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http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/61d006bd.jpg

After defeating Palpatine and Luke - Darth Nihilus decides to eat Traya as well, and leaves Dxun.

He wants more Force energy to consume, and wants to seek out the worlds with the most powerful Force-Sensitives, to appease his Hunger.

Deciding that the archives on Malachor V would be a good place to begin his search, he leaves for the world, and soon arrives at his old Teacher's school - the Trayus Academy.

While traversing the bridge that looks over the wide expanse of the dark, shattered world, he pauses, sensing a great Force energy behind him..

He turns - and standing several meters away, a great wide face stares back at him.

"I am Abeloth." She says.

Nihilus says nothing. The empty holes in his mask echoing the silence.

Abeloth's face twists into an expression of amusement. "You are Sith, yes? Who are you? What is your name?"

The wind rips from below the empty expanse of the bridge, and beyond, caressing the hem of Nihilus's black faded robe.

Silence engulfs the distance between them and just as Abeloth starts to inquire again, a voice surprises her, cutting her off.

His strange speech continues for a few moments - the eye holes in his mask seeming to stare straight through her.

Abeloth, annoyed now, narrows her eyes at the Dark Lord.

"I tire of this and -...AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Her whole body suddenly spasms, and a deep-wrenching scream comes up collectively from her - as Nihilus starts to feed on her.

Feeling layers of her very being come away and into the black hole of the very Force itself, which is Nihilus, she screams, loud inhuman screams - which surprisingly are overtaken by the depth and power of Nihilus's voice, which continues on, as she starts to die.

Realizing she was stupid to underestimate a foe unlike any she had ever faced before - she realizes she must do something.

But against an opponent capable of attacking her instantly, and eating her in moments, what can she do?




Setting:
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/8a2c9394.jpg
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/0bfffb1d.jpg

Apparently, Aeloth can't die through any normal means which is why they kept imprisoning here. Supposedly, the only thing capable of killing her once and for all is the dagger of Mortis... So she probably wins.

Although, Nihilus may win if its not to the death.

She's not made of Force energy?


I got bored and decided to make this Thread, because I read a few of her fights with Luke and she seemed like a pathetic Villian-sue, so I figured why not.

Nihilus is also essentially a black hole in the Force, and I heard they used black holes to imprison her, anyway.

Seems like he eats her - and she's trapped and scattered within the void for all eternity.

Not really sure what she is now but she was once mortal. But force drain will likely work on her however, for some reason, when used on her the user of the drain is also weakened as seen with Krayt.

Originally posted by ares834
Not really sure what she is now but she was once mortal. But force drain will likely work on her however, for some reason, when used on her the user of the drain is also weakened as seen with Krayt.

Okay, just did some research.

Apparently she can be killed without the dagger - and the Order just thought she might return again later.

And Krayt doesn't seem like an advanced practitioner of anything - much less any version of Force Drain.
He also has a limited amount of Force energy anyway.



- In contrast we have Darth Nihilus who has the highest form of Drain - and he is at Peak power, meaning he can drain her all day if he needs to.

So, she dies.

I don't see anything else she can do to escape, either.

You're right about Krayt. But if Nihilus's drain does end up hurting himself then I'm not sure how he would be able to keep it up all day.

And she doesn't "die" in the book, her body is destroyed but she is coming back. There are mentions of tentacles appearing incarnating and attacking Jedi.

Now if it's merely to who destroys the other's body first and we assume Nihilus is capable of draining her then it's basically who ever attacks first. Assuming that Abeltoh doesn't hold back of course.

Originally posted by ares834
You're right about Krayt. But if Nihilus's drain does end up hurting himself then I'm not sure how he would be able to keep it up all day.


It won't end up hurting him.

It hurt Krayt because his body is made of flesh, so he took damage, whereas Nihilus is a black hole of Force Energy.

Krayt also can only drain as long as he can fuel the drain with his own power, which is very limited.

This is full-power Nihilus, which means he has just fed on a planet, so he can drain her all day if he needs to.




Originally posted by ares834

And she doesn't "die" in the book, her body is destroyed but she is coming back. There are mentions of tentacles appearing incarnating and attacking Jedi.



Apparently from what I read, Luke traveled to where she was, as an extension of energy, and fought her core being, and killed her in the process.

The Jedi then surmised she could come back one day, so they went to look for the dagger.



Originally posted by ares834

Now if it's merely to who destroys the other's body first and we assume Nihilus is capable of draining her then it's basically who ever attacks first. Assuming that Abeltoh doesn't hold back of course.


Actually, I saw her power in her fights with Luke, and she's kind of pathetic.

Nihilus's TK feats are greater than Luke's, and she was struggling heavily against Luke.

Nihilus wouldn't have a very hard time with her, and simply eat her.

You know what I just realized??

Abeloth is Cosmic Calamari!

Or sushi, or something like that!


She's like one big platter of Cosmic seafood to Nihilus!

It's like Nihilus went to a really good Chinese restaurant or something.

He would be thankful for a filling-meal like this.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
It won't end up hurting him.

It hurt Krayt because his body is made of flesh

What makes you think that?


Originally posted by Battlemaster
Actually, I saw her power in her fights with Luke, and she's kind of pathetic.

She does destroy a city when she gets mad at one point.

'Abeloth herself was also weakened, and in her frustration she unleashed waves of Force energy upon the city. The beings who were near her imploded from the energy, while others who were farther away had their bodies ripped apart. The city itself was severely damaged in the attack—pieces of glass and weapons were sent flying while the buildings collapsed and much of the City of Glass was consumed in fire.' -Wookieepedia

Originally posted by Battlemaster
It won't end up hurting him.

It hurt Krayt because his body is made of flesh, so he took damage, whereas Nihilus is a black hole of Force Energy.

Krayt also can only drain as long as he can fuel the drain with his own power, which is very limited.

This is full-power Nihilus, which means he has just fed on a planet, so he can drain her all day if he needs to.

Why would drain weaken anyone even if they are made of flesh and blood? Malak's drain, for example, boosted him. It could be simply Abeloth's unique nature as the embodiment of chaos and imbalance. Or Krayt could simply be shitty at force drain. I could entertain either view.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Apparently from what I read, Luke traveled to where she was, as an extension of energy, and fought her core being, and killed her in the process.

The Jedi then surmised she could come back one day, so they went to look for the dagger.

Sorta. Luke and Krayt destroy Abeloth in the Beyond Shadows but she still exists.

"Three days ago we were attacked by a tentacle. It materialized out of the Force and attmpted to choke Jedi Saar. When Jedi Arelis ignited his lightsaber, it released Saar and turned to attack Arelis - then just dissolved."

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Nihilus's TK feats are greater than Luke's, and she was struggling heavily against Luke.

Nah. Lifting the Ravager is impressive, but as Gid pointed out numerous times he had the benefit of a dark side nexus. By contrast Luke destroyed a fortress with the force and even more impressive rebuilt it. And, perhaps greatest of all, he used the force to move a miniature black hole.

Regardless, Abeloth melted an entire city of Sith with a single scream. Not sure why Nihilus would survive such an attack (or Luke for that matter).

So is Abeloth the reincarnation of the Joker, or what's up with that?

She does have a big ol Joker smile.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/b/b7/Abeloth.jpg

Edit: V

Nihilus's power isn't actually a drain, it's more of an extremely advanced form of Force Sever, really.

True. Which then brings up the question, can Abeloth be severed from the force?

I am willing to say "yes" based on nothing but Abeloth being a shit-sandwich and disgrace to Lovecraft. estahuh

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nihilus's power isn't actually a drain, it's more of an extremely advanced form of Force Sever, really.
Do you have the quote for this? I looked for it a few days ago and didn't remember where to find it.

Also, you guys are all sorely underestimating Abeloth here. I like N. (a lot) but Abeloth has some impressive aspects as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What makes you think that?


Ah yes, he was energy when he fought Abeloth, right?





Originally posted by Nephthys

She does destroy a city when she gets mad at one point.

'Abeloth herself was also weakened, and in her frustration she unleashed waves of Force energy upon the city. The beings who were near her imploded from the energy, while others who were farther away had their bodies ripped apart. The city itself was severely damaged in the attack—pieces of glass and weapons were sent flying while the buildings collapsed and much of the City of Glass was consumed in fire.' -Wookieepedia


Good point.

Nihilus destroyed a city too, when he attacked Katarr, though - and did kill every living thing on the planet.

But you're right, it's not like I can just underestimate her completely - and actually, I haven't read the entire series, either, so I'm learning new stuff right now.

But she's a shit-sandwich so all of her feats are invalidated.

Also... Well, you could just listen to how Traya describes it.

She describes it as a technique that violently severs a lifeform's connection to the Force, and feeds on the death it causes. Considering how easily he stripped Traya, a fairly powerful practitioner of the Force and herself a skilled user of the same power, of the Force, he seems to have quite a talent for it.

Edit: Yo **** you ares and your wookie magic. estahuh

Though hm, based on that, Traya probably only developed the power to do what Nihilus does after he severed the Force from her.

Been awhile since I played the game but I thought Malachor V's unique force presence allowed them to learn the technique. After all, all the Sith Assassins can use a weaker version of it.

Originally posted by ares834
Why would drain weaken anyone even if they are made of flesh and blood? Malak's drain, for example, boosted him. It could be simply Abeloth's unique nature as the embodiment of chaos and imbalance. Or Krayt could simply be shitty at force drain. I could entertain either view.


Shitty at Force drain. Second one.




Originally posted by ares834

Sorta. Luke and Krayt destroy Abeloth in the Beyond Shadows but she still exists.

"Three days ago we were attacked by a tentacle. It materialized out of the Force and attmpted to choke Jedi Saar. When Jedi Arelis ignited his lightsaber, it released Saar and turned to attack Arelis - then just dissolved."



Well Nihilus only has to kill her one time to win here.




Originally posted by ares834

Nah. Lifting the Ravager is impressive, but as Gid pointed out numerous times he had the benefit of a dark side nexus. By contrast Luke destroyed a fortress with the force and even more impressive rebuilt it. And, perhaps greatest of all, he used the force to move a miniature black hole.



Nihilus was turned into a Maelstrom of pure Force energy, so he wouldn't need a Nexus like say, Palpatine would.

