Mara Jade vs. Darth Sidious

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Zampanó
Setting one: Death Star Detention Block C
Combatants:
Mara Jade Skywalker
As of the end of Sacrifice, Mara Jade was one of the most powerful and deadly combatants in the galaxy.
Darth Sidious
At the end of Revenge of the Sith, Sidious has revealed himself as a Sith Lord of considerable skill.


The two will fight to the death in the pits of the Sith's greatest superweapon.


Setting Two: Kavan Caves, Hapes Cluster
For anyone doubting the "most Powerful Sith Lord" can be challenged in any way, suppose that Mara is bloodlusted just as she was against Darth Caedus.

Zampanó
Though her focus is centered on her erstwhile nephew, her thoughts drift through the years back to the other major Sith Lord that threatened her galaxy. When put into a life or death combat situation, Mara considers Palpatine a precedent. The idea that she feels responsibility for his actions and her own inaction lends credence to the idea that, in her professional opinion, her ultimate set of skills and abilities would have been sufficient to kill the powerful Sith lord years in advance of his eventual demise. I intend to prove that Mara's brand of brawling and badassery would be sufficient, in certain circumstances, to destroy the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.


Of Palpatine, I do not need to say much. I will note that as of RotS, he had touched a lightsaber maybe three times in the past decade. Gideon's Palpatine Essay does a far better job than I would of enumerating the many ways in which Darth Sidious's scholarship of the Force put him among the very top tier of mystics.


Mara, the beneficiary of an older Palpatine's training, is not a mystic. Rather, she has a very particular set of skills, skills she acquired over a very long career. Skills that make her a nightmare for people like Palpatine. It is my contention that the degree of bloodlust displayed in the Kavan caves illustrates a combatant capable of DPS far in excess of what most combatants are prepared for. Let's look at that fight scene first:

Zampanó

Zampanó
For reference, Jacen is uniquely tolerant to pain, having survived and transcended the embrace of pain during the events of "Traitor:"

Jacen endured torture and interrogation without respite for days on end without the aid of the Force. Among all of the combatants discussed here, I cannot think of anyone who even rivals this feat. And yet Mara nearly floored him with her first attack. Her tactics put one of the most durable combatants in the galaxy on the defensive without warning. That last bit is particularly important; Jacen was known to be particularly perceptive and talented in manipulation of the Force. (He even managed to create a telepathic link with creatures dead to the Force.) For all his esoteric abilities, Jacen was unable to sense Mara or his impending doom via the Force.

This is a vital point. Sidious, in his duel with Windu, commented on the Jedi's sudden awareness of a third party's emotions (Anakin's fear). In the novelization, Sidious is as aware of Windu's thought patterns as the Jedi is himself. To fight an opponent without that awareness will be a disadvantage we have not seen him cope with before.

Mara is all about generating disadvantages. Beyond the surprise attack, she was very specific about the terrain in which she would fight Jacen. She set traps, only engaging on her own terms. Specifically, close quarters combat, designed to limit his opportunity to use the Force, was the order of the day. Even when battered by the far-more-powerful Force titan with relatively obscure tactics ("Force jolt her spine"wink she deflects everything and takes the fight to the ground. Palpatine would not last nearly long as did Caedus if the fight got to the point where "it was a brawl."

Caedus himself was rather dismissive of Mara's talents, but she had high level mastery over many Force powers, and the ability to use many of them at once.

Mara is shown to be capable of sustaining (under severe distracting factors) multiple Force powers at once. While this does not put her on the same level as Palpatine or Yoda, in conjunction with her defense against Caedus's attacks it does illustrate that her mastery of the Force is sufficient to defend her against titanic Force abilities.

Mara's proven ability to deal with powerful Force users, along with the truly barbaric fighting style displayed in post 2/3, afford her a place among the galaxy's most effective killers. While I do not believe and will not argue that she would survive an arena match with Palpatine, any situation which allows her the close-quarters combat style displayed in the Kavan caves will end with a dead Palpatine. She can hide herself effectively in the Force, and she can equalize skill differences in Force and Blade ability. She is perfectly situated to kill the Emperor.

S_W_LeGenD
I believe that Sidious knows a thing or two about Mara's talents.

Sidious is also more powerful and skilled combatant then Jacen. Even if we consider intelligence, it is one of his strong points. Yes! Jacen can fight dirty - but Sidious employs tremendous speed, reflexes, offensive ferocity, and Strength in the Force. If Sidious exhausted Yoda with his powers, Mara have little hope.

So unless, Mara gets massive circumstances based advantage to begin with, she does not stands a chance.

It is also difficult to assume that Mara would be able to fight on her own terms against Sidious. Because Sidious is a strategist too.

Also, Sidious can collapse sections of tunnels or other constructions over Mara - given his strength in the Force OR may counter similar moves by Mara with his powers. His powers are very effective in offensive sense. Several times we have seen that Sidious can trap even powerful Force-wielders with his powers.

How would Mara manage to break free from lets say - prolonged Force Lightning barrage from Sidious?

However, it is possible that Mara may manage to prolong the fight with her talents and find the opportunity to injure Sidious, at least, in a setting like Kavan Caves by denying him the opportunity to take her out early on or slow down his advances.

But if Sidious decides to win and Mara is alone, you can do the math.

Master_Galen
Regardless of this being ROTS Sidious, he is still more powerful than any version of Mara Jade.

You also have to take in to account that Mara was raised by pretty much this version of Sidious and recieved all of her training from him or the best he could find in her other areas of training. All the training she did after with the NJO was built around the foundation put in place by Sidious.

Battlemaster

Battlemaster
- I'll add that Mara has defeated a deadly and Dark side-empowered Kyle before.

Yeah, mathematically, Mara has cleared the power-gap here - she stands at least on even footing with Sidious, no matter how you slice it.

Master_Galen
How did you come to the conclusion that Mara is even near DE Luke. Besides, DE Luke only beat DE Sidious with the help (battle meditation) of Leia.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Master_Galen
How did you come to the conclusion that Mara is even near DE Luke.


Read my posts again - plus (and I didn't notice this before - but the only reason Caedus really won was because of that illusion of Ben he was able to cast into her mind, and the poison he injected into her) if Caedus hadn't been able to use the illusion and poison at just the right time - Mara would have murdered him.

This puts her on even ground with Caedus - who is more powerful than Peak Kyle - who would logically (if you read the books and played the games, but if you haven't, you might not get this) be just as, or more powerful than DE Luke.




Originally posted by Master_Galen

Besides, DE Luke only beat DE Sidious with the help (battle meditation) of Leia.

Incorrect. Luke Skywalker is the Force God and perfect in every conceivable way.

There is no way Leia used Battle Meditation in that duel - and there is no way you can prove it.

I mean, the radio-drama (Empire's End) states she used Battle Meditation, but why would we believe that?

Master_Galen
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Read my posts again - plus (and I didn't notice this before - but the only reason Caedus really won was because of that illusion of Ben he was able to cast into her mind, and the poison he injected into her) if Caedus hadn't been able to use the illusion and poison at just the right time - Mara would have murdered him.

This puts her on even ground with Caedus - who is more powerful than Peak Kyle - who would logically (if you read the books and played the games, but if you haven't, you might not get this) be just as, or more powerful than DE Luke.

By who's logic, where is it stated that Kyle can contend with Luke?


Originally posted by Battlemaster
Incorrect. Luke Skywalker is the Force God and perfect in every conceivable way.

There is no way Leia used Battle Meditation in that duel - and there is no way you can prove it.

I mean, the radio-drama (Empire's End) states she used Battle Meditation, but why would we believe that?

It is stated, as you said, in the radio drama of Empire's End. Whether you believe it or nor does not matter, it is stated.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Master_Galen
By who's logic, where is it stated that Kyle can contend with Luke?



Do you know what the difference between DE Luke and FotJ Luke is?





Originally posted by Master_Galen

It is stated, as you said, in the radio drama of Empire's End. Whether you believe it or nor does not matter, it is stated.


I think ares834 is under the assumption none of that matters.

Master_Galen
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Do you know what the difference between DE Luke and FotJ Luke is?


Yes i know of the difference in power between these two incarnations of Luke, however i still feel DE Luke would defeat Kyle although it would not be as easy.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Master_Galen
Yes i know of the difference in power between these two incarnations of Luke, however i still feel DE Luke would defeat Kyle although it would not be as easy.


Peak Kyle?

No. Kyle would break him down, after a tough fight.

Peak Mara as well.

Master_Galen
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Peak Kyle?

Peak Kyle would not be able to defeat DE Sidious. Also Peak Kyle lost to Caedus even with three Jedi Knights helping him.

Pwned
Yeah, Kyle may be good, but he's not great. All in all, you can compare him to Kenobi, just without the saber skills.

Frankly, I think most of the Jedi Council by FotJ have reached just below DE Luke in terms of power, and its all from just being trained for years upon years. Luke was still a relative novice at that time. The fact he beat Sidious, even under BM, is still pretty impressive.

However, I think that if Mara goes at this the same way she went after Caedus, she has a chance. Caedus just barely got that dart in time, and he is also physically stronger than Sidious. Does Mara get any prep time?

Arhael

Pwned
Well, this thread shall now be derailed insanely fast by various insults, denials, and butthurting from many sides.



