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This is vader at the top of his power, TK, pure clarity of mind.

Versus

Mace Windu.


The battle takes place in a neutral setting, anything goes, both are blood lusted.

If Windu closes the gap, then Vader is royally ****ed!

Seeing as how vader was portrayed in the TFU1-3 novels, I would say in CC he is utterly terrifying.

Additionally I just don't see Mace overcoming Vader's monstrous force power, particularly blood lusted TK.

Seeing as how Mace closed the gap on Sidious before he used his monstrous Force powers, I would have say this: If Windu closes the gap (which is a very good possibility), then Vader is royally ****ed!

But Vader's force powers displayed in the TFU novels was much different than Sidous.

For one Vader was shown to use his monstrous force powers in regards to his physical abilities, combat, and most notoriously for TK mid combat.

I'm just saying, CC seems to be Vader's strongest point particularly with his TK.

Remember Vaapad allowed Mace to match Sidious as it amped him off Palp's power, in a duel against Vader he won't be receiving the same amp.

Originally posted by ares834
Remember Vaapad allowed Mace to match Sidious as it amped him off Palp's power, in a duel against Vader he won't be receiving the same amp.

This is an excellent point, mace was the level he was due to him channeling the maximum amount of dark side energy from Sidious and coverting it to light side energy to fuel him.

Against vader he wont have that massive boost, additionally Vader's application force powers in combat is different from palpatine...he wont be using force lightening or other more out of combat force based powers. Vader's emphasis is on amping his own speed, strength, and TK that is unrivaled.

Originally posted by Board Walker
This is an excellent point, mace was the level he was due to him channeling the maximum amount of dark side energy from Sidious and coverting it to light side energy to fuel him.

Against vader he wont have that massive boost, additionally Vader's application force powers in combat is different from palpatine...he wont be using force lightening or other more out of combat force based powers. Vader's emphasis is on amping his own speed, strength, and TK that is unrivaled.


That doesn't make any sense. Vader taps into the Dark side of the Force just to move his body - of course he'll be receiving the same amp.

- and Jinsoku Takai is right on the money - if Windu closes the gap like he did with Vader's more powerful Master, then Vader is screwed. And he is.

No offense, but this is sorta a silly thread. Vader will have more advantages than usual due to his destructive nature and showings at this time period, but Mace can use his masterful experience and Vapaad to deal with that, find Vader's weakpoints, and BAM.

Vader dies here - either as quickly as Palpatine, or likely, a little quicker.

Of course Mace is the winner.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
That doesn't make any sense. Vader taps into the Dark side of the Force just to move his body - of course he'll be receiving the same amp.

No, it does. Vaapad's superconducting loop allowed Mace to match Palp's speed and power. Against Vader he wouldn't be channeling Palp's darkness but Vader's and therefore would match Vader's speed and power.

Originally posted by ares834
No, it does. Vaapad's superconducting loop allowed Mace to match Palp's speed and power. Against Vader he wouldn't be channeling Palp's darkness but Vader's and therefore would match Vader's speed and power.


It doesn't match it - it brings you over the threshold.


Vapaad + Vader's Power = Vader's power + Mace's inherent power = Power adequatly above Vader's

Mace was edged over Palpatine in power as they dueled, just by a tiny bit or two, due to his own inherent power, which kept Palpatine from killing him, and allowed Mace to put the time in to find Palpatine's Shatterpoint and strike it.


Either way it doesn't matter - if Vader is powerful as is being said, then Mace's amp from Vader will still be a powerful amp. So it's moot.

Not quite. The novel never states that Vaapad "adds up" Palpatine's power and Mace's rather it says it redirects Palpatine's power and seemingly all of it.

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again.

He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt."

Nor did Mace have an edge in power with his duel with Palpatine. They were completely equal.

"Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift."

The reason Mace won the duel is because of shatterpoint not because he had an edge in power.


As for Mace being taken to Vaapad's threshold, that's only after the lightsaber duel when Palpatine is throwing lightning at him. Not once during the lightsaber duel was Vaapad brought to the threshold.

Mace Windu TK's Vader's breathing machine, like he crushed Grievous.

Or you know, he utterly beats the shit out of Vader. Windu bested Kar Vastor who had the raw power of Yoda more or less and beat Sidious. I don't see what a maimed Vader would do to him.

Nick Rostu said Vader's power dwarfs Kar Vastor's in the Coruscant Nights books.

Originally posted by ares834
Nick Rostu said Vader's power dwarfs Kar Vastor's in the Coruscant Nights books.

Quote?

Originally posted by ares834
Nick Rostu said Vader's power dwarfs Kar Vastor's in the Coruscant Nights books. I have argued (pretty successuflly, imo) that the setting for the fight with Vastor made all the difference. Vastor's power is irrelevant.

Originally posted by ares834
Nick Rostu said Vader's power dwarfs Kar Vastor's in the Coruscant Nights books.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize Nick Rostu, the non-Sith, non-Jedi, was an expert on the respective power levels of each.

Well he was Force Sensitive, so it is possible for him to sense and compare their power levels.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm sorry, I didn't realize Nick Rostu, the non-Sith, non-Jedi, was an expert on the respective power levels of each.





- Good point.

In any case, I'll believe it, when I see the quote. And even then, we don't know the context of said quote.

Rostu could have been joking, or even high.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not using that as an argument that Vader is superior than Mace. Hell, I'm not even saying he is. Rather, I'm arguing against the notion that Vastor is beyond Vader. Gotcha. I misread your post then.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Ahh.


Keep in mind.

1. This is a much older Kar, and not his younger, more powerful self.

No. This book is set a mere three years afterwards.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
2. The author is probably biased against the character.



Originally posted by Battlemaster
3. He is away from the very Jungle he is an Avatar of - though if this were on Haruun Kal, and especially if this were the Vastor that Mace fought - Vader would be turned into a pathetic prison ***** for Vastor to rape every night.

Doubtful. Notice Nick's dialogue when he describes Kar Vastor. It's all about the jungle, furthermore he talks about how Vastor's power was pretty much unmatched. It seems clear he is talking about Vastor on Haruun Kul specifically since he is talking about Vastor in the past tense.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Vader does not = Prime Kar Vastor/Jungle Avatar in any way.

That Vastor would sexually dominate Vader.

Once again, doubtful. Windu, while seemingly holding back, managed to subdue Kar rather easily via telekinesis. Vader could do likewise.

I agree, Mace came off as holding back in every fight but the hand to hand one. But he had a major disadvantage there anyways, even more of one he normally had due to the location.

Originally posted by ares834
No. This book is set a mere three years afterwards.






Ah, I was thinking of Shadows of Mindor.







Originally posted by ares834

Doubtful. Notice Nick's dialogue when he describes Kar Vastor. It's all about the jungle, furthermore he talks about how Vastor's power was pretty much unmatched. It seems clear he is talking about Vastor on Haruun Kul specifically since he is talking about Vastor in the past tense.



Nick was likely Overestimating Vader then.

Simple mistake.





Originally posted by ares834

Once again, doubtful. Windu, while seemingly holding back, managed to subdue Kar rather easily via telekinesis. Vader could do likewise.



Maybe. Kar got taken by surprise by Windu and in a straight fight, Prime Kar could likely blitz Vader and decapitate him.

No, I don't think he could. Vader not only has his Dark Armor, but he also has superior TK, better damage soak, and is faster. I could argue he is stronger, though only by the extremely slimmest of margins.


Also, Glove Of Darth Vader is canon, correct? If that is the case, Vader has a crushgaunt.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Maybe. Kar got taken by surprise by Windu and in a straight fight, Prime Kar could likely blitz Vader and decapitate him.

I doubt it. I don't know why people think Vader sucks because he doesn't.

Originally posted by Pwned
I agree, Mace came off as holding back in every fight but the hand to hand one.



He probably held back in their first skirmish at the Balawai encampment but so did Kar.

And in their final fight - Windu didn't want to fight Kar, because he knew even if he was healthy; and on his best day, Kar would kill him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I doubt it. I don't know why people think Vader sucks because he doesn't.

Vader doesn't suck in the slightest. I like him.

But Prime Kar Vastor is something else.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
He probably held back in their first skirmish at the Balawai encampment but so did Kar.

And in their final fight - Windu didn't want to fight Kar, because he knew even if he was healthy; and on his best day, Kar would kill him. Not holding back at all, and with both armed, Windu would probably mop the floor with Vastor. When I am not insanely busy, I will read over the last fight of Shatterpoint again.

Originally posted by Pwned
Not holding back at all, and with both armed, Windu would probably mop the floor with Vastor. When I am not insanely busy, I will read over the last fight of Shatterpoint again.


- You should.

Mace makes it painfully clear that even healthy and on his best day, Vastor would use him as a dispensable sex-toy.

Mace has a habit of being modest. At one point he praised Obi-Wan as being a better swordsman than himself.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mace has a habit of being modest. At one point he praised Obi-Wan as being a better swordsman than himself.

They secretly have an on-off fling with each other. Totally in love.

It's very passionate.

Why people believe Vader is so low in terms of power, particularly after the TFU novels puzzles me, he was shown to be extremely powerful in terms of force ability and combat.

That and his armor has really high damage soak.

His Sword abilities are some thing else, Djem + Makashi + Sorseru, with his speed and strength makes him very dangerous in CC which is what Mace will be in.

As for TK I would argue that it would be more likely that Vader crushes Windu's lungs than Windu crushing vader with TK.

I am actually surprised that people here gave Vader so much credit instead of simply killing topic with Windu stomps.

What plays against Vader the most is his reduced speed and mobility. I would put my bet on RotS Anakin in pure lightsaber combat. But as Vader he compensates his body limitations with offensive Force attacks.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Mace Windu TK's Vader's breathing machine, like he crushed Grievous.

Or you know, he utterly beats the shit out of Vader. Windu bested Kar Vastor who had the raw power of Yoda more or less and beat Sidious. I don't see what a maimed Vader would do to him.

Didn't Mace also say Vastor had the raw power of Anakin? Mace's point was that Vastor had more raw power than himself, not that he was actually on Yoda's level.

Besides, Vader's TK is greater than Mace's, so I don't see Mace crushing anything on Vader.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Didn't Mace also say Vastor had the raw power of Anakin? Mace's point was that Vastor had more raw power than himself, not that he was actually on Yoda's level.

Besides, Vader's TK is greater than Mace's, so I don't see Mace crushing anything on Vader.

It's been some time, but Vastor's power as discerned by Mace Windu was approaching or surpassing Yoda's own or Anakin's own. He also notes that it is more raw potential than mastered Force powers, so unlike Windu or even Vader, he's not a true Force disciple, just a Force-enhanced animal of a man.

I'm still not convinced that Rostu's an expert in measuring Force capability as say Mace Windu, given that the former has a dim understanding of the Force and the latter is a Master on the Council.

No one is saying Rostu's assessment is greater than Windu's as they measured different things. Rostu seems to be measuring achieved power while Mace was measuring raw power which in this case means potential hence the comparison to Anakin.

I agree with Ares on that. Sensing raw power, just about all the high-tier people are grouped up together.

Sensing refined power, Kar comes off as nothing. He has no refined power. While Yoda and Sidious would come off as gods, I would bet. (Note: That is just while sensing their levels of refined power, e.g. their achieved powah levels)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mace has a habit of being modest. At one point he praised Obi-Wan as being a better swordsman than himself.

That could possibly be true though, Obi-Wan's Soresu is World Class.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's been some time, but Vastor's power as discerned by Mace Windu was approaching or surpassing Yoda's own or Anakin's own. He also notes that it is more raw potential than mastered Force powers, so unlike Windu or even Vader, he's not a true Force disciple, just a Force-enhanced animal of a man.

I'm still not convinced that Rostu's an expert in measuring Force capability as say Mace Windu, given that the former has a dim understanding of the Force and the latter is a Master on the Council.


Well put.

Ray, Mace is the second best swordsman in the entire Order, right after Yoda. I am fairly certain that was directly stated (somewhere.... Not even a stretch to believe on either way)

Kenobi is in the top ten of that era, sure, but he is not as good as Windu, who created an entirely new style, and had great knowledge of the others.

Originally posted by Pwned
Ray, Mace is the second best swordsman in the entire Order, right after Yoda. I am fairly certain that was directly stated (somewhere.... Not even a stretch to believe on either way)

Kenobi is in the top ten of that era, sure, but he is not as good as Windu, who created an entirely new style, and had great knowledge of the others.

Considering how ridiculously close most of Kenobi's battles are, it's questionable if his defensive style really puts him even that high up. I can't think of a single fight where Obi-Wan dominated or won without being nearly defeated several times by his opponent. Even against a non-Force sensitive such as Jango Fett, GL basically said they were fairly well matched. Video evidence supports this.

Which is sad, because Kenobi is my favorite Jedi aside from Qui-Gon Jinn, and both of them have a history of losing/barely winning battles.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I can't think of a single fight where Obi-Wan dominated or won without being nearly defeated several times by his opponent.


He kicked A'Sharad Hett's ass so hard he tore the ****ers arm off with the Force.

Good point, I'd forgotten that. Obi-Wan became awesome at kicking ass after defeating Anakin in the Mustafar Flash Point, because he leveled and could put points in Badass.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He kicked A'Sharad Hett's ass so hard he tore the ****ers arm off with the Force.

Nah, the artist said he just cut it off.

http://www.comicscommunity.com/boards/janduursema/?read=9783&expand=0

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Considering how ridiculously close most of Kenobi's battles are, it's questionable if his defensive style really puts him even that high up. I can't think of a single fight where Obi-Wan dominated or won without being nearly defeated several times by his opponent. Even against a non-Force sensitive such as Jango Fett, GL basically said they were fairly well matched. Video evidence supports this.

