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vs

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CIS is off for both characters. They both want to kill each other. Superman will use his powers intelligently, and will use his speed (etc.) to it's utmost advantage.

Alan

Superman.

Alan.

Alan's shields aren't automatic though are they? Wouldn't Superman kill him before he could react?

Originally posted by keiththegreat
Alan's shields aren't automatic though are they? Wouldn't Superman kill him before he could react?

He's literally made of Starheart energy in pre-DCnU. If he wills it, he would be a lot harder to take down than a baseline human.

Originally posted by Digi
He's literally made of Starheart energy in pre-DCnU. If he wills it, he would be a lot harder to take down than a baseline human.

Didn't Johns retcon that though?

He uses a ring now, where he didn't before.

In any event, being made of Starheart energy doesn't make him immune to punishment. He's been hurt, lots of times.

Originally posted by cdtm
Didn't Johns retcon that though?

He uses a ring now, where he didn't before.

That just dealt with how he channeled his power. He remained far younger than he had any right to be, essentially willing himself to look differently. After the big switch from power inside himself to the ring, they also started merging the two late in the JSA's run, calling him "Green Lantern, Sentinel of the Starheart" essentially merging his two titles. We never got a full description of what changed between the two versions or if it even constituted a downgrade. General forum consensus was that it did, but I never saw anything to back that up. And I also seem to remember it being referenced that he was made of Starheart energy after the switch to a ring.

I'm waiting for someone to say Superman beats Alan's head in with a 2-by-4 (before anyone replies....that's a joke).

Original Green >> Big Blue (even if he has a 2by4)

Alan taps dat ass.

Alan

The ring is just for symbolism. The energy Alan wields is all internal; he only crafted himself a power ring due to him rechristening himself Green Lantern again after ditching the Sentinel moniker.

If this is all out, I'll go for Superman.

Superman was the one who put up the best fight vs Parallax back in the 90's before Zero hour

but I have to say is pretty close IMO and no problem seeing Alan Scott winning too

I wonder why this two have not faced each other, does any one knows if they have faced ever?

Originally posted by biensalsa

I wonder why this two have not faced each other,


Probably because of the 'he's a top-level GL, only magic,' factor, which makes him a rather bad matchup for Superman.

alan all day. the feats he accomplished before the relaunch are above supermans.

alan

Originally posted by biensalsa
If this is all out, I'll go for Superman.

Originally posted by biensalsa
If this is all out, I'll go for Superman.

Superman was the one who put up the best fight vs Parallax back in the 90's before Zero hour

but I have to say is pretty close IMO and no problem seeing Alan Scott winning too

I wonder why this two have not faced each other, does any one knows if they have faced ever? Can you post scans of that ffight with parallax?

Superman wins.

Originally posted by Q99
Probably because of the 'he's a top-level GL, only magic,' factor, which makes him a rather bad matchup for Superman.

Nah!

DC has made Superman face Demons on their realm, so it does not have to do with being top level. at least not IMO.

It has to do with something else. They often face Hal with Alan and IIRC Hal fares pretty good against Alan.

People have matched up well with Alan on occasion. Kyle has held his own with him, Hal as well. And he was among the easily-dispatched fodder in the Parallax thing. He's not without "normal" or "average" showings.

But what has always separated him is his top showings. He went team-buster during the JSA/JLA Starheart crossover, and iirc Superman was among those against him. If he actually lets loose, this isn't a contest. It's Alan throwing the book of willpower at him and scolding him like a child.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Can you post scans of that ffight with parallax?

Sure, just to correct myself this was AFTER Zero hour.

Parallax took on the JLA alone and then Superman faces him alone.

The Parallax entity is still inside him when He is facing Superman

This is way before the last power up of OWAW


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I've never noticed how He counters GL's energy with his HV and I always thought "Superman why You didn't snap Parallax neck when You have the chance?"

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Originally posted by Digi
People have matched up well with Alan on occasion. Kyle has held his own with him, Hal as well. And he was among the easily-dispatched fodder in the Parallax thing. He's not without "normal" or "average" showings.

But what has always separated him is his top showings. He went team-buster during the JSA/JLA Starheart crossover, and iirc Superman was among those against him. If he actually lets loose, this isn't a contest. It's Alan throwing the book of willpower at him and scolding him like a child.

Tbh I haven't even started reading that series but doing some research I think it was Supergirl. Maybe I should get that whole series I think is already in TPB

Originally posted by biensalsa
Sure, just to correct myself this was AFTER Zero hour.

Parallax took on the JLA alone and then Superman faces him alone.

The Parallax entity is still inside him when He is facing Superman

This is way before the last power up of OWAW


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I've never noticed how He counters GL's energy with his HV and I always thought "Superman why You didn't snap Parallax neck when You have the chance?"

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Thanks. I always liked the Zero Hour/Parallax era.

Alan Scott wins, easily.

Nobody even really cares that this is the original elite Green Lantern... whose power is magic based...

... magic based.

C'mon now.

Originally posted by biensalsa
I always thought "Superman why You didn't snap Parallax neck when You have the chance?" they locked arms and it didn't look like hal was that much weaker

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Nobody even really cares that this is the original elite Green Lantern... whose power is magic based...

... magic based.

C'mon now.

Well like Pillar said, Superman could bring a 2x4 vs Allan.

What Digi mentioned, it seems Allan is very powerful at the end of the post crisis.

I have not read that series yet, but if He is that powerful, I don't have any problem seeing Allan winning since I mentioned since the beginning.

where's he getting the 2x4 from in the default battledome? it's like a sterile, featureless landscape

Originally posted by psycho gundam
they locked arms and it didn't look like hal was that much weaker

Even if He did, I don't think snapping Parallax neck will have meant much.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
where's he getting the 2x4 from in the default battledome? it's like a sterile, featureless landscape

Home Depot? I don't think the op mentioned anything about the arena and I'm kidding of course

I'll say it again:

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Superman isn't as vulnerable to magic as people think. It's more like he isn't INVULNERABLE to it. It's funny he's one of the only characters that people say is vulnerable to magic, when MANY other characters are also. I've seen magic affect the Silver Surfer, and what's funny is people don't constantly say he's vulnerable to magic, even though he is. Thor has been affected by magic too. Again, no one goes out of their way to say he's vulnerable to magic. Superman has magical resistance feats that put to shame many characters who people don't commonly say are vulnerable to magic.

Why is it if this thread was Alan Scott vs Thor would people not feel the need to say Thor is vulneraBle to magic?

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I'll say it again:



Why is it if this thread was Alan Scott vs Thor would people not feel the need to say Thor is vulneraBle to magic?

This isn't about a magic weakness/lack of invulnerability.

This is about Alan being boss. Also it's about Alan being more powerful.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I'll say it again:

Why is it if this thread was Alan Scott vs Thor would people not feel the need to say Thor is vulneraBle to magic? Because Thor has no stated vulnerability to magic, unlike Superman. Semantics and wordplay doesn't change that. Captain Marvel's magic lightning bolt will phuck Superman up more than Thor. That's a vulnerability, since they are peers in durability. It's not hard. Superman may shrug off magic sometimes, but frankly he's shrugged off kryptonite and red sun radiation just as many (if not more) times and they are obviously indisputable vulnerabilities.

And I'd be happy to battlezone anybody over this issue because it's a tired argument.

Anyway, to ignore it here would be like ignoring it in a Superman vs Silver Surfer thread... where Silver Surfer's Power Cosmic is actually pure magic. You people don't think that would make a real difference?

C'mon now.

Superman's magic vulnerability varies wildly depending on writer and situation. We all know he has good showings against it. But it's there in some form, and just as he has good showings, he has bad ones with magic as well. It might not be a "lulz stomp" factor in this fight, but it is indeed an advantage for Alan (a character most feel is already > Superman). If you feel it's close and you're looking to break a tie, this is as good a reason as any.

So to answer Pillar's question, people wouldn't say Thor is vulnerable to magic because he isn't.

And Thor also has a plot device energy absorbing weapon which gives him a huge boon against Lantern type enemies. I will say that Superman's showings against magic vary wildly from writer to writer, but it is consistently shown and stated that magic is something Superman is disadvantaged against, whether he's outright "weak" to it or is simply not invulnerable to it.

