he tried, nor does he seem in the least intimidated. even cable seemed more outraged than surprised to me.

Cable was exhausted by going about his days work and then extracting a deadly virus from some bodies (hence Charles' worrying about the effect of all this power on his body).

After getting that healing factor, Cable was able to dedicate his focus to controlling the virus globally.

Anyways, now that it's clear that we lack a direct comparison between Cable and Charles, we have to go to the next-most direct comparison available.

In this case, Cable vs. Emma Frost smile

Emma, I think we can all agree, is one clear notch below Charles. She has her own feats of global telepathy, and she's matched and outperformed Exodus telepathically (who in turn has stalemated Sersi. Leo brought up a comparison between Sersi and Cable in his post and this should neatly put that to rest as well).

Emma with Cerebra, then, should be beyond Charles I would think.

Cerebra amps psychic power to the 10th degree. Note that this is obviously different from multiplying it by 10:

5*10 = 50
5^10 = 9 765 625


Anyways, in a match where we're talking about Cable's ability to cut through psychic shielding, the most direct comparison we can find is him up against the psychic shields of Emma with Cerebra.

If Cable is a Sersi/Xavier level telepath, Emma should hold up pretty easily, no?

"Psychic are holding. Barely."

The kicker? Cable wasn't probing for the X-Men. He didn't even realize that Emma was near Providence or attempting to shield the group psychically.

Emma comments that as Cable casually looks into the minds of the entire planet, she (with Cerebra at her disposal) can barely shield the thoughts of her team.

I submit that Cable is during his time on earth as a God, Cable was an astoundingly superior telepath to anybody else on the planet. Without actually attempting to do anything, his telepathic presence nearly shattered the shields of Emma Frost, one of the top five telepaths on Marvel Earth.

I submit further that Magneto has never gone up against a telepath of this caliber. Leo mentioned Jean Grey as 'Phoenix', but it's certainly a little misleading to call that incarnation of Jean 'Phoenix'. She was at a loss for her real power, which is why she lacks telepathic feats and which is why she was getting power-trumped by Magneto. no expression

Wrapping Up

Leo knows what this match rests on. I know what this match rests on. The judges know what this match rests on. It's all about telepathy. We have on-panel proof that Magneto's mental defenses are far from impregnable, and we know that should they be penetrated, that's game over for Erik.

Finally, one last point for this post. I've brushed over this, but not paid it the attention I feel is due:

Leo mentions that while Erik may have succumbed to the telepathic attack of Professor X, it was only after a lengthy battle with a bunch of low tier X-Men.

This is true, and a fair point to raise.

Erik was tired after a match with the X-Men, and his willpower fell short.

God-Like Cable spent his entire career as a character soothing the pain of the entire planet. He telekinetically levitated his utopian island, even while sleeping. He mentally probed the minds of the entire planet.

He rerouted enough water to flood half the Sahara. Kicked loggers out of the rainforests. Stopped the white blood count deterioration of every AIDS victim in Africa. Straightened the leaning tower of Pisa.

On a daily basis he stopped 14 individual acts of terrorism, 1100 attempts of murder, 7 thousand car accidents.

Magneto was tired after a battle with the X-Men. Cable spent his career doing that every single day, and then went head to head with the Silver Surfer.

Magneto starts fresh.

So does Cable.

Don Corleone
Originally posted by Existere
Ok, firstly, huge apologies to Leo. I didn't expect my business trip to keep me as preoccupied as it did, but such is life or whatever.

If we want to talk about extending the match, I'd be game for discussion. I'm not super keen on a one-week match after all.

I'll be making my first post shortly.

I don't see a problem if the judges don't mind. Besides, you did take this match before your 30 days . People should understand you weren't given enough time to plan.

Endless Mike
I don't see a problem with it

I'm cool with it as well.

POSTS 4 & 5

okay, so now that things are finally officially underway, let's see what's to be seen shall we....

laughing out loud i don't necessarily disagree, btw...

cool. glad you agree.

and.....hrm. we were getting on so well up to the above point. looks like we need to take a gander at that fatal attractions arc to get a better handle on exactly what happened there....

first, THIS is how "difficult" it was for magneto to handle the entire team of x-men:

without any effort, magneto prevented the entire team--jean and xavier among them--from accessing their power. he did this in passing. note, too, his dialogue at top of the page: "My near discorporation... has left me more powerful than even i imagined!"

how powerful was he now?

powerful enough to bring avalon down into earth's atmosphere (and in doing so cause global havoc in the way of storms and upheavals) and hold it all together with his WILL POWER!
so, he managed to not only depower all the x-men (again, including xavier himself) but he ALSO did so, all the while keeping avalon together--while it was on earth AND in orbit!!-- with his power and will!!
eat your heart out providence! laughing out loud

more multi-tasking as we see he also managed to kill senyaka while the x-men were depowered...

so, back to my original reason for looking at fatal attraction--smurph's bringing up the usurpation of his power by xavier and the famous mind-wipe. if you noticed in that first scan, bishop mentions that his power works INVOLUNTARILY. as such, as mags engages in the stereotypical villain speech, bishop was busy draining mags' power until, involuntarily.....

that breaks the lock on their powers and the x-men--including HAVOC--pour their power into bishop....

and yet, before that combined power can be unleashed, one more added touch:

"Ah was supposed to absorb your powers!"

