The Furies/Kindly Ones Vs Shuma Gorath

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by pym-ftw
LT has existed in 616 reality, strange said if he entered 616 after absorbing Mr Gorath's power it would collapse that reality

I know its a stretch, but if true he would be over LT, in at least aura

Granted I assume LT to be able to collapse realities

Sol's Anvil was stated by the Council of Reeds as being a weapon capable of destroying a reality , so I guess its above the LT now ?
Same can be said about the Celestial Nullifier .

LT's M-Bodies exist in all realities . And Strange with Gorath's power was only capable of collapsing (an unspecified number of) galaxies , not the entire universe .

Its possible to destroy an M-Body cuz they are formed from the extradimensional Fractals from the dimension of Manifestations . The concept(that the M-Body hosts) itself can't be destroyed . To my knowledge only PR Beyonder has completely wiped out a concept(Death) from existence .

CortSether

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
And Strange with Gorath's power was only capable of collapsing (an unspecified number of) galaxies , not the entire universe .

Strange after absorbing Shuma's power was stated to be able to destroy galaxies just by being present, it wasn't near his total power output. In Steve Englehart's mind, Shuma-Gorath was certainly capable of destroying a universe, considering it's stated more than once within his narration that the entire cosmos would fall if Shuma succeeded in defeating Strange.

leonidas

the furies can only be called upon if the offender has done something to warrant their being summoned. then they will remain after the person and not give up. it seems they would have been unable to kill morpheus in the dreaming though, had he not willingly left and while gone, allowed the furies to enter. morpheus is the absolute ruler of the dreaming though and a concept to boot. not sure how truly supreme shuma is in his world. there is a chance that if he is truly supreme, they would not be able to enter. if they DID get in though, i don't see anyway shuma could stop them from killing him.

CortSether

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't see anyway shuma could stop them from killing him.

Having more personal power under his control and being immune to death means Shuma's chances of getting killed by the Furies are none.

leonidas

more personal power is debateable, but......shuma is immune to death....? proof?

zopzop

Originally posted by leonidas
shuma is immune to death....? proof?
Already provided in the Thanos with the IG vs the Endless thread. Shuma Gorath is one of the Many Angled Ones (and his name was invoked during the Necropsy Ritual), they cant' die but they can get wrecked................badly.

Prep-Man

You don't have to kill something to win.

leonidas

Originally posted by zopzop
Already provided in the Thanos with the IG vs the Endless thread. Shuma Gorath is one of the Many Angled Ones (and his name was invoked during the Necropsy Ritual), they cant' die but they can get wrecked................badly.

whoa, i must have missed that. i know you mentioned his name was invoked but i didn't realize he was revealed as one of the mao. doesn't he have a dimension all his own somewhere? and didn't you say death was reintroduced in the cancerverse? or wasn't that his native dimension? or did death prove>shuma?

hrm. gonna have to read TI i guess.

zopzop

Originally posted by leonidas
whoa, i must have missed that. i know you mentioned his name was invoked but i didn't realize he was revealed as one of the mao. doesn't he have a dimension all his own somewhere? and didn't you say death was reintroduced in the cancerverse? or wasn't that his native dimension? or did death prove>shuma?

hrm. gonna have to read TI i guess.
Death>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the Entire Cancerverse and it's Gods (the Many Angled Ones). The only way they even banished/"killed" Death was through the Necropsy Ritual AND the fact that there was something odd about the Cancerverse (even before the ritual took place, I need to look this up).

leonidas

Originally posted by zopzop
Death>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the Entire Cancerverse and it's Gods (the Many Angled Ones). The only way they even banished/"killed" Death was through the Necropsy Ritual AND the fact that there was something odd about the Cancerverse (even before the ritual took place, I need to look this up).

that seems....odd. so was that some form of retcon then? he'd always been considered a demon, or OLD ONE from what i remember. i'd thought shuma and zom were somewhere around equal (depending on which bit of hyperbole you bought) along with set and chthon and a couple others. and all of them were considered to be threats to eternity (weren't a couple supposed greater than eternity??)