My point is Thor is not invulnerable to magic...there are numerous times where magic has wrecked Thor.

There are times where magic has wrecked the SS.

The Hulk can also be wasted by magic.

So can Superman, there's no question about it.

But I've seen Superman shrug off magic far more powerful than magic that has affected a guy like the Hulk, and no one claims Hulk is vulnerable to magic everytime he fights a magic user.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And Thor also has a plot device energy absorbing weapon which gives him a huge boon against Lantern type enemies. I will say that Superman's showings against magic vary wildly from writer to writer, but it is consistently shown and stated that magic is something Superman is disadvantaged against, whether he's outright "weak" to it or is simply not invulnerable to it.

I agree with everything you have said, except I will say it's more accurate to say he's not invulnerable to it, rather than weak to it.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
My point is Thor is not invulnerable to magic...there are numerous times where magic has wrecked Thor.

There are times where magic has wrecked the SS.

The Hulk can also be wasted by magic.

So can Superman, there's no question about it.

But I've seen Superman shrug off magic far more powerful than magic that has affected a guy like the Hulk, and no one claims Hulk is vulnerable to magic everytime he fights a magic user. The same magic would wreck Superman more. Thor, Surfer, Hulk never sh1t their proverbial pants when magic is involved. This vulnerability couldn't be more obvious. And the attempts to obfuscate it are downright awful.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The same magic would wreck Superman more. Thor, Surfer, Hulk never sh1t their proverbial pants when magic is involved. This vulnerability couldn't be more obvious. And the attempts to obfuscate it are downright awful.

Hasn't Thor been one-shot by magic before?

Originally posted by keiththegreat
Hasn't Thor been one-shot by magic before? This is a stupid (unintentional or not) question that doesn't address the clear danger magic presents to Superman that other forms of attacks do not.

Thor's been one shot by fists before. But when he sees them, he doesn't go wide-eyed and monologue about, "Oh no. Fists again! Despite the gifts my Asgardian nature gives me... fists always give me problems! Have to avoid them, fight around them somehow!"

N1gga, please.

lmao

Regardless, it's clear that however the writers choose to display Superman reacting against magic, he's consistently going to be portrayed as being less able to deal with it than his peers and allies.

Actually, I remember him dealing it with better than WW.

On a consistent basis?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
On a consistent basis?

Nothing is really consistent in comic books as everyone here knows, but off of the top of my head, Disciple's magick was so powerful that, even before he was made equal to the Elder Gods he worshiped, he devolved the Earth to where it was millions of years in the past in several aspects, and was able to devolve the JLA members, including those who DO have mystical resistance. When he tried to kill the JLA, Superman walked through his energy "beam"(wasn't a beam, it was way wider, but was continuous) and beat him.

I assumed Keith meant the Disciple incident.

Consistency, however, does exist in comics, and consistently magic is stated or shown to be something that Superman is adversely effected by to whatever degree the writer feels like. Superman having high end feats doesn't change that.

In any case, I'm not really using Superman's variable magic weakness/disadvantage against him as far as Alan is concerned, anyway. Whether it's magic, cosmic, or a combination (which it is in Alan's case), it's clear than Alan himself has the firepower to damage him.

Though, if we did take into the magical aspect, I think a sword manifested from pure Starheart energy could give Kal a grievous injury.

Some other magic resistance feats for Superman: When Shazam himself had come in to save Billy Batson after Eclipso-possessed Superman defeated Captain Marvel, Shazam hit him several times with energy blasts, and still couldn't knock-out or incapacitate Superman, so he had to bring in The Spectre's form(not bounded to a human soul at the time) to force Eclipso out. When Superman was in Blaze's realm, she failed to stop him with her energy blast, him falling into mystical lava(more than once), hitting him with a spell that encased him in stone(he still broke-out) or a spell that was turning him into a demon(his will simply overcame the spell). Osiris failed to kill Superman despite being a death god.

And yeah, I'll admit a good point was made that Superman has numerous feats resisting the effects of kryptonite as well, but he has far more against magic than people think, and like I said, almost every popular herald level hero is not "invulnerable" to magic either, whereas most are invulnerable to kryptonite. Magic is a powerful attack, and not many characters are completely immune to it, including mystical heroes like Thor.

My ONLY point is, people make TOO BIG a deal about magic against Superman, like it's an automatic win, when Superman has resisted magic from beings far more powerful than, Alan Scott, for example.

I've heard people claim Thor's hammer would affect Superman like a normal person being hit by a normal hammer...this would be the definition of a "magic weakness" in my view, but this is CLEARLY not the case for Superman, and there is a TON of evidence that that is not the case.

There is also the Scary monster instance in which IIRC Superman actually held better than all of the JLA members.

And He has outright opposed Spectre enemies and even the Spectre was impressed by it.

Magic lighting from Silver Banshe's clan

Civil war in hell

Batman powered by Magic

War of the Gods

Mordu's blast on the 31st century

He has come out fine out of those instances

Magic is a random force that affects mostly everyone

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
And yeah, I'll admit a good point was made that Superman has numerous feats resisting the effects of kryptonite as well, but he has far more against magic than people think So does Captain America. Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
My ONLY point is, people make TOO BIG a deal about magic against Superman, like it's an automatic win, when Superman has resisted magic from beings far more powerful than, Alan Scott, for example. Nobody is arguing that Superman is a one hitter quitter against magic. But there is plenty of evidence towards that. Far more than him being equally as resistant as Thor or Surfer. So to argue that he isn't any less vulnerable than they are is plain retarded.

Battlezone challenge is still open to anybody willing. This argument is stupid. Stupid and ignorant of all the vast evidence there is throughout Superman's appearances. You take away everything that is magical from Wonder Woman and turn all her esoteric abilities/traits/weapons into something more science based (but equally as powerful) and you're gonna believe she'd do just as well?

But I suppose an equally powerful magical Silver Surfer fares no better than a normal Silver Surfer either. And that's why this thread makes me facepalm. Take the premier Green Lantern in your mind (Sinestro, Hal, Kyle, Guy, whatever), pump him with even more self-sustaining power... and he'd be a damn good match for Superman.

Now turn everything about him into raw unbridled magic. That's Alan Scott. And you're gonna sit there and act like that wouldn't make a significant difference? This sh1ts sadder than Thanos stalemated Odin. Believe.

I don't think it's an auto-win for someone if they use magic on Superman. I do think that it becomes a very legitimate factor at higher levels such as Alan's.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

You take away everything that is magical from Wonder Woman and turn all her esoteric abilities/traits/weapons into something more science based (but equally as powerful) and you're gonna believe she'd do just as well?



I'm not saying that at all, but I am claiming that a character like Thor would have just as much trouble with her, as he is also vulnerable to magic. That's my argument. I'm not saying Superman isn't affected by it, but I am saying everyone else is too (for the most part). Hell, Superman has actually been doing better against magical lightning than Thor has recently (which I think is bullsh** by the way). Seeing how Thor did in age of heroes compared to Superman vs SHAZAM.

As the thunder god, I would like to see Thor immune to lightning (I really think he should be). But oh well.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I'm not saying that at all, but I am claiming that a character like Thor would have just as much trouble with her, as he is also vulnerable to magic. That's my argument. I'm not saying Superman isn't affected by it, but I am saying everyone else is too (for the most part). Hell, Superman has actually been doing better against magical lightning than Thor has recently (which I think is bullsh** by the way). Seeing how Thor did in age of heroes compared to Superman vs SHAZAM. He is not equally as vulnerable to magic as Superman. That's spectacularly retarded. You keep trying to feign this measured stance and it doesn't wash because the bottom-line is, no matter how many different ways you try to state it, you're acting like magic isn't a big deal to Superman.

That's wrong. That's unsupported. That's so easily disproven, I can't believe I am even having this discussion. Superman's varied high-end resistance feats to Kryptonite and red sun radiation far outshine any of his magic resistance feats. And none of us delude ourselves into thinking Superman deals with them as equally as anybody else. Somehow, there's been a persistent KMC forum myth that Superman has outgrown his magic vulnerability. Bullshit. Utter bullshit.

Alan Scott has angry rape sex with Superman's corpse.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He is not equally as vulnerable to magic as Superman. That's spectacularly retarded. You keep trying to feign this measured stance and it doesn't wash because the bottom-line is, no matter how many different ways you try to state it, you're acting like magic isn't a big deal to Superman.