HOWEVAH: I am going to go eat bacon and play pokemon, so i do not care.

Yeah, I play Pokemon still. You got a problem with that?

Arhael
I gonna give support to Mara as well. Just need to think of what to write, not much evidence she's got apart from Caedus. )

Master_Galen
Force Harmony would help more than BM as it is said to protect against Dark side powers, along with severing Dark side users from the Dark side. Therefore Luke gets an even bigger help from Leia than i thought.

Arhael
Originally posted by Master_Galen
Force Harmony would help more than BM as it is said to protect against Dark side powers, along with severing Dark side users from the Dark side. Therefore Luke gets an even bigger help from Leia than i thought.
Yes. BM boosts morals and confidence, while Force harmony is more like variation of Oneness with the Force but between twins, this feat is even more unique, than normal Oneness and the only example I know. They used it to counter Force Storm, so it was like darkside disaster vs lightside miracle contest. Luke won Palpatine in combat but it would be silly, if he overpowered him with the Force by himself. After all the darkside gives greater power.

Nephthys
I have to admit, despite how crappy LotF got, that was a damn good fight scene.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Read my posts again - plus (and I didn't notice this before - but the only reason Caedus really won was because of that illusion of Ben he was able to cast into her mind, and the poison he injected into her) if Caedus hadn't been able to use the illusion and poison at just the right time - Mara would have murdered him.

Its worth pointing out that Caedus shouldn't have been able to do that. A mistake was made in the text, if you look you can see that both of Jacen's arms are occupied at that point. He's grabbing her hair, holding his lightsaber and fumbling for a dart all at the same time. Unless he grew a 3rd arm he shouldn't have been able to do that.

Nephthys
Personally I don't think that Sidious would be thick enough to follow her into what was obviously a trap like Caedus was. For a smart guy, Jacen was ****ing dumb as hell at points.

Sidious probably would have followed through with what Jacen said at the beginning about smoking her out. Though wouldn't he be able to sense her through their Force Bond?

Arhael
Back to the topic smile.

As I remember in the Book, where Luke first meets Mara at some point he notices how she often uses piercing strikes apart from regular slashes. While Luke couldn't guess where it is coming from, author's implication was that her style is similar to Palpatine.

While Palpatine is uber skilled with lightsaber, I didn't see any evidence of him utilizing kicks and unarmed combat. He seems to be pure fencer.
But Mara on top of lightsaber combat was trained as Assassin and as result was very versatile and excelled at survival during fight. Roughly I would say her fighting skill was something similar to Maul.

She got Apprenticed by Kyle Katarn. And it didn't take long for her to surpass him. He fell to darkside at Dromund Kaas. She came to rescue and not only resisted corruption herself but fought him and successfully fended off all his attacks, he kept retreating from her.

Her speed feats are easy to evaluate. She was fast enough to fight Caedus, who in turn was fast enough to fight all-out Luke, who was fast enough to defeat Sidious. So she is fast enough for Sidious.

As Zampano gave nice recap of her fight with Caedus, it is clear that he is much more powerful, than her, yet, she showed incredible Force defenses, she resisted and mitigated his attacks as much as possible.

Caedus is not the only example of her encountering more powerful foe, than her. Together with Luke she fought Joorus C'baot. His madness gave him enormous power. He could give wide Force lightning that Luke only partially was able to block with lightsaber, the rest was stinging his legs. C'baot channeled powerful vortex of stone rubble. He, also, excelled in mind domination and made a puppet out of Luke's clone. Moreover, Luke was heavily distracted by mental noise caused by his clone's presence, so a lot depended on Mara. Also, she was nowhere near her full potential as she didn't use Force after Emperor death for years and started regaining her connection only recently. Still, she showed herself well in the fight and was the one who slaughtered both Luuke and C'baot.

The biggest "IF" is whether she will be able to defend against Sidious' Force attacks. She barely defended against Jacen. And Sidious is even more powerful. Weaker Force users can put adequate defense against stronger ones but, if power difference is too big, then there is simply no chance. We can only guess how much more powerful Sidious' instant TK attacks are, Mara would have very hard time blocking them. Even, if she can overcome them, there is, also, Force lightning of enormous strength. She can block lightning but his one might be too strong. Even Luke didn't display blocking his lightning and instead tanked it like a Boss but Mara couldn't afford to tank it. big grin

The only his power I don't worry about is mind domination. Considering her Force bond with Luke and Ben, she's got MAD MOTHER IMMUNITY.

My conclusion is that Mara has fairly good chance against him, if she manage to reach him and engage in lightsaber combat. But, if he utilizes his offensive Force attacks as frequently as Jacen, then her chances are very small.

SIDIOUS 66

Stea1th Moose

Zampanó
Essentially, I believe that replacing Caedus with (almost) any other character during the Duel in the Kavan Caves would translate to a win for Mara. Color me impressed.

I'm willing to extend that to arena fights as well, but on a much more hesitant basis. When I've encountered resistance by equating Mara with Zannah, you understand why I might be hesitant to put her in a room with Sidious.

Stea1th Moose

ares834
Your avatar doesn't match

Stea1th Moose
Didn't want it too be too confusing. Besides, I like mine better.

Arhael
Not really. I doubt he trained her personally. She was trained alongside Imperial Royal Guards. She was not taught in Sith ways. And Sidious was too old to teach her combat personally, he wasn't even caring lightsaber. It's easier to give her over to training stuff and droids like he did with Maul. The fact that Emperor Hands didn't know each other means that he barely see them. He just set mental link and command them from distance.

Stea1th Moose
Numerous sources credit Palpatine as being responsible for Mara's training. While he clearly supervised her training and provided instruction (as he did with Maul), no one insinuated he was down doing one handed pushups beside her like Jack Palance.

Additionally, The Force Unleashed shows that Sidious carried a lightsaber on his person even as late as 2 BBY. The fact that they didn't know each other means that they were given orders separately, not that he never saw them.

SIDIOUS 66
Allegiance states that Mara was trained personally by Palpatine.

Stea1th Moose
Got an excerpt/page number/preferably both?
Page 145 of The Essential Guide to the Force corroborates that Mara was trained in combat arts alongside Imperial Royal Guardsmen (which Palpatine and Vader are both known to personally observe on many occasions) but Palpatine himself "personally" trained her in the ways of the Force.

Arhael
Akey smile

SIDIOUS 66
Page 38:

"Mara was the Emperor's Hand, recruited and trained personally by him, and he trusted her instincts"

Could have been refering to her force training. It didn't specify.

Lord Lucien
I doubt very much that Palpatine would have the time to teach so many disciples in lightsaber technique on top of everything else they needed to learn to function as effective, elite agents--on top of everything else he was involved in. Something as rudimentary as sword fighting would be better left to other disciples--he had plenty of them. Palpatine would prefer having direct involvement in their Force tutelage--better means of control and influence.

Stealth Moose
tl;dr

Mara solos.

ares834
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
tl;dr

Marka solos.

fixed

Stealth Moose
Yeah, who do you think decides the outcome of battles? GodRagnos alone decides that. And he possesses Mara before she owns Sidious.

Stea1th Moose
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I doubt very much that Palpatine would have the time to teach so many disciples in lightsaber technique on top of everything else they needed to learn to function as effective, elite agents--on top of everything else he was involved in. Something as rudimentary as sword fighting would be better left to other disciples--he had plenty of them. Palpatine would prefer having direct involvement in their Force tutelage--better means of control and influence.

Sidious is pretty much the poster Sith for superb time management.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Nephthys
I have to admit, despite how crappy LotF got, that was a damn good fight scene.



Its worth pointing out that Caedus shouldn't have been able to do that. A mistake was made in the text, if you look you can see that both of Jacen's arms are occupied at that point. He's grabbing her hair, holding his lightsaber and fumbling for a dart all at the same time. Unless he grew a 3rd arm he shouldn't have been able to do that.


Caedus had very rare control over his body, thanks to Vergere, and had developed a very prehensile Penis - which he used to grab and utilize the dart.

Talk about wanking a victory. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Battlemaster
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Being the one to train Mara Jade since childhood, Palpatine will have the advantage of knowing more about her fighting style than Jacen did.


In the Thrawn Trilogy, Mara states that she had held a lightsaber, perhaps a handful of times in her entire life, let alone use one.

Palpatine would not have likely trained her in more than basic techniques and such.


If you want to talk people who trained her and really know her Jedi fighting skills - that would be Kyle Katarn.

Kyle was the one who truly taught Mara how to develop her swordsmanship with a lightsaber, and was the one who spearheaded her Jedi training.


Palpatine knew Mara Jade - the young girl and Emperor's Hand who fought more with a vibroblade and blaster than anything else.

Palpatine does not and has never known Mara Jade - the Jedi Master who is one of the finest swordsbeings of the Order, who managed to defeat a Dark Kyle Katarn who was on par with Darth Vader, at an early age - and who later destroyed countless deadly Vong warriors, and who is also on par with the man who could kill RotS Palpatine himself - Caedus.

Jacen knows Mara the Jedi Master - Palpatine, does not.