"You did. It just wasn't enough....."

then, after having bishop and rogue both absorb his power, THEN we have this:

notice too, that the blast was from BEHIND and it seems to hit him DIRECTLY--ie, he doesn't seem to have his shield up... and please recall--he is still keeping avalon aloft and together through all of this....

after all that, and while still keeping avalon together, THEN charles was able to enter magneto's mind and use magneto's power to actually HURL AVALON INTO SPACE!

again, a remarkable display of magneto's power.

so, yeah. there was a little context missing. smile

now, the mind wipe:

couple things of note in the above scan--it took a combined jean/xavier to even try and enter his mind, and they were UNABLE to do so, UNTIL gambit's attack.... (note--xavier was weaker than normal because he was expending psi energy to work his exoskeleton...)

oddly enough, like bishop's attack, gambit's cards seem to actually STRIKE magneto's face. it is because of that distraction that jean/xavier can finally enter his mind. even then he tries fighting, but they use his fears and doubts against him and THAT is why their assault is successful.

throughout the conclusion, it is hammered home that magneto is doubting himself, discouraged by the constant betrayals. his mind is weak and vulnerable BECAUSE of that plot point. he is so torn by his position, that even when he faces a ready-to-kill logan, he HOLDS BACK and HESITATES:

so distracted is magneto, that logan's claws actually strike his body tearing open his armor and seriously injuring magneto. enraged, he goes on to rip the adamantium from logan, and it's after that that xavier--already having a foothold in his mind--performs his mindwipe. note too, that when he does, magneto no longer wears his helmet....

so. yeah. to reiterate: context-- it's our friend.

hmm, wonder why he didn't bother with it....?

ewww......don't think so.....

reading minds globally is not a big deal. ionized the atmosphere means....what exactly? what is it's practical use? and if he's reading minds globally, following discussions is a natural corollary. soothing pain (and when he did this is it was his SOLE/ONLY focus) seems more a feat of tk than tp, but either way, pretty impressive. no more so than some of mags' feats, but still, a great feat.

correct. and that lack of feats makes your stance regarding cable/xavier unsupportable.


the only reason i brought it up was to illustrate that it seemed xavier could have penetrated cable's mind had he really tried. that speaks directly to their comparative power levels. i'm also not convinced that his actual POWER LEVELS were increased by the hf. it's important to know he had ALREADY reached godhood. he simply lacked the endurance to USE his power the way he wanted to. the power to read minds globally and do everything else was ALREADY there when he spoke to xavier--he simply couldn't DO all the things because he grew tired and burned out. i guess i'm saying the hf allowed him greater SCOPE with his powers, as opposed to DEPTH.

one would THINK.....

WOW! that IS awesome. but he WAS stopped, a couple times, by cerebra. imagine how powerful one has to be actually ENTER the mind of someone using cerebra.....?!

one would think....

but......holding. smile

hmm, i have an issue with this line of thought. he WAS scanning the minds of everyone, but, it does not necessarily follow that if he redirected that scattered tp and focused it, that he would be this uber-unstoppable force! the proof is clear: xavier and emma and sersi. ALL have exhibited global levels of tp, and yet, when they gather and focus we have SEEN their feats. imagine for a second if all you saw was a single scan of xavier sifting through all the minds on the planet, picking and choosing who he wants to use--skip it, read the scan:

actively chooses people only of goodwill and focuses all the consciousnesses into ONE. at LEAST as impressive as soothing the dying..... anyway, point is, if THAT was the only scan you ever saw of xavier, you would say, "OMGZZ! IMAGINE IF HE FOCUSED ALL HIS POWER ON TRYING TO GET INTO JUST ONE!!"

but we know that SCOPE does not translate necessarily into DEPTH--or at least it does not do so via any direct correlation.

iow--just becasue cable could read minds and sooth the dying of the world, does NOT mean he is beyond xavier.

i submit YOU MAD!

okay, so, let's go back to smurph's direct comparison wherein he used emma with cerebra as a measure of cable's tp power. recall cerebra DID block him, and recall too there is no reason to believe that had he tried to focus his tp, he would have been able to break through cerebra's shielding. that reasoning is faulty for reasons i outlined above. but.... smurph DID make a big deal about cerebra, so, let's run with that. smile

it's likely we've all seen this famous feat of cassandra nova:

damnation!! that IS impressive. cassie was a beast, no doubt about it. now, you're probably wondering--leo, what the hell are you doing showing a scan of cassandra nova pwning a cerebra amped xavier??

well, glad you asked. heh

cassie took over xavier's body and was doing all kinds of bad things with it. after a lengthy arc(s), xavier's mind ended up residing in jean for a time--a jean who was once again manifesting PHOENIX powers. cassie's goal was to get to cerebra and use it to contact the minds of all mutants in the world so she bad things to them and with them. but jean has a plan. let's see what happens, and just how cassie met her end....

seriously. no expression think about what happened there. not only was charles' mind too much for phoenix (or ANYONE) to hold, it survived being shattered and placed separately in the minds of every mutant in the world! as if that alone wasn't enough, once it was reconstituted, CHARLES WAS ABLE TO GET INTO THE MIND OF CASSANDRA NOVA WHO WAS USING CEREBRA AND REGAIN HIS BODY! (hope everyone read that last part carefully......)

and you heard what smurph said about cerebra.... an absolutely ASTOUNDING matter how you slice it.

xavier ENTERING cassie's mind while she is using cerebra>>>>cable being BLOCKED by emma using cerebra

i do? confused not really. my point in drawing all these analogies with xavier is simple--xavier is freakin UBER. low herald? doubtful. high herald is a lot closer. hell, thanos even used a comatose prof to battle the goddess in the infinity crusade! it came down to xavier, thanos and warlock against the goddess. pretty good company..... charles is a PROVEN UBER TP, with hundreds of showings, and i showed that mags can resist even XAVIER! the times he fell were littered with context, and in the final showdown, he didn't even have his helmet! and THIS little OFFICIAL retcon only serves to STRENGTHEN mags' defenses further:

clear proof that, currently, his helmet DOES make him proof against psi's..... factor in the helmet, his will and the psi-inhibiting nature of his powers..... take cable's utterly UNPROVEN level of tp, and i see no reason at all to assume cable's tp will be a difference maker here.

so, again, his tk won't be enough to get through my shields, and his tp is unproven, and we've SEEN what it takes a PROVEN uber telepath (with far more and far GREATER displays of tp) to get through mags defenses.

