Annihilus vs Thor

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cdtm
Who wins?

ThereIsHope
Proably Thor

dmills
Done a few times already C.

Nihilist
If this is current Thor he gets one shotted

Digi
Originally posted by Nihilist
If this is current Thor he gets one shotted

lul, wut. How is current any different than classic? In the past year, off the top of my head, he's pulled out the godblast on a couple occasions, gut-checked himself against Mercy by producing 3 consecutive feats that are as good as anything he's ever done, stalemated Surfer (in an admittedly unconvincing fight), and one-shotted the Demiurge. And there are others. Other than jobbing to various incarnations of the Hulk, how is he one-shot-by-Annihilus weak?

Sin I AM
Originally posted by Digi
lul, wut. How is current any different than classic? In the past year, off the top of my head, he's pulled out the godblast on a couple occasions, gut-checked himself against Mercy by producing 3 consecutive feats that are as good as anything he's ever done, stalemated Surfer (in an admittedly unconvincing fight), and one-shotted the Demiurge. And there are others. Other than jobbing to various incarnations of the Hulk, how is he one-shot-by-Annihilus weak?



this stick out tongue

dmills
Originally posted by Digi
Other than jobbing to various incarnations of the Hulk, how is he one-shot-by-Annihilus weak?

He was one-shot by Taurus that's why sneer


On a serious note though, outside of the usual "team book" type of shenanigans, current Thor has some pretty hardcore feats. Certainly as much as anyone on that scale of power.

Digi
Well sure, I suppose if all you read is Avengers, you'd have a much different view of Thor. But then, that's almost always been true. Most of his uber feats from the classic era came from his solo book.

JakeTheBank
Pretty much.

While Fraction took Thor's personality and characterization and decided to nuke it to hell, he didn't effect Thor's power level at all.

dmills
Originally posted by Digi
Well sure, I suppose if all you read is Avengers, you'd have a much different view of Thor. But then, that's almost always been true. Most of his uber feats from the classic era came from his solo book.

Yep. Which run of Thor is your favorite?

Digi
I've discovered recently that there's two storytelling reasons for the heavy hitters jobbing in team books. The most-cited one is that they'd end the fights and threats too quickly, so the writer has to get them out of the plot somehow. This is valid.

But the other reason is that it helps sell the bad guy. "Holy crap, he just one-shotted {insert most powerful character}! This must be serious. To win, we're going to need teamwork." Equally as stupid, but I saw like 3 occurrences of this in rapid succession recently, and only then did it dawn on me.

So yeah, two different Thors. Avengers Thor, despite being called the heavy hitter, is occasionally no better in a fight than Iron Man.

Digi
Originally posted by dmills
Yep. Which run of Thor is your favorite?

That limited run with Ego and the Collector was cool. Great, great art, and it treated Thor with sort of a detached dignity that hasn't been around for a while. Of recent arcs, that gets my vote.

Nihilist
Originally posted by Digi
lul, wut. How is current any different than classic? In the past year, off the top of my head, he's pulled out the godblast on a couple occasions, gut-checked himself against Mercy by producing 3 consecutive feats that are as good as anything he's ever done, stalemated Surfer (in an admittedly unconvincing fight), and one-shotted the Demiurge. And there are others. Other than jobbing to various incarnations of the Hulk, how is he one-shot-by-Annihilus weak? SMH, i wasnt been serious but Thor has been one shot 3 times as of late.

But Annihilus is capable of draining Thor.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Digi
That's a good question that I'm not 100% prepared to answer right now. I follow his book, but not as religiously as, say, Spider-Man, so I'm not sure I can differentiate between arcs. Occasionally I'll skip issues and such, so my knowledge of him isn't complete. Maybe I'll get back to you.

{edit} Oh, wait, that limited run with Ego and the Collector was cool. Great, great art, and it treated Thor with sort of a detached dignity that hasn't been around for a while. Of recent arcs, that gets my vote.

I really liked Astonishing Thor, too. People hardly depict Thor in that noble light as he should be nowadays. In large part due to the movies, which showed us an arrogant and boisterous Thor, I'd imagine.

Writers seem to forget, or not care, that Thor underwent something called character development years ago.

Digi
Originally posted by Nihilist
SMH, i wasnt been serious but Thor has been one shot 3 times as of late.

But Annihilus is capable of draining Thor.

Heh, ok. It's hard to tell with you.

Valid point, but there seems to be two different Thors in comics these days. I don't want to ignore the bad entirely, but I think we can agree he isn't without some High Herald or higher feats and appearances in recent history.

No argument on the fight overall. I wasn't going to comment, but the one-shot thing was too odd not to correct.

Nihilist
Originally posted by Digi
Heh, ok. It's hard to tell with you.

Valid point, but there seems to be two different Thors in comics these days. I don't want to ignore the bad entirely, but I think we can agree he isn't without some High Herald or higher feats and appearances in recent history.

No argument on the fight overall. I wasn't going to comment, but the one-shot thing was too odd not to correct. Hard to tell with me? you act as if im some times quick tempered and serious!!