and yet shuma is now<<<<<<<<death. does that lessen all the other 'demons' in turn? wtf was marvel thinking in TI?? it seems to have f'd some things up good.....

zopzop

Originally posted by leonidas
that seems....odd. so was that some form of retcon then? he'd always been considered a demon, or OLD ONE from what i remember. i'd thought shuma and zom were somewhere around equal (depending on which bit of hyperbole you bought) along with set and chthon and a couple others. and all of them were considered to be threats to eternity (weren't a couple supposed greater than eternity??)

and yet shuma is now<<<<<<<<death. does that lessen all the other 'demons' in turn? wtf was marvel thinking in TI?? it seems to have f'd some things up good.....
No demon lord is a threat to Eternity or Death or Infinity or Oblivion. Where did you get that idea from? Are you referring the the Chthon/Hank Pym/Eternity incident? That never happened. It was Loki trolling Pym.

The Old Ones are the Many Angled Ones, just using a different name. They stole that from HP Lovecraft and his writings.

leonidas

Originally posted by zopzop
No demon lord is a threat to Eternity or Death or Infinity or Oblivion. Where did you get that idea from? Are you referring the the Chthon/Hank Pym/Eternity incident? That never happened. It was Loki trolling Pym.

The Old Ones are the Many Angled Ones, just using a different name. They stole that from HP Lovecraft and his writings.

hmm i thought that zom supposedly needed to be contained by eternity and dormmy at one point. and clearly dormmy has been a threat to eternity by himself. and didn't eternity thank pym himself for saving him or was that shown to be nothing later on?

and i thought even the vishanti were powerless to stop shuma?? seems marvel's demonology is as confusing as its cosmology........

zopzop

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm i thought that zom supposedly needed to be contained by eternity and dormmy at one point. and clearly dormmy has been a threat to eternity by himself. and didn't eternity thank pym himself for saving him or was that shown to be nothing later on?

and i thought even the vishanti were powerless to stop shuma?? seems marvel's demonology is as confusing as its cosmology........
Well Dormammu chained Zom (how he did it was never shown on panel) then Eternity had to step in and imprison Zom in an amphora outside all space and time because he was still a threat. Then the LT stepped in and incinerated him.

Dormammu really isn't a threat to Eternity at all. He only has a chance when something extraordinary happens and Eternity is weaken somehow (see most recent incident involving these two).

Eternity never thanked Pym for saving him from Chthon, it was Loki trolling Hank. I got the scans to prove it if you want to see them.

The Vishanti weren't powerless to stop Shuma Gorath.

leonidas

hmm, guess there's a lot of forum myths floating around then. you should do some sort of demon hierarchy or something, with loads of scans.

zopzop

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, guess there's a lot of forum myths floating around then. you should do some sort of demon hierarchy or something, with loads of scans.
I don't want to derail this thread but IMHO Set is THE premier demon in the MU. His fights against Classic Atum, his humiliation of Gaea (twice), and the Cosmic Cube draining incident make it hard to argue against him.

leonidas

i remember the cube incident (was that the serpent crown arc??) but i was always under the impression that shuma was basically invincible in his realm, and zom was somewhere around eternity and eternity needed help to subdue him. i haven't looked into the history of these guys in a long while though but shuma seems to have taken a definite step backwards with the TI stuff.

i thought the vishanti tried to get rid of shuma but couldn't? and wasn't it revealed in some issue that shuma's powers AWAY from his realm were far>>>>mephisto and satannish?? or was this more hyperbole?

zopzop

Originally posted by leonidas
i remember the cube incident (was that the serpent crown arc??) but i was always under the impression that shuma was basically invincible in his realm, and zom was somewhere around eternity and eternity needed help to subdue him. i haven't looked into the history of these guys in a long while though but shuma seems to have taken a definite step backwards with the TI stuff.

i thought the vishanti tried to get rid of shuma but couldn't? and wasn't it revealed in some issue that shuma's powers AWAY from his realm were far>>>>mephisto and satannish?? or was this more hyperbole?

The Cube Incident was a few years before the Atlantis Attacks storyline.