Which is sad, because Kenobi is my favorite Jedi aside from Qui-Gon Jinn, and both of them have a history of losing/barely winning battles. Well, I think that the reason they are always so close is because he is a master of the most defensive style. Considering how he just waits for them to get tired, I think the fact that he fought people who kick the asses of many other people through sheer offensive power and lived every time, that attests to his ability.


Plus, it was Jango Fett. That guy is a challenge for any jedi except for Mace. Because Samuel L. Jackson is a badass.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah, the artist said he just cut it off.

http://www.comicscommunity.com/boards/janduursema/?read=9783&expand=0

I don't believe him.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/66907/1540878-star_wars_legacy__14_17_super.jpg

The picture is clear. His lightsaber is nowhere near the arm and Obi-Wan's hand is glowing and pointing at the arm. If he did cut it off then the artist utterly failed to convey that.

There's even a bunch of residue, like from a shockwave tearing something up.

Yeah, I agree it looks completely like he tore of Krayt's arm. I'd assume the force energy we see is just Kenobi force pushing the arm away to get the lightsaber out of reach.

Why would the lightsaber being out of reach matter to a guy who has one arm?

The only way it would matter would be if Kenobi took the other one away. (I am avoiding that awful pun) And even the, Hett had the Force.

He does. In the next panel he uses the force to disarm A'sharad.

Dang it! You punned -.-



I haven't read that comic, so meh.

Originally posted by Pwned
so meh. You know, with the right pronunciation, 'so meh' can sound like 'sue me'.



So I'll 'so yeh on court'.

I was reading the thread list quickly and I almost read this as "Darth Vader (Pink Suit) versus Mace Windu". That would be Youtube worthy.

Sabers: Mace 10/10
Force: Vader 7/10

All Out: Mace 7/10


Originally posted by ares834



Once again, doubtful. Windu, while seemingly holding back, managed to subdue Kar rather easily via telekinesis. Vader could do likewise.

When did this happen?

Kar was the one tossing Mace around with the Force IIRC.

End of the duel. Mace windu throws one of Kar's shields at Kar knocking him out IIRC.

Jedi rules, not jungle rules... or something to that effect. Don't have the novel in front of me, so that's a very loose paraphrase. But the point is that Mace was indeed holding back, despite his modesty later on. In a strict fistfight, Mace has his work cut out for him, but when it the time came to end it at the end of the novel, he did just that. Mace has a history of holding back it seems. This is due in large to his fear of falling to the dark side, something that was remedied for the most part after the events of Shatterpoint (see quote somewehere in the RotS novel when he is dueling Sidious about him no longer fearing the darkness).

Originally posted by ares834
End of the duel. Mace windu throws one of Kar's shields at Kar knocking him out IIRC.

Right man. Except that he ***king impaled him with the shield, coming within millimeters of killing him. Kar really never stood a chance when push came to shove.

I think that Vader's Force and Physical strength are not being taken into account. Palpatine had the Force, but onlt that plus the strength of a human. Vader has the Force plus the strength of a machine. He is stronger than Palpatine is. He will keep crashing on Mace's defenses, getting stronger as the fight goes on.

Imo Mace Windu owns vader, with little difficulty.

Are you serious? If Galen and his clone kicked Vader's ass and LET HIM LIVE both times
What the Bantha Poo - doo do you think he can beat Mace ?


OK Vader does use Dark side energy his dark armor is filled with the stuff
Mace will find his weakness by using shatter point and Vaapad.
Like BattleMaster said Force crush his control box on his chest

I say the box and his oxygen tank on his back
Vader will feed on his on Haterd of Himself to keep himself alive
Thus giving Mace the added amp or whatever you guys call it

AS For TK? Really? TK is one of the skills you need to master before even practicing Vaapad.
Come on really? Do have to say this?

Mace will not only show him who is the real master of TK But actually enjoy kicking his ass with either shatter point, Vaapad Or TK alone!!!!!! This will be a slaughter the same way Galen and his clone kicked Vader's ass Mace will just introduce the true Power of Vaapad on dat ass !!!!

Are you serious? If Galen and his clone kicked Vader's ass and LET HIM LIVE both times
What the Bantha Poo - doo do you think he can beat Mace ?


OK Vader does use Dark side energy his dark armor is filled with the stuff
Mace will find his weakness by using shatter point and Vaapad.
Like BattleMaster said Force crush his control box on his chest

I say the box and his oxygen tank on his back
Vader will feed on his on Haterd of Himself to keep himself alive
Thus giving Mace the added amp or whatever you guys call it

AS For TK? Really? TK is one of the skills you need to master before even practicing Vaapad.
Come on really? Do have to say this?

Mace will not only show him who is the real master of TK But actually enjoy kicking his ass with either shatter point, Vaapad Or TK alone!!!!!! This will be a slaughter the same way Galen and his clone kicked Vader's ass Mace will just introduce the true Power of Vaapad on dat ass !!!!

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Are you serious? If Galen and his clone kicked Vader's ass and LET HIM LIVE both times
What the Bantha Poo - doo do you think he can beat Mace ?


OK Vader does use Dark side energy his dark armor is filled with the stuff
Mace will find his weakness by using shatter point and Vaapad.
Like BattleMaster said Force crush his control box on his chest

I say the box and his oxygen tank on his back
Vader will feed on his on Haterd of Himself to keep himself alive
Thus giving Mace the added amp or whatever you guys call it

AS For TK? Really? TK is one of the skills you need to master before even practicing Vaapad.
Come on really? Do have to say this?

Mace will not only show him who is the real master of TK But actually enjoy kicking his ass with either shatter point, Vaapad Or TK alone!!!!!! This will be a slaughter the same way Galen and his clone kicked Vader's ass Mace will just introduce the true Power of Vaapad on dat ass !!!! You really wank hard to Mace, don't you?

You're not taking into account anything Vader ha ever done, and your only argument is "lolmacepwns"

Originally posted by NTJack0
You really wank hard to Mace, don't you?

You're not taking into account anything Vader ha ever done, and your only argument is "lolmacepwns"

You really wank hard to Vader?
I was taking into account what Vader has done.
Vader is over rated. He is n't even close to a threat as....Sidious.

your agrument is lolvaderpwns if you think a half man half machine
very low powered in the Force sith's spit like Vader can touch Mace?

My agrument still stands like every body esles'
TK Breathing machine
Followed by a lightning fast decapitation.
End of duel.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
You really wank hard to Vader?
I was taking into account what Vader has done.
Vader is over rated. He is n't even close to a threat as....Sidious.

your agrument is lolvaderpwns if you think a half man half machine
very low powered in the Force sith's spit like Vader can touch Mace?

My agrument still stands like every body esles'
TK Breathing machine
Followed by a lightning fast decapitation.
End of duel.

I will throw in example with Lumiya. She was even more machine than Vader. Yet, Luke even in his prime had never had easy fight with her. He won her in hard fought duel in desire to avenge his wife. And in that fight the best he achieved is driving her back until she started falling of a cliff, so he didn't even out-skill her properly.

Also, Vader actually still has the same midichlorian count as it is counted per cell. He is limited only to heavy Force exertions as they put a lot of strain on body, however, he is still capable to empower his body for combat or throw a few Force attacks that would be as strong as his potential allows.

Originally posted by Arhael
I will throw in example with Lumiya. She was even more machine than Vader. Yet, Luke even in his prime had never had easy fight with her. He won her in hard fought duel in desire to avenge his wife. And in that fight the best he achieved is driving her back until she started falling of a cliff, so he didn't even out-skill her properly.

Also, Vader actually still has the same midichlorian count as it is counted per cell. He is limited only to heavy Force exertions as they put a lot of strain on body, however, he is still capable to empower his body for combat or throw a few Force attacks that would be as strong as his potential allows.

I agree but when that strain kicks in.
He will use his Hatred, which Mace through Vaapad will use against him.
Before the duel even begins he'll see Vader's shatter point and strike it.

Luke to me is over rated,the things they do with his New Order is just unnatural.
After reading the book in which Chewbacca dies I stopped reading anything that had to do
with Luke Skywalker. And that was a long time ago.

Good point, though.
I heard she was trained by Vader.
I'll say this about Vader,He was a good teacher .

Originally posted by juyomaster34
I agree but when that strain kicks in.
He will use his Hatred, which Mace through Vaapad will use against him.
Before the duel even begins he'll see Vader's shatter point and strike it.

Luke to me is over rated,the things they do with his New Order is just unnatural.
After reading the book in which Chewbacca dies I stopped reading anything that had to do
with Luke Skywalker. And that was a long time ago.

Good point, though.
I heard she was trained by Vader.
I'll say this about Vader,He was a good teacher .
Vader's style in peak suit is not about being acrobatic or flashy like he was as Anakin. His style is about pure power and overwhelming opponents. If he can take on 8 Jedi on Kessel at once and suffer only minor damage, why wouldn't he be able to take on one jedi, even if it is Mace....

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Vader's style in peak suit is not about being acrobatic or flashy like he was as Anakin. His style is about pure power and overwhelming opponents. If he can take on 8 Jedi on Kessel at once and suffer only minor damage, why wouldn't he be able to take on one jedi, even if it is Mace....

The 501st helped Vader at Kessel,and for the record he suffered damage
Palpatine hide the truth from the holo net to make Vader even more his instrument of fear.

Yes I know his style is about pure power and overwhelming opponents.
Vaapad does the same thing but with better control. Dude this Mace Windu,not Kit Fisto.
Vaapad is not acrobatic,not even flashy. try (Ataru ). just the ultimate aggression.


Peak suit Vader got his ass kicked by Inquistor Treymane do I need to go further?
Another one who let him live,need I say more?

Lets not forget that Vaapad is state of mind, not a Force technique. He was reflecting fury and power of Sidious in his mind. In reality Sidious did not send fury at Windu, he was drawing the Force into himself empowering his muscles and gave physical attacks, which Windu needed to block with his own strength.

Same way, when deflecting lightning, in Windu's head it was passing into him and out but in reality it didn't even reach him as he blocked and deflected it with lightsaber.

The idea is that he relishes fight and it allows him to reach top performance as much as his potential allows. But it doesn't give him advantage over whatever darksider he fights. With such logic you can argue that he pawns every known Sith in the EU, which is clearly fallacy.

Unfortunately you can't prove it. In fight with Sidious it took him some time to find shatterpoint but it was still of no use. He can find shatterpoint in armor of Vader but unlike Grievous Vader can defend against Force attacks.


Being unable to quickly outskill opponent with inferior power is not exactly overrated. Give specific examples of what unnatural things they do.

Like it or not, you can't take away feat of fighting Marek from Vader.

Like Windu he was master of Juyo but on top of that he was much more powerful.
He did defeat Vader but it took him getting enraged as well as using Dun Moch. Before that they fought evenly.

It would be a good and even fight between them. Vader has greater power and much more strength. But Windu has more agility and can last longer. And both of them are exceptionally skilled in combat.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Are you serious? If Galen and his clone kicked Vader's ass and LET HIM LIVE both times


Vader actually pretty much stalemated Galen's "clone". And the "clone's" force feats were stupidly insane.

BTW - there's no reason to believe that because something is a state of mind, it has nothing to do with the Force. Quite the contrary actually.

That is why he created Vaapad.
A because of HIS inner darkness
B To kill Sith, Dark Siders.

Ok I 'll prove it you really don't need Shatter Point or Vaapad
to defeat Vader.

Again Treymane kicked Vader's ass,Galen,his Clone,heck,
that small band on Kessel kicked his ass
if it was n't for the 501st who helped him he would be dead.

The box on his chest is a target
A target that atracts attention.
He will try his best to guard this area on his center line

To his pre skill to his peak skill with no success
I was waiting for someone to bring up Dun Moch.

Good point. The battle will go from sabers to TK
I admit that Vader's TK is impressive but in an enraged state?
All he's doing is fueling Vaapad with his Hatred and Dark Rage.

Thus Vader making a fatal mistake.
Here's were Shatter Point will kick in and the reults are spare parts
and a butched broken man who couldn't see that he was the person

Who will kill his wife.
He made this mistake with Dooku then with Obi wan and then with the people
I just mentioned.

Did you read what Jinsaku Takai said. Vader can't move that fast. My point....
Very Good point Jinsaku,
Mace will do the same to Vader.

By some magical will of the writers Vader might beat Mace.
That is the only way.

Grievous doesn't reflect Force powers. Grievous was needed for the end game..
In LOE Mace had this duel. until the writers decided it to be stalemate.

It can be proven about him seeing Vader's Shatter Point,
Mace vs Jango Fett
Mace vs the Summer time War.
lastly Mace vs Sidious.


Anakin was Sidious's Shatter Point.
This is the end game,this is why the writers and the creator
wanted Mace to die.

IF (VERY BIG ) IF Anakin got there too late or had not come at all,
Sidious would have been DEAD. Or both of them....

Mace is the only Jedi Master who could ever beat and kill Sidious.
If not? Why kill him off? Why did Sidious think he was a threat to his plans?

Think about this. Sidious has forseen many futures and in them he could not see
his own death. No Sith could.

Vader is not that powerful
Mace isn't either.
Clearly he is more powerful than Cyborg Vader

So no mattter how you look at it.
Mace wins this Duel.

Vader: You don't know the power of the dark side.

Mace Windu : You don't "know" me...either.
I can kill you,....but I rather not.....

Somehow and CLEARLY can't go together. Because you can't explain how it works, thus it is not CLEAR statement.