That's wrong. That's unsupported. That's so easily disproven, I can't believe I am even having this discussion. Superman's varied high-end resistance feats to Kryptonite and red sun radiation far outshine any of his magic resistance feats. And none of us delude ourselves into thinking Superman deals with them as equally as anybody else. Somehow, there's been a persistent KMC forum myth that Superman has outgrown his magic vulnerability. Bullshit. Utter bullshit.

You can claim it's retarded all you want, but Superman has taken 6 or 7 magic lightning bolts from SKYFATHERS and not been KO'ed, while Thor has been one shot KO'ed by his own magic lightning (Twice that I know of). There's been several examples posted in this forum of Superman taking magic better than other members of the JLA, and several high end magic resistance feats posted in general. And no one is deluded into thinking Superman does better against kryptonite than other heroes, because most ARE INVULNERABLE to kryptonite, whereas most heroes AREN'T invulnerable to magic. The only thing you keep coming back with is saying magic is a big deal to Superman. I'm not arguing against that, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. I'm saying it's equally a big deal to other heroes that people don't generally think of as vulnerable to magic.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Alan Scott has angry rape sex with Superman's corpse.

It's not DCnU Alan Scott.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It's not DCnU Alan Scott. Ah.

Alan writes a sequel to Willpower, and drops it on Superman's domepiece.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
And no one is deluded into thinking Superman does better against kryptonite than other heroes, because most ARE INVULNERABLE to kryptonite, whereas most heroes AREN'T invulnerable to magic. The only thing you keep coming back with is saying magic is a big deal to Superman. I'm not arguing against that, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. I'm saying it's equally a big deal to other heroes that people don't generally think of as vulnerable to magic.

Well said.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
And no one is deluded into thinking Superman does better against kryptonite than other heroes, because most ARE INVULNERABLE to kryptonite, whereas most heroes AREN'T invulnerable to magic. The only thing you keep coming back with is saying magic is a big deal to Superman. I'm not arguing against that, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. I'm saying it's equally a big deal to other heroes that people don't generally think of as vulnerable to magic

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
The only thing you keep coming back with is saying magic is a big deal to Superman. I'm not arguing against that, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. I'm saying it's equally a big deal to other heroes that people don't generally think of as vulnerable to magic. That's phucking retarded and delusional. Thor doesn't wilt against hellfire like Superman has. Surfer doesn't need a Phantom Stranger's protective blessing to take on an Arion-level sorcerer like Loki. Superman gets filleted by mystically enchanted blades unlike Hulk who no sells Dragonfang. FFS, Wolverine and Ult. Cap bust out of vampirism using their healing factors and Superman doesn't.

Then again, I remember you arguing that Superman does a hell of a lot better than WWH does against Zeus. Why should I expect any better?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20MAGICK/th_Tangent-BREAKSMAGICANDSAVESHIMSELFFROMTELEPORT.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20MAGICK/th_Tangent-BREAKSMAGICANDSAVESHIMSELFFROMTELEPORT2.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20MAGICK/th_Tangent-BREAKSMAGICANDSAVESHIMSELFFROMTELEPORT3.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20MAGICK/th_jla_gk02pg13VEMAGIKANDREDSUN.jpg,
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Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Then again, I remember you arguing that Superman does a hell of a lot better than WWH does against Zeus. Why should I expect any better?

...And is this supposed to be some indictment on his credibility?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20MAGICK/th_Supermanv2023WILLVSMYSTICALLIGHTINING.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20MAGICK/th_Supermanv2023WILLVSMYSTICALLIGHTING2.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20MAGICK/th_Supermanv2023WILLVSMYSTICALLIGHTING3.jpg

Taking the Mc'dougal's axe clan in the arm and compare what the axe does to Blaze's horns

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20MAGICK/th_Supermanv2023MYSTICALAXEDOESNOTCHOPOFFARM.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20MAGICK/th_Legends_Of_The_Worlds_Finest_2_Of_3_47.jpg

There is more if anyone wants to see them.

I will actually buy more the argument of Allan just being more powerful than trying to pit this to a "magic argument"

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That's phucking retarded and delusional. Thor doesn't wilt against hellfire like Superman has. Surfer doesn't need a Phantom Stranger's protective blessing to take on an Arion-level sorcerer like Loki. Superman gets filleted by mystically enchanted blades unlike Hulk who no sells Dragonfang. FFS, Wolverine and Ult. Cap bust out of vampirism using their healing factors and Superman doesn't.

Then again, I remember you arguing that Superman does a hell of a lot better than WWH does against Zeus. Why should I expect any better?

Superman has a better track record against skyfathers than the Hulk, that's a simple fact that is easy to prove. Notice I never said Superman is beating Zeus.

And again, you keep pointing out examples of magic being effective against Superman, and I keep telling you I agree that it is effective against him. And being cut by a mystically enchanted blade...well, that's what a mystically enchanted blade is supposed to do. I highly doubt Hulk isn't getting cut by the same blade, considering we've seen him cut by bone, and less. There are TONS of examples of magic hurting Hulk. You bring up one example to the contrary, which isn't nearly as impressive as some of Superman's magic resistance feats presented here.

Again, comics are inconsistent by their very nature. You show an example of him doing better against magical cutting, I can show one with magical energy. Yes...He's no selled dragon fang, but just like Thor, he's been one-shot KO'ed by Thor's lightning, whereas, like I said, Superman has taken multiple blasts of magic lightning from skyfathers.

^ This isn't inconsistency. Superman is consistently been portrayed as having trouble with magic. When he fights through it, it comes with considerable fanfare and accolades. The same way when Captain America fights through it. It's an "oh shit!" moment, not a "meh, that's how it's supposed to work like Thor" moment. Which is why people like you collect and cling to those feats like they were nuggets of gold dripping with pussy juice. You wanna do a battlezone over this sh1t or not?

Because you're one of two things: (i) balls-to-the-wall ignorant of the numerous times Superman is implied, stated and shown to be vulnerable to magic; or (ii) just pretending like you don't know it to fake an argument.

The only way I'm going to spend the time gathering scans to either cure your utter ignorance or deal with your garbage is in a battlezone. The fact that you're actually insinuating that Superman's vulnerability as opposed to Thor's, Surfer's and Hulk's is some one off type of thing is insulting.

You're completely ass-backwards on this. Superman being notably not super vulnerable is the one off instance type of thing. Not the other way around. smh Originally posted by biensalsa
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20MAGICK/th_Supermanv2023WILLVSMYSTICALLIGHTINING.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20MAGICK/th_Supermanv2023WILLVSMYSTICALLIGHTING2.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20MAGICK/th_Supermanv2023WILLVSMYSTICALLIGHTING3.jpg

Taking the Mc'dougal's axe clan in the arm and compare what the axe does to Blaze's horns

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20MAGICK/th_Supermanv2023MYSTICALAXEDOESNOTCHOPOFFARM.jpg, http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/POWER%20DISPLAY%20VS%20MAGICK/th_Legends_Of_The_Worlds_Finest_2_Of_3_47.jpg

There is more if anyone wants to see them.

I will actually buy more the argument of Allan just being more powerful than trying to pit this to a "magic argument" The fact that the second scan literally has Superman stating, "Lightning's never hurt me like that before!" somehow is supposed to prove Superman isn't vulnerable to magic? smh Originally posted by CosmicComet
...And is this supposed to be some indictment on his credibility? You think Superman is going to take Zeus and his magic lightning (the second barrage which WWH virtually no-sold) or his magic lightning amped fists better than WWH? Are you unreal? Don't insult yourself.

Superman's magic weakness never stroke me as that big of a deal to be honest.

I'm not really sure what a battle zone is TBH. What's the difference between arguing it here or there?

It would basically be you versus ODG one-on-one with judges who will vote who made the best case at the end.

All you'd need to do is establish a concrete topic to debate/argue against (I'm assuming the validity of Superman's vulnerability to magic or something) and then pick judges whom you'd feel to be non-biased on the matter.

Judges. Set # of posts. Specific issue to be debated. No side issues or peanut gallery to deflect from that specific issue.