IIRC didnt Annihilus do well against Thor previously?

dmills
Originally posted by Digi
I've discovered recently that there's two storytelling reasons for the heavy hitters jobbing in team books. The most-cited one is that they'd end the fights and threats too quickly, so the writer has to get them out of the plot somehow. This is valid.

But the other reason is that it helps sell the bad guy. "Holy crap, he just one-shotted {insert most powerful character}! This must be serious. To win, we're going to need teamwork." Equally as stupid, but I saw like 3 occurrences of this in rapid succession recently, and only then did it dawn on me.

So yeah, two different Thors. Avengers Thor, despite being called the heavy hitter, is occasionally no better in a fight than Iron Man.

I was actually having this conversation with my son. He only knows Thor Vis-a-vis the Avengers movie, various cartoons (i.e. Hulk vs, EMH) so as you would expect, his view of Thor isn't too high. For him the notion that Thor is as powerful if not more so then say, the Hulk doesn't compute at all. When I told him that in the actual source material Thor has feats that trump most anything that the Hulk has ever done, his reaction was incredulous lol.

JakeTheBank
Yeah, last time I remember them fighting, Annihilus was amped off of Asgardians he had kidnapped and drained. I think they may have had another fight since then, but it's been a while.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by Digi
I've discovered recently that there's two storytelling reasons for the heavy hitters jobbing in team books. The most-cited one is that they'd end the fights and threats too quickly, so the writer has to get them out of the plot somehow. This is valid.

But the other reason is that it helps sell the bad guy. "Holy crap, he just one-shotted {insert most powerful character}! This must be serious. To win, we're going to need teamwork." Equally as stupid, but I saw like 3 occurrences of this in rapid succession recently, and only then did it dawn on me.

So yeah, two different Thors. Avengers Thor, despite being called the heavy hitter, is occasionally no better in a fight than Iron Man.

Basically, what you described is the Worf Effect.


I would never, ever, have the likes of Superman or Thor in a team full of relative pussies. You'd have to be at least 'half' (unquantifiable as that is) as powerful to be on a team with them if I were writing.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by dmills
I was actually having this conversation with my son. He only knows Thor Vis-a-vis the Avengers movie, various cartoons (i.e. Hulk vs, EMH) so as you would expect, his view of Thor isn't too high. For him the notion that Thor is as powerful if not more so then say, the Hulk doesn't compute at all. When I told him that in the actual source material Thor has feats that trump most anything that the Hulk has ever done, his reaction was incredulous lol.

Continue preaching the truth to your son, dmills.

The Realm Eternal smiles upon thee.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by dmills
I was actually having this conversation with my son. He only knows Thor Vis-a-vis the Avengers movie, various cartoons (i.e. Hulk vs, EMH) so as you would expect, his view of Thor isn't too high. For him the notion that Thor is as powerful if not more so then say, the Hulk doesn't compute at all. When I told him that in the actual source material Thor has feats that trump most anything that the Hulk has ever done, his reaction was incredulous lol.

Yeah.

Most of my younger cousins and what not have had the same thoughts until I explained the situation. Similar reactions.

JakeTheBank
lol I remember when my nephew told me Hulk was far more powerful than Thor. I just troll-faced him and showed him a bunch of scans on the computer and said "Problem?".

He then asked me "How come Thor does all this awesome stuff and then when he fights Hulk all of a sudden gets powered down?"

Didn't have an answer for him ha ha

CosmicComet
But yeah, Thor not being respected among the children, IS a problem in the long term.

I hope whoever in Marvel hates Thor so much retires, or just gets brutally haped or whatever, whichever is more convenient. smile

Digi
Lol at kids assuming Hulk is clearly more powerful. We're going to be in the vast minority in about 5 years when all those kids are trolling internet forums.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Continue preaching the truth to your son, dmills.

The Realm Eternal smiles upon thee.

laughing out loud

Originally posted by Nihilist
Hard to tell with me? you act as if im some times quick tempered and serious!!

IIRC didnt Annihilus do well against Thor previously?

No idea. I really don't know a whole lot about Annihilus. He was mostly a Fantastic Four entity until the cosmic War, and I've never followed FF. I know a general power level and that's about it.

I don't remember a specific fight, but that doesn't mean it never happened. Based on general portrayals, it's probably reasonable to say Ann. wins, but not easily.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by CosmicComet
But yeah, Thor not being respected among the children, IS a problem in the long term.

I hope whoever in Marvel hates Thor so much retires, or just gets brutally haped or whatever, whichever is more convenient. smile

Honestly, I have no idea who that would be. Brevoort is apparently a Thor/Asgardian fan boy. Bendis, in spite of the Avengers Assemble crap out now, always wrote a high end Thor power wise. Fraction rapes the mythos and character regularly, but still has him powerful as he's ever been.

If anything, it seems like the movie, cartoon show, and various animated films seemed to change things around. Which is ironic that in the actual comics, Thor vs. Hulk consistently has been "could go either way" affair when Thor clearly fights on Hulk's level, but outside of that they want to paint another story.

