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http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/15297/630237-the_olympians_super.jpg

Reed Richards has come up with a simple test to separate the real Sky Fathers form the wannabes.

The rules are simple a Typical Sky father level abilities include:

A) Galaxy busting power

B) Limited reality warping (from planetary through multi - galactic, less than universal)

C) Often some type of time manipulation (timestop, time travel, etc.)

D) Usually a good degree of matter/energy manipulation (Odin with Odinforce creating planets out of nothing)

E) Often a high degree of psychic powers, often capable of affecting at least entire planets

F) Sometimes have the ability to imbue other beings with a portion of their power

G) Breaking the Law of Causality (I/e : A finger snap which normally causes sound and kinetic force could instead cause a sun explosion or a massive resurrection)

The contestants are:

1.- Amatsu-Mikaboshi
2.- Zeus
3.- World Breaker Hulk
4.- Thanos
5.- Darkseid (classic levels)

Who clears it? Who fails it?

All of them fails except Zeus.

Hulk and thanos fail

Hulk fails

Hulk , Thanos and Darkseid fail .

WBH fails.

Reed Richards soloes

All of them fail.

Skyfathers don't operate at galaxy-busting levels, excluding external power-ups, poor writing, or some obscure hyperboles (skyfathers like to boast). Skyfathers are associated with the planet Earth (or in rare cases, some other planet), and generally have dominion over some pocket-domain linked to Earth. And that is the scale of their powers, planet-wide.

So Odin is like Elder God, then.

Hulk and Thanos fail.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Hulk and Thanos fail.

Originally posted by Magnon
All of them fail.

Skyfathers don't operate at galaxy-busting levels, excluding external power-ups, poor writing, or some obscure hyperboles (skyfathers like to boast). Skyfathers are associated with the planet Earth (or in rare cases, some other planet), and generally have dominion over some pocket-domain linked to Earth. And that is the scale of their powers, planet-wide. Lulz at these assumptions. Heralds have planet busting power++
heralds>skyfather?

And your post means that WBH is above skyfather level.

Pre-retcon Beyonder once "busted a galaxy" and this is how Doom reacted to it (the pic is from the Beyonder respect thread)

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/6909/secretwars00106rd0.jpg

There you have it, Doom confirms that the gods (which Odin, Zeus, etc are) can't do such things even in their wildest dreams. The power necessary is inconceivable.

In this case,

Doom >> fanboy opinions

Because that overrides actual feats from Odin, Walker, etc...

Not to mention Doom probably considers himself a god...

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Because that overrides actual feats from Odin, Walker, etc...

Not to mention Doom probably considers himself a god...

Doom is a god

Doom is "a" god?

He is God.

my mistake

Originally posted by carver9
All of them fails except Zeus. lol let me geuss because Zeus raped Hulk badly

Originally posted by Magnon
Pre-retcon Beyonder once "busted a galaxy" and this is how Doom reacted to it (the pic is from the Beyonder respect thread)

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/6909/secretwars00106rd0.jpg

There you have it, Doom confirms that the gods (which Odin, Zeus, etc are) can't do such things even in their wildest dreams. The power necessary is inconceivable.

In this case,

Doom >> fanboy opinions Opinions?? There are many on panel feats of gods busting galaxies. not just odin.

Odin, Surtur, Seth, Walker, Shuma Gorath, Chaos King(the guy destroyed 99% of the universe) etc

Darkseid wins.

lol at hulk being on the list......

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Opinions?? There are many on panel feats of gods busting galaxies. not just odin.

Odin, Surtur, Seth, Walker, Shuma Gorath, Chaos King(the guy destroyed 99% of the universe) etc

"Skyfather" refers to the head of an earthly pantheon (or the equivalent on some alien planet, such as Sharra and K'ythri). Shuma Gorath and Chaos King arn't such skyfathers in some pantheon. Granted, Chaos King as Amatsu-Mikaboshi is a part of Japanese mythology but the Marvel version of him predates the earthly gods, in fact as an aspect of Oblivion he predates the earth itself.

BTW, can you show me an on panel feat of Odin or Surtur busting galaxies?

IMO it's highly debatable whether or not Odin could currently destroy a galaxy. How many skyfathers are on earth? How many in the galaxy? Imagine if they could all destroy galaxies? There'd be no universe left.

Anyone else wonder why he didn't just destroy the earth with his own power in Fear itself rather build up Asgard to do it?

Anyway, here's the best evidence he could destroy a galaxy:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/28640/799959-odingalaxy_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/84876/1848903-thor__188_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37499/916726-0_sut_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/35192/1827482-journeyintomystery513p05_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/35192/1827483-journeyintomystery513p18_super.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Odin/OdinvsForsung2.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l46/gaarakaku/thorv1337p024ei.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l46/gaarakaku/thorv1337p037pe.jpg

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/6253/249391-surtur0016wreckinggalaxct1_super.jpg

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
IMO it's highly debatable whether or not Odin could currently destroy a galaxy. How many skyfathers are on earth? How many in the galaxy? Imagine if they could all destroy galaxies? There'd be no universe left.

Anyone else wonder why he didn't just destroy the earth with his own power in Fear itself rather build up Asgard to do it?



that was just stupid. Odin could have worked the entire planet over by himself without even destroying it. Fraction just doesn't know how to write him. He yelled at the watcher, was constantly spitting, lost his noble nature, became bi-polar, and the Odinfamily headbutt was introduced recently used by freyja.