Okay, the only thing is, I'd feel like I'd be repeating a lot of what I just said here. But PM me if you want with some details of how you'd like to do it. With number of posts, judges, etc. I've never even visited the BZ area of the site, so I'll go there today and check it out.

Personally, I think the forum could use more battlezones, and not just when it comes to versus match ups, but topics such as this.

^ Topics like this can also detract from the actual vs thread. And I've been told that on more than one occasion. Which is another reason why a battlezone would be different from simply having the debate in here. Because the fact that this issue is starting to dominate this thread can be, and has been, a problem in and of itself. Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Okay, the only thing is, I'd feel like I'd be repeating a lot of what I just said here. But PM me if you want with some details of how you'd like to do it. With number of posts, judges, etc. I've never even visited the BZ area of the site, so I'll go there today and check it out. If that's all you have, then it's not worth my time. You've got a half dozen instances w/o context. I thought you'd have more. Which is why it's still an open challenge to anybody.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You think Superman is going to take Zeus and his magic lightning (the second barrage which WWH virtually no-sold) or his magic lightning amped fists better than WWH? Are you unreal? Don't insult yourself.

I remember Hulk being on the ground and smoldering from his lightning, while Zeus stood over him, although I only read it once a while ago. It also seemed Zeus was playing around with him.

While Pillar showed that Superman has taken 6 lightning bolts from skyfather level beings.

Also, as stated, Hulk was one-shot KO'ed by Thor's lightning.

Superman is so much faster that he'd be harded to hit than the Hulk. Also his durability is way better. I think Superman does better all around though he won't win either.

Originally posted by keiththegreat
I remember Hulk being on the ground and smoldering from his lightning, while Zeus stood over him, although I only read it once a while ago. It also seemed Zeus was playing around with him. Second, not the first shot from behind. Originally posted by keiththegreat
While Pillar showed that Superman has taken 6 lightning bolts from skyfather level beings.

Also, as stated, Hulk was one-shot KO'ed by Thor's lightning.

Superman is so much faster that he'd be harded to hit than the Hulk. Also his durability is way better. I think Superman does better all around though he won't win either. Captain Marvel was edging Superman out in straight H2H. And, no, I'm not talking about when Billy sucker punched him. And we're talking about Zeus. Not some high herald who receives a portion of Zeus' power on loan. Somehow you think an actual skyfather with his magic lightning raining about and amping his fists would find Superman resisting him? smh

And, no, Hulk has never been one-shotted by Thor's lightning. Another stupid forum myth.

Keep in mind, when Superman has fought skyfathers, they usually don't intentionally handicap themselves either, like Zeus did with the Hulk. You can claim all you want that Hulk would do better than Superman against Zeus, but the fact of the matter is, Zeus's magic did hurt him. Hulk was NOT invulnerable to Zeus's magic, which was my point all along.

But again, I can point out an instance of Hulk being affected by magic for every instance of Superman being affected by it. Like Thor one-shotting Hulk with magic lightning. Dr. Strange has magicked Hulk a lot over the years, particularly while they were Defenders, but also that time Stephen banished Hulk to the place of floating rocks. In WWH, before Hulk broke Strange's hands, he said he could snuff out Hulk's mortal flame with the merest twitch of his finger.

I don't mean to pick on the Hulk here, but it was one example someone else brought up. And I guarantee if this was an "Alan Scott vs Hulk" thread, no one would claim, "Hulk is vulnerable to magic, so Alan Scott wins."

You know what's the most baffling thing about this debate? The fact that you guys can't seem to debate rationally about a friggin' magic weakness (or lack thereof). The next person to trot out the words 'retarded, idiotic' or their like gets a warning.

....

Realistically, there's a fair number of instances of Superman overcoming or no-selling magic, and a fair number of showings where a magic weakness is specifically referenced. But the fact that it exists in some capacity suggests that magic wouldn't be a non-factor in this fight....probably just a very small one. Is that statement so hard to get behind?

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Ah.

Alan writes a sequel to Willpower, and drops it on Superman's domepiece.

Hey, what's with the "you guys"? I haven't said "retarded", "idiotic", or insulted him or his position once.

Originally posted by Digi
But the fact that it exists in some capacity suggests that magic wouldn't be a non-factor in this fight....probably just a very small one. Is that statement so hard to get behind? Absolutely. And the battlezone challenge is open to anybody. It is not, and never has been, a small factor. I find that position completely contradictory of the clear and vast history of post-CrisisOriginally posted by PillarofOsiris
Keep in mind, when Superman has fought skyfathers, they usually don't intentionally handicap themselves either, like Zeus did with the Hulk. You can claim all you want that Hulk would do better than Superman against Zeus, but the fact of the matter is, Zeus's magic did hurt him. Hulk was NOT invulnerable to Zeus's magic, which was my point all along.

But again, I can point out an instance of Hulk being affected by magic for every instance of Superman being affected by it. Like Thor one-shotting Hulk with magic lightning. Dr. Strange has magicked Hulk a lot over the years, particularly while they were Defenders, but also that time Stephen banished Hulk to the place of floating rocks. In WWH, before Hulk broke Strange's hands, he said he could snuff out Hulk's mortal flame with the merest twitch of his finger. This is not an issue of you finding an instance of someone else being hurt by magic. Other people have been hurt by fire. That doesn't diminish J'onn's repeated weakness to it, even though he has had a number of high feats resisting it (and at one point, was supposed to have overcome it explicitly).

Other people being affected by magic does not diminish Superman's outright punctuated vulnerability to it. Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I don't mean to pick on the Hulk here, but it was one example someone else brought up. And I guarantee if this was an "Alan Scott vs Hulk" thread, no one would claim, "Hulk is vulnerable to magic, so Alan Scott wins." Because Hulk isn't vulnerable to magic like Superman is. smfh

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
A simple human schlub can give Superman fits with magic.

Kind of like Amadeus Cho or Diablo?


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Other people have been hurt by fire. That doesn't diminish J'onn's repeated weakness to it, even though he has had a number of high feats resisting it (and at one point, was supposed to have overcome it explicitly).

If someone is hurt by fire, that person is vulnerable to fire. And yes, you're correct, it doesn't change the fact that MMH is also vulnerable to it (much like I said Superman IS STILL VULNERABLE TO IT).

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because Hulk isn't vulnerable to magic like Superman is. smfh

This is invulnerability to magic:



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/104502/1945188-superboy_prime_mordru_cr.jpg

That's not what the Hulk has. Or Thor.

^ I never said Hulk or Thor was invulnerable to magic. There are degrees of vulnerability to magic that range from being one-shotted like a little b1tch whenever magic comes in your proximity ---> being particularly weak to it ---> faring no better or worse than your peers ---> being particularly resistant to most magic ---> virtually invulnerable to magic.

And I couldn't have decontructed the false dichotomy underlyng your arguments here any better than you just unintentionally did.

Don't even try to half-step out of your position. You're not having it both ways, by "accepting" Superman is vulnerable to magic... but "not really, he isn't" and arguing that he takes it just as well as his peers. You already cemented your stance numerous times as being the latter. And your wordplay isn't softening your stance one bit. Superman doesn't tank magic just as well as Thor, Surfer, Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, Hulk, etc. And that punctuated vulnerability can exist whether or not Thor, Surfer, Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman or Hulk are invulnerable (which nobody has ever argued).

Tying your straw-man into semantics to cover up your false dichotomy isn't remedying just how much your stance ignores Superman comics.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I never said Hulk or Thor was invulnerable to magic. There are degrees of vulnerability to magic that range from being one-shotted like a little b1tch whenever magic comes in your proximity ---> being particularly weak to it ---> faring no better or worse than your peers ---> being particularly resistant to most magic ---> virtually invulnerable to magic.

And I couldn't have decontructed the false dichotomy underlyng your arguments here and better than you just unintentionally did.

Don't even try to half-step out of your position. You're not having it both ways, by "accepting" Superman is vulnerable to magic... but "not really, he isn't" and arguing that he takes it just as well as his peers. You already cemented your stance numerous times as being the latter. And your wordplay isn't softening your stance one bit. Superman doesn't tank magic just as well as Thor, Surfer, Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, Hulk, etc. And that punctuated vulnerability can exist whether or not Thor, Surfer, Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman or Hulk are invulnerable (which nobody has ever argued).