Regarding Shuma being invincible in his realm, see the Dr. Strange/Arioch incident stick out tongue

(and here comes Cort). Why do you say Gorath took a step back during the TI incident? If anything it was a plus for him. Being included as a Many Angled one did wonders for his demonic "street cred". The Vishanti "fought against the unspeakable evil of Shuma Gorath" and that's all that was said about that.

Regarding Gorath/Mephiso/Satannish it's for sure hyperbole unless proven otherwise. Mephisto and Satannish have had reality threatening fights, Mephisto has retconned 616 reality, Mephisto has fought Galactus to a standstill in his realm, etc... Those feats and fights easily match and even exceed anything Gorath has done on panel.

CortSether

Originally posted by leonidas
i thought the vishanti tried to get rid of shuma but couldn't? and wasn't it revealed in some issue that shuma's powers AWAY from his realm were far>>>>mephisto and satannish?? or was this more hyperbole?

The Vishanti state themselves on more than one occasion that they had fought Shuma-Gorath long ago. Considering that Shuma-Gorath has been stated/shown to only have been banished by Sise-Neg, Dr. Strange, and Crom (using the Iron Bound Books of Shuma-Gorath), then it's safe to say that the Vishanti couldn't do anything to Gorath. That's further evidenced when Kaluu tells Strange after his fight with Shuma that Agamotto himself, a member of the Vishanti, had not defeated a lord of chaos.

Regarding what's said about Shuma being greater than Mephisto and Satannish, it was stated pretty clearly by Kaluu as he was dying just by being surrounded in the energy of one of Shuma's lower realms.

The degree to which Kaluu measures Shuma to be > Mephisto and Satannish may be hyperbole, as he says the difference is like mice (Mephisto/Satannish) within a temple (Shuma-Gorath). But the mere fact that Kaluu was dying just by being in a lower realm of Shuma's shows quite clearly that Shuma is superior even though the exact degree may have been exaggerated. Kaluu is a master black magician who rivaled the Ancient One and knew just about everything there is to know about black magic - he's even utilized spells/knowledge from Chthon's Darkhold - and it's not like he of all people would be incapable of determining which magic user is superior to another.

Something to consider is that by the time Strange reached the realm of Arioch, Shuma's lieutenant, Strange had already surpassed the power he held at any time prior, thanks to the magic potential taken from Victoria Bentley, eldritch energy from the Great Old One Ghaszaszh Nyirh, and black magic tutoring from Kaluu - and even then he would not have had a chance against Shuma had he not merged with a god beforehand.

zopzop

Originally posted by CortSether
The Vishanti state themselves on more than one occasion that they had fought Shuma-Gorath long ago. Considering that Shuma-Gorath has been stated/shown to only have been banished by Sise-Neg, Dr. Strange, and Crom (using the Iron Bound Books of Shuma-Gorath), then it's safe to say that the Vishanti couldn't do anything to Gorath. That's further evidenced when Kaluu tells Strange after his fight with Shuma that Agamotto himself, a member of the Vishanti, had not defeated a lord of chaos.

Regarding what's said about Shuma being greater than Mephisto and Satannish, it was stated pretty clearly by Kaluu as he was dying just by being surrounded in the energy of one of Shuma's lower realms.

The degree to which Kaluu measures Shuma to be > Mephisto and Satannish may be hyperbole, as he says the difference is like mice (Mephisto/Satannish) within a temple (Shuma-Gorath). But the mere fact that Kaluu was dying just by being in a lower realm of Shuma's shows quite clearly that Shuma is superior even though the exact degree may have been exaggerated. Kaluu is a master black magician who rivaled the Ancient One and knew just about everything there is to know about black magic - he's even utilized spells/knowledge from Chthon's Darkhold - and it's not like he of all people would be incapable of determining which magic user is superior to another.

Something to consider is that by the time Strange reached the realm of Arioch, Shuma's lieutenant, Strange had already surpassed the power he held at any time prior, thanks to the magic potential taken from Victoria Bentley, eldritch energy from the Great Old One Ghaszaszh Nyirh, and black magic tutoring from Kaluu - and even then he would not have had a chance against Shuma had he not merged with a god beforehand.

