marvel cosmology

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leonidas
ok, so a thread dedicated to a discussion about the oft f'd up cosmology that comprises the marvel universe.....

i'll repost a couple replies and questions that can maybe get the ball rolling. any trolling/flaming/acting like an a-hole will get your a$$ reported in a hurry.




yo,

no, you're not quite getting what i'm saying. the 616 universe IS a singular universe. that is indisputable and i don't believe i have said otherwise, but it's possible i mixed things up in a post somewhere. if i did, 'pologies. i don't like making those kinds of errors if i did.

my stance is--and has always been--that the 616 universe is just ONE universe nestled within 616 ETERNITY. it's not the 616 that is a multiverse. it is ETERNITY itself. we're just one of countless universes, dimensions and realities that call 616 eternity home. at least that is always how i have viewed it and that is why the scans i posted make sense to me. it's also how i see things like alternate dormammu's existing, and cyttorak's and even vishanti. each alternate universe exists within an alternate ETERNITY, which is, again, a multiverse unto itself.

now, i freely admit that is MY interpretation and it may be wrong (and this is derailing the thread but hopefuly we can bring it back full circle....)

leonidas
okay...... again, this is only speculation (freely admitted) on my part, but i think it fits in with the scans i have shown, AND the scans you have shown. i'm a fan of occam's razor. i view eternity (all versions, not just 616) as a body. the cells of its body are the realities and universes that make it up. sticking with that analogy, i see the corridor and crossroads as veins or arteries or maybe even highways to mix the metaphor that can be used to either reach other universes/dimenions WITHIN each version of eternity, or (as in the case of koon) to reach ALTERNATE versions of eternity. and obviously they are dangerous and tricky and one can become lost and even marooned within them. to my way of thinking, the scans only further support the idea that eternity 616 (and all eternities) are multiversal beings. the corridors simply allow movement within and across the nearly infinite number of realities/dimensions that comprise each individual eternity, and of course grant access to the even MORE limitless number of alternate 'eternities' in existence. and that answers your first question--it is this collection of 'eternities' that comprise the multiverse as we know it.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
=============================


The 616 Reality/Universe is a single (one) Reality/Universe according to Marvel:

*** (OHotMU 2006 - LT bio) ***


http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7932/omniis1cz2.th.jpg

"A Universe is a SINGLE-Dimension Reality, such as Earth 616,
the Mainstream Marvel Universe.

The Multiverse ...
is the collection of Alternate Dimensions with a similar nature and Universal hierarchy.

......................................................................................................


*** (OHotMU 2008 - Glossary of Definitions) ***


Earth 616: (616 Universe)

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9606/616mw2.th.jpg

"Core Continuum designation given to the Prime Earth of the Marvel Universe,
Reality from which most Alternate Earths derive"

......................................................................................................


Multiverse: (group of alternate/divergent/parallel UniverseS)

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6291/multiversesr2.th.jpg

"Group of Alternate UniverseS containing the same Hierarchy,
including Eternity, Infinity and the Watchers"


yep, i agree with all of that. the 616 universe/dimension is indeed singular, but as i've said, that doesn't contradict my personal interpretation of the marvel multiverse.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
=====================================


The Eternity that popped up in front of Dr Strange during the Infinity Crusade arc,

... did not care about the 616 Reality and the dangers it faced:




"The Goddess ... she does not concern me"

"Me to intervene in a matter involving a ONE Dimension?" (616 Reality/Universe)

"You're risking your all against such an infinitesimal part of myself." (616 Reality/Universe)


-------------------------------------


While this Eternity obviously doesn't care about the 616 Reality/Universe,
it does though concern itself with the Multiverse instead.

In fact,
just giving Dr Strange a vision is suffice to produce dire results for the ALL the Multiverse.





=====================================


This is interesting, cause Warlock received the same treatment from the same Eternity/Infinity:

They didn't care about the 616 Reality/Universe: (tie-in to Infinity Crusade)




"Machinations of (the Goddess) hold no interest to us"

"Concern ourselves over it? No."

"Our Realm is Forever,
we can't be preoccupied by any ONE Aspect of our Reality." (one "aspect" is one universe)

"We are all" ... "No ONE part of the whole is indispensable"


(ONE part being the 616 Universe)


-------------------------------------




"Before you stands the Embodiment of Actuality."

"We may exist in Myriad fashions and over the millennia have."

"Do not pester us with matters of little import."


(The 616 Universe? ... "little import?" ... because you exist in "myriad" fashions?)

Are the "Myriad fashions" your alternates? (reasonable enough)


=====================================



+++ I can't see how 616 Eternity representing that single Universe/Dimension/Reality (616)
would not care what happens to it.

I can see 616 Eternity representing its totality
which would then be the Multiversal consciousness of all space-time in Marvel
being portrayed as not giving shit about 616. +++


=====================================


Anyway ... this actually happened not once, but twice to Warlock.

Here' Eternity now alone, telling Warlock the same thing basically:




"It holds no significance to my existence"


That's incredible.


Then again,
this Eternity is the same one it seems that popped up in the Abraxas arc:

"I am Forever. All that ever was, is or will be."


--------------------------------------------------------------


That's exactly what the Eternity from the Abraxas arc is to Roma, the Omniversal guardian:




"All That Ever Was, Ever Is, or Ever Will Be"


--------------------------------------------------------------


The Abraxas arc was dealing with 616 Eternity's totality,
in which case is the infinite Multiverse of Alternate Realities.

Just sayin.

laughing out loud

i think you can now see where i'm going with this batch of questions. 616 eternity didn't care about the 616 universe for exactly the reasons he said--it is an almost infinitesimally small portion of him. it is simply one universe among the countless number that make up 616 eternity's totality. once 616 eternity is viewed as a multiverse unto itself, everything else seems to fall in line.

abraxas' feat was much different from anything the IG or goddess did and he was a bigger threat to the TRUE multiverse. again, using the body analogy, picture an endless number of eternities lined up (as in the ff arc). abraxas was acting like an eraser. he was wiping out the outlines of the eternity bodies and forcing them to merge. all the alternate eternities being forced together and blending and mixing. he did what magus did with his TWO universes WITHIN 616 eternity, on a truly multiversal scale. abraxas' feat imo far exceeded magus's. ftr, i don't see the IG being able to deal with abraxas anymore than i think it could handle lucifer for much the same reason.....

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
Weren't you discussing a Lion vs a Tiger in one of these threads? stick out tongue


==============================


The Dormammu scan also revolves around the Multiversal Eternity,
which is 616 Eternity in its totality,
which = the infinite Multiverse of Alternate UniverseS.

616 Eternity/Infinity create/destroy entire UniverseS all day, everyday,
but the action takes place elsewhere obviously outside 616,
otherwise, how would an entire Reality survive,
if entire Realities are exploding/rebirthing withIN it.

An ENTIRE Reality would have to = the 616 in size,
so in essence the 616 Reality would be destroyed as well.

This is why this makes no sense if you push these "whole/entire"
Realities/UniverseS into 616.

In Marvel, entire Realities can't mesh together cause it'll lead to collapse.

This is what was happening during,
the Abraxas arc, the Chaos Engine Trilogy, and Ultraverse/Avengers.


==============================




"It always comes down to
conquering The Universe ... well, Multiverse in my case.


.................................................................................................




"I will erase you from existence ... and then ... All the Multiverse will follow!"


.................................................................................................




"This is the blood of one who is perhaps the single most powerful entity in all the Multiverse!"


.................................................................................................


Umar said that with This Eternity's power
the 616 Universe itself is a little corner of the cosmos.

She goes on to say that with 616 Eternity's power All the UniverseS are at her disposal:




smile


With this Eternity's power Umar also called the 616 Reality itself a little Universe:



.................................................................................................

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

and again, i reply with the same response i`ve given. ALL of that fits in with what i was saying about 616 eternity (and all eternities in the TRUE multiverse) are themselves multiverses. your original understanding of my position is what the issue was but hopefully i`ve clarified that.

the benefit to my way of thinking is pretty simple imo--it doesn`t require that i try and force the idea of a multiversal level eternity entity into anything when there is never any direct evidence that this `multi- eternity that was brought up in that abraxas arc is who is being discussed.

i don`t dispute this multi-eternity exists. i think it is the collection of ALL eternities. there is a form of shared consciousness among eternities, but i don`t think the multi-eternity from the ff arc has ever made an appearance or been referenced since that abraxas arc. imo, i don`t think there is any need to ever bring that entity into any discussion.

so, hopefully that is somewhat clear. it`s why i see the IG working across teh universes nestled inside 616 eternity, but not working in alternate versions of eternity as was said in the recent ff arc. it`s why i don`t believe (the ultraverse episode aside) that the IG can be seen as a multiversal level weapon but only universal. and that of course is why i sided with lucifer in that original thread and would side with abraxas were THAT thread opened.

whew.....

now, i`ve a question of my own--if you see eternity 616 as being limited to representing JUST the 616 universe, where do you fit in all the other dimensions like cyttorak`s cosmos, or the vishanti`s--recent arcs (like the magik ltd and even the serpent saga) have had some of those entities binding together to face dangers. if beings like cyttorak had nothing to do with us and our universe, why wouldn`t they just ignore any threat. and how do you explain instances of alternate versions of all of these other-dimensional entities--how do their alternate realms come into being......

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

now, i`ve a question of my own--

if you see eternity 616 as being limited to representing JUST the 616 universe,
where do you fit in all the other dimensions like cyttorak`s cosmos,
or the vishanti`s--recent arcs
(like the magik ltd and even the serpent saga)
have had some of those entities binding together to face dangers.
if beings like cyttorak had nothing to do with us and our universe,
why wouldn`t they just ignore any threat.

and how do you explain instances of alternate versions of all of these other-dimensional entities--
how do their alternate realms come into being......
Darn it Leo, reposting replies was not good, many of my links are duds. mad

Alternate characters are from Alternate Universes.

Vishanti don't care about 616 either.
(I have Aggy literally stating this about Strange's Universe)

I learned yesterday that even Pocket-Realms are outside 616,
while I was under the impression that wasn't the case.

I'll pull up the scans in a bit.

They are definitely part of the prime Multiverse,
but they are definitely located outside 616,
or more precisely in another Space adjacent to 616.

The only difference between a pocket-verse and a universe is size.
A universe is infinite, while a pocket-verse has boundaries.
They both occupy their own individual space in the Multiverse.

leonidas
i guess i'm still not following your interpretation of how marvel's cosmology works. so you think eternity represents JUST our little universe? and that the one strange saw, and dormmy conquered (and fought previously) are different versions somehow of the eternity that thanos replaced with the IG? i guess i don't get why you insist on forcing a distinction when scans (even your own, particularly the eternity/infinity scans stating our universe is nothing to them) when simply allowing for the fact that eternity 616 does NOT represent just a universe, but COUNTLESS universes. not ALTERNATE versions of those universes though.... those exist as other versions of eternity.

why does that not fit in your mind?

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Mr Master The only difference between a pocket-verse and a universe is size.
A universe is infinite, while a pocket-verse has boundaries.
They both occupy their own individual space in the Multiverse.

Nova's series established that the 616 universe has definite boundaries.

http://i46.tinypic.com/534kgh.jpg

(They later reached the Rip they were talking about)

leonidas
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Nova's series established that the 616 universe has definite boundaries.

http://i46.tinypic.com/534kgh.jpg

(They later reached the Rip they were talking about)

yeah, i was going to address some of his more particular points. but the edge of the universe has been mentioned a couple times i think. good scan though.

the entire disagreement hinges on the definition of 616. you (masters) sees it as defining a very limited single universe. i think 616 represents a much broader construction--a multiverse unto itself. i don't get WHY the need to differentiate though. you say my stance makes sense--what in marvel CONTRADICTS it and keeps it from being right?

Galan007
I'm impartial to this discussion one way or the other. However, various stories HAVE defined the 616 universe as more than just singular...

After Dormammu and Umar kill Eternity...

"DimensionS folding into themselves! Entire universeS being born, and collapsing into ruin! Yet I sense that all this is but a FRACTION of what Eternity is.":
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12349129_e0.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12349131_e1.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12349133_e2.jpg
---
And here it is flat-out stated as well...

"Eternity, the cosmic being whose essence encompasses the entirety of the MULTIVERSE.":
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12349134_e3.jpg


If 616 Eternity does not represent more than a single universe, how do you explain the above? Don't get me wrong, I understand both sides of the debate--but there are huge inconsistencies somewhere that need to be ironed out...

leonidas
yeah, i know it. my thought is he would say those scenes reference MULTI-ETERNITY--the one shown in the ff arc i think...... but that's just MY understanding of how he's explaining things and i could be wrong. like i said above, i just don't understand why it's so necessary that eternity 616 represent something as limited as a single universe when so much evidence exists that it represents so much more. maybe it's the definition of 616 and what it includes? i'm not sure......

Galan007
afaik, the only time "multi"Eternity has ever been specifically referenced on panel was in the Fantastic Four 2001 Annual--and since the scans I posted are from comics published post-2001, I suppose it is possible that it was "multi"Eternity that was being used... But if that were the case, you'd think the writers would have told the readers such an important fact. They had no problem making the clear distinction between Eternity/"multi"Eternity in the F4 Annual, after all. /shrug

Like I said: there are inconsistencies somewhere...

Endless Mike
I always saw it as there being a 616 universe within the 616 multiverse. Like New York City is a part of New York State.

As for Eternity, he is a fraction of Multi-Eternity but they are essentially the same being, just usually when Eternity is defeated it's just that fraction and not Multi-Eternity

leonidas
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I always saw it as there being a 616 universe within the 616 multiverse. Like New York City is a part of New York State.


almost exactly what i was saying..... the bit about eternity's defeat makes sense to me as well.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
Darn it Leo, reposting replies was not good, many of my links are duds. mad

Alternate characters are from Alternate Universes.

Vishanti don't care about 616 either.
(I have Aggy literally stating this about Strange's Universe)

I learned yesterday that even Pocket-Realms are outside 616,
while I was under the impression that wasn't the case.

I'll pull up the scans in a bit.

They are definitely part of the prime Multiverse,
but they are definitely located outside 616,
or more precisely in another Space adjacent to 616.

The only difference between a pocket-verse and a universe is size.
A universe is infinite, while a pocket-verse has boundaries.
They both occupy their own individual space in the Multiverse.

So alternates are from alternate 616 universes. I agree. But many what ifs happen as a result of different choices made by 616 characters. If that is true, that should lead to an alternate 616 universe. And it does. But, it leads to far far more in many cases. It also leads to alternate versions of many of the dimensions that regularly interact with the 616 universe like hell and Asgard and dormmys dimension and cyttoraks, etc.... How do you explain the spontaneous creation of all these other dimensions from a choice made in the 616? IMO when a choice is made the entire 616 multiverse is recreated. This is the same if any choice in any of the other dimensions that make up the 616 multiverse is made.

It also makes sense that none of those extra dimensional entities would care about our universe since it is simply a small piece of the greater 616 multiverse at large.

I agree btw that these other dimensions are obviously not part of the 616 universe. I don't see how you can say so definitively they are hanging around in space though as opposed to being part of a larger 616 multiverse which is personified in the person of 616 eternity.

basilisk
What about the Negative Zone? This was supposed to be the anti-matter counterpart of the positive universe. Clearly alternate versions of it were shown in What If, but then later it was retcon-implied that there was only one Negative Zone that led to all the different positive universes. Part of 616?

Then there is the Ultimate version of the Negative Zone, which doesn't fit into either pre or post Negative Zone retcon.

Or Limbo? Again seems to be only one in some stories, but there are alternate versions of Magik etc. running around too. But I think only one Immortus.

Mephisto's realm? Seems to be one in each multiverse. Agammotto's realm?

616 still seems to be a multiverse in itself because it has its own Asgard, Dark Dimension, hells, Reality Gem, IG etc - a "universe" with different "realities" within it. The alternate earths, Asgards, DD, and universal artifacts seem to be in their own multiverses and form part of a greater omniverse.

There was that interesting short in Dr Strange of LT showing all the different realities. Some far different than the familiar.

leonidas
Originally posted by basilisk
What about the Negative Zone? This was supposed to be the anti-matter counterpart of the positive universe. Clearly alternate versions of it were shown in What If, but then later it was retcon-implied that there was only one Negative Zone that led to all the different positive universes. Part of 616?

Then there is the Ultimate version of the Negative Zone, which doesn't fit into either pre or post Negative Zone retcon.

Or Limbo? Again seems to be only one in some stories, but there are alternate versions of Magik etc. running around too. But I think only one Immortus.

Mephisto's realm? Seems to be one in each multiverse. Agammotto's realm?

616 still seems to be a multiverse in itself because it has its own Asgard, Dark Dimension, hells, Reality Gem, IG etc - a "universe" with different "realities" within it. The alternate earths, Asgards, DD, and universal artifacts seem to be in their own multiverses and form part of a greater omniverse.

There was that interesting short in Dr Strange of LT showing all the different realities. Some far different than the familiar.

Yeah, IMO, all those realms you mentioned are nestled within 616 eternity/ multiverse.... To say they are all independent and simply exist in some....void sems very.....inelegant to me and contrary to what scans have shown.

I think at least some of the problem is a result of the term 616. I think it can be used to define both a universe where the heroes live, and the multiverse that in encompassed by the 616 version of eternity. Seems the easiest explanation to me and it agrees with all the facts shown THUS far....

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

i guess i'm still not following your interpretation of how marvel's cosmology works.
so you think eternity represents JUST our little universe?
and that the one strange saw, and dormmy conquered
(and fought previously)
are different versions somehow of the eternity that thanos replaced with the IG?
i guess i don't get why you insist on forcing a distinction when scans (even your own, particularly the eternity/infinity scans stating our
universe is nothing to them) when simply allowing for the fact that
eternity 616 does NOT represent just a universe, but COUNTLESS
universes. not ALTERNATE versions of those universes though....
those exist as other versions of eternity.
I've always said that 616 Eternity/Infinity possess the power
of the infinite prime Multiverse of alternate Universes.

That's what all those scans represent. (Dormy/Entropy-Genis/Strange)

It is true,
Eternity/Infinity's consciousness does span the entirety of the prime Multiverse.

This is the perfect example:

This is Earth-82432 (an alternate entire Universe/Eternity)

When it's form (physical Universe-82432) was nullified,
Strange/Jean/Surfer were going to attempt to re-create the physical universe that was there.

This Alternate Eternity (definitely NOT 616 - definitely NOT the Multiverse)
spoke as though it was the Multiverse, made up of nigh-infinite Universes.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12356535_ET_is_all_ET.jpg

"of the number of Aspects that comprise my Totality."

"I am the only Aspect to succumb to death."


-----------------------------------------------------------------


We know without a doubt that this Alternate Eternity was speaking about OTHER
Eternitys when he said "infinite number of Aspects that comprise my Totality."

Because at the bottom of the same page Strange says:

"Eternity spoke of infinite universeS beyond this.


-----------------------------------------------------------------


What does this tell us?

Any Eternity = any Eternity in terms of consciousness.

They're all one consciousness. One Essence.


-----------------------------------------------------------------


This does not mean they share the same form,
as in, non on them embody the Multiverse entire,
otherwise the Multiverse would've been erased when this Alternate got rubbed out,
likewise Thanos would've replaced the actual Multiverse instead of just the 616 Universe.

Basically, this is why there's an Eternity/Infinity for every separate Universe.

All Marvel entire Universes withIN 3D Space-Time are embodied by an Eternity/Infinity,
but evidently, they all share the same consciousness.


-----------------------------------------------------------------


My point is my friend, that when Eternity/Infinity speak, (from 616 to whichever)
it seems they can take on a Multiversal tone due to the seeming fact
that they are all one and the same consciously speaking.

Imo. smile

Originally posted by leonidas


why does that not fit in your mind?
Leo, if you wanna discuss this, let's refrain from comments such as these.

I already told you I understood what you said and I even said I like it in the vs thread.

I don't agree with it doesn't mean it's beyond my comprehension.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Nova's series established that the 616 universe has definite boundaries.
Those are two guys talking.
While on panel we've 616 Eternity and all Eternity have been described as Infinite by the essence of the life Captain Universe.
(this is also while the artist artistically illustrated what he was saying)

Other instances as well.

Originally posted by Endless Mike


(They later reached the Rip they were talking about)
Post the scans for me cause I don't believe I have that issue.

I'd like to know what happened.

Also, what issues are those so I can get the full story.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007

I'm impartial to this discussion one way or the other.
However,
various stories HAVE defined the 616 universe as more than just singular...

After Dormammu and Umar kill Eternity...
I've posted those scans forever friend.

But I'd like to know where in that arc was it stated/defined
that the 616 Universe is more than just singular?

I remember this definition:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/12357016_DormyMulti1.jpg

"It always comes down to conquering the Universe,

well ... MULTIVERSE in my case"


(Dormammu actually differenciates the Two terms)


------------------------------------------------


My friends, with this new mid-2012 logic yall are introducing we'll
never know when a Marvel story pertains to the 616 Universe/Eternity,
or the Multiverse that houses the 616 Universe/Eternity.

Originally posted by Galan007


---
And here it is flat-out stated as well...

"Eternity, the cosmic being whose essence encompasses the entirety of the MULTIVERSE.":

I'm not surprised, since Entrpoy/Genis also rubbed out the Microverse,
which is located in the Universe created by "the Makers" way outside the 616 Universe.

And since he rubbed out the Microverse,
then he rubbed out the Multiverse of alternate Universes.

The only type of Multiverse that there is actually.

Galan007
They still conquered/killed the multiverse by killing Eternity alone. Do you think that was intended to "multi"Eternity, and the writers simply didn't tell us?

Makes sense, I suppose.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
I've always said that 616 Eternity/Infinity possess the power
of the infinite prime Multiverse of alternate Universes.

That's what all those scans represent. (Dormy/Entropy-Genis/Strange)

It is true,
Eternity/Infinity's consciousness does span the entirety of the prime Multiverse.

This is the perfect example:

This is Earth-82432 (an alternate entire Universe/Eternity)

When it's form (physical Universe-82432) was nullified,
Strange/Jean/Surfer were going to attempt to re-create the physical universe that was there.

This Alternate Eternity (definitely NOT 616 - definitely NOT the Multiverse)

not THE multiverse. A multiverse. each eternity in that famous page from that ff annual equals a mutliverse. the 616 eternity represents OUR multiverse, while the 'dead' eternity represents a 'dead' ALTERNATE multiverse.

all the dialogue fits.... especially THIS part:



imo that's because he WAS a multiverse unto himself.



again, that fits perfectly with what i've been proposing. he WAS referencing other eternities. just that each one makes for a multiverse.

with the way you're defining it, it seems to me like you are retroactively using ideas about the cosmology that didn't exist at the time. in particular the notion of a shared consciousness with a 'totlality' that represents ALL eternities in the multiverse.




precisely. thanos ruled only the 616 eternity and the multiverse that made IT up. it why the IG will work anywhere in the 616 eternity (like that dimension magus was in) but will NOT work (imo) in a TRULY alternate version of the 616 multiverse.



it just feels.....needlessly complex to me is all.




huh? it was a legit question. it wasn't meant as an insult in any way. c'mon, you know i'm more clear than that when i take a shot at someone. big grin

i'm ACTUALLY not understanding what doesn't fit in your mind as regards my theory. every single scan you've shown actually supports what i've been saying, but clearly you see a stumbling block in the theory that i am missing and i legitimately want to know what it is.

why are you so positive that 616 eternity is NOT a multiverse and instead is limited to repping just a SINGLE universe?

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007

They still conquered/killed the multiverse by killing Eternity alone.

Do you think that was intended to "multi"Eternity,
and the writers simply didn't tell us?
They did tell you it was perhaps the most powerful entity in the Multiverse"

Aside from throwing in the term "Multiverse" almost ten times,
and dialogue referencing 100's and even millions of UniverseS.

But if yall stick that onto the 616 Universe
that goes overlooked.

That aside Galan ...

There is no "multi" Eternity that I know of.
That was Captain Universe that labelled All of Eternity as "multi" ...
but the very same splash page calls "multi" Eternity ...
just "Eternity" ... and just ... "The Universe"

That tells me that 616 Eternity
is the power behind the infinite Multiverse of alternate universes,
due to the fact
that it is the center/beginning from which everything blossoms in Space-Time.

So no "multi" ...

Just Eternity. One for the Prime Reality,
and one for every alternate Reality that derives from 616,
which includes diverged/parallel & past/future Timelines
which in-turn makes the entirety of the Multiverse.

Now here's the twist.

From all I've read and understand,
616 Eternity/Infinity have been portrayed as the center of all creation,
the location from which everything sprigs forth,
the starting point of the Big Bang.

So while there is NO on panel or bio that literally states that 616
Eternity is greater than the other Eternitys, because we know about
616 Eternity and its significance to even the Omniverse plus what
has been shown on panel of its true power, it stands to reason that
616 Eternity > all other Eternitys. Or rather perhaps 616 Eternity =
the power of the Multiverse. (this includes Infinity of course)

So while they may posses this status/power,
still being the embodiment of the 616 Universe alone,
but connected intrinsically to all other Alternates as one consciousness,
being their father/creator still attached to the umbilical cord (Nexus) sortaspeak.

Imo.

leonidas
Originally posted by Galan007
They still conquered/killed the multiverse by killing Eternity alone. Do you think that was intended to "multi"Eternity, and the writers simply didn't tell us?

Makes sense, I suppose.

but my problem is that is somehow assumes the raeder knows about this multi-entity to begin with and moreover, a multi-entity is never mentioned in any way. the assumption that 616 eternity is a multiverse unto itself clarifies that issue and comes with the bonus prize of being supported--no interpretation or prior knowledge necessary--on panel.

[email protected]



confused

there arn't 2 eternities..... there is only one--the 616 eternity. that eternity embodies a multiverse that houses the 616 universe.....

as for the story--any story that is set in marvel is understood (unless otherwise stated) to be taking place in the 616 universe. i'm not sure how the 2 could be confused at all.