EDIT: Last time I checked, Loeb and Quesada were in charge of all the stuff Marvel does outside of the actual comics. <__<

dmills
Originally posted by Digi
That limited run with Ego and the Collector was cool. Great, great art, and it treated Thor with sort of a detached dignity that hasn't been around for a while. Of recent arcs, that gets my vote.

That Astonish storyline took me back to a sense of wonderment and scale in comics that I have not experienced in quite some time. I loved it.

Marvel would keep my wallet empty if they put out more material in that vein.

Digi
Originally posted by dmills
That Astonish storyline took me back to a sense of wonderment and scale in comics that I have not experienced in quite some time. I loved it.

Marvel would keep my wallet empty if they put out more material in that vein.

thumb up

dmills
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I really liked Astonishing Thor, too. People hardly depict Thor in that noble light as he should be nowadays. In large part due to the movies, which showed us an arrogant and boisterous Thor, I'd imagine.

Writers seem to forget, or not care, that Thor underwent something called character development years ago.

That's what kills me when Brevoort has the nerve to wax poetic about the sad state of comic related interviews and/or reviews. It's like, are you seriou Tom? You don't see a correlation between what you see as a decline in the quality of the people who write about the goings on in the comic industry vs the relative quality, (or rather lack there of) in the material that they review?

carver9
Originally posted by Digi
I've discovered recently that there's two storytelling reasons for the heavy hitters jobbing in team books. The most-cited one is that they'd end the fights and threats too quickly, so the writer has to get them out of the plot somehow. This is valid.

But the other reason is that it helps sell the bad guy. "Holy crap, he just one-shotted {insert most powerful character}! This must be serious. To win, we're going to need teamwork." Equally as stupid, but I saw like 3 occurrences of this in rapid succession recently, and only then did it dawn on me.

So yeah, two different Thors. Avengers Thor, despite being called the heavy hitter, is occasionally no better in a fight than Iron Man.

But there are other powerful members on the team as well that isn't experiencing anything close to what Thor is experiencing. I think it would be high end as well if someone was to one shot WWH, hell, it would actually look better but Thats not what is happening. I think falling back on this type of argument is just making excuse imo (no hard feelings Digi).

carver9
By the way, Hulk is far more powerful than Thor. I don't get it...people don't have an issue with Doomsday running through Heralds but when Hulk does it, its a low showing for the character. The hate flows in you all incredibly well. Some people on here, I don't even take seriously when its involving Hulk (Cosmic and Pillar is a good example of this).

Digi
Originally posted by carver9
But there are other powerful members on the team as well that isn't experiencing anything close to what Thor is experiencing. I think it would be high end as well if someone was to one shot WWH, hell, it would actually look better but Thats not what is happening. I think falling back on this type of argument is just making excuse imo (no hard feelings Digi).

Well, then you need to have a competing theory on why he's written ridiculously more powerful in his own book, consistently. Because that's basically what I'm getting at. If he can one-shot Demiurge and incapacitate Ego, then gets chumped while Iron Man does well, something's up. We take the good with the bad, sure, but it's outright schizophrenia with Thor right now. I'd argue he's had some of his best HH+ feats ever recently. His fanbase just doesn't go nuts every time he does something at this level, because he's been doing them for decades.

WWH was a single story arc intended to highlight the character. He's never going to have bad feats to bring him down, because wasn't continuous as Thor is. You're comparing apples and oranges relative to my point. It's barely relevant, if at all.

Originally posted by carver9
By the way, Hulk is far more powerful than Thor. I don't get it...people don't have an issue with Doomsday running through Heralds but when Hulk does it, its a low showing for the character. The hate flows in you all incredibly well. Some people on here, I don't even take seriously when its involving Hulk (Cosmic and Pillar is a good example of this).

I'm not going to rage on you like some. But there was a time not too long ago when no one would even bother thinking this. Hulk has been on a consistent uptrend for about 10 years now, but before that his best stuff paled in comparison to Thor. Back in the 70's and 80's it wasn't even close. This isn't fanboy talk, it's just obvious sh*t. I'm fine with admitting that when they meet now, Hulk could conceivably come out on top.

I do realize this is the general direction Marvel is going with the two characters. So meh, whatever. However, even the recent worldbreaker wank is only now just pulling Hulk to Thor's best feats. Saying he's "far" more powerful than Thor, though, needs amendment. You need to temper yourself a bit and realize that the reason everyone seems to be against you isn't because you're the only one that's figured it out, but that there might be a valid competing theory.

And the forum's thing with Hulk has never been about total power, but versatility. When Thor could realistically stay out of range and still deal considerable damage to Hulk, it's hard to say Hulk is unequivocally better. No one doubts that his raw power is comparable or better.

Just think on it. We don't need to get into this. Don't turn this into a Hulk v. Thor thread. We were talking about a gradual change in the perception, sharing stories, and talking about story arcs. Frankly, another rage-filled debate with those two is far less interesting. I'd leave, and I was enjoying myself in this thread.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by carver9
By the way, Hulk is far more powerful than Thor. I don't get it...people don't have an issue with Doomsday running through Heralds but when Hulk does it, its a low showing for the character. The hate flows in you all incredibly well. Some people on here, I don't even take seriously when its involving Hulk (Cosmic and Pillar is a good example of this).