Thanks for the scans.

Those seem like typical examples of asgardian boasting/exaggarations; as far as I can tell there isn't an on-panel depiction of Odin or Surtur destroying a galaxy / galaxies in those scans. As opposed to the Beyonder's galaxy-busting feat which was clearly, unambiguously presented on-panel.

Asgardian stories should always be treated with caution. It goes something like this:

Odin says:
Ho! It so happened that all-mighty Odin, god of gods, came into blows with the foul lord of Muspelheim -- Surtur himself! The demon's roar extinguished a thousand stars but Odin the all-father would not cower. Nay, on that eve of Odinsday, the omnipotent Gungnir would clash against the infinite power of the foul Twilight Sword, and each strike would shatter entire galaxies to dust! Three millenia would we fight but it was the all-powerful Odin who eventually stood victorious in the middle of the destroyed Universe.

What really happened, as told by Frigga:
Yes, the boys had a brief tussle in the backyard. For maybe half an hour I was afraid they might actually crash into the house, but luckily Surtur then left Asgard to return back to his fiery realm. Yet, several asgardian households suffered some property damage and my backyard garden was completely ruined! I had to replant most of the flowers. So annoying! Luckily my husband retired to his quarters with a big barrell of ale, not to be disturbed while he composes a tale of his fight with the fire-demon, so I have the time to do some gardening.

Originally posted by Damborgson
that was just stupid. Odin could have worked the entire planet over by himself without even destroying it. Fraction just doesn't know how to write him. He yelled at the watcher, was constantly spitting, lost his noble nature, became bi-polar, and the Odinfamily headbutt was introduced recently used by freyja.

Yeah, I agree completely. The dialogue in the Mighty Thor run was really stupid. Thor and Odin kept swearing and talking like street thugs in the fight with SS and Galactus.

Originally posted by Magnon
Thanks for the scans.

Those seem like typical examples of asgardian boasting/exaggarations; as far as I can tell there isn't an on-panel depiction of Odin or Surtur destroying a galaxy / galaxies in those scans. As opposed to the Beyonder's galaxy-busting feat which was clearly, unambiguously presented on-panel.

Asgardian stories should always be treated with caution. It goes something like this:

Odin says:
Ho! It so happened that all-mighty Odin, god of gods, came into blows with the foul lord of Muspelheim -- Surtur himself! The demon's roar extinguished a thousand stars but Odin the all-father would not cower. Nay, on that eve of Odinsday, the omnipotent Gungnir would clash against the infinite power of the foul Twilight Sword, and each strike would shatter entire galaxies to dust! Three millenia would we fight but it was the all-powerful Odin who eventually stood victorious in the middle of the destroyed Universe.

What really happened, as told by Frigga:
Yes, the boys had a brief tussle in the backyard. For maybe half an hour I was afraid they might actually crash into the house, but luckily Surtur then left Asgard to return back to his fiery realm. Yet, several asgardian households suffered some property damage and my backyard garden was completely ruined! I had to replant most of the flowers. So annoying! Luckily my husband retired to his quarters with a big barrell of ale, not to be disturbed while he composes a tale of his fight with the fire-demon, so I have the time to do some gardening.

I've seen convincing arguments refuting that galaxies were actually destroyed in just about all of those scans, and I've seen convincing arguments for galaxies being destroyed in them. although I'm not interested in getting into again, as it feels like I've debated that about a million times. I go back and forth personally on whether he's a galaxy buster. I personally don't believe Odin is currently a galaxy buster, but that's just my feeling, I can't prove it. BUT I would be highly surprised if Odin ever destroys a galaxy or shows to be capable of it in a future Marvel comic.

There's just no consistent way whatsoever that skyfather-level entities like Surtur, the Serpent and so on could bust galaxies. If that was the case they would utterly destroy the Earth in a whim, in a blink of an eye. A galaxy contains hundreds of billions of starsystems, a being capable of destroying that most certainly wouldn't be found on the surface of earth fighting some earthly heroes. Captain America's punches hurt Thor but a being capable of destroying a galaxy can't take Thor out? Yeah, not gonna happen. Skyfathers are well below "galaxy-level" in power.

Originally posted by Magnon
There's just no consistent way whatsoever that skyfather-level entities like Surtur, the Serpent and so on could bust galaxies. If that was the case they would utterly destroy the Earth in a whim, in a blink of an eye. A galaxy contains hundreds of billions of starsystems, a being capable of destroying that most certainly wouldn't be found on the surface of earth fighting some earthly heroes. Captain America's punches hurt Thor but a being capable of destroying a galaxy can't take Thor out? Yeah, not gonna happen. Skyfathers are well below "galaxy-level" in power. Captain America's punches could bust galaxies. Pretty bad example.

Bottomline...Skyfather level characters busting Galaxies are bad writing and/or PIS.

These are plantary level characters people, not Celestials or Abstracts...

You know there are over 100 billion galaxies in just the visible part of the universe alone, right? Destroying a few here and there won't make much of a difference in the long run. Also claiming those galaxies weren't destroyed when scientists were confirming it, psychics and people with cosmic awareness were feeling it from all over the universe, and Thor and BRB visited the site of one later and it wasn't there anymore is kind of ridiculous. Destroying at least a small galaxy should be well within the range of most Skyfathers.