Tying your straw-man into semantics to cover up your false dichotomy isn't remedying just how much your stance ignores Superman comics.

Actually, my argument hasn't really changed since page 3, when this argument began:

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I'm not saying Superman isn't affected by it, but I am saying everyone else is too (for the most part).

But if it makes you feel better to think I'm flip-flopping that's fine too.

Just because I show examples of Superman resisting magic, doesn't mean I think he's completely invulnerable to it. It's like saying Superman is completely immune to punches from me showing someone breaking their hand punching him.

And you can keep SAYING Thor can tank magic better than Superman all you want, I've yet to see any evidence of it, when I've shown several instances of Superman weathering similar attacks, from higher powered beings better than Thor has.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Actually, my argument hasn't really changed since page 3, when this argument began:

But if it makes you feel better to think I'm flip-flopping that's fine too. You're not flip-flopping. You've still got the same baseless position as you've always had. Superman dealing with magic is just like everybody else dealing with magic. I said that, in no uncertain term several times. Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Just because I show examples of Superman resisting magic, doesn't mean I think he's completely invulnerable to it. It's like saying Superman is completely immune to punches from me showing someone breaking their hand punching him.

And you can keep SAYING Thor can tank magic better than Superman all you want, I've yet to see any evidence of it, when I've shown several instances of Superman weathering similar attacks, from higher powered beings better than Thor has. Enough with the false dichotomy. I never accused you of arguing that Superman was completely invulnerable to magic. You either can't comprehend that there are degrees of vulnerability, or you're still trying to feign a softening of your position to deflect from just how absurd your position is. But like I said, you're not fooling anybody with your semantics. Your position is as bad and as oblivious to the wealth of evidence there is as I've accused it.

In the meantime, let me not assume that you actually comprehend that there are degrees of vulnerability. Let me not assume that you're just trolling at this point harping on with the same false absolute garbage to deflect from your cracking position. So let me pander to you: MMH's serious vulnerability to fire is worse than Namor's particular vulnerability to fire is worse than Hulk's resistance to fire is worse than Surfer's strong resistance to fire is worse than Surtur's virtual invulnerability to fire.

Just because anybody with a transparent agenda can cherry-pick feats of MMH and Namor and Hulk and Surfer resisting fire in varying degrees, sometimes better or worse than each other, doesn't change the clear depiction of the levels of vulnerability.

You ignoring (and tactlessly dismissing) the several examples I've already listed off the top of my head that illustrate Superman's vulnerability to magic on pages prior doesn't arm you with the right to demand more proof.

This issue doesn't deserve long debate. Superman has a long, rich history of being vulnerable to magic. And I'm only going to stomp this issue in a controlled setting (aka battlezone). In the meantime, I'm just deconstructing your graceless arguments and logical fallacies. If the best you've got is "Hulk isn't like Superman Prime!!!!111 Therefore, you're wrong!!!11" what exactly do you think you have earned here other than my casual contempt?

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Hey, what's with the "you guys"? I haven't said "retarded", "idiotic", or insulted him or his position once.

Then you have nothing to worry about.

srug

If Alan struck Superman with a Starheart manifested sword ala Kingdom Come style, that would probably mess him up.

In all the comics I have Magic is sometimes mentioned as a "weakness" and then right at the very next panel Superman is fine.

The Captain Marvel where he say "CM has the advantage because of his magic" proves this. As everybody knows Superman won the fight.

And what was mentioned of Superman never feeling magical lighting like that before it proves just that He never felt lighting like that before, that's it and nothing else.

If Superman were WEAK to magic, then that Thunder should have killed him as it will kill a normal human, but it did not.

Superman is not weak to magic, he is vulnerable to it as almost everybody is, with it's degrees.

Magic is not a big factor in here. IMO, Evidence is there and plenty of it.

It's a significant factor. Tbh, I don't see how it can be viewed otherwise.

The whole magic thing is kind of an ancillary point. Alan wins even if his magic does nothing extra (though I think it would).

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It's a significant factor. Tbh, I don't see how it can be viewed otherwise.

Because there is plenty of evidence showing that magic does not guarantee a victory over Superman.

I can post more if you wish

Originally posted by Digi
The whole magic thing is kind of an ancillary point. Alan wins even if his magic does nothing extra (though I think it would).

True. But Alan's not just "magic" anyway. The Starheart is one of the more potent sources of mystical energy in the DCU.

If Alan retained his power level and his power was described as just being Oan based with no magic element, I'd still think he'd edge out Superman.

Originally posted by Digi
The whole magic thing is kind of an ancillary point. Alan wins even if his magic does nothing extra (though I think it would).

This will be more understandable.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Because there is plenty of evidence showing that magic does not guarantee a victory over Superman.

I can post more if you wish

Of course magic in of itself doesn't guarantee victory. But that doesn't mean magic is inconsequential to Superman.

And it certainly doesn't mean the Starheart's mystical properties wouldn't be a significant factor, either.

In this specific case, the source of Alan's power and its potency is a rather significant factor to consider in this fight.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Of course magic in of itself doesn't guarantee victory. But that doesn't mean magic is inconsequential to Superman.

And it certainly doesn't mean the Starheart's mystical properties wouldn't be a significant factor, either.

In this specific case, the source of Alan's power and its potency is a rather significant factor to consider in this fight.

I agree, I will be more worried about his overall power level rather than being derived from magic.

But I still need to see the last issues of brightest day and see how powerful he became at the end of the post crisis.

And also take into account what are the limits of a going all out Allan Scott vs the limits of a going all out Superman.

Do you believe Allan will have fared better vs Post Zero hour Parallax?

Originally posted by biensalsa
I agree, I will rather be more worried about his overall power level than being derived from magic.

But I still need to see the last issues of brightest day and see how powerful he became at the end of the post crisis.

And also take into account what are the limits of a going all out Allan Scott vs the limits of a going all out Superman.

Ultimately, before the reboot, Alan had obtained and later tamed an even larger portion of the Starheart than he had previously. During the JLA/JSA crossover "The Dark Things", Alan was a definitive team wrecker, taking on the teams using constructs while not even entirely focused on them specifically (Alan himself was sitting on his throne interrogating Dr. Fate and Faust). He was keeping the Emerald City on the Moon, a focal point and gathering place of magic and mystical creatures intact through sheer force of will, and even then wasn't anywhere close to keeping 100% of his focus on the City.

Then the shitty Scythe JSA arc happened and Alan got "crippled".

Well, with the OP saying they are going all out, and CIS is off, I don't think Alan has an answer for an immediate speed blitz.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Do you believe Allan will have fared better vs Post Zero hour Parallax?

I do.

Pillar's initial point is actually sound, he just overstates it somewhat. Superman is vulnerable to magic, it just seems like it's more of a glaring vulnerability because so much else can't hurt him.

As far as the thread goes, yes, Alan's magic will make a victory a little easier, but it's far from being an "i win" button.

Alan is a glass canon, if this goes h2h which it would go rather quickly, its over for him. Anyway split IMO, superman is vulnerable to magic and everyone in comics is vulnerable to punches. Alan likely has no counter for Kal's speed, a possesed Jay beat the shit out of him. Oh and superman has outperformed alan against an Ion fueled Alex nero IIRC. For superman's magic resistance

Physically restrains blaze and tanks a magical blast that tore her to pieces

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_AOS494PHYSICALLYRESTRAINSALORDOFHELL.jpg

The best thing about this, his powers were being sapped by that magical dimension

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_Supermanv2071-17.jpg

Originally posted by Cogito
This isn't about a magic weakness/lack of invulnerability.

This is about Alan being boss. Also it's about Alan being more powerful.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It's a significant factor. Tbh, I don't see how it can be viewed otherwise. Agreed.

Originally posted by Cogito
Superman is THE boss.

Originally posted by abhilegend
everyone in comics is vulnerable to punches.

I still go with Alan, especailly since he got a big push before the reboot.

Originally posted by biensalsa
It greatly depends on the level of power behind those punches.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman is THE boss.