Completely different powersets carv

Black Devil
Hulk is more powerful than Thor

carver9
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Completely different powersets carv

How is it completely different powersets? Because Doomsday can adapt? So can Hulk.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2536/013anu.jpg

What else makes them different? If anything, Hulk is far more powerful than Doomsday. His strength, durability, etc. Like I've said, other bricks get love. People brag about Despero physically handling the league, people brag about The General handling the league, didn't have a problem with Konvict doing it but when Hulk runs through Heralds, its a Sin (lol). The Hulk hate is famous but I'm here to correct it.

carver9
Originally posted by Digi
Well, then you need to have a competing theory on why he's written ridiculously more powerful in his own book, consistently. Because that's basically what I'm getting at. If he can one-shot Demiurge and incapacitate Ego, then gets chumped while Iron Man does well, something's up. We take the good with the bad, sure, but it's outright schizophrenia with Thor right now. I'd argue he's had some of his best HH+ feats ever recently. His fanbase just doesn't go nuts every time he does something at this level, because he's been doing them for decades.

WWH was a single story arc intended to highlight the character. He's never going to have bad feats to bring him down, because wasn't continuous as Thor is. You're comparing apples and oranges relative to my point. It's barely relevant, if at all.



I'm not going to rage on you like some. But there was a time not too long ago when no one would even bother thinking this. Hulk has been on a consistent uptrend for about 10 years now, but before that his best stuff paled in comparison to Thor. Back in the 70's and 80's it wasn't even close. This isn't fanboy talk, it's just obvious sh*t. I'm fine with admitting that when they meet now, Hulk could conceivably come out on top.

I do realize this is the general direction Marvel is going with the two characters. So meh, whatever. However, even the recent worldbreaker wank is only now just pulling Hulk to Thor's best feats. Saying he's "far" more powerful than Thor, though, needs amendment. You need to temper yourself a bit and realize that the reason everyone seems to be against you isn't because you're the only one that's figured it out, but that there might be a valid competing theory.

And the forum's thing with Hulk has never been about total power, but versatility. When Thor could realistically stay out of range and still deal considerable damage to Hulk, it's hard to say Hulk is unequivocally better. No one doubts that his raw power is comparable or better.

Just think on it. We don't need to get into this. Don't turn this into a Hulk v. Thor thread. We were talking about a gradual change in the perception, sharing stories, and talking about story arcs. Frankly, another rage-filled debate with those two is far less interesting. I'd leave, and I was enjoying myself in this thread.

I agree with most of this but it contradicts what happens on panel. By the ways Thor has used Lightning against Hulk, weaker versions of Hulk which only resulted in getting Hulk even more angrier. In previous Times, yes, Thor was more powerful but the power level of each character has changed drastically. Thor versatility might be better but Hulks overall power is better physically which gives him the opportunity to power through Thors attack and take him out. The power difference has gotten so bad that Hulk has the power to one shot Thor or take out beings without touching them that would give Thor a run for his money. This doesn't include the fact that Gravage Hulk (a weaker version of Hulk) took it to the Avengers, a team that consisted of Thor and Ironman along with other members.

I agree with some of your points but it contradicts what is shown on panel.

Digi
Originally posted by carver9
I agree with most of this but it contradicts what happens on panel. By the ways Thor has used Lightning against Hulk, weaker versions of Hulk which only resulted in getting Hulk even more angrier. In previous Times, yes, Thor was more powerful but the power level of each character has changed drastically. Thor versatility might be better but Hulks overall power is better physically which gives him the opportunity to power through Thors attack and take him out. The power difference has gotten so bad that Hulk has the power to one shot Thor or take out beings without touching them that would give Thor a run for his money. This doesn't include the fact that Gravage Hulk (a weaker version of Hulk) took it to the Avengers, a team that consisted of Thor and Ironman along with other members.

I agree with some of your points but it contradicts what is shown on panel.

I'd probably say something like "you're selectively choosing feats" but I'm bored already with this. Have fun with the others.

dmills
Originally posted by carver9
But there are other powerful members on the team as well that isn't experiencing anything close to what Thor is experiencing. I think it would be high end as well if someone was to one shot WWH, hell, it would actually look better but Thats not what is happening. I think falling back on this type of argument is just making excuse imo (no hard feelings Digi). Originally posted by carver9
By the way, Hulk is far more powerful than Thor. I don't get it...people don't have an issue with Doomsday running through Heralds but when Hulk does it, its a low showing for the character. The hate flows in you all incredibly well. Some people on here, I don't even take seriously when its involving Hulk (Cosmic and Pillar is a good example of this).

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/monty_brown.gif

Anyways.

So who would be the best person to handle the main title once Fraction steps away? I've heard some say Hickman. My thing with Hickman is that his pace is very deliberate. He's big on plot development with action sequencing interspersed in small doses throughout the overall storyline. Would Thor fans be interested in a cleverly written but perhaps less action oriented Thor?