Generally destruction scale goes like this:

Heralds - Planet level to star system level
Transcendent - Star system to multi star system
Skyfather - Galaxy to multi galaxy
Elder God - Multi galaxy to dimension/threat to the universe
Cube Being - Create and destroy universes
Celestial/Abstract - Should be low multiversal to multiversal (not many feats of this for the Celestials though but powerscaling shows most of them to be this high)
High abstract - Multiverse level
MJJ/IG - Multiverse to megaverse level, eventually threaten the omniverse
LT - Can affect the omniverse
TOAA - Create and destroy the omniverse instantly

@Mike...

What Herald has destroyed a Star System?

Another question...if a universe is destroyed, how would we calculate that if we do not know the size of said universe? I think your ratings is off a bit.

Stop drinking bleach carver

Superman has cooled down stars with his breath. Thor has re-ignited dead stars. These guys can affect entire star systems. But as I've said many times before, heroes don't usually go around destroying planets or star systems.

Originally posted by carver9
@Mike...

What Herald has destroyed a Star System?

A few GLs like John... almost recreated it. Kyle recreated the DNA ship which was the size of a small star system. Nova who is weaker than Surfer destroyed a star to create a supernova shockwave. IIRC Imperiex probes did it, as did Rachel Summers. Star system is the high-end for Herald, most Heralds wouldn't be able to do it with a single attack.



Well usually unless it's stated to be a "pocket universe" or a "small universe" it's generally assumed to be the size of the RL universe, or at least many billion light-years in diameter. If it's a universe in one of the comic multiverses each one is an alternate version of the primary one, so unless it's specifically noted they should be the same size.



True. Why we need to powerscale them from the feats of other characters, or damaging things with certain durability, etc.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You know there are over 100 billion galaxies in just the visible part of the universe alone, right? Destroying a few here and there won't make much of a difference in the long run. Also claiming those galaxies weren't destroyed when scientists were confirming it, psychics and people with cosmic awareness were feeling it from all over the universe, and Thor and BRB visited the site of one later and it wasn't there anymore is kind of ridiculous. Destroying at least a small galaxy should be well within the range of most Skyfathers.


Yes, I know there are around 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe. I hope your argument isn't "Skyfathers can destroy galaxies because there are so many of them!"

If you are referring to the above scans when you say "scientists were confirming it" etc then look again. All they were saying was that things COULD happen if the fight went on. Typical exaggerations without on-panel feats. If "entire galaxies" had been destroyed then the Milky Way would've taken the highest damage due to being at the center of it, but it didn't. The energies didn't even harm the planet Earth, which is an insignicantly small part of the Milky Way.

Don't know much about others, but is the Darkseid (Pre-Crisis) as in Classic? If so, then he should be able to clear it.

It's pretty clear that according to different writers, Odin, at his highest portrayals, is consistently shown or stated or alluded to being a galactic level powerhouse. Honestly don't see him busting galaxies as PIS. Hell, the Odin Force is able to create pocket dimensions.

Originally posted by Magnon
Yes, I know there are around 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe. I hope your argument isn't "Skyfathers can destroy galaxies because there are so many of them!"

No, I was just responding to the person who said they can't because if they did there wouldn't be enough galaxies to go around. Besides the universe in Marvel and DC gets recreated/restored every few years in some event or another (like Chaos War for example) anyway.



They were saying that quasars were forming and disappearing (a quasar is a galactic core that emits way more power than a normal galaxy). They also confirmed that the laws of physics were breaking down.



Where are you getting the idea that the Milky Way was at the center of the fight?



Actually in the Infinity fight they did harm the Earth, Odin fixed it afterwards.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Where are you getting the idea that the Milky Way was at the center of the fight?

As far as I know it wasn't confirmed, but Odin, Seth, Surtur and others are related to Earth so it makes sense for the fight to take place close to Earth (either spatially or "dimensionally". Or put it another way, we have these beings like Seth and Surtur who's desire is to destroy Earth but somehow when they fight they always manage to choose a location VERY VERY far away and fail to destroy this one planet -- while inadvertly destroying HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF OTHER PLANETS instead? This doesn't add up at all.

The Marvel Earth alone has like a dozen or more skyfathers and each has a couple of equally powerful "evil" counterparts/enemies who are bent on destruction. We already know from the exoplanet search that planetary systems are not a rare phenomenon in a galaxy, neither are the planets within the habitable zone of their central stars. In this sense, "our" universe resembles Marvel's in which the existence of such planets was confirmed much earlier than the first real-world exoplanet observations. There could be up to hundreds of thousands or maybe even millions of planets within a galaxy having potential for life (and in the MU, potential for the emergence of skyfather-level beings). Millions of galaxy-busting evil beings in each galaxy, bent on destroying the galaxy and everything? Just no. Contradicted by observation.

Skyfathers are...

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Actually in the Infinity fight they did harm the Earth, Odin fixed it afterwards.

... planetary-scale beings.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Opinions?? There are many on panel feats of gods busting galaxies. not just odin.

Odin, Surtur, Seth, Walker, Shuma Gorath, Chaos King(the guy destroyed 99% of the universe) etc

To be fair though , the Chaos King was an aspect of Oblivion , pretty much a semi-Abstract . So he can't be used as an example here .

Originally posted by Magnon
As far as I know it wasn't confirmed, but Odin, Seth, Surtur and others are related to Earth so it makes sense for the fight to take place close to Earth (either spatially or "dimensionally".