ON TOP OF THAT: mags doesn't even HAVE to no-sell the tp--he only has to hold out long enough to use his powers to literally RIP cable to pieces! even if you feel cable CAN pierce all of mags' defenses, you THEN have to somehow justify that he can do so BEFORE mags can take control of his blood,block access to his powers, or rip his body apart. recall that while in direct mental combat with xavier, mags--WHILE BATTLING--ripped apart and controlled xavier's chair from hundreds of miles away! no reason at all to suppose that IF cable were somehow able to get into mags' mind (a conclusion that lacks support to reach) that he STILL couldn't hold cable off long enough to UTTERLY **** up his metallic body or blood. the virus in cable makes him even MORE susceptible to mags's control.


--mags' mental defenses (including his recently shown psi-proof helmet) are too great for cable to penetrate, or at least to penetrate easily. mags would have LOTS of time to both fend off the assault and destroy cable's body, take control of him via his blood, use his blood to prevent him from accessing his powers, or simply pull all the blood (and thereby his hf) out of his body. CABLE HAS A MASSIVE VULNERABILITY BEING MADE OF METAL. this gives mags a QUICK way to win this battle. cable HAS no 'quick' way, or really any proven way to win this match. and please don't forget that scan i showed in my first post:

mags absolutely NO SELLS emma, another global tp. when he focuses, his shields appear to be absolutely impregnable--physically and psionically.

--mags' shields render cable's tk useless

--the battlefield is GREATLY suited to mags, as the dust of the moon is heavily loaded with iron and it can be used to coat his tk shields to blind cable. the mantle below the crust is ALSO heavy with iron. easily manipulated. mags could literally open a volcano under cable (as he has done on panel). this could distract him, and again allow mags the chance to destroy his body.

--what if mags became completely invisible and undetectable? since cable can't get through his mental defenses, an invisible magneto could take his time and do....whatever he wanted to do to cable. this also highlights the power of his shields:
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Magneto in The Vision and Scarlet Witch Mini

Magneto is enshrouded in an energy corona that allows him to travel vast distances of airless space.
The same energies allow him to cloak himself. He goes undetected, not even Blackbolts energy acute senses and Lockjaw who can track a spoor across the cosmos can sense him.
With a simple Gesture Mags places a very complex shield around Crystals quarters.

- Karnak cannot detect any fault in Magnetos shield.
- Gorgon fails to break it
- Vision can't phase though it
- Wanda's hexes have no effect on it
- No sound can pass through it

Afterwards Magneto reveals that he's their father and holds baby Luna...a happy ending for a change.

thanks again ec!

--or perhaps magneto opens a wormhole BEHIND cable then uses the iron-rich dust of the moon to makea huge hand and simply swats him through it. the other end of the wormhole could open in the CORE OF THE MOON (i like that one... heh)

--fact is, mags has LOADS of options in this battle and cable has next to none. you heard smurph--it's tp or bust for him. not a great option when your boy has next to no tp feats..... in contrast, mags has TONS of available options and cable has a weakness that all his power can't hide or lessen.

laughing out loud

I like debating Leo. He makes me look forward to replying (and not in a venomous way) which is a rare quality for a tourney match.


In this post I'm going to tackle the part of the debate that rests on all issues telepathic.

Smurph Post 2: The Telepathy Debacle

As I see it, here are the major issues:

Xavier vs. Cable

This is, of course, the major comparison that Leo wants to draw. Why, I'm not super sure. Xavier's record against Magneto - erasing his mind, controlling his mind, having Erik state Charles could easily enter his thoughts - are not really falling in Leo's favor. Yeah, Leo can attempt to brush away these instances. We saw him draw out in detail what a grueling battle Mags went through in Fatal Attractions. But at the end of the day, he's up against someone who dueled Surfer on even ground while performing global telepathy (and having done that for days). That's sort of the bottom line here, and no matter how Leo props up Magneto's fight against the X-Men, that's still something that can't be ignored.

Incidentally, the X-Men in a wide variety of incarnations have defeated Magneto over and over again.

Here's the X-Men getting decimated by their simulation of Cable 75 times in a row with even Wolverine losing all hope for victory:

Thanks Id for the scans, you're a rockstar. smile

(Cable DID go on to beat the X-Men with utter ease, as well as Six Pack, while simultaneously holding up Providence, performing global telepathy and immediately prior to dueling the Silver Surfer. Magneto, on the other hand, got beat up by Rogue and Bishop, then stabbed by Wolverine. Har har. )

Leo would like us to believe that Xavier's offensive telepathy is better than God-Like Cable's offensive telepathy. This is, of course, ridiculous.

I've already talked about how Xavier's peer, Emma Frost, was facing utter collapse by simply being near Cable's mind despite having Cerebra at her side.

This isn't the only comparison that exists however:

X-Man, pre-shaman. Xavier ran from him. Cable withstood an onslaught that put Xavier on his knees, and actually bested Nate.

Stryfe, Cable's genetic duplicate, made Xavier his slave. Cable, however, mindraped Stryfe, Gambit and Bishop (there's that name again!) with utter ease in the exact same arc.