I ask this because I seem to recall some Thor fans complaining about the pacing of Astonish, which is very similar to the style of Hickman.

Digi
lmao. perfect gif is perfect.

Horrificus
People don't understand that, to take the side of Thor over Hulk, when comparing power, is not a "hate" thing.

Hulk was never meant to do the things he does lately. Many of his greatest and latest feats are outside of his power profile. They don't even match up with his abilities or origins.

It could be compared to having Captain America suddenly gain the powers of flight and heat vision, while the only explanation for it is that the Super-Soldier serum provides limitless power.

Well? Why didn't he have limitless power all the decades before this?
Who knows? It doesn't matter. Let's just sell some books!

In recent years, fans seem to be leaning toward a love of the "uber-powerful". The crazier the feats, the happier the fans.

"Cosmic-Level" characters are everywhere. IMHO, the new developments with Hulk are simply a ploy to keep Hulk running with the big boys. Unfortunately, it doesn't always jibe with the universe that marvel has created.

Thor is thrown into a bin that is labeled as "Heralds". Before this level was given a name, my friends and I called them "Cosmics", or "Cosmic Class" beings. These guys were the ones that could basically do anything. Travel anywhere, at any time and speed was no concern. Usually, their strength, power-levels and abilities allowed them to do ANYTHING they needed to do. Literally.

Hulk is not one of them.

The beauty of the Hulk character, was that when he ran into these Cosmics, he actually presented a threat, without the writers having to change or amp his abilities to ridiculous levels.

He was the epitome of "The Brick". And, when he fought some incredibly powerful being, he didn't shrug off, or heal from every attack. And, he didn't constantly do things that even go against comic book physics.

To a lot of us, who have been reading Hulk comics for decades, this isn't even the true Hulk. This is some new comic book character that is almost never really in danger. He floats around, bullying the entire Marvel universe and upsetting the continuity of many other characters.

So, be patient with us.

The Hulk we grew up with, was simple. But, in that simplicity, was the draw to the character. You actually worried about him. He wasn't ALWAYS the strongest, or the smartest. He wasn't impervious to EVERYTHING. He was constantly tricked.
He had more heart than Ben Grimm.
He was an underdog.

But, some times, when it counted, he was able to pull off some big wins against the biggest guns around.

But, I would imagine that a lot of us that argue against Hulk, are big fans of him.

carver9
Originally posted by Horrificus
People don't understand that, to take the side of Thor over Hulk, when comparing power, is not a "hate" thing.

Hulk was never meant to do the things he does lately. Many of his greatest and latest feats are outside of his power profile. They don't even match up with his abilities or origins.

It could be compared to having Captain America suddenly gain the powers of flight and heat vision, while the only explanation for it is that the Super-Soldier serum provides limitless power.

Well? Why didn't he have limitless power all the decades before this?
Who knows? It doesn't matter. Let's just sell some books!

In recent years, fans seem to be leaning toward a love of the "uber-powerful". The crazier the feats, the happier the fans.

"Cosmic-Level" characters are everywhere. IMHO, the new developments with Hulk are simply a ploy to keep Hulk running with the big boys. Unfortunately, it doesn't always jibe with the universe that marvel has created.

Thor is thrown into a bin that is labeled as "Heralds". Before this level was given a name, my friends and I called them "Cosmics", or "Cosmic Class" beings. These guys were the ones that could basically do anything. Travel anywhere, at any time and speed was no concern. Usually, their strength, power-levels and abilities allowed them to do ANYTHING they needed to do. Literally.

Hulk is not one of them.

The beauty of the Hulk character, was that when he ran into these Cosmics, he actually presented a threat, without the writers having to change or amp his abilities to ridiculous levels.

He was the epitome of "The Brick". And, when he fought some incredibly powerful being, he didn't shrug off, or heal from every attack. And, he didn't constantly do things that even go against comic book physics.

To a lot of us, who have been reading Hulk comics for decades, this isn't even the true Hulk. This is some new comic book character that is almost never really in danger. He floats around, bullying the entire Marvel universe and upsetting the continuity of many other characters.

So, be patient with us.

The Hulk we grew up with, was simple. But, in that simplicity, was the draw to the character. You actually worried about him. He wasn't ALWAYS the strongest, or the smartest. He wasn't impervious to EVERYTHING. He was constantly tricked.
He had more heart than Ben Grimm.
He was an underdog.

But, some times, when it counted, he was able to pull off some big wins against the biggest guns around.

But, I would imagine that a lot of us that argue against Hulk, are big fans of him.

Huh? Why not accept Hulk jumping up a couple of tiers than what he use to be. Writers see him in a different view, they are living up to his namesake...he is the strongest there is.

Just accept it and move on.

cdtm
Originally posted by Digi


No idea. I really don't know a whole lot about Annihilus. He was mostly a Fantastic Four entity until the cosmic War, and I've never followed FF. I know a general power level and that's about it.