Endless Mike
http://marvel.com/universe/Knowhere

Mr Master
^^^ Thanks Mike, I'll read those relevant issues and get back to ya.


Originally posted by leonidas

not THE multiverse. A multiverse.
each eternity in that famous page from that ff annual equals a mutliverse.
the 616 eternity represents OUR multiverse,

while the 'dead' eternity represents a 'dead' ALTERNATE multiverse.

all the dialogue fits.... especially THIS part:
I don't think I can debate this any further.

My friend, you're taking my evidence and twisting the text and context.

No where in that FF Annual does it even remotely suggest
each of those Eternities is a "Multiverse"
in fact, it's quite clear they were a Universe each:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/12362470_ET_is_a_UNI.jpg

---------------------------------------------------

The 'dead' Alternate Eternity is Earth-82432 (Korvac's What If) Reality.

It's not a Multiverse, it definitely a single Universe that was nullified on panel.
Originally posted by leonidas

imo that's because he WAS a multiverse unto himself.
I don't see how you see that,
when the entire Alternate Universe that is Eternity-82432
clearly said it was ONLY an "Aspect" of a "Totality" ...

If the "Aspect" is dead ... and you say it WAS a multiverse unto itself,
then what "Totality" is it referring too?

it can't be itself, because itself is the ENTIRE 82432-Universe Korvac erased.

+++++

Logic dictates
this Alternate Eternity is speaking about the Multiverse of alternate Universes + the Prime reality,
when it said "infinite universes that comprise my Totality" ...

Which leads to the obvious good friend,
and that is All Eternity/Infinitys share the same consciousness.

Therefore all can speak as though all are all (the Multiverse)
and all know what all know.
Originally posted by leonidas

again, that fits perfectly with what i've been proposing.
he WAS referencing other eternities.
just that each one makes for a multiverse.
He did was referencing other Eternitys,
where you read he included those Eternitys were Multiverses alludes me.
Originally posted by leonidas

precisely. thanos ruled only the 616 eternity and the multiverse that made IT up.
it why the IG will work anywhere in the 616 eternity (like that dimension magus was
in)

but will NOT work (imo) in a TRULY alternate version of the 616 multiverse.
That's your opinion that Magus was in a Universe MANY UniverseS away
yet still inside 616.

The Nexus of Realities, or the CrossRoads (Dimensional Corridor)
leads to other UniverseS outside 616.

That's why any argument against that fails.

Galactus and friends would not have needed to take that treacherous road
to reach a pocket within the 616 Reality.

-----------------------------------------------------


As for the IG not working outside 616, besides the Magus on panel feat,
the gems worked just fine not just in another Universe ... but another Multiverse.
Originally posted by leonidas

it just feels.....needlessly complex to me is all.
To me it's simple.

Look at it this way.

The Multiverse is an infinite spectrum.

At the center of this spectrum is the prime Reality Eternity-616 (Man's Universe or the Earth Universe)
and surrounding 616 are the Infinity of Alternate Eternitys/Universes as well.

(All of these Universes (616 & Alternates) share the same 3 Spatial Dimensions
and obey roughly the same natural laws.

Let's call that bunch the "center group" ...

Now ...

As you move away from that "center group" you bump into OTHER UniverseS,
which still have 3 Spatial Dimensions but where natural laws may be different.
Like the Negative Zone or the Reality of Arkon's Pole Machus amongst others.

Now ...

As you move further outward you bump into "Pocket UniverseS."
These Realities are home to the Patheons as well as Demons like Mephisto,
also Mystical deities and entities of significant power.

(you can access these realm easily via inter-dimensional portals but that doesn't mean they're next door.)

Now ...

As you move even further outward you bump into other UniverseS
with a # of Spacial Dimensions which is senseless. These Realities looked warped to 3 D senses.
Out here there's Universes like:
Tiboro's Sixth Dimension,
Tazza's Domain
or Nightmares' Dream-verse
and even Dormy's Dark Dimension.

All these Universes are subject to a commonality of concepts.

Hence ... the Prime Multiverse that houses the 616 Eternity/Universe.

+++++

That's about it, that's where the Prime Mutliverse in it's entirety ends,
and where the rest of the Omniverse begins.

According to Dr Strange's explanation on panel with artistic images of this explanation.

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

why are you so positive that 616 eternity is NOT a multiverse

and instead is limited to repping just a SINGLE universe?
I told ya I enjoyed your theories true debater but I gotta go with Marvel on this one:

If you have definitive Marvel explanations that counter all I'm about to post,
please good friend post the New established Handbook descriptions,
cause all the New Handbooks I have up to 2011 haven't changed anything.

Anyway ...

This is from the Marvel official Handbook 2006:



"A Universe is a SINGLE-Dimension Reality, such as Earth 616,
the Mainstream Marvel Universe.

The Multiverse ...
is the collection of Alternate Dimensions with a similar nature and Universal hierarchy.

Earth 616 and Alternates seen in the Marvel Universe
(which include being like the Watcher, Eternity etc) are withIN the SAME Multiverse.

Realms LACKING this hierarchy of Power are OUTSIDE of the Multiverse.

The Realms with a Multiverse are divided into Divergent Earths,
who share a common history and Diverge at a specific point,

and Alternate Earths,
who are similar, but posses many inherent differences"


=======================================


That says it all, but the 2008 GLossary of definitions is more technical:


=======================================


Earth 616: (616 Universe)



"Core Continuum designation given to the Prime Earth of the Marvel Universe,
Reality from which most Alternate Earths derive"


......................................................................................................


Multiverse: (group of alternate/divergent/parallel UniverseS)



"Group of Alternate UniverseS containing the same Hierarchy,
including Eternity, Infinity and the Watchers"


......................................................................................................


Alternate Earth: (Alternate Universe)



"A World resembling Earth which coexist with Earth-616 in another Dimensional Space"


......................................................................................................


Divergent Earth: (Divergent Universe)



"Alternate Earth which was once parallel to Earth-616,
until a change altered how it's history unfolded."


......................................................................................................


Parallel World: (Parallel Universe)



"A World that exists in another Dimension
whose Reality never diverged from but is parallel to Reality Earth-616"


=======================================


My friends ...

... the term ... "Dimension" ... in Marvel,
stands for "Universe/Realm containing Space, Time, Matter and Energy"





On Panel just as well:




......................................................................................................


Now a "Pocket Dimension" is different than an actual "Dimension" ...

... it is NOT an entire Universe like the one Magus was in Many Universes away:

Pocket Dimension: (pocket universe)



"Universe whose Spatial size is limited."


=======================================


So as you can see,
Earth-616 (or the 616 Universe/Eternity) is a SINGLE Reality, nothing more.

The Multiverse is made up of Alternate/Divergent/Parallel entire standalone UniverseS.

You're a reasonable man, but I'll respect your opinion regardless.

Igniz
^ Hmmm? I remember at one time in a forum were this was also debated on the nature of Eternity.Simply put, those scans aren't really wrong in anything what was stated.Its basically how we defined what or how a Multiverse function.I remember the FFAnnual2001 were Earth-616 was regarded as the "Prime Reality".The word "Prime" itself could mean "First" or "Most Important".But in this case, both can be use to define Earth-616.

Simply put, Eternity-616 is only a singular Universe and is only one of the entirety of Multi-Eternity.But lets label it as the most important of Multi-Eternity's entirety.I even once heard that destroying Earth-616 would also mean destroying the Multiverse itself.Only problem is, I've never seen this stated on panel in a comic.At least this is what I got from the OHOTMU Guide to the Alternate Universes and FFAnnual2001.As for the Defenders arc, I simply interpreted it as Dormammu and Umar pawning 616 Eternity.And after doing so, 616 Eternity's blood acted as a doorway for Dormammu to go inside Multi-Eternity and to finally usurp power from the abstract entity of time.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^^ Thanks Mike, I'll read those relevant issues and get back to ya.

If you really want to reconcile it, you could say that there are many billions of light-years of space filled with stars, planets, and galaxies, then you get to the Rip, and the energy/torn space-time in it goes on forever, thus making the universe "infinite" as the Rip is part of it.

But if you ask me that sounds like reaching.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
I told ya I enjoyed your theories true debater but I gotta go with Marvel on this one:

If you have definitive Marvel explanations that counter all I'm about to post,
please good friend post the New established Handbook descriptions,
cause all the New Handbooks I have up to 2011 haven't changed anything.

Anyway ...

This is from the Marvel official Handbook 2006:



"A Universe is a SINGLE-Dimension Reality, such as Earth 616,
the Mainstream Marvel Universe.

The Multiverse ...
is the collection of Alternate Dimensions with a similar nature and Universal hierarchy.

Earth 616 and Alternates seen in the Marvel Universe
(which include being like the Watcher, Eternity etc) are withIN the SAME Multiverse.

Realms LACKING this hierarchy of Power are OUTSIDE of the Multiverse.

The Realms with a Multiverse are divided into Divergent Earths,
who share a common history and Diverge at a specific point,

and Alternate Earths,
who are similar, but posses many inherent differences"


=======================================


That says it all, but the 2008 GLossary of definitions is more technical:


=======================================


Earth 616: (616 Universe)



"Core Continuum designation given to the Prime Earth of the Marvel Universe,
Reality from which most Alternate Earths derive"


......................................................................................................


Multiverse: (group of alternate/divergent/parallel UniverseS)



"Group of Alternate UniverseS containing the same Hierarchy,
including Eternity, Infinity and the Watchers"


......................................................................................................


Alternate Earth: (Alternate Universe)



"A World resembling Earth which coexist with Earth-616 in another Dimensional Space"


......................................................................................................


Divergent Earth: (Divergent Universe)



"Alternate Earth which was once parallel to Earth-616,
until a change altered how it's history unfolded."


......................................................................................................


Parallel World: (Parallel Universe)



"A World that exists in another Dimension
whose Reality never diverged from but is parallel to Reality Earth-616"


=======================================


My friends ...

... the term ... "Dimension" ... in Marvel,
stands for "Universe/Realm containing Space, Time, Matter and Energy"





On Panel just as well:




......................................................................................................


Now a "Pocket Dimension" is different than an actual "Dimension" ...

... it is NOT an entire Universe like the one Magus was in Many Universes away:

Pocket Dimension: (pocket universe)



"Universe whose Spatial size is limited."


=======================================


So as you can see,
Earth-616 (or the 616 Universe/Eternity) is a SINGLE Reality, nothing more.

The Multiverse is made up of Alternate/Divergent/Parallel entire standalone UniverseS.

You're a reasonable man, but I'll respect your opinion regardless.

Lol. Thanks. I liked your explanation above. THAT is what was missing. The spectrum idea is one I can get better than what you were saying before.

Anyway, you very well may be right. The biggest issue I have is that it conflicts with on panel evidence and forces you to try and interpret things and try and decide case by case when eternity is speaking as a multiversal consciousness or simply acting in its role as a universal level abstract. That's a big drawback IMO as it requires readers to know there even IS a multiversal level of consciousness because there is never any explicit mention of it. That what if scan is what-25 years old? Too much far ranging evidence for me and requires too much prior knowledge on readers behalfs.

Anyway, you said post proof of my way of thinking. I think the strange scan speaks volumes and the dormmy scan as well but you interpret those differently. Since we're looking at bios though, here's eternity's--

http://marvel.com/universe/Eternity

HE CONTROLS EVERYTHING IN ALL PLAINS OF EXISTENCE. If as you say eternity is just a single universe, how is it that it has multiple plains of existence, a term that can also mean dimensions and realities? It also says he controls everything EXCEPT THE LIVING TRIBUNAL and that his origin and nature are UNKNOWN and UNKNOWABLE.

Sounds like a marvel cop out to me.... wink

In any event, I could go through your post and point out the problems and inconsistencies I see, and how much of what you said could be seen to support BOTH our thoughts, but I don't think I'm budging you on this anyway so I'll pass. The definitions you gave are good ideally speaking, but are hardly used consistently across marvel. Maybe if they were, there wouldn't be this problem.

I did like the term megaverse to represent all versions of eternity and to represent all multiverses. Which to my way of thinking are of course the same thing....

Always fun.

leonidas
incidentally mrm, i never viewed this as a debate. more a discussion. i actually see the issue as being nearly unresolvable and dependent almost wholly upon the writer's view of the cosmology. so many changes recently are evident of that (chaos king's origins, then his apparent re-origin as a servant of oblivion is just one among MANY recent changes). even in that cap universe scan you posted the cap says BOUNDLESS universe, but according to the nova series and another scan, the universe is NOT boundless. terminology is used and misused frequently and certain writers seem to like to cause sh!t just to stir things up.

no consistent theory will ever completely apply, no matter how much we may wish it. least imo

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

Lol. Thanks. I liked your explanation above.
THAT is what was missing.
The spectrum idea is one I can get better than what you were saying before.
thumb up
Originally posted by leonidas

Anyway, you very well may be right. The biggest issue I have is
that it conflicts with on panel evidence and forces you to try and
interpret things and try and decide case by case when eternity is
speaking as a multiversal consciousness or simply acting in its role
as a universal level abstract. That's a big drawback IMO as it
requires readers to know there even IS a multiversal level of
consciousness because there is never any explicit mention of it.
That what if scan is what-25 years old? Too much far ranging
evidence for me and requires too much prior knowledge on readers
behalfs.
I agree somewhat, I disagree somewhat.

Imo, the on panel evidence shows us that 616 Eternity/Infinity has
been portrayed as possessing the power of the Multiverse of infinite universes.

(something that's not in plain english in the bios)

The Strange scan is old, but it still makes sense imo,
cause if you think bout Leo,
Eternity really is supposed to be just One Eternity, that has expanded into many
and while the many Eternitys may house their own piece of the Multiverse,
as a collective consciousness they're in-tuned with each other.

We don't have to further than that.

Only to add
that it seems on panel 616 Eternity/Infinity are Multiversal powers at times,
not that they physically embody The Multiverse,
but that they possess the power of that collective consciousness
being the father/mother of it all.

I'm speculating to make sense out of the Strange scan.

But it's either: (imo)

1) ... 616 Eternity/infinity
possess the power of the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum
and can therefore hold entire Universes in a hand ...

2) ... Or it was the representation of the actual Multiverse in the form of Eternity.

3) ... Dr Strange was being symbolic ...

4) ... Or, it doesn't make sense cause 616 Eternity is a single Dimension/Universe.


I choose ... 1)
Originally posted by leonidas

Anyway, you said post proof of my way of thinking.

Since we're looking at bios though, here's eternity's--

http://marvel.com/universe/Eternity

HE CONTROLS EVERYTHING IN ALL PLAINS OF EXISTENCE.
In Marvel ... "Planes of Existence" in order: (physical first)

the Physical
the Etheric
the Astral
the Spiritual

These are "levels of existence" withIN a Reality.

"Planes of Reality" ... refers to other Dimensions/Universes.
Originally posted by leonidas

I don't think I'm budging you on this anyway so I'll pass.

Always fun.
Same here good friend. There's not much to add to either side.

I enjoyed your input always. You made me do homework, and not everyone does.

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

incidentally mrm, i never viewed this as a debate.
more a discussion.
i actually see the issue as being nearly unresolvable and dependent
almost wholly upon the writer's view of the cosmology. so many
changes recently are evident of that (chaos king's origins, then his
apparent re-origin as a servant of oblivion is just one among MANY
recent changes).
thumb up
Originally posted by leonidas

even in that cap universe scan you posted the cap says
BOUNDLESS universe, but according to the nova series and another
scan, the universe is NOT boundless.
I'm looking into this as we speak.

I've already comes across some info,
that the "Crunch" is not the end of the Universe,
but simply the point from where 616 is expanding. (like the outer rim of something)

Galan007
Galactus defined the Crunch as: "the energy surge generated by the expanding universe.":
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12368921_g1.jpg

srug

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up

I'm looking into this as we speak.

I've already comes across some info,
that the "Crunch" is not the end of the Universe,
but simply the point from where 616 is expanding. (like the outer rim of something)

i think the crunch was pretty clearly defined, no? do you mean the rip?

Astner
Considering the amount of authors and editors that have worked on designing the Marvel universe, their demography, and the time period it's spanning conflicting information should be expected.

Now the best thing we can do as analysts is to pinpoint as many of these paradoxes as possible and find a systemized way of prioritizing certain information, based on relevance, references, and so on.

Mr Master
^^ thumb up

Originally posted by leonidas

i think the crunch was pretty clearly defined, no?

do you mean the rip?
thumb up

Galan007
These scans loosely define the Rip...


"The Rip... A zone where space-time is collapsing. The laws of physics no longer apply.":
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12380436_r1.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12380437_r2.jpg

---

"The Rip... ALL space and time meets here. ALL dimensions of reality. So people come here from all space and time. All species. They come to study, to inspect. They come to observe the end of the universe from closest available platform.":
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12380438_r3.jpg

---

The Rip exists on the very edge of the universe:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12380449_r4.jpg

leonidas
Originally posted by Galan007
These scans loosely define the Rip...


"The Rip... A zone where space-time is collapsing. The laws of physics no longer apply.":
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12380436_r1.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12380437_r2.jpg

---

"The Rip... ALL space and time meets here. ALL dimensions of reality. So people come here from all space and time. All species. They come to study, to inspect. They come to observe the end of the universe from closest available platform.":
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12380438_r3.jpg

---

The Rip exists on the very edge of the universe:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12380449_r4.jpg

lol

the terminology that is thrown around all the time cracks me up. ALL dimensions of reality? somehow different from all planes of existence?? yeah, this can never be definitively solved.... cool scans though.

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas
lol

ALL dimensions of reality?

somehow different from all planes of existence??

yeah, this can never be definitively solved...

I have one on panel example on hand, (I have to tap my dvds to get more)
that defines the "Planes of Existence" in Marvel.
It's actually the same as in the real world. (in theory or course)

Physical Planes = tangible reality or the "physical universe"

Etheric Planes = subconscious reality or the "mind"

Astral Planes = spiritual reality or the "essence of your being"


----------------------------------------


Basically ... different states of being/existence withIN a Reality.

(body - mind - soul)

----------------------------------------


Starhawk battles Korvac on "Every Plane of Existence"

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/12386565_Planes_of_Existence_1.jpg


I'll cut right to what "every plane of existence" is here:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/12386566_Planes_of_existence_2.jpg

"I have subdued your physical ...

I have defeated Aleta on the plane of subconscious ...

and now, in the astral void, your spirit is at my mercy"


-------------------------------------------------


I'll get you some examples on "Planes of Reality" later on.

leonidas
hmm, just thought of something else. you've said that the realm of chaos and order is not part of the purview of 616 eternity. and yet, when adam went before the lt, eternity says that he represents all there is in the universe and adam says that some of the most powerful beings in the universe are present at the hearing. he also sets himself and eternity beyond all others present. so you think chaos and order represent those concepts in the 616, but do so from a place OUTSIDE 616--in your view that would mean outside eternity's realm/universe, no?

to me, their realm, like the concepts themselves, are simply part of 616 eternity.

you also said something similar as regards the demon realms--cyttorak's, dormmy's, hell, etc. but during the fear itself arc we saw all those demons come toegether in hell (which i think even you acknowledged--at least at one point) had some special relationship to the 616 universe. why would all these outer realms be concerned about what was happening in one universe when they have their own to concern themselves with? the gods (also different dimensions) showed something similar when they were in that giant tower thing that the lt built iirc.

to me, it all makes sense. ALL the realms i mentioned are part of eternity 616. just wondering how you reconcile all those things.

Endless Mike
Well 616 is supposed to be the "keystone" or "core" reality, so it makes sense for people to be concerned about what happens in it.

Mr Master
^^^ thumb up Sometimes there's concern for 616, like the Omniverse depends on it,
sometimes there are characters who don't care about 616's demise.

It really depends on the writers with this one nowadays.

Originally posted by leonidas

you've said that the realm of chaos and order
is not part of the purview of 616 eternity.
I never said that. (that was back in the day when they the so-called "Magik universe"wink

Remember big G and in-Betwener ended up there after their fight.

Mistress Death, on the other hand does though.
Originally posted by leonidas

you also said something similar as regards the demon realms--
cyttorak's, dormmy's, hell, etc. but during the fear itself arc we
saw all those demons come toegether in hell (which i think even
you acknowledged--at least at one point) had some special
relationship to the 616 universe. why would all these outer realms
be concerned about what was happening in one universe when they
have their own to concern themselves with? the gods (also
different dimensions) showed something similar when they were in
that giant tower thing that the lt built iirc.
Cyttorak, Dormmy, and any other Demon or Pantheon
are located in Pocket-Dimensions outside 616 but withIN the prime
Multiverse that houses the infinite alternate/parallel realities.

These Pocket-Universes
surround the infinite alternate/parallel worlds as well as 616.

I would actually have to re-read that "Fear' arc,
cause right now I don't recall jack.

So, I'll have to get back to ya.
Originally posted by leonidas

to me, it all makes sense.
ALL the realms i mentioned are part of eternity 616.
I respect that. But according to Marvel Comics, that's not so.

The previous page explains that thoroughly true debater.

leonidas
how come you keep referencing pocket dimensions for the likes of mephisto et al,? i'm not sure the dark dimension could have classified as pocket, nor the crimson cosmos. in fact, collectively (including hel and even surtur's realm) have been referred to as splinter realms. so is it your belief that eternity holds no sway in these other dimensions?

and how are you defining prime multiverse? what is outside your prime multiverse?

re: order/chaos. so you think they exist withIN the 616 universe? or they have a realm outside 616 and represent 616 from their outside realm? are order and chaos part of eternity imo?

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

how come you keep referencing pocket dimensions for the likes of mephisto et al,?

i'm not sure the dark dimension could have classified as pocket,
nor the crimson cosmos.
Leo, good friend, you know me. smile

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12465011_Pocket-verse_2.jpg


Notice how he says ... "that surround Man's World" ...

That's directly from the explanation from the prior page.

In the other On panel instance with Dr Strange,
where they're describing the Multiverse thoroughly in detail,
they said the "Pocket-Universes/Dimensions"
surround the center of the Infinite alternate universes.

Originally posted by leonidas

so is it your belief that eternity holds no sway in these other dimensions?
I did say they are part of the Multiverse of infinite alternate universes.

Eternity showed up in Nightmare's pocket-dimension and smacked em up.
Originally posted by leonidas

and how are you defining prime multiverse?
what is outside your prime multiverse?
I defined it as clearly as I could via the "Infinite Spectrum" analogy.

I wish I could take credit for such understanding poetic harmony,
but actually those are mostly Roy Thomas & RJM Lofficer's words,
which are the writers of that Dr Strange issue.

(scans later cause I gotta dig)

Originally posted by leonidas

what is outside your prime multiverse?
Other MultiverseS.
Originally posted by leonidas

re: order/chaos.
so you think they exist withIN the 616 universe?
or they have a realm outside 616 and represent 616 from their outside realm?
are order and chaos part of eternity imo?
Leo, I never mentioned them, but I can address this again.

Order & Chaos used to reside in the so called "Magick Universe."

It was the Universe Galactus and the In-Betweener ended up in
when they battled in that SS issue:







As far as I know, that's still in-affect.



Order & Chaos have been depicted hanging out with Eternity,
but their "Magick Realm" is still referenced in their bio:

(OHotMU - 2008)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12465061_Order_Magick.jpg

Mr Master
The analogy from the previous page with the scans. smile

================================


Look at it this way.

The Multiverse is an infinite spectrum.

At the center of this spectrum is the prime Reality Eternity-616 (Man's Universe or the Earth Universe)
and surrounding 616 are the Infinity of Alternate Eternitys/Universes as well.

(All of these Universes (616 & Alternates) share the same 3 Spatial Dimensions
and obey roughly the same natural laws.

Let's call that bunch the "center group" ...

Now ...

As you move away from that "center group" you bump into OTHER UniverseS,
which still have 3 Spatial Dimensions but where natural laws may be different.
Like the Negative Zone or the Reality of Arkon's Pole Machus amongst others.

Now ...

As you move further outward you bump into "Pocket UniverseS."
These Realities are home to the Patheons as well as Demons like Mephisto,
also Mystical deities and entities of significant power.

(you can access these realm easily via inter-dimensional portals but that doesn't mean they're next door.)

Now ...

As you move even further outward you bump into other UniverseS
with a # of Spacial Dimensions which is senseless. These Realities looked warped to 3 D senses.
Out here there's Universes like:
Tiboro's Sixth Dimension,
Tazza's Domain
or Nightmares' Dream-verse
and even Dormy's Dark Dimension.

All these Universes are subject to a commonality of concepts.

Hence ... the Prime Multiverse that houses the 616 Eternity/Universe.

+++++

That's about it, that's where the Prime Mutliverse in it's entirety ends,
and where the rest of the Omniverse begins.


================================


According to Dr Strange's explanation on panel with artistic images of this explanation.

(below)

================================


http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12465293_Multiverse1.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12465295_Multiverse2.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12465296_Multiverse3.jpg


This gives the above more substance, and it's all I'm gonna do cause imo it's enough.

In the scans above,
you notice Nightmare's Universe is WAY outside not only 616,
but even further outside than the Pocket Universes of the Demons/Pantheons
in relation to distance from the center where the infinite Alternate UniverseS
surround the 616 Universe.
It's in the company of the 6th Dimension.

Well, within an actual story, I have Dweller clarifying/supporting that,
actually, it's even higher ... on panel:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12465297_MU_on_panel_1.jpg

"Nightmare ... we both come from Everinnye, a Universe higher than the Sixth Dimension."


(from the perfect reference chart above,
this Universe should be at the border of the Multiverse,
WAAAAY outside 616
and even the clump of Infinite Alternate UniverseS surrounding the 616 Universe)

leonidas
bump in case anyone else feels like weighing in with an opinion or feels like chatting about changes they think are taking place.....like skyfather's being able to end the multiverse.... shifty

JakeTheBank
I never understood why people get so agitated about beings doing things outside their alleged sphere of influence in the grand scope of things as far as tier hierarchy.

If it serves the story...why does it matter?

And as far as a battleboard/feat mentality goes...feats are feats and on-panel evidence is on-panel evidence.