Pwned
Eh, I am not quite sure you could put Caedus on par with Palpatine. Just because he is insanely powerful, doesn't mean he can compare with teh M0st Powahfullll S1th Lord ta evar exist EVAR!1!11!!!1!1!11!1!

Arhael
The only similarity of Mara's style to Sidious is piercing strikes. But, if we compare her fights and his there is nothing similar.
We see Sidious utilizing pure lightsaber combat against Windu and company and Luke. With Yoda it was either lightsaber or Force attacks.
But Mara most of the time goes for body shots and starts grappling opponent. In fight with Alima Rar she finished her with punch in her throat (when Luke fought Lumya). With Lumya she dodged her whip and went for wrestling, headbutt into metal jaw was a fail though. big grin And with Caedus same thing. She crippled him with a kick into his knee and they ended up grappling.
In NJO, when Katarn was first mentioned, he was described as hand-to-hand combat expert. Maybe that's where the style difference comes from.
Considering that Mara trained together with Katarn, Corran Horn and Luke, she is a solid challenge for Sidious in combat with no offensive Force attacks.

Stea1th Moose

Battlemaster

Battlemaster
I noticed Palpy and Luke are similar in size, too.. Hm.

They short. stick out tongue


Edit: Yep, just checked - Luke is 5'7 and Palpatine is 5'8.

Never thought Palpatine is taller, hmm.

I guess because he's sort of hunched over, most of the time.

Stealth Moose
Wow, they're both tiny.

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by Battlemaster
In the Thrawn Trilogy, Mara states that she had held a lightsaber, perhaps a handful of times in her entire life, let alone use one.
She uses one extensively to the point where it's essentially her primary weapon (she even duels with Vader), in Allegiance, so at best the Thrawn trilogy, being 20 years old, would be overruled in this situation.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
She uses one extensively to the point where it's essentially her primary weapon (she even duels with Vader), in Allegiance, so at best the Thrawn trilogy, being 20 years old, would be overruled in this situation.


Well, that book is all one adventure, right?


There was a Canon short-story in the book Tales from the New Republic, in which Pre-Jedi Mara essentially has to infiltrate an underground criminal hideout, and the only weapon she realizes she can sneak in, is a lightsaber.

If I remember correctly, she conceals it in a vase and disguises herself, and then later in the story when she's been found out and mobbed by dozens of thugs, she breaks open the case, pulls the lightsaber out - and proceeds to kill them by the droves.

She also states in that story how little use or practice she had ever had with a lightsaber, and through talent and determination manages to still slaughter the groups of criminals.


So, I think the Thrawn Trilogy still holds - Mara is just highly talented with a lightsaber.

Which would make sense, given her later battles.


(Keep in mind, in the Thrawn Trilogy, she still managed to defeat Luke's Clone in a lightsaber duel)

Battlemaster
Also, keep in mind - when Mara dueled Jacen she had a reach disadvantage (and reach accounts for alot) when she used a Vibroblade and Shoto, whereas Jacen was wielding a full-length lightsaber.


Jacen had the reach-advantage there - and she still managed to close the distance with him, time and time again.

So she's got sick talent and adaptability.

ares834
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
She uses one extensively to the point where it's essentially her primary weapon (she even duels with Vader), in Allegiance, so at best the Thrawn trilogy, being 20 years old, would be overruled in this situation.

And in Choices of One she uses one as well and the narration remarks on her extraordinary skill. It seems Zahn has overwritten his previous work.

Arhael
It's not the pain threshold unique about Jacen, it is the ability to draw on it to amplify his power. So he is not just able to endure pain, he gets stronger from it.


Strength is rather moot point in this case.
Jacen was able to block furious strikes of angered Luke. And Luke in turn was grappling Abeloth on two occasions and even locked her in Apocalypse.
Jason was both stronger as man and more powerful in the Force than Mara, yet, he had as much trouble blocking her attacks as Luke's and, when it came to grappling, it was him on his shoulder blades, his superior power didn't give him enough strength to pull her onto his lightsaber.
Moreover, strength was never a deciding factor in combat, especialy in grappling.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by ares834
And in Choices of One she uses one as well and the narration remarks on her extraordinary skill. It seems Zahn has overwritten his previous work.


What's the direct quote? It could just be referring to her incredible talent.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Pwned
Yeah, Kyle may be good, but he's not great. All in all, you can compare him to Kenobi, just without the saber skills.


http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/3a570427.jpg
Kyle Katarn way back in Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II had power and swordsmanship on par with Kenobi, when he defeated a deadly Dark Jedi named Jerec, who had power that rivaled Vader's - and he defeated this man, after Jerec had become Empowered by the Valley of the Jedi.
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/118ab8fc.jpg
Flash forward 25+ years and thousands of deadly opponants later, including hundreds of deadly Dark Jedi (a Desann more powerful than the one Luke failed to defeat) and Sith Spirits, and you have a warrior more deeply-versed in the Jedi arts than most on the Council.
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/e4991c2a.jpg
His light skirmish with Caedus can't even be counted as a defeat, because Kyle had to focus on protecting the weaker and experienced Jedi with him and Kyle's mission was merely to use a diversion to plant a homing-device on Caedus.

Kyle was Mara Jade's greatest teacher - and they learned alot from each other (see: Mysteries of the Sith)
Kyle's Force abilities early on, could handle those of a Valley-empowered Jerec (whose destructive capabilities went beyond Vader's) and Kyle became adept in rare and powerful Force techniques such as Destruction (Mysteries of the Sith) and even rarer such as Spear of Midnight Black.

When he became the Temple Battlemaster, his lightsaber skills were constantly honed, and he would go on to instruct hundreds of students at the Temple.

In terms of swordsmanship, current Kyle is far beyond Kenobi, and his Force powers are likely somewhat stronger than Mara Jade's - all in all, he's about at DE Luke's level - if not somewhat stronger.



Originally posted by Pwned

However, I think that if Mara goes at this the same way she went after Caedus, she has a chance. Caedus just barely got that dart in time, and he is also physically stronger than Sidious. Does Mara get any prep time?



Zampano is correct here. Sidious does die.

His overall destructive abilities in the Force may be greater - but Mara is highly adaptive and able to close distance, allowing her to repel such attacks.

I think she beats him in a fight no closer than Sidious's earlier duel with Mace.

Lord Lucien
Are people still arguing that Desann "defeated" Luke?

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Are people still arguing that Desann "defeated" Luke?


The guy that wanted all the power of the Valley, and could exterminate Star Systems within a whisper with it? That Desann?

Yeah, he did. He defeated Luke.

- Unless Luke valued Desann's life, over that of the Universe.

Or, they could have been secretly lovers?

But yeah. Desann beat him.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Are people still arguing that Desann "defeated" Luke?

At least momentarally imo.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Battlemaster
The guy that wanted all the power of the Valley, and could exterminate Star Systems within a whisper with it? That Desann?Exterminate star-- whaaat?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yeah, he did. He defeated Luke.No, he fled from Luke.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
- Unless Luke valued Desann's life, over that of the Universe."The Universe"? Again--whaaaat?


Originally posted by Battlemaster
But yeah. Desann beat him. No, he ran away after failing to do Luke any harm.

Pwned
Plus, I am fairly certain most of that stuff about Kyle is non-canon, simply due to the fact that the Force Powers you can choose are never canon unless shown outside it. He uses Lightning, Grip, etc. But Destruction and that Spear one (I read it, forgot it, don't care to re-read just for the name) have not been shown without the player in control, or having picked that power previously.

Tell me, who was it that said that Jerec was equal to Vader? Because he isn't. Evar. And he hadn't absorbed the full power and was washed out because of it.


You obviously underestimate Kenobi, when you are the guy who is called THE master of a form, no equal at all, not even the 800 something year old Grand Master of the Jedi Order, then you have some crazy skills with a lightsaber.


Source where the rubble weighs tons?

You said earlier yourself Desann had not yet absorbed the power of the Valley, or he would be "eradicating star systems with a whisper"

Methinks you just think Kyle is hawt and want him to win.



I said Mara wins earlier, just FYI. She is gonna get beaten up pretty badly, but she wins.

Battlemaster

Arhael
It's not like I want to argue about Kyle vs Katarn. But nevertheless I will ones again point out at your lack of knowledge.

Luke fought Desann after he absorbed Valley of the Jedi, here is conversation between Luke and Kyle proving that:
3:00
DFaBbYywDqM

Also, he lost to Caedus not because he needed to look after others but because Caedus smashed airspeeder into his back.

Pwned
You know, one time I was playing, when that cutscene ran, Desann died. No joke.


However, its a bug. I just wanted to say so stick out tongue

Lord Lucien

Arhael

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Arhael
It's not like I want to argue about Kyle vs Katarn. But nevertheless I will ones again point out at your lack of knowledge.


LOL. Kyle vs Katarn?

Is that like Kramer vs Kramer? laughing

And I'd hate to point out your lack of knowledge (which is considerable) but I think you mean "once", not "ones". stick out tongue

They're phonetically similar, I know.




Originally posted by Arhael

Luke fought Desann after he absorbed Valley of the Jedi, here is conversation between Luke and Kyle proving that:
3:00
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Right - and Luke implies that Desann was too powerful to stop and that Kyle should not try to fight him alone.

So Luke fought Valley-Desann, and lost, again.