Yanking a massive Warship out of the Gravity-Well, of a world, which may range into the millions of billions of tons is more impressive than rebuilding a structure.

And Luke moved a miniature black hole after taking control of a Dovin Basal.





Originally posted by ares834

Regardless, Abeloth melted an entire city of Sith with a single scream. Not sure why Nihilus would survive such an attack (or Luke for that matter).


Nihilus tanked a gravitational explosion that ripped an entire world into pieces and killed every living thing on it.

He wins here.

- She will be screaming, though - not that it will do her any good.

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/Untitled.jpg

(Those are Calamari-tentacles around her)

Originally posted by ares834
Been awhile since I played the game but I thought Malachor V's unique force presence allowed them to learn the technique. After all, all the Sith Assassins can use a weaker version of it. They have all experienced the technique first-hand as well.

They've been in Nihilus's presence. 131

Also, Jesus Christ Battlemaster, the sad part is that that is actually Abeloth's true appearance. What a lame-ass Lovecraftian horror.

Originally posted by ares834
True. Which then brings up the question, can Abeloth be severed from the force?

Canon stated that the only defense to Nihilus's Drain is a Force Wound.

Is Abeloth a Force Wound?

Hold on, I'll go look her up and see if she is.

Back - nope, she isn't.

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/Untitled.jpg

Nihilus eats her.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Nihilus was turned into a Maelstrom of pure Force energy, so he wouldn't need a Nexus like say, Palpatine would.

Perhaps Nihilus could. But he still had access to a nexus so we can't say with certainty that he could do so without it.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
And Luke moved a miniature black hole after taking control of a Dovin Basal.

Nah. Kyp does that. Luke does the following.

"Immediately the dovin basals started to shift the void to cover this new attack vector. Luke fed the Force into his hold on the void, thwarting them. Their pressure increased, and still Luke held it unmoving. The torpedoes got closer and closer. The dovin basals pulled harder, and when their effort reached a new peak, Luke let the void slip over toward intercepting the proton torpedoes.

The dovin basals devoted their efforts to sliding the void into place, which required both some lateral movement and shortening the arc over which the void would travel. As they brought it close to the vehicle, Luke pushed with the Force. Since the dovin basals were already tugging the void back toward the vehicle, they were not prepared to have the travel accelerated."

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Nihilus tanked a gravitational explosion that ripped an entire world into pieces and killed every living thing on it.

Not confirmed. Regardless, he clearly isn't impervious to harm as the Exile and her companions end up slaying him. And Abeloth can certainly dish out far more pain than the Exile.

Originally posted by ares834
Perhaps, Nihilus could. But he still had access to a nexus so we can't say with certainty that he could do so without it.


He held ships together and drug them around the cosmos, even amidst the influence of other gravitational signatures, and in Hyperspace.

So yeah, I think we could.






Originally posted by ares834

Nah. Kyp does that. Luke does the following.

"Immediately the dovin basals started to shift the void to cover this new attack vector. Luke fed the Force into his hold on the void, thwarting them. Their pressure increased, and still Luke held it unmoving. The torpedoes got closer and closer. The dovin basals pulled harder, and when their effort reached a new peak, Luke let the void slip over toward intercepting the proton torpedoes.

The dovin basals devoted their efforts to sliding the void into place, which required both some lateral movement and shortening the arc over which the void would travel. As they brought it close to the vehicle, Luke pushed with the Force. Since the dovin basals were already tugging the void back toward the vehicle, they were not prepared to have the travel accelerated."



That doesn't prove anything. Luke still needed the Dovin Basal to manipulate the singularity.




Originally posted by ares834

Not confirmed. Regardless, he clearly isn't impervious to harm as the Exile and her companions end up slaying him. And Abeloth can certainly dish out far more pain than the Exile.

Confirmed. He was on the planet when the Super-weapon went off, ripping it into pieces and killing every remaining thing on the planet.

The Generator, a superweapon conceived by the Zabrak tech specialist Bao-Dur, killed almost everyone on the planet's surface and in orbit nearby. This man survived the superweapon's destruction of the surface of Malachor and in his grief over his losses during the war he assumed a dark persona, in part as a means of survival.
- Lifted from Wook, also - and taken originally from the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide.

The only reason the Exile could harm him, was because 99% of his Force energy had been exhausted in trying to feed upon a Force Wound, meaning his durability in the Force, which could before tank Planetary-explosions, was now lessened to where the Exile could kill him.


But Nihilus is at Peak power here, and Abeloth isn't a Force Wound - so she's screwed.

I'll cut down the "fat" to only a few things.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
That doesn't prove anything. Luke still needed the Dovin Basal to manipulate the singularity.

Not true. The Dovin Basal can move the singularity, yet Luke prevented this from happening. This means he was applying an equal amount of force as the Basal meaning if Luke wanted to he could move the black hole if the Basal did not resist.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
The Generator, a superweapon conceived by the Zabrak tech specialist Bao-Dur, killed almost everyone on the planet's surface and in orbit nearby. This man survived the superweapon's destruction of the surface of Malachor and in his grief over his losses during the war he assumed a dark persona, in part as a means of survival.
- Lifted from Wook, also - and taken originally from the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide.

I have the guide and it does not confirm any of that in his passage. If it does exist somewhere else in the book, please direct me to the passage. Regardless, even if we assume he survived the attack. Durability against such an event does not translate to durability against a different source. Different defenses exist against different forms of attack. After all, Yoda can protect himself against Sidious's lightning but we don't assume he can survive against Nihilus's drain as that would require something different.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Canon stated that the only defense to Nihilus's Drain is a Force Wound.

Is Abeloth a Force Wound?

Hold on, I'll go look her up and see if she is.

The problem is Abeloth may be an aspect of the force itself. If true it wouldn't make sense saying you can cut her off from the force if she is composed of force energy.

Originally posted by ares834
I'll cut down the "fat" to only a few things. Not true. The Dovin Basal can move the singularity, yet Luke prevented this from happening. This means he was applying an equal amount of force as the Basal meaning if Luke wanted to he could move the black hole if the Basal did not resist.




You still haven't proved that Luke wasn't manipulating a Dovin Basal.




Originally posted by ares834

I have the guide and it does not confirm any of that in his passage. If it does exist somewhere else in the book, please direct me to the passage.


Are you sure you aren't looking at a cookbook, and forgot to put your contacts in?




Originally posted by ares834

Regardless, even if we assume he survived the attack. Durability against such an event does not translate to durability against a different source. Different defenses exist against different forms of attack. After all, Yoda can protect himself against Sidious's lightning but we don't assume he can survive against Nihilus's drain as that would require something different.



Sidious's lightning is inherently an Offending attacking capability, whereas Nihilus's Drain doesn't give energy - but takes.

Nihilus can tank or absorb any Offending attack launched at him.

Abeloth can expel Force attacks that Nihilus would eat, or simply diffuse atoms and cause huge explosions that Nihilus could simply tank.

Originally posted by ares834
The problem is Abeloth may be an aspect of the force itself. If true it wouldn't make sense saying you can cut her off from the force if she is composed of force energy.

Actually - it would.


A black hole is made up of an acceleration of energetic particles.

Nihilus is a black hole - in the Force.

That would be like saying, "it wouldn't make sense saying that a black hole could pull in light, even though light is made of energy like a black hole is."

Basically, Nihilus eats Force energy, and she's made of his favorite snack - so he can totally eat her.

It would be no different than a black hole coming close to a sun - and while not close enough to swallow up the entire sun - it still swallows off parts of light emanating from the sun.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
You still haven't proved that Luke wasn't manipulating a Dovin Basal.

Please. The fact it's working against him shows he wasn't. Let's use some common sense here.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Are you sure you aren't looking at a cookbook, and forgot to put your contacts in?

If you don't want to direct me to the excerpt from the book a direct quote and proximate position in the book would be helpful. As it is I see no mention of him tanking the Mass-Shadow Generator.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Sidious's lightning is inherently an Offending attacking capability, whereas Nihilus's Drain doesn't give energy - but takes.

A minor distinction. Regardless, the point still stands. Force absorb is useful against lightning and blaster bolts but doesn't appear to be applicable against telekinesis. Why should Nihilus's defense against a gravity based attack be applicable against an attack with a very different nature? Quite simply, it shouldn't.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Nihilus can tank or absorb any Offending attack launched at him.

This has never been stated anywhere.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Actually - it would.


A black hole is made up of an acceleration of energetic particles.

Nihilus is a black hole - in the Force.

You know that Nihilus isn't actually a black hole in the force right? It's a metaphor.

And I have never seen him mentioned to be one either, to my knowledge only Sidious has been called one.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
That would be like saying, "it wouldn't make sense saying that a black hole could pull in light, even though light is made of energy like a black hole is."

Not at all. Drain works on her. And that's what you are describing here. But as pointed out Nihilus doesn't actually drain he severs and then feeds on the death caused. But to sever a being that is one with the force from the force, doesn't make sense.

There is no single mention of Force wound weakening. On video he is shown suffering after attempt to feed on her. But it could be only emotional suffering, not the result of being Force exhausted.

you guys are arguing the wrong Luke feat: His most impressive TK was "submerged himself in the force, and when Luke Skywalker did that, nothing, not even the massive black hole at the center of the galaxy could move him."

Rough paraphrase, but you know the quote of which I speak. Argue THAT. the dovin basil thing is chump change compared to it.

Originally posted by truejedi
you guys are arguing the wrong Luke feat: His most impressive TK was "submerged himself in the force, and when Luke Skywalker did that, nothing, not even the massive black hole at the center of the galaxy could move him."

Rough paraphrase, but you know the quote of which I speak. Argue THAT. the dovin basil thing is chump change compared to it.

Resisting and conquering UnuThul at all was a pretty much unparalleled combat feat.

Originally posted by truejedi
you guys are arguing the wrong Luke feat: His most impressive TK was "submerged himself in the force, and when Luke Skywalker did that, nothing, not even the massive black hole at the center of the galaxy could move him."

Rough paraphrase, but you know the quote of which I speak. Argue THAT. the dovin basil thing is chump change compared to it.

Hyperbole.