The Surtur fight took place in Asgard, and AFAIK the Infinity fight took place somewhere in deep space. The scientists were implying that the epicenter of the thing was pretty far away from Earth.

Where are you getting the idea that Earth was their target? Surtur's goal was to destroy all the nine worlds - to do that he first needed to get the Eternal Flame from Asgard. Seth was trying to conquer/destroy Asgard.



So they keep each other in check. Do you really think they're going to have the Earth destroyed every week in comics?

There don't seem to be as many alien Skyfathers, there were the Skrull gods and Walker (who actually did destroy his home galaxy), but I don't really remember any others. Like most fiction, Earth is given undue importance because that's where the writers are from.



Not at all. That's just blatant downplaying in defiance of the evidence.

QFT.

And alien worlds do have "skyfathers" as in the heads of their respective pantheons. Desak was killing gods across the universe before confronting Thor and others.

The term "skyfather" as it's used tier wise is just to donate a specific class of power of beings well above the "herald" class. Just like not all skyfathers are actually gods or dieties tied directly to Earth, not all heralds are actually heralds of Galactus.

All of Mike's statements are accurate.

Not to mention that if we go by your reasoning, there are billions of Celestials so they must not be able to destroy galaxies either...

Originally posted by Magnon
Asgard, Mt. Olympus and so on are dimensions coupled to Earth. They are "near" Earth even if they are usually located at adjacent "dimensions".

I'm not buying this. They have portals to Earth, yes, but that doesn't make them "near" Earth in any meaningful way.



Midgard in Marvel is actually often used to refer to the entire 616 universe, where Earth is situated in. If Surtur tried to go about destroying that with just the power he initially had it would take him forever - remember how many galaxies there are in just the visible universe. That's why he needed the Eternal Flame from Asgard first. Not to mention, like you said, there are all of the other Skyfathers and Gods who call Earth home that could stop him. Are you denying Surtur even has the power to destroy a planet? Because that's what your argument seems to be implying.



Why? Because you say so?

Look back at the OP of this thread, it mentions Skyfathers having powers like time control, causality manipulation, reality warping, etc. If they want to avoid damaging the Earth, they can.

Really your argument if taken to its logical conclusion invalidates anyone having any power at all. Herald level characters who can destroy planets have fought on Earth all the time, and the Earth isn't destroyed. Characters that can destroy cities and mountains have fought in the middle of populated areas without wiping everyone out. It's just the way the comic world works - you can't have Metropolis be leveled every time Superman fights someone in it. These things don't invalidate the feats these characters actually have.



You yourself mentioned that there are a ton of Skyfathers on/related to Earth. Show me one time that they were all disabled at once (except for the likes of the IG saga, but that's obvious when serious shit is going down). Besides, like I said, Surtur wouldn't go around destroying random galaxies - it would take him forever to make a noticeable dent in the universe and he would eventually piss someone off like Galactus or a Celestial who would hand him his ass. He wants to try to find a way that he can destroy all the 9 worlds at once so no one can stop him.

Your argument is akin to saying:

Dr. Doom wants to conquer the world. So why doesn't he just go on a rampage blowing up buildings and attacking cities until he eventually works over the whole world?

BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE STUPID.



It's hinted Odin created the Earth and humankind so he would invest more effort into protecting them.



Well in the Seth fight, it mentioned "long dead galaxies" being destroyed, so I'm guessing that meant nobody lived there anymore. But honestly even if there was a Skyfather in one of those galaxies they destroyed, it could just be that they couldn't match up to Odin's power, or who the hell knows, they might have survived and fixed their galaxy after the fight was over. Your argument here is nothing but random speculation.

Walker was the strongest god in his galaxy and he destroyed it, he apparently killed all of the other gods that were there... comics are generally earth-centric, so the gods of other planets usually just don't measure up.



Except for the many times they have done so...



Because low-end feats automatically invalidate high-end feats, right? I guess Hulk < snakes, Juggernaut < cement, and Thor < Wolverine.



Except that Galactus, Celestials, and Watchers are on that same level or higher. Hell, Galactus recently fought Scrier and the Other and they were threatening to collapse the entire multiverse.



It's your same argument. If there are so many Celestials then they would have destroyed the Earth a long time ago, according to you.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You know there are over 100 billion galaxies in just the visible part of the universe alone, right? Destroying a few here and there won't make much of a difference in the long run. Also claiming those galaxies weren't destroyed when scientists were confirming it, psychics and people with cosmic awareness were feeling it from all over the universe, and Thor and BRB visited the site of one later and it wasn't there anymore is kind of ridiculous. Destroying at least a small galaxy should be well within the range of most Skyfathers.

Generally destruction scale goes like this:

Heralds - Planet level to star system level
Transcendent - Star system to multi star system
Skyfather - Galaxy to multi galaxy
Elder God - Multi galaxy to dimension/threat to the universe
Cube Being - Create and destroy universes
Celestial/Abstract - Should be low multiversal to multiversal (not many feats of this for the Celestials though but powerscaling shows most of them to be this high)
High abstract - Multiverse level
MJJ/IG - Multiverse to megaverse level, eventually threaten the omniverse
LT - Can affect the omniverse
TOAA - Create and destroy the omniverse instantly
Actually Celestials do have one multiversal level feat , or at least a being described as their equal has one . In F4#582 , Franklin Richards was able to briefly halt the collapse of all realities into a single time-stream . It was brief and he had to eventually let go , but its a feat nonetheless .
Also , IIRC , then a component of a lobotomized Celestial was able to negate the effects of Wanda's "No More Mutants" spell on Magneto by restoring his X-Gene .