Originally posted by Arhael

Also, he lost to Caedus not because he needed to look after others but because Caedus smashed airspeeder into his back.


Nope - Kyle was looking out for the inexperienced Jedi in his group and was supposed to plant a tracking device on Caedus, that's all.
So he was just following a plan.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Right - and Luke implies that Desann was too powerful to stop and that Kyle should not try to fight him alone.

So Luke fought Valley-Desann, and lost, again. He told Kyle not to fight him alone. Are you spotting a problem here? Kyle is too weak to take on Desann, but less than a day later is killing an even more powerful Desann? Either Kyle is Goku, or Desann just isn't that powerful. Which would explain why Desann felt the need to sneak attack Luke and still run away from him.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So... you took a quote by Qu Rahn, about Jerec, and applied to what Desann likely wants. And used that as a basis of Desann's abilities as seen against Luke and Kyle?



Like Jerec, Desann didn't have time to absorb all of the Valley's Power.




Originally posted by Lord Lucien

And he had the founder and leader of the Jedi Knights literally under a pile of rubble in front him. And he ran away.

Either Desann's the most retarded being in the galaxy, or he was running away.



Yeah, being struck by falling piles of rubble tends to kill people. Luke got lucky, as we saw. stick out tongue




Originally posted by Lord Lucien

To learn about Desann? Yeah, for that I'll put in my copy of Jedi Outcast.


And Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II while you're at it. wink

That way you'll know what you're talking about when you try to argue with me. laughing





Originally posted by Lord Lucien

School him in lightsaber combat? Whaaat? Have you seen that little cutscene? It's randomly generated every time, but unless you like to count the game's mechanics of lightsabers slicing through bodies and not hurting them... then Desann did no schooling. He leaped from the catwalk, pushed Luke, brought the platform down, laughed, and ran. Instead of, say, being horribly crushed from a falling platform, Luke jumps over and shakes his head as Desann runs away. If your goal is to eliminate the Jedi, perhaps you should start with their leader whom you are literally fighting first. Unless of course, all your best efforts at surprise attack, lightsaber combat, Force pushing, and platform dropping fail.


- Yeah, to go to the Valley of the Jedi and become an omnipotent being.

The only person who failed was Luke - when he was too afraid to face Desann in a battle to the death - who could do untold things to the Universe if he absorbed all of the Valley's power.

It's like a little child playing Russian Roulette.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Pwned
Plus, I am fairly certain most of that stuff about Kyle is non-canon, simply due to the fact that the Force Powers you can choose are never canon unless shown outside it. He uses Lightning, Grip, etc. But Destruction and that Spear one (I read it, forgot it, don't care to re-read just for the name) have not been shown without the player in control, or having picked that power previously.



Powers used in cutscenes are Canon. Kyle used Destruction in Mysteries of the Sith and he used Spear of Midnight Black in the Dark Forces Novel.




Originally posted by Pwned

Tell me, who was it that said that Jerec was equal to Vader? Because he isn't. Evar. And he hadn't absorbed the full power and was washed out because of it.



Tell me, why haven't you done your research?

The Dark Forces II manual states it.



Originally posted by Pwned

You obviously underestimate Kenobi, when you are the guy who is called THE master of a form, no equal at all, not even the 800 something year old Grand Master of the Jedi Order, then you have some crazy skills with a lightsaber.


You obviously underestimate Katarn - go back up and read my post about that, again.


Originally posted by Pwned

Source where the rubble weighs tons?

Your eyes should be sufficient for the task.

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/74772f0e.jpg

Also, refer to the picture of Katarn holding it up.




Originally posted by Pwned

You said earlier yourself Desann had not yet absorbed the power of the Valley, or he would be "eradicating star systems with a whisper"
Methinks you just think Kyle is hawt and want him to win.



That's the danger - if Desann gets there and has his chance to absorb all the Power - it's game over for the Universe.



Originally posted by Pwned

I said Mara wins earlier, just FYI. She is gonna get beaten up pretty badly, but she wins.


Yup, she does. stick out tongue

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He told Kyle not to fight him alone. Are you spotting a problem here? Kyle is too weak to take on Desann, but less than a day later is killing an even more powerful Desann? Either Kyle is Goku, or Desann just isn't that powerful. Which would explain why Desann felt the need to sneak attack Luke and still run away from him.

No, Katarn was just developing fast, like he did against the 7 Dark Jedi (see: Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II) and while Luke couldn't handle Desann in a skirmish, and was too afraid to follow Desann - Kyle had progressed far enough to take Desann on and save the Universe.

Arhael
Originally posted by Battlemaster

Nope - Kyle was looking out for the inexperienced Jedi in his group and was supposed to plant a tracking device on Caedus, that's all.
So he was just following a plan.
No, he wasn't looking after anyone. If those Jedi needed to be looked after, they wouldn't be sent there. And you call Jedi that studied the Force and combat for over decade and participated in war are inexperienced? And Kyle wan't supposed to plant anything, there was another person for that purpose, he was supposed to fight Caedus and that's what he did.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Like Jerec, Desann didn't have time to absorb all of the Valley's Power.

Seriously? You say that after I gave you evidence that he absorbed it as well as countless other dark Jedi? Desann absorbed Valley before Luke fought him.

If you don't accept real evidence here is blatant statement from wookieepedia:
"Thinking that his partner was dead, Kyle thirsted for revenge and in consequence traveled to the Valley of the Jedi, to regain his connection to the Force; but Desann was tracking him. The Dark Jedi brought his band of Empire Youth students with him to absorb the Valley's power, forming an army of dark warriors called the Reborn. He also took with him a small portion of his stormtroopers, and they became shadowtroopers, Force-sensitive soldiers armed with lightsabers and encased in cortosis armor enhanced by Artusian crystals."

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Like Jerec, Desann didn't have time to absorb all of the Valley's Power. You know this? How?



Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yeah, being struck by falling piles of rubble tends to kill people. Luke got lucky, as we saw. stick out tongueApparently. So did Obi-Wan. Why didn't Desann kill the Jedi Knights' leader right then and there, if he was so superior?



Originally posted by Battlemaster
And Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II while you're at it. wink

That way you'll know what you're talking about when you try to argue with me. laughing You're kind of a dunce. Desann is not in Dark Forces, he's in Jedi Outcast. I'm arguing with you about Desann, so let's stick to his game. Remember: this is Desann. Not Jerec.





Originally posted by Battlemaster
- Yeah, to go to the Valley of the Jedi and become an omnipotent being.

The only person who failed was Luke - when he was too afraid to face Desann in a battle to the death - who could do untold things to the Universe if he absorbed all of the Valley's power.

It's like a little child playing Russian Roulette. So... Luke single handedly scatters Desann and his Reborn forces... Desann flees. And Luke is "afraid"?

Later, Desann ambushed Luke (the leader of the Jedi Knights--the people he's intent on wiping out), and runs away after a failed attempt to kill him. And Desann is more powerful? The same Desann who had less than year's training under Luke and Hethrir, who had full access to the Valley, who (along with all his minions) was routed by Luke alone... this is the same Desann who's more powerful than Luke? The same Luke whom he never defeated, and whom he ran away from?

Twice?

Pwned
Not to mention Desann had enough time to make an army. Why would he need an army if he could become all powerful? Simple answer: He can't.

You never answered my question. Give me a source. You always want a specific statement of things, instead of common sense or other things.


Also, prove Kyle could use those powers after he lost his connection to the Force. He lost all knowledge of how to use it somehow, and so he had to learn it all again.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You know this? How?


More like, how do you not know this? stick out tongue

Seriously, play Dark Forces II - it's a fun game. wink




Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Apparently. So did Obi-Wan. Why didn't Desann kill the Jedi Knights' leader right then and there, if he was so superior?



Probably because he thought the heavy rubble had kind of, you know, crushed him?

Why didn't Luke just knock Desann out mercifully with his TK, if he's so superior?




Originally posted by Lord Lucien

You're kind of a dunce. Desann is not in Dark Forces, he's in Jedi Outcast. I'm arguing with you about Desann, so let's stick to his game. Remember: this is Desann. Not Jerec.


I'm a dunce? laughing

You're trying to argue with me about material, the most important of which is located within a game I've played and you haven't, so you keep asking dumb questions, leading me further and further to believe an argument with you, uneducated, at this point would be pointless.

If you weren't such a dunce, you'd pay attention to the fact that Jerec and Desann both sought the same thing, and were both empowered by the Valley of the Jedi. So in that aspect, they have much relevance with each other.

I say, you go play that game (Dark Forces II) and perhaps read the novel, and then come back and try to argue with me. big grin





Originally posted by Lord Lucien

So... Luke single handedly scatters Desann and his Reborn forces... Desann flees. And Luke is "afraid"?



"Scatters" not kills - and you notice Luke gets away without stopping, capturing or killing Desann - Yeah, he was afraid and cautious - just like he told Kyle to be.



Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Later, Desann ambushed Luke (the leader of the Jedi Knights--the people he's intent on wiping out), and runs away after a failed attempt to kill him. And Desann is more powerful? The same Desann who had less than year's training under Luke and Hethrir,



Yeah, and deflected Luke's attacks, trashed him, and left to claim his prize at the Valley



Originally posted by Lord Lucien

who had full access to the Valley


But didn't absorb all it's power, yet.