Virtually every character ever has their "average" and then has their moments when they go above and beyond said average. It's how the medium of comics, specifically superhero ones, work.

Endless Mike
Here's my attempt at a map: http://i.imgur.com/DfOnxdP.jpg

TheGodKiller
^Why are the infinity gems in the omniverse category?

Endless Mike
Based on the Malibu/Rune arc, I think.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Based on the Malibu/Rune arc, I think.
Standalone. Ever since then, it has been solidly confirmed that the Infinity Gems are restricted to their native universe.

basilisk
Originally posted by Mr Master
Order & Chaos have been depicted hanging out with Eternity,
but their "Magick Realm" is still referenced in their bio:

I just like how Lord Chaos and Master Order are like best buds - always hanging out together, doing stuff together, making things together, concerned for each other's well-being. Seem to agree on most things. Not bad for complete opposites. Maybe they feel some sort of kinship because they are both just floating heads and one is a deformed fugly and the other one is bald and has no ears.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Standalone. Ever since then, it has been solidly confirmed that the Infinity Gems are restricted to their native universe.

Fairly certain Thanos' comments in the original IG saga and The End kind of contradict that. MrMaster also has the IG pretty high up on the cosmic hierarchy. But of course the map is mostly my interpretation.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Fairly certain Thanos' comments in the original IG saga and The End kind of contradict that. MrMaster also has the IG pretty high up on the cosmic hierarchy. But of course the map is mostly my interpretation.
Not really. All of that was mostly hyperbole. Barring the Ultraforce incident, there has never been an actual demonstration of the Infinity Gems operating in a separate universe, or on a trans-universal scale. MrM's opinion has also been disputed by people like Leonidas, Galan007 and OneDumbG0. So it's not that clear cut.

Anyways, Thanos' comments should be taken with a grain of salt, especially when we're literally shown on-panel the universal limitations of the gems, when they got blown up just trying to push back another universe.

Endless Mike
There's the fact an incomplete IG effortlessly deflected the multiverse-busting UN, the fact that the LT said Adam Warlock was a threat to all reality with it (whereas Thanos was content to mostly stay overlord of 616 so LT didn't step in) and the fact that LT said that if he and Warlock fought he couldn't easily win and all reality might be destroyed, the fact that the IG is clearly above beings that have multiversal feats, the fact Uatu said the IG was too powerful for Reed to be able to handle yet he had no problem with Reed using the UN, etc.

I think my position is well supported.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Endless Mike
There's the fact an incomplete IG effortlessly deflected the multiverse-busting UN, the fact that the LT said Adam Warlock was a threat to all reality with it (whereas Thanos was content to mostly stay overlord of 616 so LT didn't step in) and the fact that LT said that if he and Warlock fought he couldn't easily win and all reality might be destroyed, the fact that the IG is clearly above beings that have multiversal feats, the fact Uatu said the IG was too powerful for Reed to be able to handle yet he had no problem with Reed using the UN, etc.

I think my position is well supported.
OneDumbG0 explained why the IG deflecting away the UN's blast isn't a demonstration of multiversal scope of power. The LT/Warlock statement was also made in the Dimension of Manifestations iirc, and their battle would have been limited to that. Not to mention that Warlock knew, one way or another the IG would leave his person. What multiversal beings are you talking about, that were inferior to the IG? LOL, Uatu's statements aren't blatant truth. Ever since then, we have seen Reed's peers from the Council easily handle their universe's native IGs.

Per Hickman's work in Fantastic Four and New Avengers, your position has been thoroughly unfounded.

Mr Master
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

All of that was mostly hyperbole. Barring the Ultraforce incident,
there has never been an actual demonstration of the Infinity Gems
operating in a separate universe
You must be referring to Hickman's retconned IG.

Because even Magus with an Incomplete IG merged Two entire UniverseS (one of which was 616)
while sitting in another separate Actuality over 100 UniverseS away down the Nexus of Realities.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

OneDumbG0 explained why the IG deflecting away the UN's
blast isn't a demonstration of multiversal scope of power.
And because you agree with it he's right? (iyo perhaps)
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

The LT/Warlock statement was also made in the Dimension of Manifestations iirc, and their battle would have been limited to that.

Wait,
so Warlock's 616 IG was functional in the Dimension of Manifestations?

Well, then, you're making a claim, then contradicting your own claim. (below)

---------------------------------------------------------------


The Dimension of Manifestations is Not withIN 616, Not part of 616,
in fact, it has No relation to 616 whatsoever:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16068804_DM1.jpg

"In a place that exists Beyond All Time & Space, that transcends All levels of Reality & Dream"

---------------------------------------------------------------


The Dimension of Manifestations is also considered to be the actual "Realm of the Cosmics"

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16068805_DM2.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------


The Dimension of Manifestations has also been called: "The Realm of the Living Tribunal"

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16068806_DM3.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------


So, you yourself have just submitted, the IG worked just fine Outside All of Eternity/Infinity!
and battling the LT would've destroyed what's considered home for em.

One should stick to their own interpretation/opinion good friend,
because being liked by a mod and writing pretty doesn't make one right.

Digi
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I never understood why people get so agitated about beings doing things outside their alleged sphere of influence in the grand scope of things as far as tier hierarchy.

If it serves the story...why does it matter?

And as far as a battleboard/feat mentality goes...feats are feats and on-panel evidence is on-panel evidence.

Virtually every character ever has their "average" and then has their moments when they go above and beyond said average. It's how the medium of comics, specifically superhero ones, work.

I sometimes wonder what this forum would be like if everyone really internalized this point.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Because what the Tribunal says clearly implies that infinite universes already exist. What the Watcher says implies that for every action/event that unfolds, a universe us created. The Watcher's statement doesn't bear testimony to the "infiniteness" of the multiverse, while the Tribunal's does.

Deadpool's references are about as reliable as those of a deranged schizophrenic who goes about gunslinging and wearing a skirt in zoos. Since it was a standalone reference in a New Exiles comic, then how can we be sure that it is the prime reality? Because, going by that logic the universe which the Marquis of Death originated from can also be called the prime reality. There is sufficient evidence for 616 being the prime reality. That much is not up for debate,


That's not what he implies, he says there are infinite realities, the how and why of it is left out, you've imprinted some thing that isn't there onto the statement. Nothing Tribunal said even slightly contradicts The Watcher.

I'll give you that about Deadpool, but it is established canon that he knows that he is in a comic, and its established canon that 1218 is the reality making those comics. Everything that happens in Marvel happens because some writer made it happen, because they are comic characters. That is truth of our reality but its also the truth of the Marvel Multiverse. 616 isn't the Prime Universe, if it was ever said to be it's because someone in 1218 wrote it down. /shrug

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
You must be referring to Hickman's retconned IG.

Because even Magus with an Incomplete IG merged Two entire UniverseS (one of which was 616)
while sitting in another separate Actuality over 100 UniverseS away down the Nexus of Realities.

And because you agree with it he's right? (iyo perhaps)

Wait,
so Warlock's 616 IG was functional in the Dimension of Manifestations?

Well, then, you're making a claim, then contradicting your own claim. (below)

---------------------------------------------------------------


The Dimension of Manifestations is Not withIN 616, Not part of 616,
in fact, it has No relation to 616 whatsoever:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16068804_DM1.jpg

"In a place that exists Beyond All Time & Space, that transcends All levels of Reality & Dream"

---------------------------------------------------------------


The Dimension of Manifestations is also considered to be the actual "Realm of the Cosmics"

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16068805_DM2.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------


The Dimension of Manifestations has also been called: "The Realm of the Living Tribunal"

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16068806_DM3.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------


So, you yourself have just submitted, the IG worked just fine Outside All of Eternity/Infinity!
and battling the LT would've destroyed what's considered home for em.

One should stick to their own interpretation/opinion good friend,
because being liked by a mod and writing pretty doesn't make one right.

well, i for one am a bit puzzled by the scans. i didn't see a mention of the DoM anywhere in the dormmy or protege scans, soooo....how do you figure that dormmy, protege were actually in the DoM?

@srank: look at you in the cosmic end of the swimming pool! logan must have f'd up the multiverse some where.... laughing out loud

TheGodKiller
@MrM: I'll get back to you when I have the time.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
That's not what he implies, he says there are infinite realities, the how and why of it is left out, you've imprinted some thing that isn't there onto the statement. Nothing Tribunal said even slightly contradicts The Watcher.

I'll give you that about Deadpool, but it is established canon that he knows that he is in a comic, and its established canon that 1218 is the reality making those comics. Everything that happens in Marvel happens because some writer made it happen, because they are comic characters. That is truth of our reality but its also the truth of the Marvel Multiverse. 616 isn't the Prime Universe, if it was ever said to be it's because someone in 1218 wrote it down. /shrug
Because the how and the why is relevant to him declaring a specific fact(that infinite realities already exist). Again, what the Watcher says(and I am making this claim based on a trust of your paraphrasing here) is clearly limited to how divergent futures end up getting created, and if we go by your logic that the multiverse is infinite simply because divergent futures already exist, then that presents a logical problem. On the other hand, what the Tribunal states very clearly focuses upon the already existing infinite variants of Earth-616.

It is also established canon that he's crazy as a methjunkie though. It's also established canon that 616 is the prime reality as well. Even if we take the existence of Earth-1218 at face value from a standalone reference in a single comic, look at it this way: the comic book writers(aka Marvel's TOAA), of that universe have also written 616 to be the prime reality of the multiverse, in a number of different stories, and alluded it to be the case on other stories. Once you read things from this perspective, everything will become a lot clearer, and you'll realize why 616 being the prime reality makes sense, and how those 7 futures being prime timelines is also a (unique)fact.

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

well, i for one am a bit puzzled by the scans. i didn't see a mention
of the DoM anywhere in the dormmy or protege scans, soooo....how
do you figure that dormmy, protege were actually in the DoM?

Darn it Leo, they tell me I can sell sand in a desert at work, but yur one tuff cookie.
laughing out loud I love it though cause you make me work, and when I do I
sometimes discover things that I either never knew, overlooked, or didn't realize.

Cool. So I broke down my reply in two posts,
cause I didn't wanna clog it all in one.
I value your thoughts, and I'll accept your honest conclusion of my "evidence."

----------------------------------------------


The Dimension of Manifestations is known as the place where manifested Concepts
linger, it is a near Void, with only unassigned Fractals and past-
present M-bodies that have been and are manifested.
ie. If the LT or Eternity (or any other concept) is not manifested withIN reality,
then you'll find them in the Dimension of Manifestations. That's why Dormy went straight there.

Here's another instance where the DoM is referred to as the home of the Concepts:

"Dimension of Manifestations, realm of Abstract Entities"

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072781_DoM6.jpg

But that aside, I have to prove this,
since unfortunately the Dormy scan didn't add the name of the
place, only its description which is that of the Dimension of Manifestations.
This Dormy scan is also a Void like the DoM as well.

That said ...

----------------------------------------------


First Leo,
I'd like to confirm that the place Beyonder/Protege-Eternity-LT & Hawkgod were,
was completely outside Eternity:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072775_DoM1.jpg

"In a place beyond All That Is"

----------------------------------------------

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072776_DoM2.jpg

"and in that nether-region that Exists outside of All Reality"

----------------------------------------------


The Dormy scan which imo presents the DoM,
defines it as a "place that transcends all levels of reality and dream" ...

In these Beyonder/Protege scans this place is stated to be:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072778_DoM3.jpg

"In that realm removed from All things Real or Imagined"

----------------------------------------------


The DoM itself was depicted on panel as something not withIN Eternity:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072780_DoM5.jpg

"Eternity is shunted into Another Realm ... the Dimension of Manifestations"

----------------------------------------------


Continues below ...

Mr Master
++++++++++++++++++++


So I proved Eternity, the LT and Hawkgod are outside 616, outside anything really.

But where are they? In the Dimension of Manifestations?

From what I know? Yes! ... but ... You decide below.

++++++++++++++++++++


I have Quasar wanting to find the LT so he can talk to him,,
he didn't even think twice about before quantum jumping into the DoM:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16073288_DoM12.jpg
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072782_DoM7.jpg

"Dimension of Manifestations, a strange realm where bodiless beings assume form"

----------------------------------------------


So, Quasar goes looking for the LT's Present manifested M-body. (May 94)

Along the way,
he bumps into ...

Eternity, LT and Hawkgod - 31st Century manifestations, during the Protege madness,
when they converged to discuss the threat as presented in scans above:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072784_DoM8.jpg

(Protege first came around in #15 years ago, but the climax was March-June 94 coincidentally)

----------------------------------------------


Anyway,
soon enough Quasar just finds the Present manifestation of the Living Tribunal
just lingering like I said earlier:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072785_DoM9.jpg

----------------------------------------------


Finally, when scenes return to 616 the writer puts it as:

"Real Space" ........

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072787_DoM10.jpg
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072788_DoM11.jpg

.... since it's evident imo the Dimension of Manifestations is a strange place
removed from all things real or imagined,
which transcends reality and dream.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
++++++++++++++++++++


So I proved Eternity, the LT and Hawkgod are outside 616, outside anything really.

But where are they? In the Dimension of Manifestations?

From what I know? Yes! ... but ... You decide below.

++++++++++++++++++++


I have Quasar wanting to find the LT so he can talk to him,,
he didn't even think twice about before quantum jumping into the DoM:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16073288_DoM12.jpg
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072782_DoM7.jpg

"Dimension of Manifestations, a strange realm where bodiless beings assume form"

----------------------------------------------


So, Quasar goes looking for the LT's Present manifested M-body. (May 94)

Along the way,
he bumps into ...

Eternity, LT and Hawkgod - 31st Century manifestations, during the Protege madness,
when they converged to discuss the threat as presented in scans above:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072784_DoM8.jpg

(Protege first came around in #15 years ago, but the climax was March-June 94 coincidentally)

----------------------------------------------


Anyway,
soon enough Quasar just finds the Present manifestation of the Living Tribunal
just lingering like I said earlier:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072785_DoM9.jpg

----------------------------------------------


Finally, when scenes return to 616 the writer puts it as:

"Real Space" ........

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072787_DoM10.jpg
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16072788_DoM11.jpg

.... since it's evident imo the Dimension of Manifestations is a strange place
removed from all things real or imagined,
which transcends reality and dream.

cool. i get your reasoning regarding why you think they were in the DoM. just not sure WHY they would be. i agree though it makes sense. i'm less sure if you asked the writer that HE would say they were in the DoM. not sure all writers know about it.

i'm curious though--also seem to recall you saying/thinking that the beyond realm fit in much the same way that the DoM seems to fit. it was beyond all there is, etc.... it was also a white emptiness. how are you distinguishing between the beyond realm (ie--the one in that ff arc with the tva) from the DoM? is it simply that beings don't ever visit there?

Omega Vision
First rule of comics, Leo, there's always room for another vast infinitude beyond reality. Clever names for them might run out though.

leonidas
lol yeah, that's part of my issue with making assumptions about things like the above--just because it's big and white doesn't mean it is the same place as the other big white place. if only marvel would use names more frequently to create a little better sense of consistency....

Endless Mike
Well this stuff is ostensibly beyond human comprehension, so of course it's going to be confusing and spark arguments, lol.

leonidas
hmm, since some of this seems relevant to some recent discussion......bumpity-bump. smile

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
I learned yesterday that even Pocket-Realms are outside 616,
while I was under the impression that wasn't the case.

well, as i was going through the infinity arc, i came across this scan. i think it helps solidify my universes within universes theory:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/27/cq5c.jpg

"a failed pocket universe resting within an existing one...."

clearly 2 universes CAN co-exist within each other. that would also mean that eternity 616 represents at LEAST 2 universes--the negative zone and the 616 universe. a rather large piece of information imo, and one that seems to strongly support what i've been saying, no?

leonidas
oh, and here is a link to a thread where much of this idea of eternity=a multiverse took place. not exactly the most....peaceful discussion ever, but, opinions make the world go round. and it WAS fun. laughing out loud

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=568051&pagenumber=6

I think looking back at that thread, coupled with the on panel proof that the negative zone IS within the 616 universe, proves incontrovertibly (despite handbook definitions that are used and misused over and over by writers) that 616 eternity is indeed multiversal in nature.

that definition of multiversal does NOT extend to ALTERNATE versions of 616 though. I see a series of eternities (each a multiverse unto itself) creating a larger TRUE multiverse. the terminology sucks, but it's the mess we're left with after looking at all the proofs. beyond the TRUE multiverse of alternates we have the omniverse (which also comes with varying definitions....)

if I could select terms, I'd use multiverse to represent eternity, MEGAVERSE to represent ALL eternities (all alternate eternities) and omniverse to include everything else. the fluidity of language is what causes all the doubt and blurred lines. I look forward to comments, disagreements or discussion on the topic.

leonidas
another link to yet another interesting thread relating to marvel's cosmology.....

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=563969&from=thread&pagenumber=10#post14597200

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

on panel proof that the negative zone IS within the 616 universe
I disagree.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Panel: (from Four separate arcs across the years)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763717_Negative_Zone_OUT_616.jpg

"... is not of This Universe" (616) "... this body origins in, the Negative Zone"

----------------------

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763720_Negative_Zone_outside_616-0.jpg

"Ben, the Negative Zone is an Alternate Universe"

----------------------

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763724_Negative_Zone_outside_616-4.jpg

"Both UniverseS purged of life. This One (616) and the Negative Zone."

----------------------

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763727_Negative_Zone_outside_616-7.jpg

"This Universe's (616) creature's are not like us" (from the Negative Zone) = another universe.

----------------------

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763725_Negative_Zone_outside_616-5.jpg

"Our Universe" (616) "is expanding into the Universe Annihilus rules." (Negatve Zone)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Handbook Files:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


"In their home Dimension, the anti-matter realm the Negative Zone, space is constantly contracting,

while our own Universe (616) expands from the Crunch."

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763722_Negative_Zone_outside_616-2.jpg

(so the Two separate UniverseS even operate completely differently, besides that positive/negative matter joined = obliteration)

----------------------

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763726_Negative_Zone_outside_616-6.jpg

"Annihilus learned that the positive-matter Universe (616) was gradually expanding into his anti-matter Negative Zone.

... Crunch, the energy surge that Separates the positive-matter Universe from its anti-matter counter-part"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Handbook bio:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763718_Negative_Zone_outside_616.jpg

"The Negative Zone is an alien Universe with different physical laws.

Reed learned that it was a different Universe."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


I also noticed you mis-interpreted the SW Beyonder scan.

Beyonder visited the Negative Zone but also the Microverse in his multiversal journey.

The Microverse was without question (even years prior in-fact) located in a Distant Universe, it was/is a Parallel Universe.

Therefore Beyonder travelled the actual infinite mulitverse of alternate relaities
and not some made up multiverse within the multiverse imo.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
I disagree.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Panel: (from Four separate arcs across the years)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763717_Negative_Zone_OUT_616.jpg

"... is not of This Universe" (616) "... this body origins in, the Negative Zone"

----------------------

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763720_Negative_Zone_outside_616-0.jpg

"Ben, the Negative Zone is an Alternate Universe"

----------------------

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763724_Negative_Zone_outside_616-4.jpg

"Both UniverseS purged of life. This One (616) and the Negative Zone."

----------------------

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763727_Negative_Zone_outside_616-7.jpg

"This Universe's (616) creature's are not like us" (from the Negative Zone) = another universe.

----------------------

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763725_Negative_Zone_outside_616-5.jpg

"Our Universe" (616) "is expanding into the Universe Annihilus rules." (Negatve Zone)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Handbook Files:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


"In their home Dimension, the anti-matter realm the Negative Zone, space is constantly contracting,

while our own Universe (616) expands from the Crunch."

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763722_Negative_Zone_outside_616-2.jpg

(so the Two separate UniverseS even operate completely differently, besides that positive/negative matter joined = obliteration)

----------------------

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763726_Negative_Zone_outside_616-6.jpg

"Annihilus learned that the positive-matter Universe (616) was gradually expanding into his anti-matter Negative Zone.

... Crunch, the energy surge that Separates the positive-matter Universe from its anti-matter counter-part"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Handbook bio:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17763718_Negative_Zone_outside_616.jpg

"The Negative Zone is an alien Universe with different physical laws.

Reed learned that it was a different Universe."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


I also noticed you mis-interpreted the SW Beyonder scan.

Beyonder visited the Negative Zone but also the Microverse in his multiversal journey.

The Microverse was without question (even years prior in-fact) located in a Distant Universe, it was/is a Parallel Universe.

Therefore Beyonder travelled the actual infinite mulitverse of alternate relaities
and not some made up multiverse within the multiverse imo.

well,you're free to disagree, but i hope it's not because of those scans......

all those scans are cool and everything, and i know all about the status of the negative zone, but..... not one of them refutes, in any way at all, what was said.

a universe WITHIN a universe. no one has said they aren't 2 separate universes, so.....? confused they are most certainly separate, parallels, whatever you want to say. no one is disputing that. your dispute is over it's LOCATION. it can be separate, but still WITHIN the universe, like a blood cell within my body. the 2 ideas are not mutually exclusive no matter how much you want them to be. the NZ may have once been thought to exist BESIDE our universe or something (makes no sense at a meta-spatial level, but whatever), but now it has been clearly shown and stated on panel by the builders (pretty powerful, certainly extremely knowledgeable multiversal travelers and creators...) that the NZ exists WITHIN our universe. which makes perfect sense to me, as that is precisely the theory i`ve postulated for years now. smile

as for the SW scan--fraid there`s no misinterpretation there either. i could show--again--the scan of ss SHRINKING to enter it. even if you don`t want to accept that, it doesn`t matter. clearly universes CAN exist within each other. the MICROverse`s entire PREMISE is that it is a tiny universe--relatively.

i`ve never understood your reticence regarding this reductionist model that i`m talking about, that has been stated to exist on panel by both a builder and kubik. the multiverse exists WITHIN the omniverse. eternity exists WITHIN a greater multiverse. why you refuse to believe universes can exist WITHIN universes is something i`ll never understand. the microverse in particular fits in perfectly with the reductionist idea. in a comicbook world, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to suppose a universe can`t exist within another universe. used to be you just never saw proof of it so wouldn`t believe. but now you HAVE your proof, stated clear as day, but just want to say it`s pis or something. the alternative (eternity ONLY represents one single, tiny universe) leads to soooo many problems (eternity=a tiny part of the greater nine worlds, anyone? lol), and ignores so much evidence. seems like a lot of effort to go to to not see something that is pretty clear imo. i don't think you're opinion will ever change for some reason, and while you're welcome to your thoughts, i don't know that there is really much reason to get into the topic with you again.

operator616
Originally posted by leonidas
that has been stated to exist on panel by both a builder and kubik.

Actually, it's not just those 2 instances, there are several others (i agree with you that certain universes contain other universes)

Marvel has always established that fact (that universes can exist within universes).

Examples:

Here's a scan from the 1960s. Dr Strange v1 #171, where Strange enters the "realm of the unkown" and literally sees universeS within it:

http://i.imgur.com/gDJiY6t.jpg

"World within a world.......each tiny droplet contains a cosmos"

Dark dimension itself has multiple pocket universes in itself, Dr Strange v3 #22:

http://i.imgur.com/YxY0ngu.jpg?1

Heck, this was confirmed even in the 1960s as well (Strange tales v1 #126). Dr. Strange, while being in the Dark Dimension, goes to another dimension (while being inside the DD):

http://i.imgur.com/rE2aw5H.jpg

...Hence his comment: "worlds within worlds"

See this red thingy? That's a portal leading to another universe within the Dark Dimension.

That much is indisputable.


Originally posted by leonidas
-the scan of ss SHRINKING to enter it. even if you don`t want to accept that, it doesn`t matter. clearly universes CAN exist within each other. the MICROverse`s entire PREMISE is that it is a tiny universe--relatively.

the microverse is actually another universe separate from 616. I trust that posting a lot of scans (there's literally dozens of them) saying that won't suffice like in NZ's case (even though it should), but you also gotta understand that the shrinking process breaks the dimensional barrier between the Earth's and the microverse to get to it. So, the microverse is not within 616, it's separated by a dimensional barrier.

Like this, for example, from Micronauts v1 #35:

http://i.imgur.com/u0CyymD.jpg?1

"The spacewall, the barrier which separates the microverse from the earth and the larger macroverse"

Or here, in X-Men and the Micronauts #1, Charles literally says "my thoughts cannot breach the spacewall separating our dimensions from theirs":

http://i.imgur.com/Mbkq61Y.jpg?1

Or like in Cable v2 #39, Rann says:

http://i.imgur.com/HkEqCri.jpg?1

"spacewall separating out two dimensions"

There are lots of examples.

See, that's why shrinking, merely breaks the dimensional barrier instead of just transporting you into a tinier universe (2006 handbook):

http://i.imgur.com/idI3ASq.jpg?1

I understand that you think microverse being called "world within world" proves that it's within 616.....but everything else points otherwise.

smile

Originally posted by leonidas
that the NZ exists WITHIN our universe. which makes perfect sense to me, as that is precisely the theory i`ve postulated for years now.

Okay, but apart from the countless instances where it's called as being a "parallel" or "another" universe (which honestly, should be proof enough)......how do you explain the fact that one has to travel through the distortion area (between realities)/Crossraods of Infinity to reach the Negative Zone? like in FF #51:

http://i.imgur.com/f7Gu6jS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Y5b9PaD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eNtNeaY.jpg

Or FF #251 (of course, there are other examples, as well):

http://i.imgur.com/wSFn1Pl.jpg?1

Just curious about your answer here. Because i honestly don't see a counter to that.

Remember That's also what the most recent evidence (more so than Avengers #21) shows. That right there massively contradicts your point.

I even recall that someone actually asked Brevoort (who was the editor of Avengers #21) on formspring about Negative Zone being a pocket reality or something, he kinda avoided the question....can't imagine why.

PS: Sorry, i know your response had nothing to do with me, i just couldn't help it. big grin

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616

Actually, it's not just those 2 instances, there are several others (i agree with you that certain universes contain other universes)

Marvel has always established that fact (that universes can exist within universes).

