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Movie versions.

1. Without shield

2. With shield

Has Cap ever caught a bullet?

Has Ozy punched at the speed of a bullet.

Is Cap the "Smartest Man in the World"?

Wait when did movie Cap punch as fast as a bullet?

is this a battle of intellectual prowess.

when did I say he punched as fast as a bullet? neither has so whether they can catch one is irrelevant since neither is using a gun. they can all react to each other.

all fights are to a point. if you are much smarter than your opponent then you can use it to your advantage. happens all the time



well if one is fast enough to catch a bullet and the other can't then it's reasonable to say that the one who can is faster right?

so Ozy is faster and has the smarts to use it to his advantage

Originally posted by juggerman
all fights are to a point. if you are much smarter than your opponent then you can use it to your advantage. happens all the time.

well if one is fast enough to catch a bullet and the other can't then it's reasonable to say that the one who can is faster right?

so Ozy is faster and has the smarts to use it to his advantage

The advantage is minimal at best none existent at worst. This is not a battle between chimps and human. Saying he wins cos he's smarter without saying how is just baseless conjecture. You don't need to be a super genius to be a good fighter. And being one certainly doesn't automatically make you a better fighter. You'd do much better to point out his skills in martial arts since that's something that actually relevant.

Faster at what? One can be faster at many different things and not as fast in other areas. He has better reflexes, which is a plus, but not an overwhelming advantage unless Cap have some sort of super speed that needs to be nullified. Doesn't make him hit faster.

what about a fight between professional boxers/fighters? we see cases all the time where one fighter is fighting smarter than the other and wins. Ali vs Foreman comes to mind. being smarter can have a very distinct advantage no matter how hard you try to down play it with "animal vs human" theories



Ozy has shown much faster speed than Cap at fighting and reflexes which gives him another advantage. he also has much better fighting skills. Cap def holds the advantage in the strength department but i dont think it will be enough to take Ozy for the majority.

id like to know who you think would win

Ozy beats the crap out of him.

Cap, Ozy's fight was staged

Ozy tosses cap around like he did the comedian.

Staged? NightOwl II and Rorschach were superhuman pros, throw in Silk Spectre II with a gun and it's a stomp.

Ozy handles Cap better than Loki did, and only because Loki wanted Cap to yield.

Cap was described by Black Widow as being "All over the place". And that against Ozy means dead or KO.

Originally posted by juggerman
what about a fight between professional boxers/fighters? we see cases all the time where one fighter is fighting smarter than the other and wins. Ali vs Foreman comes to mind. being smarter can have a very distinct advantage no matter how hard you try to down play it with "animal vs human" theories



Ozy has shown much faster speed than Cap at fighting and reflexes which gives him another advantage. he also has much better fighting skills. Cap def holds the advantage in the strength department but i dont think it will be enough to take Ozy for the majority.

id like to know who you think would win

It doesn't take a super genius to fight smarter. Fighting smarts is not the same as making intricate plans to save the world. Cap is a smart fighter too. And Ozy hasn't even needed to fight smarter since he's just so much more skilled, we never get a demonstration of it, aside from feigning I guess.

I do think he's faster, but not by as much as he demonstrated against night owl and co, they are not superhuman to the level of Cap. More skilled also. Cap have better soak, and strength, so he's not just gonna casually block his blows. Without shield I give it to Ozy. With shield idk. Havn't watched Cap's fights in a while. Prolly Ozy also.

Captain America wins.

Ozymandias has the reaction-time advantage, but Captain America has strength and durability, and above all else, heart.

Add the shield and this becomes a stomp.

And Ozy as smart as he is won't expect Cap to be able to ricochet his shield with the lethal accuracy that he has.

Originally posted by KingD19
And Ozy as smart as he is won't expect Cap to be able to ricochet his shield with the lethal accuracy that he has.

When did Cap ricochet a bullet on screen with accuracy back at his opponent?

Isn't that just a videogame feat?

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Ozy tosses cap around like he did the comedian. There first go around the Comedian beat him badly, it was only after that that Ozy trained and got better plus he knew exactly how the Comedian was going to fight cause he did the samething everytime according to Oz.

At least that's how it was in the comics, and I thought it was also stated in the movies as well.

Cap is >>>>>>>>> Comedian.

His on-screen fight skills greatly say no.

They never said anything about a previous fight between the two in the film.

And Cap has no real fighting ability besides what he has picked up on his own during WWII. Comedian had much more training and skill than Captain America and still was completely destroyed by Ozy

I say Cap.

A lot stronger. Not as fast reflexes but still fast enough. Agile. And people who think Cap never got any good combat training are kidding themselves. He's a soldier. They don't have to show everything. Being a good fighter is an intregal part of being Cap, and I've heard there will be flash backs in the next movie.

Add in the shield and I think Cap takes this comfortably. He can block all Ozy's punches with his shield, and do some serious damage hitting him with it (especially considering his far greater strength).

Originally posted by NemeBro
Captain America wins.

Ozymandias has the reaction-time advantage, but Captain America has strength and durability, and above all else, heart.

Add the shield and this becomes a stomp.
Nah.

CA's strength advantage and great durability won't matter when he won't be able to land a single blow on Ozy.

Ozy's fight with NO and Rors showed he can casually defend against two very capable opponents while not trying to overly harm them and while having a mostly one-way conversation. Fully focused and trying to kill, he wears cap down via blow after blow. It'll be like his fight with Comedian, just a lot longer.

His homosexual-esque suit also apparently adds a high degree of protection, should CA manage to get a hit in.

People acting like Cap is not a good fighter should rewatch the Avengers. He was doing really well battling and fighting the horde of Aliens.

He had more than enough reflexes to block their incoming fire.

when has he shown any actual fighting ability? if i was way stronger/faster than my opponents id stomp too but that doesnt mean i have any skill. Superman suffered from this problem for years

Originally posted by Newjak
People acting like Cap is not a good fighter should rewatch the Avengers. He was doing really well battling and fighting the horde of Aliens.

He had more than enough reflexes to block their incoming fire.

No he really didn't show fighting skills even close to the level of Ozymandias in Avengers. He was shocking in his fight with Loki. And the shield blocked all the gunfire from the dim-witted aliens.

Even worse in his solo film.

People argue the strength factor. What has Cap done?
Bent a 1 or 2 inch hollow steel pipe. Jumped really far. And struck an Alien with the shield 5 mtrs back.

Ozy has insane feats of his own. He didn't have regular human strength. I will agree he isn't as strong as Cap. But the difference is overwhelmed by Ozy's vaster fighting and processing skills.

Cap lifted a full sized Harley with 3 women sitting on it. Let's say on average a healthy woman is 120lbs. Any less and you start getting towards anorexic territory. A bike back then could weigh around 550lbs, so that's 910lbs, nearly 1000lbs being extended and pressed above his head for an extended amount of time.

He also ripped off a cab door and punched a hole in the canopy of a mini-sub meant to withstand deep sea pressures. As well as knocking a soldier somewhere in the neighborhood of Ozy's kick that sent NO and Rorshcach, except Cap did it with a shield backhand.

nvm.

Originally posted by KingD19
Cap lifted a full sized Harley with 3 women sitting on it. Let's say on average a healthy woman is 120lbs. Any less and you start getting towards anorexic territory. A bike back then could weigh around 550lbs, so that's 910lbs, nearly 1000lbs being extended and pressed above his head for an extended amount of time.

He also ripped off a cab door and punched a hole in the canopy of a mini-sub meant to withstand deep sea pressures. As well as knocking a soldier somewhere in the neighborhood of Ozy's kick that sent NO and Rorshcach, except Cap did it with a shield backhand.

Dammmmmn! All I remember of Ozy was jumping through the air, blocking punches from a guy who punched through rock pillars, and the chair feat. I forgot about the bike musical feat. But then again I never said Ozy was stronger.

God Cap had terrible fight scenes in his two films. I still give Ozy the skill factor though. By a long shot.

i still highly doubt Cap would hit Ozy once.

Ozy definitely has skill. I never doubted that. Military combat training was lauded for it's martial arts effectiveness back in the day.

Originally posted by KingD19
Cap lifted a full sized Harley with 3 women sitting on it. Let's say on average a healthy woman is 120lbs. Any less and you start getting towards anorexic territory. A bike back then could weigh around 550lbs, so that's 910lbs, nearly 1000lbs being extended and pressed above his head for an extended amount of time.

He also ripped off a cab door and punched a hole in the canopy of a mini-sub meant to withstand deep sea pressures. As well as knocking a soldier somewhere in the neighborhood of Ozy's kick that sent NO and Rorshcach, except Cap did it with a shield backhand.



Not to mention he was lifting the bike and 3 women with ease and for an unknown period of time.

Oh and there was the smashing the boxing bag.

Originally posted by juggerman
i still highly doubt Cap would hit Ozy once.

Aside from catching the bullet, I don't remember this amazing combat speed displayed by Ozzy. As for his great combat skills, he was fighting 2 people neither of whom had superhuman strength or speed.



Something else people are neglecting aside from Cap's invulnerable shield, is his healing powers that were mentioned.

I think part of the problem why people don't think much of Cap's abilities is the movies just didn't do a good job of portraying his powers properly. Unlike Blade for instance.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Aside from catching the bullet, I don't remember this amazing combat speed displayed by Ozzy. As for his great combat skills, he was fighting 2 people neither of whom had superhuman strength or speed.


He also caught the thrown butcher knife by the handle at a moments notice.

I don't think CA showed fighting speed above what Nightowl and Rorschach put out, unless I'm forgetting a scene from the films?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Not to mention he was lifting the bike and 3 women with ease and for an unknown period of time.

Oh and there was the smashing the boxing bag.

Ozy has his own degree of superhuman strength too.

- He kicked Nite Owl and Rorschach and sent them flying 20'-30'.
- Grabbed Comedian (who's "built like a linebacker" ) and tossed him about 30' across the room into his dining table.
- Slammed Comedian's head through a marble countertop.
- Picked up Comedian and tossed him through plate glass (which "you'd have to step on the gas just to crack it".
- Performed a Matrix-like jump across the room to stomp on and destroy Nite Owl's laser.

I agree, Cap is stronger, but Ozy isn't far off.




Nite Owl was causing compound fractures with punches, and Rorschach has insane durability. Both of them were able to clear giant groups of thugs with considerable ease. And Ozy handled both of them like children.



If you're talking about Blonsky from Incredible Hulk, then yeah, Cap probably has it too. But it's not potent enough to be a factor in this fight.



I agree, Cap mainly just shoulder-blocked people and hit them with his shield. The fight scenes were slow and sloppy, especially his fight with Loki. I really wish we saw Cap fight like this. Now that would have been awesome

But as it stands, Ozy wins. Not as strong, but difference isn't that great, and he's clearly superior in terms of speed and skill.

Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Ozy has his own degree of superhuman strength too.

