Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

After I saw the 9 reports stemming from Thanos threads, I've decided to close them for a while. I've already warned 1 poster over the reports and several others are close.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t566029.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t566027.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t446183.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565833.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565942.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t404849.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565896.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565903.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565909.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565458.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565957.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565949.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565634.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565944.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565947.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565227.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565843.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565855.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565869.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565841.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565840.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565839.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565818.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565733.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565713.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565753.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t566031.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t566112.html

I'm just going to warn/ban people who make new Thanos threads during the Thanos boycott.

Originally posted by Badabing
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t566029.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t566027.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t446183.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565833.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565942.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t404849.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565896.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565903.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565909.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565458.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565957.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565949.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565634.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565944.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565947.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565227.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565843.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565855.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565869.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565841.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565840.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565839.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565818.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565733.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565713.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565753.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t566031.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t566112.html I've reopened some of the Thanos threads. The sock threads and spite/bait threads are still closed.

I'll be keeping close tabs on Thanos threads for any problems. From the comments in the other thread, I see people have a complaint about fanboyism. The only thing I can do about that is make a call on whether Thanos fans are trolling by going against forum rules so their character will win.

I'll look to see if they're low ball Thanos' opponents, using feats where Thanos is amped, and when there are 3 posters calling for Thanos to win when every other poster knows different.

Bada Makes Terrible Decision
Source: AP

In what is being regarded as the "worst decision in a while," Badabing has re-opened Thanos threads.

"Does he imagine that these schmucks learned something in the three days the threads were closed?" quipped one poster who wished to remain anonymous, but whose name rhymes with "warmash22." "I mean, it's the vs. forum," he said. "What the hell."

"Hey, let's give it a chance guys. I mean, what's the worst that could happen?" asked another poster, who is colloquially referred to as "The Quan."

Many posters cowered in fear or vowed to end their visitations to KMC as a result. Many were the wails heard when the announcement was made, and we can only hope that the good, innocent people of KMC make it through this trying time unscathed. Cries of "Down with Bada!!" and "Bring Back Delph!!" could be heard and seen throughout the site. The requests were generally treated with dismissal and casual laughter by the mods, who are widely thought of as a bunch of douche canoes.

More on this story as it unfolds...

Originally posted by Badabing
OUCH! shocklaugh

Is it time to revisit the CBvF ban on Thanos?! osheet

Yes please.

Originally posted by Digi
Bada Makes Terrible Decision
Source: AP

In what is being regarded as the "worst decision in a while," Badabing has re-opened Thanos threads.

"Does he imagine that these schmucks learned something in the three days the threads were closed?" quipped one poster who wished to remain anonymous, but whose name rhymes with "warmash22." "I mean, it's the vs. forum," he said. "What the hell."

"Hey, let's give it a chance guys. I mean, what's the worst that could happen?" asked another poster, who is colloquially referred to as "The Quan."

Many posters cowered in fear or vowed to end their visitations to KMC as a result. Many were the wails heard when the announcement was made, and we can only hope that the good, innocent people of KMC make it through this trying time unscathed. Cries of "Down with Bada!!" and "Bring Back Delph!!" could be heard and seen throughout the site. The requests were generally treated with dismissal and casual laughter by the mods, who are widely thought of as a bunch of douche canoes.

More on this story as it unfolds...


I know I'm over a year late, but--

Originally posted by Badabing
Is it time to revisit the CBvF ban on Thanos?! osheet Yes. Nothing good has come of a Thanos thread since roughly May 24th, 2007.

Originally posted by Digi
Bada Makes Terrible Decision
Source: AP

In what is being regarded as the "worst decision in a while," Badabing has re-opened Thanos threads.

"Does he imagine that these schmucks learned something in the three days the threads were closed?" quipped one poster who wished to remain anonymous, but whose name rhymes with "warmash22." "I mean, it's the vs. forum," he said. "What the hell."

"Hey, let's give it a chance guys. I mean, what's the worst that could happen?" asked another poster, who is colloquially referred to as "The Quan."