Examples:

Here's a scan from the 1960s. Dr Strange v1 #171, where Strange enters the "realm of the unkown" and literally sees universeS within it:

http://i.imgur.com/gDJiY6t.jpg

"World within a world.......each tiny droplet contains a cosmos"

Dark dimension itself has multiple pocket universes in itself, Dr Strange v3 #22:

http://i.imgur.com/YxY0ngu.jpg?1

Heck, this was confirmed even in the 1960s as well (Strange tales v1 #126). Dr. Strange, while being in the Dark Dimension, goes to another dimension (while being inside the DD):

http://i.imgur.com/rE2aw5H.jpg

...Hence his comment: "worlds within worlds"

See this red thingy? That's a portal leading to another universe within the Dark Dimension.

That much is indisputable.
Good points. Although I believe that all changed in the late 70's or early 80's. (then again, Strange writers were rogue)

Especially concerning the Microverse

(are there depictions that suggests there are Entire UniverseS withIN the 616 reality?) I never seen it.
Originally posted by operator616

the microverse is actually another universe separate from 616. I trust that posting a lot of scans (there's literally dozens of them) saying that won't suffice like in NZ's case (even though it should), but you also gotta understand that the shrinking process breaks the dimensional barrier between the Earth's and the microverse to get to it. So, the microverse is not within 616, it's separated by a dimensional barrier.

Like this, for example, from Micronauts v1 #35:
http://i.imgur.com/u0CyymD.jpg?1

"The spacewall, the barrier which separates the microverse from the earth and the larger macroverse"

Or here, in X-Men and the Micronauts #1, Charles literally says "my thoughts cannot breach the spacewall separating our dimensions from theirs":

http://i.imgur.com/Mbkq61Y.jpg?1

Or like in Cable v2 #39, Rann says:

http://i.imgur.com/HkEqCri.jpg?1

"spacewall separating out two dimensions"

There are lots of examples.

See, that's why shrinking, merely breaks the dimensional barrier instead of just transporting you into a tinier universe (2006 handbook):

http://i.imgur.com/idI3ASq.jpg?1

I understand that you think microverse being called "world within world" proves that it's within 616.....but everything else points otherwise.

Okay, but apart from the countless instances where it's called as being a "parallel" or "another" universe (which honestly, should be proof enough)......how do you explain the fact that one has to travel through the distortion area (between realities)/Crossraods of Infinity to reach the Negative Zone? like in FF #51:

http://i.imgur.com/f7Gu6jS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Y5b9PaD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eNtNeaY.jpg

Or FF #251 (of course, there are other examples, as well):

http://i.imgur.com/wSFn1Pl.jpg?1

Just curious about your answer here. Because i honestly don't see a counter to that.

Remember That's also what the most recent evidence (more so than Avengers #21) shows. That right there massively contradicts your point.

I even recall that someone actually asked Brevoort (who was the editor of Avengers #21) on formspring about Negative Zone being a pocket reality or something, he kinda avoided the question....can't imagine why.

PS: Sorry, i know your response had nothing to do with me, i just couldn't help it.
thumb up ... I been on this ride before.

Galan007
Originally posted by operator616
Actually, it's not just those 2 instances, there are several others (i agree with you that certain universes contain other universes)

Marvel has always established that fact (that universes can exist within universes).

Examples:

Here's a scan from the 1960s. Dr Strange v1 #171, where Strange enters the "realm of the unkown" and literally sees universeS within it:

http://i.imgur.com/gDJiY6t.jpg

"World within a world.......each tiny droplet contains a cosmos"

Dark dimension itself has multiple pocket universes in itself, Dr Strange v3 #22:

http://i.imgur.com/YxY0ngu.jpg?1

Heck, this was confirmed even in the 1960s as well (Strange tales v1 #126). Dr. Strange, while being in the Dark Dimension, goes to another dimension (while being inside the DD):

http://i.imgur.com/rE2aw5H.jpg

...Hence his comment: "worlds within worlds"

See this red thingy? That's a portal leading to another universe within the Dark Dimension.

That much is indisputable. For me, Franklin's universe was the first thing that came to mind where this side of the debate is concerned:
http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/17774370_FF-600-092.jpg http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/17774371_FF-600-093.jpg http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/17774372_FF-600-097.jpg


We also saw the same type of thing from MJJ:
http://imgur.com/mZpHFSS
http://imgur.com/KQPg54j
http://imgur.com/JDvFfkx


But yeah there are dozens of other instances.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007

For me, Franklin's universe was the first thing that came to mind where this side of the debate is concerned:

The Portal that leads to the Pocket Reality is withIN 616, but not the pocket-reality itself,
which is why everything changes into his world when he enters it.

The shape of the portal can confuse the reader I agree.
Originally posted by Galan007

We also saw the same type of thing from MJJ:
http://imgur.com/mZpHFSS
http://imgur.com/KQPg54j
http://imgur.com/JDvFfkx
This has nothing to do with an entire universe, or any universe withIN the universe.

That's MJJ, who's warp allowed him to manifest as The Universe. (616)

Again, the doorway was nothing more than a gateway.

Anyway, flip further pages and MJJ is hovering over London still in
Eternity/Infinity-esk transparency/one with the skies/space.
Also, Sartunyne and Linda were conversing outside and reality was twisted.
Originally posted by Galan007

yeah there are dozens of other instances.
I still haven't seen a single instance where there was an entire Universe withIN 616 or any other.

Galan007
Nah, when Franklin created his first pocket reality it was housed inside of a blue ball, as you well know:
http://imgur.com/qSyt4Ic

That ball literally WAS the Heroes Reborn universe... And as its handbook entry confirms, that pocket reality was located "IN earth-616 dimension":
http://imgur.com/VtcUWd1
ie. a universe withIN a universe.

If you don't think Frank's second(more recent) pocket reality was also located "IN earth-616 dimension", then I find that somewhat silly considering we saw Franklin holding said universe under his sheets when it was in its infancy, before promptly stuffing it inside his closet:
http://imgur.com/c5qIVz2
http://imgur.com/h3vSF9w
Essentially Franklin's closet had now become what his blue ball was the first time--a universe. It is only logical to assume that Franklin's closet universe was part of the 616 reality, just as his blue ball-verse was... Unless you think the closet universe inexplicably diverged from the 616 reality entirely, all by its lonesome..? If so, that's quite an accomplishment for a non-sentient universe.

Anywho, Ashema ultimately incorporated the Heroes Reborn-verse into herself, yet was still under the confines of Eternity:
http://imgur.com/XAY4xnO
http://imgur.com/s4XfN8d
http://imgur.com/qhP8C4o
ie. a universe existed withIN Ashema, who existed withIN the 616 universe. eek!

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007

Nah, when Franklin created his first pocket reality it was housed inside of a blue ball, as you well know:

That ball literally WAS the Heroes Reborn universe... And as its handbook entry confirms, that pocket reality was located "IN earth-616 dimension":

ie. a universe withIN a universe.
Actually my friend, that's just the Planet Earth of the pocket-universe that was transported by Doom/Ashema into the 616 reality.

This is why it's located there now, in that bio at the time.
Originally posted by Galan007

If you don't think Frank's second(more recent) pocket reality was also located "IN earth-616 dimension", then I find that somewhat silly considering we saw Franklin holding said universe under his sheets when it was in its infancy, before promptly stuffing it inside his closet:
Essentially Franklin's closet had now become what his blue ball was the first time--a universe. It is only logical to assume that Franklin's closet universe was part of the 616 reality, just as his blue ball-verse was... Unless you think the closet universe inexplicably diverged from the 616 reality entirely, all by its lonesome..? If so, that's quite an accomplishment for a non-sentient universe.
If that's the actual pocket-universe under his sheets, then you can basically destroy it with a broom stick.
Imo, it's artistic portrayal for us the readers, this is why it's like a foot across.
I agree, it is a pocket-universe, but Franklin's ball and then closet are portals to his pocket-reality.
Like when people enter Eternity's M-body and end up withIN the actual Universe somewhere.
Eternity's "m-body" in Franklin's case would be like the blue ball/closet.

Again, imo and I'll leave it at that.
Originally posted by Galan007

Anywho, Ashema ultimately incorporated the Heroes Reborn-verse into herself, yet was still under the confines of Eternity:
ie. a universe existed withIN Ashema, who existed withIN the 616 universe.
Bad-ass. Uatu contains a pocket-universe in his chest too.

I have a perfect Marvel explanation on this in marvunapp, they break it down better than I can.

*edit ... Celestials do operate outside of "Time" (Eternity) though. Like every time they pop up in the D of M, even though they're his "figments."

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

no one has said they aren't 2 separate universes, so.....?
they are most certainly separate, parallels, whatever you want to say.
no one is disputing that. your dispute is over it's LOCATION.
it can be separate, but still WITHIN the universe.
no expression ... wait, huh?
Originally posted by leonidas

as for the SW scan--fraid there`s no misinterpretation there either.
i could show--again--. even if you don`t want to accept that, it doesn`t matter. clearly universes CAN exist within each other. the MICROverse`s entire PREMISE is that it is a tiny universe--relatively.

the microverse in particular fits in perfectly with the reductionist idea.
I'm not sure if yall all know this, but I'll throw it in just in case.

Beyonder was traveling the one and only infinite Marvel Multiverse of the time.

Beyonder was exploring - but his main objective was to find Bruce Banner.
Beyonder, while sitting in 616, with his cosmic awareness noticed Bruce in despair,
who was in the "CrossRoads of Infinity"

The "CrossRoads" is a (Multiversal Nexus to the infinite Parallel/Alternate UniverseS)

The "CrossRoads of Infinity" is also located outisde 616!

Like all Nexuses!

This is why Beyonder had to step out of 616 to reach the Nexus,
and as he did, he explored UniverseS (pockets & also dimensions which are infinite like the Micro-Cosmos)
then finally arriving at his destination WAY outside 616 ... the "CrossRaods."

Anyway ... Mantlo (writer) clearly states:





"Traversing the Myriad Planes" (realities)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I could systematically prove everywhere Beyonder went on that page is outside 616, including the Pockets like Asgard.

But I don't need to do that, I just need to prove that ONE of those "Planes" (realities)
is outisde 616, and then ... that's it imo.

Microverse will do just fine for now.

Mr Master
--------------------------------------------------------

There once was a time when the Microverse was thought to exist withIN the universe,
that idea was shattered On Panel yearS before Secret Wars I or II.

As far back as 1980!

--------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------


Hank Pym 1980 - (5 years BEFORE SW II) specifically targets this "realms withIN realms" notion:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/14781294_24.jpg

"The thing is, the 'Worlds within Worlds' model we've been using NO longer works!

Violate the Plank Limit and you drop Out of This Universe and into Another Parallel One.

Which we call a MICRO WORLD"


*** One of those "Micro-Worlds" he's talking about is the Microverse!




I mean, seriously, that seals my argument as a prove fact. smile


But the Fantastic Four follow up on that in 1984.

An it also directly addresses your notion of "shrinkage" within the universe to enter the Microverse.

-----------------------------------------------


Reed Richards & FF - 1984 - (1 Year BEFORE SW II)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/14781443_27.jpg

"This is the Microverse, hm? Isn't how I'd pictured walking on a sub-atomic particle."

"That's because you're NOT, ... we now know This is Extra-Dimensional Space" ...

"I thought we were shrinking?"

"We were, but that somehow Pops us through into a Parallel Universe. We call it the Microverse"


-----------------------------------------------


-----------------------------------------------


I remember one time the 616 Universe and the Microverse came close to touching too much,
it nearly cause the complete destruction of Both (as in Two) UniverseS.

Commander Raan and Dr Strange - 1981 - (4 Years BEFORE SW II)


It only takes a piece of the Micro-Cosmos (like the Microverse)
to touch 616 and it would obliterate BOTH UniverseS:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/14781523_20.jpg

"The Microverse expanding - encroaching on the Space occupied by Earth.

But No Two objects or UniverseS can occupy the same place in Time"

-------

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/14781522_19.jpg

"You would allow Two UniverseS to be destroyed"

-----------------------------------------------


This is because the Micro-Cosmos that contains the Microverse is a completely separate Alternate Universe that was re-created by The Makers:

Commander Raan - 1984 (1 Year BEFOR SWII)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/14781536_3.jpg

"The Makers ... To have reshaped This Universe" (Micro Cosmos which contains the Micro-verse)
so it resembled the structure of life" ...

Mr Master
==========================


That should more than enuff, but back to the Beyonder and .... (Secret Wars II mis-interpretation)


==========================


Beyonder himself calls the Microverse A DISTANT UNIVERSE!

Beyonder noticed the Microverse when he went looking at UniverseS BEYOND UniverseS, before locating Bruce Banner.

... NOT Universes withIN Universes ... That's incorrect!


Beyonder (1985 - DURING SW II)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/14781906_28.jpg

"I am from Beyond!"

"You sound like you're from Earth" (616)

"From There" (616) "I looked through the Worlds Beyond Worlds --
and saw This Distant Universe" (Microverse) "was in trouble."



********* IS THIS TRUE? **********


Did Beyonder really look at UniverseS BEYOND UniverseS while sitting in 616
and noticed a DISTANT Universe called the Microverse in his journey?


yes ... back in the Hulk tie-in!


Beyonder sitting in 616 acknowledges there's more than just a Universe in Marvel
this is actually an infinite Multiverse of UniverseS:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/14781710_a.jpg

----------------------

Beyonder went looking for Bruce,
who was WAY OUTSIDE 616 in Another Dimension called the "CrossRoads of Infinity"
located in the Neagtive Zone which is also located OUTSIDE 616. (remember Annihilation)

But he enjoyed the scenic view across the Myriad Planes (universeS)
as he traveled to the CrossRoads!

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/14781711_a1.jpg

----------------------

Beyonder passes by the Microverse (A DISTANT Universe BEYOND UniverseS)
and off-panel noticed Scion's cry who told us in Micronauts V2 #16.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/14781861_OUTSIDE_616.jpg


-------------------------------------------------------------


So ...

... Was the Micro-Cosmos that contains the Microverse a Parallel Universe Outside 616
during Secret Wars II published in 1985?

...Was the Micro Cosmos an Alternate Universe from the infinity of the Multiverse
taken by the "Makers" and re-made in their liking into the Micro-Cosmos
during Secret Wars II published in 1985?


YES!


According to:

Hank Pym 1980 - (5 years BEFORE SS II)

Reed Richards & FF - 1984 - (1 Year BEFORE SS II)

Commander Raan and Dr Strange - 1981 - (4 Years BEFORE SS II)

Commander Raan - 1984 (1 Year BEFOR SSII)

Beyonder (1985 - DURING SS II)

... and explicitly so every single issue AFTER Micronauts V1 #25 (1981)


-------------------------------------------------------------


I luvs ya L, but I'm done here my good friend.

Galan007
Originally posted by Mr Master
Again, imo and I'll leave it at that. Great. I didn't expect you to change your opinion--that's why my initial post wasn't directed at you. I was simply responding to operator.

operator616
Originally posted by Mr Master
Good points. Although I believe that all changed in the late 70's or early 80's. (then again, Strange writers were rogue)

Especially concerning the Microverse

(are there depictions that suggests there are Entire UniverseS withIN the 616 reality?) I never seen it.


You say good points......yet when i look at your next post, i see you completely disregarding them. Believe what you want, i know that my opinion is backed by on panel proof.

The pocket universes within the Dark dimension scan is from Dr Strange v3 (Sorcerer Supreme series) #22, 1990.

I remember in FF #550, when it was stated that a pocket universe was cut from Eternity (confirming that Eternity, the 616 universe, contains pocket universes):

http://i.imgur.com/Dug0nr7.jpg?1

Could it also be what Dr Strange v3 #54 (An Infinity Crusade Tie-in) was referring to, when it's stated that Eternity holds universeS in his hands?:

http://i.imgur.com/T5Vm4Ov.jpg

Because i really doubt that the Eternity who was portrayed in Infinity Crusade was intended to be multiversal (it directly involved the prior events such as Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War) -- unlike in Defenders v1 #92, or throughout the Defenders v3 mini-series, or in the FF Annual 2001, or in Captain Marvel v5 (all of which, Eternity was confirmed to encompass the whole multiverse, as in 616 and all the fully functional alternate universes as opposed to pocket ones).

So now that i think of it.....it's possible....but also doubtful.

Originally posted by Galan007
For me, Franklin's universe was the first thing that came to mind where this side of the debate is concerned:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17774370/FF-600-092.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17774371/FF-600-093.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17774372/FF-600-097.jpg.html

But yeah there are dozens of other instances.

Hmm.....for some reason, it never occurred to me using Franklin's pocket universe as proof of universes existing within universes.

But yeah, i don't see why not. Portal or not, it doesn't matter, like in the Strange Tales scan, Doctor Strange goes through a portal within the dark dimension and ends in another universe, and he calls it a "world within world".....so imo, it's applicable.

This also reminds of Age of X, where we see an actual universe (embodied by Eternity) within a box:

http://i.imgur.com/TFm64dK.jpg

A universe within a universe, essentially.

And as you know, the pocket universes examples continue, we have Astonishing Thor #2, for instance, where we see Collector has a bunch of pocket universeS contained:

http://i.imgur.com/KPIlhal.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LS8vssk.jpg

Or like Mr Master stated about Uatu containing a pocket universe in 1602 #8, etc...

operator616
Originally posted by Mr Master


Hank Pym 1980 - (5 years BEFORE SW II) specifically targets this "realms withIN realms" notion:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14781294/24.jpg.html

"The thing is, the 'Worlds within Worlds' model we've been using NO longer works!



Yeah, but even after that, it was referred to as "worlds within worlds". Examples:

Alpha Flight (1998)

http://i.imgur.com/uJUge5r.jpg

Cable (1996):

http://i.imgur.com/HkTNkio.jpg?1

Which is why i responded to Leo, that everything else (being separated by dimensional barriers, and being continually called as a separate universe) points otherwise, even though it is referred to as such.

Mr Master
^^ thumb up ... That's weird, rogue idiot writers perhaps?
Well, maybe it's been changed again to being atomic universes. (although yur other scans contradict that)
Still ... it doesn't change the fact that during (and years before) SW II it was what I proved it was.

Therefore, the Beyonder scene where he walks the Multiverse, is the actual Multiverse (passes NZ-Micro-Crossroads)
and Not a multiverse within the universe, or Shooter meaning 616 was a multiverse.

I'm sure you'll agree to that at-least.

That was the whole point of me posting those irrefutable scans concerning the Micro-Cosmos during SW I-II.
Originally posted by operator616

You say good points......yet when i look at your next post, i see you completely disregarding them. Believe what you want, i know that my opinion is backed by on panel proof.
I didn't disregard them, I believe I responded to that part of your post.
Originally posted by operator616

The pocket universes within the Dark dimension scan is from Dr Strange v3 (Sorcerer Supreme series) #22, 1990.

I remember in FF #550, when it was stated that a pocket universe was cut from Eternity (confirming that Eternity, the 616 universe, contains pocket universes):

http://i.imgur.com/Dug0nr7.jpg?1
True that. Everything is withIN Eternity/Infinity.

I'm talking about universes withIN/Megred into the actual physical universe.

If it's somewhere withIN a single universe, then one wouldn't need to cross into another dimension, one could just travel there via distance.
Originally posted by operator616

Could it also be what Dr Strange v3 #54 (An Infinity Crusade Tie-in) was referring to, when it's stated that Eternity holds universeS in his hands?:

http://i.imgur.com/T5Vm4Ov.jpg
Nah. Since those are "Whole" Universes with Pasts/FutureS and a Present.
Originally posted by operator616

Because i really doubt that the Eternity who was portrayed in Infinity Crusade was intended to be multiversal (it directly involved the prior events such as (Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War) -- unlike in Defenders v1 #92, or throughout the Defenders v3 mini-series, or in the FF Annual 2001, or in Captain Marvel v5 (all of which, Eternity was confirmed to encompass the whole multiverse, as in 616 and all the fully functional alternate universes as opposed to pocket ones).

So now that i think of it.....it's possible....but also doubtful.
I disagree opr. That was definitely a Multiversal portrayal in Infinity Crusade.

Remember good friend,
Eternity in that scene with Strange (Infinity Crusade) didn't give a rats ass about the 616 Universe.

Eternity called the 616 Reality ... "one Dimension ... an infinitesimal part of myself"

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17780987_ET_doesnt_care_about_616-5.jpg

-----------------------------------

Actually, in three separate scenarios (involving Infinity Crusade) in 3 different books,
Eternity & even Infinity was/were portrayed not caring about the 616 Universe.

I already addressed the Strange scene, here's another with Eternity and Warlock:

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17780983_ET_doesnt_care_about_616-1.jpg

-----------------------------------

Here's another with Eternity and Infinity plus Warlock again:

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17780984_ET_doesnt_care_about_616-2.jpghttp://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17780985_ET_doesnt_care_about_616-3.jpg

-----------------------------------

Eternity/Infinity didn't care about the demise of the 616 Universe, but he did care about the Multiverse!

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17780989_ET_doesnt_care_about_616-7.jpg

-----------------------------------

As you can see, if this was just a singular Eternity/Infinity and nothing else,
that verbal tone would be senseless. It's also obvious that the dialogue tells us
they are more than a single universe that may or may not contain "pockets."

You're a reasonable debater, I'm sure you'll agree even if you don't voice that, as I would.
Originally posted by operator616

Doctor Strange goes through a portal within the dark dimension and ends in another universe, and he calls it a "world within world".....so imo, it's applicable.
This also reminds of Age of X, where we see an actual universe (embodied by Eternity) within a box:
http://i.imgur.com/TFm64dK.jpg
A universe within a universe, essentially.
And as you know, the pocket universes examples continue, we have Astonishing Thor #2, for instance, where we see Collector has a bunch of pocket universeS contained:
http://i.imgur.com/KPIlhal.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LS8vssk.jpg

Or like Mr Master stated about Uatu containing a pocket universe in 1602 #8, etc...
Cool scans. The Dark Dimension is a special case I believe, because it's a
universe which merged a bunch of tiny pockets if I'm not mistaken. The DD
was a pocket itself I believe. I gotta flip pages on this so I'll be back on that.

I'll get that link to where its explained meticulously how these "pockets" work,
why it seems they're located within the universe when we see a ball, door, box, whathaveyou.

Although I'll submit, until I find the direct info to establish my point, I can't decisively explain away your scans.

You're interpretation may be correct. You don't believe this applies to all pockets though right?

That aside, ... from what I've known,
Pockets may seem to be in the universe but they actually occupy their own space, I know that's a fact.
This is true even if they're part of the greater Eternity/infinity.
Which is why you end up in another place when you enter one. (a place un-reachable via distance-travelling speed)

Epicurus
Considering that a rogue planet was merged with the Earth recently in an issue of Avengers NOW, I don't see why the same can't hold true of universes.

Galan007
Originally posted by operator616
Hmm.....for some reason, it never occurred to me using Franklin's pocket universe as proof of universes existing within universes.

But yeah, i don't see why not. Portal or not, it doesn't matter, like in the Strange Tales scan, Doctor Strange goes through a portal within the dark dimension and ends in another universe, and he calls it a "world within world".....so imo, it's applicable.

This also reminds of Age of X, where we see an actual universe (embodied by Eternity) within a box:

http://i.imgur.com/TFm64dK.jpg

A universe within a universe, essentially.

And as you know, the pocket universes examples continue, we have Astonishing Thor #2, for instance, where we see Collector has a bunch of pocket universeS contained:

http://i.imgur.com/KPIlhal.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LS8vssk.jpg

Or like Mr Master stated about Uatu containing a pocket universe in 1602 #8, etc... thumb up

Mr Master
Originally posted by Epicurus

Considering that a rogue planet was merged with the Earth recently in an issue of Avengers NOW, I don't see why the same can't hold true of universes.
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if that were possible Nowadays.
Marvel has changed much, it's difficult to keep up with the constant flux with "life" as another priority lol.

But yea, I'm starting to realize leo, opr and myself are all wrong and right.
leo was right after all, there's too many writers/interpretations to neatly fit this into a perfect painting.

I've noticed books cater to their own ideas many times, even though they're all Marvel.
X-Men world, FF world, Dr Strange world, Britain/Excalibur/Exiles world and so on.

I know Leo gets what I'm saying here cause I think this is the foundation of his point, and he's right.

The debate is pointless, there are certain things that are of course concrete,
but in the cosmology aspect of comics, nothing's set in stone and worse yet,
things evidently change very quickly anyway. (at-least Nowadays for sure)
There was a more structured established understanding imo before,
it may not have been absolute, but it was manageable.

The debate from now on for me will depend on the writers type of usual story-line,
or book title rather, cause that says it all. That would give me an idea of what to expect from their interpretation.

Well anyway, bottom-line is we can add different points of views concerning different stories,
and if they add up that's great and will solidify a claim more,
but if not, if it's contradicted by another story/writer and still both make sense,
then it's just separate angles to look at the idea from.

Imo.

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
Actually, it's not just those 2 instances, there are several others (i agree with you that certain universes contain other universes)

Marvel has always established that fact (that universes can exist within universes).

Examples:

Here's a scan from the 1960s. Dr Strange v1 #171, where Strange enters the "realm of the unkown" and literally sees universeS within it:

http://i.imgur.com/gDJiY6t.jpg

"World within a world.......each tiny droplet contains a cosmos"

Dark dimension itself has multiple pocket universes in itself, Dr Strange v3 #22:

http://i.imgur.com/YxY0ngu.jpg?1

Heck, this was confirmed even in the 1960s as well (Strange tales v1 #126). Dr. Strange, while being in the Dark Dimension, goes to another dimension (while being inside the DD):

http://i.imgur.com/rE2aw5H.jpg

...Hence his comment: "worlds within worlds"

See this red thingy? That's a portal leading to another universe within the Dark Dimension.