- He kicked Nite Owl and Rorschach and sent them flying 20'-30'.
- Grabbed Comedian (who's "built like a linebacker" ) and tossed him about 30' across the room into his dining table.
- Slammed Comedian's head through a marble countertop.
- Picked up Comedian and tossed him through plate glass (which "you'd have to step on the gas just to crack it".
- Performed a Matrix-like jump across the room to stomp on and destroy Nite Owl's laser.

I agree, Cap is stronger, but Ozy isn't far off.




Nite Owl was causing compound fractures with punches, and Rorschach has insane durability. Both of them were able to clear giant groups of thugs with considerable ease. And Ozy handled both of them like children.



If you're talking about Blonsky from Incredible Hulk, then yeah, Cap probably has it too. But it's not potent enough to be a factor in this fight.



I agree, Cap mainly just shoulder-blocked people and hit them with his shield. The fight scenes were slow and sloppy, especially his fight with Loki. I really wish we saw Cap fight like this. Now that would have been awesome

But as it stands, Ozy wins. Not as strong, but difference isn't that great, and he's clearly superior in terms of speed and skill.

Uhhhh...

What this guy said.



I also do not think Ozy is very far off from Cap's strength level.

The cavalry has arrived.

Where the hell you been Dadudemon?

Originally posted by the ninjak
The cavalry has arrived.

Where the hell you been Dadudemon?

All over the place. But I do stop by around here.


It is just not as fun without Borbarad, RJ, and AC posting in here.


Quanchi did bring some life back to this place, though.

Yeah Quanchi was funny. He can't handle movies though. Comics are full of loopholes. Movies are all about vision.

I play both fields.

Originally posted by dadudemon



I also do not think Ozy is very far off from Cap's strength level.

From what I remember there's no comparison in Strength.

Cap's strength feats have been listed above. What's Ozy's greatest strength feat?

Originally posted by DarkNemesis

I agree, Cap mainly just shoulder-blocked people and hit them with his shield. The fight scenes were slow and sloppy, especially his fight with Loki. I really wish we saw Cap fight like this. Now that would have been awesome



Awsome. Yes your right that's how it should have been portrayed. I've mentioned that since I first saw Cap, that the movie's biggest weakness was there was no amazing action scene of him displaying his powers.

I had serious doubts about the film when I saw the trailer, and we see him just walk into a room with a gun and start shooting away exactly like a regular soldier would.

So here's an extensive Cap feats list off the top of my head

Strength:

-Holding up the girls on the motorcycle effortlessly
-Tossing a guy some 15-20 feet up in the air while in water(That is really impressive actually)
-Bending a metal bar pretty easily
-Punching through a Mini-Submarine's window
-Managing to hold unto a mini plane's wing while it's flying
-Could easily pick up a human over his head and toss them

Agility:
Easily leaps from the tops of moving cars to other moving car tops
Jumped the from to rails in the factory. It was easily 30 feet possibly going on 60 feet my memory is a bit hazy.

Speed/Reaction feats:
-Able to temporarily keep up with a car
-Able to throw his shield with such timing he manages to use it keep a closing door open so he can chase down Red Skull
-He can see and react to a sniper in a tree that nobody else could see

And these are just from his own movie, he has some nice feats in the Avengers as well.

No one in the Watchmen Universe besides the obvious Dr. Manhattan was that physically capable nor is any of them particularly close. They are obviously superhuman but not on the same realm as Cap.

Originally posted by Newjak
So here's an extensive Cap feats list off the top of my head

Strength:

-Holding up the girls on the motorcycle effortlessly
-Tossing a guy some 15-20 feet up in the air while in water(That is really impressive actually)
-Bending a metal bar pretty easily
-Punching through a Mini-Submarine's window
-Managing to hold unto a mini plane's wing while it's flying
-Could easily pick up a human over his head and toss them

Agility:
Easily leaps from the tops of moving cars to other moving car tops
Jumped the from to rails in the factory. It was easily 30 feet possibly going on 60 feet my memory is a bit hazy.

Speed/Reaction feats:
-Able to temporarily keep up with a car
-Able to throw his shield with such timing he manages to use it keep a closing door open so he can chase down Red Skull
-He can see and react to a sniper in a tree that nobody else could see

And these are just from his own movie, he has some nice feats in the Avengers as well.

No one in the Watchmen Universe besides the obvious Dr. Manhattan was that physically capable nor is any of them particularly close. They are obviously superhuman but not on the same realm as Cap.




Also he mentioned he has regeneration and enhanced healing powers. So add that to his strength and you can imagine the amount of punishment he must be able to take.

Oh and besides Dr. Manhattan and Ozzy I don't think anyone was "super" human in Watchmen. More like peak physical humans.

When did Cap mention he had a HF?

Originally posted by the ninjak
When did Cap mention he had a HF?

The scene where he's updet over Bucky's death and explains how he can't get drunk no matter how much he drinks.

Also makes sense since in TIH Blonsky using an imitation over the super soldier serum healed from a devastating killing blow from the Hulk (before he injected Hulk's blood and became Abom).

Originally posted by Newjak
So here's an extensive Cap feats list off the top of my head

Strength:

-Holding up the girls on the motorcycle effortlessly
-Tossing a guy some 15-20 feet up in the air while in water(That is really impressive actually)
-Bending a metal bar pretty easily
-Punching through a Mini-Submarine's window
-Managing to hold unto a mini plane's wing while it's flying
-Could easily pick up a human over his head and toss them

See above, I named quite a few of Ozy's strength feats too. Actually, I'll re-post them:



I don't see how Ozy's strength feats aren't in the same ballpark as Cap's.



Ozy's got hops too. He jumped about what looks like 30-40 feet to stomp on Nite Owl's laser. Not to mention he jumped like 10 feet in the air to avoid Rorschach's initial attack.



I'm afraid those don't really compare with Ozy's bullet catch as well as the bogus assassination scene, where he was moving at practically normal speeds while everyone else was virtually standing still.



I disagree. You're right about the other street-level Watchmen, but Ozy has comparable strength feats, and he has better speed, reaction, and agility feats.

Originally posted by DarkNemesis
See above, I named quite a few of Ozy's strength feats too. Actually, I'll re-post them:



I don't see how Ozy's strength feats aren't in the same ballpark as Cap's.



Ozy's got hops too. He jumped about what looks like 30-40 feet to stomp on Nite Owl's laser. Not to mention he jumped like 10 feet in the air to avoid Rorschach's initial attack.



I'm afraid those don't really compare with Ozy's bullet catch as well as the bogus assassination scene, where he was moving at practically normal speeds while everyone else was virtually standing still.



I disagree. You're right about the other street-level Watchmen, but Ozy has comparable strength feats, and he has better speed, reaction, and agility feats. I'd have to watch the fight scenes again but just from stylistic point they aren't as impressive.

Being able to toss a human being from the water 15-20 feet up in the air without any ground for leverage is hell of a lot more impressive than anything Ozy did.

I put those reflex accuracy sense type stuff to go ahead and show he isn't slow and he can do incredible things with his senses.

And from memory I don't remember Ozzy doing anytype of acrobatics that compared to Cap but once again it's been awhile since I've seen the movie so I could be wrong.

If people forgot:

kbnGA8uu8T0


@ 2:33. he tosses Rorschach a good 40-50 feet.

Ozy better fight point blank


cap stronger but not overwhelmingly...

Captain America wins. http://www.oocities.org/utopianimp/Tournament/Sprites/CaptainAmerica.gif

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Captain America wins. http://www.oocities.org/utopianimp/Tournament/Sprites/CaptainAmerica.gif

Cap wins. He works out with Thor and Hulk for warm up.

Ozy wins: he crippled a god.

Ozy wins: he fought two superhumans, at once, and didn't even try.

Ozy wins: he outsmarted every last person on the planet.

Oxy wins: he can watch over 2 dozen TV programs at once...and that's just to relax after a long day.

Ozy wins: he's wearing body armor.

Ozy wins: he is so fast he can catch bullets.

Originally posted by Newjak
Being able to toss a human being from the water 15-20 feet up in the air without any ground for leverage is hell of a lot more impressive than anything Ozy did.

Ozy picking up the 225lb Comedian and tossing him through re-inforced plate glass window comes close to that feat. Happens at 2:08 of the video below:

i3e_uWFfzeU

He literally tossed him around like a rag doll.



Yeah, Cap isn't slow, the car chase scene was pretty impressive. But most of Cap's speed and agility feats were running and jumping, not fighting. He's has much slower combat speed and reaction feats than Ozy.



I don't think he had many acrobatic feats, but he could jump extremely high and far (way beyond any normal or peak human).

Cap just doesn't have the speed and combat skill to win this IMO. I agree with Robtard's assessment of the fight: it'll be like Ozy vs. Comedian, but much more drawn out.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Ozy better fight point blank


cap stronger but not overwhelmingly...

Captain America's fist staggered and made Loki wince.

Being sprayed by bullets couldn't even slow Loki down.

Clearly Cap's fist>>Bullets.

Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Ozy picking up the 225lb Comedian and tossing him through re-inforced plate glass window comes close to that feat.

Nah it's not close. Cap didn't throw an object through glass. He punched through the glass cover of a submarine himself.

He threw a man Vertically upwards from underwater a good 20 feet.

He was lifting 3 women on a motorcycle for an undefined amount of time with the up most of ease.

So Ozy's strength feats do not come close to Cap's (and Ozy's durability feats are nil which I will get to in a sec). Cap would throw around the guys that Ozzy did with utter ease considering his feats.



Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Yeah, Cap isn't slow, the car chase scene was pretty impressive. But most of Cap's speed and agility feats were running and jumping, not fighting. He's has much slower combat speed and reaction feats than Ozy.

Cap's clearly much faster than the opponents Ozzy has fought, so it would be silly to assume he would blitz Cap the way he blitzed those none super powered opponents.

And if we're going by the "if we don't have feats we assume he can't do it" line of thought, then Ozzy has literally zero durability feats.

So chances are one good punch from Cap could take him down. And if not, then it's pretty certain a good hit from Cap's shiled would.

On the other hand Cap has taken punches from the Red Skull (who punches holes in bullet proof shields) responding "I can do this all day.." and has taken an alien laser blast to the stomach, yet got up a few seconds later to carry on fighting.

So bearing in mind that, his strength, his apparent healing abilities and of course having his shield for protection, chances are he could take a good punishment from Ozzy, whilst the reverse can not be said.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ozy wins: he crippled a god.

Not in a fight he didn't. He never went toe to toe with Dr. Manhattan. He wasn't capable of doing that.

Whilst Cap actually did go toe to toe with a God- Loki, and did stagger him, and dodged some of his hits.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ozy wins: he fought two superhumans, at once, and didn't even try.

Neither were "super" human.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ozy wins: he outsmarted every last person on the planet.

Not relevant.


Originally posted by dadudemon
Oxy wins: he can watch over 2 dozen TV programs at once...and that's just to relax after a long day.