Superman's Tony Danza?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And, no, Hulk has never been one-shotted by Thor's lightning. Another stupid forum myth.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Thor%20VS%20Hulk/HulkANN2001_19a.jpg

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Second, not the first shot from behind. Captain Marvel was edging Superman out in straight H2H. And, no, I'm not talking about when Billy sucker punched him. And we're talking about Zeus. Not some high herald who receives a portion of Zeus' power on loan. Somehow you think an actual skyfather with his magic lightning raining about and amping his fists would find Superman resisting him? smh

And, no, Hulk has never been one-shotted by Thor's lightning. Another stupid forum myth.

Where has Captain Marvel edged-out Superman in straight hand-to-hand without sucker-punching? Are you talking about SUPERMAN/BATMAN #4(I think)? If so, that was a statement that magick gave Captain Marvel the edge "toe-to-toe," but that's not what we actually SEE, is it? To top it off, Superman was in less than peak condition due to Kryptonite, numerous fights and partial solar drain.

Originally posted by Delta1938
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Thor%20VS%20Hulk/HulkANN2001_19a.jpg



Thor didn't even use his hammer to summon that lightning either.

Originally posted by biensalsa
In all the comics I have Magic is sometimes mentioned as a "weakness" and then right at the very next panel Superman is fine.

The Captain Marvel where he say "CM has the advantage because of his magic" proves this. As everybody knows Superman won the fight.

And what was mentioned of Superman never feeling magical lighting like that before it proves just that He never felt lighting like that before, that's it and nothing else.

If Superman were WEAK to magic, then that Thunder should have killed him as it will kill a normal human, but it did not.

Superman is not weak to magic, he is vulnerable to it as almost everybody is, with it's degrees.

Magic is not a big factor in here. IMO, Evidence is there and plenty of it. Superman did not win that initial H2H fight in Superman/Batman. Superman's cuts, bruises and stark admission evince that.

Superman being weak to magic doesn't necessitate that he's as weak as a normal defenseless human being to it. That I've had to address this blatant false dichotomy multiple times only reveals how shallow of a counter-argument there actually is here and the paucity of evidence being relied on. Acting like Superman's weakness to magic is an all or nothing affair doesn't disprove that he is weaker to magic than his peers.

Magic is a significant factor. It has been in almost every single instance where Superman confronts magic. That is the plain, clear interpretation that has been spoonfed for decades of Superman comics for virtually all of his incarnations from the oldest to the newest. Acting otherwise is convenient pandering and bonethrowing at its best. At its worse, its blundering incompetence. The comics cannot be clearer. Originally posted by Delta1938
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Thor%20VS%20Hulk/HulkANN2001_19a.jpg

Try posting the previous pages where Thor is fighting Hulk. That lightning bolt was not the one thing that Thor hit Hulk with during that fight. Accordingly, it was not a one shot, it was the last shot. This forum myth of Thor one-shotting Hulk with lightning is as ignorant as the forum myth that Superman isn't anymore weak to magic than anyone else. Originally posted by Delta1938
Where has Captain Marvel edged-out Superman in straight hand-to-hand without sucker-punching? Are you talking about SUPERMAN/BATMAN #4(I think)? If so, that was a statement that magick gave Captain Marvel the edge "toe-to-toe," but that's not what we actually SEE, is it? To top it off, Superman was in less than peak condition due to Kryptonite, numerous fights and partial solar drain. How you ignore Superman's cut up face (and Billy's lack of) just as he makes that clear statement is beyond me. Reread the comic and don't waste my time. That you'd argue against me is one thing, that you'd argue against Superman's own statements and fights is something wholly different.

the page itself even has hulk say he's "not finished fighting Long-hair", pretty much idiot proofing (unsuccessfully) the out of context scan.

Now cuts and bruises determine that who wins a fight! Magic affects superman but his durability is so high that it seems to be on the same degree as everybody else.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
the page itself even has hulk say he's "not finished fighting Long-hair", pretty much idiot proofing (unsuccessfully) the out of context scan. I know the idea that a ko attack which was preceded by other attacks suddenly becomes a oneshot is just deliberately being deceitful.

It's actually complicated. Magic will affect Superman greater than HIS EQUAL in durability. But mostly Superman is already more durable than many of his peers. Thus magic affecting both him and someone with lower durability can possibly result in the similar damage.

Like the wise Digi said, magic should only be brought up if the fight is near even anyway. Then the edge should go to the magic user. But if Superman already wins a solid majority over someone then magic may not sway the fact that Superman wins a slight majority or at least earns a split.

I'm not familiar with Alan's top feats. So with respect and kindness may someone tell me of his best combat speed and reflex feats or feats relevant to combat. And also tell me of his top durability feats as well.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman did not win that initial H2H fight in Superman/Batman. Superman's cuts, bruises and stark admission evince that.

Superman being weak to magic doesn't necessitate that he's as weak as a normal defenseless human being to it. That I've had to address this blatant false dichotomy multiple times only reveals how shallow of a counter-argument there actually is here and the paucity of evidence being relied on. Acting like Superman's weakness to magic is an all or nothing affair doesn't disprove that he is weaker to magic than his peers.

Magic is a significant factor. It has been in almost every single instance where Superman confronts magic. That is the plain, clear interpretation that has been spoonfed for decades of Superman comics for virtually all of his incarnations from the oldest to the newest. Acting otherwise is convenient pandering and bonethrowing at its best. At its worse, its blundering incompetence. The comics cannot be clearer.

I read all that but all I saw was this:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Waaaaahhh!!!! I don't like Superman's showings vs magic because they are stupid

Plain and simple

^ Irony. Because this is quite fitting: Originally posted by biensalsa
Waaaaahhh!!!! I don't like Superman's showings vs magic because they are stupid You don't like that Superman is vulnerable to magic then deal with it. Stop pretending that he isn't. It's tired and it's sad.

But by all means, keep shoveling the sh1tty false dichotomy as the frequency you've offered it has made clear it's the best argument you've all got. In which case, so tired. So sad.

ODG's point seems pretty clear to me.

Magic isn't an auto-win against Superman, but it is a significant factor, especially when dealing with the level of magic power Alan wields.

I really don't see how anyone can deny that or claim that it won't be a significant factor in this fight. Alan's not some random Joe Schmoe with a magic wand or something simple like that. The source of his power is literally the combined raw and chaotic magical energy the Guardians collected and sealed away eons ago and likely one of the most potent source of mystical energy in the DCU.

How something like the Starheart or its potency isn't a significant factor in this fight is beyond me, tbh, unless of course this has gone off topic and the conversation has turned into Superman vs. magic in general.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Irony. Because this is quite fitting: You don't like that Superman is vulnerable to magic then deal with it. Stop pretending that he isn't. It's tired and it's sad.

But by all means, keep shoveling the sh1tty false dichotomy as the frequency you've offered it has made clear it's the best argument you've all got. In which case, so tired. So sad.

Vulnerable as many comic book characters, and We return to the original point.

No one ever mentions magic vulnerability when the thread involves other character than Superman.

The evidence has been shown to you, at this point you are clearly dismissing the evidence.

You want more evidence? Nah, never mind, you are gonna start crying again.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank


ODG's point seems pretty clear to me.

Magic isn't an auto-win against Superman, but it is a significant factor, especially when dealing with the level of magic power Alan wields.

I really don't see how anyone can deny that or claim that it won't be a significant factor in this fight. Alan's not some random Joe Schmoe with a magic wand or something simple like that. The source of his power is literally the combined raw and chaotic magical energy the Guardians collected and sealed away eons ago and likely one of the most potent source of mystical energy in the DCU.

How something like the Starheart or its potency isn't a significant factor in this fight is beyond me, tbh, unless of course this has gone off topic and the conversation has turned into Superman vs. magic in general.

I already mentioned that I have to see Alan Scott at the end of the post crisis.

I said it makes more sense to chalk a win to Alan due to his power. But ODG always goes into "magic auto win vs Superman" and this is why this became Superman vs magic.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Vulnerable as many comic book characters, and We return to the original point.

No one ever mentions magic vulnerability when the thread involves other character than Superman.

The evidence has been shown to you, at this point you are clearly dismissing the evidence.

You want more evidence? Nah, never mind, you are gonna start crying again. More vulnerable.

Because his peers are not as vulnerable as Superman is. You think Black Adam is going to fight Captain Marvel and remark, "Captain Marvel's powers are based on magic. Toe-to-toe, he's got the advantage!" N1gga, please. There's a reason Superman god damn spelled it out for you. As it's virtually spelled out every time he confronts magic.