That much is indisputable.

thumb up



well, the microverse issue, like the NZ as you guessed, is pretty easily explained away. hell, in the real world the quantum world has a different set of natural laws but yeah, i can easily see the microverse existing within 616 universe, like so many others can and do. but of course you'd need to pass some barrier to enter it, like you'd have to pass a barrier or dimensional wall to enter ANY other dimension/universe. we've also seen that reed has a simple door that opens to the NZ. rips in space lead to it. i'm....not really sure what you're asking me, or how the fact that the both the microverse and the NZ are lept apart from our universe by their respective barriers somehow implies they can't still exist within our universe? confused

ps--incidentally, i've only said i COULD see the microverse existing within our universe. i never really had much of an opinion if ot did. i DO think it has a place within eternity though, and at the heart, this is what the discussion has been about. i STILL say eternity 616 is a multiverse, comprised of many universes/dimensions outside JUST the earth 616 universe. i think mr m did a good job showing that the microverse probably is NOT within 616, but imo it IS within 616 eternity. even if you want to assume the NZ isn't within 616 either, that does NOT preclude it being apart of 616 eternity, imo.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
==========================


That should more than enuff, but back to the Beyonder and .... (Secret Wars II mis-interpretation)


==========================


Beyonder himself calls the Microverse A DISTANT UNIVERSE!

Beyonder noticed the Microverse when he went looking at UniverseS BEYOND UniverseS, before locating Bruce Banner.

... NOT Universes withIN Universes ... That's incorrect!


Beyonder (1985 - DURING SW II)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/14781906_28.jpg

"I am from Beyond!"

"You sound like you're from Earth" (616)

"From There" (616) "I looked through the Worlds Beyond Worlds --
and saw This Distant Universe" (Microverse) "was in trouble."



********* IS THIS TRUE? **********


Did Beyonder really look at UniverseS BEYOND UniverseS while sitting in 616
and noticed a DISTANT Universe called the Microverse in his journey?


yes ... back in the Hulk tie-in!


Beyonder sitting in 616 acknowledges there's more than just a Universe in Marvel
this is actually an infinite Multiverse of UniverseS:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/14781710_a.jpg

----------------------

Beyonder went looking for Bruce,
who was WAY OUTSIDE 616 in Another Dimension called the "CrossRoads of Infinity"
located in the Neagtive Zone which is also located OUTSIDE 616. (remember Annihilation)

But he enjoyed the scenic view across the Myriad Planes (universeS)
as he traveled to the CrossRoads!

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/14781711_a1.jpg

----------------------

Beyonder passes by the Microverse (A DISTANT Universe BEYOND UniverseS)
and off-panel noticed Scion's cry who told us in Micronauts V2 #16.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/14781861_OUTSIDE_616.jpg


-------------------------------------------------------------


So ...

... Was the Micro-Cosmos that contains the Microverse a Parallel Universe Outside 616
during Secret Wars II published in 1985?

...Was the Micro Cosmos an Alternate Universe from the infinity of the Multiverse
taken by the "Makers" and re-made in their liking into the Micro-Cosmos
during Secret Wars II published in 1985?


YES!


According to:

Hank Pym 1980 - (5 years BEFORE SS II)

Reed Richards & FF - 1984 - (1 Year BEFORE SS II)

Commander Raan and Dr Strange - 1981 - (4 Years BEFORE SS II)

Commander Raan - 1984 (1 Year BEFOR SSII)

Beyonder (1985 - DURING SS II)

... and explicitly so every single issue AFTER Micronauts V1 #25 (1981)


-------------------------------------------------------------


I luvs ya L, but I'm done here my good friend.

sure, i'll buy that. but like i said to opr--that's doesn't imply it's not part of 616 eternity.

the heart of my issue with saying eternity compromises only on SINGLE universe has been exemplified wonderfully in the last page by you and opr. you're trying to decide amongst yourselves if the eternity shown was intended to be the 'multiversal' form or not.

well, that discussion seems....silly to me. we already KNOW, from on-panel evidence, that eternity comprises more than a universe. this was well before the concept of a multiversal/multi-eternity ever existed. EVERY eternity in existence is a multiverse unto itself, imo. ASPECTS of eternity represent individual universes/dimensions/realities, etc.... but each contains ONLY A SINGLE VERSION OF EACH REALITY THAT MAKES IT UP.

alternate eternities possess differing versions of many of the same dimensions.

now, take all the eternities (each a multiverse in itself) and look at the collective sum and you have the GREATER MULTIVERSE. that's why we can literally HAVE more than 1 multiverse. it also ends the debate about universal/multiversal eternity, and of course there is NEVER cause to mention multi-eternity, the entity that supposedly represents the entirety of the GREATER MULTIVERSE. and he should never be brought up, imo, as he has never made a definitive appearance in any book, ever. he was alluded to by cap universe, but there has never been anything else. to retroactively and, via reader discretion, ascribe appearances by eternity as being appearances by MULTI-eternity just never made any sense to me.

i think the idea of eternity as a 'minor' multiverse solves a LOT of inconsistencies. it also has the advantage of having a lot of support. for example--the eternity in the defenders mini--we know it was 616 eternity, because he referenced fighting dormmy in the past. he recalled it. we can do 2 things: one, assume this is a multiversal version of eternity who just....shares the collective conscious of the regular 616 eternity (that seems....needlessly complex imo, and requires speculation i'm not comfortable with), or, two, we just assume it is 616 eternity, the SAME one that fought dormmy and he is simply a multiverse. not THE GREATER multiverse, just A 'minor' multiverse, one in the grand scheme of infinite multiverses.

seems simple and clear to me.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master

I still haven't seen a single instance where there was an entire Universe withIN 616 or any other.

the builder stated ON PANEL that the NZ is WITHIN the universe. it can't get much clear. the only way around it is to simply relegate it to pis or bad writing. imo, that is not at all necessary.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
no expression ... wait, huh?

not sure how to be more clear. something CAN be separate from, yet still BE a part of a greater whole..... a virus is a part of me, yet still it is WITHIN me. it exists within me yet is still a separate entity....there are loads of cases to support the stance both in the real world and comic world....

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if that were possible Nowadays.
Marvel has changed much, it's difficult to keep up with the constant flux with "life" as another priority lol.

But yea, I'm starting to realize leo, opr and myself are all wrong and right.
leo was right after all, there's too many writers/interpretations to neatly fit this into a perfect painting.

I've noticed books cater to their own ideas many times, even though they're all Marvel.
X-Men world, FF world, Dr Strange world, Britain/Excalibur/Exiles world and so on.

I know Leo gets what I'm saying here cause I think this is the foundation of his point, and he's right.

The debate is pointless, there are certain things that are of course concrete,
but in the cosmology aspect of comics, nothing's set in stone and worse yet,
things evidently change very quickly anyway. (at-least Nowadays for sure)
There was a more structured established understanding imo before,
it may not have been absolute, but it was manageable.

The debate from now on for me will depend on the writers type of usual story-line,
or book title rather, cause that says it all. That would give me an idea of what to expect from their interpretation.

Well anyway, bottom-line is we can add different points of views concerning different stories,
and if they add up that's great and will solidify a claim more,
but if not, if it's contradicted by another story/writer and still both make sense,
then it's just separate angles to look at the idea from.

Imo.

i agree with this, obviously. thumb up

really the only thing to try and do is find a solution that BEST fits most of the info. that's what i've been trying to do. for sh!ts and giggles. smile

Mr Master
^^ thumb up

Originally posted by leonidas

well, that discussion seems....silly to me. we already KNOW, from on-panel evidence, that eternity comprises more than a universe. this was well before the concept of a multiversal/multi-eternity ever existed. EVERY eternity in existence is a multiverse unto itself, imo. ASPECTS of eternity represent individual universes/dimensions/realities, etc.... but each contains ONLY A SINGLE VERSION OF EACH REALITY THAT MAKES IT UP.
alternate eternities possess differing versions of many of the same dimensions.
now, take all the eternities (each a multiverse in itself) and look at the collective sum and you have the GREATER MULTIVERSE. that's why we can literally HAVE more than 1 multiverse. it also ends the debate about universal/multiversal eternity, and of course there is NEVER cause to mention multi-eternity, the entity that supposedly represents the entirety of the GREATER MULTIVERSE. and he should never be brought up, imo, as he has never made a definitive appearance in any book, ever. he was alluded to by cap universe, but there has never been anything else. to retroactively and, via reader discretion, ascribe appearances by eternity as being appearances by MULTI-eternity just never made any sense to me.
I don't really agree that every individual Eternity/Infinity is a multiverse unto itself,
but I can accept each individual Eternity/Infinity containing "pockets" somehow.
In Marvel, and I don't think that's ever changed, a/the Multiverse is an infinite number of individual whole/entire alternate-parallel/diverged UniverseS.

Imo, Eternity/Infinity 616 could be made up of galaxies/stars/planets and pockets.
Although I still don't think the pockets are located withIN the physical universe 616,
but in a limited sized carved out "pocket" containing its own space yet within 616 Eternity/Infinity.

Imo ... and that's about as far as I'll go.
Originally posted by leonidas

i think the idea of eternity as a 'minor' multiverse solves a LOT of inconsistencies. it also has the advantage of having a lot of support. for example--the eternity in the defenders mini--we know it was 616 eternity, because he referenced fighting dormmy in the past. he recalled it. we can do 2 things: one, assume this is a multiversal version of eternity who just....shares the collective conscious of the regular 616 eternity (that seems....needlessly complex imo, and requires speculation i'm not comfortable with), or, two, we just assume it is 616 eternity, the SAME one that fought dormmy and he is simply a multiverse. not THE GREATER multiverse, just A 'minor' multiverse, one in the grand scheme of infinite multiverses.
I disagree with this good friend.

First, on panel we've seen an alternate Eternity speak about itself as though it was the Multiverse,
even though its physical matter was rubbed out of existence.
This alternate spoke about countless others that make up its Totality.
Then Strange references that comment and reasons that there are an infinite number of other UniverseS because of it.
"Other universeS" meaning Other Eternities ... since theirs (Strange/Surfer/Jean) was rubbed out.

This clearly means they all share the same consciousness. So they all know what they have all experienced.

That aside, the term "Multiverse" was used at-least 5 times,
and references to millions and tens of millions of universeS was mentioned,
on top of labeling the entire 616 universe as a little universe in comparison with what Umar had become.

So yea L, this one was too direct to be guessed upon:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17786627_DormyMulti1.jpg

"It always comes down to conquering the Universe, well, Multiverse in my case"

The context in that sentence differentiates the two terms (Universe & Multiverse) as two separate meanings.

We can't start fixing your cool idea on every story now friend, cause where do we draw the line then.

Also, Dormy saw all kinds of crazy when he was entering the heart of Eternity,
dimensions folding into themselves, entire universeS being born ... and dying,
even your worlds within worlds view was thrown in, and that was just a fraction,
until he actually hit the center and got the full picture.

It had to have been a Multiversal representation of Eternity. Imo.

operator616
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ thumb up ... That's weird, rogue idiot writers perhaps?
Well, maybe it's been changed again to being atomic universes. (although yur other scans contradict that)
Still ... it doesn't change the fact that during (and years before) SW II it was what I proved it was.

Therefore, the Beyonder scene where he walks the Multiverse, is the actual Multiverse (passes NZ-Micro-Crossroads)
and Not a multiverse within the universe, or Shooter meaning 616 was a multiverse.

I'm sure you'll agree to that at-least.

That was the whole point of me posting those irrefutable scans concerning the Micro-Cosmos during SW I-II.


Yeah, while it is called as "worlds within worlds", it's still regarded as being a separate/parallel universe, i already posted a scan from Cable (which would be from the next issue after the "worlds within worlds" statement) confirming that it's separate. Alpha Flight also makes a reference to the spacewall:

http://i.imgur.com/InptbDa.jpg?2

So, nothing has been changed, the handbooks throughout the years also confirm this:

You'll notice that the handbooks over the years never changed the definition of the microverse, it's always been:

A parallel universe that may be reached from Earth by reducing one's mass to a certain point, thereby creating a nexus. They are erroneously thought to exist within the atoms of our universe

OHOTMU vol. 2:

http://i.imgur.com/QmSczei.jpg?1

OHOTMU vol. 3:

http://i.imgur.com/uLZQlkb.jpg?1

All new OHOTMU:

http://i.imgur.com/EkQfxNK.jpg?1

I also posted another handbook which contains Microverse's entry. All say the same thing.

If you want a more recent comic, then here's one from 2009 (Mighty Avengers #25):

http://i.imgur.com/sQVfRVv.jpg?1

"our universe into the microverse" (clearly differentiating between the two).

Like i said, Microverse being referred to as "worlds within worlds/inside our universe", doesn't change the fact that it's erroneously believed to be so, and most importantly: established to have a spacewall separating the mainstream universe from the microverse. <---That imo, is all the proof we need.

And yeah, i completely agree with you on your interpretation of the microverse, never disagreed with it.

Originally posted by Mr Master

I didn't disregard them, I believe I responded to that part of your post.


In your next response (directed at Galan), you said that you haven't seen a single instance where there was an entire universe within 616 or any other....

Originally posted by Mr Master

Nah. Since those are "Whole" Universes with Pasts/FutureS and a Present.

I disagree opr. That was definitely a Multiversal portrayal in Infinity Crusade.

Remember good friend,
Eternity in that scene with Strange (Infinity Crusade) didn't give a rats ass about the 616 Universe.

Eternity called the 616 Reality ... "one Dimension ... an infinitesimal part of myself"

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17780987/ET_doesnt_care_about_616-5.jpg.html

-----------------------------------

Actually, in three separate scenarios (involving Infinity Crusade) in 3 different books,
Eternity & even Infinity was/were portrayed not caring about the 616 Universe.

I already addressed the Strange scene, here's another with Eternity and Warlock:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17780983/ET_doesnt_care_about_616-1.jpg.html

-----------------------------------

Here's another with Eternity and Infinity plus Warlock again:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17780984/ET_doesnt_care_about_616-2.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17780985/ET_doesnt_care_about_616-3.jpg.html

-----------------------------------

Eternity/Infinity didn't care about the demise of the 616 Universe, but he did care about the Multiverse!

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17780989/ET_doesnt_care_about_616-7.jpg.html

-----------------------------------

As you can see, if this was just a singular Eternity/Infinity and nothing else,
that verbal tone would be senseless. It's also obvious that the dialogue tells us
they are more than a single universe that may or may not contain "pockets."

You're a reasonable debater, I'm sure you'll agree even if you don't voice that, as I would.


Yeah, i did express doubt regarding this particular idea. Although try to hear me out. Starlin chose to portray Eternity throughout Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War as universal. And Eternity also appeared before Strange in issue #36 of his series and was regarded as being universal (of course there are several other instances where Eternity was confirmed universal, most importantly in IG #5, where he challenges Thanos to see who'll become the master of "this" reality):

http://i.imgur.com/PDxfro3.jpg

That was directly before the 1st issue of Warlock & the Infinity Watch (where Eternity presents his case to the LT of Warlock being unworthy to wield the IG), and this is also where Eternity clearly says that he is the embodiment of "this universe" (this was clearly a reference to 616-reality despite them being inside DoM):

http://i.imgur.com/9GUMSlx.jpg?1

....Same Eternity who was shown in Infinity Crusade, your scan from Warlock Chronicles #2, solidifies this point, when it directly references the events of Warlock & the infinity watch #1:

http://i.imgur.com/6HxVnxu.jpg?1

So while i cannot say that you're wrong (your argument is clearly a strong and a reasonable one) but im just telling you where this idea of mine comes from. That's why i said in my previous post that "it directly involves prior events such as the IG and IW.

Although, now i remembered that in Defenders v3, Eternity (despite being portrayed as fully multiversal), did say that he had a prior encounter with Dormammu (a reference to Strange Tales v1 #146), where he was just universal. So that kinda weakens my case, i just remembered this now.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Cool scans. The Dark Dimension is a special case I believe, because it's a
universe which merged a bunch of tiny pockets if I'm not mistaken. The DD
was a pocket itself I believe. I gotta flip pages on this so I'll be back on that.

I'll get that link to where its explained meticulously how these "pockets" work,
why it seems they're located within the universe when we see a ball, door, box, whathaveyou.

Although I'll submit, until I find the direct info to establish my point, I can't decisively explain away your scans.

You're interpretation may be correct. You don't believe this applies to all pockets though right?

That aside, ... from what I've known,
Pockets may seem to be in the universe but they actually occupy their own space, I know that's a fact.
This is true even if they're part of the greater Eternity/infinity.
Which is why you end up in another place when you enter one. (a place un-reachable via distance-travelling speed)

No, you're not mistaken, Dark Dimension did in fact, merge with several realities. This was initially shown Dr Strange v2 (Master of Mystic Arts series) #71, and then retold in later issues:

http://i.imgur.com/eAl8Z3z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7Pjcugb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6kNb56l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hsLNG7T.jpg

...But how's that diminish my point? I clearly said "Certain universes" in my initial post, i am well aware that it's a special case, this was even shown in the same issue that i posted the "Dark dimension containing pocket universes" scan from:

http://i.imgur.com/dj8keeK.jpg?1

And no, i don't believe this applies to all pockets, obviously.

operator616
The text was too long, so i continued my reply here, Mr Master.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if that were possible Nowadays.
Marvel has changed much, it's difficult to keep up with the constant flux with "life" as another priority lol.

But yea, I'm starting to realize leo, opr and myself are all wrong and right.
leo was right after all, there's too many writers/interpretations to neatly fit this into a perfect painting.

I've noticed books cater to their own ideas many times, even though they're all Marvel.
X-Men world, FF world, Dr Strange world, Britain/Excalibur/Exiles world and so on.

I know Leo gets what I'm saying here cause I think this is the foundation of his point, and he's right.

The debate is pointless, there are certain things that are of course concrete,
but in the cosmology aspect of comics, nothing's set in stone and worse yet,
things evidently change very quickly anyway. (at-least Nowadays for sure)
There was a more structured established understanding imo before,
it may not have been absolute, but it was manageable.

The debate from now on for me will depend on the writers type of usual story-line,
or book title rather, cause that says it all. That would give me an idea of what to expect from their interpretation.

Well anyway, bottom-line is we can add different points of views concerning different stories,
and if they add up that's great and will solidify a claim more,
but if not, if it's contradicted by another story/writer and still both make sense,
then it's just separate angles to look at the idea from.

Imo.

Pretty much. Yeah ive noticed certain titles/writers use concepts/terms in a different matter than others.

I also on the 1st page you saying that there's only 1 type of a multiverse (which consists of alternate universes), but as a matter of fact, Marvel in these years, has referenced a "pocket multiverse", like in Deadpool Killustrated #2:

http://i.imgur.com/tUq7Yj4.jpg?1


Originally posted by leonidas

well, the microverse issue, like the NZ as you guessed, is pretty easily explained away. hell, in the real world the quantum world has a different set of natural laws but yeah, i can easily see the microverse existing within 616 universe, like so many others can and do. but of course you'd need to pass some barrier to enter it, like you'd have to pass a barrier or dimensional wall to enter ANY other dimension/universe. we've also seen that reed has a simple door that opens to the NZ.


Reed has a "simple door".....? Come on, you know better.

Anyway, i can understand you arguing about the Microverse (it being called "world within world" or a "universe inside of our own"wink. But there's no denying NG's status. You still haven't answered the distortion area question.

And no, it doesn't depend on the title. Captain Marvel v4 #24, directly references the distortion area which leads to the Negative Zone:

http://i.imgur.com/jB6TEYU.jpg?1

Handbook directly referencing the distortion area:

http://i.imgur.com/FiPCJRe.jpg?1

Official Index to the FF #7, directly references the distortion area:

http://i.imgur.com/m0450cg.jpg?1

Same distortion area which is between realitIES (FF #253):

http://i.imgur.com/452XmV1.jpg?1

That's how it's always been. From FF annual #6 (one of its first appearances):

http://i.imgur.com/EVPj2cb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0BmTINJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nkr0Uzr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2QL3zHZ.jpg

"we're entering the distortion area".

Right to its most recent (more recent than your scan from Avengers v5 #21):

http://i.imgur.com/J5KyD1R.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/w4YyAem.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RLQaDFn.jpg

I could dedicate a whole post with references to NZ being a parallel/separate reality (from various titles), im just giving you 3 different sources (on panel, handbook, Index) to confirm that everything contradicts that point of yours.

That isn't to say that the NZ can only be reached by traveling through the distortion area, just that the fact that it's shown to clearly be a separate reality (via the distortion area) should settle it.

And what you're suggesting is impossible. Because Anti matter universe cannot exist within a matter.

That's setting aside the countless times the Negative Zone has been called as being "a parallel/separate" reality.

So im not sure why you're still clinging to that single Avengers scan of yours that contradicts EVERYTHING.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm....not really sure what you're asking me, or how the fact that the both the microverse and the NZ are lept apart from our universe by their respective barriers somehow implies they can't still exist within our universe? confused


You said that one can simply "shrink" to get to the microverse, which implies that it's simply a "tinier" universe.

I, responded with proof that it merely breaks the dimensional barrier which has always been separating the 616 universe and the separate microverse.


Originally posted by leonidas

ps--incidentally, i've only said i COULD see the microverse existing within our universe. i never really had much of an opinion if ot did. i DO think it has a place within eternity though, and at the heart, this is what the discussion has been about.

Then clarify your stance. Which one is it, in our universe or out?(stronger evidence pointing toward the former).

I disagree that the microverse is within Eternity. Eternity embodies the 616 reality along with some pocket dimensions. Microverse is separate.

We also have Mighty Avengers #35 (and this was even confirmed before that in that same series, but this one is a bit clearer), dissociating Eternity from the microverse, indirectly:

http://i.imgur.com/886dWAv.jpg

So, Overspace is above the mainstream 616 universe (which Eternity embodies), which in itself is above/separate from the microverse.

Note: In case you don't know what the overspace refers to, it's dimension where cosmic beings reside (like the DoM). This was confirmed (i can post scans if needed).

Epicurus
Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if that were possible Nowadays.
Read Avengers #24.NOW. In case you want specifics, this is the first time we see Hickman's adult Franklin appear in an issue outside of the F4/FF series.

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
The text was too long, so i continued my reply here, Mr Master.



Pretty much. Yeah ive noticed certain titles/writers use concepts/terms in a different matter than others.

I also on the 1st page you saying that there's only 1 type of a multiverse (which consists of alternate universes), but as a matter of fact, Marvel in these years, has referenced a "pocket multiverse", like in Deadpool Killustrated #2:

http://i.imgur.com/tUq7Yj4.jpg?1




Reed has a "simple door".....? Come on, you know better.

Anyway, i can understand you arguing about the Microverse (it being called "world within world" or a "universe inside of our own"wink. But there's no denying NG's status. You still haven't answered the distortion area question.

And no, it doesn't depend on the title. Captain Marvel v4 #24, directly references the distortion area which leads to the Negative Zone:

http://i.imgur.com/jB6TEYU.jpg?1

Handbook directly referencing the distortion area:

http://i.imgur.com/FiPCJRe.jpg?1

Official Index to the FF #7, directly references the distortion area:

http://i.imgur.com/m0450cg.jpg?1

Same distortion area which is between realitIES (FF #253):

http://i.imgur.com/452XmV1.jpg?1

That's how it's always been. From FF annual #6 (one of its first appearances):

http://i.imgur.com/EVPj2cb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0BmTINJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nkr0Uzr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2QL3zHZ.jpg

"we're entering the distortion area".

Right to its most recent (more recent than your scan from Avengers v5 #21):

http://i.imgur.com/J5KyD1R.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/w4YyAem.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RLQaDFn.jpg

I could dedicate a whole post with references to NZ being a parallel/separate reality (from various titles), im just giving you 3 different sources (on panel, handbook, Index) to confirm that everything contradicts that point of yours.

That isn't to say that the NZ can only be reached by traveling through the distortion area, just that the fact that it's shown to clearly be a separate reality (via the distortion area) should settle it.

And what you're suggesting is impossible. Because Anti matter universe cannot exist within a matter.

That's setting aside the countless times the Negative Zone has been called as being "a parallel/separate" reality.

So im not sure why you're still clinging to that single Avengers scan of yours that contradicts EVERYTHING.



You said that one can simply "shrink" to get to the microverse, which implies that it's simply a "tinier" universe.

I, responded with proof that it merely breaks the dimensional barrier which has always been separating the 616 universe and the separate microverse.




Then clarify your stance. Which one is it, in our universe or out?(stronger evidence pointing toward the former).

I disagree that the microverse is within Eternity. Eternity embodies the 616 reality along with some pocket dimensions. Microverse is separate.

We also have Mighty Avengers #35 (and this was even confirmed before that in that same series, but this one is a bit clearer), dissociating Eternity from the microverse, indirectly:

http://i.imgur.com/886dWAv.jpg

So, Overspace is above the mainstream 616 universe (which Eternity embodies), which in itself is above/separate from the microverse.

Note: In case you don't know what the overspace refers to, it's dimension where cosmic beings reside (like the DoM). This was confirmed (i can post scans if needed).

and you're free to disagree. my stance has always been crystal clear though--eternity is a multiverse. the thing that gets murky (and i've said this in previous posts on this topic) is the location and of the other realities relative to each other. could the microverse be separate instead of within our universe? sure. does it have to be? no, not imo. you DO need to shrink to reach it. a corollary of shrinking to a certain degree is that you leave our universe and enter the microverse. if you shrunk in an ALTERNATE earth, you'd end up in an ALTERNATE microverse though. the alternate micro comes as part of the package of an alternate earth 616 universe which of course is part of an alternate eternity.

and @mrm--again, it's not a pick and choose circumstance, IMHO. eternity HAS been shown to be multiversal. the one dormmy fought ages ago WAS the eternity he fought in that defenders mini. him speaking in a universal sense DOES NOT PRECLUDE HIM BEING MULTIVERSAL, AS THAT WHAT IF SHOWED. he WAS an aspect. he still comprised the rest of the minor multiverse he represents. again, imo.

i'm glad you're willing to amend your stance even to a small degree though. i think we've all maybe learned something, and in that sense the discussion has been productive for some things at least. smile

Epicurus
I agree that Eternity is a multiverse, though not in the same vein as Leo.