The Dovin Basal thing may or may not be chump change - but the "feat" you just quoted, is Counterfeit.

Its too specific to be hyperbole imo.

Neph is right. Explicit statements tend to be just that, statements of fact.


Barring lying/sarcasm of course. However, those are not there.

Has she shown anything to deflect multi-million ton TK?

Wow, people really aren't giving Krayt much credit in this thread.

No one does. Not many of us actually read the comics. I myself have no idea how powerful he is, other than that he was matched/beaten by Cade who from what I hear is poorly trained.

The fact that he survived Abeloth's fight makes him far more impressive, than I thought before. But how several times Luke was about to pawn him and changed his mind at last instance was just hilarious.

Originally posted by ares834
Please. The fact it's working against him shows he wasn't. Yes, let's continue to shift the argument to make my blunder my disappear.


Right - and how do we know that Luke wasn't in control of a Dovin Basal at the time, to play that game with the other Dovin Basal's and manipulate the singularity?




Originally posted by ares834
As it is I see no mention of him tanking the Mass-Shadow Generator.



Okay - just so I'm getting this correctly - you're basically saying that Nihilus was not at Malachor V - because the Mass Shadow Generator killed everything on that planet, and almost everything in orbit around it.
In order for Nihilus to not tank the blast from the MSG, he would have to either be destroyed at the beginning of the game (so you never fight him later because of this) or, not be on the planet.

Is this what you're claiming? That he wasn't on the planet? Fascinating!

I have never heard of him being on any other planet during the Mandalorian Wars, so where do you get the info for your claim?
Also, the death and destruction at Malachor was what gave Nihilus his great power to begin with (it's the reason there is a character in the game called Darth Nihilus) without Malachor, his character wouldn't exist.

So, what source are you claiming says that Nihilus wasn't on Malachor when the Generator went off?

I actually find that to be a lot more interesting, considering where we have multiple sources saying he was on the planet at the time - there is only one source attempting to indicate he wasn't - you.

What do you know that that countless moderators and the creators of the game do not know? Share your secrets with us. detective




Originally posted by ares834

A minor distinction. Regardless, the point still stands. Force absorb is useful against lightning and blaster bolts but doesn't appear to be applicable against telekinesis. Why should Nihilus's defense against a gravity based attack be applicable against an attack with a very different nature? Quite simply, it shouldn't.


From what I understand, all of Abeloth's attacks that I've heard of stem from her hurling destructive Force energy at something - which Nihilus can eat like pez.



Originally posted by ares834
You know that Nihilus isn't actually a black hole in the force right? It's a metaphor.


Nihilus is literally a hole in the Force that sucks Force energy into it - literally a black hole in the Force.


Originally posted by ares834

And I have never seen him mentioned to be one either, to my knowledge only Sidious has been called one.

- Right, and that is the one that is a Metaphor, genius.



Originally posted by ares834

Not at all. Drain works on her. And that's what you are describing here. But as pointed out Nihilus doesn't actually drain he severs and then feeds on the death caused. But to sever a being that is one with the force from the force, doesn't make sense.


- Right, and guess what the feeding is? Draining.
Also Abeloth is an entity made of Force energy, the stuff Nihilus feeds on/drains/eats, so as he is a wound in the Force, in which all Force energy goes to die afterwards, feeds on her as well, and if she isn't a Force Wound then there isn't anything she can do about it.



Originally posted by ares834

This has never been stated anywhere.
Neither has Nihilus being on any planet other than Malachor V during the end of the war - according to any other source.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its too specific to be hyperbole imo.


Well, I've looked it up before and every other versus thread it's been mentioned in, people have reminded the poster that the quote is clearly hyperbole.

It's a nice quote though; very flashy.

Because Dovin Basal is Yuuzhan Vong technology, which is void in the Force and, therefore, cannot be manipulated by Force in any way.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Right - and how do we know that Luke wasn't in control of a Dovin Basal at the time, to play that game with the other Dovin Basal's and manipulate the singularity?

Because the text never mentions it. Furthermore, Dovin Basals don't actually exist in the force so Luke shouldn't be able to control it.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Okay - just so I'm getting this correctly - you're basically saying that Nihilus was not at Malachor V - because the Mass Shadow Generator killed everything on that planet, and almost everything in orbit around it.

He was on Malachor V at one point. As it is I don't see why he has to be on the planet when the generator goes off. He could have just as easily been in orbit and his ship crashed.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
From what I understand, all of Abeloth's attacks that I've heard of stem from her hurling destructive Force energy at something - which Nihilus can eat like pez.

Nihilus has never "ate" a force attack.


Originally posted by Battlemaster
- Right, and guess what the feeding is? Draining.
Also Abeloth is an entity made of Force energy, the stuff Nihilus feeds on/drains/eats, so as he is a wound in the Force, in which all Force energy goes to die afterwards, feeds on her as well, and if she isn't a Force Wound then there isn't anything she can do about it.

No. As Neph and other have pointed out repeatedly in other threads. Nihilus's drain isn't simply draining. It first requires him to sever Abeloth.

Not to mention that pulling the Ravager from Malachor is just alluded to, and not actually shown.


I mean, a LOT of Revan threads before "Revan" was released involved a quote from Kreia, which everybody dismissed as evidence simply because she lies.



Devils Advocate here, I am not on a side as of yet.

I think it's confirmed in one of the loading screens.

Hmmmmmmmm

I am still not sure how I feel about a loading screen being canon. It doesn't make much sense.

Originally posted by ares834
Because the text never mentions it. Furthermore, Dovin Basals don't actually exist in the force so Luke shouldn't be able to control it.


Then neither should Kyp.

But he did - and if you revealed more text, I'm sure we would see that Luke did, too. dev



Originally posted by ares834

He was on Malachor V at one point. As it is I don't see why he has to be on the planet when the generator goes off. He could have just as easily been in orbit and his ship crashed.


Really, he was?

I've never seen any other source saying this - only you.




Originally posted by ares834

Nihilus has never "ate" a force attack.



He feeds on the Force, Einstein.




Originally posted by ares834

No. As Neph and other have pointed out repeatedly in other threads. Nihilus's drain isn't simply draining. It first requires him to sever Abeloth.

Right - and the only Canon defense for this is a Force Wound.

Is she a Force Wound?

Hold on, I'll go check.

Be right back.

Battlemaster, what exactly is your source, page and location on the page, that Nihilus was on Malachor? You need to find the "Sources" part on the Wookie page if you want to use it......

Oh, and Abeloth is like the Ones. I think she was one at one point. Nihilus can't sever beings made of the Force. Its illogical.


And Nihilus has never been shown to "eat" and attack with the Force. Not in any material I am aware of. Ergo, you can't say he can.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Then neither should Kyp.

But he did - and if you revealed more text, I'm sure we would see that Luke did, too. dev

Yeah, the Kyp thing seems to be a mistake. In fact, in the very book which Kyp does it it mentions that Jaina was unable to affect the Vong's vessels due to their nature.

And here is the whole scene.

"Luke sank back into the chair and closed his eyes. He took a deep breath and reached out through the Force. He let his sense of things ride above the frayed ones' jagged profile and vectored in toward the vehicle. He got no solid sense of it directly, though a few frayed ones did appear to be housed inside. Instead he used that emptiness as a way point to search out a void, and as it formed, the black hole blossomed fully in the Force.

The void that the vehicle's dovin basals created to intercept the missiles was a gravitic anomaly that had substance in the real world. Tiny threads of the Force leaked into it as insects and birds, bats and bugs were pulled into it. Luke used their vanishing life traces and the very currents in the air that the void created to define the void. He traced its edges, knew exactly where it was, and knew how powerful it was.

He opened himself to the Force more fully than he had in years. He sought more power than he had when freeing his nephew. The Force flooded into him, at once molten-metal hot, yet as soothing as a cool rain. It swirled through him, filling every cell of his body, freeing him from fatigue, sharpening his mind.

Luke reached out with that power and latched onto the void that the Yuuzhan Vong vehicle had created. He pushed a bit, then tugged, in nanoseconds getting a feel for the power the dovin basals were able to exert to control the void. He almost smiled, since that amount of power was nothing compared to the Force, but he stopped himself short of pride in that fact.

"Artoo, juke the missiles."

R2-D2 keened sharply and fed the proton torpedoes a new set of data. The torpedoes twisted in flight and arced toward the sky, flying up and over the void. Then they turned again and fell toward the ground, aimed at the vehicle's spine.

Immediately the dovin basals started to shift the void to cover this new attack vector. Luke fed the Force into his hold on the void, thwarting them. Their pressure increased, and still Luke held it unmoving. The torpedoes got closer and closer. The dovin basals pulled harder, and when their effort reached a new peak, Luke let the void slip over toward intercepting the proton torpedoes.

The dovin basals devoted their efforts to sliding the void into place, which required both some lateral movement and shortening the arc over which the void would travel. As they brought it close to the vehicle, Luke pushed with the Force. Since the dovin basals were already tugging the void back toward the vehicle, they were not prepared to have the travel accelerated.

The void crashed into the vehicle, striking it in midspine. The long vehicle bent backward as both ends became sucked into the black hole. It flowed like thick liquid, all the sharp horns and bony plates becoming fluid as they curved up over the void's event horizon. In less than an eye blink the vehicle had been consumed by the void, leaving a huge gap in the Yuuzhan Vong formation."

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Really, he was?

I've never seen any other source saying this - only you.

He was what? We know he was on Malachor V when he stripped Kreia of the force. If you are talking about him crashing onto the planet, I did not state it as fact. I merely presented another possibility in contrast to him actually being on the planet at the time of detonation. Hell, I don't even think there was a ground battle during the battle.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
He feeds on the Force, Einstein.

Yeah, on the force within people. Never has he shown the ability to feed on force power thrown his way.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Right - and the only Canon defense for this is a Force Wound.

Is she a Force Wound?

Hold on, I'll go check.

I'm not sure why you think this is true. Do you think Nihilus could drain a droid?