And, I shouldn't need to say it, but for emphasis: this was before Cable began to harness his true potential, before he got Deadpool's healing factor, before he became a god.

As direct comparisons go, Cable is the superior in skill and (depending on the version) in power. Which makes sense, really. Xavier may be a mutant leader and a powerful mind, but Cable is a mutant who was bred to be the most powerful mind, who has been leading a war since the day he was born. As experience and genetics go, so do skill and power, and Cable comes out on top in this comparison.

Cassandra Nova

I shouldn't really need to address this, but while I'm covering telepathy:

Originally posted by leonidas

xavier ENTERING cassie's mind while she is using cerebra>>>>cable being BLOCKED by emma using cerebra

A hilariously disingenuous comparison.

Cable's mind nearly crushed Emma's shields without him directing any attention towards her whatsoever.

Xavier got mindraped by Cassandra Nova while he was using cerebra, then he got mindraped by her while she destroyed his team, then she went on to destroy the Shi'Ar. Then he split his mind into thousands of pieces and hid in them via Cerebra, and managed to successfully ambush Cassandra Nova's mind.... but didn't actually do anything but cause her to jump into a different body.

So no, I don't really think the second feat is in any way superior to the first.

What was that you were saying about context, Leo? haermm

Magneto's anti-telepathy EM powerz

Magneto once reversed the poles on the earth. These powers hampered Xavier and Jean's global telepathy, thus leaving them to use Cerebra to access the mutant minds across the world.

Incidentally, this also hindered the vaunted Cassandra Nova.

This was still in affect when Cable, in god-form, accessed not only the mutant minds but every single mind across the planet, read every thought and soothed the pain of every dying person. For days on end.

Yet more proof that Xavier falls hilariously short of God-Like Cable and that Magneto has squat to offer against Nate's telepathy.

Moving on...

Scope vs. Depth

This is Leo's argument to counter Cable's stupidly impressive telepathy feats that he performed globally, as well as to argue against Cable's outright accidental trouncing of Emma Frost.

Basically, you buy into his argument if you believe that there is no difference between Cable crushing Emma's shields without even realizing she's there, and Cable directing his entire attention towards Emma. Further, you buy into his argument if you believe that Magneto's telepathic shields are actually superior to those of Emma w/ Cerebra, and that they are so superior that unlike Emma, who devoted all her attention to shielding her team, Magneto's shields (powered not by meta human ability, but by willpower and hope) would be so strong that they could hold up while devoting attention to battling somebody who effectively dueled Surfer.

We've seen Cable without god-like power show significant ( > Xavier) skill in telepathic combat, and we've seen Cable with god-like power show significant ( > Xavier) skill with global telepathy. Cable doesn't have to choose between scope and depth, he possesses both, and, as Emma Frost will tell you, uses both simultaneously.


While, I've pretty much beaten this point to death, but one last go: Cable has shown significant skill across his career, and frankly Xavier doesn't compare. Against Stryfe, against X-Man, against Emma Frost or against Magneto's anti-TP EM manipulation, Cable has the clear cut superior showings, and those are almost all without God-Like Power. Xavier is hilariously outgunned, and Xavier actually has a winning record against Erik.

Magneto, meanwhile, has to devote his entire attention to fighting off Xavier. He was distracted enough by Bishop, Rogue and Wolverine that Xavier actually broke through and utterly mind-raped him. Now he's up against a man that was simultaneously outputting >Xavier telepathy while dueling the Silver Surfer while levitating Providence (Magneto simply kept his rock in orbit, with the help of Earth's gravitation), etc, etc.

Basically, Magneto is out of his league, up against a simply superior threat. This is reinforced when we look at his long, losing history against the X-Men, and compare that to the battles the X-Men had against a simulation of God-Like Cable: they got utterly decimated 75 battles in a row.

My next post will get into how Cable's telekinesis is what Magneto's EM manipulation would like to be, and the last points that I'd like to throw down to hammer this match home.


i'll give this post a tombstone piledriver on the weekend if you manage to get your concluding post up and running. if not i'll just wait for you to make your conclusion and i'll wrap things up. if you feel you'd like the last post, no worries, make it whenever.

Between the new argumentation that I want to bring into the debate and the points of yours that I want to deconstruct, I probably have 1-2 posts worth of material that I want to add. Because I'm going to bring up stuff that we haven't touched on yet, I want to give you appropriate response time, so last post goes to you at your leisure sir.

Originally posted by Existere
Between the new argumentation that I want to bring into the debate and the points of yours that I want to deconstruct, I probably have 1-2 posts worth of material that I want to add. Because I'm going to bring up stuff that we haven't touched on yet, I want to give you appropriate response time, so last post goes to you at your leisure sir.

much obliged. can't wait to see what you've got up your sleeve. smile

I saw something about a Tombstone Piledriver. Not having read anything yet, I expect this match to play out exactly like Wrestlemania. Don't disappoint.

no expression

Smurph Post 3: The Big Picture

Hey guys, I apologize in advance if this seems kinda rushed. If I were a responsible man, I'd be packing up all my bags and heading to my first day of work early for a good impression. Instead I'm debating comic book characters. Priorities are a win. haermm

What I want to do with this post is get some perspective on everything that would be happening in this battle. I've talked a lot about what I think is at the center of the match: Cable's telepathy vs. Magneto's defense. While I think that's the core issue, however, there's a lot of other stuff on top, beneath and around that.

EM Manipulation and God-Like Telekinesis

Leo talks a lot about 'scope vs. depth' when he wants to attack Cable's telepathic superiority, but it's a funny talk to talk given how he boasts about Magneto's EM manipulation.