Originally posted by Lord Lucien

, who (along with all his minions) was routed by Luke alone...


"Routed"? He was alive and fully healthy to face his true opponant at the end of the game.

We didn't see Luke fight Desann or his minions - just Luke talking out of his ass about it.





Originally posted by Lord Lucien

this is the same Desann who's more powerful than Luke? The same Luke whom Desann defeated twice, and whom he ran away from after trashing Luke under a pile of rubble that usually kills people?

Fixed. happy

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Pwned
Not to mention Desann had enough time to make an army. Why would he need an army if he could become all powerful? Simple answer: He can't.


Jedi Master Qu Rahn says differently. wink

Also, at the time he was devoted to Hethrir's cause, and would need an army to keep the New Republic forces at bay to buy him time to finish absorbing the Valley's power.




Originally posted by Pwned

You never answered my question. Give me a source. You always want a specific statement of things, instead of common sense or other things.


Use the little white orbs in your head and look at the pictures.

And the only Debators around here who give me common sense replies for their arguments are Nephthys and Stealth Moose.




Originally posted by Pwned

Also, prove Kyle could use those powers after he lost his connection to the Force. He lost all knowledge of how to use it somehow, and so he had to learn it all again.


Not knowledge - his connection with it just lapsed.

Those powers are techniques, so he would still have them after he regained his connection.

Pwned
Wrong. He, at the brink of the dark side, would have used them. Your logic is flawed.



He had time to absorb it. Don't say differently, because he did. He empowered a friggin army. And if you are all powerful, you don't need an army. Meaning Qu Rahn was either wrong or exaggerating. In universe sources are flawed, and such statements can't be taken as absolute, irrevocable truth due to their unreliability.

Seriously, Lucien has a point, you insult people, but you tend to fit the insults better than other people. You do nothing but, "Oh no, thats not what happened because of a game this character was not even in. Oh, and being under rubble but unharmed is a loss. LULZ"

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Battlemaster
More like, how do you not know this? stick out tongue

Seriously, play Dark Forces II - it's a fun game. wink *sigh*

Okay... I'm giving this one more go.


How do you know Desann couldn't absorb all the Valley's power? How do you know Desann hadn't already basked in the Valley's power? And how do you know Luke didn't do to him what Kyle did to Jerec? Actually answer this time.



Originally posted by Battlemaster
Probably because he thought the heavy rubble had kind of, you know, crushed him?

Why didn't Luke just knock Desann out mercifully with his TK, if he's so superior? So... Desann is powerful enough to defeat Luke in combat, but so weak as to not be able to sense that Luke is alive and perfectly well? And if he could sense him alive, why didn't he finish him off? Give me an answer--besides the obvious 'he couldn't defeat Luke so he ran'.







Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'm a dunce? laughing

You're trying to argue with me about material, the most important of which is located within a game I've played and you haven't, so you keep asking dumb questions, leading me further and further to believe an argument with you, uneducated, at this point would be pointless.

If you weren't such a dunce, you'd pay attention to the fact that Jerec and Desann both sought the same thing, and were both empowered by the Valley of the Jedi. So in that aspect, they have much relevance with each other.

I say, you go play that game (Dark Forces II) and perhaps read the novel, and then come back and try to argue with me. big grin Thank you for contradicting yourself: "Jerec and Desann... both empowered by the Valley of the Jedi." So both Jerec and Desann were empowered by the Valley, and both were defeated by Kyle and Luke, respectively.





Originally posted by Battlemaster
"Scatters" not kills - and you notice Luke gets away without stopping, capturing or killing Desann - Yeah, he was afraid and cautious - just like he told Kyle to be.So... Desann and minions are in control of the Valley, empowered by it. And Luke--by himself, is enough to scatter them.

But then... when Desann is away from the Valley, he is suddenly able to "defeat" Luke?





Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yeah, and deflected Luke's attacks, trashed him, and left to claim his prize at the Valley*sigh*


Please try to keep up. After Desann ran from Luke, he did not go to "claim his prize at the Valley." He ran to the Doomgiver and left for the Jedi Praxeum. If you're not aware, the Valley is on Ruusan, and the Praxeum is on Yavin IV. Which doesn't change the fact that he ran away from the leader of the organization he was bent on wiping out. That's either a contradiction in character motive, or an inferiority in power.





Originally posted by Battlemaster
But didn't absorb all it's power, yet.Prove it.






Originally posted by Battlemaster
"Routed"? He was alive and fully healthy to face his true opponant at the end of the game.

We didn't see Luke fight Desann or his minions - just Luke talking out of his ass about it.Which incidentally is exactly what you're doing by claiming that Desann "scared" Luke on Ruusan, despite him and his Reborn being scattered by him. I'm more inclined to belive the game's character than I am you.


Originally posted by Lord Lucien as amended by Battlemaster
this is the same Desann who's more powerful than Luke? The same Luke whom Desann defeated twice, and whom he ran away from after trashing Luke under a pile of rubble that usually kills people?


Okay... I already know your position on Desann "defeating" Luke at Lenico. But how are you coming to the conclusion that Luke lost to him at Ruusan? He and his forces were scattered... so you translate that to Desann defeat Luke?

*sigh*

A.) You're demonstrably making stuff up--talking out of your ass, as you put it.
B.) Even if that were canon, that still means Desann is retarded--defeating your enemy, leaving him alive, abandoning your source of power. That's retarded.



And you're a dunce.

Arhael
Katarn watched the duel from inside Doomgiver. Ones Desann ran away, ship started departing and Desann boarded it. So what Luke was afraid about? Kyle reached Desann first because they were in the same ship, not because Luke was afraid.

And you know this how? Considering the amount of empowered by the Valley dark Jedi and shadow troopers in the game, it's clear that he had plenty of time.

He ran away and boarder Doomgiver, which was heading to Yavin IV, not to Valley of the Jedi, which was located at Ruusan.

Check this out. It's advisable before you give out more nonsense.
ubacDUij01Y
On the video Luke essentially claims that he drove Desann and his crew away from the Valley of the Jedi.
We have no idea how many troops Desann managed to empower before we got there. It good be dozens but it could be thousands... - This is prove that Desann had enough time not only to absorb the power himself but to empower a lot of others.

Here is video of their duel and Luke's conversation with Kyle after:
BtcWqqSxBOI
Luke says that he was attacked by surprise: "I never felt him coming". And that "He's escaped onto a ship".
"We need to destroy the ship before Desann and his army reaches its target... whatever it is."
Luke never tasked Kyle to handle Desann personally. Luke didn't know, where the ship was heading. In fact it was heading to Yavin IV. Kyle was there before Luke and that's why it was him, who defeated Desann.

Lord Lucien
I like how even Luke described it as an "escape". I've never heard of someone escaping from their victory. Unless of course they were retarded. Or never had a victory.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I like how even Luke described it as an "escape".


I did too. I also liked how Luke waited until Desann was gone, to throw the debris off of himself. stick out tongue

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Pwned
Wrong. He, at the brink of the dark side, would have used them. Your logic is flawed.



Ah, but he learned to overcome the Dark side through the course of his adventure. wink




Originally posted by Pwned

He had time to absorb it. Don't say differently, because he did. He empowered a friggin army. And if you are all powerful, you don't need an army.


If you play through the previous game you'll see it doesn't take a long time to empower someone with a fraction of the Valley's Power.
However, absorbing all of it takes some time.

This situation would be akin to a madman leading a group and finding the location of a secret weapons cache.

It consists of a weapons stockpile of rocket-launchers with small tactical nukes - and a fully-sealed bunker with the codes to launch every nuclear silo in the world with total control - and within an impenetrable bunker.

The catch is - the weapons room doesn't take long to open via code, so he can open that room relatively quickly and pass around weapons - but getting into the Bunker will take some time - but once he gets in, he's in a self-sufficient, completely impenetrable room and can destroy the entire world if he desires.

Essentially - any Hero even allowing the madman to make it that far is essentially dooming every lifeform on the planet.
Even following that madman to the location of the site and not capturing or killing him, is a total failure and can lead to the destruction of all life.

Anyway, it doesn't take that long to be given a fraction of the Valley's Power - but getting the whole thing does take some time.




Originally posted by Pwned

Meaning Qu Rahn was either wrong or exaggerating. In universe sources are flawed, and such statements can't be taken as absolute, irrevocable truth due to their unreliability.



If Rahn was wrong or exaggerating, there would have been no need for the Jedi Master to die desperately trying to keep it's existence secret from Jerec.

He appeared to Katarn in a Force dream, warning him emphatically that if Jerec was allowed to absorb all of the Valley's Power, the power to create supernovas in a whisper would be within his power, and in the novelization he says "think planet's out of existence".

So basically, if the Valley of the Jedi was just a wothless piece of real estate, you wouldn't have games and a story built around it.

I can tell you very likely haven't played either game, so I'd recommend going out and buying them both and spending some good time beating them - they're worth it! wink

(Also, read the novel, it's good!)







Originally posted by Pwned

Seriously, Lucien has a point, you insult people,



I think of it as being descriptive, really. cool






Originally posted by Pwned

but you tend to fit the insults better than other people.