Not relevant.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ozy wins: he's wearing body armor.

So does Cap.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ozy wins: he is so fast he can catch bullets.

Finally we have a good argument here.

Yes Ozzy is faster, but Cap is not slow.

Just like Cap is stronger, although Ozzy is hardly weak.

What I think will make the difference is durability which goes to Cap. And Cap's invulnerable shield will also help him win the fight.

i dont recall any h2h or combat speed feats that suggest Cap would land a single hit on Ozy.

Ozy would just beat Cap retarded (which would probably take a long time since Cap is super and all)

Originally posted by juggerman
i dont recall any h2h or combat speed feats that suggest Cap would land a single hit on Ozy.

Ozy would just beat Cap retarded (which would probably take a long time since Cap is super and all)

That's because your comment is true.

Cap in his films barely showed the skill and speed necessary to defeat Ozy, it's true. Cap can't display the techniques required to defeat Ozy in H2H combat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not in a fight he didn't. He never went toe to toe with Dr. Manhattan. He wasn't capable of doing that.

Ozy wins: he crippled a god. He crippled Dr. Manhattan's future vision.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whilst Cap actually did go toe to toe with a God- Loki, and did stagger him, and dodged some of his hits.

Correction: the early primitive humans thought they were gods. He is not actually a god and Dr. Manhattan could defeat Loki in an instance with a vape.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Neither were "super" human.

Both were superhuman. Go with what was seen on screen: not statements in the comics.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not relevant.

Directly relevant: unless you want to remove one of the primary strengths of the opposing character just so you can have your favorite win (of course that's what you're doing. lol!)




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not relevant.

Directly relevant: shows his ability to focus on multiple things at once is absurdly superhuman. Directly relevant to a fight.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So does Cap.

No he doesn't. He has a shield: not body armor.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Finally we have a good argument here.

They were all good arguments and all stand alone as singular instances of how he could win.

They were all perfect points that could not be debated.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes Ozzy is faster, but Cap is not slow.

That's not saying much. That's like saying I am not slow.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just like Cap is stronger, although Ozzy is hardly weak.

I cannot conclude that the Captain is stronger. I can debate both sides.

Just to give the Captain fanboys SOMETHING, I'll give them the edge in strength.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What I think will make the difference is durability which goes to Cap. And Cap's invulnerable shield will also help him win the fight.

Incorrect. Durability goes to Ozy in spades.


Captain's shield would make a difference.......if he had enough speed to even use it to his advantage.

Cap has never shown any combat knowledge other than brute strength which won't matter here considering hes not that much stronger than Ozy in the first place...

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Cap has never shown any combat knowledge other than brute strength which won't matter here considering hes not that much stronger than Ozy in the first place...

Showing and Having are 2 different things.

Anyone who thinks Captain America, who is a Super Soldier and going to be an agent of Shield in the sequel, can't fight is just kidding themselves.

Going by showings Ozy has zero durability feats.

And yes Cap is considerably stronger. The most Ozy has lifted is the weight of one human for a couple of seconds. Whilst Cap has lifted a motorcycle plus 3 women for an extended period of time with absolute ease.

The most Ozy has done is throw a person through re-inforced glass, whilst Cap has punched through it.

So Cap is stronger by a margin, but much much more durable. He can probably tank everything Ozy can dish out.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Entire Post...

Really not even worth my time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anyone who thinks Captain America, who is a Super Soldier and going to be an agent of Shield in the sequel, can't fight is just kidding themselves.


From what we've seen on film, he's has a few weeks of combat training and what appears to be passable boxing skills.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really not even worth my time.

I accept your concession.

You'd be wise not to attempt to have a meaningful 'debate' with me. Your entire argument is built upon the premise that this thread is even a legit match.

Originally posted by Robtard
From what we've seen on film, he's has a few weeks of combat training and what appears to be passable boxing skills.

Well we don't know how much time passed tbh.

And it's not like we were shown Ozy went through years of ninja training or anything. Yes his moves looked better. But that's just down to choreography.

But all I'm saying is considering:

1)the fact that Cap is a Soldier in WWII and then
2)a SHIELD agent in the 21st century and
3)the fact the Avengers naturally give charge of the team to him being the most experienced/competent soldier,
4)the fact that Nick Fury himself says "Wars are won by Soldiers" referring to Cap,
5) We see him on the boxing bag in his spare time..

Then I think we can pretty much assume he's a trained fighter.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I accept your concession.

You'd be wise not to attempt to have a meaningful 'debate' with me. Your entire argument is built upon the premise that this thread is even a legit match.

No concession.. Your argument's just not worth a rebuttal..

Giving irrelevant arguments like "he outsmarted a God, and outsmarted the world.."

So I guess Batman would get his ass whooped by Lex Luthor in combat since he's outsmarted Superman and the world on multiple occassions right??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No concession.. Your argument's just not worth a rebuttal..


Correction: you tried a rebuttal but it was so poorly formed and irrelevant that it was worthless.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Giving irrelevant arguments like "he outsmarted a God, and outsmarted the world.."

Irrelevant if you choose to ignore Ozy's abilities, obviously. Since that won't fly, you can ignore it all you want: you're definitely not getting anywhere in this conversation and you definitely are not being taken seriously.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So I guess Batman would get his ass whooped by Lex Luthor in combat since he's outsmarted Superman and the world on multiple occassions right??

This is not only a strawman argument (it misrepresents mine and then argues against it), it is a red herring (it is irrelevant and detracts from the actual points).

If you wish to actually form a proper and relevant argument, let me know.

To answer your question about whether or not Lex Luthor could defeat Superman and Batman in combat:


http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060106181024/marvel_dc/images/thumb/b/b4/Lex_Luthor_004.jpg/290px-Lex_Luthor_004.jpg

Originally posted by dadudemon
Correction: you tried a rebuttal but it was so poorly formed and irrelevant that it was worthless.



No actually if you get your head out of your ass for a second you will see that I'm addressing everyone else's points who are in the Ozzy camp, because they are making points worth addressing.

Just not going to waste my time addressing your pointless arguments. Coming out with crap like "Ozy wins because he wears body armor, and because he's really good at watching more than one TV channel" Lulz!

Not to mention your just outright making crap up like Roscharch and Nite Owl had super powers, and Cap never wore protection.

Just rewatched the Ozy vs Rosch and Night Owl fight.

I forgot just how impressive he was. He is definitely superhuman in the fight. I still don't know if I would put him ahead of Cap in terms of abilities especially if Cap gets his Shield for the fight.

ok Darth you are assuming Cap has some amazing fighting skill (even tho he hasn't shown it) based on "Fury made him the leader" and "he fought in WWII".

you dont see the problem with this? Ozy not only showed he had a sh!t load of skill but made two (three if you count Silk Specter II) people who were ATLEAST peak human and at most low level superhuman (going by feats here not statements)

Comicbook Cap is another story entirely but as far as movie Cap goes he has shown nothing to indicate he can beat Ozy

Originally posted by juggerman
ok Darth you are assuming Cap has some amazing fighting skill (even tho he hasn't shown it) based on "Fury made him the leader" and "he fought in WWII". you dont see the problem with this?

Well I never said "Amazing" fighting skills. I said anyone who thinks Cap can't fight, considering the facts, are kidding themselves.


Originally posted by juggerman
Ozy not only showed he had a sh!t load of skill but made two (three if you count Silk Specter II) people who were ATLEAST peak human and at most low level superhuman (going by feats here not statements)

Which means what exactly? Peak human? Cap was squatting human away like flies. Cap took punches from the Red Skull (who could punch through bullet proof shields) and says "I can do this all day.."

What durability feats does Ozy have?

I'm betting Cap with his superior strength and healing abilities can take anything Ozy can dish out.

well to think he can take Ozy who whooped on two guys WITH amazing fighting skill Cap would really have to have some sweet moves



which means they were better fighters than Cap and had some strength feats that put them above peak human imo.



he caught a bullet. as in the bullet did not go thru his hand. i dont think he had on bullet proof gloves.

plus he willingly took several full power punches from Night Owl who has broken bones with a single punch WITHOUT being KO'd or seriously injured



but with Cap massively inferior h2h skills and combat speed he will eventually be worn down (as has shown to be possible) without so much as touching Ozy

Originally posted by juggerman
well to think he can take Ozy who whooped on two guys WITH amazing fighting skill Cap would really have to have some sweet moves

Well no because those 2 guys were only peak human.

Cap's >>>> those 2 opponents.



Originally posted by juggerman
which means they were better fighters than Cap and had some strength feats that put them above peak human imo.

Combat skill really won't matter much unless strength and speed is comparable.



Originally posted by juggerman
he caught a bullet. as in the bullet did not go thru his hand. i dont think he had on bullet proof gloves.

Yes that was very impressive. And tbh his speed is his most lethal weapon, and the only weapon of his that would be a major threat to Cap. Of course it might be all he needs, but as mentioned I think Cap can take a good deal of damage.


Originally posted by juggerman
plus he willingly took several full power punches from Night Owl who has broken bones with a single punch WITHOUT being KO'd or seriously injured

Which doesn't really compare to Cap taking full power punches from Red Skull...

Or Cap getting up a few seconds after taking an alien laser blast to the stomach...

Or Cap surviving a plane crash and being frozen for 70 years.

We know Cap is stronger, and we know Cap has a healing ability. And we know Cap has >>> durability feats. So I really don't think durability is even a contest here.



Originally posted by juggerman
but with Cap massively inferior h2h skills and combat speed he will eventually be worn down (as has shown to be possible) without so much as touching Ozy

When was he shown to be worn down? After he took an alien laser blast to the stomach?? Even then he still got up after a few seconds and carried on fighting.

when did Cap show superior fighting ability to either of those 2 "peak human" guys?


just running in and bull rushing with the shield isnt gonna be too effective here and thats Caps go to move



combat skill most certainly matters here since the two "peak human" guys had WAY more fighting skill than Cap has ever shown yet there were unable to do anything at all to Ozy who was severly holding back



yes im sure Caps durabilty is above Ozys i only mentioned those feats cuz you asked for some.

but you are assuming Cap has greater fighting skill than he has actually shown so can i then assume than since Ozy caught a bullet that he is completely bullet proof even tho he hasnt shown it?



well it was never my point that their durability was comparable just that Ozy has shown to be durable.



he has been shown to have limits. not saying his limits are easily reached but they are there. like after the explosion in Avengers and he hit the car he got up very slowly showing he was hurt. the blaster also hurt him. its been awhile since i saw Captain America but im pretty sure there were times when he was hurt.

meaning with enough of an ass whooping he will go down.

also Cap can be killed by things like bullets, fire, sharp objects ect. just like Ozy can. it doesnt just have to come down to "who beats whom to death 1st with their bare hands". and since Ozy is a much faster and better fighter its more likely that he would get the kill well before Cap had the opportunity

Would be an absolutely incredible fight, with as many punches & kicks blocked and parried as made contact. Cap throws the shield at Veidt, that would be a mistake.

