Why Does The US Have Some Many Agencys?

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Colossus-Big C
Department Of Defence
CIA
FBI
Homeland Security
Secretary Of Defence
Anti-Terrorism

All of these do similiar jobs, would it be better if just one agency did all that shit? Or reduce it to just two that covers all those areas(which are not that different)
I have heard some of those dont even share information with each other.

Im no expert . this is just opinion.

What about the Navy and Marines?

Symmetric Chaos
No good comes of combining agencies for the hell of it. They need to be doing very similar things. For the most part these ones aren't.


DOD = Everything Military, including the Army, Navy, and Air Force (the Secretary of Defense is the head of them whole thing)
Self explanatory. Already an enormous department.

CIA = Foreign Intelligence Gathering
FBI = Domestic Intelligence Gathering
Those two are completely different from legal and practical standpoints.

DHS = Non-military Domestic Defense
Lots of boring administrative and legal stuff plus recovery from all kinds of disasters in the states. Technically they're anti-terrorism too, but I get the impression that the FBI and CIA are more important. Like the DOD this is already an enormous department.

Digi
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
All of these do similiar jobs, would it be better if just one agency did all that shit? Or reduce it to just two that covers all those areas(which are not that different)
I have heard some of those dont even share information with each other.

Im no expert . this is just opinion.

Work at any medium-to-large company for a while, and then tell me this is a good idea. Increasing efficiency is always good. Arbitrary mergers are not.

Bardock42
Honestly I agree with the OP. There should just be one agency...the agency of stuff.

And it's one of the three I would get rid off if I was president.

Lestov16
I believe it is the FBI CounterTerrorism Division who are the front line counterterrorists (when it comes to domestic terrorism)

Colossus-Big C
but i thought FBI deals with domestic threats and not foreign??

The CIA should do that

inimalist
you want the CIA to have more power?

Colossus-Big C
they really dont have any power. there supposed to collect intellegence. thats it.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
they really dont have any power. there supposed to collect intellegence. thats it.
...they control the Drone program.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Digi
Work at any medium-to-large company for a while, and then tell me this is a good idea. Increasing efficiency is always good. Arbitrary mergers are not.

I am working for a "Fortune 50" company and I think it's a good idea. I have worked for fortune 100 companies for the last decade.



FBI - National Police Force.


But what do they actually focus on doing?

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate

1. Terrorism. CIA, DoD, and the DHS also cover this.
2. Counterintelligence. CIA and DoD do this.
3. Cyber Crime. DHS, DoD, and CIA do this.
4. Public Corruption. Definitely a DoJ function so this one is good.
5. Civil Rights. Definitely a DoJ function, so this is good, too.
6. Organized Crime. Overlaps, quite largely, with what local and state law-enforcement does.
7. White-Collar Crime. Overlaps largely with what local and state law enforcement does.
8. Violent Crime and Major Thefts. Overlaps largely with what local and state law-enforcement does. However, the "Indian reservation" jurisdiction is necessary.



So is there hope of consolidating the FBI's functions? Sure.



CIA:

Mission
The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) is an independent US Government agency responsible for providing national security intelligence to senior US policymakers.

https://www.cia.gov/


So, pretty much, the CIA could be dissolved, immediately. It has been threatened multiple times, over the years, of being dismantled. Pretty crappy that I hold this opinion because I may end up working for them, one day.


NSA:

The NSA/CSS core missions are to protect U.S. national security systems and to produce foreign signals intelligence information.

Could be dissolved and responsabilities taken over by the any of the armed services branches (having their own security programs in place). However, it is probably better than the NSA exist rather than not. But, some people do not like the idea of so much secrecy. They keep stuff secret...and they do counter-cyberterrorism work. So maybe we could shift the focus from the FBI to the NSA?


DHS:

This one should be dissolved, immediately. No question about it. It was one of the biggest messes. My coworker's father is one of director's there and he visits our office every now and then. Tells us stories about how assbackwards it is there. Just a mess.


So I would dissolve DHS and the CIA. Remove tons of the FBI's functions. And keep the NSA. I would give more work to the NSA.

