Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

The clash of two powerful Force users.
Who takes it?


Setting: Senate building on Curuscant, where Yoda fought Sidious.

1) Sabers
2) Force
3) All-out

Luke.

I concur.
Even though Bane is powerful, he is not THAT powerful.

Sabers: Luke
Force: Luke
All-out: Luke pwns Bane

Sabers : Luke
All-out : Luke
Force: I would say it is draw. Although, Luke has more potential, Bane gets greater power as darksider by using such emotions as rage and hatred. As result his Force attacks are far more lethal like that shock wave capable to shatter all bones and pulverize flash into mass of pulpy liquid. But it hardly matters as even less powerful opponent can defend against such attacks. Kas'im - less powerful, than Bane, successfully blocked that Bane's Force blast. Moreover, Luke excel in defending against even more powerful attacks, for example blocking Force attack empowered by millions of killiks.

Also, Luke and Jacen invented alternative way of mustering immense power by overexerting themselves beyond capabilities at expense of blood cells burning out. As result Luke was highly combat effective even, when Force exhausted as evidenced, when Luke and Ben got ambushed by 15 Sith strike team, survived only Vestara because Luke let her.
And using the same technique allowed him to overpower opponents at crucial moments. By catching off guard he managed to Force block even Jacen and crush metal chair, while still holding him (which Jacen to his embarrassment couldn't bend back up after). He's done same thing to Gavar Khai and he was pinned to a wall for some time even after fight with other Sith started. Also, he was Force pushing around Lord Taalon empowered by Pool of Knowledge.
Also, Luke as result of restraining himself for many ears learned how to use Force wisely during combat and defeat opponents by utilizing least amount needed. Most notable example is fight against Baran Do Master Koro Ziil. Luke blocked his Force lightning (purely white) with lightsaber. Then Ziil conjured Force whirlwind, which Luke countered by simply rooting himself into place. Then Luke threw pillar torn away by the whirlwind and before Ziil could regain concentration Luke delivered simple kick instead of using Force attack. As result after kick Ziil fell down because of Force exhaustion, while Luke was only slightly fatigued.

Overall, I don't think that Luke would be able to handle Bane with Force alone. Force choke would be possible but he would not use it. And Bane even with greater power given by the darkside trying to handle Luke with Force would only tire himself up with no result.

I don't really agree with that assessment. Luke was not only trained as a Sith Apprentice during DE, giving him insight into the Dark Side, but at this point he is the strongest person to have ever lived. I do not think that Luke is stupid enough to not realize he would have to go all out in a Force fight with Bane, and thereafter would absolutely crush him.

His morals do restrain him from most offensive powers, however, at the same time it is his greatest strength, it granted him victory so many times. In DE, when he used darkside, Sidious toyed him around but, when he fully embraced lightside, the odds changed.
Apart from Gamoreans the only time I know, when he used Force choke, was against Welk but he quickly amended himself and stopped. At that point his lightsaber was disabled, there was every reason to go all out, yet, he still refused.
In final battle against Abeloth with no lightsaber he used Force blasts only and mainly engaged her physically.
It is FotJ Luke, he is firmly on lightside and doesn't use darkside powers no matter what. Should there be contest without lightsaber, he would utilize Force blasts only and empower himself to engage in hand-to-hand combat.
Also, when Luke actually goes all-out in angry mode, he tends to use lightsaber only just like RotS Anakin.
And come on, Bane is one of the most powerful Sith known, he can't be just crushed by the Force, even if it is Luke. And I believe there is no single example, where Luke would crush someone with the Force.

I don't mean literally crush. I mean more like either
A) Bash him around enough (Because again, Luke is not stupid enough to see that Bane would win if he held back or if he went into a fist fight)
or B) Do some crazy crap to him.

Luke would win, but I think it'd be closer than some people believe.

He certainly wouldn't hold back, when mustering Force blasts or delivering his favorite elbow strikes. What I meant by restrain is that he wouldn't use Force choke, lightning, mind domination and other darkside related powers.
But my original point is that darkside gives far greater power. That's why Bane not gonna be Force handled. On the other hand, if Luke was evil and embraced darkside, then Bane would truly be crushed.

Oh, I agree with his lack of use of dark side- oriented powers.


But my point was that the dark side only gives a faster road to power. Neither side holds more power than the other, the Dark Side just gives faster and easier access to more power. The Light Side demands work and discipline, but is arguably better in the long run. At this point, Luke is pretty much the Avatar of the Light. He was never fully turned, and is pretty much incorruptible at this point.

Though I disagree, if Luke fell to the Dark, then he would be next to worthless. He was born to walk in the Light.

Yeah, unlike his naturally badass father (post-RotS), he's a piece of shit dark sider. It was clear in DE.