You can't explain how speed can be accepted because it is not even Force.
You can't explain how fury can be reflected back to its source. And especially how it would weaken Sidious. Because it is emotion, Sidious just felt it and boosted his physical attacks with it.
Lightning gets deflected from lightsaber without Vaapad, especially, at such close distance. And you keep ignoring how naration about lightning contradicts what really happened:
"Power passed into him and out again without touching him" - when in reality it did not, he caught it with lightsaber.


What fatigue are you talking about? Re-watch film, their fight is too short to get fatigued.


WHATT? When did I say that it has nothing to do with Force?? Force is driven by emotions. Indeed, Force users can get empowered by both their own and opponent's emotions. But emotion is not power itself, it gives focus to draw on the Force, to utilize inner potential.
Sidious was tapping into his rage. Windu was tapping into Sidious' emotions, he relished fights, which means he draws on whatever emotions fights cause. While it seems unfair that Windu benefits from emotions of opponents and, indeed, it is advantage, however, it doesn't mean that he gets more powerful than his potential can allow. Because as I said emotions give focus but Power comes from within.

We all give various interpretation to the Force but in this case it is irrelevant.
The very idea that Windu pawning ALL darksiders because of Vaapad is retarded and outright boring.

Vaapad doesn't make Windu equally powerful to whoever he fights with. He nearly got overwhelmed by Sidious' lightning. In comparison Yoda absorbed lightning with bare hands, which is MUCH MUCH harder. It is direct prove that even in Vaapad state his power is firmly below both Yoda and Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael

You can't explain how fury can be reflected back to its source.

It could be that Vapaad's advanced techniques can use an opponents own power against them??

After all some martial arts do the same thing. Maybe with Vapaad it's an emphasis on furious anger powered strikes.



Originally posted by Arhael
Vaapad doesn't make Windu equally powerful to whoever he fights with. He nearly got overwhelmed by Sidious' lightning. In comparison Yoda absorbed lightning with bare hands, which is MUCH MUCH harder. It is direct prove that even in Vaapad state his power is firmly below both Yoda and Sidious.

Mace also almost got overwhelmed by Sidious's Force push on both the novel and the script.

If Mace had absorbed Sidious's power then that really shouldn't have happened.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Vader's style in peak suit is not about being acrobatic or flashy like he was as Anakin. His style is about pure power and overwhelming opponents. If he can take on 8 Jedi on Kessel at once and suffer only minor damage, why wouldn't he be able to take on one jedi, even if it is Mace....

No way. On Kessel Vader got his shit handed to him, if the Jedi had worked more as a team and not been (in some cases) killing each other, they would have stomped him. Tsui Choi alone was giving him a ton of trouble. In fact if Tsui Choi had aimed his lightsaber a bit better/ not been being gunned down. He probably would have killed Vader.

I think I finally figured out how Vaapad really works.
I always argued that state of mind allows to tap into inner power but not power of others and I still side with this idea.
Yet, there is concept of Sith feeding on emotions of others.
According to novel Windu was drawing fury into inmost center and let ti back out. It can be interpreted as he got empowered by Sidious emotions and used that power to attack back. It perfectly satisfies superconduit loop idea.
However, as I said emotion is not power, it is driving factor that either distracts or gives better focus to reach deeper connection to the Force. And how deep that connection can be depends on potential.

While Windu did get empowered with help of Sidious, he became only as powerful as his potential allowed. So at no point he reached equal power to Sidious nor his state of mind weakened Sidious in any way. Why he still won? Because of his unparalleled combat skills.

Such interpretion goes perfectly in accord with RotS novel as well as the rest of EU.

Vaapad doesn't give advantage over darksiders. However, it allows grey Jedi to reach their prime performance, when fighting them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It could be that Vapaad's advanced techniques can use an opponents own power against them??

After all some martial arts do the same thing. Maybe with Vapaad it's an emphasis on furious anger powered strikes.





Mace also almost got overwhelmed by Sidious's Force push on both the novel and the script.

If Mace had absorbed Sidious's power then that really shouldn't have happened.

Yes....,Darth Power,it can use an opponents own powers against them.
This has been proven.

Originally posted by Arhael
Somehow and CLEARLY can't go together. Because you can't explain how it works, thus it is not CLEAR statement.

You can't explain how speed can be accepted because it is not even Force.
You can't explain how fury can be reflected back to its source. And especially how it would weaken Sidious. Because it is emotion, Sidious just felt it and boosted his physical attacks with it.
Lightning gets deflected from lightsaber without Vaapad, especially, at such close distance. And you keep ignoring how naration about lightning contradicts what really happened:
"Power passed into him and out again without touching him" - when in reality it did not, he caught it with lightsaber.


What fatigue are you talking about? Re-watch film, their fight is too short to get fatigued.


WHATT? When did I say that it has nothing to do with Force?? Force is driven by emotions. Indeed, Force users can get empowered by both their own and opponent's emotions. But emotion is not power itself, it gives focus to draw on the Force, to utilize inner potential.
Sidious was tapping into his rage. Windu was tapping into Sidious' emotions, he relished fights, which means he draws on whatever emotions fights cause. While it seems unfair that Windu benefits from emotions of opponents and, indeed, it is advantage, however, it doesn't mean that he gets more powerful than his potential can allow. Because as I said emotions give focus but Power comes from within.

We all give various interpretation to the Force but in this case it is irrelevant.
The very idea that Windu pawning ALL darksiders because of Vaapad is retarded and outright boring.

Vaapad doesn't make Windu equally powerful to whoever he fights with. He nearly got overwhelmed by Sidious' lightning. In comparison Yoda absorbed lightning with bare hands, which is MUCH MUCH harder. It is direct prove that even in Vaapad state his power is firmly below both Yoda and Sidious.

Vaapad does make him just as powerful.
It's not retarded or out right boring that Windu nearly pawns ALL darksiders
because of Vaapad. It 's just fact.
Anyone skilled in the Force and Mastery of Vaapad can nearly pawn ALL darksiders.

In comparison to Yoda, (really) Yoda was overwhelmed by Sidious.
And not by just the lightning. He couldn't defeat Sidious.
Mace did with Vaapad.
This was also proven .

In his Vaapad state no one was above Mace except Depa Billaba
That was BC She surpassed him In Vaapad state.
When she fell to the DarkSide,Mace was stil above the Order in his Vaapad state.
This has been also proven.

I wouldn't say Vaapad made him equal I would say greater
l mean really we have n't seen Vaapad's true power.
Until then I refuse to believe something is beyond Vaapad because if he had survived
that betrayal he would have finished refining and evolving it.

Originally posted by juyomaster34

In his Vaapad state no one was above Mace except Depa Billaba
That was BC She surpassed him In Vaapad state.
When she fell to the DarkSide,Mace was stil above the Order in his Vaapad state.


Depa wasn't above Mace... Mace refused to fight back in their duel in Shatterpoint. This was due to both his love for her as a former student and his fear of using Vaapad again in that situation.

PLUS, Mace was shot beaten and stabbed through his stomach with a lightsaber (by surprise).

Correction. It has been interpreted, not proven.
And it is wrong.
The only example of using opponents power is by leaching life energy with Force drain.
Power doesn't come out of users, power is all around, they draw on the Force that surrounds them. Windu used emotions of Sidious against him, not power.


No. You can't ignore the fact that he nearly got overwhelmed by Sidious' lightning, despite the fact that lightsaber makes it easier to defend against lightning. On the other hand Yoda was as powerful and demonstrated it by stalemating Sidious with bare hands.


Wrong and unsupported.
Vaapad was suitable for Windu because he became himself, when using it. However, others failed and turned to darkside. Every character can reach top performance with state of mind that suits them. For Windu Vaapad was the answer because it turned his weakness into strength. Other characters have other weaknesses and therefore they achieve top performance by other means.


Yoda stalemated Sidious in direct Force contest. And don't forget that Windu can put his entire Force effort into combat, while Yoda needs to redirect significant part of his power just to overcome his physical limitatons. Yoda simply doesn't have offensive firepower like Anakin or Windu, he compensates it with speed but it is not enough to overwhelm opponents as fast as Dooku or Sidious.
Moreover, circumstances of their fight turned it into Force contest, Windu would die for sure in the same scenario.


Prove that Depa was above Windu.
And Windu has never been above Yoda in whatever state.


Nope, it didn't make him greater. He was less powerful than Sidious as example with lightning proves but more skilled with sabers. Simple as that.


Evolving? It is just Juyo style, Windu did not invent a single combat technique. Vaapad is about relishing fight, Windu wouldn't relish fights stronger over time, there is nothing to evolve.


I assure you that there are plenty of things that are far far beyond Vaapad.
Anakin in desire to save Kenobi and Asoka subdued both Son and Daughter.

Kenobi survived fight against far more powerful and boosted by rage Anakin.

Marek in desire to save Rebels resisted lightning of Sidious through unbearable pain without lightsaber and without ability to Force absorb.

Luke without mastery in any form inspired by Leya defeated Siduous in his most powerful incarnation.

Anakin Solo was below Jacen in combat, yet, he could enter such state of mind that could engage multiple Yuuzhan Vong, while Jacen had hard time defeating one.

Ganner Rysode on embrasing his arrogance slayed 1000s Vongs in single fight, while before he could hardly defeat even 1 Vong.

Jacen achieved such state of mind that he achieved deepest known unity with the Force.

Same Jacen by drawing on pain stalemated prime Luke, when noone else could do it.

Luke by drawing on love for his son and entire Order out wrestled Abeloth and she was multiple times more powerful than him.

All these feats are achieved with different states of mind and in each case Force user tapped into far greater power than Vaapad could give. The only difference is that they didn't name it new combat style like Windu.

Yeah I'd put Mace, Yoda and even Dooku over Sidious in pure sabers (and ''Anakin in the z0ne'' also)

Originally posted by juyomaster34


In comparison to Yoda, (really) Yoda was overwhelmed by Sidious.
And not by just the lightning. He couldn't defeat Sidious.
Mace did with Vaapad.
This was also proven .



According to the script Yoda was battering Sidious before he disarmed him (a scene missing from the film).

Sidious only survived due to having a more advantageous position the whole fight.

Yoda was the most powerful Jedi in the PT era and the biggest threat to Sidious.

Mace Windu owns

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Depa wasn't above Mace... Mace refused to fight back in their duel in Shatterpoint. This was due to both his love for her as a former student and his fear of using Vaapad again in that situation.

PLUS, Mace was shot beaten and stabbed through his stomach with a lightsaber (by surprise).

Her blade work surpassed his.
source shatter point,wookieepedia,clone wars comics.

You're right about the duel part,though .

Originally posted by Arhael
Correction. It has been interpreted, not proven.
And it is wrong.
The only example of using opponents power is by leaching life energy with Force drain.
Power doesn't come out of users, power is all around, they draw on the Force that surrounds them. Windu used emotions of Sidious against him, not power.


No. You can't ignore the fact that he nearly got overwhelmed by Sidious' lightning, despite the fact that lightsaber makes it easier to defend against lightning. On the other hand Yoda was as powerful and demonstrated it by stalemating Sidious with bare hands.


Wrong and unsupported.
Vaapad was suitable for Windu because he became himself, when using it. However, others failed and turned to darkside. Every character can reach top performance with state of mind that suits them. For Windu Vaapad was the answer because it turned his weakness into strength. Other characters have other weaknesses and therefore they achieve top performance by other means.







Yoda stalemated Sidious in direct Force contest. And don't forget that Windu can put his entire Force effort into combat, while Yoda needs to redirect significant part of his power just to overcome his physical limitatons. Yoda simply doesn't have offensive firepower like Anakin or Windu, he compensates it with speed but it is not enough to overwhelm opponents as fast as Dooku or Sidious.
Moreover, circumstances of their fight turned it into Force contest, Windu would die for sure in the same scenario.


Prove that Depa was above Windu.
And Windu has never been above Yoda in whatever state.


Nope, it didn't make him greater. He was less powerful than Sidious as example with lightning proves but more skilled with sabers. Simple as that.


Evolving? It is just Juyo style, Windu did not invent a single combat technique. Vaapad is about relishing fight, Windu wouldn't relish fights stronger over time, there is nothing to evolve.


I assure you that there are plenty of things that are far far beyond Vaapad.
Anakin in desire to save Kenobi and Asoka subdued both Son and Daughter.

Kenobi survived fight against far more powerful and boosted by rage Anakin.

Marek in desire to save Rebels resisted lightning of Sidious through unbearable pain without lightsaber and without ability to Force absorb.

Luke without mastery in any form inspired by Leya defeated Siduous in his most powerful incarnation.

Anakin Solo was below Jacen in combat, yet, he could enter such state of mind that could engage multiple Yuuzhan Vong, while Jacen had hard time defeating one.

Ganner Rysode on embrasing his arrogance slayed 1000s Vongs in single fight, while before he could hardly defeat even 1 Vong.

Jacen achieved such state of mind that he achieved deepest known unity with the Force.

Same Jacen by drawing on pain stalemated prime Luke, when noone else could do it.

Luke by drawing on love for his son and entire Order out wrestled Abeloth and she was multiple times more powerful than him.

All these feats are achieved with different states of mind and in each case Force user tapped into far greater power than Vaapad could give. The only difference is that they didn't name it new combat style like Windu.
So you're telling me Vaapad can't evolve and adapt like everything else in that overrated era ?
You're wrong. You can use different states of mind with Vaapad. The reason why nobody uses
Vaapad in that overrated era is BC they don't understand how to use it or expand on it
to make adaptable to their era.
What you just said in those examples is 1 of many things that this style can adapt and evolve
through different practitioners. If they choose Vaapad or Juyo.