And then what happened Cort? What happened to Gorath? What did Dr. Strange do to him in his own realm? How has he been portrayed since?

Almost everything you posted is either taken out of context, hyperbole or meaningless (especially the Vishanti example). They said they didn't care what happens to the mortal realm anymore. Nowhere was it implied that they were powerless against him.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Shuma-Gorath/shumagorathvishanti1.jpg

EDIT -
Had to include that tidbit.

EDIT -
The links

CortSether

Originally posted by zopzop
And then what happened Cort? What happened to Gorath? What did Dr. Strange do to him in his own realm? How has he been portrayed since?

Shuma struck Strange/Arioch, causing him to start turning into Shuma, and from there Strange was able to use Shuma's voodoo Earth and shatter his body with it before impaling himself. So Shuma's own energy was turned against him after Strange had started to become Shuma, essentially.

I know you think you've got a point here, but you don't. We've been over this before.

And Shuma's never been shown at full power since that point, there's always been a plot circumstance preventing it - whether Shuma was at full power or not in TI is unknown since he was only called by name and we probably saw just a few of his tentacles. There's also never been an official retcon of Shuma, if that's what you're implying. Actually, Marvel's bio stat rankings for Shuma have increased from what they were originally marked as.

Originally posted by zopzop
Almost everything you posted is either taken out of context, hyperbole or meaningless (especially the Vishanti example). They said they didn't care what happens to the mortal realm anymore. Nowhere was it implied that they were powerless against him.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/...athvishanti.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/...thvishanti1.jpg

Oh please, I'm the one putting things in context whereas you're just giving blanket statements and ignoring context because of your Shuma dislike. It's stated very clearly that the Vishanti fought Shuma. It's also stated/shown in Shuma's bio and on panels that Shuma's only been banished/defeated by a select few - none of them being the Vishanti, and we also have Kaluu's statement that a member of the Vishanti couldn't even defeat a lord of chaos. Logic dictates that if the Vishanti fought Shuma, yet it's never said that Shuma was banished/defeated by the Vishanti, then that means the Vishanti couldn't do anything to Shuma.

You always derp so hard when discussing Shuma I wonder why you even try anymore.

zopzop

Originally posted by CortSether
Shuma struck Strange/Arioch, causing him to start turning into Shuma, and from there Strange was able to use Shuma's voodoo Earth and shatter his body with it before impaling himself. So Shuma's own energy was turned against him after Strange had started to become Shuma, essentially.

I know you think you've got a point here, but you don't. We've been over this before.

And Shuma's never been shown at full power since that point, there's always been a plot circumstance preventing it - whether Shuma was at full power or not in TI is unknown since he was only called by name and we probably saw just a few of his tentacles. There's also never been an official retcon of Shuma, if that's what you're implying. Actually, Marvel's bio stat rankings for Shuma have increased from what they were originally marked as.
Bios mean nothing so you got nothing there.

And I do have a point. The fact is Strange wtfpwned Arioch then wtfpwned Gorath, in his own realm and KILLED him (who cares if he reformed later, all demons do that from Mephisto to Dormammu to Set). How pathetic is it when Dr. Strange owns you like that? He wrecked his sh|t so bad, Gorath was never the same since!
laughing

zopzop

Originally posted by CortSether
Oh please, I'm the one putting things in context whereas you're just giving blanket statements and ignoring context because of your Shuma dislike. It's stated very clearly that the Vishanti fought Shuma. It's also stated/shown in Shuma's bio and on panels that Shuma's only been banished/defeated by a select few - none of them being the Vishanti, and we also have Kaluu's statement that a member of the Vishanti couldn't even defeat a lord of chaos. Logic dictates that if the Vishanti fought Shuma, yet it's never said that Shuma was banished/defeated by the Vishanti, then that means the Vishanti couldn't do anything to Shuma.

You always derp so hard when discussing Shuma I wonder why you even try anymore.
The statement is meaningless since we don't know how they fought (directly, through proxies, etc...). It was never shown on panel and the Vishanti have never been humiliated like Gorath has....................REPEATEDLY. The Vishanti's lapdog, Dr. Strange, made a FOOL of Gorath! laughing

So put two and two together and you get four.