The famed bullet feat is impressive, sure. If Leo's going to talk about how scope doesn't translate into power though, then it certainly hurts his feats more than Cable's. The bullet itself was big, but not incredibly so - no more so than Avalon or Providence, for instance. Additionally, the scans actually talk about how as opposed to manipulating the metal of the bullet, he's pulling at its' cargo, and the unique properties of the phased construct. All in all I'm not really sure what Magneto's actually doing, but for sure the most impressive part of the feat is that he did so from so far away, which has absolutely zero application in this match.

Cable, on the flip side, went toe to toe with Surfer using only his telekinesis. He showed he could match a herald of Galactus both in finesse (subatomically manipulating everything they passed by to repair the world as they fought) and in brute force (outright breaking Surfer's board like a motherf*cking badass).

Leo claims that Magneto's EM manipulation would have a detrimental effect on Cable, but he hasn't really shown this other than giving feats with scope, but lacking depth. Cable's used his TK to manipulate energy, make shields and perform worldwide biological manipulation (when he modified a virus and infected the world, turning everybody pink... he showed he could undo it with a snap of his fingers).

Pretty frankly, his fight against Surfer was a greater use of TK in battle than Magneto, though versatile and impressive, has ever shown. People love Mags (myself included) because he uses his powers so effectively, breaching the traditional limits of magnetism. Cable, however, possesses no limits. He has Magneto's powers, plus every other kind of tele-ism, and then his godlike telepathy to boot. In short, Cable's telekinesis is what Magneto's EM manipulation would like to be when it grows up, and there is no way that Magneto could utilize his powers in battle that Cable, having shown subatomic manipulation in battle could not counter.

I think Leo wanted us to really buy into Erik being the 'master of magnetism', and ride out on the fact that Cable has a metal arm to manipulate. Cable, having performed subatomic manipulation on that arm every moment of his life since he was infected with the TO virus, will not be an easy target. If Magneto really tries to do harm to Cable's body, however, it's not really going to even bother Cable, bringing me to my second bullet...

Deadpool's Healing Factor

I probably don't need to post too much here. Basically, the only way for Magneto to win this battle is to knock Cable out. Cable's shields, TK and telepathy already make this super difficult for Erik to even attempt, but any damage he could manage to inflict would be immediately repaired.

Deadpool is a mutant that has healed himself from a puddle of goo. Cable has his healing factor in his God-Like incarnation.

The Big Picture

I know I've harped on this point enough already, but here goes one more time:

God-Like Cable performed a ludicrous amount of feats in the span of days.

He rerouted enough water to flood half the Sahara. Kicked loggers out of the rainforest. Stopped the white blood count deterioration of every AIDS victim in Africa. Straightened the leaning tower of Pisa.

On a daily basis he stopped 14 individual acts of terrorism, 1100 attempts of murder, 7 thousand car accidents.

Every day he output enough telepathic power to accidentally ruin Emma Frost and enough telekinetic power to levitate Providence.

He then showed that his leftover power was enough to give Surfer a run for his money.

His ability to multitask is nothing short of absolutely awesome. He starts fresh here, and will not tire out.

Magneto, while a multitasker and powerful in his own right, has never had such a display of power. When performing his big feats like the bullet feat, it's taken so much concentration and energy that his nose was bleeding the entire time and he was spent from the exhaustion. Fending off Professor X consistently took all of his attention, enough so that Wolverine stabbing Magneto allowed X to get through.

Cable could attempt zero telepathy other than simply having his mind present, and Magneto's shields would be hard pressed to hold up, as shown by Emma. Should Cable direct any attention whatsoever towards Magneto, Erik's concentration and willpower is divided and his shields short out, as does his mind shortly after.

The big picture is that all of this is happening at once and that Magneto, with his mental shields being fueled by concentration and constant energy, will not be able to hold up against somebody of Cable's caliber. The fact that Cable doesn't even need to worry about his own person, since he possesses DP's healing factor, is the icing on the cake. He can focus almost the entirety of his considerable energy and power on the offensive, both telepathically and telekinetically.

Magneto couldn't deal with that tactic when it was Professor X, Wolverine, Bishop and Rogue. He falls in this battle.

nice. should make for a fun reply. big grin

you good now, or did you still need to post? if you've wrapped things up, i can probably address these posts tomorrow. if you still need more, no worries. just let me know when i can go ahead and post a conclusion.

all righty, so getting to the end now. i'll reply to some of the points smurph made in the last couple posts then share some final thoughts

well, the reason why i drew that comparison is because xavier is widely considered to be the most powerful mind on the planet. i showed some of his feats to illustrate his power, then showed that despite that, the only reason he is ever able to defeat magneto is because he has help from team or plot or both. in a straight 1on1 match up, xavier has NEVER defeated magneto. even when mags was caught off guard and without his helmet he defended against xavier's assault with only his will power. i showed that in one instance it took jean and xavier to break through a DISTRACTED magneto's mind. even phoenix couldn't get through his shields with a tk/tp combo assault. and THEN i showed newer evidence relating to his helmet and its ability to protect vs psi attacks. xavier didn't even bother to ATTEMPT to attack mags until AFTER he removed his helmet.

on even ground? hrm. even ground would imply the battle was close, or in doubt in some way. that battle was neither. ss was NEVER in any danger during that battle at all, nor is it said nate was using his telepathy during that fight. given that he was dying, my thought would be that no, he probably wasn't. there is also the fact that his helping those who were dying was his ONLY focus while he performed that feat (as i showed earlier).
i showed mags EFFORTLESSLY defeating the team of x-men by simply not allowing them to access their powers, and he even defeated a team that had phoenix. beating the x-men has always been easy for mags. his loyalties are often divided however and as much as he battles them, he respects them and has no desire to kill them.

none of those issues are considerations here.