Next reply. You're still wrong. Force speed is a Force power,so is Force Lightnining.
So Vaapad was using his powers against him as well as emotions.
Jinsokai Takia explained this. So did I and everyone else.
You can't absorb or reflect Force speed,BUT you can adapt and counter it.

The Force is their Power. A Power that each Force organization uses.A Power that Vaapad
uses against you.Vaapad is at once a lightsaber style,a state of mind, a tangible Power and unarmed martial art or hand to hand take your pick.

The environment thing is right BUT like everything else can be used against you.
Force drain? I never said like that.
I'm talking about Tutaminis.

This is what Yoda and all those other guys used to absorb Force Lightnining.
Look up Tutaminis in wookieepedia,Jedi Path.

Vaapad uses Light and Dark powers. This is were the "tangible Power " thing comes from
hello? Force Crush,Battle Mind, Force Grip,etc.
Who Knows what else My Point still we have n't seen Vaapad Full Power besides Sidious vs Mace and etc. I stated this in past replies.

This is what makes it different from Juyo, Arhael.
Juyo is the foundation of Vaapad.
Shatter Point explains some what of what Vaapad is.
Wookieepedia explains the rest. Try other sources
Just as Shein is part of the foundation for Form V.
Shein and Djem So are NOT the Same.

They share the same goal: Counter Attack .
Djem So created from Makashi and Soresu
Shein created from Soresu.


Vaapad was created and Founded by Mace Windu.
Fact, proven. end of story.
"I am called a Master because I INVENTED A LETHAL STYLE".

NEXT REPLY

I give Yoda his due, BUT being the most Powerful Jedi Master COULD N'T
defeat the Most Powerful Sith. Mace,HIS JUNIOR/ SECOND ONLY DID.
FACT. PROVEN. END OF STORY.

"THE SCRIPT" was designed for another over rated Skywalker to bring the Force back
into Balance. Which he failed. His opportunity to do that was WHEN Mace defeated Sidious,PERIOD.

Instead of trying to learn a "POWER or TECHNIQUE OF THE FORCE that was out of Both Sidious and Anakin's reach. He decides to side with Sidious thus saving him from Mace's DEATH STRIKE OR DEATH BLOW take your pick.



"THE SCRIPT" ALSO states that Mace was or has to Die ? Why ?
When Jedi have been known to survive such FALLS.

Even over rated Luke SkyWalker survived falls.
It was designed for Jedi in his era to survive all those Vongs.
Only a CHOSEN FEW survived the 501st and the other Clones.(Why)?

To say Vaapad CAN'T EVOLVE OR ADAPT to over rated Skywalkers era or beyond that
is like saying Martial Arts or any fighting method can't evolve and adapt to the eras of our time. Bruce Lee introduced the world of his time to mixed martial arts.
In orthe words Jeet Kune Do which since then has adapted and evolved.

NEXT REPLY
IN His Vaapad State Mace is unbeatable in Light Saber Combat.
No one in the Jedi Order can defeat Him LSC when he uses Vaapad.
Depa Billaba is still a close enough factor as the ONLY Jedi in his league
When it comes to Vaapad.
Mace DID ADMIT TO DEPA SURPASSING HIM IN BLADE WORK.

I don't remember the pages but its in shatter point, wookieepeda, and other sources.
This has been proven.

NEXT REPLY
To continue the debate, Depa was getting stronger when she was feeding off the fear
from the inhabitants of Pelek Baw.

And from the death's of each AKK Guard.
So your reply of it doesn't make you stronger is wrong .
Read Shatterpoint. 394pp

About Yoda and Mace to Supreme Chancellor Palpatine about Depa Billaba.
pp21,22,Yoda: A powerful form it is. Deadliest of all.....But dangerous it is -
to its master,as well as its opponent.

About Dooku pp5 and 6.

He's above him in Sabers.(To Me) In a battle in pure Sabers who will fatigue first?
I say Yoda.I mean who's gonna Brag that they're better than Yoda besides Sidious
and Anakin Skywalker.
Nobody argues with Yoda.

You're not gonna hear or read anything about Mace above Yoda as swordsmen.
BC Mace HUMBLES himself to Yoda's skill. They don't just give
anybody the title of MASTER OF THE ORDER. you know.

Wrong... In contest of the Force ? Mace is just as good.
Vaapad is part using Force Powers, yall did know this right?
I mean really? In a Force Battle?

A TK Battle with either Yoda or Sidious or Vader?
Check Shatter Point, ...Nuff Said...

Like I said we have n't seen him Fully Let Loose.
So to say he'll loose in a Force Battle is BS
When again Vaapad was created as part saber, part Force, part unarmed.
That's one of the differences to Juyo and Vaapad,
Vaapad doesn't have Juyo's weakness against Force Attacks.

Why do you think Mace Windu is Second Only to Yoda,?
Besides "THE SCRIPT" and other BS?

Next

A 1000 Vongs? who is this dude?
What about the Voxyn? And May the Force help you, Vornskrs?

How did the Sith tame them to guard their tombs and strong holds?
When these pit bull wolf looking creatures attack and kill any Force user?

The Vongs were using them,too.

Alright, there maybe other things greater than Vaapad
BUT I'm talking about Vaapad and its Future Practitioners .
Everything you just said about using love for others, Pain, Unique connections
to Force.

Who says a practitioner can't bring the same things to Vaapad?
Or have the same State of Mind?

Everything is not just for the Skywalkers or the Solo's.
I read somewhere that Vaapad has different levels of immersion
different levels of mentality.
l'm trying to find that source.

It gave good examples.
l'm just saying Vaapad is not Juyo.
It completes Juyo but it's not Juyo.

Shien is not Djem So
It completes Form V.
But they are not the same.

You also said there is nothing to evolve.
Why?
In Luke's era it's still forbidden to use Juyo or Vaapad.

Are you seriously arguing that Mace Windu>Yoda? Because pretty much every sourcebook today hails Yoda as the best duelist of the PT order.
"I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council members. Must I demonstrate what would happen should you fight Obi-Wan Kenobi or Cin Drallig, Mace Windu, or stars help you, Yoda?"
^Implications that Yoda is the best duelist.
He is often grouped to be the greatest Master of the era, a great warrior, a brilliant strategist, a master of TK, a master duelist, a Master at Tutaminis, a Master of Battle Meditation. Hell, Yoda is quite honestly the most versatile Jedi Master in history, and the second most powerful.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Alright, there maybe other things greater than Vaapad
BUT I'm talking about Vaapad and its Future Practitioners .
Everything you just said about using love for others, Pain, Unique connections
to Force.

Who says a practitioner can't bring the same things to Vaapad?
Or have the same State of Mind?

Everything is not just for the Skywalkers or the Solo's.
I read somewhere that Vaapad has different levels of immersion
different levels of mentality.
l'm trying to find that source.

It gave good examples.
l'm just saying Vaapad is not Juyo.
It completes Juyo but it's not Juyo.
Obviously you would support the master of Juyo/Vapaad, given your username, however, you can't deny the things that Vader has walked away from. Sure, Starkiller defeated him, but Vader survived a level of Force Lightning far beyond what Palpatine unleashed. I am not saying who would win, but it would not be a slaughter...Vader does have decades of experience as a Sith Lord and has learned much. Look at his feats in Force Unleashed....
Shien is not Djem So
It completes Form V.
But they are not the same.

You also said there is nothing to evolve.
Why?
In Luke's era it's still forbidden to use Juyo or Vaapad.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Her blade work surpassed his.
source shatter point,wookieepedia,clone wars comics.

You're right about the duel part,though .

Correction... PARTS of her bladework had surpassed his... and this is likely referring to the technical aspect of such.

BTW - Wookieepedia isn't considered a source so much as an open forum for posting whatever in the hell one likes... with some reference to actual source material thrown in for good measure. So many erroneous claims have been influenced by Wookieepedia articles.

No, he can't. Vaapad itself is a state of mind. You can't have multiple states of mind at the same time. Force users can't multi-task like i5 intel, they mostly focus on one particular thing.


I brought other examples apart from Skywalkers. Marek, Ganner Rysode, Kenobi, can name quite a few more less known characters.

Obviously there are different levels of immersion. State of mind depends on emotions, they cannot be replicated artificially. You can't make yourself to be more calm than normally or make your self enjoy something more than you normally do, or love someone, when you don't. That's why all characters have inconsistent performance. Fundamental aspect of Vaapad is to relish fight. Windu can't relish fights more than he feels. And fight with Sidious certainly was the most thrilling one, he reached his deepest immersion into Vaapad at that point.


Vaapad brings absolutely nothing new on technical level. Difference is that with Juyo user is required to use emotions that lead to the darkside but Jedi can do it only on limited level. But with Vaapad user can draw on darkside emotions without feeling guilty and getting consumed by them, so they can lose restraints and still remain Jedi.


As I said emotions can't be replicated artifitially. Force user feels differently depending on circumstances. Neither Windu nor others can experience the same state of mind each time.


Sorry but your statement that it is prohibited to use Juyo, Vaapad or any other style in NJO is completely unsupported.

First, there is no Forms in post RotJ. This knowledge was lost and new styles were invented.

Second, Jaina trained with Mandalorians and Mara utilized her Assasin skills, which is far worse than whatever Jedi style. Jacen as Jedi utilized pain, fear and anger and everyone even followed his idea for a while that there is no light or dark.

Luke himself didn't mind to use anger in some situations. In fight with Caedus he was angered, put whole strength into attacks and utilized some of the durtiest tricks known in combat.

And as I said Jaina and Saba Sebatyne practised the same thing as Vaapad. Jaina - thriving on chaos and Saba - relishing hunt and getting even happier on facing worsy foes.

Vader would kick ass in this fight

Originally posted by Beastyking
Vader would kick ass in this fight
I agree, but Vader is very much hated here....Too many Mace fans....

This is not about being fans of Mace.
It's just Fact that Mace kicks Vader's Ass
With either saber unarmed or TK.

Originally posted by Arhael
No, he can't. Vaapad itself is a state of mind. You can't have multiple states of mind at the same time. Force users can't multi-task like i5 intel, they mostly focus on one particular thing.


I brought other examples apart from Skywalkers. Marek, Ganner Rysode, Kenobi, can name quite a few more less known characters.

Obviously there are different levels of immersion. State of mind depends on emotions, they cannot be replicated artificially. You can't make yourself to be more calm than normally or make your self enjoy something more than you normally do, or love someone, when you don't. That's why all characters have inconsistent performance. Fundamental aspect of Vaapad is to relish fight. Windu can't relish fights more than he feels. And fight with Sidious certainly was the most thrilling one, he reached his deepest immersion into Vaapad at that point.


Vaapad brings absolutely nothing new on technical level. Difference is that with Juyo user is required to use emotions that lead to the darkside but Jedi can do it only on limited level. But with Vaapad user can draw on darkside emotions without feeling guilty and getting consumed by them, so they can lose restraints and still remain Jedi.


As I said emotions can't be replicated artifitially. Force user feels differently depending on circumstances. Neither Windu nor others can experience the same state of mind each time.


Sorry but your statement that it is prohibited to use Juyo, Vaapad or any other style in NJO is completely unsupported.

First, there is no Forms in post RotJ. This knowledge was lost and new styles were invented.

Second, Jaina trained with Mandalorians and Mara utilized her Assasin skills, which is far worse than whatever Jedi style. Jacen as Jedi utilized pain, fear and anger and everyone even followed his idea for a while that there is no light or dark.

Luke himself didn't mind to use anger in some situations. In fight with Caedus he was angered, put whole strength into attacks and utilized some of the durtiest tricks known in combat.

And as I said Jaina and Saba Sebatyne practised the same thing as Vaapad. Jaina - thriving on chaos and Saba - relishing hunt and getting even happier on facing worsy foes.

The script calls for no forms in ROTJ. But Luke mirrors his Father's customized Form V.
Who said you can use all of them at once ?
You can only use one at a time,which one is up to the practitioner.

That's one of the reasons why I don't read NJO.
In Shattter Point, Depa was having a talk with Mace
about being more than a Jedi in order to win the CW.

I guess we can say Jaina and Saba fits this theory.
I agree with you,so far but Vaapad is more than just relish fights
Mace likes to fight, his biggest weakness.

What I'm trying to say is he is not a dumb fighter who constantly makes mistakes.
The man set himself up to get closer to Depa by getting himself beaten up!
Then afterwards said it was fun?

Ok I gave Yoda his props, by the Script he is all those things
but he isn't the only master of everything you just said.
Again who's gonna argue with Yoda!

Wookieepedia says the same about Yoda so what's the difference?
It's a source so,use it....if it works for you.

Ok you've answered some of my questions for Vaapad. thanks.
Maybe I'll read NJO I'm not making any promises. I still don't like that era.

So I guess Yoda was the Power and Mace was the Blade.
You guys made pretty good points, good sources.
Good debate.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Are you seriously arguing that Mace Windu>Yoda? Because pretty much every sourcebook today hails Yoda as the best duelist of the PT order.
"I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council members. Must I demonstrate what would happen should you fight Obi-Wan Kenobi or Cin Drallig, Mace Windu, or stars help you, Yoda?"
^Implications that Yoda is the best duelist.
He is often grouped to be the greatest Master of the era, a great warrior, a brilliant strategist, a master of TK, a master duelist, a Master at Tutaminis, a Master of Battle Meditation. Hell, Yoda is quite honestly the most versatile Jedi Master in history, and the second most powerful.

I'm not saying Mace is greater or Yoda is greater.Their are both great at what they bring to
the Order. But Yoda isn't the ONLY master in what you listed. He isn't the only versatiled master
in the Order.There were others.