That's gold - I'm writing it down. laughing



Originally posted by Pwned

You do nothing but, "Oh no, thats not what happened because of a game this character was not even in.



Yeah, it's called actually knowing the material, whereas you and Lucy haven't even played the game yet, and you're trying to make judgement calls on things you don't even know.
I'd call that stupidity in a basic sense, yeah. stick out tongue







Originally posted by Pwned

Oh, and being under rubble but unharmed is a loss. LULZ"


I didn't see Desann under any rubble. wink


And Luke let Desann leave to attain omnipotent power. Fail.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
*sigh*

Okay... I'm giving this one more go.


That's fine - I'll always be here for you. kisss




Originally posted by Lord Lucien

How do you know Desann couldn't absorb all the Valley's power? How do you know Desann hadn't already basked in the Valley's power?



There's a difference between basking in the Valley's power, and absorbing it all.

Jerec basked in the Valley's power (Read the novel/play the game - it points it out) but he didn't absorb all it's power the way Rahn warned Kyle about.




Originally posted by Lord Lucien

And how do you know Luke didn't do to him what Kyle did to Jerec? Actually answer this time.


Does the Outcast game specify Luke did?




Originally posted by Lord Lucien

So... Desann is powerful enough to defeat Luke in combat, but so weak as to not be able to sense that Luke is alive and perfectly well? And if he could sense him alive, why didn't he finish him off? Give me an answer--besides the obvious 'he couldn't defeat Luke so he ran'.




Boy, all of what you just said makes me think of Anakin and Obi-wan for some reason.

Remember that scene where Anakin and Obi-wan are on the Invisible Hand and Anakin drops down into the elevator where Obi-wan was waiting for him, and Obi-wan suddenly ignites his lightsaber, despite the fact that Anakin wasn't that far away from him, and the two have always had such intimate contact with each other?

Obi-wan's a powerful Jedi Master, and Anakin wasn't very far away - so why was Obi-wan seemingly surprised and didn't feel him before?

And what about Qui-gon Jinn and Maul?

Maul stabs Jinn through his torso (which normally kills people) and Jinn drops, still alive. Why didn't Maul finish him off?

They're perfectly good questions.

Hell, maybe Luke hid his Force signature into tricking Desann think he was dead.






Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Thank you for pointing out my mistakes: "Jerec and Desann... both empowered by the Valley of the Jedi." So both Jerec and Desann were empowered by the Valley, and both were defeated by Kyle and Kyle, respectively.


No, thank You for making yourself into such a jovially mood-inducing idiot. I was having a grey day, until I read your posts.

Oh, and fixed, btw. stick out tongue



Originally posted by Lord Lucien

So... Desann and minions are in control of the Valley, empowered by it. And Luke--by himself, is enough to scatter them.


- Which does nothing.

Hordes of Desann's Jedi are still alive and Desann is perfectly healthy and alive.

It's like swatting at a Bee's Nest - without actually destroying the Hive, or taking out the Queen - useless.




Originally posted by Lord Lucien

But then... when Desann is away from the Valley, he is suddenly able to "defeat" Luke?


Being close to, or far away from the Valley doesn't affect a person who absorbed it's power.

You're confusing it's function with a Dark side Nexus, which needs the individual to be localized on or near it for empowerment.

The Valley itself is more like a huge battery. It powers individuals with it's energy, and they can leave the planet and still have all the energy stored within them.

Again, read the novel or play the DFII game.





Originally posted by Lord Lucien

*sigh*
Please try to keep up. After Desann ran from Luke, he did not go to "claim his prize at the Valley." He ran to the Doomgiver and left for the Jedi Praxeum. If you're not aware, the Valley is on Ruusan, and the Praxeum is on Yavin IV.


laughing



Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Which doesn't change the fact that he ran away from the leader of the organization he was bent on wiping out. That's either a contradiction in character motive, or an inferiority in power.


How about why didn't Luke defeat him by disarming him without killing him, or using his power to just knock Desann out?

No one seems to have an answer for that one. wink



Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Prove it.


I didn't see him busting any Star Systems, did you?





Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Which incidentally is exactly what you're doing by claiming that Desann "scared" Luke on Ruusan, despite him and his Reborn being scattered by him. I'm more inclined to belive the game's character than I am you.


How will I ever sleep tonight?



Originally posted by Lord Lucien

Okay... I already know your position on Desann "defeating" Luke at Lenico. But how are you coming to the conclusion that Luke lost to him at Ruusan? He and his forces were scattered... so you translate that to Desann defeat Luke?


Yeah - pretty much. "Scattering" someone's forces by not killing most (if any) of them and failing to even hurt or capture Desann, is pathetic.

He should have come crawling back to Kyle with a better excuse than that.



Originally posted by Lord Lucien

*sigh*

A.) You're demonstrably making stuff up--talking out of your ass, as you put it.

I'm just trying to be like You!

Can't I idolize a Debator?

Hell, I think I'm doing a pretty good job - considering you haven't played a game/read a book highly relevant to this subject, and you're either ignorant of the facts I know and asking pointless questions, or just assuming things, yourself.

We already know how fishy it was that Luke decides to pass up a chance to incapacitate or capture Desann (not kill) despite the fact the guy best-case scenario was going to build a Second Imperium and reconquer worlds - worst-case scenario and probably most likely, take all of the Valley's power, decide Hethrir isn't that useful to him - and just go on a vengeful killing-spree on the Universe that shunned him.

Count Dooku in AotC was notably more experienced than Anakin and instead of killing him disarmed him (somewhat literally) and maimed him to the floor.

Boom. Done. Non-evil way of taking out an extreme foe - and the fight is done, and your foe is alive.

If, if the power gap between Desann and Luke were like that, which is what you're implying, then Luke should have just been able to do that.

But he couldn't - he failed there, he failed on Ruusan - and it was up to Kyle to save the Universe.

How about we just give that handsome bearded-bastard his accolades?

Luke was cute in the post-RotJ Era before, NJO, I know. But seriously, he failed here - and Katarn deserves Kudos.

Deserves Kudos.

Where's his Kudos, Lucien? Where's his Kudos?





Originally posted by Lord Lucien

B.) Even if that were canon, that still means Desann is retarded--defeating your enemy, leaving him alive, abandoning your source of power. That's retarded.


He likely thought Luke was dead, considering that Obi-wan wasn't able to sense a very alive and healthy Anakin a few yards up in an elevator shaft.

Force users aren't perpetually omnipotent, as is apparent sometimes.




Originally posted by Lord Lucien

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/4fc060c7.jpg


laughing

Xendor_Lives
This is nothing new. Luke is nearly butchered by Lumiya in LOTF, despite the fact that Tresina Lobi, who contends with Coleman Trebor in the contest of virtual Jedi nobody, managed to take on Lumiya and Alema Rar simultaneously and nearly killed both. Would you argue that she could hand Luke his ass, too?

Between the points Lucien raised, the consistent trait Luke displays in terms of his reluctance to utilize the full brunt of his powers in combat, and the fact that Kyle is not known to possess either Luke's raw power in the Force or years of Jedi training (and yet somehow beats Desann), it's pretty obvious that Desann can't take JA!Luke.

Pwned
I have actually beaten both game. You just are not replying to what I say in a fashion that inspires me to say something else.

Such as: Hyperspace travel takes days, even weeks. Kyle arrived at the Valley shortly after Jerec, not giving him much time. We don't know the amount of time Desann had, but by all rights, he had time to get the power. Especially with an army. But Luke beat them off.

Qu Rahn would have died stopping a powerful dark side user from attaining more power when the Jedi were still very weak, yes, of COURSE he urged Kyle to stop him.

You need to realize one thing: Desann did NOT beat Luke. Burying him under rubble then running away is a win as much as Dooku threw the pillar at Kenobi and Skywalker then ran from Yoda.

Arhael
You actually don't know material yourself.


Indeed fail. This is the prove that you don't know the material and don't even review the evidence provided by others.
Luke fought Desann after he and his minions absorbed the power of the Valley. And Desann didn't leave to attain any power whatsoever, he left to attack Jedi Academy at Yavin IV.
Read wookeepedia at least, your ignorance is omnipotent.

Lord Lucien
I tried. If there was a silver lining to Rudy, it was that he was a great example of why not to persist with supposing fools. I actually would suggest that Battlemaster IS Rudy, if not for her (his?) join date.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Xendor_Lives
This is nothing new. Luke is nearly butchered by Lumiya in LOTF, despite the fact that Tresina Lobi, who contends with Coleman Trebor in the contest of virtual Jedi nobody, managed to take on Lumiya and Alema Rar simultaneously and nearly killed both. Would you argue that she could hand Luke his ass, too?

Between the points Lucien raised, the consistent trait Luke displays in terms of his reluctance to utilize the full brunt of his powers in combat, and the fact that Kyle is not known to possess either Luke's raw power in the Force or years of Jedi training (and yet somehow beats Desann), it's pretty obvious that Desann can't take JA!Luke.


Valid points, my young friend. Desann could have gotten very lucky when fighting Luke.



Originally posted by Pwned
You need to realize one thing: Desann did NOT beat Luke. Burying him under rubble then running away is a win as much as Dooku threw the pillar at Kenobi and Skywalker then ran from Yoda.


That's probably the only point in your post that is grounded at least half-way in reality.