I remember Ben used to kick his butt all the time, and tank his cosmic control rod.

Than Annihilation happened, and he made mincemeat of Quasar, and was beating Richard Rider. This power level seemed to stick in Fantastic Four, when he tanked Johnny Storms nova, twice.

But, when he lost his weapon, he seemed pretty weak, so either the cosmic control rod amps his physical stats, or the FF writer was being lazy about getting Annihilus out of the way for the main story.

cdtm
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Writers seem to forget, or not care, that Thor underwent something called character development years ago.

Outside of Fraction, does Jurgens write the worst Thor?

His Thor has all the personality of cardboard. Just a generic strong man that boasts a lot.

Horrificus
Originally posted by cdtm
I remember Ben used to kick his butt all the time, and tank his cosmic control rod.

Than Annihilation happened, and he made mincemeat of Quasar, and was beating Richard Rider. This power level seemed to stick in Fantastic Four, when he tanked Johnny Storms nova, twice.

But, when he lost his weapon, he seemed pretty weak, so either the cosmic control rod amps his physical stats, or the FF writer was being lazy about getting Annihilus out of the way for the main story. See? This is the stuff I remember too.
I posted a while back, during Annihilation and brought up the way Annihilus used to get beat lest and right. All I got was a ration of sh*t from other members.

But, I remember him getting beat pretty easily and quite often.

cdtm
Originally posted by Horrificus
See? This is the stuff I remember too.
I posted a while back, during Annihilation and brought up the way Annihilus used to get beat lest and right. All I got was a ration of sh*t from other members.

But, I remember him getting beat pretty easily and quite often.

Oh yeah, there's a big difference between pre and post Annihilation War Annihilus. It's very similar to how Sinestro is written after Sinestro Corp War.

Ben didn't one shot KO him or anything, but he was able give him a good fight and even dominate him.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by cdtm
Outside of Fraction, does Jurgens write the worst Thor?

His Thor has all the personality of cardboard. Just a generic strong man that boasts a lot.

Whaaaaaaat? confused

Jurgens had a great run on Thor, especially toward the end with the Reigning. He tackled every aspect of Thor that was important: his nobility, his humility and lack thereof, being worthy, and his humanity.

I'd rate him quite high on my Thor writer's list, actually.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by dmills
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/monty_brown.gif

Anyways.

So who would be the best person to handle the main title once Fraction steps away? I've heard some say Hickman. My thing with Hickman is that his pace is very deliberate. He's big on plot development with action sequencing interspersed in small doses throughout the overall storyline. Would Thor fans be interested in a cleverly written but perhaps less action oriented Thor?

I ask this because I seem to recall some Thor fans complaining about the pacing of Astonish, which is very similar to the style of Hickman.

I think Hickman would be best on the Avengers, but he could definitely tackle Thor and do it right. JiM is heavy on plot development which makes sense as it's Loki's book, whereas Mighty Thor should be more action orientated.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by carver9
Huh? Why not accept Hulk jumping up a couple of tiers than what he use to be. Writers see him in a different view, they are living up to his namesake...he is the strongest there is.

Just accept it and move on.

no expression

Because a lot of us read comics for more than just feats and battleboard style writing, which is what Marvel caters to nowadays. And let's be honest, Carver; you like Hulk because of his feats and how he's being stroked nowadays. Nothing wrong with it, but be honest about it and own up to it.

I like Thor (obviously), and as a fan, I can admit I'd like Thor to look awesome featwise. But feats < story and character development. Fraction's Thor is a beast, as evidenced in Fear Itself and his ongoing. He's also a raging maniac half the time who's way too willing to kill people who piss him off. As a fan, that shit annoys me to no end and no amount of feat stroking will change my mind. I don't even follow Thor's book often outside of skimming due to my gross disappointment with the title.

A lot of Hulk fans have expressed their own disappointment in how Hulk's character (not his power level) has been treated coming off the heels of HoTM and Pak's wank train. Coupled with Bendis' nonsense, it just becomes less about Hulk's character and struggle which makes him legitimately interesting and mindless smashing to cater to fans who eat that shit up and don't demand more.

You yourself even admitted Avengers Assemble was garbage.

carver9
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
no expression

Because a lot of us read comics for more than just feats and battleboard style writing, which is what Marvel caters to nowadays. And let's be honest, Carver; you like Hulk because of his feats and how he's being stroked nowadays. Nothing wrong with it, but be honest about it and own up to it.

I like Thor (obviously), and as a fan, I can admit I'd like Thor to look awesome featwise. But feats < story and character development. Fraction's Thor is a beast, as evidenced in Fear Itself and his ongoing. He's also a raging maniac half the time who's way too willing to kill people who piss him off. As a fan, that shit annoys me to no end and no amount of feat stroking will change my mind. I don't even follow Thor's book often outside of skimming due to my gross disappointment with the title.

A lot of Hulk fans have expressed their own disappointment in how Hulk's character (not his power level) has been treated coming off the heels of HoTM and Pak's wank train. Coupled with Bendis' nonsense, it just becomes less about Hulk's character and struggle which makes him legitimately interesting and mindless smashing to cater to fans who eat that shit up and don't demand more.