'facing utter collapse'. no expression disingenuous indeed....

seriously? in the first scan she has a couple drops of sweat on her forehead then....nothing. so much so she's actually clowning with logan! lol we clearly have different definitions of 'near collpase'. in the second scan we see she is not even WEARING cerebra! yet she talks as though her shields are still holding--WITHOUT it.

er, no he didn't. in fact he didn't really even try attacking nate. nate was uber, no doubt (but drawing comparisons between cable and x-man is ridiculous for loads of reasons) but xavier only let nate THINK he defeated him otherwise nate would have burned out or shut down. xavier never really engaged him and ALLOWED him to THINK he'd won. big difference.

well, that was a display of TK not TP so.....really kinda moot. besides, THAT cable was NOT just the regular cable:

co-opted a mind maybe even GREATER than his own..... tch. smile

well, i think we've seen that smurph MAY have overstated that fact, slightly.... we also have the fact that xavier has done MORE than this version of cable, with greater feats to show. that may seem unfair, and yet that is part of the disadvantage he faces with this version--extremely limited feats. we know that even a FOCUSED xavier (who has easily read the minds of MORE people than are on our planet) was unable to get through a prepared magneto's mind. we saw his shields were so great he utterly no-sold emma. smurph wants us to believe that FOCUS would lead to greater showing, but that absolutely DOES NOT FOLLOW. we've seen a focused emma, a focused sersi and a focused xavier. why would a focused cable be any different?
bear in mind judges--while preconceived notions and intuition play a role in deciding the outcome of these character battles ON PANEL PROOF must still be the deciding factor. we know cable has some good feats, but magneto's are as impressive. cable has good feats, but xavier's are as impressive and more so imo. all we really know is cable was definitely below (quite a bit below) the ss and was never able to actually mount a serious threat to norrin. breaking his board was cool and all, but did nothing.

well, close..... i would invite judges to go back to the cassie scans for a correct summation of that event. which is STILL (imo) xavier's best feat. maybe. and by causing her to jump into a new body, it led directly to cassie's defeat.

well, if that's all..... the moon is 6x smaller than earth and IT has poles too..... nothing to stop him reversing the poles on an object so small.

heh. again with the over-estimation. 'accidental trouncing'. again we have different definitions.... cable's ONLY feat is global TP. xavier's feats are better. he has the very telling NON-feat of NOT having engaged ss in TP battle. wonder why he didn't try that.....

lol willpower AND his own power AND his psi proof helmet which seemingly (currently) offers far greater protection than in the past. the final point which i have not brought up, deals PRECISELY with with mags' OWN meta-human PSI abilities. these have been documented NUMEROUS times. from his sending tp messages to tp talents, from sensing dreams and even going astral. his own minor psi talents ALSO aid in protecting him from tp assault.

just one more avenue of protection.

smurph is making a huge deal of this tp issue because he knows his tk will be effectively newtered by my shields. in effect, if he can't convince you he can beat me quickly, via tp, he can't really win this fight imo. in order, again, to believe that, you have to believe he can literally OVERWHELM magneto to the point where mags can't use his powers to affect cable's METALLIC body at all. it's true cable can keep the t-o virus in check by himself, but if mags is controling it, forcing him to FIGHT to control the t-o, suddenly he's left open to a variety of attacks.

well, we don't know he was still using tp as he fought, but we do know it wasn't much of a duel with ss. cable was very clearly inferior to ss. and mags actually brought avalon into earth's atmosphere as he depowered the x-men and it was at least the size of providence imo.....
so, really, nothing too new here. him saying cable's global tp feat>>>all other tp feats, when really that is nowhere close to accurate. even in my first post, did xavier seem intimidated by cable in the least??

mags has dozens of great tp-resistant showings against KNOWN/PROVEN/UBER telepaths whose feats surpass cable's. he simply cannot support the stance he is attempting to take. it's part of the disadvantage of having so few feats to draw from. mag's otoh has dozens of great showings, some as impressive as anything nate did. he also has the additional luxury of battling someone he has effortlessly crushed in the past, and who has the ultimate vulnerability against magneto--a mostly metallic body. there is absolutely ZERO proof cable's tp could so completely overwhelm magneto that he would be unable to defend and reply to the attack. and since tp is his only real avenue, that leaves him in a world of trouble.....

get to his next post soon.

so, let's finish. smile

Originally posted by Existere
Smurph Post 3: The Big Picture

Hey guys, I apologize in advance if this seems kinda rushed. If I were a responsible man, I'd be packing up all my bags and heading to my first day of work early for a good impression. Instead I'm debating comic book characters. Priorities are a win. haermm

laughing out loud
i bet you only got the job because you put you're a kmc champion on that resume! or was it digi's reference letter??

only because he showed great scope with his global tp. but as i showed repeatedly, scope does not translate to depth.

i'm not really disagreeing with this assessment. i showed it TO demonstrate that even the SCOPE of his powers were equal to cable's. in fact the bullet feat showed a greater scope of power than anything cable did imo. reread that feat from one of my first posts. it was in deep space when he summoned it and he brought it all the way to earth at nearly the speed of light after simply memorizing the unique metals in kitty's phased body.

and he did this while he set up all his shields--even psychic shields that according to emma were "practically impregnable". an absolutely amazing feat by ANY measure.