Only edge for Cap I can see is his stamina would be greater, thanks to the serum. That's how he could outlast Veidt...possibly.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No actually if you get your head out of your ass for a second

I can't get it out: it has to be there first for me to take it out.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
you will see that I'm addressing everyone else's points who are in the Ozzy camp, because they are making points worth addressing.

Incorrect: you are failing to address their points and, instead, your just posting words at people.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just not going to waste my time addressing your pointless arguments.

In other words, you are saying this to me: "You obviously would put me to shame so I dare not attempt to actually engage you in a debate. I concede, man. UNCLE! UNNNCLE!"


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Coming out with crap like "Ozy wins because he wears body armor, and because he's really good at watching more than one TV channel" Lulz!

Yeah, having body armor and the ability to focus on dozens of things at once in no way would help in a fight, at all! HAHA! Oh boy, you got me!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not to mention your just outright making crap up like Roscharch and Nite Owl had super powers,

Did I say they had "super powers"? Did I? Hmm?


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and Cap never wore protection.

Did I say Steve never work protection? Hmm?




Darth: give it up, I am too awesome for you.


Edit - And why did you ignore my Lex Luthor scan! It was hilariously awesome against your point. I laughed, man. I laughed!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well we don't know how much time passed tbh.

And it's not like we were shown Ozy went through years of ninja training or anything. Yes his moves looked better. But that's just down to choreography.

But all I'm saying is considering:

1)the fact that Cap is a Soldier in WWII and then
2)a SHIELD agent in the 21st century and
3)the fact the Avengers naturally give charge of the team to him being the most experienced/competent soldier,
4)the fact that Nick Fury himself says "Wars are won by Soldiers" referring to Cap,
5) We see him on the boxing bag in his spare time..

Then I think we can pretty much assume he's a trained fighter.

It was implied that the government was in a hurry to get the super-soldier program started and from screen time, it didn't seem that long. So it's safe to say at most he went through what amounted to was basic training. 6-8 weeks, iirc.

We have no idea how much training Ozymandias went through, but we do know he was an active crime fighter for a couple decades or so, iirc.

It's jut not the level of choreography in Watchmen Vs CA/Avengers, as we see Black Widow doing fancy flips and such. Ozymandias showed far superior fighting skills; this is just a fact we see. Night Owl showed better skills than Captain America and he got his ass along with Rorschach's handed to him by a guy who was actively not trying to overly harm them and having a conversation. That's two asses.

1) Being a soldier doesn't mean you're some skilled H2H combatant on that merit alone
2) If SHIELD trained him, we didn't see the fruits of their labor. He fought in the same basic-manner as he did in Captain America
3) Means he's a natural leader or a good leader
4) No one is arguing that Captain America isn't a soldier
5) Yes, what I said, he showed "passable boxing skills"

Again, don't think I ever implied he was just some average dope and in the end we can argue 'levels of training' until we shit our diapers, but what counts is what was shown; Ozymandias is far superior in fighting skill and he's ridiculously faster.

Ozymandias took on two above peak human fighters easily.

Captain America was beating the shit out of hundreds of superhuman warriors with high-tech weaponry who could fall hundreds of feet and had the strength to grapple onto buildings without their limbs shattering.

When Dan's punches actually landed, Ozymandia's face was bruised and bloodied up.

Captain America took hits from Loki without much complaint, and was blown out of the second or third floor of a building by an explosion, and proceeded to land on a car. He got up and continued fighting.

Captain America wins.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Ozymandias took on two above peak human fighters easily.

Captain America was beating the shit out of hundreds of superhuman warriors with high-tech weaponry who could fall hundreds of feet and had the strength to grapple onto buildings without their limbs shattering.

When Dan's punches actually landed, Ozymandia's face was bruised and bloodied up.

Captain America took hits from Loki without much complaint, and was blown out of the second or third floor of a building by an explosion, and proceeded to land on a car. He got up and continued fighting.

Captain America wins.

He did and then some.

His attacks were basic swings and such for the most part and I don't recall the Chitauri foot troops showing any fighting skills besides firing their guns and charging head-long like morons.

When Ozymandias allowed himself to be beaten and didn't bother to move in an attempt to deflect some of the force. Night Owl also showed extreme strength, he would have caved in a normal human's face.

Yes, Captain America has super-human durability.

He's not landing a single blow on Ozymandias unless Ozymandias wishes, so how can he win in a fight like this?

Cap's best bet is to strip down, show Ozymandias his defined ass and hope Ozymandias takes the bait. After Ozymandias as blown his load and is tired, Cap can try and capitalize on that.

Originally posted by Robtard
He did and then some.

His attacks were basic swings and such for the most part and I don't recall the Chitauri foot troops showing any fighting skills besides firing their guns and charging head-long like morons.

That doesn't mean a whole lot considering they are strong enough to tear any character without a blue dong in Watchmen in half.

Ozymandias is strong, but he is being wanked. Captain America fights an army of superhumans and wins.

"Hurdur fighting skill" is an idiotic argument used to get around the fact that the opposition is physically far superior to your side. In this case, Cap>>Oz.



Right, which is what happened when he punched normal men in the movie. Oh wait, that isn't what happened!

Captain America hits far harder than Dan.



More than Oz's, yes.



Ah yes, the reaction-time = Untouchable argument.

That argument is ****ing stupid.

Ozymandias was never portrayed as so fast he could easily dodge and avoid every ****ing blow his opponents threw. He had to resort to blocking or parrying throughout much of his showings, something he isn't doing to a character who could frankly manhandle him. Cap is much stronger than Dan, Rorschach, or even Comedian. Hell, Comedian IIRC actually got hits in. Like a badass.



Or he could just power through everything Ozymandias has and beat him into submission. Because that's exactly what will happen. With the shield even more-so.

Originally posted by NemeBro
That doesn't mean a whole lot considering they are strong enough to tear any character without a blue dong in Watchmen in half.


So you'll ignore that fact that they can easily beat the shit of out top-level gangsters and criminals (like they were nothing) just so you can say Steve wins? Gotcha: you're clearly approaching this with an objective mind.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Ozymandias is strong, but he is being wanked.

Not really. I estimated, a couple of years back, his strength to be between 1-2 ton class. About where Steve is.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Captain America fights an army of superhumans and wins.

Oh really? And where did he do this?

Originally posted by NemeBro
"Hurdur fighting skill" is an idiotic argument used to get around the fact that the opposition is physically far superior to your side. In this case, Cap>>Oz.

Okay, let's do it your way: Ozy's much more superior speed and fighting skill no longer matters. Let's just ignore Ozy's extreme superhuman ability to focus on dozens of things at once. Let us also ignore that he caught a bullet. Now, let's also pretend that they just haymaker punch each other the whole time.

HOORAY! Steve might win, now!





Originally posted by NemeBro
Captain America hits far harder than Dan..

I disagree with this statement.

Originally posted by NemeBro
More than Oz's, yes.

I disagree with this statement, as well. Consider that Ozy has high durability (just his body, alone). Then consider he is wearing body armor. Then consider that Steve has a shield and has comparable "naked" durability to Ozy. Who wins in durability? Tough to say, for me.



Originally posted by NemeBro
Ah yes, the reaction-time = Untouchable argument.

That argument is ****ing stupid.

Wait, so you're mad because Steve literally could not touch Ozy unless Ozy allowed Steve to? haermm

GTFO.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Ozymandias was never portrayed as so fast he could easily dodge and avoid every ****ing blow his opponents threw.

That's just too bad: he really did. He was shown to have the ability to block, dodge, and parry every move thrown at him by opponents who are comparable to Steve Rogers.

Originally posted by NemeBro
He had to resort to blocking or parrying throughout much of his showings, something he isn't doing to a character who could frankly manhandle him. Cap is much stronger than Dan, Rorschach, or even Comedian. Hell, Comedian IIRC actually got hits in. Like a badass.

Wait...let's back up.

Dan and Rorscach are both superior fighters to Captain America. Both are around or above Steve's durability. So your argument really does fail to hold any weight.



Originally posted by NemeBro
Or he could just power through everything Ozymandias has and beat him into submission. Because that's exactly what will happen. With the shield even more-so.

No, what will happen is Ozy will treat Steve Rogers just like he did Dan: with ease. It will be even worse because Dan is a better fighter, by far, than Steve. Steve's only saving grace is his shield. However, Steve will be disarmed so quickly that he will be shitting himself, while on his back, as Ozy gayly struts away.

I don't if Neme & Darth are joking or not but they're funny as hell

Nite Owl, Rorschach, and Comedian are all comparable to Cpt. America in combat, and none of them came close to even touching Ozymandias. Without the shield Cap loses.

With the shield he could scrape a victory though.

Originally posted by The Silent Hero
Nite Owl, Rorschach, and Comedian are all comparable to Cpt. America in combat, and none of them came close to even touching Ozymandias. Without the shield Cap loses.

With the shield he could scrape a victory though.


This is pretty much my logic, as well.

Originally posted by NemeBro
That doesn't mean a whole lot considering they are strong enough to tear any character without a blue dong in Watchmen in half.

Ozymandias is strong, but he is being wanked. Captain America fights an army of superhumans and wins.

"Hurdur fighting skill" is an idiotic argument used to get around the fact that the opposition is physically far superior to your side. In this case, Cap>>Oz.

Right, which is what happened when he punched normal men in the movie. Oh wait, that isn't what happened!

Captain America hits far harder than Dan.

More than Oz's, yes.

Ah yes, the reaction-time = Untouchable argument.

That argument is ****ing stupid.

Ozymandias was never portrayed as so fast he could easily dodge and avoid every ****ing blow his opponents threw. He had to resort to blocking or parrying throughout much of his showings, something he isn't doing to a character who could frankly manhandle him. Cap is much stronger than Dan, Rorschach, or even Comedian. Hell, Comedian IIRC actually got hits in. Like a badass.



Or he could just power through everything Ozymandias has and beat him into submission. Because that's exactly what will happen. With the shield even more-so.

Captain America's not strong enough to tear a normal person in half, let alone someone like Oxymandias who is shown to be super-human.

Ozymandias' strength isn't being wanked, he's clearly super-human, unless you think peak-humans can kick people like a soccer ball? Captain America never fought an "army of super-humans", so who's being the wankety wanker now?

Fighting skills matter a lot in a fight like this, it's not like Captain America is THAT far about Ozymandias. Now if it was Superman Vs Blade, sure, your point would be valid. Stop trying to marginalize Ozymandias ridiculously superior fighting ability.

Did you not see how Night Owl was breaking bone with simple punches in the alley scene?

Captain America hits harder than Night Owl, agreed. Him being able to hit Ozymandias with a solid blow is unlikely though.