Galan007
Originally posted by Epicurus
Read Avengers #24.NOW. In case you want specifics, this is the first time we see Hickman's adult Franklin appear in an issue outside of the F4/FF series. thumb up

...And he now wields a pre-rape-smirk of abstract proportions:
http://i.imgur.com/2WCbEv1.jpg

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616

Yeah, while it is called as "worlds within worlds", it's still regarded as being a separate/parallel universe, i already posted a scan from Cable (which would be from the next issue after the "worlds within worlds" statement) confirming that it's separate. Alpha Flight also makes a reference to the spacewall:

http://i.imgur.com/InptbDa.jpg?2

So, nothing has been changed, the handbooks throughout the years also confirm this:

You'll notice that the handbooks over the years never changed the definition of the microverse, it's always been:

A parallel universe that may be reached from Earth by reducing one's mass to a certain point, thereby creating a nexus. They are erroneously thought to exist within the atoms of our universe

OHOTMU vol. 2:

http://i.imgur.com/QmSczei.jpg?1

OHOTMU vol. 3:

http://i.imgur.com/uLZQlkb.jpg?1

All new OHOTMU:

http://i.imgur.com/EkQfxNK.jpg?1

I also posted another handbook which contains Microverse's entry. All say the same thing.

If you want a more recent comic, then here's one from 2009 (Mighty Avengers #25):

http://i.imgur.com/sQVfRVv.jpg?1

"our universe into the microverse" (clearly differentiating between the two).

Like i said, Microverse being referred to as "worlds within worlds/inside our universe", doesn't change the fact that it's erroneously believed to be so, and most importantly: established to have a spacewall separating the mainstream universe from the microverse. <---That imo, is all the proof we need.

And yeah, i completely agree with you on your interpretation of the microverse, never disagreed with it.
Get a hurst, cause this coffin is sealed. smile

Nice job.
Originally posted by operator616

In your next response (directed at Galan), you said that you haven't seen a
single instance where there was an entire universe within 616 or any other....
I'm not referring to certain pockets anymore since that needs more info for a conclusion.
I'm talking about entire/whole universes merged/meshed/combined into/with 616's physical universe.

You feel me opr? Think about it, Franklin's pocket-reality isn't a foot across in size,
unless it's ridiculously miniaturized, then cool. Although that's not the case.
So, there are full sized stars, planets and whathaveyou in a Foot long universe? I disagree.

It makes more sense, that he enters the physical visualization of his pocket located in 616,
and disappears into another dimension where his stars/planets and so on is located.
I also believe the pocket (certain pockets at-least) can be withIN Eternity/Infinity due to your scans.

Imo at-least.
Originally posted by operator616

Yeah, i did express doubt regarding this particular idea. Although try to hear me out. Starlin chose to portray Eternity throughout Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War as universal. And Eternity also appeared before Strange in issue #36 of his series and was regarded as being universal (of course there are several other instances where Eternity was confirmed universal, most importantly in IG #5, where he challenges Thanos to see who'll become the master of "this" reality):

http://i.imgur.com/PDxfro3.jpg

That was directly before the 1st issue of Warlock & the Infinity Watch (where Eternity presents his case to the LT of Warlock being unworthy to wield the IG), and this is also where Eternity clearly says that he is the embodiment of "this universe" (this was clearly a reference to 616-reality despite them being inside DoM):

http://i.imgur.com/9GUMSlx.jpg?1

....Same Eternity who was shown in Infinity Crusade, your scan from Warlock Chronicles #2, solidifies this point, when it directly references the events of Warlock & the infinity watch #1:

http://i.imgur.com/6HxVnxu.jpg?1

So while i cannot say that you're wrong (your argument is clearly a strong and a reasonable one) but im just telling you where this idea of mine comes from. That's why i said in my previous post that "it directly involves prior events such as the IG and IW.

Although, now i remembered that in Defenders v3, Eternity (despite being portrayed as fully multiversal), did say that he had a prior encounter with Dormammu (a reference to Strange Tales v1 #146), where he was just universal. So that kinda weakens my case, i just remembered this now.
That's a solid stance, but you're right the Dormy joint kinda weakens it.
Originally posted by operator616

No, you're not mistaken, Dark Dimension did in fact, merge with several realities. This was initially shown Dr Strange v2 (Master of Mystic Arts series) #71, and then retold in later issues:

http://i.imgur.com/eAl8Z3z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7Pjcugb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6kNb56l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hsLNG7T.jpg

...But how's that diminish my point? I clearly said "Certain universes" in my initial post, i am well aware that it's a special case, this was even shown in the same issue that i posted the "Dark dimension containing pocket universes" scan from:

http://i.imgur.com/dj8keeK.jpg?1

And no, i don't believe this applies to all pockets, obviously.
thumb up

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616

Pretty much. Yeah ive noticed certain titles/writers use concepts/terms in a different matter than others.

I also on the 1st page you saying that there's only 1 type of a multiverse (which consists of alternate universes), but as a matter of fact, Marvel in these years, has referenced a "pocket multiverse", like in Deadpool Killustrated #2:

http://i.imgur.com/tUq7Yj4.jpg?1
thumb up To be fair to myself, I never got into Deadpool comics,
Every time I came across one, it had this goofy undertone in their writing making them annoying, to me.

Also, that's "Deadpool" world. Remember my point above concerning different books/writers.
So basically, certain ideas may cater to their books specifically.

Or the scan is yet another new concept. (although you'd probably have to be a Deadpool fan to know about it.)
Originally posted by operator616

Reed has a "simple door".....? Come on, you know better.

Anyway, i can understand you arguing about the Microverse (it being called "world within world" or a "universe inside of our own"wink. But there's no denying NG's status. You still haven't answered the distortion area question.

And no, it doesn't depend on the title. Captain Marvel v4 #24, directly references the distortion area which leads to the Negative Zone:

http://i.imgur.com/jB6TEYU.jpg?1

Handbook directly referencing the distortion area:

http://i.imgur.com/FiPCJRe.jpg?1

Official Index to the FF #7, directly references the distortion area:

http://i.imgur.com/m0450cg.jpg?1

Same distortion area which is between realitIES (FF #253):

http://i.imgur.com/452XmV1.jpg?1

That's how it's always been. From FF annual #6 (one of its first appearances):

http://i.imgur.com/EVPj2cb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0BmTINJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nkr0Uzr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2QL3zHZ.jpg

"we're entering the distortion area".

Right to its most recent (more recent than your scan from Avengers v5 #21):

http://i.imgur.com/J5KyD1R.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/w4YyAem.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RLQaDFn.jpg

I could dedicate a whole post with references to NZ being a parallel/separate reality (from various titles), im just giving you 3 different sources (on panel, handbook, Index) to confirm that everything contradicts that point of yours.

That isn't to say that the NZ can only be reached by traveling through the distortion area, just that the fact that it's shown to clearly be a separate reality (via the distortion area) should settle it.

And what you're suggesting is impossible. Because Anti matter universe cannot exist within a positive matter universe.

That's setting aside the countless times the Negative Zone has been called as being "a parallel/separate" reality.

So im not sure why you're still clinging to that single Avengers scan of yours that contradicts EVERYTHING.

You said that one can simply "shrink" to get to the microverse, which implies that it's simply a "tinier" universe.

I, responded with proof that it merely breaks the dimensional barrier which has always been separating the 616 universe and the separate microverse.

Then clarify your stance. Which one is it, in our universe or out?(stronger evidence pointing toward the former).

I disagree that the microverse is within Eternity. Eternity embodies the 616 reality along with some pocket dimensions. Microverse is separate.

We also have Mighty Avengers #35 (and this was even confirmed before that in that same series, but this one is a bit clearer), dissociating Eternity from the microverse, indirectly:

http://i.imgur.com/886dWAv.jpg

So, Overspace is above the mainstream 616 universe (which Eternity embodies), which in itself is above/separate from the microverse.

Note: In case you don't know what the overspace refers to, it's dimension where cosmic beings reside (like the DoM). This was confirmed (i can post scans if needed).
yes

Sure, these points lean towards my perspective,
but he elaborated with plenty extras to further cement the point as fact.

Leo, you can't argue this one good friend.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up To be fair to myself, I never got into Deadpool comics,
Every time I came across one, it had this goofy undertone in their writing making them annoying, to me.

Also, that's "Deadpool" world. Remember my point above concerning different books/writers.
So basically, certain ideas may cater to their books specifically.

Or the scan is yet another new concept. (although you'd probably have to be a Deadpool fan to know about it.)

yes

Sure, these points lean towards my perspective,
but he elaborated with plenty extras to further cement the point as fact.

Leo, you can't argue this one good friend.

wellllll, of course i can argue it. wink

as i said, being a parallel universe, being composed of anti-matter, none of those things PRECLUDE it being within the 616 universe. not sure how many times that can be said. matter and anti-matter DON'T touch because.....? the universes ARE separate, they ARE distinct realities, EXACTLY like 616 and it's alternates are DISTINCT realities WITHIN the multiverse. not sure why everyone seems so adamant about the exclusivity of the recent claim by the builder. it isn't some major retcon. imo it contradicts NOTHING that has been shown because everything that has been shown has shown the NZ IS A SEPARATE UNIVERSE. no one, not i, not the builder, contradicted that idea, ever. the only thing it did was change the 'relative' location of the NZ. it makes us look at the NZ in a way no one is used to. and to me that's no big deal. we (mrm and myself) discussed this longggg before this builder scan ever came out, and my stance was already firmly in place so the scan really didn't change anything for me in the grand scheme. i thought it would be more pertinent to you thb. for me, it only further cemented an idea i already took for granted. /shrug

all that said, if you don't like the scan, just throw out the builder's comment. i HATE tossing out info like that but admit that from time to time (very rarely imo) something is egregious enough to be tossed. that is NOT the case here. to me it's easier to see that the idea still fits with what we know about the NZ. if you guys want to label it PIS, by all means, do so. seriously, it doesn't matter all that much to me. the idea of universes within universes has been proven more than once in this thread by several people anyway. not sure why it's so difficult to place the NZ in that category, but do what you guys need to do. but know that imo there is no need to throw out ANY info. with only minor allowances, it fits just fine altogether.

and re: the 'distortion field'. why shouldn't there be a distortion field? if the NZ is within the 616, why would the fact that the distortion field is there as well be an issue? the distortion zone surrounds the NZ, and both are within the 616 universe. pretty simple imo. /shrug

in any event, i think most are of the opinion that eternity is indeed a multiverse, though his/its composition IS up for debate. i'll consider that victory enough given where this discussion started so long ago.

ps--epi, just out of curiosity--you said you see eternity as a multiverse as well, but differently from the way i do. care to elaborate? may shed some more light on things.

operator616
^ You're right, it's not a major retcon, it's just Hickman talking out of his ass. Ive been following his F4/FF work (where he featured the NZ multiple times) and i don't recall him regarding the NZ as a "failed pocket universe". So i don't know what's his deal...but whatever. Im not going to disregard NZ's entire history cause of him. And more recent evidence (a Deadpool comic featuring the distortion area) cleared that up, so as far as im concerned, it's settled.

Why shouldn't there be a distortion area? Well, that's because (as i showed you multiple times), that's the area between REALITIES.

Anyway, i think we've offered enough proof to solidify Microverse's and NZ's status as separate realities.

Originally posted by leonidas
and you're free to disagree. my stance has always been crystal clear though--eternity is a multiverse. the thing that gets murky (and i've said this in previous posts on this topic) is the location and of the other realities relative to each other. could the microverse be separate instead of within our universe? sure. does it have to be? no, not imo. you DO need to shrink to reach it. a corollary of shrinking to a certain degree is that you leave our universe and enter the microverse. if you shrunk in an ALTERNATE earth, you'd end up in an ALTERNATE microverse though. the alternate micro comes as part of the package of an alternate earth 616 universe which of course is part of an alternate eternity.


I see. Although, as of 2000, all the microverses got merged to form one single microverse. First revealed in Captain Marvel v4:

http://i.imgur.com/44xNY8D.jpg

Notice it references the event as happening in the "Small X-Pectations" oneshot".....when in fact, no such one-shot/event exists. Don't know what Peter David/Brevoort were thinking here, honestly.

That's also quite an important event for Marvel (merging of all the micro-realms), yet....it never had a chance to have an event of its own.

-------------------

Also, the main point is to actually breach the spacewall separating the 2 universes. Example:

Micronauts v1 #28, an interdimensional transporter is used to breach the spacewall between the 2 universes:

http://i.imgur.com/28ytRQf.jpg?1

Those are basic facts, and they are undeniable.

One last thing: Even though the Negative Zone has alternate counterparts, it doesn't mean it's inside Eternity at all. I don't see a reason to believe that the NZ is part of Eternity.

Throughout its depictions, the Negative Zone is regarded as being a separate reality (literally referred to as a "parallel", "separate", and "a universe not our own", etc...), while Eternity is the embodiment of a single ("this"wink universe (unless its a multiversal portrayal).

Im curious though, on what basis are you arguing that the NZ and microverse being within Eternity?

Originally posted by Mr Master

I'm not referring to certain pockets anymore since that needs more info for a conclusion.
I'm talking about entire/whole universes merged/meshed/combined into/with 616's physical universe.


So you're not referring to pockets, okay. But there are several instances where universes (not pockets) merge together. I can show you multiple examples even back in the day. Here's one:

The story involves FF #151-53 (mid 70s). Two full alternate realities merge together.

So there are 2 alternate realities. In their respective worlds, one is ruled by Femizons, and another by men. Notice that "world" and "universe" are used interchangeably (this is important for the ending):

http://i.imgur.com/OeHBjUj.jpg

And as the above scan says the two realities are beginning to drawn to each other. The handbook (Marvel Legacy 1970s) confirms that the two "realities" began to close to each other:

http://i.imgur.com/Se2NzKZ.jpg?1

And in the end, they end up merging, resulting in a reality/world with the 2 sexes ruling:

http://i.imgur.com/5d6zHX1.jpg

Handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/pPhlJVI.jpg?1

Does that fit with what you're demanding? Because i can give other examples, and im pretty sure that you (whom i know to be very knowledgeable when it comes to Marvel) can remember some.

Originally posted by Mr Master

You feel me opr? Think about it, Franklin's pocket-reality isn't a foot across in size,
unless it's ridiculously miniaturized, then cool. Although that's not the case.
So, there are full sized stars, planets and whathaveyou in a Foot long universe? I disagree.

It makes more sense, that he enters the physical visualization of his pocket located in 616,
and disappears into another dimension where his stars/planets and so on is located.
I also believe the pocket (certain pockets at-least) can be withIN Eternity/Infinity due to your scans.

Imo at-least.


I get what you're saying, although how is that different from the Strange Tales instance, where Strange was transported to another universe within the Dark Dimension (via a portal), and called it "worlds within worlds"?

Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up To be fair to myself, I never got into Deadpool comics,
Every time I came across one, it had this goofy undertone in their writing making them annoying, to me.

Also, that's "Deadpool" world. Remember my point above concerning different books/writers.
So basically, certain ideas may cater to their books specifically.

Or the scan is yet another new concept. (although you'd probably have to be a Deadpool fan to know about it.)


Yeah, it's only limited to Deadpool's world, for now. We'll have to wait and see if this concept will appear outside Deadpool in the future (although i highly doubt it).

More-so, the writer is a relatively new one, who btw, technically got "killed" by Deadpool, as hinted at the end of Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe #4, lol.

Originally posted by Epicurus
I agree that Eternity is a multiverse, though not in the same vein as Leo.

Yeah im curious to know, in what sense, then?

Imo, the regular 616 Eternity, is the embodiment of a single (616) universe; while every other "multiversal" depiction for Eternity should be regarded as being "Multi-Eternity".

Epicurus
Originally posted by leonidas
ps--epi, just out of curiosity--you said you see eternity as a multiverse as well, but differently from the way i do. care to elaborate? may shed some more light on things.
Your comments seem to indicate that you think that every individual Eternity is a metaphorical multiverse. If this is the case, then I disagree.

We know that universal Eternities are supposedly mere fractions/aspects of Eternity's totality, which is known as Multi-Eternity in the comics. We also that Earth-616 is the prime reality/timeline of the multiverse, and crap which happens in 616 inevitably ends up f*cking up the rest of the multiverse. Which indicates that 616-Eternity contains the core of the actual Multi-Eternity. Not to mention that since it is the true Eternity, we can colloquially refer it as "Eternity".

To me, all the misc Eternities of different universes are like Eternity's analogues of Chaos King who himself was an aspect of a higher Abstract. Similarly, these Eternities too are aspects of the actual thing, with one of them containing the soul/essence of the real deal.

Just my 2 cents.
Originally posted by operator616
Yeah im curious to know, in what sense, then?

Imo, the regular 616 Eternity, is the embodiment of a single (616) universe; while every other "multiversal" depiction for Eternity should be regarded as being "Multi-Eternity".
Read the above para.

Anyways, imo the actual Eternity should definitely be a "encompassing parallel universes" sort of multiversal being, seeing how he is the Abstract embodiment of time, and how a real multiverse would theoretically be a 4-D construct.

operator616
Originally posted by Epicurus

We know that universal Eternities are supposedly mere fractions/aspects of Eternity's totality, which is known as Multi-Eternity in the comics. We also that Earth-616 is the prime reality/timeline of the multiverse, and crap which happens in 616 inevitably ends up f*cking up the rest of the multiverse. Which indicates that 616-Eternity contains the core of the actual Multi-Eternity. Not to mention that since it is the true Eternity, we can colloquially refer it as "Eternity".


I see where you're coming from, but that particular concept (the underlined part) is not used in all the stories. So there's that.

Originally posted by Epicurus

To me, all the misc Eternities of different universes are like Eternity's analogues of Chaos King who himself was an aspect of a higher Abstract. Similarly, these Eternities too are aspects of the actual thing, with one of them containing the soul/essence of the real deal.


Trying to fit CK into this doesn't work, imo.

Because we also know that CK is 616-Eternity's opposite. While on the other hand, it's outright stated on panel that Oblivion is Eternity's opposite. The CK retcon in the Thor Annual, didn't make much of sense to me.

So while i can understand why you see the alt. Eternities being aspects of Eternity's totality in the same sense that CK is an aspect of Oblivion, it contradicts things when we look at the bigger picture.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Anyways, imo the actual Eternity should definitely be a "encompassing parallel universes" sort of multiversal being, seeing how he is the Abstract embodiment of time, and how a real multiverse would theoretically be a 4-D construct.

It should be noted though, that Eternity is sometimes portrayed as being the embodiment of the universe in all its aspects (not just time). After all, that's what Eternity was meant to represent when he was initially created (in the 60s). Infinity (embodiment of space) came later on.

Galan007
Originally posted by operator616
So you're not referring to pockets, okay. But there are several instances where universes (not pockets) merge together. I can show you multiple examples even back in the day. Here's one:

The story involves FF #151-53 (mid 70s). Two full alternate realities merge together.

So there are 2 alternate realities. In their respective worlds, one is ruled by Femizons, and another by men. Notice that "world" and "universe" are used interchangeably (this is important for the ending):

http://i.imgur.com/OeHBjUj.jpg

And as the above scan says the two realities are beginning to drawn to each other. The handbook (Marvel Legacy 1970s) confirms that the two "realities" began to close to each other:

http://i.imgur.com/Se2NzKZ.jpg?1

And in the end, they end up merging, resulting in a reality/world with the 2 sexes ruling:

http://i.imgur.com/5d6zHX1.jpg

Handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/pPhlJVI.jpg?1

Does that fit with what you're demanding? Because i can give other examples, and im pretty sure that you (whom i know to be very knowledgeable when it comes to Marvel) can remember some. Yeah, I really don't understand what the block is here. In the world of comics, size is not always relative to size--that is to say: something of nigh-infinite scope/scale *can* be housed within a very small container. I think you may have posted this scan already, but I'll go ahead and reiterate it with some additional info...

During New Mutants and X-Men Legacy, we saw that a very small/handheld wooden box actually contained an entire universe:
http://imgur.com/Zefrv0R


Confirmation that the box itself *was* a whole universe, and not simply a gateway to one...

"The pulse of the universe stirs between their fingers.":
http://imgur.com/CLOMZlB

"Someone died and left you the whole universe.":
http://imgur.com/YOwByCL

"You're holding the whole of creation in your hands.":
http://imgur.com/HUEdYX2


= Further proof of one reality existing within another. That is about as simple/basic/cut-and-dry as it gets. /shrug

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
^ You're right, it's not a major retcon, it's just Hickman talking out of his ass. Ive been following his F4/FF work (where he featured the NZ multiple times) and i don't recall him regarding the NZ as a "failed pocket universe". So i don't know what's his deal...but whatever. Im not going to disregard NZ's entire history cause of him. And more recent evidence (a Deadpool comic featuring the distortion area) cleared that up, so as far as im concerned, it's settled.

Why shouldn't there be a distortion area? Well, that's because (as i showed you multiple times), that's the area between REALITIES.

Anyway, i think we've offered enough proof to solidify Microverse's and NZ's status as separate realities.



I see. Although, as of 2000, all the microverses got merged to form one single microverse. First revealed in Captain Marvel v4:

http://i.imgur.com/44xNY8D.jpg

Notice it references the event as happening in the "Small X-Pectations" oneshot".....when in fact, no such one-shot/event exists. Don't know what Peter David/Brevoort were thinking here, honestly.

That's also quite an important event for Marvel (merging of all the micro-realms), yet....it never had a chance to have an event of its own.

-------------------

Also, the main point is to actually breach the spacewall separating the 2 universes. Example:

Micronauts v1 #28, an interdimensional transporter is used to breach the spacewall between the 2 universes:

http://i.imgur.com/28ytRQf.jpg?1

Those are basic facts, and they are undeniable.

One last thing: Even though the Negative Zone has alternate counterparts, it doesn't mean it's inside Eternity at all. I don't see a reason to believe that the NZ is part of Eternity.

Throughout its depictions, the Negative Zone is regarded as being a separate reality (literally referred to as a "parallel", "separate", and "a universe not our own", etc...), while Eternity is the embodiment of a single ("this"wink universe (unless its a multiversal portrayal).

Im curious though, on what basis are you arguing that the NZ and microverse being within Eternity?

i agree completely--NZ and microverse ARE completely separate realities. the NZ even has a buffering distortion zone. thumb up that, of course, has never been the issue.

to me, the idea that the micro and NG fit within a broader multiversal eternity comes from what ifs, as well as the clear scans that show eternity is indeed a multiverse. not MULTI-ETERNITY. just eternity. we've seen strange blatantly comment that eternity is composed of multiple universes and realities. we've seen dormmy refer to himself as mutliversal when he took control of eternity (i don't for a moment believe he was intended to have taken control of MULTI-ETERNITY, who was never referenced by name, ever, outside that singular ff arc), an eternity he battled in the past. the only way around that is to come up with some notion that each eternity shares some pool of knowledge or something with others. seems like a lot of speculation when it's easy to just go with what is on panel--the eternity dormmy battled IS a multiverse. even beyonder states our universe is multi-layered.

anyway, the proof for eternity being a multiverse, just ONE of an infinite number of mutliverses seems so clear to me that it's hard to see why it isn't just commonly accepted by this point. the lack fluidity in language in comics makes references to 'universal' all but meaningless imo.

so, if i take it as fact that eternity is indeed a mutliverse, tehn it begs the question: which comic book dimensions/realities/etc make it up? and here's where it gets murky. imo, MOST are included, but i confess i'm not sure where all of them would lie. a great deal of support comes from the fact that when an alternate 616 exists, it automatically brings with it alternate versions of nearly everything else. why would an alternate 616, have an alternate set of vishanti, if the vishanti account for magical balance in the whole multiverse? stands to reason to me that there must be ANOTHER multiverse where those alternate vishanti are magical arbiters. the same can be said of MOST dimensions. why should there be alternates of ALL these other dimensions (hell, dark dimension, crimson cosmos, NZ, micro, etc......) just because an alternate 616 is born? why wouldn't alternate 616 characters simply interact with 616 dormammu for example? every alternate 616 has an alternate asgard, an alternate hell, etc,. why? to me, it's NOT because the 616 alternate exists, it's because there is an entirely alternate MULTIVERSE from our own, and imo an eternity represents THAT multiverse as well. just a different eternity.

i suppose that multiverse doesn't need to be an alternate 'eternity'. maybe all those realms are just.....linked in some way? but to me it stands to reason--if eternity is a multiverse, it must be made of and almost infinite number of dimensions/realities. seems reasonable to assume that these separate dimensions i mentioned make up his/its multiversal TOTALITY. it explains why an alternate eternity ALSO HAS all these other ALTERNATE dimensions.

maybe i've not been very clear, but IMO it is a simple answer that ties up most of what I'VE seen in marvel comics.

leonidas
Originally posted by Epicurus
Your comments seem to indicate that you think that every individual Eternity is a metaphorical multiverse. If this is the case, then I disagree.

We know that universal Eternities are supposedly mere fractions/aspects of Eternity's totality, which is known as Multi-Eternity in the comics.

cool, and you're entitled to believe what you'd like of course. but i didn't mean eternity is a multiverse in a metaphorical sense--i mean it in a wholly literal sense. and that every eternity is ALSO a multiverse unto itself.

as for the aspects bit--i'd disagree with this. it requires retroactively applying multi-eternity to that what if issue. to me, it's easier to say that the 616 universe died, the part of eternity that represented that universe was finished, but that eternity was only part of the larger totality that still represents that multiverse. not the GREATER mutliverse that "multi-eternity" is believed to represent, just the rest of the minor multiverse that it comprises.

i wish multi-eternity had never been introduced.......