Half of your own out-of-context scans that you "carefully" cherry-picked backfired utterly on you by highlighting Superman's heightened reactions to magic.

Take your butthurt elsewhere. Or take up the battlezone so I can stamp out your farce completely and utterly. I certainly wouldn't mind driving you and your false myths out of this forum for another year and a half. My patience with this blatant mythcrafting is wearing thin.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Vulnerable as many comic book characters, and We return to the original point.

No one ever mentions magic vulnerability when the thread involves other character than Superman.

The evidence has been shown to you, at this point you are clearly dismissing the evidence.

You want more evidence? Nah, never mind, you are gonna start crying again.

To be fair, this thread is Superman versus Alan Scott, who happens to be a very powerful character in his own right and is powered by a potent source of magic. So yeah, Superman's showings against magic is going to be a relevant topic here.

Other characters aren't shown or stated to have a vulnerability or weakness or disadvantage (depending on the showing) to magic to the same degree Superman is, though. So, I'm not sure what bringing up other characters not named Superman and how they deal with magic has anything to do with this specific thread.

I will say that Superman does have good showings of enduring mystical onslaughts. No one can deny that. Conversely, no one can or should deny that consistently magic/mystical based weapons/attacks/etc are shown, alluded, or stated to be a problem for Superman.

Originally posted by biensalsa
I already mentioned that I have to see Alan Scott at the end of the post crisis.

I said it makes more sense to chalk a win to Alan due to his power. But ODG always goes into "magic auto win vs Superman" and this is why this became Superman vs magic.

Okay.

Except he's actually made several posts stating that magic isn't an auto win against Superman...?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
More vulnerable.

Because his peers are not as vulnerable as Superman is. You think Black Adam is going to fight Captain Marvel and remark, "Captain Marvel's powers are based on magic. Toe-to-toe, he's got the advantage!" N1gga, please. There's a reason Superman god damn spelled it out for you. As it's virtually spelled out every time he confronts magic.

Half of your own out-of-context scans that you "carefully" cherry-picked backfired utterly on you by highlighting Superman's heightened reactions to magic.

Take your butthurt elsewhere. Or take up the battlezone so I can stamp out your farce completely and utterly. I certainly wouldn't mind driving you and your false myths out of this forum for another year and a half. My patience with this blatant mythcrafting is wearing thin.

When ever you want

^ Tomorrow. 5 posts each. Originally posted by biensalsa
I already mentioned that I have to see Alan Scott at the end of the post crisis.

I said it makes more sense to chalk a win to Alan due to his power. But ODG always goes into "magic auto win vs Superman" and this is why this became Superman vs magic. And more of this false dochotomy bullsh1t. You quote one post where I state that magic is auto-win against Superman. And don't hide behind your broken English. You know enough to not lie about sh1t. That you do is both pathetic and sad.

How many times can you run to your false dichotomy safety blanket and how many times can I deconstruct how sloppy and ill-informed it is? At least one more time, it seems.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Tomorrow. 5 posts each.

Done. Time is a constrain for me, but I'm sure You work and I do too.

So, We do it based on post some time frame PM me, so We set this up.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Nobody even really cares that this is the original elite Green Lantern... whose power is magic based...

... magic based.

C'mon now.

Originally posted by biensalsa
But ODG always goes into "magic auto win vs Superman" and this is why this became Superman vs magic. Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Nobody even really cares that this is the original elite Green Lantern... whose power is magic based...

... magic based.

C'mon now. How the phuck is this statement translate to "magic = auto-win against Superman"? Stop being a complete a$$. You can do one of two things: admit you're lying about what I said or keep digging yourself a deeper hole.

Broken English only accounts for so much.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
How the phuck is this statement translate to "magic = auto-win against Superman"? Stop being a complete a$$. You can do one of two things: admit you're lying about what I said or keep digging yourself a deeper hole.

Broken English only accounts for so much.

Alan Scott vs Superman who wins?

Allan Scott powers are magic base, come on people MAGIC BASE!

How does that sound?

And funny You mention my english, last time IIRC you said You did not wanted to discuss things with someone with such a poor english like myself and somehow you keep talking to me?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman did not win that initial H2H fight in Superman/Batman. Superman's cuts, bruises and stark admission evince that.

Superman being weak to magic doesn't necessitate that he's as weak as a normal defenseless human being to it. That I've had to address this blatant false dichotomy multiple times only reveals how shallow of a counter-argument there actually is here and the paucity of evidence being relied on. Acting like Superman's weakness to magic is an all or nothing affair doesn't disprove that he is weaker to magic than his peers.

Magic is a significant factor. It has been in almost every single instance where Superman confronts magic. That is the plain, clear interpretation that has been spoonfed for decades of Superman comics for virtually all of his incarnations from the oldest to the newest. Acting otherwise is convenient pandering and bonethrowing at its best. At its worse, its blundering incompetence. The comics cannot be clearer.

Wrong.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Try posting the previous pages where Thor is fighting Hulk. That lightning bolt was not the one thing that Thor hit Hulk with during that fight. Accordingly, it was not a one shot, it was the last shot. This forum myth of Thor one-shotting Hulk with lightning is as ignorant as the forum myth that Superman isn't anymore weak to magic than anyone else.

It's not a myth. Hulk was beat-down, recovered, got-up, then got one-shot. Not my fault Hulk's stupid.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
How you ignore Superman's cut up face (and Billy's lack of) just as he makes that clear statement is beyond me. Reread the comic and don't waste my time. That you'd argue against me is one thing, that you'd argue against Superman's own statements and fights is something wholly different.

I hope you're just trolling because if you think this--

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Captain%20Marvel/S-B%204/SupermanBatman04-20.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Captain%20Marvel/S-B%204/SupermanBatman04-21.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Captain%20Marvel/S-B%204/SupermanBatman04-22.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Captain%20Marvel/S-B%204/SupermanBatman04-23.jpg

--is losing a fight, or being inferior in one, you need glasses(or a better prescription), have some serious competency issues or are just a Superman-hater. Superman's statement says one thing, his actions prove the opposite. Not to mention the fact that Superman's in less than peak condition, but still schools Billy.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
More vulnerable.

Because his peers are not as vulnerable as Superman is. You think Black Adam is going to fight Captain Marvel and remark, "Captain Marvel's powers are based on magic. Toe-to-toe, he's got the advantage!" N1gga, please. There's a reason Superman god damn spelled it out for you. As it's virtually spelled out every time he confronts magic.

This is one of the DUMBEST attempts at a counter for people arguing against Superman being specifically more vulnerable to magick than others. Salsa and I are referring to non-mystically powered beings. You're bringing-up those who ARE powered by magick and would have a particular resistance to it? That's just stupid, plain and simple.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Half of your own out-of-context scans that you "carefully" cherry-picked backfired utterly on you by highlighting Superman's heightened reactions to magic.

So I guess everything you don't like is out-of-context, cherry-picked or both.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
To be fair, this thread is Superman versus Alan Scott, who happens to be a very powerful character in his own right and is powered by a potent source of magic. So yeah, Superman's showings against magic is going to be a relevant topic here.

Other characters aren't shown or stated to have a vulnerability or weakness or disadvantage (depending on the showing) to magic to the same degree Superman is, though. So, I'm not sure what bringing up other characters not named Superman and how they deal with magic has anything to do with this specific thread.

I will say that Superman does have good showings of enduring mystical onslaughts. No one can deny that. Conversely, no one can or should deny that consistently magic/mystical based weapons/attacks/etc are shown, alluded, or stated to be a problem for Superman.

I really don't know just how powerful Alan Scott is. If he's way above a typical Green Lantern, then fine. But just because his power source is mystically enhanced, I don't see him having any greater advantage over Superman than regular GLs. And Superman did ok against PARALLAX, who arguably was enhanced. If Alan uses the Starheart energy to do stuff along the lines of casting spells then yeah, I can see him having a bigger edge, because Superman doesn't really have a resistance to stuff like that. But unless Alan makes blade constructs(I'd figure blade constructs of mystical energy would have similar properties to enchanted blades) then I don't see his constructs being any more effective because of their power source. I don't see Superman hurt more by mystical blasts than by equivalently powerful non-mystical blasts. I don't see Superman hurt by punches from Wonder Woman, Etrigan, Black Adam, Captain Marvel, ect anymore than equivalently strong non-mystical opponents.