Originally posted by Arhael


So, if a pillar will be thrown at him, he will absorb it as well?
TK blast is not the Force as much as effect caused by it. Even Yuuzan Vong were affected by TK to some extend. Also, there is no known example in EU of anybody absorbing TK.
Also, Force lightning is not the Force, it is energy. That's why it worked on Yuuzhan Vong.
There is no known actual Force attack absorb ability in EU. Examples such as Revan, Satele, Corran Horn and Keiran Halkion were absorbing energy like electricity, blaster bolts, explosions and lightsaber beam, which could be converted into power. As for Yoda, he wasn't even absorbing lightning into himself, he contained it in his grasp, that's why he wasn't empowered by it.


Seems like she is worse. That's why Krayt suffered absorbing her but unlike Nihilus, who gave up after one attempt, he continued through his suffering. Also, your point about him suffering because he is made from flash is utterly invalid. They fought beyond shadows, inside spiritual world outside their bodies.

Originally posted by Pwned
Battlemaster, what exactly is your source, page and location on the page, that Nihilus was on Malachor? You need to find the "Sources" part on the Wookie page if you want to use it......


What's the source that he wasn't?

Every source I've seen says he was - and only one says he isn't - Ares.

So I want to see what makes his one opinion more valid than apparent established Canon.





Originally posted by Pwned

Oh, and Abeloth is like the Ones. I think she was one at one point. Nihilus can't sever beings made of the Force. Its illogical.


If that were true, he wouldn't be able to feed on Force energy. But that's illogical.

But he does, and Abeloth is Force energy, so he feeds on her.





Originally posted by Pwned

And Nihilus has never been shown to "eat" and attack with the Force. Not in any material I am aware of. Ergo, you can't say he can.

Play Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords; in case you don't know, he's a character in that game that feeds on Force energy, and uses Force powers to attack other people with the Force.

Ergo, I can say he can, because he does.

Guys, just concede, until she melts your brainzzz.

......


What are your sources? You have to prove it.

There is a difference between the, "crude matter" that people are made of, and their Force signature. He feeds on the Force that they are a part of, not made of.

Nope, I played that game several times, he never ate an attack that was launched at him via the Force. He can sever people from the Force in such a way that they die, and feed off of their agony (its a known technique multiple dark siders use, such as Bane and Palpatine (the feeding off the agony, not the severing)) but he can't absorb the Force energy from an attack because he was never shown to do so, not even hinted at, or implied. "Because I say so" is not a valid debating tactic.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
What's the source that he wasn't?

Every source I've seen says he was - and only one says he isn't - Ares.

So I want to see what makes his one opinion more valid than apparent established Canon.



I said no such thing. I've only claimed that no source says Nihilus was on the planet at detention and that it is equally feasible that his ship crashed there. And no canon source has claimed he was on the planet.

Also, when someone experiences millions of deaths, putting up defenses against anything is the last thing they would think off.
Also, there is no Force wound concept outside KOTTOR. There are many examples of Force users suffering far greater disturbances in the Force. Like Kyp suffering death of his brother and entire Karrida. Or Brakiss and Kueller feeling simultaneous death of entire planet population they were on. Or Itor annihilation by Yuuzhan Vong. And many other examples.

Also, there is nothing to suggest that Krayt's Force drain sucked. At the same time there is nothing suggesting that drain can't be resisted. Both Luke and Cade had no problem with that, when encountering Krayt.

Originally posted by ares834
"The void that the vehicle's dovin basals created to intercept the missiles was a gravitic anomaly that had substance in the real world. Tiny threads of the Force leaked into it as insects and birds, bats and bugs were pulled into it. Luke used their vanishing life traces and the very currents in the air that the void created to define the void. He traced its edges, knew exactly where it was, and knew how powerful it was.

He opened himself to the Force more fully than he had in years. He sought more power than he had when freeing his nephew. The Force flooded into him, at once molten-metal hot, yet as soothing as a cool rain. It swirled through him, filling every cell of his body, freeing him from fatigue, sharpening his mind.

Luke reached out with that power and latched onto the void that the Yuuzhan Vong vehicle had created. He pushed a bit, then tugged, in nanoseconds getting a feel for the power the dovin basals were able to exert to control the void."


Yep, it was the Dovin Basal. Not Luke.



Originally posted by ares834

He was what??? We know he was on Malachor V when he stripped Kreia of the force. If you are talking about him crashing onto the planet, I did not state it as fact. I merely presented another possibility in contrast to him actually being on the planet at the time of detonation. Hell, I don't even think there was a ground battle during the battle.


You're still the one claiming he wasn't on the planet when the war ended, when every other source I've seen says otherwise.

What do you know that they don't?




Originally posted by ares834

Yeah, on the force within people. Never has he shown the ability to feed on force power thrown his way.


He pulls it out of people - but the Force is what he's after - he's a Wound in the Force itself - seeking out all Force energy to consume.

Force attacks like lightning and destruction can be absorbed conventionally anyway, and he seeks Force energy, period, and that is what Force attacks are made of.





Originally posted by ares834

I'm not sure why you think this is true.


Okay - back.

Yep, she's not a Force Wound, so she's screwed.

Next.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yep, it was the Dovin Basal. Not Luke.

You serious? The force was leaking into the void not the Basal.
"Tiny threads of the Force leaked into it as insects and birds, bats and bugs were pulled into it."

"It" clearly refers to the block hole as it's sucking up animals.

Read the whole sentence next time please.


Originally posted by Battlemaster You're still the one claiming he wasn't on the planet when the war ended, when every other source I've seen says otherwise.

Quit using straw mans. I never once claimed that he wasn't on the planet during detention. I've only said that no source stated that he was. And if every source claims he was on the planet post a quote from one.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Force attacks like lightning and destruction can be absorbed conventionally anyway, and he seeks Force energy, period, and that is what Force attacks are made of.

I'll believe it once you show an example of him doing it.

Originally posted by ares834
You serious? The force was leaking into the void not the Basal.
"Tiny threads of the Force leaked into it as insects and birds, bats and bugs were pulled into it."

"It" clearly refers to the block hole as it's sucking up animals.

Read the whole sentence next time please.


How about you tell me why he's in the machine, if he doesn't need it to manipulate a singularity.

If that's the case, he and Kyp can just fly around in any ship and destroy the Vong that way.

But, surprise, surprise, they capture the Vong ships designed to manipulate singularities.

Curious, no?

How about you use your noggin for a change?





Originally posted by ares834

Quit using straw mans. I never once claimed that he wasn't on the planet during detention. I've only said that no source stated that he was. And if every source claims he was on the planet post a quote from one.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Lawl. Internet fail.






Originally posted by ares834

I'll believe it once you show an example of him doing it.


Just like I'll believe you about Nihilus not being on Malachor, when you can show me proof of it.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
How about you tell me why he's in the machine, if he doesn't need it to manipulate a singularity.

You talking about the Star Destroyer that Luke's sitting in... Why would that make a difference?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
If that's the case, he and Kyp can just fly around in any ship and destroy the Vong that way.

Hmm... Probably because it takes Luke a massive amount of effort to do so. The text notes that he is exhausted.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Just like I'll believe you about Nihilus not being on Malachor, when you can show me proof of it.

Good thing I didn't claim that. Rather I said I've seen no source stating such and, despite your claims that numerous sources say so, you've presented no canon evidence that he was. Nor have you provided any for Nihilus eating force attacks.

Originally posted by ares834
You talking about the Star Destroyer that Luke's sitting in... Why would that make a difference?


I'm talking about the Dovin Basal's Luke needs to manipulate singularities.





Originally posted by ares834

Hmm... Probably because it takes Luke a massive amount of effort to do so. The text notes that he is exhausted.


Hmm... probably because only a Dovin Basal can do it - which is why they used them.




Originally posted by ares834

Good thing I didn't claim that.


You're not claiming that? renske

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'm talking about the Dovin Basal's Luke needs to manipulate singularities.

Please direct me to where it says he manipulates the dovin basal. All it talks about is him manipulating the "void".

Originally posted by Battlemaster
You're not claiming that? renske

No. I'm simply asking for a source that says he was on the planet during the generator's detention as there are other ways he could have got there.

Originally posted by ares834
Please direct me to where it says he manipulates the dovin basal. All it talks about is him manipulating the "void

Please. Even one of the Forum's greatest Debators knew Luke was using a Dovin Basal.

Originally posted by Gideon
All I know is that a dovin basal is not the same thing as a black hole; the dovin basal merely creates artificial black holes. It's rather like saying that manipulating the firing mechanism for a nuclear warhead means that someone has power on par with its yield.

Furthermore, the dovin basal in question was powerful enough only to intercept missiles -- and Luke had to enter brief meditation in order to pull that off.

Not nearly as impressive as "LOL LUKE MANIPULATES BLACK WHOLES!"

He has far more impressive feats, imho.




Originally posted by ares834

No. I'm simply asking for a source that says he was on the planet during the generator's detention as there are other ways he could have got there.

I'm asking for One source that says he wasn't.

So far, I only have you to go on - and I don't think all the other sources on Google are wrong, and you're magically right.

You do know how to type into the Google search bar, right? renske

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Please. Even one of the Forum's greatest Debators knew Luke was using a Dovin Basal.

And in this case he is wrong. But if you wish to treat his opinion as canon fact, that's fine by me. But alas, then we must then do this with everything he states.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'm asking for One source that says he wasn't.

So far, I only have you to go on - and I don't think all the other sources on Google are wrong, and you're magically right.

You do know how to type into the Google search bar, right? renske

Why should I prove that he isn't? I never said he wasn't on the planet during detention, only that no source confirms such. Furthermore, Google is not a canon source.

Dovin Basals manipulated by Force... What next? Nihilus draining Yuuzhan Vongs?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No one does. Not many of us actually read the comics. I myself have no idea how powerful he is, other than that he was matched/beaten by Cade who from what I hear is poorly trained.

That's... not really a good description.

Cade had both near-complete Jedi training, plus months of Sith training, plus a lot of bounty hunter experience. And like Luke, he picked up skill really fast. He started out the series rusty, but was fighting on the level of Jedi masters in no-time.

And, I should note, Cade never was his match in combat and never beat him in a duel. Cade was able to put up a fight in the final battle (after Cade had been fighting Sith and Jedi and Imperial Knights for something like two years strait), but even then Krayt literally did kill him in the fight and if it wasn't for Krayt healing him so he could turn him, that would've been it, game over, Krayt win. The first time they fought, the only reason Cade even escaped was because Krayt was shot in the back.