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616

So you're not referring to pockets, okay. But there are several instances where universes (not pockets) merge together. I can show you multiple examples even back in the day. Here's one:

The story involves FF #151-53 (mid 70s). Two full alternate realities merge together.
So there are 2 alternate realities. In their respective worlds, one is ruled by Femizons, and another by men. Notice that "world" and "universe" are used interchangeably (this is important for the ending):
http://i.imgur.com/OeHBjUj.jpg
And as the above scan says the two realities are beginning to drawn to each other. The handbook (Marvel Legacy 1970s) confirms that the two "realities" began to close to each other:
http://i.imgur.com/Se2NzKZ.jpg?1
And in the end, they end up merging, resulting in a reality/world with the 2 sexes ruling:
http://i.imgur.com/5d6zHX1.jpg
Handbook:
http://i.imgur.com/pPhlJVI.jpg?1

Does that fit with what you're demanding? Because i can give other examples
Wow, haven't seen that in a while, but it doesn't fit. Because it's glazed in a stipulation.

Thanx good friend, but I knew about that particular occurrence and it it's probably not a good example.

First, that merger was Un-Natural. Those were two separate Alternate realities which merged into one.
Universes aren't supposed to be meshed together
which is why Reed told us
this could not only cause the destruction of the Two universes: 'Machans' and 'Femizonia'
but of ALL the Alternate universeS including 616:

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17816427_Two_Uni_Merge_NO.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------

This is why Isabella (writer) via Reed pointed out how the "explosion"
merged both worlds without disrupting the other Alternate Universes:

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17816428_Two_Uni_Merge_NO2.jpg

This was highlighted because under normal conditions Two universes meshed = obliteration.

-----------------------------------------------------

Anyway, I forgot about that story it's been years, I also lol at Mid-70's comedy like
funny how some nuclear explosion can merge two universes warping them into one working reality,
merging them so perfectly that this un-natural state was contained
and no damage was caused to the rest of infinity.
Originally posted by operator616

and im pretty sure that you (whom i know to be very knowledgeable when it comes to Marvel) can remember some.
I appreciate you noticing that but honestly, I've never seen a story that involved two universes merged working separately.

That's a universe within a universe imo, not two universes forced merged into one universe, (working or not)
or a mini box, ball, carpet, or room that leads to another space that contains full sized galaxies and such.

Imo.

operator616
Originally posted by leonidas
to me, it's easier to say that the 616 universe died, the part of eternity that represented that universe was finished, but that eternity was only part of the larger totality that still represents that multiverse. not the GREATER mutliverse that "multi-eternity" is believed to represent, just the rest of the minor multiverse that it comprises.


Not possible, imo. Since in that What If? Eternity specifically said "of the night infinite aspects..." that's a clear reference to the nigh-infinite alternate realities, not universes such as the NZ, or pockets etc... who are associated with that reality where Eternity died.

Originally posted by leonidas

to me, the idea that the micro and NG fit within a broader multiversal eternity comes from what ifs, as well as the clear scans that show eternity is indeed a multiverse. not MULTI-ETERNITY. just eternity.


So what if the specific term "multi-Eternity" is never referred as such again?

The page clearly says that each Eternity represents a universe. While Multi-Eternity represents the multiverse. So when we have a "multiversal" portrayal for Eternity, we should automatically consider it as "multi-Eternity".

Same concept, but different terminology by different writers.

Originally posted by leonidas
we've seen strange blatantly comment that eternity is composed of multiple universes and realities.

I also thought there for a minute that this was supposed to be a reference to the pocket dimensions and the other universes associated with 616. But Mr Master pointed out that those universeS refer to future/past realities....which have to be alternate realities. He was right about that.

Originally posted by leonidas
we've seen dormmy refer to himself as mutliversal when he took control of eternity (i don't for a moment believe he was intended to have taken control of MULTI-ETERNITY, who was never referenced by name, ever, outside that singular ff arc), an eternity he battled in the past. the only way around that is to come up with some notion that each eternity shares some pool of knowledge or something with others. seems like a lot of speculation when it's easy to just go with what is on panel--the eternity dormmy battled IS a multiverse. even beyonder states our universe is multi-layered.



Just because that Eternity referenced their encounter in Strange Tales v1, doesn't mean it has to be the same one.

I remember the same thing in Defenders v1 (i already showed you some of those).

So in Defenders v1 #92, Strange encounters Eternity and recognizes him due to their previous meetings (which technically means it's the same Eternity):

http://i.imgur.com/ZKDrGtz.jpg?1

Yet, we know that this Eternity was meant to be multiversal. Because in that story, Eternity was incomplete, and as a result, reality was dying:

http://i.imgur.com/huWhtsl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HPvY9W9.jpg

We know that "reality" = multiverse, it's mentioned in the issue itself:

http://i.imgur.com/MniJ8CS.jpg?1

And a few issues later, a recollection of the event confirms it:

http://i.imgur.com/s0VL4a2.jpg?

So, we deduce that (as you said) all those Eternities share the same consciousness with Eternity's totality.

So you're saying that the Eternity whom Dormammu/Umar usurped is a multiverse in the sense that he's consisted of universe-616 along with its associated realities? .... i don't think so, it's already been pointed out that Dormammu differentiates between "universe" and "multiverse" ..... which is how it's always been. When the term "multiverse" is used, it's always meant to refer to the infinite/trans-infinite alternate realities which compromise it.

I don't think you're quite getting the Beyonder instance. It's really simple. It says that our "universe" (which is meant to refer to the actual multiverse) is many-layered composed of endless dimensions (clearly a reference to alternate realities), that's why if you look at the top of every issue of Secret Wars 2, you'll notice that it says "beyond the myriad (endless) dimensions lies another universe (Beyonder's)". We know that Beyonder's universe is beyond all the alternate realities of the multiverse. So that tells us the endless dimensions = endless alternate realities. That much is indisputable, imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
a great deal of support comes from the fact that when an alternate 616 exists, it automatically brings with it alternate versions of nearly everything else. why would an alternate 616, have an alternate set of vishanti, if the vishanti account for magical balance in the whole multiverse? stands to reason to me that there must be ANOTHER multiverse where those alternate vishanti are magical arbiters.

That would be because one Vishanti exists. Agamotto'd realm for one, is confirmed to be outside Eternity.

In Infinity War, when Galactus, Strange, SS, and Nova were traveling throughout the dimensional corridor (passing past realities), they come across Agamotto's realm who snatches Strange from the ship. Strange tells Agamotto that because Eternity is catatonic, the whole universe is in danger:

http://i.imgur.com/TH4LVAW.jpg?1

Agamotto's reply was: your universe not mine:

http://i.imgur.com/7AjH9m0.jpg?1

That definitely confirms that he's outside Eternity.

As a collective, they appeared to come from The relam of "Magick", which was shown in the the 3rd silver surfer series.

in a later issue (#31). It's explained that as LT's 3 faces represent vengeance, necessity, and equity (represented by Death, Eternity, and Galactus respectively). The realm of Vishanti (Magick) have Lord Chaos, Master order and Inbetweener representing those three concepts:

http://i.imgur.com/wCn8mRS.jpg

Just like it was explained in SS v3 #16:

http://i.imgur.com/hXNmh0J.jpg

So they don't have alternate reality counterparts, they have their own universe from which they come from.

Originally posted by leonidas
the same can be said of MOST dimensions. why should there be alternates of ALL these other dimensions (hell, dark dimension, crimson cosmos, NZ, micro, etc......) just because an alternate 616 is born? why wouldn't alternate 616 characters simply interact with 616 dormammu for example? every alternate 616 has an alternate asgard, an alternate hell, etc,. why? to me, it's NOT because the 616 alternate exists, it's because there is an entirely alternate MULTIVERSE from our own, and imo an eternity represents THAT multiverse as well. just a different eternity.


Alternate characters don't interact with 616 Dormammu, because those dimensions that are associated with a specific reality, surround man's world (surround the universe). Scan from Dr Strange v3 #31 (IG tie in):

http://i.imgur.com/tX3DfUB.jpg?1

(notice that Dormammu is shown, so his dimension is included to "surround man's world).

So every Dark Dimension surrounds its respective universe, that's why they interact with each of their respective universes. (there are several other instances solidifying this).

Another thing worth mentioning: I noticed that you included the Crimson Cosmos as part of the dimensions associated with a reality....but it's not, only one Crimson Cosmos exists. It actually exists within the Gem of Cyttorak, and on the other hand it can be reached by other means (like traveling throughout the dimensional corridor).

That's why it's called as being "between dimensions" (definitely alternate universes), even back in the day (X-men #32)

http://i.imgur.com/VXgcSFM.jpg?1

(this is confirmed several times)

Although there's still the fact that it exists within the Gem somehow....confirmed by multiple sources. And we see instances where people enter the gem and pop up in the crimson cosmos (and we know that's where Cyttorak created it)

But anyway, point is, there's only one.

Originally posted by leonidas
every alternate 616 has an alternate asgard, an alternate hell, etc,. why? to me, it's NOT because the 616 alternate exists, it's because there is an entirely alternate MULTIVERSE from our own, and imo an eternity represents THAT multiverse as well. just a different eternity.

You terminology is wrong, imo. Those cannot be called "multiverse". You can call it that yourself if you want, but i know for a fact that Marvel does not, because a multiverse only refers to the set of alternate universes that compromise it.

Another point is that, Eternity does not encompass every dimension associated with a certain reality. I can say for sure that it does not encompass the NZ.

So again, on what basis are you saying that the NZ or the microverse are within Eternity?

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
Not possible, imo. Since in that What If? Eternity specifically said "of the night infinite aspects..." that's a clear reference to the nigh-infinite alternate realities, not universes such as the NZ, or pockets etc... who are associated with that reality where Eternity died.

iyo. thumb up




then i'll pass him off as a myth most likely.



not at all imo. we've seen eternity reach for strange, seen strange reference universes within universes as the hand reaches for him. why would i ascribe that to a one-time only myth called multi-eternity. imo, if marvel was really sold on that concept, they'd have pushed it in the crazy cosmic stories they've turned out in the last 10 years. they certainly wouldn't resort to confusing readers, or forcing readers to try and figure out on their own just which eternity/consciousness of eternity, is being discussed.

and any time the term universe is used as proof is pretty meaningless imo. the term has been rendered meaingless and only seems to get ascribed a specific meaning when someone is looking for it to HAVE a specific meaning. we can say eternity represents a universe, but then when we're told thanos and the hotu absorbed a universe we're to assume it's the multiverse. you can find as many universe scans as you'd like. i've seen on panel through strange and dormmy that eternity is a multiversal entity. and seeing it means i don't have to discover via distantly connected dots that eternities MAY share a consciousness and thereby be forced to fit a conclusion that the vast majority of readers would never, in a million years be able to make.... that conclusion being that the eternity dormmy took over wasn't in fact the same eternity he fought. rather it was a more....widely conscious? eternity? nah. i'll take what i saw, and saw more than once on panel. occam's razor. no disparate dots to connect.



that sword cuts both ways. thumb up



in his opinion. thumb up



thumb up i agree. in that instance, like in ALL instances, eternity is multiversal.



why should we be forced to deduce anything? eternity is multiversal. the only time deductions are required seems to be when you need to explain away some proof that may lend credence to eternitiy's multiversal nature. that's why i like my theory better.



yep. i'd wager giffen had that in mind as well, instead of imbuing all the subtext you're saying is required to fully understand the scene.



but said universe..... and eternity is said to be a universe as well. why doesn't that mean HE's a multiverse? you have your opinion, like mrm does. that's cool. it just isn't mine. at all.



it says outside eternity somewhere? not outside the universe. outside eternity? because if he is a multiverse his universe is separate and WOULD be fine if 616 fell. like the other aspects of that what if eternity....



confirms its outside the universe, it certainly does.




huh? of course they have counterparts.....



that doesn't explain the reason they have counterparts at all, especially just because 616 is remade. so let's label eternity the sum of the man's world worlds then. works for me.



which is why i keep saying minor multiverse. the language in marvel is f'd. there is no consistency and so no way to USE the language in anyway that is consistent.



iyo. thumb up



i'd refer you back to the previous post as nothing that was shown here changes my way of thinking.

tbh, there's really nothing you CAN show (believe me, mrm has tried and tried over the years, and he's shown much of what you've shown in the last posts) save this: a scan that specifically states ETERNITY encompasses ONLY the 616 universe and NO OTHER. even his bio references his representing everything in all planes of existence. show me a scan that says he SPECIFICALLY does not represent ANY other dimension (even something like asgard which would then relegate eternity to being nothing more than a small piece of the far greater nine worlds.....a silly realization imo) and i will happily concede. until then, i'll continue to believe what was shown, and forego having to connect distant dots, or having to try and deduce which version of eternity is being spoken of. hope this didn't sound snarky. not my intent. just that mrm and i have covered almost all of this over many threads, many times and until i see the specific proof i mentioned, it's not likely my opinion will change on the subject of eternity's multiversality.

leonidas
argh tried editing but stupid time limit.... anyway, the idea of alternate crimson cosmoses is pretty simply explained. you just need alternate versions of the gem. there are definitely an alternate version of juggs and i seem to recall another incidence where there was an alternate cyttorak shown. as for the vishanti--marvel officially recognized alternate versions of them on earth 791218. that's just one, and doesn't take into account alternate versions of the eye of agamotto that the plethora of dr strange alternates wear. they even reference all alternates as ORIGINATING from "earths". you also mentioned chaos and order but seemed to imply they don't represent order/chaos in our universe, but we've seen them shift and alter sizes relative to each other BASED on events transpiring within our universe. seems to be a pretty clear implication to me.....

re the microverse--i'm still not sure what the fact that all the alternates (which would have existed in any alternate version of 616.....) getting merged into one by karza is supposed to show. there were certainly alternate versions of bug out there. maybe they're gone now (not sure, but certainly one was part of the gotg...) but regardless, there WERE alternate microverses, like there are alternates of all dimensions associated with the 616 and eternity. conincedence? not at all imo.

maybe eternity doesn't encompass all those places, but all those other dimensions certainly exist (and the entities that populate them) where an alternate earth exists and they seem to almost always come hand-in-hand. to me that most certainly implies a relationship between all the realms of a multiversal nature, whether you believe eternity serves as the representative or not.

Epicurus
Originally posted by operator616
So while i can understand why you see the alt. Eternities being aspects of Eternity's totality in the same sense that CK is an aspect of Oblivion, it contradicts things when we look at the bigger picture.

It really doesn't though. Considering that 616 too is technically only an aspect of the true Eternity according to my theory, one aspect of the true Oblivion being the antithesis of an aspect of the true Eternity actually makes things even clearer. Heck, it further adds substance to my belief that Abraxas too was an aspect/incarnation of Oblivion like Mikaboshi.

Epicurus
Originally posted by leonidas
cool, and you're entitled to believe what you'd like of course. but i didn't mean eternity is a multiverse in a metaphorical sense--i mean it in a wholly literal sense. and that every eternity is ALSO a multiverse unto itself.
Multiverse composed of associated realms like the Negative Zone and the Hell-Lords' domains, right?

In which case, that's a metaphorical multiverse. The multiverse I am talking about is the more popular, infinite parallel universes sort of deal which is popular in comics and fiction in general. Which is what the real Eternity represents imo, and the various designated realities(616, 4280, 88194, 1610, 93060 etc) are represented by miniscule fractions of Eternity's essence, in other words, the various universal Eternities are mere aspects of the real Eternity(which should be called Multi-Eternity based on the on-panel evidence available at hand).

leonidas
thumb up

not sure how you're using the term metaphorical though. i do see where you're coming from however, and, like mrm and opr, you could very well be right.

go back and look through early posts--i've never said MINE is the correct way to view this, only one POSSIBLE way. i've said that to mrm in countless debates. the issue i have is never with the fact that others may have equally sound explanations, but rather the fact that someone says the way i see things is IMPOSSIBLE. anyway, the discussion, while interesting, is growing a bit old. maybe i'll try and throw together one coherent post that more fully outlines why i think the way i do using all the scans i have to support the idea. feels like i've done that many times over the years, but, if i'm bored maybe i'll do it one more time.

Epicurus
Originally posted by leonidas
thumb up

not sure how you're using the term metaphorical though. i do see where you're coming from however, and, like mrm and opr, you could very well be right.

go back and look through early posts--i've never said MINE is the correct way to view this, only one POSSIBLE way. i've said that to mrm in countless debates. the issue i have is never with the fact that others may have equally sound explanations, but rather the fact that someone says the way i see things is IMPOSSIBLE. anyway, the discussion, while interesting, is growing a bit old. maybe i'll try and throw together one coherent post that more fully outlines why i think the way i do using all the scans i have to support the idea. feels like i've done that many times over the years, but, if i'm bored maybe i'll do it one more time.
I call it metaphorical because a reality tethered with pocket dimensions like like the Hell-Lords' domains isn't an actual multiverse as far as I am concerned.

Just my 2 cents.

operator616
We'll agree to disagree regarding this topic overall, but i just want to clarify this point:

Originally posted by leonidas

huh? of course they have counterparts.....


Originally posted by leonidas
as for the vishanti--marvel officially recognized alternate versions of them on earth 791218. that's just one, and doesn't take into account alternate versions of the eye of agamotto that the plethora of dr strange alternates wear. they even reference all alternates as ORIGINATING from "earths".

...No they don't.

I figured you'd use alternate versions to prove your point. But fact is, it doesn't.

The Vishanti aren't multiversal powers, but they do operate on a multiversal scale. That's why referencing a What if? to prove your point isn't gonna work.

Also, you think that writers take into account What If?s when writing a mainstream comic? Let me give you an example of how things work:

In his Excalibur run, Claremont established in the The Cross-time Caper story-line that there's only one Rachel/Phoenix. Basically, we never saw an alternate version of the character, as opposed to other characters. It was stated that the Phoenix Force exists once across all realities in Excalibur #34 letters page:

http://i.imgur.com/E847rD6.jpg?1

(Regarding Rachel, this was confirmed several times throughout the Excalibur series, and even after that).

Now, when a fan came asking that how come there's only one version of the Phoenix across the entire multiverse, when Phoenix appeared in various What if?s, guess what they answered?

http://i.imgur.com/qaWUEi5.jpg?1

"What If...is not part of the 'real' Marvel Universe"

See what i mean? At least some writers, don't take into accounts What Ifs even when establishing multiversal constants.

But that aside, there are mainstream comics (other than What Ifs), confirming the existence of Vishanti in other realities (one such example would an issue of Exiles)......but that doesn't change anything either.

Cause like i said before: The Vishanti operate on a multiversal scale. Just like LT appears in alternate realities yet we know it's the one and same LT. Although like i said: That doesn't mean that the Vishanti are multiversal powers (someone like Immortus, the one version, appears not only in certain alternate realities, but in several What Ifs, for instance).

2007 handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/NtbBUuq.jpg?1

"Agamotto ...observing events throughout the multiverse"

Hence why in Infinity War, Agamotto says that he has a duty to the multiverse:

http://i.imgur.com/cXSB3i2.jpg?1

Although the Vishanti are mostly treated as being universal deities (pretty sure ive read virtually all if not actually all comics associated with them)....that doesn't change the fact that we have certain accounts confirming that they operate on a multiversal scale.

Now if you're gonna try and say that "the multiverse" simply refers to the 616-reality and its associated dimensions and various pockets.....then that's a big NO. Because that same series -- Dr Strange Sorcerer Supreme #21 -- gives us a lovely explanation of the nature of the multiverse, and confirms that it's constituted from the various Trans-infinite alternate realities (not that we didn't know that, because i know for a fact that every time the term "multiverse" is used, it refers to the infinite alternate realities that constitute it):

http://i.imgur.com/Odc7cod.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9jBC6PA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MxARuhL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VCTb0gD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/A7ZuhOk.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas

confirms its outside the universe, it certainly does.


As for this.....come on now. Strange says that because Eternity is catatonic, the whole universe is in danger. In other words (and this really doesn't have to be spelled out): The universe which Eternity represents is in danger as a result of Eternity being catatonic.

Agamotto responded that it was Strange's universe not his (confirming that his dimension is outside Strange's universe/Eternity).....which makes sense considering it's reached through the dimensional corridor.

leonidas
k, so because of some cool discussion brought up in this awesome thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=630972&pagenumber=7

props to galan for raising the sh!t again, thumb up

i thought i'd throw in a few more tidbits here as food for thought and maybe outline again my own thoughts on this confusing topic of marvel's cosmology. but first, some of the discussion that led to this BUMP big grin

Originally posted by leonidas
as regards the rest--each eternity is a multiverse unto itself imo. i do think that each eternity is also a part of a larger version of eternity as that was mentioned in that famous ff book, but i don't think that version of eternity has ever been seen in a book outside that singular issue. it's not something we'll ever agree on as we can both use the exact same scans to support why we think we're right, nor is this the place to really carry the discussion. the marvel cosmology thread in the comics section has already addressed all of this in far more depth anyway. i left off that discussion because it was never gonna be resolved either.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t566750.html


basically this entire conversation is off topic, and not really irrelevant to the thread.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Then this isn't Marvel comics, and therefore can't be argued with.

This is why I label that "Eternity" you refer to as "Leo's" Eternity.

So, this single ambiguous reference trumps everything else, before and after?

I disagree ... and it's a "pocket," not an "ENTIRE" universe like in the Dr Strange scan.

And I still disagree.

On top of that, whatever's going on there isn't natural. Like a "tumor."

But, if you do persist on pushing this idea,
I'll return with 10-20 scans on panel and bios
where the Negative Zone is outside 616 in it's own standalone universe. This is a Negative Zone fact since its inception.

Let me know.

Heck, the Negative Zone is permeated with anti-matter, no freakin way 616 wants anything to do with that.

Cool, I just proved that to be a fallacy, but as you wish.

The Eternity in the Dr Strange scan didn't care about the 616 reality dying,
and also called it an infinitesimal part of itself.

But again, as you wish.

Not in Marvel comics, but as you wish.

I completely disagree.

I can and have proven the facts many times, but right now, from the replies, I see it as pointless.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, like i said, you're not changing my mind and i'm not changing yours. thumb up

i am LEGIT curious about one thing in particular you said though:





what are you saying? 616 eternity DOESN'T embody all of time in the universe....? that goes against, well, pretty much everything ever written about eternity.... confused

and because i'm just hanging out and watching the olympics today:

let's say we look at a what if where parker isn't bit by a spider but instead becomes one of the ff. we both agree that's an alternate earth, and it's conceptual entities are all alternate versions as well, including eternity. least i think we agree on that..... but then that parker goes on to discover the negative zone, and needs the help of that planet's thor to stop that annihilus. now all of a sudden we have an alternate nine worlds, and an alternate negative zone.

now, even if you don't think the nine worlds and the negative zone are actually part of that alternate eternity, it's still clear there is some sort of synergistic relationship between eternity and all these other worlds. i mean clearly there would also be an alternate dr strange (with an alternate eye) and an alternate dark dimension, an alternate jugg's so an alternate realm of cyttorak. all of these things stem from an alternate eternity. so, because of the creation of this alternate eternity, we suddenly have an alternate collection of realms (nine worlds)/dimensions (dark dimension)/universes (negative zone). and what do all of these alternates, together, comprise? (say it with me...) an alternate multiverse. agree or no?



nah, you haven't. no one has, or can, because that ff version has only been specifically named that singular time.





Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, the one that then elaborated and concluded it was a MULTIVERSE instead. beyond question to me? Indeed. thumb up

Cool, it doesn't change anything, I agree,
especially the fact that the Beyonder scene in no way resembles the Carey explanation.

I don't care about Lucifer tbh,
it's just that certain trolls in here were lowballing and trollin Marvel so I wanted to sting em,
so I found Mike Carey's personal input on the Lucifer creation scene, and what a "multiverse" is to him.

laughing out loud ... kinda true.

Originally posted by leonidas
elaborated on and concluded? where did that happent? and you never answered my questions from my earlier post... sad

leonidas
ok, so, i've said it a million times, but terminology in comics is MEANINGLESS. saying eternity represents a UNIVERSE is equally meaningless. marvel may have an "official" definition, but that by no means implies all writers KNOW that definition, or adhere to it. here is an oft-debated scan:

http://static7.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/123441/3140518-24.jpg

imo, this is simple--it implies our "universe" is comprised of....many layers. meaning that there are different dimensions to our universe. in effect, our universe is a multi-verse.

again, an oft-debated scan:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/73712/1917665-eternityalluniverses.jpg

whole universe inside eternity. some will claim this is the legendary multi-eternity of FF fame:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/134418/2718226-530048_multieternity16doft6_super.jpg

some will claim that 616 eternity IS multi-eternity! confused

my thoughts on the issue have always remained the same: 616 eternity is a "multiverse" unto itself. that term is misleading though. by "multiverse" i mean that 616 is comprised of more than just earth's little universe. it has other universes/dimensions/realities "associated" with it. 616 eternity does NOT embody parallel earths of course--those earths are included within ALTERNATE eternities (the number of which are infinite). but each of those parallel earths comes with its own set of alternate universes/dimensions/realities that are spawned as a direct result of an alternate earth.

for example--an alternate earth necessitates alternate asgards, dark dimensions, negative zones, etc....

in effect, that means that whenever an alternate earth pops up, it is associated with.....an ALTERNATE MULTIVERSE.

now, afaik, there is nothing that shows the nine worlds (of which asgard is one) is or is NOT a part of eternity. i think this scan IMPLIES that fact though:

http://imgur.com/a/CEFLV

that's thor narrating, and taking us up the ladder. to me, when he talks about eternity representing the "UNIVERSE ENTIRE" it would be silly to think he was EXCLUDING himself and his asgardian people from that description... so, to me, that is circumstantial proof that asgard and the nine worlds ARE included as part of ETERNITY.

and he didn't say UNIVERSE and mean MULTIVERSE, because he clearly mentions multiverse when talking about the LT.

so, yes, i think there is PLENTY of evidence to suggest that ETERNITY (616 and other individual aspects) ARE in fact multiverses unto themselves. the TERM multiverse may be a poor choice though because of the connotations it carries--a LOCALIZED MULTIVERSE? has other universes ASSOCIATED with it?? i dunno exactly what the best way to describe it is. i just know there is plenty of proof to suggest that 616 eternity represents more than JUST earth's little universe. smile

leonidas
now, something new. ima quote my man basilisk here because he sums up some of my own thoughts nicely AND raised another issue i wanted to bring up, and a bit of the discussion that follows:

Originally posted by basilisk
Personally I don't see the IG as 'omniversal' as such, just multiversal purely in the sense that it operates within 616 and its associated universes, dimensions and realities. Just as say an earth 7598777 IG operates within its versions of the universe, the Dark Dimension, Asgard, and so on, but not into 616. And certainly not into even more distant mega/omniverses like say DC or the equivalent of WF Mxy's 'real world'.