If we're not idiots and do include that Ozymandias' suit is most likely bullet-proof body-armor like his gloves are, the durability might be close. But again, Ozymandias could be nude here and it'd be the same, Cap's likely not landing a solid blow.

You're saying reaction-time is stupid cos you need it to be. But a guy fast enough to catch a thrown knife, evade a gunmen and then catch a bullet, that matters a lot in a fight like this.

Except he was never hit until he allowed himself to be; even when fighting multiple foes with higher skills than Cap. To say that Captain America is going to cripple Ozymandias when he parry's an attack is ridiculous. Ozymandias is super-human himself and Captain America isn't the Hulk.

Again, beat Ozymandias how when Cap's likely not going to land a single blow that matters? Ozymandias is picking him apart, blow after blow.

Ozymandias

If this was Ultimate Avengers Capt it would be a bitchrapestomp....But it's not...So it's not.

Oz wins.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Ozymandias

Listen to the Kraut.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn


I don't if Neme & Darth are joking or not but they're funny as hell

Well to me this is a joke:

Originally posted by The Silent Hero
Nite Owl, Rorschach, and Comedian are all comparable to Cpt. America in combat, and none of them came close to even touching Ozymandias.

How can Nite Owl, Rorschach, and Comedian be compared to Cap in combat where none of them are anywhere near as strong or as fast as Cap??

Cap has speed now?

speed enough to run down a car during WWII.

not a great amount of combat speed tho

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How can Nite Owl, Rorschach, and Comedian be compared to Cap in combat where none of them are anywhere near as strong or as fast as Cap??

Here's your problem: they are about as strong (maybe slightly weaker) and faster in fighting ability that Captain.


That's your disconnect.



Want me to do a frame by frame punch-speed calc for you?



Find me the fastest punch that Cap threw in a combat situation and I'll calc the speed. If it is not over 300 mph, don't bother bringing it up.

they were indeed near his strength. nobody is saying they were as strong or stronger than Cap but to say they weren't "anywhere near as strong" is just plain false.

and they were much faster fighters. Cap only really showed great speed in the car chase scene but not much since then. if this were a race then yeah Cap has them licked but in a fight all that running speed won't do anything for Cap. that's like arguing that since and Olympic sprinter is faster than a professional boxer that he'll win in a fight

Originally posted by juggerman
they were indeed near his strength. nobody is saying they were as strong or stronger than Cap but to say they weren't "anywhere near as strong" is just plain false.

and they were much faster fighters. Cap only really showed great speed in the car chase scene but not much since then. if this were a race then yeah Cap has them licked but in a fight all that running speed won't do anything for Cap. that's like arguing that since and Olympic sprinter is faster than a professional boxer that he'll win in a fight The only Watchmen I believe you could make a strong case for being as strong as Cap is Ozy.

None of the other character come close to the feats Cap could pull off.

Of course I'm not counting Dr. M in this statement

Originally posted by juggerman
and they were much faster fighters. Cap only really showed great speed in the car chase scene but not much since then. if this were a race then yeah Cap has them licked but in a fight all that running speed won't do anything for Cap. that's like arguing that since and Olympic sprinter is faster than a professional boxer that he'll win in a fight

Glad to you see you posting around these parts, duuuuude! Welcome to the MvF.


But, yes, I agree with your point and it was aptly put.

Originally posted by Newjak
The only Watchmen I believe you could make a strong case for being as strong as Cap is Ozy.

And Comedian even at 67.


Edit - In fact, just re-watched Comedian punch through wall tile. I did not catch that, before. He punches through it like broken chalk.

Just noticed me? dunno if i should be offended

but thank you for the backing here. i always enjoy having the donut man on my team!

Originally posted by juggerman
Just noticed me? dunno if i should be offended
Sorry, man..it's just that...I separate the posting in the GDF from the more playful fun post in the MvF.

Originally posted by juggerman
but thank you for the backing here. i always enjoy having the donut man on my team!



Wooo woooot! Donut Man is a good name.

yeah the GDF isnt as fun as some of the others. i try to bring some laughs but people just want to be so serious



i like it

Originally posted by dadudemon




Find me the fastest punch that Cap threw in a combat situation and I'll calc the speed. If it is not over 300 mph, don't bother bringing it up.

Your crazy dude..

Wait you the same guy who was saying Movie Superman is slow and weak becase we didn't see him punch at super speed and because the Bus hit him really slowly? Lol

Reeves Supes was slow in combat. Just a sign of the times in film making.

They fixed that problem in later versions. But he was damn slow.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah it's not close. Cap didn't throw an object through glass. He punched through the glass cover of a submarine himself.

He threw a man Vertically upwards from underwater a good 20 feet.

He was lifting 3 women on a motorcycle for an undefined amount of time with the up most of ease.

So Ozy's strength feats do not come close to Cap's (and Ozy's durability feats are nil which I will get to in a sec). Cap would throw around the guys that Ozzy did with utter ease considering his feats.

How are they not comparable? Ozy threw Comedian through a re-inforced plate glass window. The inspector at the scene afterwards said "you'd have to step on the gas just to put a crack in it." Stepping on the gas, in a car, would merely leave a crack in it. Yet Ozy shattered it like a sheet of paper-thin ice by tossing a 225lb man into it. Also, Comedian's build like a football player, the other guy looked very thin in comparison. Stands to reason that Ozy threw the much heavier man as well.

Look, even the Ozy supporters for the most part agree that Cap is stronger, but don't act like Cap has Hulk-like strength compared to Ozy. The difference isn't -that- big.



Uh I fail to see how Cap was so much faster than Rorschach and Nite Owl. Rorschach was evading bullets IIRC in the police frame-up scene, while Nite Owl was fending off hordes of prisoners and gangsters in his two fight scenes without even being touched before the fight with Ozy.



It took several hard punches from Nite Owl to merely give Ozy a bloody lip. Keep in mind Nite Owl was breaking limbs and causing compound fractures with casual blows to normal humans. I will give Cap the durability edge though, as IIRC, he did tank more in his movies.



Once again, you are ignoring the massive speed and skill advantage that Ozy possesses over Cap. Cap is stronger and more durable, but that alone isn't enough to give him a win. The Comedian was punching holes through sheet rock (not just shattering, literally holes, his fist went straight into the adjacent room), and Ozy was blocking and countering without any problems whatsoever. If Cap lands a blow, it will hurt Ozy, I agree, but it won't put him down, as Ozy has his own degree of durability as well. And he's going to have a hard time landing a hit against a much faster and more skilled opponent with comparable strength.

People also argue that Cap gains an advantage with the shield. In his fight against Loki he got frustrated quickly once he realised he was fighting a non-jobber.

He threw his shield in frustration and Loki smacked it aside.
I see the same happening here.
Cap throws his shield and Ozy's Slo-mo power kicks in and he jump kicks the shield off its trajectory and it lands aside.

Ozy blocks Cap from the downed shield and himself and proceeds to dismantle him.

Cap may have durability and slight strength advantage. But against an elite tactical fighter with slo-mo capability. He gets his throat kicked in. Then it's just a matter of time before Ozy kills the man he has no history of friendship with.

He didn't kill his ex-teammates because of history and respect. Cap is just some punk off the street to Ozy. He will show no remorse nor restraint/

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your crazy dude..

Yeah, using my brain and science is some 'crazy shit', man.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Wait you the same guy who was saying Movie Superman is slow and weak becase we didn't see him punch at super speed and because the Bus hit him really slowly? Lol

No. That was not me.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, using my brain and science is some 'crazy shit', man.



Using your brain and science to judge which comic book movie hero is faster based on the speed of the stuntmen used is over analyzing.

So now we're taking away movie feats now?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Using your brain and science to judge which comic book movie hero is faster based on the speed of the stuntmen used is over analyzing.

No, that would be incorrect.


If you wanted to be correct, you would have said this:

"Using your brain and science to judge which movie character is faster, based on onscreen feats; which used heavy editing, aftereffects, and CGI; would determine which movie character is faster within the confines and rules of the Movie Versus Forum."

Now why would we do a frame by frame to see who is faster, onscreen?

Oh, right...because you claimed Captain America was faster than Ozymandias.


So when someone offers to definitively prove you wrong (we have already been down the road with gauging Ozymandias' speed in the MvF, in the past, when it was a matchup with HitGirl or something), all of a sudden, the discussion now becomes over-analyzed.

Originally posted by juggerman
So now we're taking away movie feats now?
is that surprising?
hes already said Caps a better fighter because he was in the military

Originally posted by dadudemon


Oh, right...because you claimed Captain America was faster than Ozymandias.




Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
is that surprising?
hes already said Caps a better fighter because he was in the military

Wow. Two plain out Lies in a row. Did your Mom's never teach you not to lie!


For the record what I actually said was it would be foolish to think a Soldier and Shield agent could not fight, and that Cap running after a car and plane can obviously move faster than Nite Owl, Comedian and Rorschach.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, that would be incorrect.


If you wanted to be correct, you would have said this:

"Using your brain and science to judge which movie character is faster, based on onscreen feats; which used heavy editing, aftereffects, and CGI; would determine which movie character is faster within the confines and rules of the Movie Versus Forum."

Now why would we do a frame by frame to see who is faster, onscreen?



Originally posted by juggerman
So now we're taking away movie feats now?

No. All I've used are movie feats. Movie feats are things like Cap chasing a car, holding up a motorbike plus 3 people with ease, or Ozy catching a bullet.

Over analyzing is freeze framing shots of stunt men work and choreography to see which punch was faster.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Over analyzing is freeze framing shots of stunt men work and choreography to see which punch was faster.



Originally posted by dadudemon
No, that would be incorrect.


If you wanted to be correct, you would have said this:

"Using your brain and science to judge which movie character is faster, based on onscreen feats; which used heavy editing, aftereffects, and CGI; would determine which movie character is faster within the confines and rules of the Movie Versus Forum."

Now why would we do a frame by frame to see who is faster, onscreen?

Oh, right...because you claimed Captain America was faster than Ozymandias.


So when someone offers to definitively prove you wrong (we have already been down the road with gauging Ozymandias' speed in the MvF, in the past, when it was a matchup with HitGirl or something), all of a sudden, the discussion now becomes over-analyzed.

So Donut Man. How many wins would you give Cap here out of 10?

0 wins out of 10. Mostly because he is hopelessly outclassed.


Even if we bumped it up to 1000 fights, it would still be 0 wins for Steve. There is no hope of Steve even landing a hit. That's the main problem.

Originally posted by dadudemon
0 wins out of 10. Mostly because he is hopelessly outclassed.


Even if we bumped it up to 1000 fights, it would still be 0 wins for Steve. There is no hope of Steve even landing a hit. That's the main problem.

That's a pretty ridiculous assessment. Ozy was never shown to be an untouchable speedster. If he was the Comedian fight wouldn't have lasted anywhere near as long as it did, and Ozy would not have been invloved in any H2H combat at all.

Is Ozy faster based on movie feats and portrayals? Yes of course he is.

