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The Phoenix Force has possessed Jean and goes to the Cancerverse to destroy the Many Angled Ones. This is the force going all out using the full scope of its power.

Can the Many Angled Ones stop the creator of all life in the Marvel universe from destroying their Cancerverse or do they get crippled and defeated just like when Death surprised them during the Necropsy ritual?

My money is on the Phoenix Force what with Dark Phoenix and White Phoenix of the Crown being so powerful, but the Many Angled Ones are no slouches either. What do you all think?

The many angled ones

The Phoenix returns to the MU as the Phoenix Engine...

PF. Until the MAO's are more than "scary stories".

Many Angled Ones wreck.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Many Angled Ones wreck. How do you know, Q?
What have you seen?

Even you always say that a weapon, powered by the MAO's, couldn't even kill Thanos.

Originally posted by Horrificus
How do you know, Q?
What have you seen?

Even you always say that a weapon, powered by the MAO's, couldn't even kill Thanos. I have seen the Galactus Engine who wasn't the biggest and baddest thing coming through from the Cancerverse.

Thanos was immune to death. Thanos also outsmarted them all. It's par for the course.

lol

Thor hurt the Phoenix recently.

The Many Angled Ones should take this. Especially considering Galactus and the Celestials were battling and struggling against mere pawns/footsoldiers of the invading force.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I have seen the Galactus Engine who wasn't the biggest and baddest thing coming through from the Cancerverse.

Thanos was immune to death. Thanos also outsmarted them all. It's par for the course. But, if the MAO"s were being described as larger, potentially more powerful than the abstracts of Cancerverse and 616, they should be able to trump Death and any machinations she might have had going on with Thanos.

If they were unable to override 616 Death's actions, why should we think their power is so overwhelming?

I still cling to the theory that Cancerverse inhabitants were not as powerful as 616.

Originally posted by Horrificus
But, if the MAO"s were being described as larger, potentially more powerful than the abstracts of Cancerverse and 616, they should be able to trump Death and any machinations she might have had going on with Thanos.

If they were unable to override 616 Death's actions, why should we think their power is so overwhelming?

I still cling to the theory that Cancerverse inhabitants were not as powerful as 616. You can't cling to that theory since the Galactus Engine was greater than a slew of Celestials and Galactus.

Thanos' mind is what brought down the Cancerverse.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You can't cling to that theory since the Galactus Engine was greater than a slew of Celestials and Galactus.

Thanos' mind is what brought down the Cancerverse. Oh, I beg to differ Mr. Q.

I happen to know, for a fact, that forum members are capable of clinging to all types of unpopular, illogical or incorrect theories.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Oh, I beg to differ Mr. Q.

I happen to know, for a fact, that forum members are capable of clinging to all types of unpopular, illogical or incorrect theories.
Question is Horri do you believe The combined might of the Celestials and Galactus can contain the Phoenix?

Interesting, surprised it hasn't been done before.

But it's one of those strange ones. On one hand the MAO were supposed to be even more powerful than what we saw. Yet they were taken down by 616 Death through her pawn Thanos. If they can't overcome the power of Death from another universe, where does that place them exactly?

Dark Phoenix level manifestations wouldn't do it, but the more powerful manifestations you would think could. Unless it was specifically Death's power that allowed her to win because it was a sort of opposite. Maybe life force vs life force doesn't work. Or maybe each would prove more powerful than the other fighting in their home universe.

Tough one, but I'll go with the more powerful Phoenix manifestations.

it was just plot device that death beat them, it wasnt directly either. she needed thanos.

The way I saw it was Life had so consumed this particular Marvel Universe in every crevasse that once Death was reintroduced.

Well everything shat itself. Win.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
it was just plot device that death beat them, it wasnt directly either. she needed thanos. Originally posted by the ninjak
The way I saw it was Life had so consumed this particular Marvel Universe in every crevasse that once Death was reintroduced.

Well everything shat itself. Win.
It was more than that, Death's AoE of Doom reached outside the Cancerverse and spread into 616 reality annihilating the Cancerverse forces in it.

There were two plot devices : the Exorcism rite that banished Death and whatever Thanos did to reintroduce Death back into the Cancerverse. Once she came back, it was game over.

Concerning this thread, I honestly think it's a tie or something. Isn't the PF some sort of Life abstract itself? Hell maybe it'd like becoming a "Phoenix Engine"?

Originally posted by zopzop
It was more than that, Death's AoE of Doom reached outside the Cancerverse and spread into 616 reality annihilating the Cancerverse forces in it.

There were two plot devices : the Exorcism rite that banished Death and whatever Thanos did to reintroduce Death back into the Cancerverse. Once she came back, it was game over.