Yoda doesn't think of himself as a warrior, but a teacher, a diplomat.
Sourcebooks are based on whatever the Creator says it is. Sidious was all these things,too.
And look what happened to him. Mace had the easy way out,being betrayed and blasted out
a so many stories window. And Vader, well you saw what happened to him, too.

Wait a min. you can use those emotions .
I Know it's a state of mind.
Yeah it relishes fights, I get it.
But he loves to fight
he loves the Republic
he loves the Jedi Order.
In both Shatter Point and ROTS,


He was willing to give his life to save them.
So that doesn't count with the other examples you said?

I think as long as controlled emotions are involved in Vaapad
The State of Mind will concur with either mentality or emotion.
Giving you that Focus to take the enemy out.

If that mentality doesn't work then you change strategies and adapt.
You change mentalities as well.
That's what I meant.
Good debate I learned something new.

Juyo is the wild card,here. why was it left unfinished all these years?
In the past,past masters still practiced Juyo.
The Sith say its complete and it was created for them.

The feeding off the darkside, feeding off emtions is all Juyo and Sith.
Arhael your replies on this,let's explore Juyo. Guys your replies on this.

Emotions are stimulated but what you are thinking about.
Anakin loved Padme. Yet, during fight with Dooku he wasn't thinking about her, he was thinking about Dooku's taunting and wanted to avenge for everything he did, such thinking angered him. Whatever Windu loved, during fight he was thinking about Vaapad, he was required to think about winning his opponent and relish it. And you can't just change mentality according to strategy, if it doesn't work.
For example, Anakin easily gets angered, so either he restrains himself which weakens him or uses his anger getting much stronger. He can't maintain calm like Yoda or Kenobi. Same for Windu, he can't be calm because of his inner darkness and that's why he invented Vaapad, so instead of restraining himself he goes all-out by using darkside. If Windu could be as calm as Yoda, Vaapad would be absolutly useless to him. Same for Dooku, he was a Jedi whole life, yet, he became more powerful as Sith. Characters like Dooku, Windu and Anakin are stronger, when using darkside.

Everyone knows that the darkside makes you stronger in the SHORT TERM.

Darkside useage is either a short-term adrenaline rush, giving increased power, but a ton of fatigue afterwards, or prolonged useage can lead to greater power in the long run.

Lightside useage is the opposite, the primary goal is long term peace and focus, which leads to greater power,

Dooku was stronger when he turned Sith because he wasn't tied down by Jedi rules, and easily could remain focused and cool-headed enough to manipulate the force without sinking into any sort of blind rage. Like when he demo'd the obelisks for Opress.

Unrestrained rage vs Tempered focus.

Just my opinion.

Originally posted by Arhael
Emotions are stimulated but what you are thinking about.
Anakin loved Padme. Yet, during fight with Dooku he wasn't thinking about her, he was thinking about Dooku's taunting and wanted to avenge for everything he did, such thinking angered him. Whatever Windu loved, during fight he was thinking about Vaapad, he was required to think about winning his opponent and relish it. And you can't just change mentality according to strategy, if it doesn't work.
For example, Anakin easily gets angered, so either he restrains himself which weakens him or uses his anger getting much stronger. He can't maintain calm like Yoda or Kenobi. Same for Windu, he can't be calm because of his inner darkness and that's why he invented Vaapad, so instead of restraining himself he goes all-out by using darkside. If Windu could be as calm as Yoda, Vaapad would be absolutly useless to him. Same for Dooku, he was a Jedi whole life, yet, he became more powerful as Sith. Characters like Dooku, Windu and Anakin are stronger, when using darkside.



Anakin uses anger blindly anyway.
You can change mentality.
You're wrong, Vaapad wouldn't be useless to him if he was calm.
he was calm not in a Yoda or Kenobi calm.
Both Juyo and Vaapad requires the practitioner to be calm and in control

if you have the I want to win (mentality )with your strategy and you suddenly start loosing
what do you do? you change your strategy and your state of mind.

if you change it to I want to fight (mentality )with your strategy and you suddenly change the
pace or length of the battle or duel by either stalemating or loosing.

Either way you're gonna either die,survive, win, loose or stalemate.


if you use either mentality you can still change strategies.
The same goes for strategy if you change mentalities.

Now to kill the hype of emotions between Anakin and Mace.
Read what Vaapad is again.
Like I said Anakin uses anger blindly anyway,he (at that time )
couldn't control his anger thus letting Obi Wan cut off his limbs
due to the high ground strategy.

Mace does n't go all out using the darkside that would be Sora Bulq.
if he did he would have fell to the dark side.
Mace uses the dark side to a certain degree.

Love is still an emotion.
he loved the Republic
he loved the Jedi Order.

he uses that to fuel Vaapad.
he loves to fight
he loves to win.

When ever the Republic or Jedi Order is threated, he's gonna use Vaapad based on what I just
said.His weakness is inner darkness.

What is his Inner darkness? his love of fighting? his love of winning? the thrill of battle?
I say it's all these and whatever characteristics that are unJedi or in other words anti Jedi.

He is the most dangerous Jedi besides Depa and Quinlan Vos.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
Everyone knows that the darkside makes you stronger in the SHORT TERM.

Darkside useage is either a short-term adrenaline rush, giving increased power, but a ton of fatigue afterwards, or prolonged useage can lead to greater power in the long run.

Lightside useage is the opposite, the primary goal is long term peace and focus, which leads to greater power,

Dooku was stronger when he turned Sith because he wasn't tied down by Jedi rules, and easily could remain focused and cool-headed enough to manipulate the force without sinking into any sort of blind rage. Like when he demo'd the obelisks for Opress.

Unrestrained rage vs Tempered focus.

Just my opinion.


And a very good opinion. key word Jedi Rules.
Both Juyo and Vaapad required you to be focused and cool-headed to use them
without sinking into any sort of blind rage.

Vaapad gives you an option to wield it with or without Jedi Rules and Restraint.

Tempered Aggression & Vornskr's Ferocity vs Unrestrained Rage.

It's that I refuse to believe that you can't change your state of mind and your strategy.
At the same time in the midst of battle!!! I won't believe that.

You put up a very good debate but this thing with the emotions when we both know both
styles uses and feeds on emotions light or dark in Vaapad's case.

you brought up Anakin and Pademe'.
What about Sora and Depa?
Which were very touchy and sore subjects and Vaapad being....personal for Mace.
Jedi vs Sith pp112 ,113,and 114.

Your point is vice versa to Mace. except Mace is in control of his anger and emotions.
Anakin is not.

Again, you can change your strategy and your state of mind.
Example Summertime War and the whole Haruun Kal system for the republic.
pp346,347,348. and further pages in the book.
Both feats accomplished at the same time.

Mace vs Depa vs Kar.
Example he didn't want to kill Depa
he could have killed Kar but decided not to.
Both would have turned him to the darkside.

Sorry but wrong. Juyo and Vaapad requires to use Darkside. And Darkside has nothing to do with calm, it's exact oposite. Windu during fight with Sidious was anything but calm.

Anakin's blind anger is what made him so powerful:
"His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell."

At that point he didn't care that darkside was consuming him. He didn't try to control his anger like he normally did before. He stopped doubting himself. He completly abandoned all the Jedi dogmas and morals, lost all restraints. He completely gave in to his anger. Pure rage focused at single opponent with single desire to defeat him. Reckless, uncontrolled but immenselly powerful and unstopable.

And with the same state of mind he fought with Kenobi. Single desire to defeat his opponent without caring for anything else.


Windu made the same ultimate mistake. He tried to strike down defensless opponent, which is completely against all Jedi principals. Darkside took over Windu and it cost his life as well as completed Anakin's fall to the darkside and made Order 66 happen. Windu is to be blamed as much as Anakin.

In comparison Luke in RotJ refused to strike down defensless opponent and as result lightside prevailed, Anakin was finally redeemed and the balance in the Force restored.

Darkside cannot be defeated by darkside. That's what Windu never understood. No matter how long he tempered with darkside, it gave him greater power but like other Vaapad users it led to his downfall.


You still don't get it.
Here is scenario.
You fight a guy. Then he says: "SUCK YA MAMA".
Either you gonna get pissed off and beat crap out of him. Or you will try to control your anger but controlling anger will distract you, break your focus and allow him to beat you up.
Same in SW. Kenobi in PM got enrage at Maul and as result started overwhelming him. Years later Kenobi fought Maul again at first he even tooled Maul but then Maul started taunting him about death of Qui-Gon. Kenobi as experienced Jedi controlled his anger but it completely broke his concentration and as result Maul started tooling him instead.

As you see state of mind is not something you can change, it depends on your personality and experience.

And again. It's not enough just to love something, you need to focus on it. You can't think about multiple things at the same time. Windu can't think about republic and Vaapad simultaniously.

You can change your state of mind.
It's not thinking about multiple things.
if I fight a guy with that poor excuse you gave for not controlling your anger in a fight?
I'll get my ass kicked.

Control is key in everything you do.
Your anger will distract you,there is no try -to when I'm in any fight
Anger telegraphs your reactions,making you less effective.

Negativity makes you rigid,and when you lose flexibility
opponents can easily target techniques around you
As simply as water can circle stone.

I'll prove it.
What is a state of mind?
noun 1. mindset- a habitual or characteristic mental attitude that determines how you
will interpret and respond to situations.
mentallity,mindset,out look,attitude mental attitude

a complex mental state involving beliefs and feelings and values
and dispotions to act in certain ways; he had the attitude that fighting was fun.


approach -ideas or actions intended to deal with a problem or situation;
(example) "his approach to every problem is to draw up a list of pros and cons "
"an attack on inflation "
"his plan of attack was misguided"

plan of attack,attack; conceptual,formulation,conceptualisation - inventing or contriving an idea
or explanation and formulating it mentally.

State of mind

Noun: attitude perspective outlook approach mood dispotion frame of mind
mindset way of looking at things.

Still think you can't change YOUR state of mind?
WELL you can and I just did on this situation.

correction: light and dark side use. I never said it didn't.
love is an emotion he can feed off of just like anger hate aggression compassion.

Luke wanted to save his father (love and compassion )
Mace wanted to kill Sidious who was a threat to what HE loved (The Jedi Order,The Republic)

His mistake was just like the book said his failure of sensing Anakin's ShatterPoint.
That's 1 of the reasons he told Anakin to wait in the Council's Chambers.
Mace sensed a great deal of confusion in Anakin which was clouding his judgement.

Mace did not fall to dark side the book or any other sources didn't say he did.
Juyo and Vaapad's philosophy concept what ever you wanna call it is
The Battle is not over until your opponent is dead. Never relax your guard. Always be ready .

Mace understood this, he was free of his Jedi restraint in that area,that's why Juyo and Vaapad
are different from the other six. Form Vll is the Mastery of control, not the loss of it .
That is what makes this form lethal and more dangerous than the others

To draw out your victory is foolish. Get the killing done. Then move on.
Sidious is not your ordinary defenseless opponent.
Anakin was only thinking of Power. Vaapad would have truly mastered him.


Sidious had control of the courts the Army , everything .
He was truly too dangerous to be left alive .
That's why he was a Jedi Master and Master of the Order ,to make a tough and difficult
decision to kill a sworn enemy of the Jedi with that much power ?


He did right to strike him down armed or unarmed.
The person to blame is Anakin,alone.
He allowed Order 66 to happen then he WILLING joined the Sith.

Now what you think was gonna happen?
He gets arrested/bails out
Charge the Jedi with treason Order 66 happens either way it goes.

All that for what? he didn't learn how to stop her from dieing/heck he was the that killed her.
The only thing I blame Mace for is not sensing Anakin's shatter point
refusing to send Anakin to fight Grievous and for not waiting on Yoda to return

So they both could duel Sidious tgether instead those lame might as well be Jedi knights.
Even Yoda says Anakin /Vader betrayed the Jedi so The blame is still Anakin's, alone.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
I'll prove it.
What is a state of mind?
noun 1. mindset- a habitual or characteristic mental attitude that determines how you
will interpret and respond to situations.
mentallity,mindset,out look,attitude mental attitude

a complex mental state involving beliefs and feelings and values
and dispotions to act in certain ways; he had the attitude that fighting was fun.


approach -ideas or actions intended to deal with a problem or situation;
(example) "his approach to every problem is to draw up a list of pros and cons "
"an attack on inflation "
"his plan of attack was misguided"

plan of attack,attack; conceptual,formulation,conceptualisation - inventing or contriving an idea
or explanation and formulating it mentally.

State of mind

Noun: attitude perspective outlook approach mood disposition frame of mind
mindset way of looking at things.

Still think you can't change YOUR state of mind?
WELL you can and I just did on this situation.


So to kill this you can change your state of mind. every body does .
Example Again , if your team is playing only offense and in the state of mind of they want to win
but are down by 15 and 4:00min. on the clock, how are they gonna win?

by staying with the we want to win and play nothing but offense?
No they change their way of play ,strategy , state of mind, and play defense as well as offense,
And most of all play as a team.


That's why Vaapad is also a state of mind
you can have a mindset in the form of or use as attitude perspective out look
approach mood disposition frame of mind mentality . combine any of these with skill
the Force technique strategy or tactic. Still think you can't change? Says you...

Originally posted by Arhael
Sorry but wrong. Juyo and Vaapad requires to use Darkside. And Darkside has nothing to do with calm, it's exact oposite. Windu during fight with Sidious was anything but calm.

Anakin's blind anger is what made him so powerful:
"His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell."

At that point he didn't care that darkside was consuming him. He didn't try to control his anger like he normally did before. He stopped doubting himself. He completly abandoned all the Jedi dogmas and morals, lost all restraints. He completely gave in to his anger. Pure rage focused at single opponent with single desire to defeat him. Reckless, uncontrolled but immenselly powerful and unstopable.