Many posters cowered in fear or vowed to end their visitations to KMC as a result. Many were the wails heard when the announcement was made, and we can only hope that the good, innocent people of KMC make it through this trying time unscathed. Cries of "Down with Bada!!" and "Bring Back Delph!!" could be heard and seen throughout the site. The requests were generally treated with dismissal and casual laughter by the mods, who are widely thought of as a bunch of douche canoes.

More on this story as it unfolds...

Think we should ban Thor, Superman, Hulk and Sentry threads as well.


Forum will do great then!

Originally posted by Badabing
Is it time to revisit the CBvF ban on Thanos?! osheet

I think it's time to revisit the closing of the entire CBvF forum. I think that would get them back into line.

Roughly? That seems pretty specific?

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131102231618/vampirediaries/images/f/f1/Phil-Thumbs-Up.gif

Till the weekend....

Every once in a while it hits me that, these are fictional comic characters causing so much conflict, and certain characters need to be banned to keep complete strangers from wanting to physically kill eachother. Just gotta laugh at how crazy it is. Every once in a while certain posters should just shrug and close the laptop if they see something they don't agree with, life is too short

Originally posted by Badabing
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t566029.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t566027.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t446183.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565833.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565942.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t404849.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565896.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565903.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565909.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565458.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565957.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565949.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565634.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565944.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565947.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565227.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565843.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565855.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565869.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565841.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565840.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565839.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565818.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565733.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565713.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t565753.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t566031.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t566112.html


Now this right here don't make no GOT DARN SENSE.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
Every once in a while it hits me that, these are fictional comic characters causing so much conflict, and certain characters need to be banned to keep complete strangers from wanting to physically kill eachother. Just gotta laugh at how crazy it is. Every once in a while certain posters should just shrug and close the laptop if they see something they don't agree with, life is too short

Wise words.

moSFlvxnbgk

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Think we should ban Hulk threads as well. That's not even something to joke about. ahuhOriginally posted by carver9
Now this right here don't make no GOT DARN SENSE. Carver, when I want your opinion I'll pimp smack it out of you. sneer

Honestly I think it sets a bad standard.

Ban dumb posters, not characters.

^

Agreed. Though just reading Thanos vs threads here, I feel like I have been repeatedly hit buy a sledgehammer. I understand Thanos is suppose to be a powerful character but geez.

Originally posted by Badabing
That's not even something to joke about. ahuh Carver, when I want your opinion I'll pimp smack it out of you. sneer

Ban Bada the tyrant first and see what happens.

Originally posted by Digi


the f--- is going on. LoB is like the angry little dog that demands a fight wherever it goes. Or rather, barks a lot and not much else.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes. Nothing good has come of a Thanos thread since roughly May 2425th, 2007.
Fixed.

Originally posted by Badabing


Digi, the furry lover will pay DEARLY for starting that meme!

Originally posted by Digi
Bada Makes Terrible Decision
Source: AP

In what is being regarded as the "worst decision in a while," Badabing has re-opened Thanos threads.

"Does he imagine that these schmucks learned something in the three days the threads were closed?" quipped one poster who wished to remain anonymous, but whose name rhymes with "warmash22." "I mean, it's the vs. forum," he said. "What the hell."

"Hey, let's give it a chance guys. I mean, what's the worst that could happen?" asked another poster, who is colloquially referred to as "The Quan."

Many posters cowered in fear or vowed to end their visitations to KMC as a result. Many were the wails heard when the announcement was made, and we can only hope that the good, innocent people of KMC make it through this trying time unscathed. Cries of "Down with Bada!!" and "Bring Back Delph!!" could be heard and seen throughout the site. The requests were generally treated with dismissal and casual laughter by the mods, who are widely thought of as a bunch of douche canoes.

More on this story as it unfolds... You may have been correct. mmm

Wow

The Thanos brigade and anti-Thanos brigade got Thanos threads banned again. Good going everybody.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t597271.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t597054.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t597197.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t597002.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t596788.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t597201.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t560530.html

I'll reopen them at some point. And see what Pr wants to do about some of you.