But my point was that the dark side only gives a faster road to power. Neither side holds more power than the other
Actually it does.
Compare feats of Exile and Nihilus.
Compare feats of Jedi Knight and Vitiate.
Compare feats of Galen Marek with any Jedi, his TK feats far beyond any Jedi including Luke. His rage gave him power beyond his limits.
Compare feats of Jaina Solo and Caedus. There was clear power difference between them.
Compare Anakin, when he fights together with Kenobi and, when he is unsupervised and succumb to his anger.
Count Dooku was Jedi all his life, yet, he became even more powerful as Sith. Even Yoda said: "Powerful you have become, the darkside I sense in you".
Finally Sidious - he is the most obvious evidence of how powerful an evil darksider can become.
One of the main advantages of Sith is that they embrace anger and get enraged and it gives huge boost of power. And they use various other ways to amplify their power.

Agree. That's why I said "if he was evil". Because since he is not evil, he would suck as darksider even more, than his father.

Originally posted by Pwned
But my point was that the dark side only gives a faster road to power. Neither side holds more power than the other, the Dark Side just gives faster and easier access to more power. The Light Side demands work and discipline, but is arguably better in the long run. That is why your post is wrong there. Same Force, same amount of power given. Time to access it is the only difference.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death

Originally posted by Major Valerian
Luke would win, but I think it'd be closer than some people believe.

Originally posted by Pwned
That is why your post is wrong there. Same Force, same amount of power given. Time to access it is the only difference.
Yoda was Jedi for over 800 years. Was he more powerful, than Sidious?

Luke as you say during DE was the most powerful user ever but was he more powerful, than Sidious? Not really. It took combined effort of Luke and Lea just to break Sidious' control over Force Storm. And still Sidious wasn't stopped or subdued, he just got into uncontrolable rage and continued channeling the Storm chaoticaly.

Meetra Surik was immenselly powerful but she never got even remotely as powerful as Nihilus.

Ones again I point out at Anakin. It is clear that he was becoming much more powerful by tapping into his anger, than when he was calm.

Oppress after getting enraged Force choked Dooku and Ventress, who were both far more experienced and immensely powerful themselves. Same for Ventress Force choking both Anakin and Kenobi.

Jaina and Jacen both achieved their full potential during over a decade of training and participating in wars. However, after becoming Sith Jacen was drawing on his anger and pain, which gave him far greater power. That's why it was only him using Force offensively, while Jaina barely defending and relying on precision and accuracy instead.

Sidious commited so many atrocities and fed on them that he became darkside nexus himself.

No matter how long Jedi study they will never achieve feats that Sith capable of. Jedi don't use anger, hatered, pain and fear to boost their power. They don't drain life Force from millions of beings or entire planets and don't amplify themselves by darkside nexuses, dark rituals, amulets and other stuff.

Jedi limit themselves from a lot of resources avaliable and win by better focus, precision and mind clarity offered by lightside instead.

Originally posted by Arhael
Meetra Surik was immenselly powerful


laughcry

Actually, I wouldn't say that by DE Luke was the most powerful yet.

And, well of course it's not as simple. Raw potential has a lot to do with how powerful you can become once you reach your peak...


Edit - I'd say Meetra's powerful, just not that powerful. She's above-average for sure.

Originally posted by ares834
laughcry

She actually was. Its just that Karpyshan couldn't stand to have her be as good as his Gary Stu, so she seems crap in Revan.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
I'd say Meetra's powerful, just not that powerful. She's above-average for sure.

Actually, above-average is an understatement. She's quite powerful, but maybe not as powerful as some might think. You can blame Karpyshyn.

Yeah, there aren't many people who could solo a Sith temple. Plus she has that ridiculous learning rate.

Must have been some weak ass sith then...

Probably. Still, a lone Jedi Knight vs. roughly 300 Sith minions + Traya + Sion...


It's quite a feat.

Sadly, I just can't take her as some amazing Jedi after both her and Scourge were defeated by that Dark Lord in Revan . Yet, Revan pwns said Sith with a single attack.

That really was an awful book.

There are only two possible explanations, thanks to our writer Karpyshyn who screwed Revan up so good.

1. Nyriss was very powerful indeed.

2. Bad writing, lack of logic, screwing up and contradicting a character's prowess by making Nyriss destroy Meetra.

It was. It really was. In fact, at times, it appeared Drew was trying his hardest to overwrite KotOR 2. At one point it claims Traya led a group of Jedi to the dark side rather than lead the remnants of Revan's empire and then there was the whole fiasco about the Exile never feeling a void in the force. Plus he gave her the absolute worst name possible, hell it's so bad I refuse to use it.

Sadly, that by default makes either Meetra a weakling, or Revan a powerhouse. Or both.

Though if the fight took place on Dromund Kaas then there was probably a dark side nexus at work that heightened Nyriss' power.

So Scourge sucks, then. But we knew that already.

Still, it's clear that Nyriss would've defeated both of them, even if there wasn't a dark side nexus.

Like Bane's feats on Ambria and Lehon, the Emperor's feats on Byss, Traya's on Malachor V, Nyriss's attacks cannot be interpreted as an accurate portrayal of her typical abilities. Though it is funny that Scourge, who should have been able to access the nexus as well, still couldn't threaten Nyriss even with Surik's aid.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
So Scourge sucks, then. But we knew that already.