Thank you, more evidence

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I'm not buying this. They have portals to Earth, yes, but that doesn't make them "near" Earth in any meaningful way.



Midgard in Marvel is actually often used to refer to the entire 616 universe, where Earth is situated in.

Nope, Midgard almost always refers to planet Earth. The Asgardian domain came into existence along with Earth, and is linked to Earth and the other Nine Worlds through Yggdrasil. Of all the places in the Earth's dimension it thus makes the most sense for Asgard to be "closest" to Earth. If some leftover power leak from Asgard affects the Earth's universe it should be centered at Earth.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
If Surtur tried to go about destroying that with just the power he initially had it would take him forever - remember how many galaxies there are in just the visible universe. That's why he needed the Eternal Flame from Asgard first. Not to mention, like you said, there are all of the other Skyfathers and Gods who call Earth home that could stop him. Are you denying Surtur even has the power to destroy a planet? Because that's what your argument seems to be implying.

No, what I'm implying is that Surtur doesn't have such an overwhelming galactic-wide powers that he could, while picking his teeth with his sword, as a stray-thought wipe out the entire solar system without straining himself at all. That's what a galaxy-buster would do, but Surtur would need time, effort and preparation to achieve the same.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Look back at the OP of this thread, it mentions Skyfathers having powers like time control, causality manipulation, reality warping, etc. If they want to avoid damaging the Earth, they can.

Right. So Odin doesn't want to damage Earth, but the casual destruction of countless of BILLIONS OF PLANETS and their life doesn't bother him at all? And the OTHER skyfathers on those planets just let this happen too? Totally illogical. The only reasonable answer is that skyfathers simply can't affect things at galactic scale.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Really your argument if taken to its logical conclusion invalidates anyone having any power at all. Herald level characters who can destroy planets have fought on Earth all the time, and the Earth isn't destroyed. Characters that can destroy cities and mountains have fought in the middle of populated areas without wiping everyone out. It's just the way the comic world works - you can't have Metropolis be leveled every time Superman fights someone in it. These things don't invalidate the feats these characters actually have.

Yes, ppl like Beta Ray Bill or Hulk destroying planet-scale objects is poor writing and inconsistent with their power level as established through their fights against ppl in a "I can lift trains" category (such as the Thing or Colossus). Do you grasp the size-difference between a train and a planet? Unfortunately not all the writers do; an occasional example of poor writing is just something one must accept when reading comics.

I loved the writing in the original Secret Wars because the writer seemed to mostly get the power levels right (the Wasp vs. X-men and Spider-Man vs. X-men being the most notable exceptions). Beyonder destroyed a galaxy in order to impress THE GALACTUS HIMSELF, and impressed he was. The most brilliant of heroes/villains present became almost crazy (Doom, Dr. Octopus and so on) since they could, to an extent, grasp how unprecedently massive a display of power that was. And Doom for example was already familiar with what the Earthly skyfathers could do. Furthermore, I liked the fact that the writer knew that those of LESSER intellect and education would not be as impressed about the galaxy-busting because they lack the understanding of the scale of it. Therefore the Wreckers, Absorbing Man etc. pretty much just went "wow" but that's it. The writer even knew how to keep the power level of the "herald level beings" consistent. When Owen dropped that infamous mountain on top of the heroes, it was made clear that Hulk (who has "high herald-level" strength) was well below planet-scale: he couldn't even lift a mountain but could only brace against the rock and keep a small cavity from caving-in. This is of course how it should be, if you take into consideration my previous paragraph.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You yourself mentioned that there are a ton of Skyfathers on/related to Earth. Show me one time that they were all disabled at once (except for the likes of the IG saga, but that's obvious when serious shit is going down). Besides, like I said, Surtur wouldn't go around destroying random galaxies - it would take him forever to make a noticeable dent in the universe and he would eventually piss someone off like Galactus or a Celestial who would hand him his ass. He wants to try to find a way that he can destroy all the 9 worlds at once so no one can stop him.

The skyfathers have never been shown to monitor and constantly focus their power to prevent ALL the evil entities of their and the others' pantheons from destroying the Earth. That they are doing so, is a very unfounded assumption. No, typically the "evil one" starts to rise and collect his armies, prepare for the destruction of Earth... which is soon sensed by the skyfather who then starts to ready his own forces for a war. It's not like "Phew, Surtur just sent an abstract universal destruction wave which would've destroyed the Nine Worlds and everything else within several parsecs radius in a blink of an eye, but luckily I reacted quicly and prevented it with a magic spell!" No, they operate in WAY smaller scales.


Originally posted by Endless Mike
It's hinted Odin created the Earth and humankind so he would invest more effort into protecting them.

EVERY pantheon is hinted at having created the Earth. Just the boasts and tale-spinnings so typical to the skyfathers. Such arrogance to call oneself the "all-father" when Bor and Buri (Tiwaz) had already travelled the Nine Worlds for countless of ages before Odin and his siblings were even born.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
It's your same argument. If there are so many Celestials then they would have destroyed the Earth a long time ago, according to you.