Batman threads too

If its the same people every time why arent THEY the ones getting bannned?

Originally posted by golem370
Batman threads too Calm down bro. Let's stop the crazy talk about banning Batman threads! Originally posted by JayDaDon
If its the same people every time why arent THEY the ones getting bannned? mmm

Thanos, Hulk, and Superman needs to be banned from the forum.

Originally posted by carver9
Thanos, Thor Hulk, and Superman needs to be banned from the forum.
Those three guys suck the life right out of this forum. Every other thread involves them somehow.

No. Lets call it like it is, their fanboys suck the life out of this forum.

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk needs to be banned.
Carver has done the noble thing and volunteered himself for a ban

Seriously? Wouldn't be easier to ban from those threads the posters who think their favorite character has no limits?

I want to talk about thanos with someone who is educated on the matter but also can use critical thinking to razionalize that maybe there thanos is not Quantifiable as powerful as Odin.

Yes I had to do it

Mod:

"I'm banning Thanos threads temporarily"

on the background you see Quani rubbing his hands together like Mr. Burns saying:

"Excellent"

Thanos wins.

Originally posted by Badabing
The Thanos brigade and anti-Thanos brigade got Thanos threads banned again. Good going everybody.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t597271.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t597054.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t597197.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t597002.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t596788.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t597201.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t560530.html

I'll reopen them at some point. And see what Pr wants to do about some of you.

Let's just ban the people, not the threads.

Just go by the list... Easy enough.

^ I volunteer Carver to be banned.

Although we can always scapegoat Brucie.

The irony here is hilarious

#2007stormwars

Originally posted by -Pr-
Let's just ban the people, not the threads.

Just go by the list... Easy enough. Okay, I've reopened the threads. Now I have to remember where the list is. mmm

Like you don't know it off by heart.

biscuits

Now you have to go through with it. Assert your dominance and show the humans the superior species

I vote to ban the phrase "shit pushed in"

Why not just ban the people that purposely troll the threads ?

Originally posted by carver9
Thanos, Hulk, and Superman needs to be banned from the forum.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t597295.html

Ban them all.

Thanos threads should be permanently banned...

Why? Because as I learned a long time ago, its completely impossible have a rational debate as pertains him...

Because of the TDF (Thanos Defense Force) only 2 types of Thanos threads exist:

1) Thanos spite stomps his opponents liver through his r3ctum and finishes him off with the Stunner...

or...

2) Its a spite thread against Thanos and the TDF are gonna troll you relentlessly and run crying to the mods asap...


There are no 6/10 splits for or against Thanos; its Thanos 10/10 without effort, or Thanos-Hater-Spite Thread....

And you all know its true...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Thanos threads should be peramently banned...

Why? Because as I learned a long time ago, its completely impossible have a rational debate as pertains him...

Because of the TDF (Thanos Defense Force) only 2 types of Thanos threads exist:

1) Thanos spite stomps his opponents liver through his r3ctum and finishes him off with the Stunner...

or...

2) Its a spite thread against Thanos and the TDF are gonna troll you relentlessly and run crying to the mods asap...


There are no 6/10 splits for or against Thanos; its Thanos 10/10 without effort, or Thanos-Hater-Spite Thread....

And you all know its true...

But 90% of the time you admit In your own Thanos threads that you created it as a spite thread? People don't even have to say anything, that's all they have to do is wait, and you'll end up throwing yourself up under the bus. Why not report you? You are baiting people and upset at a character status (kind of weird if you ask me). If you think said character could be beaten in certain threads...go into that thread and give your reason, don't intentionally create a spite thread to satisfy your cravings of seeing Thanos lose (along with trying to get Quan attention for again, some strange/weird reason).

Originally posted by carver9
But 90% of the time you admit In your own Thanos thread that you created it as a spite thread? Why not report you? You are baiting people and upset at a character status (kind of weird if you ask me). If you think said character could be beaten in certain thread...go into that thread and give your reason, don't intentionally create a spite thread to satisfy your cravings of seeing Thanos lose (along with trying to get Quan attention for again, some strange/weird reason).