i know smurph has said this a bunch of times--and i would too were i him since there is such a dearth of feats to call upon--but again, this battle was never for a second in doubt. he blasted ss away once and that was it then ss tired of it and one-shotted him. does anyone really think that had he stopped holding up that island (something he did while SLEEPING) would have made ANY difference in the fight? really?

no expression
i'd say his em manip had something of a detrimental effect in that case.


logan's healing factor is pretty good too, but we all saw what happened when mag's ripped the ADAMANTIUM out of him. logan nearly died from that. and logan even has actual FEATS! heh cable's use of the hf was to keep his virus in check while he used his full power. as far as anyone knows, that was all it really did. he got a NOSEBLEED from stopping some missiles. and that healing factor CERTAINLY didn't do much of anything at all to help the mess that the ss left him in......

the hf was TAXED to the limit and we never saw even a SINGLE feat from it. to say it worked on cable like it did on deadpool is....ridiculous. and the fact that it was basically a footnote to smurph's argument shows that even he has no faith in that particular line of reasoning. something like that requires at least SOME on panel proof. the hf has exactly ZERO feats aside from allowing him to USE his powers for longer periods of time, we cannot pretend to be able to judge how it would have worked for cable. lack of proof and feats MUST have an impact at some point.

logan regenerated from a skeleton. didn't help him. didn't save him from being one-shotted by ss.

and that is about it.

so let's do a quick recap and sum up:

cables's tp--we've seen mag's is capable of creating a practically impregnable defense if focused. his helmet currently grants greater protection than it ever has (thank you movie mags!). he's a latent psychic and has one of the premiere wills in comics. he has defeated and resisted some of the greatest minds in comics and xavier has more and better ON PANEL feats than cable does. no limits fallacy not withstanding, i see no way cable can take this with his tp. again, if you feel he can, he needs to so quickly and so utterly overwhelm mags that he has NO CHANCE to retaliate by taking advantage of cable's numerous vulnerabilities. and given mag's own feats and defenses against tp, there is NO evidence to suggest he is capable of that kind of overwhelming assault.

cable's tk--even smurph barely touched on this because he knows his tk vs my shields is a no-win for him and mag's shields have stopped uber tk in the past (the phoenix battle is just one of the more famous examples). his tk is essentially neutered here, and given that smurph's whole focus lay on tp, (by his own admission) it's obvious smurph agrees with me.

sooooooo....... that leaves tp or nothing. he's essentially putting all his chips on his global tp feat and that single scan of emma sweating, and commenting that her shields were barely holding while she was NOT wearing cerebra. that is simply NOT enough to go on given the level of cable's opponent and his many many feats.

otoh, magneto has a variety of offensive avenues to choose from. the easiest and surest way is to simply attack cable's obvious vulnerabilities--namely his metal body or the t-o virus that courses through his body. both can be used to utterly devastating effect. he could attempt a shut down of cable's powers like he did to all the x-men, xavier included, by controlling the iron in cable's blood. he could literally PULL all the blood from his body, or institute a cerebral hemorrage. he can call upon the battlefield to assist him if need be and open a crevice to the mantle and cause a volcano, or use the dust to blind or distract. if he can get cable to drop his shield for an instant the dust could be devastating. he could attempt a wormhole and force cable through it into the iron core of the moon. he could turn invisible (his helmet should render him psi invisible as well, at least for a short time) and he could do damage that way. there are other courses, but you get the message. cable is limited to his tp. mags has dozens of ways to win this match.

intuition can inferred power can only carry one so far. on panel feats and their dearth must play the dominant role in these debates. in that area, mags is overwhelmingly superior.

thanks for taking time to read through this and thanks to smurph for (what i hope) was an entertaining match up.


This is done then? Will judge, tomorrow if I can, the 4th if not.

yep. done. way to blaze a trail digi. lol

I'll be having my vote in later tonight. thumb up


Everybody lies.

I've read the match. I'll post later today. I have to sit on this one.

Originally posted by Digi
Everybody lies.

i actually laughed out loud at that.

I've read the match. I'll post later today. I have to sit on this one.

cool. thumb up


Smurph, you did me no favors trying to judge this. Your character is probably more powerful. God-Cable's implied power is off the charts. It's just hard to prove that with so few "God" feats, and not knowing how expended he was when he fought Surfer. Cable's a good pick, it's just frustrating from my perspective.

Leo won the TP discussion in my mind. You guys went on about it for a while, probably too long, but proving that it would constitute a win or a big hindrance is a taller order than proving that Magneto has enough defense against it to remove it as a deciding factor. Everyone mentioned has uber feats, and Chuck's been around long enough to have bad ones as well (same with Magneto), but the whole "Is Nate > Charles" became a moot point to me once it was established that they're both very uber, and comparative analyses are somewhat arbitrary.

Outside of that protracted discussion, I'm a little unclear how either is planning to kill the other. If someone had gone more overtly offensive, they probably would have won it decisively.

Nate does have metal in him. When called upon, Magneto hasn't really shown limits to his nuance with EM manipulation when it's in his wheelhouse. Voting leo. Sorry Smurph. I promise I'm not voting against you on purpose. I appreciated the music video with your first post.

Endless Mike
Might as well get my vote in too. I'm going with Smurph/Existere. Overall I feel he presented his case better, and I really couldn't see Mags doing as well against Surfer as Cable did.

Although Leo exposed the folly of some of the tp arguments Smurph was making, it was still impressive for Emma's shields to be barely holding against Cable's passive tp field, even without Cerebra. Sure, Magneto can block Emma's tp but IMO that's not as impressive as her struggling to keep his tp field out when it was affecting the whole world at once and not even concentrated on her.