I can't believe I have to explain this to you, but w/e. That is NOT my argument, that is YOURS. A poorly-constructed straw man. My argument is that there are LOTS and LOTS of "evil" skyfather-level beings in the various pantheons, a couple for every skyfather. Say, Surtur and Ymir for Odin in the Norse mythology, Hades and Cronus for Zeus in the Greek mythology and so on and so on. A large portion of these beings are focused on the destruction of Earth and more. If they had galaxy-busting powers they would do so, very often and very effortlessly. The 616 Celestials, on the other hand, are not a force of destruction but a one of evolution. Occasionally they judge a planet unworthy and then what happens? They casually destroy that planet, regardless of what some local skyfathers think about it. Why? Because they have the power to do it . In the 616 universe only ONE celestial has ever desired wide-scale destruction, the Black Celestial. One celestial vs. countless of celestials. Much better starting point for the other celestials to keep in check than what the skyfathers are facing, if we are concerned with the numbers. And even then, the Black Celestial managed to destroy his whole time-line. Why? Because he had the power to do so . He took Galactus, made him crazy and manipulated his being so that he wouldn't become sated no matter how much he ate, and then released him on the Universe. Skyfathers lack such power. Their powers are planet-wide, no more.

Oh, and Odin didn't seem to care much about protecting the Earth in Fear Itself. Protecting Earth is in Thor's interests but Odin's primary concern is Asgard.

Originally posted by Magnon
Oh, and Odin didn't seem to care much about protecting the Earth in Fear Itself. Protecting Earth is in Thor's interests but Odin's primary concern is Asgard.

I think that can be attributed to Fraction butchering Odin's characterization . In the original Celestial-arc , Odin was portrayed as very much wanting to defend the Earth , and when in conversation with his Godhead peers , he admitted how important that "sphere" was to them .

Originally posted by Magnon
Nope, Midgard almost always refers to planet Earth.

Nope. See:

http://i48.tinypic.com/qs9zzk.jpg



They are in separate dimensions. Traditional definitions of distance don't apply.



Not necessarily. Odin would deliberately do what he could to prevent that from happening. It's also not as if Earth is the only place in the normal universe where Asgard can access and be accessed from.



Except I've already explained that:

- His goal is to wipe out the entire nine worlds, which are all separate dimensions/universes. Not just Earth.

- There are multiple powerful gods and beings on Earth that could stop him if he tried directly attacking it.

- He wants to try to set up a plan or get a power where he can wipe out all of the 9 worlds at once. That's why he was attacking Asgard in the first place, to get the Eternal Flame.



Nope. Odin's a dick like that. Earth and humanity are implied to be partially his creation after all.

Also in the Infinity fight he later fixed all the damage he had caused.



As I already explained, there are many possible reasons for that. Those Skyfathers are just not as powerful as Odin, or they live in their own dimensions and don't care what happens to the normal universe like Odin does, or they fixed the damage afterwards...

Hell, how common are alien Skyfathers anyway?

The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Walker (who actually did destroy his galaxy and defeat all of the other gods in it), the Skrull gods (I haven't seen anything to indicate they're close to galaxy level though), and the Dark Gods, which were specifically from the far end of the universe. I don't think Skyfathers not based on Earth are as common as you're making them out to be.



How it is reasonable to ignore repeated on-panel feats and statements from reliable characters that have occurred throughout the characters' history because you personally think it doesn't make sense?

Comics lead to a lot of fridge logic if you overanalyze them. That doesn't mean you get to deny canon feats.



Now I know you're just trolling. They never used planet-destroying attacks on the likes of Thing and Colossus, and the strength of those two is way above just lifting trains.



The fact you think lifting a train is Thing or Colossus' maximum is hilarious in and of itself, but what makes you think the planet is the inconsistent one instead of the lower feats?

Also you completely ignored my point.

Do you think the Hulk can only lift a train? And anything higher from him is bad writing?



What's funny is that he was later retconned to be half of a cosmic cube, and Galactus and the others were just playing with him to make him seem stronger than he was.



So you take a bit of poetic language over actual, on-panel feats, huh?



And he has many feats way higher than that, but you just choose to ignore them for the sake of downplaying.



So say some random shmuck with a spaceship armed with a planetbusting laser suddenly warps into orbit and blasts the Earth, you think that would be a smart idea with the Skyfathers around? You think they wouldn't bitchsmack him and then fix the Earth?



Except Surtur can only do something like that with the Eternal Flame, which the Skyfathers wouldn't have been able to stop, because they don't have power to block a (small) multiverse buster. That's why he was trying to get the Eternal Flame in the first place.

And even if he did somehow manage to destroy the Earth with just his base power (and avoided the subsequent ass-kicking by all of the gods and Skyfathers who survived), that wouldn't accomplish much, because he would still have the rest of the 616 universe to deal with, as well as the other 8 dimensions.



Then that applies to all of them, they all want to protect the Earth. Obviously they have a strong emotional attachment to it and its people. After all, they were worshipped by them.



Because it's not like there are other Skyfathers there to stop them, right?

Let me put it this way: Say you're a mean little kid on the beach, and a group of other kids has built a sandcastle. You can go and kick over their sandcastle, but the other kids will gang up on you and beat you up, and later they can just rebuild the sandcastle. So is it really worth it?

Why do you think Mikaboshi spent so much time amassing such a huge army of gods to attack Earth?



Yes and their power is beyond the Skyfathers.