As it stands, either Desann got really lucky, or Stealth Moose is very correct about Luke essentially having a good streak of luck, himself, prior to the events of NJO, when he pretty much won fights straight-up.

One thing is for sure - just as Bloolusted Peak-Mara can clash with RotS Sidious and take him down - Peak Kyle can, too. And probably have a slightly easier time at it.

Kudos for Kyle.

Luke at this time was still cuter than Kyle, though - so he definitely has him beat in the looks-department. wink

ares834
Leaving the Mara defeating Sidious debate aside, Mara was far more impressive in LotF than Kyle...

Arhael
I see how you like Kyle. But Mara is stronger, than Kyle. She fought darkside Kyle on darkside nexus, fended off all his attacks and ultimately brought him back to the lightside. And she was not in her full potential at that point as later she came to Luke's academy to refine her Jedi skills farther.

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by ares834
Leaving the Mara defeating Sidious debate aside, Mara was far more impressive in LotF than Kyle... Kyle hasn't really been impressive at all outside of his own games, nor has Kyp outside of the JLA series.

I feel like the authors don't really know what to do with either of them.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Kyle hasn't really been impressive at all outside of his own games, nor has Kyp outside of the JLA series.

I feel like the authors don't really know what to do with either of them.

I know what you mean.

During the NJO series at least, Kyp faced off against three Vong Slayers in combat, when they attacked Kyp, Han and Leia and tried to capture them.

Han was firing shots off at one of them, which kind of kept it busy, while the other two attacked Kyp.

When Kyp attacked one with his lightsaber, the Slayer deflected his swings, and as Kyp Force-leaped - the amphistaff of one of the Slayers caught Kyp's foot and slammed him down into the ground, hard.

They literally beat the shit out of him after that. erm


Kyle Katarn also fought numerous Vong Elites and Slayers, but he didn't have any problems with them.

So we know at least from NJO (though I'm sure I'm missing other occasions where Kyle kicked ass in the series) that Kyle during his latter years was an utter bad ass with a lightsaber, and killed many-a-foe.

Whereas Kyp was seriously lacking in saber skills - though in raw Force power, he's still a Titan.

Arhael
Which book? I don't remember a single example of him fighting Vong in NJO. I am sure you are making stuff up. Again.

Arhael
Edit: Slayer's first and the only appearance is in Unifying Force, where they fought in combat only Kyp and Leia and later Luke and twins. Indeed, you make stuff up. Again.

Nephthys
Busted.

Zampanó
love

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Arhael
Which book? I don't remember a single example of him fighting Vong in NJO. I am sure you are making stuff up. Agaim.
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/82bcd85b.jpg





Kyle killed scores of Yuuzan Vong Elites on Ord Sedra - liberating the world from the Vong.





Originally posted by Arhael
Edit: Slayer's first and the only appearance is in Unifying Force, where they fought in combat only Kyp and Leia and later Luke and twins. Indeed, you make stuff up. Agaib.

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/ee689a7b.jpghttp://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/5886a48f.jpg

I didn't know Equals and Opposites, was a figment of my own imagination. Thanks, 'Tard. stick out tongue



It's been a while since I read NJO so I forgot that bit about the Slayers, but considering NJO Kyle is easily on par with NJO Jacen, Peak Kyle could definitely destroy a trio of Slayers, whereas Kyp could not.

Now hurry up and get to Pre-school before you're late! wink

(And don't forget your lunchbox)

Arhael
Trio of slayers? That's a big maybe.

ares834
How is he easily on par with NJO Jacen?

Nephthys
That art is so bad.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by ares834
How is he easily on par with NJO Jacen?


If he can take out Sidious like Mara can, and like many believe his NJO incarnation can, then he is easily on par with NJO Jacen.

It took Jacen years and years (Beyond NJO) to get to the point where he could challenge Sidious the way a NJO Kyle could.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Nephthys
That art is so bad.


Well, I kind of like it.

It is cool to see Kyle in more comics.. :3

ares834
Originally posted by Battlemaster
If he can take out Sidious like Mara can, and like many believe his NJO incarnation can, then he is easily on par with NJO Jacen.

It took Jacen years and years (Beyond NJO) to get to the point where he could challenge Sidious the way a NJO Kyle could.

Um. Where do you get the idea that Kyle Katarn can challenge Sidious?

Nephthys
That link to a thread from 6 years ago.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Nephthys
That link to a thread from 6 years ago.


Yah.

It gives a bit of insight into the minds of posters here, though.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
That link to a thread from 6 years ago.

Ah, seems like a reliable source.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by ares834
Ah, seems like a reliable source.

No more or less reliable than yours.

You are, like they, a KMC Debator.

Battlemaster
*Epic music*

Nephthys
Sorry to break it to you, but they were wrong. no expression

Nephthys
Originally posted by Gideon
Kyle would win. Palpatine, by Revenge of the Sith, was thirteen years out of practice - and relied heavily on his Force powers in a lot of cases. This wouldn't be an easy fight, as Kyle isn't certainly that far above Mace Windu or Yoda (if he is at all). But, for some reason (the ones that Advent has supplied) I am inclined to say that he would win.

Having said that -

Advent, there is some proof to support the theory that Palpatine at least intended for Anakin to show up - whether or not he lost the fight intentionally remains to be seen.

Consider that Yoda, Palpatine's equal in the Force, was able to sense the deaths of the Jedi Masters when he was on Kashyyk, fighting against the Confederacy. In Attack of the Clones, Yoda also sensed when Anakin cut down the Tusken Raiders in retaliation for killing his mother.

Who's to say that Palpatine, who is firmly in touch with Anakin's emotions, wouldn't be able to feel the same thing - when they are on the same planet? Furthermore, this is supported when Palpatine contacts Anakin - via some sort of Force telepathy and says:

"You know, don't you, that if I die - any chance of saving her is lost."

Add in the factor that Palpatine is the supreme manipulator, it is easily possible.

And, as for the events in Return of the Jedi, Palpatine's ability to sense currents in the Force was beginning to diminish. Vader was still quite a bit weaker than him in the Force, but was able to sense Luke's presence on Endor where Palpatine couldn't.

Ironically, Palpatine was facing a smaller version of what Yoda and Mace were in the PT. However, he could still use the Force to predict things that Vader and Yoda couldn't, as he knew that Luke would turn himself over to Vader - and that Vader would bring Luke before him.

And, with Jerec, Jerec obviously can't use his ability to remove the Force from people against anybody. He was unable to use it against Kyle. Also, Palpatine cut Jerec off from Dark Side teachings - and given Jerec's ambition and cruelty - if he could use that power on someone who is more powerful than him, like Palpatine, he would have done so.

Which leads me to believe that he can only use it on people on par or weaker than himself.

Anyways, Kyle wins. But it's not an easy fight.

I legitimately lol'd.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sorry to break it to you, but they were wrong. no expression


Well it seems like a reasonable viewpoint.

Considering everything Kyle has been through, and that he's likely equal with his student, Mara Jade, or slightly better in some areas (TK comes to mind).

I agree with Zampano that a Peak and bloodlusted Mara could kill Sidious, and I also understand that a Peak Kyle could do the same.

Nephthys
Mara can only maybe contend with Sidious in very certain circumstances. She's nowhere near him in the Force or lightsaber and in a straight fight he would wreck her.

Likewise, Katarn got completely punked by Caedus. He is powerful, but not as much as you or the fossils in that thread believe.

Battlemaster
Well, it looks like Darth Plagueis won his fight against Exar Kun. stick out tongue

Time for his final opponent.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Nephthys
Mara can only maybe contend with Sidious in very certain circumstances. She's nowhere near him in the Force or lightsaber and in a straight fight he would wreck her.

Likewise, Katarn got completely punked by Caedus. He is powerful, but not as much as you or the fossils in that thread believe.

Well, we have a difference in opinion; but I certainly Respect yours.

Battlemaster
We can at least agree that Katarn is more handsome than Sidious! laughing

Nephthys
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Well, we have a difference in opinion; but I certainly Respect yours.

Only because you cannot challenge it, peon. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/custom_avatars/avatar112141_19.gif

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Nephthys
Only because you cannot challenge it, peon. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/custom_avatars/avatar112141_19.gif


laughing

You know, you actually remind me of Lelouch.

Nephthys
Hehe, thats what I was going for.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Nephthys
Hehe, thats what I was going for.


I know. wink

Darth Ray Park
Battlemaster,

God doesn't hate you because you're a fool.

You're a fool because God hates you.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/82bcd85b.jpg





Kyle killed scores of Yuuzan Vong Elites on Ord Sedra - liberating the world from the Vong.







http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/ee689a7b.jpghttp://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/5886a48f.jpg

I didn't know Equals and Opposites, was a figment of my own imagination. Thanks, 'Tard. stick out tongue



It's been a while since I read NJO so I forgot that bit about the Slayers, but considering NJO Kyle is easily on par with NJO Jacen, Peak Kyle could definitely destroy a trio of Slayers, whereas Kyp could not.

Now hurry up and get to Pre-school before you're late! wink

(And don't forget your lunchbox)

So Arhael was right then and what you said about slayers you was making up.