CortSether

Originally posted by zopzop
The statement is meaningless since we don't know how they fought (directly, through proxies, etc...). It was never shown on panel and the Vishanti have never been humiliated like Gorath has....................REPEATEDLY. The Vishanti's lapdog, Dr. Strange, made a FOOL of Gorath! laughing

So put two and two together and you get four.

Well gee, if we want to go that route then why do you cling to the Zom hyperbole as if it's absolute truth considering the only fight we've seen from him is one against an inexperienced Doctor Strange and he couldn't even catch him until Strange let his guard down thinking he had won laughing out loud

Anyway, the Vishanti combined have also never fought anyone on panel. All there is to go by is Agamotto's fight with Galactus.

You may see S-G's fight with Strange as him being made a fool of, but I don't. Strange was massively more powerful at that point than any other time he had been prior or afterwards, to the point where he could have evaporated/killed Kaluu just by touching him. Strange has had to sacrifice and contend with more in his trials with Shuma than with any other enemy. Shuma also showed that he can destroy the Earth in a second if he wanted to - meanwhile it took HOW MANY years of battle for Set and Atum to just kill off the dinosaur population? rolling on floor laughing

zopzop

Originally posted by CortSether
Well gee, if we want to go that route then why do you cling to the Zom hyperbole as if it's absolute truth considering the only fight we've seen from him is one against an inexperienced Doctor Strange and he couldn't even catch him until Strange let his guard down thinking he had won laughing out loud

That very same Dr. Strange defeated Dormamu by outsmarting him in his realm. But Strange PLUS AO's power couldn't put down a shackled Zom. Zom almost killed Strange till he stopped his assault because he sensed the coming of the LT (Strange even wondered why Zom halted his assault since he had Strange dead to rights). You can't dance around this no matter how hard you try.

And yes Zom has a lot of hyperbole surrounding him. I never denied that unlike you and Gorath.

At least a member of that Triad has an ON PANEL fight against another high end being, unlike Gorath! Gorath was humiliated and wrecked by Agamotto's poodle! laughing

LOL, spoken like a desperate fanboy. The environmental damage that resulted in Set's fight with Demogorge isn't the selling point of that little encounter. The fact that Set stalemated Demorgorge for MILLIONS of years is. The very same Demogorge that killed all the other Elder Gods, that caused Chthon to flee, that killed a sh|tload of Hell Lords and Thunder and Sun Gods like they were insects.

And you telling me Set can't bust a planet if he wanted to? Lay off the crack.

CortSether

Originally posted by zopzop

That very same Dr. Strange defeated Dormamu by outsmarting him in his realm. But Strange PLUS AO's power couldn't put down a shackled Zom. Zom almost killed Strange till he stopped his assault because he sensed the coming of the LT (Strange even wondered why Zom halted his assault since he had Strange dead to rights). You can't dance around this no matter how hard you try.

And yes Zom has a lot of hyperbole surrounding him. I never denied that unlike you and Gorath.

Before Strange even entered Arioch's realm he was already more powerful than his Ancient One empowered self, and he still had to merge with a chaos lord in order to take on Shuma-Gorath, whereas Strange was humiliating Zom, ripping off his forelock and dancing around him like nobody's business getting Zom angry in the process. Zom was only able to 'almost kill Strange' when Strange mistakenly thought that the Ancient One meant taking off Zom's forelock would result in an instant win - that's why Strange stopped in front of him and held out the forelock. Zom couldn't even catch an inexperienced Strange until Strange let his own guard down - you love to dance around that fact.

Agamotto's "poodle" was superior to Agamotto after his merging with various magicks and gods...

Elder Gods have nothing on Shuma so not sure what you're getting at here.

No. I'm saying he can't nonchalantly create a black magic replica within a completely separate dimension that affects the real Earth of 616.

Or in words that you're sure to understand...