Concerning this thread, I honestly think it's a tie or something. Isn't the PF some sort of Life abstract itself? Hell maybe it'd like becoming a "Phoenix Engine"?

Who do you think wins?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Who do you think wins?
IMHO, the Many Angled Ones. The PF has done nothing with itself so far. Like I said before, at BEST, it seems to be a Trans Tier character (which is sad but that's Marvel for you).

Originally posted by zopzop
IMHO, the Many Angled Ones. The PF has done nothing with itself so far. Like I said before, at BEST, it seems to be a Trans Tier character (which is sad but that's Marvel for you).

What did the MAO do? And Phoenix has had some good showings in Excalibur.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Oh, I beg to differ Mr. Q.

I happen to know, for a fact, that forum members are capable of clinging to all types of unpopular, illogical or incorrect theories. If you go by portrayal and what the Many Angled Ones were capable of then it's clear they are more powerful.

One of them was Shuma Gorath. The others were Gods along that vein minus any feats.

My final view of this match:

I change my mind. Even though I am not impressed with the MAO's, I feel they have more power at their command than PF.

I believe that the Galactus Engine was simply a weapon used by the MAO's, channeling their energy. And, although I was not impressed with the Galactus Engine, it still seemed to give the 616'ers more trouble than the Phoenix would give all of them.

Because I am a Shuma/Cthulhu fan, I am open to the assumption that somewhere out there, the MAO's are still potentially much more powerful than we have seen.

But...

They did not show it.

Within that story arc, there are 2 major occurrences that are the most telling of power.

The performance of the Galactus Engine and the Trump of 616 Death and Thanos.

I will leave you to decide what those 2 occurrences tell us.




But, for me, they lead me to consider 2 possibilities:

1.Uber-Powerful MAO's > PF
If they are the ultra powerful beings that should/could dwarf the 616'ers, then they did not "actively" take part in the invasion and it was possibly, just a side-note in their activities.

Meaning, they are laughing somewhere, and didn't even try. Yet.

This doesn't really help us in this match, because we still can't gauge properly since, as I have said before, the abstracts that were in the war-zone, were being attacked by numerous entities and weapons simultaneously as they strained to block entrance of the Galactus Engine.

or

2.Blah-Powerful MAO's are still > PF
The descriptions of size and power were greatly exaggerated, or, did not even matter when pitted against the 616'ers.

Their entire universe on the warpath was unable to do much more than put a scare into the 616. With a few casualties, of course. But, nothing that would show that there was a war between equal opponents.

And, of course, Death and Thanos, single-handedly, brought down the entire Cancerverse Invasion, stopping it short.

The problem with this feat, is that it would not have worked against the 616 abstracts that were assembled.

And, what does that tell you?

But, even in this case, the watered-down MAO's gave a better showing than PF would have.

And, if this scenario is true, the Galactus Engine would have to be the most powerful, (if mindless) "thing" that the Cancerverse had to offer. And, the MAO's were hiding somewhere dark and smelly.

In my humble opinion.

Originally posted by Horrificus
My final view of this match:

I change my mind. Even though I am not impressed with the MAO's, I feel they have more power at their command than PF.

I believe that the Galactus Engine was simply a weapon used by the MAO's, channeling their energy. And, although I was not impressed with the Galactus Engine, it still seemed to give the 616'ers more trouble than the Phoenix would give all of them.

Because I am a Shuma/Cthulhu fan, I am open to the assumption that somewhere out there, the MAO's are still potentially much more powerful than we have seen.

But...

They did not show it.

Within that story arc, there are 2 major occurrences that are the most telling of power.

The performance of the Galactus Engine and the Trump of 616 Death and Thanos.

I will leave you to decide what those 2 occurrences tell us.




But, for me, they lead me to consider 2 possibilities:

1.Uber-Powerful MAO's > PF
If they are the ultra powerful beings that should/could dwarf the 616'ers, then they did not "actively" take part in the invasion and it was possibly, just a side-note in their activities.

Meaning, they are laughing somewhere, and didn't even try. Yet.

This doesn't really help us in this match, because we still can't gauge properly since, as I have said before, the abstracts that were in the war-zone, were being attacked by numerous entities and weapons simultaneously as they strained to block entrance of the Galactus Engine.

or

2.Blah-Powerful MAO's are still > PF
The descriptions of size and power were greatly exaggerated, or, did not even matter when pitted against the 616'ers.

Their entire universe on the warpath was unable to do much more than put a scare into the 616. With a few casualties, of course. But, nothing that would show that there was a war between equal opponents.

And, of course, Death and Thanos, single-handedly, brought down the entire Cancerverse Invasion, stopping it short.

The problem with this feat, is that it would not have worked against the 616 abstracts that were assembled.

And, what does that tell you?