Ushgarak
Actually, the US has often been historically regarded as being over-agencied. They spend a lot of time in turf wars with each other and their co-operation is generally close to zero. You end in in situations where you have the FBI and the DEA and the ATF all scrabbling over areas where just about every country entrusts the job to just one organisation, and then you give your darn customs agency (which, amazingly, you have TWO of) the exact same sort of counter-intelligence powers as well and they get thrown into the law enforcement mess. You pay out huge amounts in tax dollars for the complex bureaucracy of each organisation and to absolutely no greater effect on the crimes concerned (and this is after the DEA was already merged from competing agencies beforehand). Just give it all to the darn FBI, and let customs just do customs work.

During Vietnam, the DEA and CIA were pretty much on opposite sides. It crossed the line from turf war to virtual shooting match. It's madness, and the plethora of organisations doing similar jobs encourages it.

The very reason the DHS was set up was in recognition of the fact that there were too many competing agencies doing the same sort of job and not co-operating at all- but it does start to look like that it's just adding to the confusion rather than rectifying it.

Colossus-Big C
Is it true that the CIA have traded drugs for weapons on many occasions?
I understand why the CIA and DEA hate each other.
http://gangstersout.blogspot.com/2009/12/dea-vs-cia.html

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by dadudemon
I am working for a "Fortune 50" company and I think it's a good idea. I have worked for fortune 100 companies for the last decade.



FBI - National Police Force.


But what do they actually focus on doing?

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate

1. Terrorism. CIA, DoD, and the DHS also cover this.
2. Counterintelligence. CIA and DoD do this.
3. Cyber Crime. DHS, DoD, and CIA do this.
4. Public Corruption. Definitely a DoJ function so this one is good.
5. Civil Rights. Definitely a DoJ function, so this is good, too.
6. Organized Crime. Overlaps, quite largely, with what local and state law-enforcement does.
7. White-Collar Crime. Overlaps largely with what local and state law enforcement does.
8. Violent Crime and Major Thefts. Overlaps largely with what local and state law-enforcement does. However, the "Indian reservation" jurisdiction is necessary.



So is there hope of consolidating the FBI's functions? Sure.



CIA:

Mission
The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) is an independent US Government agency responsible for providing national security intelligence to senior US policymakers.

https://www.cia.gov/


So, pretty much, the CIA could be dissolved, immediately. It has been threatened multiple times, over the years, of being dismantled. Pretty crappy that I hold this opinion because I may end up working for them, one day.


NSA:

The NSA/CSS core missions are to protect U.S. national security systems and to produce foreign signals intelligence information.

Could be dissolved and responsabilities taken over by the any of the armed services branches (having their own security programs in place). However, it is probably better than the NSA exist rather than not. But, some people do not like the idea of so much secrecy. They keep stuff secret...and they do counter-cyberterrorism work. So maybe we could shift the focus from the FBI to the NSA?


DHS:

This one should be dissolved, immediately. No question about it. It was one of the biggest messes. My coworker's father is one of director's there and he visits our office every now and then. Tells us stories about how assbackwards it is there. Just a mess.


So I would dissolve DHS and the CIA. Remove tons of the FBI's functions. And keep the NSA. I would give more work to the NSA. This

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by dadudemon
I am working for a "Fortune 50" company and I think it's a good idea. I have worked for fortune 100 companies for the last decade.

And yet you don't actually propose any mergers that I can see, just eliminating everything that isn't the NSA.

(countdown to a hysterical freakout by dadude begins now)

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. Terrorism. CIA, DoD, and the DHS also cover this.
2. Counterintelligence. CIA and DoD do this.
3. Cyber Crime. DHS, DoD, and CIA do this.
4. Public Corruption. Definitely a DoJ function so this one is good.
5. Civil Rights. Definitely a DoJ function, so this is good, too.
6. Organized Crime. Overlaps, quite largely, with what local and state law-enforcement does.
7. White-Collar Crime. Overlaps largely with what local and state law enforcement does.
8. Violent Crime and Major Thefts. Overlaps largely with what local and state law-enforcement does. However, the "Indian reservation" jurisdiction is necessary.

1 - I agree that can be left to the DoD.
2 - Yeah, DoD and NSA
4, 5 - Definately should be a DoJ job.