You yourself even admitted Avengers Assemble was garbage.

It is garbage, that's why I didn't download the issue but that doesnt change the fact that recent writers portray Hulk at different levels than what he use to be. The story was trash and I'm not doubting that, my only issue is when people show bias towards Hulk but doesn't do the same towards people that are similar in some ways to Hulk.

If you are going to be bias against one of the most powerful bricks in comics, do the same to others. Cry when Doomsday run through an entire GL corpse or when Superman, Darkseid along with numerous of other beings don't use their versatility against him. Same with Despero...he took out a gang of high Heralds, some who could have easily bfred him. Why not pout about it? Why not give the Hulk treatment? Doesn't make sense. I agree with you about the stories but this isn't a one sided thing. Don't be bias about it...say the same thing that you would say about Hulk about similar characters as well. That's all I'm asking.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by carver9
It is garbage, that's why I didn't download the issue but that doesnt change the fact that recent writers portray Hulk at different levels than what he use to be. The story was trash and I'm not doubting that, my only issue is when people show bias towards Hulk but doesn't do the same towards people that are similar in some ways to Hulk.

If you are going to be bias against one of the most powerful bricks in comics, do the same to others. Cry when Doomsday run through an entire GL corpse or when Superman, Darkseid aoong with numerous of other beings don't use their versatility against him. Same with Despero...he took out the a gang of high Heralds, some who could have easily bfred him. Why not pout about it? Why not give the Hulk treatment? Doesn't make sense. I agree with you about the stories but this isn't a one sided thing. Don't be bias about it...say the same thing that you would say about Hulk about similar characters as well. That's all I'm asking.

...okay?

Most of those stories are actually well written, though. I have no problems with crazy power levels or feats. I do when it's at the expense of characterization or another character's expense. And that's especially true when it's characters I actually like.

Someone asked me would I be happy if Thor suddenly got the Odin Force again and was at King Thor or Rune King Thor levels. My answer was a resounding no. It wouldn't make any goddamn sense and be complete character regression to say other things.

dmills
See this is where I see it a bit differently. I didn't mind at all the hotm stuff because it was exploring the depths of the Hulks rage. Basically if the monster was truly unleashed, what would he be capable of? Maybe Pak failed in terms of execution, but I don't front him for exploring it.

And lest we forgot, Pak via Planet Hulk was responsible for some of the best character progression that the character had seen since perhaps Peter David. Perhaps he lost his mojo in wwh, but PH stands tall right behind Annihilation but just ahead of Civil War as the best shit that Marvel has put out in a decade imo. Maybe behind Brubaker's Immortal Iron Fist if you want to count that as well.

Sin I AM
^^ I agree with you on PH, it was one of the most well-written Hulk stories ever. It just seemed to me that one he wrapped it up and did WWH he completely shitted on the already established characterization and executed the entire thing poorly...


I have no problem with Hulk doing off the wall stuff, thats his nature, its just that recently he's gone way off base from the root of the character...especially the Banner aspect and the whole mad scientist crap. I miss the days when Hulk actually had a chance of losing..when he had to dig deep in himself and win. Not flip some auto-rage switch and power-up.

Newjak
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
no expression

Because a lot of us read comics for more than just feats and battleboard style writing, which is what Marvel caters to nowadays. And let's be honest, Carver; you like Hulk because of his feats and how he's being stroked nowadays. Nothing wrong with it, but be honest about it and own up to it.

I like Thor (obviously), and as a fan, I can admit I'd like Thor to look awesome featwise. But feats < story and character development. Fraction's Thor is a beast, as evidenced in Fear Itself and his ongoing. He's also a raging maniac half the time who's way too willing to kill people who piss him off. As a fan, that shit annoys me to no end and no amount of feat stroking will change my mind. I don't even follow Thor's book often outside of skimming due to my gross disappointment with the title.

A lot of Hulk fans have expressed their own disappointment in how Hulk's character (not his power level) has been treated coming off the heels of HoTM and Pak's wank train. Coupled with Bendis' nonsense, it just becomes less about Hulk's character and struggle which makes him legitimately interesting and mindless smashing to cater to fans who eat that shit up and don't demand more.

You yourself even admitted Avengers Assemble was garbage. I agree with this.

I like Thor after his return. Everything about it was done so well and it was often very slow on the action, but when there was action I seriously enjoyed it. Like when he confronted Iron Man it was perfect imo.

Bentley
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I think Hickman would be best on the Avengers, but he could definitely tackle Thor and do it right. JiM is heavy on plot development which makes sense as it's Loki's book, whereas Mighty Thor should be more action orientated.

Hickman is a very solid writer at least in the high end adventure genre he's been scripting in the last couple of years. If he pulls off Avengers as he did the FF he would put most of Bendis's run into shame.

Didn't Thor and Annihilus fought already anyways? I recall seeing some scans as of when Annihilus took control of the Odin Force with his Control Rod or something.

Newjak
Originally posted by dmills
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/monty_brown.gif

Anyways.