Battlemaster
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/aa0f8c31.jpg

It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your profoundly-Retarded friend, are now mine. laughing

Arhael
Originally posted by Battlemaster

It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your profoundly-Retarded friend, are now mine. laughing
Nah, you can't have both of us at the same time. I am not singing up for a sandwich.

Zampanó
How about a train?

Arhael
Only as observer.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Arhael
I am not singing up for a sandwich.


What about if your boyfriend, Ray, wanted to sing with you?

Would you sing then? laughing

Arhael
By the way, out of curiosity I read the fight of Luke and twins with Slayers. They used battle-meld on such level that they acted like single entity, so there is sort of Force harmony was involved. Also, Luke experienced state of oneness. That can be a reasonable explanation of why most of those Slayers were slain by him. In normal circumstances I think even three slayers would be too challenging for Luke.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Arhael
By the way, out of curiosity I read the fight of Luke and twins with Slayers. They used battle-meld on such level that they acted like single entity, so there is sort of Force harmony was involved. Also, Luke experienced state of oneness. That can be a reasonable explanation of why most of those Slayers were slain by him. In normal circumstances I think even three slayers would be too challenging for Luke.

Nah.

These modified warriors were so powerful that even Kyp Durron wasn't able to defeat one of them on Caluula, but the three Jedi proved that the Force was with them that day and were able to defeat several.

I have the book somewhere and it's been a while since I've read it, but I remember Jacen and Luke killing at least, 3 Slayer's, each.

Jacen wasn't One with the Force yet at that point, and he still cut down three Slayers with difficulty - something Kyp couldn't even do with one.

And this wasn't the powerful experienced version of Jacen (Caedus) that would come later.

I know NJO Kyle was at least as powerful as this fledgling learner.

Darth Ray Park
Originally posted by Battlemaster
I know NJO Kyle was at least as powerful as this fledgling learner.

Prove it.

Arhael
I mean they used battle-meld, which made them mutually stronger. I can't provide quotes as my book is in Hindi. big grin
Luke actually killed the most Salyers. There was 15 total of Slayers. Luke was described killing 8, Jacen 2 and Jaina 1, how other 4 died is unknown.
Also, Luke specifically achieved state of perfect calm, while fighting other Vong. So he had sort of preparation and warm up time.
What I mean is that, if there was no battle-meld and Luke didn't achieve state of oneness while killing countless other Vong prior to Slayers, I doubt that he would be able to handle even three slayers himself as easily.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Prove it.

Already have. cool

You'll have to check the previous posts on Le thread. They're already there.

Battlemaster
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/3b168775.jpg

ares834
ABC logic much?

Battlemaster
From Invincible:
For Caedus is a scion of both the Skywalker and Solo bloodlines whose command of the Force surpasses even that of his grandfather Darth Vader.

(Also said to be referenced by Luke specifically in the book)

So basically, Empowered-Jerec's power level is equal to Jacen, later in the series.

And Kyle defeated him when he was just a Neophyte.

Add 20 more years of development, and you still have someone equal to Vader (=NJO Jacen) or more powerful.


If you do the math, he should be more powerful.

But a conservative estimate, is just saying he's equal.

ares834
Yes, which fails in this case.

Consider:

Anakin>Dooku

Obi-Wan>Anakin

So...

Obi-Wan>Dooku(?)

Nope, it fails. ABC logic doesn't take into account other factors in fights.

Nephthys
Is a blurb canon? IIRC there have been other fallible statements made by blurbs.

I'd also like to see where you get the idea that Jerec is as powerful as Jacen, as well as where its implied that Jacen wasn't more powerful than Vader prior to becoming Darth Caedus.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by ares834
ABC logic much?

Plus, not being mean - but I did have to explain to you in the past that Emerald Force Lightning was the lightside variation of lightning.

Before I helped you understand that, we were arguing about it for a time.

Just do research and math, and you'll get the results you need.

ares834
I wouldn't say so. Still I'd put Caedus above Vader.

ares834
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Plus, not being mean - but I did have to explain to you in the past that Emerald Force Lightning was the lightside variation of lightning.

Before I helped you understand that, we were arguing about it for a time.

Just do research and math, and you'll get the results you need.

confused

I said Emerald "lightning" (notice the quotes), what Luke uses in the NJO books, didn't appear to be a form of force lightning. Hell, I'm still waiting for proof that it is.

Also lol at your failed attempt at poisoning the well.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by ares834
Yes, which fails in this case.

Consider:

Anakin>Dooku

Obi-Wan>Vader

So...

Your understanding fails. Do more research.



Fixed.


Originally posted by ares834

Nope, it fails. ABC logic doesn't take into account other factors in fights.

Your lack of understanding is what fails.

Their swordsmanship is reasonably equal as well (NJO Kyle and Jacen)

If Kyle weren't the Temple Battlemaster (which I hope you know is a lightsaber Instructor) then that wouldn't be feasible, but considering Kyle's experience, skill and the similar ease in which he decimated his opponants, it's very reasonable to conclude their swordsmanship is on par.

Battlemaster
Originally posted by ares834
confused

I said Emerald "lightning" (notice the quotes), what Luke uses in the NJO books, didn't appear to be a form of force lightning. Hell, I'm still waiting for proof that it is.

Also lol at your failed attempt at poisoning the well.


I'm pretty sure everyone here understands that it is.

My point is, that you aren't as well-immersed in the material as I am, and I've had to explain things to you in the past before.

You simply need to do more research with this.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Your lack of understanding is what fails.

Their swordsmanship is reasonably equal as well (NJO Kyle and Jacen)

If Kyle weren't the Temple Battlemaster (which I hope you know is a lightsaber Instructor) then that wouldn't be feasible, but considering Kyle's experience, skill and the similar ease in which he decimated his opponants, it's very reasonable to conclude their swordsmanship is on par.

Despite the fact that Jacen casually pwned him and 2 others while wounded a few years later?

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Nephthys
Is a blurb canon? IIRC there have been other fallible statements made by blurbs.


Supposedly Luke says that Caedus has become superior to Vader in the book.




Originally posted by Nephthys

I'd also like to see where you get the idea that Jerec is as powerful as Jacen, as well as where its implied that Jacen wasn't more powerful than Vader prior to becoming Darth Caedus.

I actually have business to get to, but I'll get back to you with some more answers, sorry.

The math is kind of buried in Einstein's chalkboard up there; if you look hard enough you'll see where it fits together.

Have a good night.

ares834
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Fixed.

Vader is Anakin

Originally posted by Battlemaster

Your lack of understanding is what fails.

Their swordsmanship is reasonably equal as well (NJO Kyle and Jacen)

If Kyle weren't the Temple Battlemaster (which I hope you know is a lightsaber Instructor) then that wouldn't be feasible, but considering Kyle's experience, skill and the similar ease in which he decimated his opponants, it's very reasonable to conclude their swordsmanship is on par.

Are you saying because Katarn is a Battlemaster he must be equal to Jacen? Because that isn't necessarily true at all. Relying on Kyle's feats is fair but saying he is a battlemaster or using ABC logic to claim he is on par with Jacen is faulty.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'm pretty sure everyone here understands that it is.

My point is, that you aren't as well-immersed in the material as I am, and I've had to explain things to you in the past before.

You simply need to do more research with this.

laughing

However, I just want you to answer a simple question for me do you believe electric judgement is the same power as sith lightning?

Yes or no answer please.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Supposedly Luke says that Caedus has become superior to Vader in the book.

Supposedly? You mean you don't know?

You simply need to do more research with this, if you hope to take me on. I'm not as generous as you as to, erm, 'help you understand' the truth. You'll need to look it up yourself.

Zampanó
Originally posted by Nephthys
Is a blurb canon? IIRC there have been other fallible statements made by blurbs.

I'd also like to see where you get the idea that Jerec is as powerful as Jacen, as well as where its implied that Jacen wasn't more powerful than Vader prior to becoming Darth Caedus.
The blurb for Bloodlines has this little gem:

Canon?

Nephthys
Is that the book where he overexerts himself and almost passes out from Force-use?

Because if so then totally canon. thumb up

Arhael
I remember Cin Dralig - battlemaster of old order and how Anakin was casually fending off his attacks holding lightsaber in one hand.

S_W_LeGenD
Sidious's fight with Marek reveals a thing or two about his defensive capabilities.

During this encounter, Sidious got the taste of his own medicine (he got engulfed by his own Force Lightning assault - thanks to efforts of Marek) and he tolerated the pain he felt. Surprisingly, Sidious continued to assault Marek with his Force Lightning during this painful experience.

And when Marek gave himself to the Force and a powerful blast followed, Sidious took the brunt of this blast, which shredded the nearby Stormtroopers, and was still fine.

So?

Battlemaster
Originally posted by Nephthys
Supposedly? You mean you don't know?

You simply need to do more research with this, if you hope to take me on. I'm not as generous as you as to, erm, 'help you understand' the truth. You'll need to look it up yourself.


I already know you're a formidable Debator. No doubts there. ;3


I don't have the book on me, but other posts I've seen indicate Luke makes the statement in the book, and apparently it's reflected in the synopsis as well.

ares834
Originally posted by ares834
However, I just want you to answer a simple question for me do you believe electric judgement is the same power as sith lightning?

Yes or no answer please.

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