The only person in the series who was really able to go power-to-power with Krayt was Celeste Morne, a KotoR era Jedi Master who was empowered by Karness Muur, one of the original Hundred Year's Darkness Sith Lords (and I'll note- Morne was still solidly outmatched before Muur took the driver's seat).

Darth Wyyrlok, Krayt's second (and slayer of ancient sith Darth Andeddu), put up some fight too, but was beaten at his own speciality.


I mean, Krayt's 80 years older by the time of his series than when he helped Luke, but still, guy's a badass. Even before he got any Sith training, only his Jedi skills, he was a near-match for Obi-wan.

Oh yea, and at one point he solo'd a Vong warship, unarmed Broke free from restraints, killed all the Vong, escaped as it blew up.

Battlemaster, you really, really should learn how to debate. You haven't brought a single piece of proof at all. Not even incorrect proof. And you apparently jump to conclusions and use out-of-context quotes. Congrats.

As a famous character once said (paraphrased to be a direct address), "Its like you have the monk class feature that allows you to jump as far as you want, but for you it only applies to conclusions."

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Hyperbole.

The Dovin Basal thing may or may not be chump change - but the "feat" you just quoted, is Counterfeit.

sorry, i'm taking the novel's quote over your weak dismissal.

Only that can easily be considered narrative hyperbole.

Not that I condone Battlemaster's attempt at "debating" in this thread.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Only that can easily be considered narrative hyperbole.

Not that I condone Battlemaster's attempt at "debating" in this thread.



Gideon made a convincing case for the quote to be hyperbolic, but UnuThul was utterly impotent against Luke in this scenario. And when you consider that he had the entire Force potential of the Colony to draw upon (I believe the numbers provided by Borbarad and others put those to be in the millions or billions), the quote is renewed with a profound sense of literalism.

Originally posted by Q99
That's... not really a good description.

Cade had both near-complete Jedi training, plus months of Sith training, plus a lot of bounty hunter experience. And like Luke, he picked up skill really fast. He started out the series rusty, but was fighting on the level of Jedi masters in no-time.

And, I should note, Cade never was his match in combat and never beat him in a duel. Cade was able to put up a fight in the final battle (after Cade had been fighting Sith and Jedi and Imperial Knights for something like two years strait), but even then Krayt literally did kill him in the fight and if it wasn't for Krayt healing him so he could turn him, that would've been it, game over, Krayt win. The first time they fought, the only reason Cade even escaped was because Krayt was shot in the back.

The only person in the series who was really able to go power-to-power with Krayt was Celeste Morne, a KotoR era Jedi Master who was empowered by Karness Muur, one of the original Hundred Year's Darkness Sith Lords (and I'll note- Morne was still solidly outmatched before Muur took the driver's seat).

Darth Wyyrlok, Krayt's second (and slayer of ancient sith Darth Andeddu), put up some fight too, but was beaten at his own speciality.


I mean, Krayt's 80 years older by the time of his series than when he helped Luke, but still, guy's a badass. Even before he got any Sith training, only his Jedi skills, he was a near-match for Obi-wan.

Oh yea, and at one point he solo'd a Vong warship, unarmed Broke free from restraints, killed all the Vong, escaped as it blew up.

tl;dr

Originally posted by Nephthys
tl;dr

Short version: He's badass, strong, and well worthy of the title Dark Lord of the Sith.

Cade's also more skilled than you think and gets a lot more dangerous as the story goes on, but he never gets to Krayt's level.

Legacy people have met and fought with various people of different eras and performed well.

Originally posted by ares834
But if you wish to treat his opinion as canon fact, that's fine by me. But alas, then we must then do this with everything he states.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Originally posted by Q99
Short version: He's badass, strong, and well worthy of the title Dark Lord of the Sith.

Cade's also more skilled than you think and gets a lot more dangerous as the story goes on, but he never gets to Krayt's level.

Legacy people have met and fought with various people of different eras and performed well.

I did some research on Krayt and he does seem deadly.

Where would you stack him in the pantheon of Sith Lords, in terms of power and skill?

I too, would like to know that.

Originally posted by ares834
And in this case he is wrong. But if you wish to treat his opinion as canon fact, that's fine by me.



No, in this case, he is quite right and I'm glad for his insight.


- and I know somewhere, Gideon is looking down upon us, happy.




Originally posted by ares834

Why should I prove that he isn't? I never said he wasn't on the planet during detention, only that no source confirms such. Furthermore, Google is not a canon source.

So nothing that can be found on Google is a Canon source? Wow, I guess that rules out every website.

But, if you aren't saying he wasn't on the planet during the end of the war, then I suppose we have nothing to argue about.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I did some research on Krayt and he does seem deadly.

Where would you stack him in the pantheon of Sith Lords, in terms of power and skill?


After his rebirth I'd say he's up there with some of the very strongest, definitely Bane tier and such.

Pre-rebirth, when he still has his Vong growths, he's a rung or two down from that, but still dangerous.

Bane level? lol no.

Originally posted by ares834
Bane level? lol no.
Fought together with Luke like equal. Was stronger, than Cade - one of the strongest Jedi ever. Achieved immortality. Why no?

Fought as equals? Where is that coming from? They fought together true, but that doesn't mean they were equals. As for Cade, what feats imply that he is one of the strongest?

Basically, at the end of the day Krayt doesn't have any impressive feats with his lightning, telekinesis, or sabers. Sure, he may have discovered some cool techniques but most aren't all that useful in a fight.

Originally posted by ares834
Fought as equals? Where is that coming from? They fought together true, but that doesn't mean they were equals.

I agree, but carrying his weight in a duel against a stronger-than-Luke foe still shows power and skill. A weak force user would've just been killed by Abeloth and tossed aside. Even many fairly strong force users would've fallen at some point.

The Krayt who fought Abeloth was not peak Krayt, mind. That was Krayt only two decades after he finished training under XoXaan and got his Vong growths. Peak Krayt is 90 years later after having passed through death to learn Dark Transfer and no longer having to use any effort to overcome the growths.

Also Abeloth related- Jacen had a vision of Krayt ruling the galaxy much much sooner than he did in canon and corrupting Allana, and turned Sith to try and prevent that. Or to put it another way, Jacen thought if it wasn't for his actions, Krayt would've taken over while many of the NJO Jedi badasses would still be alive and kicking.



Well he was able to take on multiple masters at a time on several occasions, threw small starships around even when rusty, used shatterpoints, raised the dead, used a TK bubble to protect himself and Deliah Blue from a large explosion when Maladi's base blew up pretty casually, was very good at sensing things others couldn't and getting visions...




He has impressive saber feats. Aside from fighting Obi-Wan in his youth and having the edge in sabers, he slew 4 Imperial Knights in moments when they had him surrounded and attacked first. He fought Celeste Morne empowered by Karness Muur in a lightning duel as well (Morne and Muur are one of the big cross-era indicators- they interacted with multiple eras. Vader felt that with Muur he could've dethrowned Palpatine but his big worry was being overcome by Muur's spirit in the process. Muur also indicated his power + Morne's would've been plenty to beat Vader. You get the idea).

And he does have strong force illusion feats- Wyyrlok was able to kill Andeddu with his illusions, and Krayt overcame Wyyrlok's.

TK he doesn't use much except for the occasional shove in saber combat, but there's no sign he's weak.

Nihilus would beat him up. estahuh

Also, Battlemaster, if you believe Luke used the Dovin Basal, you should probably endeavor toward proving that. With, you know, evidence.

I'm just saying.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nihilus would beat him up.

Of course, he's no wound in the force.

Originally posted by Q99
I agree, but carrying his weight in a duel against a stronger-than-Luke foe still shows power and skill. A weak force user would've just been killed by Abeloth and tossed aside. Even many fairly strong force users would've fallen at some point.

Not necessarily true. Consider Johun Othane in the duel on Tython. This guy was one of the least skilled named Jedi and yet Bane wasn't able to kill him in their duel (until Zannah helped) because of Bane's other opponents. My point is that simply being there and helping Luke doesn't mean it is an uber feat.

Originally posted by Q99
Well he was able to take on multiple masters at a time on several occasions, threw small starships around even when rusty, used shatterpoints, raised the dead, used a TK bubble to protect himself and Deliah Blue from a large explosion when Maladi's base blew up pretty casually, was very good at sensing things others couldn't and getting visions...

All well and good but that's still a far way from Mace Windu, Revan, Yoda, etc...

Edit: I'm talking about combat.

Originally posted by Q99 He has impressive saber feats. Aside from fighting Obi-Wan in his youth and having the edge in sabers,

No he didn't. Obi-Wan beat him in the duel and chopped off Krayt's arm...

Originally posted by Q99
he slew 4 Imperial Knights in moments when they had him surrounded and attacked first.

None of whom have feats and are fodder. Jango Fett kills several Jedi with his bare hands in Open Season. Are we then going to assume he is on Bane's level when it comes to close combat?

Originally posted by Q99
He fought Celeste Morne empowered by Karness Muur in a lightning duel as well

They never had a prolonged duel. When Muur takes control all that happens is that Krayt shoots lightning at Muur. Muur deflects it. Then Azlyn stabs Krayt in the back.

Originally posted by Q99
(Morne and Muur are one of the big cross-era indicators- they interacted with multiple eras. Vader felt that with Muur he could've dethrowned Palpatine but his big worry was being overcome by Muur's spirit in the process. Muur also indicated his power + Morne's would've been plenty to beat Vader. You get the idea).

There is no indication that Muur actually believes he can defeat Vader in an actual duel. He tells Morne that she "must accept his power" and when Morne uses the amulet to turn all of Vader's Sotrm troopers into Rakghouls he says "that power is mine". The implication, that Muur could defeat Vader not in a duel but by turning Vader's troops into Sith Spawn... Which is what basically happens in the end.

Originally posted by Q99
And he does have strong force illusion feats- Wyyrlok was able to kill Andeddu with his illusions, and Krayt overcame Wyyrlok's.

I'll admit that he is talented at illusions. But other than that he doesn't have much going for him. I mean, Andeddu's holocron even manages to temporarily own him.