But claiming Cap doesn't have a hope of even landing one hit and therefore even getting 1 win out of a thousand is over rating the speed factor here to insane levels.

No its not ridiculous.
only reason comedian lasted as long as he did was because he himself was an amazing fighter also farrrr better than cap & was still viciously beaten

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
No its not ridiculous.
only reason comedian lasted as long as he did was because he himself was an amazing fighter also farrrr better than cap & was still viciously beaten

True that fight between the Comedian and Ozy was simply Ozy countering everything he threw at him whilst slowly breaking him down.

It was personal. Ozy has no history with Cap.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
No its not ridiculous.
only reason comedian lasted as long as he did was because he himself was an amazing fighter also farrrr better than cap & was still viciously beaten After re-watching the Avengers Cap would turn Comedian inside out.

I'm not sure about Ozy, but I'm pretty sure Cap could beat Rorsh, Night Owl, and Comedian all at the same time.

WHAT!!!!!!????????

Originally posted by juggerman
WHAT!!!!!!????????

The only time any of the Watchmen faced someone close to Cap in stats was Ozzy, and they all got destroyed.

Cap is also a better H2H fighter than people are giving him credit for. In the Avengers we clearly see him perform very well H2H and perform very acrobatic maneuvers while in combat.

Originally posted by Newjak


The only time any of the Watchmen faced someone close to Cap in stats was Ozzy, and they all got destroyed.

Cap is also a better H2H fighter than people are giving him credit for. In the Avengers we clearly see him perform very well H2H and perform very acrobatic maneuvers while in combat.

Why do people assume Cap had great H2H skills in Avengers and CA?

He was a stuntman during the siege of New York. Running through explosions and his takedown of the bombers was pretty lanky compared to the stuff comic fans are used too.
His fight against the HYDRA agents on the plane was pretty unimpressive and his best scene was blocking an aerial blast then defeating those two Chitauri atop the police car. Which showed immense strength and intuition but not skill.

His fighting skills against Loki were laughable. Even Black Widow said his style was "all over the place".

Night Owl and Rorshach were both breaking bones with punches iirc and Comedian punched a chunk of brick off the wall when fighting Ozy without the least bit of discomfort.

These guys are strong as heck and all were very skilled fighters. Comedian imo did better than Dan and Walter against Ozy since it seemed that Ozy focused more and was actually trying to kill him as opposed to talking and holding back like he did against the two and Comedian still lasted a while.

Cap has some fighting skill i think we can all agree on that. But he has not shown any fighting skill comparable to any of the Watchmen. Given that all the Watchmen are much superior fighters and at the very least have some what comparable strength it is a huge strech to say Cap can take more than one at a time let alone 3

Originally posted by the ninjak
Why do people assume Cap had great H2H skills in Avengers and CA?

He was a stuntman during the siege of New York. Running through explosions and his takedown of the bombers was pretty lanky compared to the stuff comic fans are used too.
His fight against the HYDRA agents on the plane was pretty unimpressive and his best scene was blocking an aerial blast then defeating those two Chitauri atop the police car. Which showed immense strength and intuition but not skill.

His fighting skills against Loki were laughable. Even Black Widow said his style was "all over the place". He actually took down three of them on the Cop Car. Took down a whole group (5-6) of them easily when he stopped them from throwing a grenade on a crowd.

He was even able to jump up and place himself completely behind his shield before the Gernade went off.

He was skilled and acrobatic in the Avengers.

Just because Cap wasn't flashy doesn't mean he was terrible. He was obviously meant to be a great fighter which is what he showed.

Also it wasn't like Loki was an unskilled fighter. We see in Thor/Avengers he is very capable in H2H/Melee/Range combat.

Add to the fact that he is bullet proof and much stronger than a normal being then it's not exactly a bad showing for Cap to be losing to someone like that.

Loki would have torn the entire cast of Watchmen, Minus Dr. M, apart.

Originally posted by juggerman
Night Owl and Rorshach were both breaking bones with punches iirc and Comedian punched a chunk of brick off the wall when fighting Ozy without the least bit of discomfort.

These guys are strong as heck and all were very skilled fighters. Comedian imo did better than Dan and Walter against Ozy since it seemed that Ozy focused more and was actually trying to kill him as opposed to talking and holding back like he did against the two and Comedian still lasted a while.

Cap has some fighting skill i think we can all agree on that. But he has not shown any fighting skill comparable to any of the Watchmen. Given that all the Watchmen are much superior fighters and at the very least have some what comparable strength it is a huge strech to say Cap can take more than one at a time let alone 3 Normal Human beings can break Bone and I've seen the video it wasn't brick that Comedian broke through. And even if it was it's still something a normal human being could do.

Obviously they are better than humans but not by much and definitely not to the same extent Cap was. Or are you forgetting that Rosharch got taken by a police force something that would have never happened to Cap in the same Scenario.

They aren't comparable to any degree to what Cap has shown in terms of physical stats. The only person who has is Ozy.

Didn't Cap get captured by heavily armored slow moving drones with flame throwers. Seems worse than getting caught by the fuzz to me.

Originally posted by juggerman
Didn't Cap get captured by heavily armored slow moving drones with flame throwers. Seems worse than getting caught by the fuzz to me. Getting caught was part of his plan actually.

Originally posted by Newjak
After re-watching the Avengers Cap would turn Comedian inside out.

I'm not sure about Ozy, but I'm pretty sure Cap could beat Rorsh, Night Owl, and Comedian all at the same time. Originally posted by juggerman
WHAT!!!!!!????????

Originally posted by Newjak
He actually took down three of them on the Cop Car.

You sure it wasn't two on each side?

Originally posted by Newjak
Took down a whole group (5-6) of them easily when he stopped them from throwing a grenade on a crowd.
He was even able to jump up and place himself completely behind his shield before the Gernade went off.

I don't see such a feat helping in regards to this particular fight.

Originally posted by Newjak He was skilled and acrobatic in the Avengers.
Just because Cap wasn't flashy doesn't mean he was terrible. He was obviously meant to be a great fighter which is what he showed.

He ran. explosions happened around him. And even an explosion resulted in a car lifting up beneath him so he could do a somersault.
Yes acrobatic but stunt work that won't help here.

Originally posted by Newjak Also it wasn't like Loki was an unskilled fighter. We see in Thor/Avengers he is very capable in H2H/Melee/Range combat.

Add to the fact that he is bullet proof and much stronger than a normal being then it's not exactly a bad showing for Cap to be losing to someone like that.

Loki would have torn the entire cast of Watchmen, Minus Dr. M, apart.

I agree Loki would've killed the Watchmen. But it was his skill in the fight I was referring to. Ozy would easily avoid a thrown shield and showed the strength and agility to jump and kick it aside off it's trajectory like Loki did with a casual staff swipe.


Originally posted by Newjak
Normal Human beings can break Bone and I've seen the video it wasn't brick that Comedian broke through. And even if it was it's still something a normal human being could do.

What do you think it was? Tile and plaster? And in regards to the bone snapping and the other Watchmen's feats. the best MAers of today would have a hard time replicating such feats.

Originally posted by Newjak Obviously they are better than humans but not by much and definitely not to the same extent Cap was. Or are you forgetting that Rosharch got taken by a police force something that would have never happened to Cap in the same Scenario.

An unarmed Cap? Rorschach didn't want to kill cops. But he was willing to hurt them to escape. But once overwhelmed by a whole squad of guys he got pelted down. Cap surrounded by such cops would eventually be forced into capture as well. That is without the shield. With the shield he would've had to give up regardless. It would have eventuated into the same situation he was in when caught between the HYDRA flamethrowers.

Originally posted by Newjak They aren't comparable to any degree to what Cap has shown in terms of physical stats. The only person who has is Ozy.

And Ozy, is who he is fighting. Ozy would've eventually been captured by so many cops as well. Some armed, many with clubs. Ozy wouldn't kill/break cops just to escape a surrounded building. And eventually a street situation surrounded by police. It was a trap!

Originally posted by the ninjak
You sure it wasn't two on each side?



I don't see such a feat helping in regards to this particular fight.



He ran. explosions happened around him. And even an explosion resulted in a car lifting up beneath him so he could do a somersault.
Yes acrobatic but stunt work that won't help here.



I agree Loki would've killed the Watchmen. But it was his skill in the fight I was referring to. Ozy would easily avoid a thrown shield and showed the strength and agility to jump and kick it aside off it's trajectory like Loki did with a casual staff swipe.




What do you think it was? Tile and plaster? And in regards to the bone snapping and the other Watchmen's feats. the best MAers of today would have a hard time replicating such feats.



An unarmed Cap? Rorschach didn't want to kill cops. But he was willing to hurt them to escape. But once overwhelmed by a whole squad of guys he got pelted down. Cap surrounded by such cops would eventually be forced into capture as well. That is without the shield. With the shield he would've had to give up regardless. It would have eventuated into the same situation he was in when caught between the HYDRA flamethrowers.



And Ozy, is who he is fighting. Ozy would've eventually been captured by so many cops as well. Some armed, many with clubs. Ozy wouldn't kill/break cops just to escape a surrounded building. And eventually a street situation surrounded by police. It was a trap! It could have been two one each side, but I definitely know Cap took down more than two when he was on top of the cop car.

He took down a group of Aliens with H2H skill and showed his quickness and agility something people have talked about in this fight acting like Cap is slow.

Cap's skill was fine with Loki, he was taking a on a much physically superior opponent who was also extremely skilled as shown multiple times. The fact Cap could hang with him at all is a testament to his skill.

It definitely didn't look like brick. The point is a normal human being could cause the same damage as what the Watchmen did without the need of Superhuman Strength. On the other hand besides OZy none of them actually showed any feats that show them in Cap's Strength range or close to it.

You do realize Cap wanted to get captured at the Hydra Base. Cap would have totally been able to not get captured like Rorsh did. He was handling squads of guys in his movie and squads of Aliens, with much better firepower than cops, in the Avengers. A squad of Cops would have been a plaything to him.

I know the thread is Cap vs Ozy but people keep acting like the other three Watchmen would be able to Match Cap. They wouldn't Cap was just as skilled is not more as what those guys were showing plus a hell of a lot better in physical stats. I don't see the night owl, rorsh, comedian pulling off the same feats Cap did or even close to it.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
No its not ridiculous.
only reason comedian lasted as long as he did was because he himself was an amazing fighter also farrrr better than cap & was still viciously beaten

So now Comedian's > Cap???

Omg so now forget Ozzy but we're dicussing Rorsh, Night Owl, and Comedian vs Cap???

You guys really think 3 peak humans can match Cap.

None of those 3 could move fast enough to chase cars and planes.

And strength isn't even a comparison.

And yes Cap can fight. Don't be so foolish to think he can't.

Okay, I'm convinced now, Captain America hit Ozymandias once and Ozymandias explodes into a ball on rainbow confetti.

wtf did cap do that the watchmen as you said couldnt come close to?