You forgot rogue Celestials from other universes, as seen in the FF arc.

Part 2 (Continued):



No, their powers are galactic to multi-galactic in scale, with the potential to affect the universe and other dimensions. This has been repeatedly confirmed by on-panel feats, no matter what you would like to think. Destroying the entire universe and timelines is beyond galaxy level, and thus beyond Skyfather level, so I don't see what you're even trying with the Black Celestial argument here.

Besides, the same argument could be reapplied to any cosmic villains from anywhere in the universe or the omniverse. There are beings like Hunger and Asteroth who devour entire universes/multiverses, by your logic they can't do that because Earth would have been eaten already.

Earth is where most comic stories take place, so obviously the writers are not going to randomly destroy it every week. If they want to show off a character destroying planets/stars/galaxies/whatever, they'll do it somewhere else.

Originally posted by Magnon
Oh, and Odin didn't seem to care much about protecting the Earth in Fear Itself. Protecting Earth is in Thor's interests but Odin's primary concern is Asgard.

That's because he was irrationally scared of his big bro and figured the Earth was doomed no matter what.

In the other incidences he was just making sure the collateral damage didn't do much to Earth.

Busting a galaxy should be explained by "Breaking the Law of Causality"

"The user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect,or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect.
This allows one to achieve virtually anything by redirecting the selected cause to the desired effect.

A finger snap which normally causes sound and kinetic force could instead cause a sun explosion or a massive resurrection.

The user could also instantly erase anything from existence, by making it's existence the cause of it's own nonexistence.

Another possibility is the instant rewritting of a whole reality, by making Reality X (the current reality) the cause of Reality Y (a tailor-made one).

At high level, the user would be able to rewrite the laws of causality as a whole, essentially playing God."

This of course will fall into less than a universal radius.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
That's because he was irrationally scared of his big bro and figured the Earth was doomed no matter what.

In the other incidences he was just making sure the collateral damage didn't do much to Earth.

Or it could be another one of the laundry list of examples of Fraction destroying Odin's characterization .
Because Odin wasn't scared to go up against the Celestials for the sake of the Earth , even though he knew he was hopelessly outmatched (which was not the case with the Serpent) .

Maybe. Or it was just childhood trauma, his bro always gave him wedgies and such

Originally posted by biensalsa
Busting a galaxy should be explained by "Breaking the Law of Causality"

"The user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect,or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect.
This allows one to achieve virtually anything by redirecting the selected cause to the desired effect.

A finger snap which normally causes sound and kinetic force could instead cause a sun explosion or a massive resurrection.

The user could also instantly erase anything from existence, by making it's existence the cause of it's own nonexistence.

Another possibility is the instant rewritting of a whole reality, by making Reality X (the current reality) the cause of Reality Y (a tailor-made one).

At high level, the user would be able to rewrite the laws of causality as a whole, essentially playing God."

This of course will fall into less than a universal radius.

So, ermmm.....Flash/Zoom?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So, ermmm.....Flash/Zoom?

What? Do they make suns explode by snapping fingers?

Speedsters snap fingers and they produce kinetic force.

Sky Fathers snap fingers and they break the law of causality.

Skyfathers existance are not connected to earth (based on the writer)
the olympion gods all get weekened if they stay on earth to long. Except for the ones with just brute strength (hercules, ares)

So does asgardian gods.

Obviously Odin thinks a planet buster would kill the serpwnt

No, he wanted to scour the Earth on a spiritual level or something to cut the Serpent off from his power (the fear of earth)

Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, he wanted to scour the Earth on a spiritual level or something to cut the Serpent off from his power (the fear of earth)

Did Odin not destroy an entire world once , because said world got polluted by Serpent's spreading of fear , after Odin defeated Cul ?

I don't actually remember

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Nope. See:

http://i48.tinypic.com/qs9zzk.jpg


I said Midgard almost always refers to planet Earth, a single example of the opposite doesn't change that. (That's what "almost" means, that there are exceptions.) When Thor, Odin and others refer to Midgard or Midgardians they almost always mean Earth and Humans (respectively).

http://marvel.wikia.com/Midgard

Originally posted by Endless Mike
They are in separate dimensions. Traditional definitions of distance don't apply.

Not necessarily. Odin would deliberately do what he could to prevent that from happening. It's also not as if Earth is the only place in the normal universe where Asgard can access and be accessed from.

Of course, that's why I used quotation marks. In MU there is, however, a concept of "distance" between dimensions. The godly realms of Earth-sphere should be "closer" to Earth than, say, to the Andromeda galaxy.


Originally posted by Endless Mike
Except I've already explained that:

- His goal is to wipe out the entire nine worlds, which are all separate dimensions/universes. Not just Earth.

- There are multiple powerful gods and beings on Earth that could stop him if he tried directly attacking it.

- He wants to try to set up a plan or get a power where he can wipe out all of the 9 worlds at once. That's why he was attacking Asgard in the first place, to get the Eternal Flame.

Nope. Odin's a dick like that. Earth and humanity are implied to be partially his creation after all.

Also in the Infinity fight he later fixed all the damage he had caused.

As I already explained, there are many possible reasons for that. Those Skyfathers are just not as powerful as Odin, or they live in their own dimensions and don't care what happens to the normal universe like Odin does, or they fixed the damage afterwards...

Hell, how common are alien Skyfathers anyway?