He never controlled an entire planet from a separate dimension on panel so he can't do it. eek!

zopzop

Originally posted by CortSether
Before Strange even entered Arioch's realm he was already more powerful than his Ancient One empowered self, and he still had to merge with a chaos lord in order to take on Shuma-Gorath, whereas Strange was humiliating Zom, ripping off his forelock and dancing around him like nobody's business getting Zom angry in the process. Zom was only able to 'almost kill Strange' when Strange mistakenly thought that the Ancient One meant taking off Zom's forelock would result in an instant win - that's why Strange stopped in front of him and held out the forelock. Zom couldn't even catch an inexperienced Strange until Strange let his own guard down - you love to dance around that fact.

Foolish fanboy, the scans are in the respect thread. So the only person you are lying to is yourself. That "inexperienced" Strange defeated Dormammu in his realm. That "inexperienced" Strange had his power plus AO's power and still couldn't do anything to a shackled Zom except evade/dodge attacks. Zom had Strange dead to rights till he sensed the LT's arrival.

LOL, keep telling yourself that. Strange has gone up against Agamotto and he got nowhere. Strange wtfpwned Arioch and Gorath IN THEIR OWN REALMS. Nothing you say or do will remove that humiliation from Gorath and his crew.

The fanboyism has made you brain dead. At least the Elder Gods have some fights/feats under their belt vs other Gods ON PANEL that we can use as a gauge. What does Gorath have?

Set was also never owned by Dr. Strange like Gorath was either so what's your point. Set took over the Squadron Supreme's United States, banished the two most powerful sorcerers and his influence was only exorcised when the Serpent Crown was REMOVED FROM THAT DIMENSION by the Avengers and Gaea amped Professor Imam (that universe's Sorcerer Supreme) and Arcana (the second most powerful sorcerer on that planet) to purge Set's influence from that world.

Sundipped

sleep1 Same arguments. You guys should be getting tired of this by now.

cdtm

Kindly Ones are all hype.

Their big power is guilt tripping someone into killing themselves, basically.

DarkSaint85

I keep misreading this as the Furries/Kindly Ones vs Shuma.

And tentacles keep popping into my mind.

pym-ftw

Kinda off topic,... hyperbole is only hyperbole if it is shown to be false...

Till then its character statements, which in turn can become true or false depending on real quantified feats....

Yeah

Prep-Man

Originally posted by Sundipped
sleep1 Same arguments. You guys should be getting tired of this by now.

I know, right?

leonidas

Originally posted by cdtm
Kindly Ones are all hype.

Their big power is guilt tripping someone into killing themselves, basically.

not really. they were only in the one arc. in that arc they killed several of the denizens of the dreaming even before morpheus left and allowed them to take control. after that, they tore the dreaming apart. the thing is they are not 'killers'. they are more like hounds that harry and never stop until their appointed task has been completed--and there task is always vengeance and their vengeance can't be stopped. they're not just the furies or the kindly ones, they are also the fates and the morrigan. but they must adhere to rules, like the endless themselves must do. and of course they can only perform their duty as vengeance if someone spilled blood of their own family.

morpheus killed his son and so the furies (after lots of manipulation by loki....) were sent to get revenge on morpheus and he could do nothing to stop them. morpheus could have stopped them perhps by killing the mortal who was empowering them, but 'rules' prevented him. 'rules' (set in place by god) play a very large part in the life of the endless (except for death--"that '*****' does whatever she likes" lol ) and that is why these types of matches don't work very well, or do matches with the endless. they don't 'fight' because they are bound by rules. to make these matches possible, we try and suspend the rules that normally bind them, but once that happens what they are TRULY capable of is unknown. the endless aren't hyperbole, they are each enormously powerful. they simply do not take part in things as meaningless as physical confrontation.

anyway, here are just a couple scans, including the scan where the furies say they have taken revenge on UNIVERSES. and the furies do not lie.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/sandman65p24.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/37/sandman66p18.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/sandman06706.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/sandman06803.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/109/sandman06809.jpg/

so, all that being said: if for the sake of the thread we assume shuma killed his son, then i see no way for him to prevent the furies from taking their revenge. it's possible that if he is powerful enough in his own realm (something that no longer seems certain imo) that he could hide out there, but they can still do damage, still hound him until they find a way to complete their task and he could do nothing to stop them.