The issue with 3, 6, 7, and 8 is that the FBI is federal agency which has inherent value. A bunch of disorganized, underfunded local cops aren't going to do much to stop crimes that stretch across the country. I could see transforming the FBI into an advisory and legal agency with no armed agents but the fact that it is tasked with looking at the whole nation is important, otherwise you leave the door open to any number of crimes with vague jurisdiction.

Originally posted by dadudemon
So, pretty much, the CIA could be dissolved, immediately. It has been threatened multiple times, over the years, of being dismantled. Pretty crappy that I hold this opinion because I may end up working for them, one day.

Why remove the nation's foreign intelligence service? You didn't provide any justification.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This one should be dissolved, immediately. No question about it. It was one of the biggest messes. My coworker's father is one of director's there and he visits our office every now and then. Tells us stories about how assbackwards it is there. Just a mess.

That means eliminating the country's disaster relief programs and the entire customs service. I think those, at least, would have to be moved somewhere before cutting the DHS.

0mega Spawn
what handles people who tear the tags off matresses

dadudemon
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And yet you don't actually propose any mergers that I can see, just eliminating everything that isn't the NSA.

(countdown to a hysterical freakout by dadude begins now)

I did propose mergers. The mergers I proposed was responsibility shifting (merging roles) and agency elimination.

And the second statement is actually trolling. You should probably avoid those. But I do get amusement out of them. thumb up


Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
1 - I agree that can be left to the DoD.
2 - Yeah, DoD and NSA
4, 5 - Definately should be a DoJ job.

lol

Looks like we agree on quite a few points.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The issue with 3, 6, 7, and 8 is that the FBI is federal agency which has inherent value. A bunch of disorganized, underfunded local cops aren't going to do much to stop crimes that stretch across the country. I could see transforming the FBI into an advisory and legal agency with no armed agents but the fact that it is tasked with looking at the whole nation is important, otherwise you leave the door open to any number of crimes with vague jurisdiction.

The idea of local law enforcement not being able to take on large criminal organizations is false (I know that is not your idea, I am just speaking against one of the justifications that people give).

The idea of the FBI is a national level police force. But they could be reduced to a regulatory/advisory position for interstate crime like you suggested (and something I would want, anyway).



Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Why remove the nation's foreign intelligence service? You didn't provide any justification.

In the GDF, I did not think I needed to outline why the CIA could be dissolved especially when I mentioned the congressional threats of dissolution. However, since you asked, I will provide.

1. The CIA is a Cold War Agency. It was created with specific goals and functions during the Cold War. That may have been necessary at the time, honestly. But is the existence still justified in the absence of a true cold war?
2. The CIA seems to have more than just an "intelligence gathering" function. Why were they directly involved in the Bay of Pigs? Why were they allowed to overthrow Iran's government? One word: Watergate. Why were they allowed to give weapons to Iran-Contra Affair?
3. Much of what the CIA does is also done by the FBI, DoD, DHS, and NSA.
4. The CIA actually has a military section. Well, some areas have been successful with their efforts.
5. It is a black hole of money, intelligence (the military kind), and people.
6. I had to google search his name but I found it: Daniel Patrick Moynihan advocated the dissolution of the CIA and even introduced two bills (iirc...it may have been just one). Here is an article about it I just found:
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/2005/12/20/case-for-abolishing-cia/qf6



Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That means eliminating the country's disaster relief programs and the entire customs service. I think those, at least, would have to be moved somewhere before cutting the DHS.

DHS can be dissolved and some of the functions turned over to existing institutions (which includes local law enforcement). We did not have ICE before 2002 but it can easily be its own agency (it's huge). We had FEMA before 2002. I think FEMA, if you want something like that, should be improved/overhauled. Additionally, many of the subsections of DHS existed before DHS. I could be wrong but the idea of DHS was to combine all of those groups to have better function (mostly because of how fractured and uncommunicative the agencies were with each other, as Ushgarak pointed out). Do their solution was to create a mega-agency that combined their efforts. That's why there is so much...mess.

Furthermore, here is a snippit of the abstract of a paper written by Professors John Mueller and Mark G. Stewart:






http://polisci.osu.edu/faculty/jmueller/MID11TSM.PDF




Do you think we should keep DHS, CIA, and all of the current functions of the FBI?

inimalist
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
they really dont have any power. there supposed to collect intellegence. thats it.