Originally posted by Robtard
Okay, I'm convinced now, Captain America hit Ozymandias once and Ozymandias explodes into a ball on rainbow confetti.

Of course

Dam I was ignorant

Originally posted by Robtard
Okay, I'm convinced now, Captain America hit Ozymandias once and Ozymandias explodes into a ball on rainbow confetti. Wow an extreme statement to make a point.

Ever since watching the videos I have not said that Ozy will be one shotted cause Ozy is obviously Superhuman. The rest of the bunch not so much.

Breaking human bones is something normal people do sometimes by accident or do you remember a certain ifghter breaking his own leg while kicking someone. Punching through an interior portion of an apartment is not exactly impossible for a decently built human being. Yet these are feats that apparently make them equal or close Cap in strength. And their skill consists of Comedian getting his head pushed in by Ozy, Night Owl and Silk Specter beating a group of thugs which is action star 101. Rorschach beating some more thugs. Of course Rorsh and Night Owl both got their guts beaten to a pulp by the one human shown to have legit no normal human being could pull this off Superhuman feats.

I doubt Comedian, Night Owl, and Rorsh would have been able to beat Ozy together with the way they portrayed him.

Yet I'm supposed to believe Captain America who has better strength feats than Ozy, yes throwing someone out of the water 15 feet into the airwhile only being able to tread water is better, can take on entire squadrons of Aliens with advanced technology with only his shield and H2H ability, and has superhuman agility and reflexes, the guy can run down a speeding car and launch his shield with such precision he can keep a door around a corner from closing by wedging it in something a second difference in timing could have made, yet he could not pull off the same feat Ozy did because you believe Ozy is so much quicker and more skilled because he is flashier and caught a bullet he knew was going to be coming at him.

Yes I believe Cap can beat those three if Ozy can. Even if you don't believe Ozy can I still believe Cap could.

Ozy and Cap would be a tough fight though.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
wtf did cap do that the watchmen as you said couldnt come close to? Chasing down a speeding car on foot. Being able to launch a human being 15 feet into the air while treading water. Taking on Squadrons of Aliens with laser rifles. Lasting more than a minute with Loki in H2H. Jumping something like 40-60 feet across an exploding room. Tearing restraints off with ease like he did with Bucky. Holding unto a plane while it's traveling in the air.

Ozy could possibly do that but not the others.

Cap not even being able to win 1 out of 1000 is a bit of a stretch IMO. I think this will be a long fight, as Cap's strength and durability will be able to let him hang for a bit. But I still stand by my belief that Ozy would win a clear majority against Cap.

The other street-level Watchmen clearly aren't in the same league as Cap (Comedian could be close), but Ozy is still noticeably higher.

What's so remarkable about him throwing that guy out of the water? He probably planted his feet on the mini-sub beneath him.

Originally posted by The Silent Hero
What's so remarkable about him throwing that guy out of the water? He probably planted his feet on the mini-sub beneath him. The sub was out from the edge by a little bit and on the bottom of the river so unless Cap hauled that back with him, even more impressive than the feat I described, he threw him out of the watir without any foot holds.

Even if he did have footholds vertical pressing an average sized guy 15 feet in the air is still pretty epic.

Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Cap not even being able to win 1 out of 1000 is a bit of a stretch IMO. I think this will be a long fight, as Cap's strength and durability will be able to let him hang for a bit. But I still stand by my belief that Ozy would win a clear majority against Cap.

The other street-level Watchmen clearly aren't in the same league as Cap (Comedian could be close), but Ozy is still noticeably higher. I can respect that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's a pretty ridiculous assessment.


No, contradicting what I have stated is ridiculous.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ozy was never shown to be an untouchable speedster.

I would not word it as an "untouchable speedster".

I would word it more like, "Ozy has shown to be fast and skilled enough that the likes of Steve Rogers will never be able to land a hit."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Is Ozy faster based on movie feats and portrayals? Yes of course he is.

Finally, a concession.


But Ozy is not just "faster". He's much faster. To the tune of multiple times faster, based on his movie feats. Ozy is not as fast as Quicksilver, from DC, for sure...I cannot think of a comparable character, though.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But claiming Cap doesn't have a hope of even landing one hit and therefore even getting 1 win out of a thousand is over rating the speed factor here to insane levels.

No, saying Captain can land a single hit in 1000 fights is overrating Steve.

Originally posted by juggerman
Night Owl and Rorshach were both breaking bones with punches iirc and Comedian punched a chunk of brick off the wall when fighting Ozy without the least bit of discomfort.

These guys are strong as heck and all were very skilled fighters. Comedian imo did better than Dan and Walter against Ozy since it seemed that Ozy focused more and was actually trying to kill him as opposed to talking and holding back like he did against the two and Comedian still lasted a while.

Cap has some fighting skill i think we can all agree on that. But he has not shown any fighting skill comparable to any of the Watchmen. Given that all the Watchmen are much superior fighters and at the very least have some what comparable strength it is a huge strech to say Cap can take more than one at a time let alone 3

Let us also note that Comedian was drinking before Ozy busted in his sh*t.

Originally posted by Newjak
Just because Cap wasn't flashy doesn't mean he was terrible. He was obviously meant to be a great fighter which is what he showed.

I agree, here. I do not think Steve is a slouch. That would be dumb.

Originally posted by Newjak
Normal Human beings can break Bone

But not in the way that was portrayed in the film, of course.


Originally posted by Newjak
and I've seen the video it wasn't brick that Comedian broke through.

I believe it was tile. It may have been brick. I would have to rewatch it. It does not matter, though: it's still on par with what Agent Smith was doing in the first Matrix Film.

Originally posted by Newjak
And even if it was it's still something a normal human being could do.

LOL!

No.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
None of those 3 could move fast enough to chase cars and planes.

I have destroyed this fail attempt from you, already: they are 3 superhumans, not peak humans.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And strength isn't even a comparison.

It is. Comedian, Ozy, Rorscach, Nightowl...they are all in the ballpark of Steve's strength.

Originally posted by dadudemon


I have destroyed this fail attempt from you, already: they are 3 superhumans, not peak humans.

When? Show me once when those 3 move fast enough to chase cars and planes?!



Originally posted by dadudemon
It is. Comedian, Ozy, Rorscach, Nightowl...they are all in the ballpark of Steve's strength.

For God's sakes whats wrong with you?! Rorscach got subdued by a few policemen. NightOwl never showed any superhuman strength. Let alone strength that even comes close to Caps.

And didn't you already admit Cap is stronger than Ozy?? So how now do the much less powerful 3 come close to Cap's strength. You have absolutely zero feats to base such a ridiculous assumption on.

Here for the hundreth time:

Cap lifts a motorbike and 3 women easily for an extended period of time. Cap punches through a Submarine. Cap sends people flying with a slight hit. Where on Earth did Comedian, Ozy, Rorscach, Nightowl show strength even close to that. And where did any of them show movement fast enough to chase cars and even planes??

Your arguments have gone from bad to just total lunacy now.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When? Show me once when those 3 move fast enough to chase cars and planes?!

Go back through the thread that you have been posting in for ages: do not ask troll questions like this one because I'm not playing your troll games. Find it yourself if you have already forgotten: why ask me to do you work for you again?





Originally posted by DARTH POWER
For God's sakes whats wrong with you?! Rorscach got subdued by a few policemen.

HAHAHAHA!

"just a few" huh?

hahahahaha


qNfWlt69WKI


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
NightOwl never showed any superhuman strength. Let alone strength that even comes close to Caps.

He sure did. Please read the thread before you continue to make dumb comments like these.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And didn't you already admit Cap is stronger than Ozy??

Let's see what I said:

Originally posted by dadudemon
I also do not think Ozy is very far off from Cap's strength level.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I estimated, a couple of years back, his strength to be between 1-2 ton class. About where Steve is.

And here's my final say on the matter:

Originally posted by dadudemon
I cannot conclude that the Captain is stronger. I can debate both sides.

Just to give the Captain fanboys SOMETHING, I'll give them the edge in strength.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So how now do the much less powerful 3 come close to Cap's strength. You have absolutely zero feats to base such a ridiculous assumption on.

Correction: how do 3 characters, all 3 of which are around the same strength as Steve Rogers but vastly outclass Steve's fighting ability, come close to Steve's strength? By being about his strength, of course.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Here for the hundreth time:

Cap lifts a motorbike and 3 women easily for an extended period of time. Cap punches through a Submarine. Cap sends people flying with a slight hit. Where on Earth did Comedian, Ozy, Rorscach, Nightowl show strength even close to that. And where did any of them show movement fast enough to chase cars and even planes??


hmm. If you would have been paying attention, you would see strength feats that put Nightowl, Comedian, and Rorschach all on the same level...and some with very similar feats to Steve.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your arguments have gone from bad to just total lunacy now.

Your arguments have gone from bad arguments to recycled bad arguments with a dash of "oops, I forgot everything talked about in this thread!"

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4771/derpsandpedos.jpg

Link

Originally posted by dadudemon

Correction: how do 3 characters, all 3 of which are around the same strength as Steve Rogers but vastly outclass Steve's fighting ability, come close to Steve's strength? By being about his strength, of course.





hmm. If you would have been paying attention, you would see strength feats that put Nightowl, Comedian, and Rorschach all on the same level...and some with very similar feats to Steve.



Your arguments have gone from bad arguments to recycled bad arguments with a dash of "oops, I forgot everything talked about in this thread!"

There haven't been any strength feats from those 3 that even approach Caps.

What's their greatest lifting feat? When did they send guys flying all over the place.

Don't give me that I haven't been paying attention crap. Tell me what's their greatest lifting feat. And yes Rorschach got subdued by just a few policemen in the end. It was only 2 or 3 holding him when he was unmasked. And when he hit them they didn't exactly go flying. Cap would have been throwing those guys all over the place.

Jeez the Watchmen wanking has gone into overdrive now. If Batman was in Watchmen you'd be telling me he's as strong as Steve too. And btw Nite Owl is just a poor man's Batman.

Ok i don't know when some people are going here but my stance is that Cap is stronger than any of the Watchmen save Dr. Blue Balls. While he is clearly stronger i don't think his strength towers over them as some here seem to believe.

His strength advantage is more than "slight" but certainly less than "completely outclassed" The comparasion i would make would be "Blade vs Nomak". The reason being Nomak was clearly the stronger of the two but Blades superior skill kept him in the game

Cap is not one shotting any of these guys and here's why: Ozy's strength is more comparable to Cap's then anyone else yet it still took him several hits to put down Comedian (he had absolutly no reason to hold back here and he still didn't KO him) and also Dan has shown to have a degree of super strength imo yet Ozy willingly took several full power strikes to the face and still was fine. These guys have some amazing durability

Now the strength thing aside (whether you agree with me or not) this fight really comes down to fighting skill. Whether you want to admit it or not Ozy can hurt Cap. With enough damage he can put Cap down. He has shown skill vastly superior to anything Cap has shown and had speed to dodge/parry anything Cap has to offer by his showings. I in no way think Cap is a push over but he is crazy out classed here due to Ozy's skills and Cap's lack there of

I give Ozy 8.5/10 and im taking into account that Steve might get lucky here

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There haven't been any strength feats from those 3 that even approach Caps.