The spite threads started because all the 'fair fight' threads failed...

The TDF show up and come up with completely irrational reasons why Thanos wins and the other character has no prayer whatsoever of getting even a single win...

And yes, there have been times where Quan was the target, but lately (and for quite a while actually) the target has just been Thanos fans in general; its comical to see the irrational reasons they come up with to justify a Thanos 10/10 stomp regardless of what he's up against...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Thanos threads should be permanently banned...

Why? Because as I learned a long time ago, its completely impossible have a rational debate as pertains him...

Because of the TDF (Thanos Defense Force) only 2 types of Thanos threads exist:

1) Thanos spite stomps his opponents liver through his r3ctum and finishes him off with the Stunner...

or...

2) Its a spite thread against Thanos and the TDF are gonna troll you relentlessly and run crying to the mods asap...


There are no 6/10 splits for or against Thanos; its Thanos 10/10 without effort, or Thanos-Hater-Spite Thread....

And you all know its true...

@carver...

Be honest...

Is the above true?

You know d@m well it is...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Thanos threads should be permanently banned...

Why? Because as I learned a long time ago, its completely impossible have a rational debate as pertains him...

Because of the TDF (Thanos Defense Force) only 2 types of Thanos threads exist:

1) Thanos spite stomps his opponents liver through his r3ctum and finishes him off with the Stunner...

or...

2) Its a spite thread against Thanos and the TDF are gonna troll you relentlessly and run crying to the mods asap...


There are no 6/10 splits for or against Thanos; its Thanos 10/10 without effort, or Thanos-Hater-Spite Thread....

And you all know its true...

I think recent posts prove that the trolls should be banned

Originally posted by Insane Titan
I think recent posts prove that the trolls should be banned

Lol...

Quan and yourself (in precisely that order) are the senior members of the TDF...

If I get banned, fine...but you two should be banned right along with me.

That way both extremes are eliminated...

Ban Bada and Quan at the same time and see what happens.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@carver...

Be honest...

Is the above true?

You know d@m well it is...

I agree with you, Thanos is over rated. I just disagree with intentional bait/spite threads. The point of making threads is to make things challenging. Make people think for a bit on who'll win, etc...Spite threads have no purpose except one, and that's to make people angry. Which is the reason I said I don't see anything wrong with someone reporting you since you admitted in your own thread that you created a spite thread.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Lol...

Quan and yourself (in precisely that order) are the senior members of the TDF...

If I get banned, fine...but you two should be banned right along with me.

That way both extremes are eliminated... you make bait spite threads and when ppl post to wind you up you cry, and when ppl post with actual legit proof you act even worse.

You can't blame others for your own hatred of a fictional character , that's your own sad fault

Originally posted by Insane Titan
you make bait spite threads and when ppl post to wind you up you cry, and when ppl post with actual legit proof you act even worse.

You can't blame others for your own hatred of a fictional character , that's your own sad fault

Its not really the character...

Its people like yourself that simply refuse to debate the character rationally that I have issue with and for the reasons I've stated here originally...

Banning threads and don't violate the basic rules, really?

If you don't want to read a thread then don't read it...why regulate anyone's behavior? If people want to make Thanos threads, despite how ridiculous and overdone, they should be allowed to.

Oy.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Its not really the character...

Its people like yourself that simply refuse to debate the character rationally that I have issue with and for the reasons I've stated here originally... you just can't handle it when ppl give you actual proof or feats you can't debate against.

It's your own failings that make this happen

^I find it hilarious that a thread about banning Thanos threads is possibly about to turn into a Thanos thread. lol

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Lol...

Quan and yourself (in precisely that order) are the senior members of the TDF...

If I get banned, fine...but you two should be banned right along with me.

That way both extremes are eliminated...