But, even in this case, the watered-down MAO's gave a better showing than PF would have.

And, if this scenario is true, the Galactus Engine would have to be the most powerful, (if mindless) "thing" that the Cancerverse had to offer. And, the MAO's were hiding somewhere dark and smelly.

In my humble opinion.

Except the Kree's detected far bigger and more powerful entities than the Galactus Engine coming through the Fault.

if this match is in the cancerverse (since we've never seen the MAO outside of the cancerverse) what is the PF going to do to entities who perpetuate life, while the PF relies on life to die and be reborn? The PF draws power from the life force/life essence that has *yet* to be born into the universe. In the Cancerverse, there is no "yet-to-be-born" because nothing dies. The PF would have no power there.

Originally posted by Horrificus

1.Uber-Powerful MAO's > PF
If they are the ultra powerful beings that should/could dwarf the 616'ers, then they did not "actively" take part in the invasion and it was possibly, just a side-note in their activities.

Meaning, they are laughing somewhere, and didn't even try. Yet.

This doesn't really help us in this match, because we still can't gauge properly since, as I have said before, the abstracts that were in the war-zone, were being attacked by numerous entities and weapons simultaneously as they strained to block entrance of the Galactus Engine.



Great post. I'm also a Lovecraft fan and it's obvious that the forces consuming the Cancerverse were similar creatures.

I imagine scenario 1 was the occurrence. The creatures pouring through the Fault were fodder yet they overwhelmed the Celestials and Galactus. The Galactus Engine was just a zombified battering ram.

But the actual Ancient Ones involved in the infestation of the Cancerverse were in their own realms. Hence CthonicMarvel channeling them during the Death ceremony. They already defeated all opposition in that particular universe. Including an Abstract being. Then comes another excellent response.

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
if this match is in the cancerverse (since we've never seen the MAO outside of the cancerverse) what is the PF going to do to entities who perpetuate life, while the PF relies on life to die and be reborn? The PF draws power from the life force/life essence that has *yet* to be born into the universe. In the Cancerverse, there is no "yet-to-be-born" because nothing dies. The PF would have no power there.

Pretty much. And Thor recently hurt the PF's tail. And Thor in this universe is an unkillable enemy along with everything else.

I just see them overwhelming the Phoenix and it having to escape or die. Only to be reborn elsewhere another day.

The MAO seems to work as universal entities that could replace the primary powers in the absence of abstracts. They don't really come off anything more than really powerful entities that are not quite as powerful as actual abstracts considering death being reintroduced to the cancerverse effectively seemed to cancel them out.

Against ole regular showings galactic destroying PF, the many angled ones might probably win but i very much doubt against the multiversal PF that was seen in Morrison's run.

I'm not sure we should call it that.

I mean being able to psychically mind phuck someone from 150 years away is impressive,
but "multiversal" would imply the PF can take out UniverseS simultaneously,
and that's never been the case.

The best showings the PF has,
under it's own power without any stipulation or external amp,
are in two "What if" issues. (back, ... back in the day)

There, in those two instances,
the PF destroyed all the contents within those alternate realities,
(planets/stars/galaxies etc including Jean)
but it never destroyed space-time (those alternate Eternitys)

Just sayin.

That aside, the recent showings are of the PF manifesting at its most powerful.

That host-less fire-bird avatar is as good as it gets,
and Thor damaged it, and said it could be defeated based on his battle with it,
on top of Odin's enchantments being hinted as possibly superseding the PF.

Also, look at how an alternate Reality PF + Jean get obliterated now a days:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/12204524_Reed_kills_alt_PF.jpg

Grant it it's an alternate Reed getting the job done, but hey, just sayin friends.

Thankfully alternate reality Phoenix Force feats don't count. Well....that awesome Reed feat was awesome. But that's Reed.

And as we stated Thor hurt a hostless PF birdform recently.

And recent feats tend to reflect a character. Even more reason why MAOs win this.

The Phoenix gets the tentacle treatment. Not pretty.

Ph'nglui Mglw'nafh Many Angled Ones R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!!

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm not sure we should call it that.

I mean being able to psychically mind phuck someone from 150 years away is impressive,
but "multiversal" would imply the PF can take out UniverseS simultaneously,
and that's never been the case.

The best showings the PF has,
under it's own power without any stipulation or external amp,
are in two "What if" issues. (back, ... back in the day)

There, in those two instances,
the PF destroyed all the contents within those alternate realities,
(planets/stars/galaxies etc including Jean)
but it never destroyed space-time (those alternate Eternitys)

Just sayin.

That aside, the recent showings are of the PF manifesting at its most powerful.

That host-less fire-bird avatar is as good as it gets,
and Thor damaged it, and said it could be defeated based on his battle with it,
on top of Odin's enchantments being hinted as possibly superseding the PF.