If Krayt was so inferior to other characters, he would die right at the beginning, when Abeloth started fight with Force lightning.
How many characters were shown able to tank lightning? Very few. And Abeloth was more powerful, than any Sith, her lightning is likely to be the most potent in the mythos.
Also, Jacen after fight stated something like "He is stronger, he's got the darkside".

And lets not forget, who's descendant Cade was, he has many lightsaber feats and, yet, wasn't as good as Krayt in combat.

Also, your example of Bane unable to defeat a featless Jedi without help plays against your case.

In any case Krayt from FotJ and forward was the most powerful Sith in the galaxy along with Cade being the most powerful Jedi. I don't see any reason to put way bellow standard either of them.

Originally posted by ares834
Not necessarily true. Consider Johun Othane in the duel on Tython. This guy was one of the least skilled named Jedi and yet Bane wasn't able to kill him in their duel (until Zannah helped) because of Bane's other opponents. My point is that simply being there and helping Luke doesn't mean it is an uber feat.

He wasn't exactly being covered for by Luke, he was in the thick the whole time. Abeloth tried to blast them both off, both resisted.

Johun Othane actively hindered Sarro Xaj (when the numerical odds were even more in their favor, 5:2), who had to work to protect him, while Krayt was a major boon against Abeloth.

Simply being there isn't a major feat, contributing heavily and being in the front where he took multiple attacks and kept coming is.




Well, Cade isn't on their level, yea. He's not on Krayt's either.

He's still a very dangerous fighter.




Krayt had the edge in sabers until Obi-wan used the force to blow his arm off with a nasty force-push.




But Jango did not start out surrounded and he didn't win in roughly the same time it took Palpatine to beat Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar (without the surprise factor). Nor do I think the Jedi that Jango killed were masters. These were four Imperial Knights left there specifically as a trap, lead by the Emperor's cousin.

How it is done still counts.

And note when I say Bane's level, I mean overall when he's at his peak- that is, with self-healing, shatterpoints, kill-if-he-gets-a-hand-on-you Dark Transfer, illusions, and all that.




Didn't they beam-of-war for a bit?

*Checks* Guess not, Azlyn stabbed sooner than I thought.




Not really, Andeddu's holocron (which, btw, contained his full spirit, and was not just a holocron) temporarily made his vong symbionts grow and then he forced them back. And even Wyyrlok was able to more than handle Andeddu.

Originally posted by Arhael
If Krayt was so inferior to other characters, he would die right at the beginning, when Abeloth started fight with Force lightning./quote]

Not necessarily true. Furthermore, characters who are greatly inferior to Luke like Ben and Vestra survived encounters with her.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Jacen after fight stated something like "He is stronger, he's got the darkside".

He states "Sith are stronger. They have the dark side." And this is proven wrong time and time again.

Originally posted by Arhael
And lets not forget, who's descendant Cade was, he has many lightsaber feats and, yet, wasn't as good as Krayt in combat.

So being a Skywalker is an automatic pass to being a superjedi? No, it's not.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, your example of Bane unable to defeat a featless Jedi without help plays against your case.

Then the point went completely over your head. Bane is way beyond Johun. But he was unable to defeat him because Johun's companions were formidable enough to keep Bane from breaking through Johun's defenses.

Originally posted by Arhael
In any case Krayt from FotJ and forward was the most powerful Sith in the galaxy along with Cade being the most powerful Jedi. I don't see any reason to put way bellow standard either of them.

Simply being the most powerful of one's era does not mean they are as powerful as those of other eras.

Originally posted by ares834

So being a Skywalker is an automatic pass to being a superjedi? No, it's not.


When combined with training and lots of experience and knowledge of strong force powers it tends to be...




I think you missed my point: Johun's companions were actively working to defend him and make that the case, Bane barely spared any effort for him. Krayt's companion was not, and Abeloth attacked him about as much as Luke. Johun also didn't add anything to the fight to speak of, Luke couldn't have won without Krayt, etc..

It seems to me like you're talking about a hypothetical two-on-one battle, rather than the one where we saw Krayt perform impressively.




No, but there's no reason to simply assume they're much weaker, not when there's no cause to.

Originally posted by Q99
Johun Othane actively hindered Sarro Xaj (when the numerical odds were even more in their favor, 5:2), who had to work to protect him, while Krayt was a major boon against Abeloth.

I'm talking about when Johun battled Bane with Rastka and Farfalla. In fact, the text notes that Rastka is skilled enough to make Johun an asset.

Originally posted by Q99
Simply being there isn't a major feat, contributing heavily and being in the front where he took multiple attacks and kept coming is.

Yet, Luke did most of the heavy lifting. He held down Abeloth giving Krayt the opportunity to drain and he was the one who killed her.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, Cade isn't on their level, yea. He's not on Krayt's either.

He's still a very dangerous fighter.

I'd agree.

Originally posted by Q99
Krayt had the edge in sabers until Obi-wan used the force to blow his arm off with a nasty force-push.

According to Jan (the artist) he cut it off.

http://www.comicscommunity.com/boards/janduursema/?read=9783&expand=0

Originally posted by Q99 But Jango did not start out surrounded and he didn't win in roughly the same time it took Palpatine to beat Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar (without the surprise factor). Nor do I think the Jedi that Jango killed were masters. These were four Imperial Knights left there specifically as a trap, lead by the Emperor's cousin.

How it is done still counts.

Even if they were left there specifically as a trap, attributing them "master status" is flawed. And my point still stands, they don't have feats. Sure they could be master swordsmen or they could make Colemen Trebor look good.

Originally posted by Q99
Not really, Andeddu's holocron (which, btw, contained his full spirit, and was not just a holocron) temporarily made his vong symbionts grow and then he forced them back. And even Wyyrlok was able to more than handle Andeddu.

As I claimed in my initial post it was temporarily. Anyway for a comparison, when Bane gets a hold of the holocron he utterly dominates Andeddu's spirit and force the Andeddu to show him all his secrets.

Originally posted by Q99
When combined with training and lots of experience and knowledge of strong force powers it tends to be...

I find relying on feats rather than heritage works better.

Originally posted by Q99
I think you missed my point: Johun's companions were actively working to defend him and make that the case, Bane barely spared any effort for him. Krayt's companion was not, and Abeloth attacked him about as much as Luke. Johun also didn't add anything to the fight to speak of, Luke couldn't have won without Krayt, etc..

I'm not saying he was useless, but rather that being present at the fight doesn't somehow make him Luke's equal. Anyway, once Abeloth turns her full attention to Krayt she strikes him down.

Originally posted by Q99
No, but there's no reason to simply assume they're much weaker, not when there's no cause to.

Sure there is. He doesn't have the feats to hang with them.

I am just going to address a couple things here, too lazy to quote:

Being a Skywalker pretty much is a free pass to being a superjedi. You just have to get the training first.

The point about Johun is valid, Raskta and Farfalla were the only reason he lasted longer than half a second. He was taken down by non-Force sensitives (when he was escorting that guy on that platform.... A Twi'lek nearly brought him down for good)

I like bacon.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nihilus would beat him up. estahuh

Also, Battlemaster, if you believe Luke used the Dovin Basal, you should probably endeavor toward proving that. With, you know, evidence.

I'm just saying.

Gideon's expert insight in that particular area is good enough for me.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Originally posted by Q99
After his rebirth I'd say he's up there with some of the very strongest, definitely Bane tier and such.

Pre-rebirth, when he still has his Vong growths, he's a rung or two down from that, but still dangerous.


I was thinking that, too..

He does lose to Peak Obi-Wan - but that was when he was younger - and he got better after time passed.

After all his kills and experience, Krayt could probably defeat Peak Obi-wan after he peaked in power and skill, later on.



Seems like Pre-rebirth Krayt is perhaps on par with TPM Mace and Post-Rebirth Krayt is on par with Vader?

Mm, rough estimates of course. I'd need to do more research on the man.

You do research? Really? Woah, my mind has been blown.

Originally posted by Pwned
You do research? Really?


Yeah, I do research. Not everyone is like you, you know.




Originally posted by Pwned

Woah, my mind has been blown.


I suddenly had the image of a tiny "popper" falling onto the sidewalk, and fizzling out.

I find your lack of win disturbing.

Becuase, y'know, you don't know how to debate.

Originally posted by Pwned
Being a Skywalker pretty much is a free pass to being a superjedi. You just have to get the training first.

Jaina is painfully mediocre and she actually does train. So really the equation is: Skywalker + Dick = Superjedi.

Jaina did actually show some prowess after training with the Mandalores, but yeah, before that she was seriously lacking. I understand that she didn't study all the arcane techniques that Jacen did, but there's no reason her combat and basic Force skills should have been so mediocre prior to that. I cry weaksauce.

No she didn't, she got beaten up in hand to hand by a non-force sensitive. She sucks.

Originally posted by ares834
I find relying on feats rather than heritage works better.

Sure there is. He doesn't have the feats to hang with them.

Except he does have plenty of feats that place him at really quite strong.



If you look at the art, there's no way that's the case.




Around the same time that Luke went down, and after having taken multiple attacks earlier.

I'm not saying equals, I'm just saying he was strong in his own right to perform as he did.



Yea, and when Andeddu's spirit gains a new living body, Wyyrlok pwns him, and Krayt beats Wyyrlok in Wyyrlok's strongest area.





Krayt fought some non-Force sensitives without weapons too. They were a warship full of Vong and he was just coming off of torture.

He won.

Originally posted by Q99
Except he does have plenty of feats that place him at really quite strong.


Once I see them. I'll agree.

Originally posted by Q99
If you look at the art, there's no way that's the case.

And yet, that is what the artist wished to convey. IE, it's what happened.

Originally posted by Q99
Around the same time that Luke went down, and after having taken multiple attacks earlier.

I don't recal Luke ever going down. Anyway, it was when she appeared to escape and the suddenly appered in front of Krayt and strcuk him down.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, and when Andeddu's spirit gains a new living body, Wyyrlok pwns him, and Krayt beats Wyyrlok in Wyyrlok's strongest area.

Good for him. But I'm not saying Andeddu was stronger than Krayt. Rather, I simply brought up a pathetic disaplay of his.