In Titan's defence, he does NOT give Thanos autowins in every thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=597054&pagenumber=1

This thread is proof. So I don't think you can lump him with Quan (see the later pages)

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In Titan's defence, he does NOT give Thanos autowins in every thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=597054&pagenumber=1

This thread is proof. So I don't think you can lump him with Quan (see the later pages)

Thats why he's second...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In Titan's defence, he does NOT give Thanos autowins in every thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=597054&pagenumber=1

This thread is proof. So I don't think you can lump him with Quan (see the later pages)

Titan's first post in that thread is him saying that Thanos wins.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Titan's first post in that thread is him saying that Thanos wins.



You're right...

I didnt even click the link, just assumed DarkSaint had his facts straight...

Then read from page 3 onwards. He admits the possibility of Superman giving Thanos a hard time, whereas Quan steadfastly holds his position.

The thread then degenerates into the two of them arguing against each other.

My point still stands - you can hardly lump him and Quan together, into one 'TDF', when even they themselves don't do it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then read from page 3 onwards. He admits the possibility of Superman giving Thanos a hard time, whereas Quan steadfastly holds his position.

Ah...

Well, that makes 'lord boo' (Titans name from long ago) 2nd!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then read from page 3 onwards. He admits the possibility of Superman giving Thanos a hard time, whereas Quan steadfastly holds his position.

I'll give it a look, however that would just mean that he starts off giving Thanos the win but is sometimes willing to change his mind.

I think lord of blunders posts in this thread proves my point entirely, it's sad really that a person can become this obsessed with characters and its fans

What about your posts in this thread?

Insane's problem is just that he's incredibly angry. Usually due to someone trolling him. I doubt he'd come across as a "fanboy" if he wasn't the madest man in the world.

Though trolling this thread and calling him a fanboy helps out.

Anyway, either the threads should close down or people get banned. However an alternative would be to just ban people from posting in their problem threads. For example, no Abhi in Superman threads, no h1 in Thanos threads, no LoM/Quan in Thanos threads, Carver in Hulk threads, etc. Though that would require more moderation, but I'm sure rules could be put in place for a healthy suggestion of what to do if said individuals do post. And then take it from there and see if problems still arrise. It'd be sort of the same thing but it'd be picking out individuals instead of groups and a stern reminder without a ban.

srug

I say we just let the Thor, Superman, Hulk, and Thanos brigades have a fight to the death and get it over with.

Afterall, only the strong are fit to survive...

Yes!! let them fight! Let them kill!!

The Alpha Flight brigade will take over!!!

There is an Alpha Flight brigade?

Yeah, me and my mom. Duh!

I think she lied to you

Momma Mungi?!!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

I saw her with Pr, she's part of team Aquaman

BAH! I was reping Aquaman way before PR did.

Originally posted by Silent Master
What about your posts in this thread? you mean pointing the trolls are the problem , lol nice try .

That only takes one post.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Yes!! let them fight! Let them kill!!

The Alpha Flight brigade will take over!!! you would get killed ....off panel.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
you would get killed ....off panel.

The worst way to be killed


http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/af_zps3f2c985e.gif

Originally posted by -K-M-
The worst way to be killed


http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/A_Flight10/af_zps3f2c985e.gif

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I say we just let the Thor, Superman, Hulk, and Thanos brigades have a fight to the death and get it over with.

Afterall, only the strong are fit to survive...

The House of El has already won the war!

JaketheBank King of the wretched Thorbags- GONE

ODG- Hated enemy of The House of El- GONE

Quan- Humbled to the point of impotence and has ran off to the Foreign cinema forum- DEFEATED

You guys also are in the midst of a civil war last time I checked

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
You guys also are in the midst of a civil war last time I checked

BAH!

Some minor housekeeping.

The House of El is one in unity and strength!

Pr defected, so you lost your most powerful member

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Honestly I think it sets a bad standard.

Ban dumb posters, not characters. your welcome

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Pr defected, so you lost your most powerful member

PR left before he was REMOVED!

I say Thanos wins here..

Does Thanos have the IG here?
Dont matter just wondering..