MKUltra

Originally posted by dadudemon
2. The CIA seems to have more than just an "intelligence gathering" function. Why were they directly involved in the Bay of Pigs? Why were they allowed to overthrow Iran's government? One word: Watergate. Why were they allowed to give weapons to Iran-Contra Affair?

to be fair, the whole Iran-Contra thing was a prolonging of support for the anti-Sandinista militias in Nicaragua, which was the baby of Oliver North and No Such Agency.

I'm not sure if they moved it to the CIA after congress forbid direct weapon sales to the militias, but for sure it was the NSA who had oversight and operational control.

EDIT: shoot, I have confused the NSA with the National Security Council.

dadudemon
Originally posted by inimalist
MKUltra



to be fair, the whole Iran-Contra thing was a prolonging of support for the anti-Sandinista militias in Nicaragua, which was the baby of Oliver North and No Such Agency.

I'm not sure if they moved it to the CIA after congress forbid direct weapon sales to the militias, but for sure it was the NSA who had oversight and operational control.

EDIT: shoot, I have confused the NSA with the National Security Council.

I could have sworn that the CIA sold some missiles during that affair?

I seriously do not have the will-power to google search this. But they sold some missiles to Iran. I do not know if they actually delivered them (it was Digiorno).

inimalist
for sure they did, but it was part of North's program. I don't know the nitty gritty (North had those documents burnt in fact), but I'm pretty sure they did it at the behest of the NSC

Robtard
Oliver North was a patsy to cover up the Reagan/Bush connection.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Robtard
Oliver North was a patsy to cover up the Reagan connection.

I read about that theory. Interesting avenue.

inimalist
idk, my take on it, at least from Gary Webb's book Dark Alliance, is that North did a lot of this either totally independent of Regan or with very little oversight.

could totally be wrong though

Robtard
I edited, should have said Reagan/Bush. It was them, imo. I find it hard to believe North could do so much without something being leaked to the Oval Office.

Bush also went on to pardon those indicted/convicted. Hmm...

dadudemon
Originally posted by inimalist
idk, my take on it, at least from Gary Webb's book Dark Alliance, is that North did a lot of this either totally independent of Regan or with very little oversight.

could totally be wrong though

The latter: that was one of the biggest complaints against groups like the CIA, during that time period. They had too much freedom and little to no accountability. That's largely where the congressional and public backslash against the CIA came from (in the 80s and early 90s): shit like the Iran-Contra Affair.


Originally posted by Robtard
Bush also went on to pardon those indicted/convicted. Hmm...

Smells of a tin-foil hat conspiracy theory. I did not know that Bush (Sr.) did that.

Robtard
Originally posted by dadudemon

Smells of a tin-foil hat conspiracy theory. I did not know that Bush (Sr.) did that.

Bush's last controversial act in office was his pardon of six former government employees implicated in the Iran-Contra scandal on December 24, 1992, most prominently the former secretary of defense, Caspar Weinberger. Weinberger had been scheduled to stand trial on January 5, 1993, for allegedly lying to Congress regarding his knowledge of arms sales to Iran and concealing 1,700 pages of his personal diary detailing discussions with other officials about the arms sales.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/George_H._W._Bush#Pardons

Someone like Oliver North does not sneak past the former Director of the CIA and the standing VP. I doubt Bush was keeping it from Reagan as well.

Edit: Damn it, if had time I would have made a "One does not simply sneak past George Bush Sr." pic with Boromir instead.

Mindset
Because America is the greatest country in the universe.

Oliver North
Originally posted by Robtard
Someone like Oliver North does not sneak past the former Director of the CIA and the standing VP. I doubt Bush was keeping it from Reagan as well.

I'm not sure he would have had to sneak. I get the impression Reagan was like "fight the commies in Nicaragua" and gave North the power he needed to do it.

Didn't realize Bush was a former CIA director, however North worked through his own people. There are stories in Dark Alliance where Webb describes CIA operatives who had no idea about North's operations with the Contras (though, admittedly, these aren't the director).

idk, my impression was always that it was North's baby, regardless of how much Reagan knew.

Omega Vision
Lol, ini, I didn't recognize you at first.

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