And with the same state of mind he fought with Kenobi. Single desire to defeat his opponent without caring for anything else.


Windu made the same ultimate mistake. He tried to strike down defensless opponent, which is completely against all Jedi principals. Darkside took over Windu and it cost his life as well as completed Anakin's fall to the darkside and made Order 66 happen. Windu is to be blamed as much as Anakin.

In comparison Luke in RotJ refused to strike down defensless opponent and as result lightside prevailed, Anakin was finally redeemed and the balance in the Force restored.

Darkside cannot be defeated by darkside. That's what Windu never understood. No matter how long he tempered with darkside, it gave him greater power but like other Vaapad users it led to his downfall.


You still don't get it.
Here is scenario.
You fight a guy. Then he says: "SUCK YA MAMA".
Either you gonna get pissed off and beat crap out of him. Or you will try to control your anger but controlling anger will distract you, break your focus and allow him to beat you up.
Same in SW. Kenobi in PM got enrage at Maul and as result started overwhelming him. Years later Kenobi fought Maul again at first he even tooled Maul but then Maul started taunting him about death of Qui-Gon. Kenobi as experienced Jedi controlled his anger but it completely broke his concentration and as result Maul started tooling him instead.

As you see state of mind is not something you can change, it depends on your personality and experience.

And again. It's not enough just to love something, you need to focus on it. You can't think about multiple things at the same time. Windu can't think about republic and Vaapad simultaniously.

Again to kill the emotion part between Mace and Anakin.
You just proved me right again, blind anger can get u killed .
It got him losing his limbs .
if it made you unstoppable (HE) Anakin would have killed Obi Wan.
It costed the trust of Jedi Council and the Rank of Master


The Tusken Raider thing I agree 100%.
I would have killed the whole Tusken Raider Population not just that one clan.
That was his Mother, they had no right .

Mace had enough self control to keep from sinking into the Dark Side.
He had no power over the Dark Side and the Dark Side had no power over him either,
With its promises of power and whispers of easy victory Mace resisted the Dark Side.

Vaapad wasn't Mace 's down fall.
He mastered Vaapad.
Anakin was Mace and the entire Jedi Order's down fall.

You can't say Mace fell to the dark side (you have no proof )
You can't say Vaapad was his down fall again no proof.

The only Proof we have is Anakin betrayed the Jedi Order.
Not Mace Not Yoda, Anakin .

Yoda said it himself in ESB.
Obi Wan said it in SW ESB and ROTJ .

It wasn't rage or the Dark Side that made Mace raise his Saber to Sidious for the death strike
It was his Love for the Jedi Order and the Republic and the Simple Fact that Palpatine
was a Sith Lord.

Armed or Unarmed he was too dangerous to live.
Plus the Sith spit was using Force Lightning and he truly wasn't unarmed.

You said he tried to fight the dark side with the dark side.
No this is wrong too, BC Sith fight each other with the Dark Side for a millennia
It always came down to the strongest Sith as the new Sith Lord and master .
Rule of Two, Rule of the Strong, One Sith, should I go on ?

Even the Sith in Luke Skywalker over rated era they fought for Supremecy.
And I don't even like his era.
To really kill this thread and the one about Vaapad. I gave you proof behind almost everything
on this thread and you still refuse to believe that you can change your state of mind

Your focus, your strategy. and you can say is you can't think about multiple things
at one time your wrong

Once again I"ll prove it,
Anakin did to fuel his anger in LOE
When you're in a fight your focus is your opponents' whole being and your surroundings.
Nothing else matters


They were good examples but here's the shatterpoint to everything you said thus far
Maul taunted Obi wan about Qui Gon's death, Distraction

Maul followed this tactic with hand to hand combat which is heavily used in Juyo.
Maul was also calm and in control the whole duel.
That thing you said about Mace being not calm.

Look up Juyo in POJ and BOS .
Then look up both Juyo and Vaapad in any source and you'll see calm or something similar
to the word calm.

So you see I've been away reading and researching I have more proof from where that came
from. I have studied Juyo and Vaapad a long time. the other styles too. but this style is my primary
chosen style and my personal favorite.

Juyomaster34 I think you need to write a bit more. Just so we can all properly grasp what your saying.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Juyomaster34 I think you need to write a bit more. Just so we can all properly grasp what your saying.

What's up Darth Power, me and Arhael are having a debate about whether you can change your
state of mind or not. I say you can

he says you can't.

As you can see we're on Vaapad's state of mind.
he says you can't focus on multiple things.
I'm not saying you focus on multiple things,
I'm saying you can change your state of mind and whatever else
if its not working

You find other ways to solve the problem.
Example, We know Vaapad is also a state of mind,
I gave him the definition as well as examples of the SOM(state of mind)

I was trying so very hard to say that you can change your SOM,
your strategy, your fighting method.

Ok the want to win mentality,
if this mentality doesn't work for you then
some other mind set or approach etc. might will .

Vaapad can still be weilded with or without the SOM,
The rest is in the thread. I still believe that I proved my point .

Ok (Example )
My state of mind is (I want to win )
My strategy is to kill the chancellor and end the war.
I sense a shatter point to end the war and in the chancellor.

I'm slightly losing,what are options? How do I win?

Wrong. Windu invented Vaapad because he couldn't change his state of mind on first place. He couldn't become pure avatar of light like Yoda.

And as I said you can't use Vaapad and draw on love for somebody simultaniously. You can't think about CoD3 and your girlfriend. You need to choose. If you think about CoD3, you might get pissed off at remembering how you couldn't complete a level. Likewise, if you think about girlfriend, you might remember how she wasn't letting you to play CoD3 and still get pissed off.

Could Kenobi predict that Maul will taunt him? No. He failed to maintain his focus and started losing.

Whatever Jedi think about during combat, it doesn't guaranty to change or improve their state of mind, it's unpredictable. Jacen experience deepest known Oneness with the Force and he knew that he would never be able to experience it again.


Your logic fails within confines of SW.

Because of flaw in the Old Order system Anain had to keep his relationship with Padme secret and, when he started seeing bad dreams with her, he couldn't even share his problem with anyone. And because of that Sidous could influence him. Sidious tried to convince him that Jedi betraid republic but Anakin wasn't convinced and reported to Order. In that moment, when Sidious was at Windu's mercy, Anakin was still in doubt. He needed guidance in that moment. And Windu instead of showing good example, tried to kill defenceless opponent.

Finding easy solution IS the path of the darkside. And this is perfect example why. If Windu didn't try to kill Sidious, Anakin wouldn't need to attack him and wouldn't turn to the darkside. And even if Sidious escaped or took over goverment later, there would still be thee powerful Jedi alive: Yoda, Windu and Anakin(not Vader) himself. Anakin would fulfil the prophecy without becoming Vader.

Luke's quote to Sidious Empire's End: "I won’t fall into your trap, Palpatine. Death is not the answer for you. You are my prisoner".

Luke had the same choice to strike down defenceless Jacen years later but that could turn his son to darkside, so he didn't do that despite Jacen being clear danger to republic and to everything Luke stood for.

Anakin was telling Windu not to kill Sidious, yet, Windu ignored him and failed to sence confusion of young Jedi because darkside was clouding his mind. Darkside lures to take easier choice. Windu took the easiest choice and you know the consequences.

Originally posted by Arhael
Wrong. Windu invented Vaapad because he couldn't change his state of mind on first place. He couldn't become pure avatar of light like Yoda.

And as I said you can't use Vaapad and draw on love for somebody simultaniously. You can't think about CoD3 and your girlfriend. You need to choose. If you think about CoD3, you might get pissed off at remembering how you couldn't complete a level. Likewise, if you think about girlfriend, you might remember how she wasn't letting you to play CoD3 and still get pissed off.

Could Kenobi predict that Maul will taunt him? No. He failed to maintain his focus and started losing.

Whatever Jedi think about during combat, it doesn't guaranty to change or improve their state of mind, it's unpredictable. Jacen experience deepest known Oneness with the Force and he knew that he would never be able to experience it again.


Your logic fails within confines of SW.

Because of flaw in the Old Order system Anain had to keep his relationship with Padme secret and, when he started seeing bad dreams with her, he couldn't even share his problem with anyone. And because of that Sidous could influence him. Sidious tried to convince him that Jedi betraid republic but Anakin wasn't convinced and reported to Order. In that moment, when Sidious was at Windu's mercy, Anakin was still in doubt. He needed guidance in that moment. And Windu instead of showing good example, tried to kill defenceless opponent.

Finding easy solution IS the path of the darkside. And this is perfect example why. If Windu didn't try to kill Sidious, Anakin wouldn't need to attack him and wouldn't turn to the darkside. And even if Sidious escaped or took over goverment later, there would still be thee powerful Jedi alive: Yoda, Windu and Anakin(not Vader) himself. Anakin would fulfil the prophecy without becoming Vader.

Luke's quote to Sidious Empire's End: "I won’t fall into your trap, Palpatine. Death is not the answer for you. You are my prisoner".

Luke had the same choice to strike down defenceless Jacen years later but that could turn his son to darkside, so he didn't do that despite Jacen being clear danger to republic and to everything Luke stood for.

Anakin was telling Windu not to kill Sidious, yet, Windu ignored him and failed to sence confusion of young Jedi because darkside was clouding his mind. Darkside lures to take easier choice. Windu took the easiest choice and you know the consequences.
Vapaad is a lightsaber style that is incredibly risky because one must actually enjoy the fight to fully utilize the form. Mace was in this state while ignoring Anakin's distraught mind. If he handled the situation like any other Jedi, Yoda, Obi-Wan, (not that obi wan would have put Sidious on the ground), They would have felt Anakin's conflicted state. Mace ignored the signs that Anakin was torn, and this was his undoing and ultimately the undoimg of the Republic he loved.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Vapaad is a lightsaber style that is incredibly risky because one must actually enjoy the fight to fully utilize the form. Mace was in this state while ignoring Anakin's distraught mind. If he handled the situation like any other Jedi, Yoda, Obi-Wan, (not that obi wan would have put Sidious on the ground), They would have felt Anakin's conflicted state. Mace ignored the signs that Anakin was torn, and this was his undoing and ultimately the undoimg of the Republic he loved.

What is this?
I know what Vaapad is and what it truly does.
That's the difference between Mace and your over rated Vader suits
He's no ordinary Jedi.
Mace and Yoda were the TWO real Jedi that wanted to kill Sidious
and SAVE the Republic.

Your Boy the so called chosen one standing in the corner crying like a lil *****
about a woman HE ended up killing.

But he's bad a$$ right? then HE jumps at another REAL Jedi Master on the High Ground?
How stupid is that?

For the record Mace THOUGHT the lil cry baby was gonna help him kill
Sidious. Not pull a ***** move and side with the enemy because he's scared and confused.
His undoing was trusting this cry baby to do a man's job,

Which led to him using flunkies and other dark Jedi to do the killing which he took the credit
for.
The 501st killed most of the Jedi in the Temple not Vader.

Before you jump in this Vaapad business read some more threads before you hurt your self.
I just tell like it is and you got mad about...Vader. Out of all people.

I can see Yoda or Palpatine,heck the whole Star Wars Universe but Vader?
Dude check your facts calm down have a Coke and a Smile
I'm just having fun We're not getting paid to be here,,,,,RELAX

Originally posted by juyomaster34
What is this?
I know what Vaapad is and what it truly does.
That's the difference between Mace and your over rated Vader suits
He's no ordinary Jedi.
Mace and Yoda were the TWO real Jedi that wanted to kill Sidious
and SAVE the Republic.

Your Boy the so called chosen one standing in the corner crying like a lil *****
about a woman HE ended up killing.

But he's bad a$$ right? then HE jumps at another REAL Jedi Master on the High Ground?
How stupid is that?

For the record Mace THOUGHT the lil cry baby was gonna help him kill
Sidious. Not pull a ***** move and side with the enemy because he's scared and confused.
His undoing was trusting this cry baby to do a man's job,

Which led to him using flunkies and other dark Jedi to do the killing which he took the credit
for.
The 501st killed most of the Jedi in the Temple not Vader.

Before you jump in this Vaapad business read some more threads before you hurt your self.
I just tell like it is and you got mad about...Vader. Out of all people.

I can see Yoda or Palpatine,heck the whole Star Wars Universe but Vader?
Dude check your facts calm down have a Coke and a Smile
I'm just having fun We're not getting paid to be here,,,,,RELAX



Look. Vader became much more in control after he got put in the suit and learned what being a Sith Lord is all about. I agree that anakin was a whiny *****, but that doesn't mean Vader is. The ONLY TIME he gets angry in the OT is when he is over his homeworld on the Tantive IV. The book "The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader" explains that he was angry because he was over Tatooine. But keep thinking that Vader sucks and is weak. I will like Vader and you will like Mace. That's fine. We are all friends here like you said.

It's a good thread and a good topic I proved what I said. I'm over it.
I'm just having fun.

He did feel his confused state that's why he told the lil boy
to WAIT IN THE COUNCILS' CHAMBERS until he returns .

I sense a great deal of confusion in you SkyWalker that has Clouded your Judgement.
I rest my case with Vader and Mace........NEXT!!!!!

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Look. Vader became much more in control after he got put in the suit and learned what being a Sith Lord is all about. I agree that anakin was a whiny *****, but that doesn't mean Vader is. The ONLY TIME he gets angry in the OT is when he is over his homeworld on the Tantive IV. The book "The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader" explains that he was angry because he was over Tatooine. But keep thinking that Vader sucks and is weak. I will like Vader and you will like Mace. That's fine. We are all friends here like you said.