Originally posted by Q99
Krayt fought some non-Force sensitives without weapons too. They were a warship full of Vong and he was just coming off of torture.

He won.

Not bad, but it still doesn’t put him in the highest tier of Sith Lords. First, Vong haven't shown any defense against force lightning. Secondly, by the end of the NJO many of the Jedi begin taking down vast numbers of Vong. And finally, Krayt is actually only shown killing two Vong. We don't know how many he ended up killing. Yes, he claims that all of the Vong on the ship (as well as the ship) had to die, but then again he did blow up the ship.

The artist conveyed what was clearly a force-push while his sword was elsewhere. Link

And he still performed really well in the duel in any case, striking hits on Obi-Wan with just his Jedi training.



Eh, I think you've just got it in your head he's weak and thus are just undercounting anything you see.

He's shown some of the best life manipulation of any Sith, he's fought with high-tier duelists when he was much weaker (the Obi-wan fight was before he had any Sith training), he fought against Abeloth on the front lines and both took and dished out large amounts of damage in the fight, and generally performed as a pretty darn high-level fighter before he got a power upgrade.



? There's higher Sith Lords than where I placed him.

TK feat for you Q: when he had only brief training from his father before becoming a jedi he was able to perform moves like force wave, and uses it against a horde of banthas that were surrounding him in one of the republic comics.

Originally posted by Q99
The artist conveyed what was clearly a force-push while his sword was elsewhere. Link

Yes, I agree. The art is bad in this panel, but she meant to draw him cutting off the arm.

Originally posted by Q99
he fought against Abeloth on the front lines and both took and dished out large amounts of damage in the fight, and generally performed as a pretty darn high-level fighter before he got a power upgrade.

Plenty of other fighters have dished out high amounts of damage against Abeloth like Saba Sebatyne. Yet, I wouldn't claim she is one of the greatest Jedi ever.

Originally posted by Q99
? There's higher Sith Lords than where I placed him.

You said he was even with Bane, and Bane is among the highest tier of Sith Lords.

Originally posted by vaderdeljisung
TK feat for you Q: when he had only brief training from his father before becoming a jedi he was able to perform moves like force wave, and uses it against a horde of banthas that were surrounding him in one of the republic comics.

What comic? I just flipped through Outlander and didn't see it in there.

Disagree there Bane is 2nd tier Sith Lord imo. Nihilus, Vitiate, DE Sidious, and Naga Sadow are all top tier and Bane doesn't belong among their number imo.

Bane is more in leagee with Exar Kun, Xannah and TSA.

Krayt probably a league below that...

It'll be in one of the Republic comics during that Sharad Hett saga. Not sure exactly which one.

So Outlander... That's the only comic Sharad is actually in. Anyway, I didn't see A'Sharad Hett push back a herd of Banthas, rather he knocked back a couple of tuskens.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes, I agree. The art is bad in this panel, but she meant to draw him cutting off the arm.


The colorist even drew force glowy push.



Not as much as Krayt.

Saba's not exactly a slouch for that matter.



No, Nihilus, Vitiate, and such are the highest tier of Sith Lords. Arguably Clone Palpatine too.


Bane is pretty high level, but several othe RoT Sith reach his general level. Krayt, who's passed through death, knows a variety of strong force powers, and has strong physical skills as well.

Again, not saying normal armored Krayt is that level, but Reborn, stronger-in-the-force-than-ever, healthy Krayt.

Originally posted by Q99
The colorist even drew force glowy push.

Yeah, he could be simply pushing the arm further away to get the lightsaber out of reach. Regardless, Jan confirms that's not what happens...

Originally posted by Q99
Not as much as Krayt.

Saba's not exactly a slouch for that matter.

She beats Abeltoh by herself pretty much... And ends up killing the avatar she battles...

Originally posted by Q99
Bane is pretty high level, but several othe RoT Sith reach his general level. Krayt, who's passed through death, knows a variety of strong force powers, and has strong physical skills as well.

Again, not saying normal armored Krayt is that level, but Reborn, stronger-in-the-force-than-ever, healthy Krayt.

And yet, you haven't proven it. His defeat of Wyyrlok is pretty good, but ultimately it pales in comparison to Bane's feats like reducing people to ash with lightning or the lightsaber in the rain sequence. I might be inclined to put Krayt on Dooku's level meaning he is still a very powerful Sith Lord... But no higher than that.

Arguably Clone Palpatine?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Arguably Clone Palpatine?

Yeah, Neph. Tell him how Palpatine puts Nihilus to shame.

Very easily arguably. Dunno why I even included the word, really.

Originally posted by ares834

And yet, you haven't proven it.

I've provided plenty of examples and he's performed well against a variety of strong foes, so I'd argue I have.

There doesn't seem to be anything that indicates he's lower.



And his 'revive from the dead / kill people with a touch / yadda yadda'? Bane's attempts at healing pale in comparison to that.

Sure, Bane has stronger lightning. That's his speciality. Krayt has Dark Transfer and stronger Force Illusions, where he's more specialized. Different high-level sith lords are strong in different areas.

Lesse, more stuff. Wyyrlok's lightning destroyed Krayt's armor (which, being Vong armor, is lightsaber and blaster resistant), and Krayt was able to casually deflect it with his hands.



I'd argue Wyyrlok's probably around Dooku's level.

Originally posted by Q99
I've provided plenty of examples and he's performed well against a variety of strong foes, so I'd argue I have.


There doesn't seem to be anything that indicates he's lower.

His combat feats pale in comparison. Losing to Obi-Wan and dealing damage to Abeloth don't match Bane's feats such as his outrageous rain feat.

Originally posted by Q99
And his 'revive from the dead / kill people with a touch / yadda yadda'? Bane's attempts at healing pale in comparison to that.

Which won't be much help in a fight.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, Bane has stronger lightning. That's his speciality. Krayt has Dark Transfer and stronger Force Illusions, where he's more specialized. Different high-level sith lords are strong in different areas.

Don't forget Bane also has better lightsaber skills and telekinesis. Ultimately, Bane is far more adept at martial combat.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, Neph. Tell him how Palpatine puts Nihilus to shame.

They're definitely on the same tier imo. If Palpatines less powerful incarnation is more than a match for Starkiller, his most powerful one is clearly a cut above even that. People don't think Palpatine is the Most Powerful Sith Lord based just off those quotes, he has boatloads of supporting evidence. DE Palpatine is Nihilus-tier for sure imo, and definately frickin' Vitiate-tier.

Originally posted by ares834
His combat feats pale in comparison. Losing to Obi-Wan and dealing damage to Abeloth don't match Bane's feats such as his outrageous rain feat.

Again, you're talking about how his weak forms aren't there yet. Which is, well, duh.

Being near Peak Obi-wan in dueling skill is impressive. He then proceeded to get sith training which made him stronger, a century's worth of experience which made him stronger, passed beyond the veil of life and death, which made him noticeably stronger, and learned to raise the dead- something I'll note both Plageuis and Sidious wanted to be able to do but never achieved.



And for Bane's combat prowess with a lightsaber since you mention the rain feat, it's not like multiple other people of his time weren't on his level in sabers, and the Clone War era that Krayt is from is known for having some of the best duelists ever. Yes, Bane is good in sabers and his rain feat is crazy, but in his actual performance against other Jedi or Sith he doesn't really stand above Krayt.



It's quite useful in fights, he's used it before after all. And it's based on advanced knowledge of shatterpoints, which are very combat useful themselves.




Eh, you're pretty much just assuming that. Krayt's got a long list of fights where he shows himself to be not far from the top even in his weaker versions.

Sabers, close. Lightning, Bane (but Krayt's shown himself quite good at defending against lightning). Illusion, Krayt. Shatterpoints/dark transfer, Krayt. TK, Bane, I think.

A fight between them would be epic and close.

To be fair Bane does seem to be better at the more important and useful ones (lightning, TK, Force Speed etc.).

Originally posted by Q99
Again, you're talking about how his weak forms aren't there yet. Which is, well, duh.

?

Originally posted by Q99
Being near Peak Obi-wan in dueling skill is impressive. He then proceeded to get sith training which made him stronger, a century's worth of experience which made him stronger, passed beyond the veil of life and death, which made him noticeably stronger, and learned to raise the dead- something I'll note both Plageuis and Sidious wanted to be able to do but never achieved.

Being near Obi-Wan is impressive, I'm not denying that. But it doesn't put him in Bane's league that's more around Dooku's.

And Plageuis learned how to raise the dead. In fact, he did it to Venamis multiple times.

Originally posted by Q99
And for Bane's combat prowess with a lightsaber since you mention the rain feat, it's not like multiple other people of his time weren't on his level in sabers, and the Clone War era that Krayt is from is known for having some of the best duelists ever. Yes, Bane is good in sabers and his rain feat is crazy, but in his actual performance against other Jedi or Sith he doesn't really stand above Krayt.

That would mean you to believe that the character's Bane crossed blades with are equivalent with those than Krayt battled. Which doesn't have to be the case. And the reason I use the rain feat is because it is far more quantifiable then his duels with other Jedi/Sith, but those are impressive as well.

Originally posted by Q99
It's quite useful in fights, he's used it before after all. And it's based on advanced knowledge of shatterpoints, which are very combat useful themselves.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only time he used it was in his duel with Cade when Cade was pretty much already defeated... And it ended up giving Cade the time to strike down Krayt.

Originally posted by Q99
Sabers, close. Lightning, Bane (but Krayt's shown himself quite good at defending against lightning). Illusion, Krayt. Shatterpoints/dark transfer, Krayt. TK, Bane, I think.

And the ones most relevant to fighting (saber, TK, and lightning) are the ones Bane has an advantage in.

Haha, you had to replace speed with saber didn't you lol.

It's like when Q99 didn't say Naga Sadow and had to say "arguably" DE Sidious.

You guys cna admit the fact that you are using ym arguyments as inspiration you know.

I didn't even think of Naga, honestly.

Originally posted by ares834
?

Being near Obi-Wan is impressive, I'm not denying that. But it doesn't put him in Bane's league that's more around Dooku's.