Wrong. Read the thread.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What's their greatest lifting feat? When did they send guys flying all over the place.

Read the thread.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Don't give me that I haven't been paying attention crap.

You clearly have not been paying attention. That or you are doing the "versus debate" troll tactics #3: pretend the evidence presented was never presented.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Tell me what's their greatest lifting feat.

Read the thread.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yes Rorschach got subdued by just a few policemen in the end. It was only 2 or 3 holding him when he was unmasked.

Wrong. The video clearly proves you wrong.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And when he hit them they didn't exactly go flying.

Wrong. The video clearly proves you wrong.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Cap would have been throwing those guys all over the place.

Wrong. The movie clearly proves you wrong.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Jeez the Watchmen wanking has gone into overdrive now.

Wrong. Captain America wanking has gone into overdrive by you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If Batman was in Watchmen you'd be telling me he's as strong as Steve too.

If he had the same feats, sure!


Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Daniel Dreiberg IS poorer than batman, for sure.




So we have a clear-cut case of your ignoring onscreen feats because you cannot deal with the reality that you Steve Rogers wanking simply isn't enough to overcome an ambiguously gay Super Genius of epic pizzaz.

what are the other "troll tactics"? I think it's important we all have this list!

Originally posted by juggerman
what are the other "troll tactics"? I think it's important we all have this list!

It's just stuff I make up.


I could make an official list...but I am too lazy.


Which is vs. debate troll tactics #4: when asked to do anything at all towards substantiation, do not do anything and claim laziness.



That tactic can often be confused for true laziness, though: I and Nemebro can claim true laziness.

You know I keep looking for the Alley Fight scene for Night Owl and th Silk Spectre. I've been holding off posting until I find it again the only one I've been able to find is the Prison Fight scene with them.

They were hardly Superhuman in that scene. I know their best feats were in the alley scene but I also don't remember them doing way more drastic things in that fight either besides the broken bone thing.

I would like to see the alley scene again if anyone can post it?

Mostly when it comes to the bone breaking scene I'm going off of memory which isn't always the best source.

I actually want to change my example i made earlier from "Blade vs Nomak" to "Hellboy vs Prince Nuada" since Nuada's skill and combat speed made it vurtually impossible for Hellboy to land a single blow (except for some sneaky moves iirc). So Hellboy's superior strength really meant nothing just like Cap's would

Originally posted by dadudemon
Wrong. Read the thread.



Read the thread.



You clearly have not been paying attention. That or you are doing the "versus debate" troll tactics #3: pretend the evidence presented was never presented.



Read the thread.




Wrong. The video clearly proves you wrong.



Wrong. The video clearly proves you wrong.




Wrong. The movie clearly proves you wrong.



Wrong. Captain America wanking has gone into overdrive by you.



If he had the same feats, sure!




Daniel Dreiberg IS poorer than batman, for sure.




So we have a clear-cut case of your ignoring onscreen feats because you cannot deal with the reality that you Steve Rogers wanking simply isn't enough to overcome an ambiguously gay Super Genius of epic pizzaz.

Right great, so even though I've had to continually repeat Cap's feats to get through to you, you can't just name one strength feat of Rorschach's or NiteOwls thats compares. Or speed feat that compares to Cap moving fast enough to chase cars and planes.

Yeah great debate

And your video proves nothing for you except your wanking of Rorschach.

He was crapping his pants in that scene where the police had the building surrounded. He needed to use flame throwers and all sorts of weapons just to get out of the building where in the confined space he didn't have to face more than a couple of cops at a time.

He never sent anyone flying through the air with one hit the way Cap does.

And he was held by 2 or 3 people at most.

Your video is proving your own case completely false, so I'm not sure why you posted it. Why don't you post Rorschach's apparent strength feats that compares to Caps??

Oh right, because they don't actually exist.

Yeah like I said nice debate

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Right great, so even though I've had to continually repeat Cap's feats to get through to you,

You haven't. But it makes it more dramatic if you think you did, right?


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
you can't just name one strength feat of Rorschach's or NiteOwls thats compares.

It's unnecessary for me to mention anything that hasn't already been posted.


If I were to repeat the same point over and over (that has already been posted in this thread multiple times), that could be a considered a form of trolling.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Or speed feat that compares to Cap moving fast enough to chase cars and planes.

I'll be honest with you: he wasn't running at super human speeds, Darthy, when he did both of those chases. It's too bad: he's not any faster than a well-trained athlete.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah great debate

It wasn't much. It just comprised of your throwing a fit, ignoring feats, and you demanding arguments be recycled.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And your video proves nothing for you except your wanking of Rorschach.

Well, actually, it proved my points and showed you were ignoring feats.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was crapping his pants in that scene where the police had the building surrounded.

If you think that, then you did not comprehend what was happening, at all.

I'll explain it to you: he was raging because he realized he was tricked and his investigation into the real perp behind all the happenings was going to get away with it. Rorschach's journey was coming to an end.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He needed to use flame throwers and all sorts of weapons just to get out of the building where in the confined space he didn't have to face more than a couple of cops at a time.

Yeah, the cops didn't have body armor, batons, and fully-automatic guns or anything. Rorscach obviously had a full-fledged flame-thrower and it wasn't a small aerosol can with a a few matches:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/flamethrower.png

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/flamethrower2.png



Oh, and, he did not face anymore than 2 cops at a time: all of them definitely did not have their guns pointed out him and no more than 2 were trying to subdue him at any given time (hint, there are only 2 cops in the screenshot, below):

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/howmanycops.png


BTW, all of that is sarcasm.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He never sent anyone flying through the air with one hit the way Cap does.

You're right: that cop jumped back and smashed himself against three cops (oops, I meant just 1 cop because there was only 2 cops trying to subdue him, at a time, remember?)

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/howmanycops.png


and knock them all (oops, just one) back against the wall just from force of his impact:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/wall.png





That was all also sarcasm.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And he was held by 2 or 3 people at most.

You're right: it took only 2 or 3 cops to subdue him.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/cops3.png

That was also sarcasm.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your video is proving your own case completely false,

Yes, clearly, my video proved me "false".

That was sarcasm.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
so I'm not sure why you posted it.

Yes, there was no point to posting that video, at all.

That was sarcasm.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Why don't you post Rorschach's apparent strength feats that compares to Caps??

I did not do that already.

That was sarcasm.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh right, because they don't actually exist.

You're right, they don't actually exist.


That was sarcasm.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah like I said nice debate

Indeed: you have utterly destroyed my arguments.

That was sarcasm, too.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You haven't. But it makes it more dramatic if you think you did, right?

Lol just on the last page:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER



Here for the hundreth time:

Cap lifts a motorbike and 3 women easily for an extended period of time. Cap punches through a Submarine. Cap sends people flying with a slight hit. Where on Earth did Comedian, Ozy, Rorscach, Nightowl show strength even close to that. And where did any of them show movement fast enough to chase cars and even planes??



Originally posted by dadudemon
It's unnecessary for me to mention anything that hasn't already been posted.

Because you can't prove it. There's nothing on Rorsachach's or NiteOwl strength feats that even come close to approaching Cap's.


Originally posted by dadudemon
If I were to repeat the same point over and over (that has already been posted in this thread multiple times), that could be a considered a form of trolling.

Nothing was posted that clearly stood out as competing with Cap's strength feats. Your making excuses. Either I or other posters have posted Cap's strength feats on almost every page now. Whilst these apparent Rorschach strength feats which are on the same level are no where to be seen.

I just quoted a few of Cap's strength feats for you again. It took about 5 seconds.

So I ask you one last time, and if you don't answer I'll accept your concession. What is Rorschach's greatest lifting feat? And we will compare it Cap lifting 3 women on a motorcycle for an extended period with absolute ease.

(See that, I just mentioned his lifting feat which none of the Watchmen(besides Dr. M) can match. Again! Lol. Whilst all you will give is, it's been posted. Yes this miraculous non-existent lifting feat of Rorschach's is apparently on the thread somewhere. And it's so good, you can't even once repeat how great it is.



Originally posted by dadudemon
I'll be honest with you: he wasn't running at super human speeds, Darthy, when he did both of those chases. It's too bad: he's not any faster than a well-trained athlete.


Oh there's no hope here. No hope at all.






Originally posted by dadudemon
I'll explain it to you: he was raging because he realized he was tricked and his investigation into the real perp behind all the happenings was going to get away with it. Rorschach's journey was coming to an end.

Lol And the wank fest increases. The guy was shitting his pants because he knew he was royally screwed. And guess what? He was. He got humiliated by being unmasked on public TV. Whilst held by an amazing 2 cops who apparently have the strength to hold someone with the same strength as Caps.



Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, the cops didn't have body armor, batons, and fully-automatic guns or anything. Rorscach obviously had a full-fledged flame-thrower and it wasn't a small aerosol can with a a few matches:

Oh the cops were had guns and batons. Wow I'm really impressed someone who apparently has superhuman strength and amazing combat skills beat those odds using any weapon he could get hold of.


Originally posted by dadudemon
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/flamethrower.png

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/flamethrower2.png

You don't think using an aerosol to make a flame thrower is a pretty desperate move??



Originally posted by dadudemon
Oh, and, he did not face anymore than 2 cops at a time: all of them definitely did not have their guns pointed out him and no more than 2 were trying to subdue him at any given time (hint, there are only 2 cops in the screenshot, below):

Lol It was a confined space with most of them standing behind each other. And still Rorschach had to jump out of the window to escape them. Another desperate move. That scene was full of desperate moves.

Once he was surrounded we saw what happened. He was finished.




Originally posted by dadudemon
BTW, all of that is sarcasm.


Not really working for anyone who's seen that scene, and seen what Cap can do.



Originally posted by dadudemon
You're right: that cop jumped back and smashed himself against three cops (oops, I meant just 1 cop because there was only 2 cops trying to subdue him, at a time, remember?)

LOL. He just kicked him down the stairs! The cops were behind each other. Since when do you need Super Human strength to do that LOL. Let alone Strength even approaching Cap's level?!






Originally posted by dadudemon
You're right: it took only 2 or 3 cops to subdue him.

Count how many men had him pinned down when they publicly humiliated him by taking his mask off. And he was crying LOL.

And before that he was hitting them one by one. Show me where any of them went flying through the air the way Cap sends them flying. Hint: None of them did.





Originally posted by dadudemon
Indeed: you have utterly destroyed my arguments.



It's pretty easy when your posting all the evidence against your arguments yourself HaHaHa