I read that , Vader's OK but I have a problem with the way they told his story.
We're friends You made a good thread and a good topic.
I did like Vader at one point Luke,too but the stories the bio's .

Any way I might like them again someday.
Good points you made on those threads, Shadow you cool,man...
Keep fighting in these debates, it's fun to see what everybody likes
and defend to the end. it's fun no disrespect Intended.

Originally posted by Arhael
Wrong. Windu invented Vaapad because he couldn't change his state of mind on first place. He couldn't become pure avatar of light like Yoda.

And as I said you can't use Vaapad and draw on love for somebody simultaniously. You can't think about CoD3 and your girlfriend. You need to choose. If you think about CoD3, you might get pissed off at remembering how you couldn't complete a level. Likewise, if you think about girlfriend, you might remember how she wasn't letting you to play CoD3 and still get pissed off.

Could Kenobi predict that Maul will taunt him? No. He failed to maintain his focus and started losing.

Whatever Jedi think about during combat, it doesn't guaranty to change or improve their state of mind, it's unpredictable. Jacen experience deepest known Oneness with the Force and he knew that he would never be able to experience it again.


Your logic fails within confines of SW.

Because of flaw in the Old Order system Anain had to keep his relationship with Padme secret and, when he started seeing bad dreams with her, he couldn't even share his problem with anyone. And because of that Sidous could influence him. Sidious tried to convince him that Jedi betraid republic but Anakin wasn't convinced and reported to Order. In that moment, when Sidious was at Windu's mercy, Anakin was still in doubt. He needed guidance in that moment. And Windu instead of showing good example, tried to kill defenceless opponent.

Finding easy solution IS the path of the darkside. And this is perfect example why. If Windu didn't try to kill Sidious, Anakin wouldn't need to attack him and wouldn't turn to the darkside. And even if Sidious escaped or took over goverment later, there would still be thee powerful Jedi alive: Yoda, Windu and Anakin(not Vader) himself. Anakin would fulfil the prophecy without becoming Vader.

Luke's quote to Sidious Empire's End: "I won’t fall into your trap, Palpatine. Death is not the answer for you. You are my prisoner".

Luke had the same choice to strike down defenceless Jacen years later but that could turn his son to darkside, so he didn't do that despite Jacen being clear danger to republic and to everything Luke stood for.

Anakin was telling Windu not to kill Sidious, yet, Windu ignored him and failed to sence confusion of young Jedi because darkside was clouding his mind. Darkside lures to take easier choice. Windu took the easiest choice and you know the consequences.

OK Slow down Padawan!!!
Who cares what Anakin was saying Sidious needed to DIE!!!
End of Story.
Who cares about Luke and Jacen A SITH IS NEVER DEFENSELESS!!!!

There was NO EASY CHOICE!!!
Palpatine was the Sith Lord they were looking for!!!
He had control over the WHOLE republic!!!

Arresting him would solve nothing!!!
Anakin wanted to save him for one reason only: POWER!!!!
Forget Pade'me he almost choked her to death.
This Luke crap logic is getting real old

I proved you can change your state of mind,
right now I'm thinking kicking a$$ in AC3
writing my reply to this thread and eating a fish plate from Capt. D's .

Vaapad is Half light Half dark
I didn't say Mace wanted to change his State of Mind.
I SAID you can have a different SOM using it.
Examples Depa Sora Quinlan Vos.

You're using both Light and Dark Sides of the Force
Not just the Dark Side.
Example He loved Depa enough to NOT KILL her.
He tried with all his might to restrain himself from killing her.

Now tell me that ain't love?
You got to be Luke Sky Walker for these types of emotion,right?
Luke and crew are NOT logically correct or worthy to lead the new Jedi Order!!!

He went after Depa because He was the ONLY ONE who could bring her in
without any body getting killed. The emotion he felt?!

He couldn't use that as fuel for Vaapad?
Only Anakin and Luke,right?

Vaapad uses emotions!!!
They give Vaapad its Power!!!
When there is nothing around to draw power from you turn within
To that Mental Forge of all those emotions images like Anakin's

Images of the Sand people ,his life as a slave, his failures etc.
Mace,any body that wields Juyo or Vaapad does the same thing
The Only difference is Mastery of Control not the loss of it .

So you see if blinded by rage you can't change any thing
But if you are in Control & Focused then Padawan you can move Mountains!!!!
Vaapad doesn't use rage not full blown blind rage any way.

Everything with Form VII is about Control,Victory,and Skill.
You're Luke SkyWalker mumbo jumbo won't work with this thread.
So you're still wrong Padawan.

Mace's state of mind is always wanting to win
but his approach is very different,unpredictable and in sync with his mind set
Just because you CAN'T multitask mentally doesn't mean I can't....Padawan.

To put this thread to bed finally and in closing
You can change your state of mind
You can use love. It can make you do crazy things(Ask Anakin )
You saw what love did to him and why both Jedi and Sith abandon it for other emotions.
Read Path of the Jedi
Book of Sith
Hell , your own thread on Jedi attachments
Even better Mace's attachments to Depa, it almost got him killed.
I rest my case your SkyWalker logic is flawed It doesn't stand up to anything I said.
But only in your mind Padawan you're still the learner and I AM THE MASTER

Vaapad mastered you!!!!!

Originally posted by juyomaster34
OK Slow down Padawan!!!
Who cares what Anakin was saying Sidious needed to DIE!!!
End of Story.
Who cares about Luke and Jacen A SITH IS NEVER DEFENSELESS!!!!

There was NO EASY CHOICE!!!
Palpatine was the Sith Lord they were looking for!!!
He had control over the WHOLE republic!!!

Arresting him would solve nothing!!!
Anakin wanted to save him for one reason only: POWER!!!!
Forget Pade'me he almost choked her to death.
This Luke crap logic is getting real old

I proved you can change your state of mind,
right now I'm thinking kicking a$$ in AC3
writing my reply to this thread and eating a fish plate from Capt. D's .

Vaapad is Half light Half dark
I didn't say Mace wanted to change his State of Mind.
I SAID you can have a different SOM using it.
Examples Depa Sora Quinlan Vos.

You're using both Light and Dark Sides of the Force
Not just the Dark Side.
Example He loved Depa enough to NOT KILL her.
He tried with all his might to restrain himself from killing her.

Now tell me that ain't love?
You got to be Luke Sky Walker for these types of emotion,right?
Luke and crew are NOT logically correct or worthy to lead the new Jedi Order!!!

He went after Depa because He was the ONLY ONE who could bring her in
without any body getting killed. The emotion he felt?!

He couldn't use that as fuel for Vaapad?
Only Anakin and Luke,right?

Vaapad uses emotions!!!
They give Vaapad its Power!!!
When there is nothing around to draw power from you turn within
To that Mental Forge of all those emotions images like Anakin's

Images of the Sand people ,his life as a slave, his failures etc.
Mace,any body that wields Juyo or Vaapad does the same thing
The Only difference is Mastery of Control not the loss of it .

So you see if blinded by rage you can't change any thing
But if you are in Control & Focused then Padawan you can move Mountains!!!!
Vaapad doesn't use rage not full blown blind rage any way.

Everything with Form VII is about Control,Victory,and Skill.
You're Luke SkyWalker mumbo jumbo won't work with this thread.
So you're still wrong Padawan.

Mace's state of mind is always wanting to win
but his approach is very different,unpredictable and in sync with his mind set
Just because you CAN'T multitask mentally doesn't mean I can't....Padawan.

To put this thread to bed finally and in closing
You can change your state of mind
You can use love. It can make you do crazy things(Ask Anakin )
You saw what love did to him and why both Jedi and Sith abandon it for other emotions.
Read Path of the Jedi
Book of Sith
Hell , your own thread on Jedi attachments
Even better Mace's attachments to Depa, it almost got him killed.
I rest my case your SkyWalker logic is flawed It doesn't stand up to anything I said.
But only in your mind Padawan you're still the learner and I AM THE MASTER

Vaapad mastered you!!!!!





It's always funny to see you go off on someone O' mighty Vaapad master! I am a Makashi/Soresu/Djem So blend person. I will let you be the master of Vaapad/Juyo

LOL
Sadow your'e a funny guy you have most definitely earned my respect!!!
Arhael,all you guys!!!!! Your blend is respected!!!! and again sorry about the name mix up!!!!
lol too funny It was Darth Power who encouraged me to write more..... the mood was all mine.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
LOL
Sadow your'e a funny guy you have most definitely earned my respect!!!
Arhael,all you guys!!!!! Your blend is respected!!!! and again sorry about the name mix up!!!!
lol too funny It was Darth Power who encouraged me to write more..... the mood was all mine.

LOL true. At first I thought you hated me during our Vader debates!

Hate you? Man you made that debate the best one besides me and Arhael's.
I respect what people believe in and for standing up for themselves.
You gave me a good run and for that I respect you.

You and the others read my replies and got in there with me
Made me think and be a better debater!!!
Thank you guys!!!

They'll be talking about our debate for years!!!! LOL

Who cares what Anakin was saying Sidious needed to DIE!!!
End of Story.

There was NO EASY CHOICE!!!
Palpatine was the Sith Lord they were looking for!!!
He had control over the WHOLE republic!!!
Bullshit. There is always choice. And Windu made the easiest choice.


Arresting him would keep Windu alive. It would rise awareness of other Jedi, so even, if Order 66 was put in place, much less Jedi would die. And as I said Anakin wouldn't become Vader.


It is not Luke's crap, it theme of entire Star Wars.

Kenobi didn't kill Anakin. Vader later apprenticed Marek who turned to lightside. Marek had Vader at his mercy but didn't kill him and as result he became inspiration for the rebelion. When Vader was at Marek's clone mercy, Kota reasoned with him and said that killing Vader will not solve matters. Kota wasn't saying the bullshit you are saying despite Vader being biggest threat to rebelion movement. And again Luke refused to kill Vader. If anyone of them killed Vader, Sidious would just replace him with someone else. If Vader got killed by any of the mentioned characters and didn't get redeemed, Sidious would never die.

Also, Kenobi didn't kill Jarad Hett. From one side he became new threat in far future, however, it was him, who did killing blow to Abeloth. Without him Luke wouldn't kill her.

On the other hand Anakin had Dooku at his mercy, same situation as with Palpatine, he was too dangerous to live. Did killing him helped the matters? Not at all, it was another step closer to the darkside for Anakin and ultimately he just replaced Dooku.

Marek in darkside ending ended up replacing Vader and later turned Luke to darkside.

If Luke killed Vader, he would just replace him. Luke by killing Vader would fall to darkside as well.

Whichever way you look at it, killing defenceless opponent doesn't help. It is darkside choice. However, in every single case sparing life of defenceless opponent in long run resulted in greater good.


You proved nothing. Only gave wall of idiotic rant. State of mind is not about what emotions you decide to use, it is about how they affect you. Windu used Vaapad many times, however, he never was able to submerge with it so deeply before. And yes, Windu is no Luke and no Yoda, that's why he invented Vaapad to reach his top performance alternative way.


Bullshit and never happened.

"The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent.

And it was darkening.

Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

There was no Jedi restraint here.

Mace Windu was cutting loose.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways."

Nothing about how Anakin felt and how Windu felt himself suggests that there was
even smallest hint of lightside.


No, he couldn't use that to fuel Vaapad. And that's why he restrained from using it against her. Vaapad is about getting thrilled by fight, it has nothing to do with love and other emotions, stop making stuff up.

And you still don't get it. State of mind is not about what emotions you choose to use, it'a about how it affects you. I never said Windu can't love.


What not gonna work, is your Vaapad wank. At the end of the day Luke made right choice by dropping his weapon, if Windu did the same, Anakin wouldn't need to attack him.


From this point I conclude that you are hopeless. Keep wanking on Vaapad users. Oh wait they are old dead. ::

Always with YOU
THAT CANNOT BE DONE!!!!!!

Padawan you just proved me right.....AGAIN!!!
First the idiotic Skywalker comparisons then the meaningless logic!!!
BS? seems like I KO'ed some nerves and you want to be FAMOUS.

Ding,Ding Padawan class is in Session,
Read what state of mind is...AGIAN.
One more time, WHO GIVES A BANTHA'S A$$ about what you just said about Luke
And your misplaced logic.

I know who Luke is
I don't care for his era
I said I was through with this thread

I already explained this
Go BACK and READ!!!!
AND when you do
LEAVE THAT OVER RATED LOGIC OF YOURS OUT
it would do all of us a HUGE!!!! FAVOR.


You still don't get it
And YOU'RE HOPELESS IF YOU BELIEVE THAT SH*T
you just said.

Luke dropped his weapon because he was scarred !!!!
Who drops their light saber to the most Powerful Sith in his Over rated era
One dumb a$$ Bantha's a$$

What did he think was gonna happen?
Peace treaty?!
Oh over rated Luke you Win..BS

And what happened HE GOT FRIED,ELECTRICUTED!!!
Dumb A$$
A SITH IS NEVER DEFENSELESS
They only thing wanking is that POOR EXCUSE FOR LOGIC .

From any point or any thread WE ALL CAN SAY WE FIND YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE.....
retarded,stupid, ludicris,ignorant, and flat out BS.


It was his COMPASSION,Padawan
A MASTER of Vaapad would draw on his inner darkness and the darkness of the opponent
Focus it into a POSITIVE FORCE TO SERVE THE LIGHT,PADAWAN

TO BECOME A MASTER OF VAAPAD,the user HAD TO BE STRONG WILLED
AND BE ABLE TO RESIST THE PULL OF THE DARK SIDE,PADAWAN!!!