Yea, that's near Dooku's. He was also maybe 30 at the time, or 70 when he fought Abeloth, when he reaches his peak when he's around 160. 30 years of Sith training, many more years of experience, then an event that greatly increased his power.

I mean, it's like saying "Mace Windu shouldn't be rated too highly. He wasn't that strong before he learned shatterpoints and Vaapad!".

You don't rate post-Vaapad Windu as the same as pre-Vaapad. You don't rate Grand Master Luke as RotJ Luke. You don't rate Anakin as Ep2 Anakin.

So why are you rating Krayt as if his badass-but-well-before-his-peak feats as if they were the max rather than a starting point?

If you're rating him as Dooku based on those feats, well, he had a lot more experience and an event that greatly increased his power!



Hm, didn't know that. Still, never did it to himself. Krayt's still got the edge there.

And Palpatine never did manage it. If he had Krayt's skill his clone degradation in Dark Empire wouldn't have been a big deal.



Rain doesn't exactly translate into dueling, not when we have actual dueling to compare and see that while he's very very powerful, he doesn't dominate. Two of the Jedi who came to kill him and Zannah were pretty similar in level.

And A'Sharad's from the clone war-on era. We know more about his opponents than we do Bane's, and it is an era that put a lot of emphasis on lightsaber skill.



It's how he defeated Cade, Cade was healthy and fighting until he did it.

And it didn't give Cade time- bringing Cade back from the dead is what did that. Krayt literally killed Cade and brought him back during that duel as a means to turn him.

He doesn't exactly have a reason to bring Bane back if he got an opportunity when they fought (just saying 'if,' but the threat is there).




Shatterpoints aren't relevant to fighting? Illusions which can leave someone helpless and can be done while dueling aren't relevant? Defense against lightning isn't relevant?

Seems to me that you're deciding what's relevant based on pre decided result rather than what's relevant.

Naga Sadow is arguably most powerful of them all, that is with amulet at least, imo. He was able to blow up a sun with a gesture in one of the TotJ comics, it was in a flashback IIRC.

I always forget that Sadow had the haxxed amulet before Kun did.

But he blew up that sun with the help of his meditation sphere/ship.

No he used those for the illusions to blow up the sun all he had to do was clench his fist and his amulet did the work.

I guess there is possibility that his ship was darkside nexus or whatever but i honestly think people need to stop focudisng on those details. You do something incredibl, its pretty impressive no matter where you are imo.

Question: what is more powerful, a supernova or a wormhole?

No, it really does matter where you are. Many of the nexus' facilitate easier access to their attuned side of the Force. They tend to improve reactions, precision, and they also allow greater amounts of power to be used before the user succumbs to Force Exhaustion.

Not sure how many times Sadow caused stellar disasters, but this is what The Official Star Wars Fact File #98 has to say:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Random%20Star%20Wars%20stuff/FactFile98SadowMeditationship.png

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-smuggo.gif

Originally posted by Pwned
No, it really does matter where you are. Many of the nexus' facilitate easier access to their attuned side of the Force. They tend to improve reactions, precision, and they also allow greater amounts of power to be used before the user succumbs to Force Exhaustion.

My point is, a weakling isn;lt going to suddenly be able to blow up stars just becvause he is on a force enxus bro.

No, but a weakling would be able to fight people significantly more powerful than him with little problem.

Besides, your talking a meditation sphere, amulets, and prep. Thats not as impressive.

Originally posted by Q99
I didn't even think of Naga, honestly.



Yea, that's near Dooku's. He was also maybe 30 at the time, or 70 when he fought Abeloth, when he reaches his peak when he's around 160. 30 years of Sith training, many more years of experience, then an event that greatly increased his power.

I mean, it's like saying "Mace Windu shouldn't be rated too highly. He wasn't that strong before he learned shatterpoints and Vaapad!".

You don't rate post-Vaapad Windu as the same as pre-Vaapad. You don't rate Grand Master Luke as RotJ Luke. You don't rate Anakin as Ep2 Anakin.

So why are you rating Krayt as if his badass-but-well-before-his-peak feats as if they were the max rather than a starting point?

If you're rating him as Dooku based on those feats, well, he had a lot more experience and an event that greatly increased his power!

I'm not saying he is on Dooku's level merely based on that. However, after this duel Krayt never displays any greater saber feats. All those examples you posted however have.

I view it more like I view Palpatine, I'm not going to say RotJ Sids is vastly superior is saber than RotS Sids. Yes, Krayt's power increased but not necessarily his blade skill.

Originally posted by Q99
Rain doesn't exactly translate into dueling, not when we have actual dueling to compare and see that while he's very very powerful, he doesn't dominate. Two of the Jedi who came to kill him and Zannah were pretty similar in level.

The rain feat shows us Bane incredible speed and reaction speed. And it's far in excess of anything Krayt has displayed.

Originally posted by Q99
And A'Sharad's from the clone war-on era. We know more about his opponents than we do Bane's, and it is an era that put a lot of emphasis on lightsaber skill.

Bane's era focused on the saber even more so than A'Sharad's. So I'm not seeing the relevance there. Regardless, A'Sharad may be from the Jedi's Golden Age but that doesn't make him inherently superior to Bane nor does it make his opponents.

Originally posted by Q99
It's how he defeated Cade, Cade was healthy and fighting until he did it.

And it didn't give Cade time- bringing Cade back from the dead is what did that. Krayt literally killed Cade and brought him back during that duel as a means to turn him.

Ah my bad, he uses it to defeat Cade and then bring him back to life... However, he was still forced to get past Cade's defenses and forced to place a hand on Cade to perform the technique. Truthfully, he would be probably better off just used his second lightsaber (assuming he want's to kill and not capture of course).

Originally posted by Q99
Shatterpoints aren't relevant to fighting? Illusions which can leave someone helpless and can be done while dueling aren't relevant?

Not as relevant as the others. Shatterpoint only become really relevant in a saber duel when you can use it at the level of Windu and find the shatterpoints of the duel itself. Knowing that your opponents temple is a weakspot won't make any difference if you can't slip past his defenses. Illusions though are far more relevant.

Hmm well I'm not sure how to post the scans (maybe Jinsoku Takai could help me with that) but Dark Lords of teh Sith, issue 1, page 6, Naga Sadow does the same thing on a different occasion and he deosnt use the ship, but his own power as a sith mahgician/his amulet.

So Bane killing a few random Jedi and Sith around 1000 years in past is badass feats.
But Krayt killing, Abeloth, Jedi, Sith and Imperial Knights, which happens maximum 80 years later is a featless example?

Who are those plenty? There was Luke only apart from her. Tahiri nearly got mind dominated, was easily Force pulled into Abeloth's grasp. If not desire to possess Tahiri's body, there would be no chance. And implications about Saba in all books is that she is powerhouse.


Indeed, however, considering Kol Skywalker's final performance, Cade shouldn't be much weaker, if any.

Luke was restrainer and defender, while Krayt - damage dealer. It was Krayt, who drained her. It was Krayt, who pierced his arm into her body and, when he pulled his arm out, her energy began rapidly leaching out. Indeed, Luke did final blow but she would probably die anyway

Originally posted by vaderdeljisung
Hmm well I'm not sure how to post the scans (maybe Jinsoku Takai could help me with that) but Dark Lords of teh Sith, issue 1, page 6, Naga Sadow does the same thing on a different occasion and he deosnt use the ship, but his own power as a sith mahgician/his amulet.

Is he in a ship?

He uses that big ass crystal of his. The one that Aleema later uses to destroy a star.

Originally posted by ares834
He uses that big ass crystal of his. The one that Aleema later uses to destroy a star.

Sounds like the crystals that I believe power his flagship, the Corsair. I recall Kun mentioning that it has the power to fvck up stars, but then I may be imagining things.

Nvm, it's on the Corsair's wiki page: "Here is the power to wrench fire from the stars."

Yeh he is in a ship but he doesn;t use that crystal thing like he does in Fall of the Sith Empire. He literally just clasps his hand together... and Poof!

Wrong.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/5/55/Naga%27sNova.jpg

He's clearly using the crystals to aid him.

That is in FotSE not DLOTS which is feat I am referring to.

Nicely done.

Ok here it is:

Originally posted by Arhael
So Bane killing a few random Jedi and Sith around 1000 years in past is badass feats.
But Krayt killing, Abeloth, Jedi, Sith and Imperial Knights, which happens maximum 80 years later is a featless example?

Except two of these Jedi are described as legendary swordsmen. Raskta especially is noted for her nearly unparalleled bladeskill. Even more so it's the way the text describes Bane's attacks that make it impressive. It's the difference in mediums that really makes the difference. Bane is given descriptions of incredible skill and speed, something that comics can't do for Krayt. With that said, I'm not inclined to give Krayt the benefit of the doubt.

Originally posted by Q99
Who are those plenty? There was Luke only apart from her. Tahiri nearly got mind dominated, was easily Force pulled into Abeloth's grasp. If not desire to possess Tahiri's body, there would be no chance. And implications about Saba in all books is that she is powerhouse.

And yet, I wouldn't place Saba on Dooku's level. And Tahiri did do damage. By the same token, if it wasn't for Luke, Krayt wouldn't have stood a chance.

Originally posted by Q99
Indeed, however, considering Kol Skywalker's final performance, Cade shouldn't be much weaker, if any.

Kol isn't Cade. And force power doesn't have to translate down bloodlines. I mean Revan's kid isn't even force sensitive.

Originally posted by Q99
Luke was restrainer and defender, while Krayt - damage dealer. It was Krayt, who drained her. It was Krayt, who pierced his arm into her body and, when he pulled his arm out, her energy began rapidly leaching out. Indeed, Luke did final blow but she would probably die anyway

I'm unimpressed. Hurting some one when they are restrained isn't an amazing feat. And your notion that Abeloth would have died from Krayt's wound is laughably unsupported.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100713033328/starwars/images/thumb/b/bf/DenariiNova.jpg/1000px-DenariiNova.jpg

Here is the other image of Sadow performing his Supernova technique. Since it is only his hands, its impossible to see whether he's using his ship to aid him, but he is on the Corsair, so odds are that he was.

If he's on the Corsair and has been shown to require aid from crystals and meditation spheres with similar feats elsewhere, then it's pretty much a sure thing.