I'm really not willing to go through another Karpyshyn book cover-to-cover, so does anyone have a laundry list of feats that Bane performs in ROT and DOE, preferably with excerpts/page numbers/distinguishing markers?

Actually, I'd say the only really bad Karpyshyn book was Revan. The others weren't half as bad.


Btw, I miss you.

Originally posted by ares834
Sadly, I just can't take her as some amazing Jedi after both her and Scourge were defeated by that Dark Lord in Revan . Yet, Revan pwns said Sith with a single attack.
Then you failed to understand the intended message;

1. Nyriss is intended to be that powerful.
2. Revan possessed amazing command of the Force (many acknowledged this). He is one of the few who could handle Nyriss single-handedly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That really was an awful book.
Novel is not awful. Some parts of the story lack depth and are poorly constructed. It seems as if the novel has been rushed or the author did not had much time. Unfortunately, Drew Karpyshan had a golden opportunity and failed to exploit it fully IMO.

Originally posted by ares834
It was. It really was. In fact, at times, it appeared Drew was trying his hardest to overwrite KotOR 2. At one point it claims Traya led a group of Jedi to the dark side rather than lead the remnants of Revan's empire and then there was the whole fiasco about the Exile never feeling a void in the force. Plus he gave her the absolute worst name possible, hell it's so bad I refuse to use it.
I did not see any noticeable retcons regarding KoTOR II. In fact, Drew clarified and explaining events of KoTOR II was not his objective. He just briefly revisited them.

And you are wrong about Meetra. Drew clearly hinted upon the established canon about Meetra that she once managed to cut herself off from the Force. Hint: Revan once attempted Galaxy-wide search of Exile with the Force but could not feel her presence anywhere. He later found out why; Meetra was a wound in the Force during this time.

However, Drew established in his story that Meetra slowly regained her connection with the Force and no longer remained a wound.

Now supposedly, even if Meetra had remained a wound in the Force, would this have changed the outcome in the novel?

Originally posted by Major Valerian
So Scourge sucks, then. But we knew that already.

Still, it's clear that Nyriss would've defeated both of them, even if there wasn't a dark side nexus.
Scourge does not sucks. He emerged as the finest warrior in the Sith Academy where he was trained. Also, he has killed hundreds of Jedi and Sith by the time of Satele Shan.

Yes, Nyriss is intended to be that much powerful.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
Sadly, that by default makes either Meetra a weakling, or Revan a powerhouse. Or both.
No. Drew made it clear that Meetra was powerful. But Nyriss was very powerful.

Originally posted by Col. Novine
Like Bane's feats on Ambria and Lehon, the Emperor's feats on Byss, Traya's on Malachor V, Nyriss's attacks cannot be interpreted as an accurate portrayal of her typical abilities. Though it is funny that Scourge, who should have been able to access the nexus as well, still couldn't threaten Nyriss even with Surik's aid. That is actually incorrect, because Lehon was not a nexus at that point. It was stronger in the Dark Side to make it noticeable, but it did not particularly enhance his abilities. At all.

Ambria..... I can not remember quite what he did there that was so special. He took out 12 Elite Guards of Hetton or whatshisname. And the guy himself. But they were all insanely weak people, and he had orbalisks. He fought Zannah there once, but again, it was the orbalisks. When he finally fought Zannah on Ambria for the final duel, he still did not do much special. Most of his best feats come from normal planets. The only one that did not, to my knowledge, is the field of dark side energy, which was at Prakith.

Originally posted by Col. Novine
Like Bane's feats on Ambria and Lehon,

Thon collected and confined all the darkside on Ambria into a lake, so it wouldn't be a nexus, and Lehon isn't stated as being a darkside nexus either.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
However, Drew established in his story that Meetra slowly regained her connection with the Force and no longer remained a wound.

This contradicts what the game tells us about Exile. Throughout the game she insists that she's regained her connection, but everyone goes 'you have, but not really.' Eventually its revealed that no, she hasn't, shes just leeching the Force off of others.

Its an understandable mistake on Drews part, so I'll just ignore what he said about her regaining the Force.

I have pdf/word document copies of all three books at home so I'll try to find both quotes/excerpts later.

Korriban's nexus has diminished over the years, yes (this is confirmed by Book of Sith), but it was still sufficient to impede the combat performance of both Luke and Jaina well into Fate of the Jedi while simultaneously empowering their Sith opponents. For Lehon to be more powerful than even a weakening Korriban is still extraordinary.

Cool, I'd check it myself, but I lost my bookmark of the russian site when I rebooted Windows.

Well its entirely possible that it grew stronger after Bane's time, because from what I remember Bane seemed to think it was nearly non-existent.

Closed due to sock interaction.

Nephthys, that's several times you've done this now. If you keep doing this, you are going to be banned.