The whole time travel thing is a mess that started out with a mechanism of allowing writers freedom to have stories set in the future without having to worry about later continuity, and to block paradoxes. It works for that. It doesn't tell us anything about the cosmology and structure of space-time in the Marvel Universe.

Does a universe such as 616 have its own infinite series of possible alternate futures branching off from it, alongside but entirely separate from say 8272's own infinite series of alternate futures? As in mathematics where you can have an infinite series within an infinite series? Possibly, because a universe where Wolverine was killed at birth can't lead to a future where Wolverine grew up as he did in 616. It's quite possible the IG only grants access to the 616 series of infinite futures - so yes, the IG can give you access to "a million tomorrows" without necessarily influencing beyond the scope of 616. In that sense Thanos's words might well be true without him grasping the full truth.

Originally posted by Mr Master
If it only operates in 616, then its universal since the 616 Reality is a SINGLE Universe.

Not a Multiverse in any sense of the word.

Dark Dimension/Asgard and so on
are Pocket-Realms/realities located OUTSIDE 616,
but withIN the Multiverse that houses the infinite Alternate/Parallel UniverseS.

Mxy only destroyed DC in WF. Nothing more.

The 616 IG's power was devastating Reality across all creation,
it even surpassed the Omniverse and bashed its way into the Beyond Realm,
which is located beyond the end of the Marvel Omniverse.

I'm not saying it's the same thing as what Mxy did,
I'm saying none of them have affected other OmniverseS.

Actually, I'm not sure what's your point here friend.

But in Marvel Comics,
any Reality representing a different point in time than the Present,
is located in a separate Parallel Universe outside 616.

The Present ... as in 2012 ... (616)

Any other time before or after (Alternate Dimension/Universe) outside 616.

now, this bit about time, and any time before or after the present is "outside" 616 is not correct. or rather, it is not ALWAYS correct at least.

in the SPIDERVERSE arc, it is stated definitively that the 2099 "universe" (formerly universe 928) IS the 616 universe, only decades in the future:

here we see miguel (spidey 2099) returned to the 616 universe, jsut along a different point in time:

http://imgur.com/a/R4FyS

and here is editorial confirmation of the fact that the 2099 universe IS the 616 universe, just a future version:

http://imgur.com/a/nsDnG

so, no, not all futures are alternate futures. which makes sense. if every facet of the past and the future were alternates, that would mean eternity (the embodiment of ALL of time in a "universe" would only represent....the present? confused because if he also represented the PAST and the FUTURE (which would obviously include ALL of time) then he'd represent...alternates of himself?? a clear paradox.

but paradox averted since we now know a "future" CAN be the same reality as a "present".

thumb up

leonidas
now, just to throw some other things out there (monkeywrenches in the works) that may stir up discussion and throw into question ANY attempt at a "THEORY OF EVERYTHING" in marvel:

here we have the CELESTIALS being shown as responsible for the creation of the MULTIVERSE:

http://imgur.com/a/KAWuU

http://imgur.com/a/LlOLj

beyond that, we see in the SPIDERVERSE, that it is the MASTER WEAVER who pulls at the great web and controls the way the multiverse unfolds. here we see him actually pluck an entire universe out of harm's way, removing it from the greater multiverse proper and placing it within it's own pocket reality:

https://retconpunchdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/rebellion.jpg

so, the celestials created the web? the big bang that created eternity created the celestials? the master weaver wove eternity into existence??

lol

as you can see, marvel is FAR from an orderly "creation", and getting hung up on terminology and speaking in terms of absolutes, is the surest way of being wrong. lol

feel free to comment on anything i've brought up, safe in the knowledge that i am not claiming to be right with what i've said. i've simply tried to find the simplest, most straight-forward way to explain the BULK of on panel evidence that is often used to explain the the nature of marvel's cosmology. to me, if you have to connect a whole bunch of different dots from issues that are often decades apart to explain a possible point.....well, there should be an easier way.

i invite all discussion. smile

Astner
Originally posted by leonidas
here we have the CELESTIALS being shown as responsible for the creation of the MULTIVERSE:

http://imgur.com/a/KAWuU

I thought Kang created the multiverse with his time travel shenanigans.

http://i.imgur.com/0JQ8ihdm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/MfAK4vvm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/W9fUn4sm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/9VJy9kKm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/65tYAYSm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/656Zna2m.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/dgcGqTNm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/nqkX0Vzm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/NCDMJmbm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/S2Ql0HEm.jpg

Galan007
Originally posted by leonidas
k, so because of some cool discussion brought up in this awesome thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=630972&pagenumber=7

props to galan for raising the sh!t again, thumb up Glad I could help. evillaugh

Originally posted by leonidas
my thoughts on the issue have always remained the same: 616 eternity is a "multiverse" unto itself. that term is misleading though. by "multiverse" i mean that 616 is comprised of more than just earth's little universe. it has other universes/dimensions/realities "associated" with it. 616 eternity does NOT embody parallel earths of course--those earths are included within ALTERNATE eternities (the number of which are infinite). but each of those parallel earths comes with its own set of alternate universes/dimensions/realities that are spawned as a direct result of an alternate earth. There is also this scene, in which Dormammu states that Eternity is the most powerful entity in all the multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/Z129it6.jpg

Then Dormammu states that he and Umar can use Eternity's power to reshape the universe:
http://i.imgur.com/tOjZQCT.jpg

Then Dormammu merges with Eternity, and, to paraphrase, states that he is comprised of numerous dimensionS and universeS that are constantly being born and collapsing... And that is just a fraction of Eternity's totality:
http://i.imgur.com/GD3I0JN.jpg

...But then there are several other comics that describe Eternity solely as a universal entity(*see pretty much anything Starlin has written, for example*) So who the f*ck knows..? srug


It's hysterical when people act like Marvel cosmology isn't as big of a mess as DC's, lol.

Originally posted by Astner
I thought Kang created the multiverse with his time travel shenanigans. I thought Sise-Neg created Marvel... No wait, I thought Reed and the Alien Entity created Marvel... Etc. laughing out loud

As mentioned above: Marvel cosmology is a giant clusterf*ck. thumb up

leonidas
Originally posted by Astner
I thought Kang created the multiverse with his time travel shenanigans.

http://i.imgur.com/0JQ8ihdm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/MfAK4vvm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/W9fUn4sm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/9VJy9kKm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/65tYAYSm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/656Zna2m.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/dgcGqTNm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/nqkX0Vzm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/NCDMJmbm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/S2Ql0HEm.jpg

meh, i think this only shows that the kangs ADDED to an already existing multiverse. even she said each kang preferred their own paradigm. there would already have existed several universes with different kangs who traveled across the multiverse and added more earths by splintering timelines.

least that would be my interpretation. /shrug

Astner
I'm with Galan here. It's presented like a bunch of isolated continuities that's treated like a single continuity without addressing the plot holes that appear when you force them together.

leonidas
Originally posted by Galan007
Glad I could help. evillaugh

There is also this scene, in which Dormammu states that Eternity is the most powerful entity in all the multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/Z129it6.jpg

Then Dormammu states that he and Umar can use Eternity's power to reshape the universe:
http://i.imgur.com/tOjZQCT.jpg

Then Dormammu merges with Eternity, and, to paraphrase, states that he is comprised of numerous dimensionS and universeS that are constantly being born and collapsing... And that is just a fraction of Eternity's totality:
http://i.imgur.com/GD3I0JN.jpg

...But then there are several other comics that describe Eternity solely as a universal entity(*see pretty much anything Starlin has written, for example*) So who the f*ck knows..? srug

lol that arc was fukin hilarious. umar getting it on with hulk was brilliant.... even that discussion you posted where she calls him an imbecile is good stuff.

of course, playing devil's advocate, the other side would say that was obviously the mutliversal form of eternity.

then i say this was the same eternity dormmy faced years ago and that was WAYYYY before there was ever even the THOUGHT of a multiversal eternity.

then they say, well, yeah, universal and multiversal forms of eternity share the same consciousness so clearly multi-eternity would know and remember dormmamu....

ugh. laughing out loud



absolutely. i think the best w can do is try and find the most CONSISTENT form of cosmology that marvel applies.

looking back at this thread though, i can say i learned a bunch of stuff, and i think the discussion stayed pretty civil.

mrm sort of came around to the idea that eternity IS a form of multiverse (even if it's just a separate universal eternity and associated pocket realms), and i think opr also came to that same conclusion. between you and opr you definitively proved universes can indeed exist within universes and the "spheres within spheres" model is completely supportable.

i've since come around to the idea that the microverse would likely survive the destruction of 616 eternity, though i'm still not 100% sure of that....

it's hard to believe really, that in marvel there hasn't been any stories that really deal with the relationship between say, asgard and eternity, or even, specifically, the exact nature of 616--it's limits and just what it makes up.

i think above all, it's that 616 definition that really mucks things up.

to change things up a bit, and maybe get some new discussion going (and you invisible lurkers out there--yeah you, i'm talking to you!) feel free to join in.

i'd like to explore the meaning of 616. a couple questions to get things started:

(1) what comprises the "616" iyo?

and in a somewhat related question (2) if 616 eternity were destroyed, what "associated" dimensions do you think would be left behind? for example, if 616 eternity died, would the 616 nine worlds be left behind?

to my mind, they def would get taken out WITH eternity (proving further the 'multiversal' nature of eternity). what about mephisto's realm? would it go too? i'd say yeah, mephisto would be f'd too....

what other realms do you closely associate with eternity's make up? which realms WOULD survive (not counting of course any alternate versions of any relam....)?

Mr Master
Damn Leo, it's like yur having a discussion with a make-believe me. laughing out loud
I didn't even know my name was splattered across this new page.

Cute, but I'm not in the mood.
Originally posted by leonidas

in the SPIDERVERSE arc,

it is stated definitively that the 2099 "universe" (formerly universe 928) IS the 616 universe,

only decades in the future:

here we see miguel (spidey 2099) returned to the 616 universe, jsut along a different point in time:

so, no, not all futures are alternate futures.

but paradox averted since we now know a "future" CAN be the same reality as a "present".

Imo, you see it to uniformly sometimes old friend, or perhaps, too realistically.

Anywho, the moment u jump out of 616 into any point in time ... forward or backward,
u end up in an alternate universe representing whatever point in time you jumped to.

As for the Spidey joint ...

------------------------------------------

Spider-Man 2099, is from one of the countless possible futures of 616: ... (Reality-98120)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix6/earth98120spiderman.htm

------------------------------------------

But, like all potential futures of 616, ... this "future" is situated in another universe: ... (Reality-98120)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix5/earth-98120.htm

------------------------------------------

Earth-98120 is in the category listing page of Marvel's "Alternate Earths" ...

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/appalte.htm

------------------------------------------

As you can see ... Spiderman 2099's reality is located in a separate universe. thumb up

So NO, a "future" CAN'T be the same reality as the "present" ... not until time-space has reached that "future."

Then ... we find out which "future" (of the countless possible futures) is the real "future."

Galan007
Originally posted by leonidas
i'd like to explore the meaning of 616. a couple questions to get things started:

(1) what comprises the "616" iyo?

and in a somewhat related question (2) if 616 eternity were destroyed, what "associated" dimensions do you think would be left behind? for example, if 616 eternity died, would the 616 nine worlds be left behind?

to my mind, they def would get taken out WITH eternity (proving further the 'multiversal' nature of eternity). what about mephisto's realm? would it go too? i'd say yeah, mephisto would be f'd too....

what other realms do you closely associate with eternity's make up? which realms WOULD survive (not counting of course any alternate versions of any relam....)? My opinion basically mirrors yours. Eternity = a boundless universe, which is also comprised of its closely associated dimensions/realms and such(ie. Asgard, Meph's realm, Nightmare's dimension, etc. etc.) Hence its "many-layered" nature.

Then there is a "Multi-Eternity", who embodies a boundless multiverse(ie. infinite singular Eternities.)

And now we have an "Omni-Eternity", who is only viewable from outside the Marvel continuum, and evidently represents the totality of creation(ie. potentially infinite Multi-Eternities -- assuming the current Omniverse is still comprised of infinite multiverses of course.) Admittedly, though, Ewing seems to use the term 'omniverse' in the same way some writers use the term 'multiverse', so who knows..? Again, Marvel cosmology is a cluster.

Anywho, if you destroy 616 Eternity, I also believe its associated realms/dimensions would be wiped out as a corollary. I liken the prime universe to a lake, and its associated realms to divergent streams. The streams are ultimately 'fed' by the lake -- so if the lake dries up, the streams will dry up as a result. Conversely, if you only dry out one of the streams, the lake itself will be left perfectly full/intact.



All of that being said, I am also of the opinion that Eternity is meant to represent a universal embodiment, unless the writer of that particular comic/arc gives us a legitimate reason to assume we are dealing with a Multi or Omni-Eternity. Starlin, as an example, almost always writes Eternity in a universal manner -- as do quite a few other writers. I only mention this because some people like to act as though any time Eternity appears on panel, he is a bonafide multiversal being. I totally disagree with that, personally.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
Damn Leo, it's like yur having a discussion with a make-believe me. laughing out loud
I didn't even know my name was splattered across this new page.

Cute, but I'm not in the mood.

Imo, you see it to uniformly sometimes old friend, or perhaps, too realistically.

Anywho, the moment u jump out of 616 into any point in time forward or backward,
u end up in an alternate universe representing whatever point in time you jumped to.

As for your Spidey example ...

------------------------------------------

Spider-Man 2099, is from one of the countless possible futures of 616: (Reality-98120)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix6/earth98120spiderman.htm

------------------------------------------

But, like all potential futures of 616, ... this "future" is situated in another universe: (Reality-98120)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix5/earth-98120.htm

------------------------------------------

Earth-98120 is in the category listing page of Marvel's "Alternate Earths" ...

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/appalte.htm

------------------------------------------

So NO, the "future" CAN'T be the same reality as a "present" ... not until time-space has reached that "future."

Then ... we find out which "future" (of the countless possible futures) is the real "future."

ha! maybe, but i don't think i said anything too inflammatory. thumb up

anyway, yeah, that is how futures USED to be viewed i guess. but not sure how you can argue with that scan that clearly says spidey 2099 was returned, very specifically, to 616--EARTH 616 circa 2099, to be even more specific still.

it was even reaffirmed in the editorial page: "2099's future is in fact the 616."

no way to view it "overly realistically." your older marunapp links aren't enough to contradict something both stated clearly (by no less than a member of the cap britain corps, someone exceedingly familiar with the workings of the multiverse) then clarified in the editorial page.

not sure what to tell you--call it a retcon if you want? i'm just going by what it says on the pages. /shrug

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas
ha! maybe, but i don't think i said anything too inflammatory.

not sure what to tell you--call it a retcon if you want?
i'm just going by what it says on the pages. /shrug
I wasn't offended good friend, just tickled in a good way. smile

As for the discussion: It is 616, but it's what 616 would be in the year 2099. (possibly that is)
It's no different that the GOTG Year (31st century) being an alternate Eternity, representing Earth-691.
Vance Astro travelled back to 616 and met his younger self.
But I'm sure you know the GOTG timeline is another "Eternity." I you know.

You see, the only reason it's an "alternate" "future" is cause it's being visited prematurely,
that is, before it's "time" has arrived as the "present."
If a story is auto designated in a "future" timeline like Spidey-2009, like GOTG-3000+AD,
then it's auto designated in another universe.

And logically so, cause there's an entire universe dedicated to the "present" time, that's 616.

Here's a few questions of my own good friend Leo:

To better understand my point imo I'll put it this way:

1) If Spidey is on "Earth" in the year 2099, why isn't he on "Earth" in the year 2016?
In fact, the Earth in the year 2099 has gone to shit.

We know that's NOT "present" "Earth's" condition.
2) So where is the "Earth" that represents Spidey's world located, in the 616 universe?
3) Do you believe if you travel far enough (via distance) you'll reach Spidey's "Earth?"
4) Do you believe that's how it works? The universe's "time" is stretched out ...
... and if you travel in a certain direction far enough, fast enough,
you'll eventually reach either the "past" or the "future?"

---------------------

Here are the answers:

1) Because even though Spidey's "Earth" represents "present" "Earth" in a "future"
Spidey's "Earth" is a setting taking place like 80+ yearS from now, which hasn't even come into existence in real-time.
So of course any portrayals of this "future" time would be another universe representing said "future" time,
since there's a whole other universe back there representing another time, namely, the "Present." (616)
The kicker is, that they are both the exact same universe, all the "FutureS" of 616 , ARE 616,
but they have different outcomes, and this is what differentiates them.
We'll never know which one of the countless # is the true "future."

But again,
if they are visited prematurely, then you enter an alternate reality, even though it's possibly 616 in the "future."
The same principal applies if some "future" cat decides to visit the "past" and ends up in 616 the "present,"
this cat came from an alternate world.

2) No where.
Because the "Earth" with mainstream Spidey, Avengers, X-Men, etc is occupying that space right now.

3) That's impossible, so I hoping no one does.

4) In Marvel, it doesn't. Impossible actually imo. If anyone believes otherwise, they'll have to prove it.

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
I wasn't offended good friend, just tickled in a good way. smile

thumb up



i get that, and know that the gotg future is indeed a different universe. thumb up



this one doesn't make sense. he's not in 2016 earth because...he's in the future? i think the issue is with your definition vs my definition of what constitutes 616. i'll elaborate in a bit.



it's in the future.... or in the past if you're talking about 616 spidey.



no, it's not a place you can walk or fly to. you'd need something or someone that can time travel, or access different points along a timeline (as cap britain spidey could do).



yes, i think that is exactly how it works. we know that eternity represents/embodies TIME in his actuality (and sometimes ALL of reality depending on who is writing i guess). i could post scans to support that but i think you know that already.

now this brings us to the idea of what that means--well, if he represents ALL time in a universe, that means past present AND future. it doesn't make sense imo to say he represents....just the present? if i went back 1 second in time, your thought is i am now in a different universe that is no longer 616? or if i go ahead 1 second, i'm again in an alternate universe? that would limit eternity to existing AS the present, and nothing more. so why/how does he embody "ALL" of time? (infinity is supposed to embody all of space...)

way i see it is there IS a definite past AND future in all universes. we don't know (or, up until now, haven't been privy to) what the TRUE future of the universe is. but a true future must exist. maybe in the current civil war arc ulysses is privy to the "true" future path of time? we see people able to read futures all the time. sometimes the futures are right, other times its described as possible.

in any event, 2099 is apparently viewed differently by marvel--with that issue (at least pre sw) it seems marvel has signed off on the fact that 2099 IS the "Real" future, hence, the very specific designation of 2099 AS 616. it wasn't a mistake, nor was it random as it was further elaborated on in the editorial page.

i see 616 eternity differently than you do. since i believe he represents the past present and future, then...there must be a TRUE future that he represents. it seems marvel has designated the 2099 AS that true future (unlike, say, the gotg future). again, maybe that isn't the way it USED to be, but....those scans either have to be dismissed out of hand or taken at fact value. i think the latter is fine because it fits with my understanding of what eternity 616 represents.

leonidas

leonidas
@anyone really--how many times has 616 (the actual term) been used, and used what does it generally describe in comics? i know the cap brit corps used it with some frequency, but it's been used in other books as well. anyone have any in-book definition of the 616?

Astner
I'm not sure whether or not these are in-comic references, references found in question and answer-sections, or references from handbook excerpts; but here's a list of references.

operator616
Originally posted by leonidas
@anyone really--how many times has 616 (the actual term) been used, and used what does it generally describe in comics? i know the cap brit corps used it with some frequency, but it's been used in other books as well. anyone have any in-book definition of the 616?

It used to be referenced on a regular basis in Captain Britain related books and Exiles from what I remember. FF and X-Men titles referenced it on a few occasions but not as frequently. Current Marvel uses it in a bigger capacity and across a bigger array of titles from what I can tell.

And it was used to refer to the "present" mainstream marvel reality if that's what you're asking. It was never used in the same context as your spidey instance, at least not from what I remember. Although I always thought that alternate futures weren't necessarily alternate realities; it all depends on the writer's intentions and several instances in comics support this stance (we debated this before).

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
Although I always thought that alternate futures weren't necessarily alternate realities; it all depends on the writer's intentions and several instances in comics support this stance (we debated this before).

lol we did? i don't remember that discussion at all....i agree though--i think 616 has sort of taken on a bigger meaning as well.

operator616
Originally posted by leonidas
lol we did? i don't remember that discussion at all....i agree though--i think 616 has sort of taken on a bigger meaning as well.

We as in the KMC community, not you and I. Still, feel free to read the thread if you're interested:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=586243&pagenumber=3

I provided two instances where futures don't equate to alternate realities (and there are more; you just provided proof yourself). Make no mistake though, in most cases they are, but on the other hand we also have a few instances where they're not treated as such. That's why I base my opinion on writer's intention based on the context of the story to determine in which way it is being used. That's also the main reason why I see Sise Neg universal - because based on the context of the story, the writer treated the history of the universe as one single timeline, imo.

basilisk
Originally posted by operator616
It used to be referenced on a regular basis in Captain Britain related books and Exiles from what I remember. FF and X-Men titles referenced it on a few occasions but not as frequently. Current Marvel uses it in a bigger capacity and across a bigger array of titles from what I can tell.

And it was used to refer to the "present" mainstream marvel reality if that's what you're asking. It was never used in the same context as your spidey instance, at least not from what I remember. Although I always thought that alternate futures weren't necessarily alternate realities; it all depends on the writer's intentions and several instances in comics support this stance (we debated this before).

Also it's interesting to note occasionally the mainstream MU has been referred to as the "Prime Reality", the one from which all others came. In the Avengers Proctor arc it was emphasized quite a lot - alternate realities and characters were just "echoes" of the Prime versions. I guess it sounds better than having the characters talking about 616.

leonidas
Originally posted by basilisk
Also it's interesting to note occasionally the mainstream MU has been referred to as the "Prime Reality", the one from which all others came. In the Avengers Proctor arc it was emphasized quite a lot - alternate realities and characters were just "echoes" of the Prime versions. I guess it sounds better than having the characters talking about 616.

i guess the question is what constitutes this 'prime reality'? same question different term i guess. i mean we've seen the 616 'universe' referred to as a reality, an actuality, and continuum.... it's like marvel is doing everything in its power to intentionally make it impossible to sort out. lol

Galan007
Originally posted by leonidas
i mean we've seen the 616 'universe' referred to as a reality, an actuality, and continuum.... I've always been of the impression that these terms can be used interchangeably. confused

leonidas
that's sort of what i'm saying--sticking with terminology is a huge mistake. continuum is something different though and would SEEM to imply more than a single universe.... 616 as a continuum feels better and closer to what marvel 616 seems to have come to mean. imo.

Astner
Spacetime-continuum is used interchangeably with universe.

operator616
Originally posted by leonidas
that's sort of what i'm saying--sticking with terminology is a huge mistake. continuum is something different though and would SEEM to imply more than a single universe.... 616 as a continuum feels better and closer to what marvel 616 seems to have come to mean. imo.

It really isn't though. And like its synonyms (reality, universe, actuality) it depends on the context in which it is being used.
Marvel comics have stated that their multiverse is made up of infinite number of continuums (realities). In the early DC issues it was established that the parallel realities of the multiverse occupy the same space continuum but different time continuum.

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
It really isn't though. And like its synonyms (reality, universe, actuality) it depends on the context in which it is being used.
Marvel comics have stated that their multiverse is made up of infinite number of continuums (realities). In the early DC issues it was established that the parallel realities of the multiverse occupy the same space continuum but different time continuum.

your own statement would seem to indicate that the terminology is fluid. if the term is independent on context and interpretation, it by definition allows for DIFFERENT interpretations and so becomes problematic.

but i thought all the infinite earths simple vibrated at different frequencies in dc... confused

Astner
Originally posted by leonidas
your own statement would seem to indicate that the terminology is fluid. if the term is independent on context and interpretation, it by definition allows for DIFFERENT interpretations and so becomes problematic.
I think the problem is that the editors allow contradictory liberties with concepts that are thought of as abstract, and the writers don't seem to have a shared grasp of what the multiverse is supposed to be.

operator616
Originally posted by leonidas
your own statement would seem to indicate that the terminology is fluid. if the term is independent on context and interpretation, it by definition allows for DIFFERENT interpretations and so becomes problematic.



Of course it does, hence my response that the term "continuum" could refer to a single universe as well as multiple/infinite. You said that "continuum" is different from the other terms and seems to imply more than one universe while in fact it can and has been used to refer to a single universe (as well as many, in other cases). It's no different than any of the other terms like universe/reality/actuality. That was my point.

Originally posted by leonidas
but i thought all the infinite earths simple vibrated at different frequencies in dc... confused

The Earths occupy the same space but vibrate at a different frequency. Vibrating on a different frequency puts them on a different time continuum. Hence why characters like GL and Flash were able to simply vibrate at a different frequency, vibrating their molecules faster, and end up in an alternate universe.

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
Of course it does, hence my response that the term "continuum" could refer to a single universe as well as multiple/infinite. You said that "continuum" is different from the other terms and seems to imply more than one universe while in fact it can and has been used to refer to a single universe (as well as many, in other cases). It's no different than any of the other terms like universe/reality/actuality. That was my point.

lol

so i say the terminology is confusing and fluid and allows for different interpretations, and you agree. i say that continuum seems different to me because it would appear to imply many instead of just a single universe, and you say in some cases it DOES imply many?? blink

well, guess we can call that debate closed. thumb up

tbf, i never really looked at the term in conjunction with spacetime as astner pointed out. in that context, i agree with him (and you i think....) that it is most often used to connote a singular universe.





hmm, that is something i didn't know. i thought they were in different spaces, not times....

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