Also part of Erik's tp defense comes from his helmet which Cable would probably be able to destroy/remove with his powers, thus making the tp assault easier. I also agree with the part about Cable having finer control over his tk and matter manipulation.

It would be a good fight but in the end I think Cable wins.

So sorry about holding this up, guys. Family decided to arrive unannounced from out of town so I've been juggling being a good brother/uncle and being a nerd. stick out tongue

Anyway, I've got to say, this is the toughest match I've had to judge yet, both in terms of characters and the debaters handling them. Magneto and Cable are both highly impressive and versatile beings with loads of showings and feats to go with them, and Leo and Existere are two of the best debaters KMC has.

To me, this match boiled down to electromagnetism versus telekinesis and the applications and scope of power each possess. Telepathy sort of became a moot point to me due to Magneto's helmet as well as his mental resistance feats; personally I don't think Cable would be able to destroy or otherwise remove Mags' helmet and overpower his mind for a win.

But the level of sub-atomic manipulation and scale Cable is working on in his "God" mode is another story via telekinesis. I feel that Cable's TK is strong enough to counter Erik's magnetic manipulation (as well as contest control over his own body) and his overt power is likewise enough to best Erik, albeit in a difficult manner.

To that end, I'm voting Existere, but God damn it, Leo, you made it hard as hell.

....not like that. sneer

Naija boy
Alright so wow this was a toughie. I went back on forth on this a bunch of times. I believe cable is the more powerful character but the protracted TP discussion really did not do him too many favours in this case as I believe Leo presented a better case in that regard.

On the other hand I was not really convinced of what magneto was going to be able to do to harm cable and his schtick as the master of magnetism really did not automatically make me think he could easily manipulate cables metal arm or blood and I found many of such suggestions fantastical and somewhat of a stretch. From what was displayed, cables tk appe ared to be his stronger attribute and quite frankly looked to be able to at the very least counter mags attempted manipulations.

In general though I believe leo presented a great case i was still left thinking that magneto would be largely on the defensive end for a bulk of the fight both physically and psionically so I'm going with SMURPH/EXISTERE. If in addition to all his magnificent defence I had perceived a concrete and effective offensive strategy against cable I would have probably gone the other way.

Blair Wind
I know my vote is not needed but I'm giving it anyway.

I'm voting Smurph. Not really because I want to, but because Leo, IMO, got distracted in trying to prove that TP was useless (it is - especially if he can keep the helmet on) and that he can out-power Cable (he can't) instead of bringing up every single piece of evidence - of which there is a lot - stating that all psionic energy in the MU runs through electro-magnetic fields (starting with Magneto and using other sources - ie: Iron Man, as evidence).

What does it matter how powerful Cable is if he can't bring all that power to bear?

With that said, I have to give it to Smurph because of the TK alone. I don't buy a lot of the TP arguments or at least as solidly as you portray them. But I do agree with the fact that Cable's overall more powerful with his TK than Magneto is with his Magnetism (control over everything > control over metal).

Well apparently I'm wrong. embarrasment

Grats Smurph. I'd say you have a comfortable hold on the division now. And I may need to reassess my estimation of Jesus-Cable. You've been stomping some strong debaters with strong combatants.

c'est la vie. i knew (in fact told digi) that beating cable with mags was a long shot. ftr i also think cable is the more powerful of the 2 and is, imo, the most powerful character that can still fit in this tier. i applauded smurph's choice when he first picked him. anyway, i obviously disagree with some of the assessments above, but since it was 4-1 against, maybe i'm wrong. i had another character in mind before i chose mags that would have been a much better match-up powerwise. so, i'll see if anyone else wants to take a crack at cable and if not, maybe i'll take said character next time....

congrats smurph. the title is yours. for the moment..... shifty

Originally posted by leonidas
ftr i also think cable is the more powerful of the 2 and is, imo, the most powerful character that can still fit in this tier.

See, this makes me think I'm lowballing him. because I knew he was powerful, but never saw him as pushing the upper limit of the tier.


Anyway, yeah, a good job to Smurph for picking him. I still don't think he's untouchable at this tier, but it's clear he's a force.

oh, i don't think he's untouchable digi, just that in terms of sheer power output he may be at the top. like i said, i'll see if anyone else wants to challenge. if not, i have someone in mind that i guess i should have chosen THIS time..... i just really liked mags. sad

oh, and thanks to the judges. i know it can be time-consuming reading through these matches. thumb up

There are quite a few characters, who wield raw power above God Like Cable. Yet are still within the confines Mid Herald hierarchy.

Smurph picked wisely, since Cable is extremely well rounded with a good amount of hax due to his TK/TP.

quite a few in the mid tier who wield MORE power? i'd STRONGLY disagree with that..... but imo there are quite a few characters who, were the tier list redone, would/should be bumped from mid to high herald level. IE--cap marvel, beta ray bill, orion among others. so i can see your point if you're looking at the list as it is now. it's kind of a tricky tier imo to accurately gauge.

teheh. Who knows Cable better than me? Believe me you have choices. What happens when you approach the upper tiers, it becomes a rock-paper-scissor scenario.

Anyways, congrats to Smurph.

fair enuff. thumb up we'll see just how long smurph can hold on. you should challenge him with shaman nate... shifty

Wow, that match did not go down how I expected. I honestly see the match boiling down to a telepathic showdown, but I guess this goes to show I should challenge those assumptions rather than put all my eggs in one basket.

I'm happy I won, but I feel with the way I approached the match, it could have very easily ran the other way.

Thanks a million judges and hosts, you guys rock my sox. Good match Leo!

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