OneDumbGo is entertaining.

Like the wise Digi said, magic should only be brought up if the fight is near even anyway. Then the edge should go to the magic user. Sounds fair? But if Superman already wins a solid majority over someone then magic may not sway the fact that Superman wins a slight majority or at least earns a split.

So not assuming the magical weakness then is this a near even fight? If so, then the edge should go to the magic user.
If not and Superman would win a solid majority then magic would just make it where Superman wins a split up to a slight majority.

In summary
Assuming no magical weakness then if:
1. Superman wins 7/10 without a magical weakness then we wins at least 5/10 with the magical weakness.
2. Superman splits without a magical weakness then he loses with the magical weakness.

Many say that Alan is powerful enough to at least split with Superman, assuming that Superman has no magical weakness. Well assuming he has a very slight magical weakness then the slight edge should go to Alan. For me I need to know Alan's best combat speed and reflex feats along with his best offensive feats to make a decision.

Originally posted by h1a8
Many say that Alan is powerful enough to at least split with Superman, assuming that Superman has no magical weakness. Well assuming he has a very slight magical weakness then the slight edge should go to Alan. For me I need to know Alan's best combat speed and reflex feats along with his best offensive feats to make a decision. http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/gifs/250.gif

Just to reiterate, I think Alan wins this fight regardless of the magic musings. The debate itself may have merit, but has no bearing on the outcome of this fight imo.

Originally posted by h1a8
Like the wise Digi said...

Didn't read the rest, but I'm assuming this post is gold.

Originally posted by Digi
Just to reiterate, I think Alan wins this fight regardless of the magic musings. The debate itself may have merit, but has no bearing on the outcome of this fight imo.

And if you think he wins simply because he's powerful enough, that's fine with me. I dunno much about Alan towards the end before DCnU. But I'm sick as f of people overrating magick against Superman. If Alan casts spells and shit like that, ok, him being mystical has more relevance, but I have seen NOTHING to prove that his constructs will be more potent just because they're made of mystical energy(except maybe blades; but that's it).

Originally posted by Delta1938
Wrong.

I hope you're just trolling because if you think this--

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Captain%20Marvel/S-B%204/SupermanBatman04-20.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Captain%20Marvel/S-B%204/SupermanBatman04-21.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Captain%20Marvel/S-B%204/SupermanBatman04-22.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Captain%20Marvel/S-B%204/SupermanBatman04-23.jpg

--is losing a fight, or being inferior in one, you need glasses(or a better prescription), have some serious competency issues or are just a Superman-hater. Superman's statement says one thing, his actions prove the opposite. Not to mention the fact that Superman's in less than peak condition, but still schools Billy. Superman's actions of admitting that Captain Marvel has a toe-to-toe advantage because of magic. Superman's actions of having a cut up face whereas Captain Marvel does not. Superman's actions of castling and switching opponents to avoid having to fight him further.

You're pretending that Superman was schooling Billy when, in fact, he outright admitted that Cap had the advantage in a straight up match and actually went out of his way to avoid fighting him in a straight up match.

You can't hope to spin this sh1t. Captain Marvel had the edge in that H2H fight. Magic opponents have the edge against Superman. Edges that don't exist with other similarly powerful opponents. That's made amply clear by Superman's statements, and more importantly, his various actions/reactions towards magic.

With magic on Alan Scott's level, one of the purest, rawest forms of magic in the entire DC universe, that does not become a small factor.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman's actions of admitting that Captain Marvel has a toe-to-toe advantage because of magic. Superman's actions of having a cut up face whereas Captain Marvel does not. Superman's actions of castling and switching opponents to avoid having to fight him further.

You're pretending that Superman was schooling Billy when, in fact, he outright admitted that Cap had the advantage in a straight up match and actually went out of his way to avoid fighting him in a straight up match.

You can't hope to spin this sh1t. Captain Marvel had the edge in that H2H fight. Magic opponents have the edge against Superman. Edges that don't exist with other similarly powerful opponents. That's made amply clear by Superman's statements, and more importantly, his various actions/reactions towards magic.

With magic on Alan Scott's level, one of the purest, rawest forms of magic in the entire DC universe, that does not become a small factor.

You're either really stupid, or butthurt is making you say such stupid shit.

^ Cry more. I'm sorry you can't understand even the most basic of statements made by Superman accompanied by colorful pictures illustrating same. Captain Marvel was edging Superman out in H2H. Superman said he would. Superman looked worse than Captain Marvel. Superman deliberately called a play to avoid fighting him further.

How much clearer can you get? This is "Thanos stalemated Odin" levels, right here. Originally posted by Delta1938
This is one of the DUMBEST attempts at a counter for people arguing against Superman being specifically more vulnerable to magick than others. Salsa and I are referring to non-mystically powered beings. You're bringing-up those who ARE powered by magick and would have a particular resistance to it? That's just stupid, plain and simple.

So I guess everything you don't like is out-of-context, cherry-picked or both. You mean like Superman being utterly hypnotized (for the entire arc) by Nudge during the Tenth Circle storyline whereas John Stewart resists it, and moreover, Batman utterly no sells it (along with Martian Manhunter)? You mean non-mystically powered beings like them:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Nudge01JLA94.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Nudge02JLA95.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Nudge03JLA95.jpg

Superman has far weaker mental resistance than Stewart, let alone Batman??? No, hes does not. Or how about Superman being pierced and poisoned by the enchanted weapons of the Diablos for the entire Black Baptism storyarc whereas Plastic Man no sells multiple shots:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Diablos01JLABlackBaptism1.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Diablos02JLABlackBaptism3.jpg

Plastic Man is more durable than Superman??? No, he is not. That sh1ts off the top of my head and only what I have immediate access to, clownshoes. Of course, I'm sure even my prior examples of Superman being enslaved/turned by vampires while meta humans like Wolverine and Ult. Cap shrugging them off similarly didn't get past the density layering your skull. Those aren't even Superman's peers ffs and they're certainly not magic based. So take your red herring to the trash where it belongs.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You mean like Superman being utterly hypnotized (for the entire arc) by Nudge during the Tenth Circle storyline whereas John Stewart resists it, and moreover, Batman utterly no sells it (along with Martian Manhunter)? You mean non-mystically powered beings like them:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Nudge01JLA94.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Nudge02JLA95.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Nudge03JLA95.jpg

Or how about Superman being pierced and poisoned by the enchanted weapons of the Diablos for the entire Black Baptism storyarc whereas Plastic Man no sells them:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Diablos01JLABlackBaptism1.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/th_Diablos02JLABlackBaptism3.jpg

That sh1ts off the top of my head and only what I have immediate access to, clownshoes. Of course, I'm sure even my prior examples of Superman being enslaved/turned by vampires while meta humans like Wolverine and Ult. Cap shrugging them off similarly didn't get past the density layering your skull. Those aren't even Superman's peers ffs and they're certainly not magic based. So take your red herring to the trash where it belongs.

Where did I ever deny about enchanted blades? By the way, proof that Nudge was mystical? That storyline had the vampires looking for teenagers with the metagene. I saw nothing to indicate that Nudge was mystically powered, so there's a fail on comparing to John Stewart having greater mystical resistance. And Crucifer mind controlling Superman? Yeah, after he'd already been under control from Nudge. Stupid argument there. And the J'Onn comparison? You mean when he was expecting to just have an unpleasant taste from Wonder Woman, to end-up consuming large amounts of alien blood, which was poisonous? You really think that Crucifer controlling Superman, taking smaller amounts of blood at a time, AFTER Nudge had already gotten him under control is any real comparison to Crucifer attempting to turn who he thinks is Wonder Woman into a vampire as well? It was specifically stated the larger amount of J'Onn's blood he suddenly consumed was why Crucifer reacted like he did, not that J'Onn had greater resistance. For f sake, did you even read it? I guess not, since you automatically assumed Nudge was mystical.

And you think my skull is dense, you put a black hole to shame. You whined about my example of Captain Marvel. NOWHERE did Cap actually SHOW an edge. You make a big deal over shit like cuts? Superman was weakened. Oh, but you either didn't read it, or to admit that would be giving Superman his props.