Also, look at how an alternate Reality PF + Jean get obliterated now a days:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/12204524_Reed_kills_alt_PF.jpg

Grant it it's an alternate Reed getting the job done, but hey, just sayin friends.

Hmm well that's fine and everything however I've always assumed multiversal = being able to operate in a multiversal scale and not =multiverse-instantaneous snuffing out threat. Anyway I'll consider "multiversal" open to interpretation as there really isn't any definitive classification for such.

The MAO took out an abstract.......... I think they win

Galactus Engine solos.

Heck, if one of the MAO's that Lord Mar-vell summoned was really Shuma-Gorath, Shuma solo's too.

Originally posted by ctsketch
The MAO took out an abstract.......... I think they win
What they did to Death was vague. They performed some ritual that banished Death or something from the universe (makes no sense).

As soon as Death was introduced again (makes no sense), she literally wiped out the entire Cancerverse universe, crippled ALL the Old Ones, AND annihilated the Cancerverse forces that had poured through the Fault and entered 616 reality and claimed two parsecs of space (that's a pretty HUGE area in 616 universe).
Originally posted by CortSether
Galactus Engine solos.

Heck, if one of the MAO's that Lord Mar-vell summoned was really Shuma-Gorath, Shuma solo's too.

Get back to me when he gets at least ONE win vs anyone worth mentioning.

Originally posted by zopzop

Get back to me when he gets at least ONE win vs anyone worth mentioning.

Get back to me when it takes some pathetic Shi'ar weaponry to shatter Shuma into pieces just like it did to the Phoenix Force. Better yet, get back to me when freakin' Thor is able to harm Shuma.

Originally posted by CortSether
Get back to me when it takes some pathetic Shi'ar weaponry to shatter Shuma into pieces just like it did to the Phoenix Force. Better yet, get back to me when freakin' Thor is able to harm Shuma.
Get back to me when Shuma FACES another God like Thor (on panel) or Shi'ar weaponry (and not primitive ape men who don't even have spears).

Originally posted by zopzop
Get back to me when Shuma FACES another God like Thor (on panel) or Shi'ar weaponry (and not primitive ape men who don't even have spears).



You're a real piece of work, you know that?

Originally posted by CortSether


You're a real piece of work, you know that?

I <3 you too. kisses

Originally posted by zopzop
Get back to me when Shuma FACES another God like Thor (on panel) or Shi'ar weaponry (and not primitive ape men who don't even have spears).

But he did face a god in Crom and guess what? He got bfred yet again.
Cort's gonna jump all over me for that one.

Originally posted by Sundipped
But he did face a god in Crom and guess what? He got bfred yet again.
Cort's gonna jump all over me for that one.

Shuma never battled Crom. His own IBB's were used against him.

Originally posted by CortSether
Shuma never battled Crom. His own IBB's were used against him.

It was a joke but the books came as a result of the people calling for Crom no?

Originally posted by zopzop
What they did to Death was vague. They performed some ritual that banished Death or something from the universe (makes no sense).

As soon as Death was introduced again (makes no sense), she literally wiped out the entire Cancerverse universe, crippled ALL the Old Ones, AND annihilated the Cancerverse forces that had poured through the Fault and entered 616 reality and claimed two parsecs of space (that's a pretty HUGE area in 616 universe).


Get back to me when he gets at least ONE win vs anyone worth mentioning.

I'm talking about the MAO taking out Aegis, not Death

The whole Cancerverse/Death arc is based on this:

"That is not dead which can eternal lie./
And with strange aeons even death may die."

From The Call of Cthulu and the Necronomicon.

Phoenix represents Life and Death (the entire life cycle), as it burns away and recreates/is reborn. I'm actually thinking it might be able to defeat the MAOs by acting as destroyer and bringing death to them.

So wait, the Phoenix Force is getting shown as weaker and weaker?

Yay.

Never did like how well Rachel Summers did against Galactus.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
The whole Cancerverse/Death arc is based on this:

"That is not dead which can eternal lie./
And with strange aeons even death may die."

From The Call of Cthulu and the Necronomicon.

Phoenix represents Life and Death (the entire life cycle), as it burns away and recreates/is reborn. I'm actually thinking it might be able to defeat the MAOs by acting as destroyer and bringing death to them.

The flaw I see in this reasoning is that it presupposes the Phoenix is able to impose death unilaterally. While it may embody the entire process...I'd argue that the PF is reliant on Death in order to fulfill its function. In other words, Death needs to be present in order for the PF to exist and fulfill its role; I don't see any evidence which enables the PF to act independently without the existence of said concept. If it were, then death and eternity would largely be redundant with the PF in terms of life.