So who would be the best person to handle the main title once Fraction steps away? I've heard some say Hickman. My thing with Hickman is that his pace is very deliberate. He's big on plot development with action sequencing interspersed in small doses throughout the overall storyline. Would Thor fans be interested in a cleverly written but perhaps less action oriented Thor?

I ask this because I seem to recall some Thor fans complaining about the pacing of Astonish, which is very similar to the style of Hickman. I actually really like Astonishing. It was just a good story imo.

I think Thor is a character that thrives of complexity and not simplicity. I think you get that with a more deliberate pace.

Of course that's me and I'm a lot older now. Young me would have wanted to see explosions and massive uber feats of destruction everywhere.

I think that's why you see a massive push for a character like the Hulk to be uber, even though when you compare totality of work Hulk isn't anymore impressive then a Thor or Silver Surfer, kids like him and they want their heroes to be the strongest and most powerfullest person walking around.

Horrificus
As I am reading all of your posts, there is an image that keeps popping into my head. The "Power Up" that Hulk seems to be able to jump into.

It's like he has been turned into a DBZ character!

And, it is good to know that I'm not alone in missing the Hulk that you rooted for. The one that didn't have "perfect strategy" in every confrontation. The one that could lose.

dmills
Originally posted by Horrificus
As I am reading all of your posts, there is an image that keeps popping into my head. The "Power Up" that Hulk seems to be able to jump into.

It's like he has been turned into a DBZ character!

And, it is good to know that I'm not alone in missing the Hulk that you rooted for. The one that didn't have "perfect strategy" in every confrontation. The one that could lose.

Hahaha, I was just going to reply to sin that it was a little DBZish. Maybe that's why caver enjoyed it so much lol.

cdtm
Psycho Gundam covered this.
hXBrmlcADJA

This is Hulk now. big grin

dmills
I saw this quote on another site and I thought of Carver lol.

carver9
Nothing but the truth. Current Hulk is the most powerful being that is walking the planet right now.

Digi
Actually, there's probably something to this. The inherent dislike of Hulk by many stems from the fact that he's been turned into a stupid character in most of his portrayals. The elucidation of this fact by many of you is evidence of this. I always gravitated away from him because he seemed like a one-note character to me, what with anger-based power and all, but it probably appeals to a teen crowd that perpetually feels put-upon.

I mean, imagine the lonely piano theme from the old show playing during any of the wankfests that exist currently. It just doesn't fit anymore.

As much as I hate to admit it though, Hulk isn't the only one. Probably why I read way less than I used to.

Originally posted by carver9
Nothing but the truth. Current Hulk is the most powerful being that is walking the planet right now.

I'm sure Adult Franklin Richards and a couple other potential reality warpers would be interested to hear this.

Newjak
Originally posted by Digi
Actually, there's probably something to this. The inherent dislike of Hulk by many stems from the fact that he's been turned into a stupid character in most of his portrayals. The elucidation of this fact by many of you is evidence of this. I always gravitated away from him because he seemed like a one-note character to me, what with anger-based power and all, but it probably appeals to a teen crowd that perpetually feels put-upon.

I mean, imagine the lonely piano theme from the old show playing during any of the wankfests that exist currently. It just doesn't fit anymore.

As much as I hate to admit it though, Hulk isn't the only one. Probably why I read way less than I used to.



I'm sure Adult Franklin Richards and a couple other potential reality warpers would be interested to hear this. I feel like Wolverine also had that kind of thing as well.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by carver9
Nothing but the truth. Current Hulk is the most powerful being that is walking the planet right now.

No, he's not. Not even close.

It's stuff like this that makes people think you don't read Hulk comics outside of his feats and as long as Hulk looks powerful you could give a shit about the quality of the book.

The Sorrow
Originally posted by cdtm
Psycho Gundam covered this.
hXBrmlcADJA

This is Hulk now. big grin
Lol no joke. Play from 2:50, it's almost uncanny:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8094156/Incredible_Hulks_632_012.jpg.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8094189/Incredible_Hulks_632_021.jpg.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8094188/Incredible_Hulks_632_020.jpg.html

JayDaDon
Originally posted by Digi




I'm sure Adult Franklin Richards and a couple other potential reality warpers would be interested to hear this.

http://gifsoup.com/view5/3853648/lebron-mvp-dance-o.gif

Was just about to say this.

ctsketch
I'm pretty sure even CHILD franklin richards could shout *GO AWAY* and hulk would cease to exist....

Zack Fair
Shit like "Banner tried killing himself but he couldn't, therefor Hulk is immortal. Strength is infinite. Strongest there is" is why I currently hate Hulk.

Horrificus
Originally posted by Zack Fair
Shit like "Banner tried killing himself but he couldn't, therefor Hulk is immortal. Strength is infinite. Strongest there is" is why I currently hate Hulk. When a writer is working with a profile like that, there is no reason to use creativity. EVERY story ends the same way.
No battle is ever in question. There is never any reason for concern over the main character.

Say it with me... Gheeyyyyyy....

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