THEY HAD TO RELISH THE FIGHT AND ENJOY THE SATISFACTION OF WINNING
BUT AT THE SAME TIME THEY HAD TO HOLD ON TO THE LIGHT SIDE AND MAKE
SURE "THEY "CONTROLLED VAAPAD AND VAAPAD DIDN'T CONTROL THEM....PADAWAN.

(MULTI TASK) (WHICH YOU CAN'T DO)


The State of Mind is the key to the whole form!!!
His emotion was COMPASSION thus Fuel to Feed Vaapad,
he didn't WANT TO WIN,Padawan
He wanted to SAVE,Padawan.

You still gotta be Luke for that emotion,too, right?
Here's the Death Blow, YOU STILL PROVED NOTHING.
Your logic is one sided bub, and in this business
One sided don't cut it,

I've proved that if you ever fight any body with your state of mind,
YOU'LL LOSE,
OF course their're dead, Luke too if DADDY didn't save his over rated a$$.
From my Point,you still lack the logic you use,YOU KEEP WANKING WANNA BE
and maybe one day YOU'LL WIN A DEBATE. DAMN YOU THOUGHT YOU WON DIDN'T YOU?


TRUTH IS PADAWAN,.....BUB I WON.........THIS DEBATE LIKE EVERYTHING YOU JUST SH*TED AND YOUR LOGIC IS OVER!!!!! NEXT!!!!!!!

Kyle Katarn would have been a better example,padawan....
Kyle GAVE Jerec his light saber back so they could finish the duel,padawan....
Not throw it away,praying for a peace pipe and hang with the Ewoks,Padawan....

For the record he was destined to be Vader and Order 66 would have came with or without Vader
Palpatine would have came back from the dead and still gave the Order,Padawan.
You just mad that LIL Luke didn't get full credit for killing Palpatine or considered in the top 3
to kill or even HOLD A LIGHT SABER TO Palpatine .

What did this lil over rated moma's boy do?
Ah baby boy DROPPED HIS LIGHT SABER!!!!
UH OH PAPS IS GONNA GET IT NOW!!!!

BABY BOY, your FEEBLE SKILLS are NO MATCH FOR THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE!!!!
Poor Misguilded logic.....
You will pay for your lack of vision!!!!!
Now SkyWalker like that Poor excuse for a reply to attack a REAL MASTER
And that very poor and feeble excuse for even trying to Growl
when that bark was nothing but a purr.......


Now Skywalker...you will die.....
Wait for it,......Daddy comes in and saves that A$$ and Over ratedness begins.....
Now Player,Wait you ain't no player

Padawan,Luke can't beat Palpatine!!!!
Luke out of all the times Palpatine came back still couldn't beat
Or even Attempt to kill Palpatine. ....
When he TRIED to duel Palpatine he HAD HELP.

Now Padawan Mace didn't need help
Yoda didn't need help
Vader didn't need help
But your baby boy did EVERY TIME !!!!!!

Before you Debate a Master of Vaapad,learn all you can
read all you can
because your logic on this matter is WRONG,
Kyle Katarn should be the Grand Master of that Order not Luke
Kyle was a better example than that sorry Luke crap.
I know more about your over rated era than you....

Keep wankin'Luke I know you FEAR The Dark Side that's why Anakin /Vader will always TOP
YOU IN EVERYTHING!!!!!! ANAKIN NEVER THREW AWAY HIS LIGHT SABER
NO MATTER WHO HIS OPPONENT WAS !!!!!

NOW I'm DONE AND SO IS YOUR RIDICULOUS WANKING ABOUT LUKE AND ANY BODY
ELSE FROM HIS ERA!!!
HOW MANY ARMS DO YOU SEE?

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Kyle Katarn would have been a better example,padawan....
Kyle GAVE Jerec his light saber back so they could finish the duel,padawan....
Not throw it away,praying for a peace pipe and hang with the Ewoks,Padawan....

For the record he was destined to be Vader and Order 66 would have came with or without Vader
Palpatine would have came back from the dead and still gave the Order,Padawan.
You just mad that LIL Luke didn't get full credit for killing Palpatine or considered in the top 3
to kill or even HOLD A LIGHT SABER TO Palpatine .

What did this lil over rated moma's boy do?
Ah baby boy DROPPED HIS LIGHT SABER!!!!
UH OH PAPS IS GONNA GET IT NOW!!!!

BABY BOY, your FEEBLE SKILLS are NO MATCH FOR THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE!!!!
Poor Misguilded logic.....
You will pay for your lack of vision!!!!!
Now SkyWalker like that Poor excuse for a reply to attack a REAL MASTER
And that very poor and feeble excuse for even trying to Growl
when that bark was nothing but a purr.......


Now Skywalker...you will die.....
Wait for it,......Daddy comes in and saves that A$$ and Over ratedness begins.....
Now Player,Wait you ain't no player

Padawan,Luke can't beat Palpatine!!!!
Luke out of all the times Palpatine came back still couldn't beat
Or even Attempt to kill Palpatine. ....
When he TRIED to duel Palpatine he HAD HELP.

Now Padawan Mace didn't need help
Yoda didn't need help
Vader didn't need help
But your baby boy did EVERY TIME !!!!!!

Before you Debate a Master of Vaapad,learn all you can
read all you can
because your logic on this matter is WRONG,
Kyle Katarn should be the Grand Master of that Order not Luke
Kyle was a better example than that sorry Luke crap.
I know more about your over rated era than you....

Keep wankin'Luke I know you FEAR The Dark Side that's why Anakin /Vader will always TOP
YOU IN EVERYTHING!!!!!! ANAKIN NEVER THREW AWAY HIS LIGHT SABER
NO MATTER WHO HIS OPPONENT WAS !!!!!

NOW I'm DONE AND SO IS YOUR RIDICULOUS WANKING ABOUT LUKE AND ANY BODY
ELSE FROM HIS ERA!!!
HOW MANY ARMS DO YOU SEE?
Wow. Impressive! Most impressive! Lord Vader would be pleased with your ferosity! The Dark Side I sense in you... LOL Glad to have found such a clear Sith material!

LOL Some people just never learn!!
He wants to be famous so I made him look like a deer in head lights!!
I never said state of mind was an emotion,padawan.
It's an idea,mind set,an approach.

This guy hates being wrong when the TRUTH is in front of him!!
I sensed prey and a disturbance in the threads so I had to go hunting
When I'm wrong I'll admit it,but this dude?

Fact is I wasn't and he ended up being slaughterd by a sample of my furious word play,lol!!!

Originally posted by juyomaster34
LOL Some people just never learn!!
He wants to be famous so I made him look like a deer in head lights!!
I never said state of mind was an emotion,padawan.
It's an idea,mind set,an approach.

This guy hates being wrong when the TRUTH is in front of him!!
I sensed prey and a disturbance in the threads so I had to go hunting
When I'm wrong I'll admit it,but this dude?

Fact is I wasn't and he ended up being slaughterd by a sample of my furious word play,lol!!!
"You were weak when I found you, now your hatred has become your strength. at last, the Dark Side is your ally...."

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
The Dark Side I sense in you... LOL Glad to have found such a clear Sith material!
On forums it's called Butthurt.

Who's butt? I still won and proved you wrong how many times? Damn I lost count !!!
On this Forum,this is called Vaapad,...how many arms do you see? :

You proved nothing.
Your speculations are outright baseless. Luke dropping lightsaber because of being "scarred" was especially hilarious.

You felt need to turn peaciful discussion into aimless rant and personal attacks. You felt need to proclaim yourself winner god knows of what, when from the beginning I was just giving my interpretation as you gave yours. How can you take your opinions as facts, I am clueless.

You daring to call my logic one sided, when I backed up my opinion by many examples such as Kenobi sparing lives of Vader an Jared Hett. Marek refusing to strike down Vader and then Sidious. Starkiller refusing to strike down Vader. I can add to that many more examples. JK refused to strike down Vitiate and wanted to inprison him despite the fact that he was far more dangerous than even Sidious.
Aryn Laneer spared life of Malgus' girlfriend despite her trying to kill her and as result Malgus spared her life after defeating her.

Kenobi had more than one chance to go all out on Ventress but he always held back. And together with Anakin they disarmed her instead of killing. As the result she not only saved Kenobi later, she is on her way to be redeemed in final season.

If by your opinion all those characters are idiots, then it only reflects your bias and inadequacy.

In turn Anakin by killing defenceless opponent got closer to darkside. And Windu by attempting to kill defenceless opponent got himself killed as well as completed Anakin's fall to darkside.

You can't give a single example, where killing defenceless opponent would lead to positive outcome and proclaim yourself of winning, when my aim wasn't about winning at all. Your sence of competition is not needed here, for that you have sport and computer games.
So who's logic is one sided?

And your talk about state of mind is useless. Windu never got sub-merged into Vaapad so deeply before fighting Sidious. He couldn't achieve such state of mind whenever he wanted. Same way characters experience Oneness with the Force ones in a life time. But those, who experienced Oneness, made huge difference in history. What difference in history gave Vaapad? None. Two Jedi got consumed by darkness and third died of betrayal and was instrumental device to turn Anakin.

You failed as a debator.
You failed as a person.
You proved only your deluded stupidity.

This is another non fight... Windu with easy... so much ease that why was this thread even made?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is another non fight... Windu with easy... so much ease that why was this thread even made?

A "Non-Fight?" Really KT??

So the guy who almost stalemated TFUII Starkiller won't even put up a fight against Windu?? Really??

And Windu will just deflect all his Beastly Force Repulse/ Force Waves with ease?? Really??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
A "Non-Fight?" Really KT??

So the guy who almost stalemated TFUII Starkiller won't even put up a fight against Windu?? Really??

And Windu will just deflect all his Beastly Force Repulse/ Force Waves with ease?? Really??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
A "Non-Fight?" Really KT??

So the guy who almost stalemated TFUII Starkiller won't even put up a fight against Windu?? Really??

And Windu will just deflect all his Beastly Force Repulse/ Force Waves with ease?? Really??

You mean other than the fact that Windu has beaten better people than Vader and can use Vapaad for a clear victory.. YOu mean besides those basic and clear ponits?

Mace will definitely win if Vader just uses his sword and not the Force at all, like Sidious did.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Mace will definitely win if Vader just uses his sword and not the Force at all, like Sidious did.
But Vader won't just use his Lightsaber. He WILL use his, as Darth Power called it, "beastly" force powers. I don't think people give Vader credit for what he has done. He, as the Emperor's enforcer, completed the Great Jedi Purge. Mace's style, as I understand it, utilizes energy that is used against him, like lightning or force attacks, but I am not sure it applys to utilizing the force to enhance yourself, Like Vader is known to do.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
But Vader won't just use his Lightsaber. He WILL use his, as Darth Power called it, "beastly" force powers. I don't think people give Vader credit for what he has done. He, as the Emperor's enforcer, completed the Great Jedi Purge. Mace's style, as I understand it, utilizes energy that is used against him, like lightning or force attacks, but I am not sure it applys to utilizing the force to enhance yourself, Like Vader is known to do.

Tempest was being sarcastic pointing out that just because Mace beat Sidious the way he did in those circumstances does not mean he's guaranteed victory every time against any and every Sith Lord in any environment under any circumstance.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You mean other than the fact that Windu has beaten better people than Vader and can use Vapaad for a clear victory..

And what Mace did that easily?? In a non fight??

That fight went straight to Sabers because Sidious had to take out 3 other Jedi first. And yet despite that according to the novel and the script Mace almost lost due to just 1 Force push from Sidious.

So given that you really think he could fend off a continuous barrage of Force Waves from Vader easily??

Almost lost and losing isn't the same thing. Mace was surprised by the force push but he intercepted it and took out Sidious only a few moments later.

Mace is no slouch when it comes to force abilities and while he doesn't have the force potential of Vader I think he's experienced and skilled enough to withstand his force barrages until he can find an opening.

Originally posted by Ofi-Wan
Almost lost and losing isn't the same thing. Mace was surprised by the force push but he intercepted it and took out Sidious only a few moments later.

Mace is no slouch when it comes to force abilities and while he doesn't have the force potential of Vader I think he's experienced and skilled enough to withstand his force barrages until he can find an opening.
After attempting to push Windu, he sensed Anakin approaching and he knew he had to put on the persona of the "weak, unarmed opponent" because he was putting the same situaion in front of him like when Anakin was fightig Dooku. It was a mind game. I honestly think that if it was a straight up fight with no Anakin, Sidious would have won. Why wouldn't he just use Force Push to get Windu off of him and THEN blast lightning?

Originally posted by Ofi-Wan
Almost lost and losing isn't the same thing.

Yeah but that was just one force push. Imagine he kept his distance and using a barrage of continuous Force TK attacks like he was doing against Yoda.

Originally posted by Ofi-Wan
Mace was surprised by the force push but he intercepted it and took out Sidious only a few moments later.

Most Force pushes are by surprise. The opponent doesn't give a warning that he's about to use a Force push.

But if we look at say the Dooku vs Anakin fight in the CW series, it shows that Skywalker clearly can tank several force shots from Dooku.

Mace can't really say the same when against Sidious. And I'm betting Vader's TK is close to Sidious's.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
After attempting to push Windu, he sensed Anakin approaching and he knew he had to put on the persona of the "weak, unarmed opponent" because he was putting the same situaion in front of him like when Anakin was fightig Dooku. It was a mind game. I honestly think that if it was a straight up fight with no Anakin, Sidious would have won. Why wouldn't he just use Force Push to get Windu off of him and THEN blast lightning?

He wasn't faking that early on.

The big factor in their fight was it began with 3 other Jedi. Sidious didn't have the luxury of beginning his one on one fight against Windu with a Force TK Blast.

They were already ferociously fighting close up.

Actually, Vader has better TK feats to his name than does Sidious.