How it is reasonable to ignore repeated on-panel feats and statements from reliable characters that have occurred throughout the characters' history because you personally think it doesn't make sense?

Comics lead to a lot of fridge logic if you overanalyze them. That doesn't mean you get to deny canon feats.

Comics are internally inconsistent, of course. Due to different writers, their different opinions about the characters, lack of knowledge of physics, plot-induced demands ("PIS", and outright errors and mistakes, there will be paradoxes and contradictions all the time.

Speaking strictly from the logics point of view, as soon as there's a paradox within a system then the concept of "truth" becomes meaningless. We can describe what has happened on-panel in some comic book issue and consider it to be true, such as "In Spider-Man issue XX Spider-Man beat Hulk by hitting him with a truck". However, predictive propositions such as "If they fought and Spider-Man hit Hulk with a similar truck, Hulk would go down" cannot be deduced to be true or false.

So there are two possibilities. One can either take the logically sound stance and say that there's no point in arguing about comic book characters and their abilities at all since definite truth values cannot be assigned to them. Or one could take it a step further, and pick out a consistent set of feats and showings, and say that "This is this characters' power level, these other feats are outliers and contradictions".

Returning to the topic at hand, the most consistent power level for skyfathers is planetary/global. Since you presented a metaphor allow me to do the same: Imagine you're a kid in a room with a brightly-coloured small snail or slug in the middle. You would like to protect that slug. But, there's another kid in the room with big boots who would love nothing more than to stomp on and crush that snail, indeed being hellbent on doing it. You wrestle with this other kid, rolling and stomping around the room like crazy. If this other kid, even for a second, gets close to that slug he would crush it. And you can very easily crush it yourself if you make a little mistake or your opponent causes you to do one. On occasion you would have to leave the room to eat or sleep, leaving the slug unprotected. In addition, there's another dozen of similar good kid - bad kid pairs in that room, each focused on either killing or protecting that very same slug. Amidst all that chaos, could that slug really survive? No, it wouldn't. Now, for someone with a "galaxy-busting" power level, a single planet is MUCH MUCH MUCH more easily crushed than a slug is for a kid with big boots. Earth would have no chance at all. But since it's not destroyed and recreated daily in MU, Surtur and others very likely don't have such powers.

Trying to fit together a "galaxy-busting" power level for skyfathers and the Earth's continued survival in a consistent way would necessitate a very convoluted series of explanations and excuses, some of which you have presented in your posts. As I mentioned earlier, this is not wrong in fact since there are no absolute "true" or "false" when it comes to comic book statements. However, I prefer a simpler explanation: Earth survives because the evil skyfather-level entities (and by implication their good counterparts such as Odin) do not have galaxy-scale powers. Occam's razor at work.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Now I know you're just trolling. They never used planet-destroying attacks on the likes of Thing and Colossus, and the strength of those two is way above just lifting trains.

The fact you think lifting a train is Thing or Colossus' maximum is hilarious in and of itself, but what makes you think the planet is the inconsistent one instead of the lower feats?

No trolling at all, this is just another example of me requiring internal consistency. Marvel heroes have a pretty nicely continuous set of power levels. Spider-Man is slightly weaker than Venom, Venom is slightly weaker than Ms. Marvel, Ms. Marvel is slightly weaker than Colossus, Colossus is slightly weaker than Namor (under water), Namor (under water) is slightly weaker than Thor, and so on. Unless, for example, Thor can defeat BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of Namors underwater at the same time, or Ms. Marvel can defeat BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of Venoms at the same time, then the herald-level heroes such as Thor cannot consistently have planet-busting powers.

Colossus has very rarely demonstrated anything above "train-lifting" levels of physical strength. And he has been straining to perform feats at that scale.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
So say some random shmuck with a spaceship armed with a planetbusting laser suddenly warps into orbit and blasts the Earth, you think that would be a smart idea with the Skyfathers around? You think they wouldn't bitchsmack him and then fix the Earth?

The fear of retribution plays very little role in the decisions of crazy gods of destruction.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
And even if he did somehow manage to destroy the Earth with just his base power (and avoided the subsequent ass-kicking by all of the gods and Skyfathers who survived), that wouldn't accomplish much, because he would still have the rest of the 616 universe to deal with, as well as the other 8 dimensions.

So, you are saying that Surtur with his base power (without the Eternal Flame) might not be able to destroy Earth? While you maintain that Odin has the power to destroy galaxies? Meaning that at base levels he's less to Odin than a crippled mosquito is to a guy in a bee suit?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You forgot rogue Celestials from other universes, as seen in the FF arc.

No, I didn't. I clearly specified that I meant the 616 celestials.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
What's funny is that he was later retconned to be half of a cosmic cube, and Galactus and the others were just playing with him to make him seem stronger than he was.

When the Beyonder was retconned, his galaxy-busting feat was retconned too. It was all an illusion. So while he arguably remained skyfather level or above he no longer had the power to destroy actual galaxies.

I'm with Magnon on this. Those "evidence" that skyfathers can destroy galaxies isn't evidence. No one doubts Galactus destroyed several star systems in Annihilation cause we downright saw him unleash a massive blast that destroyed everything in it's path.

Regarding the Odin vs Infinity fight, the whole thing is on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u5_Py8AkBs

Evidence contradicting Odin's galaxy destroying capabilities-

1) About 1:45 when Odin makes his allege galaxy busting feat, they even show you a wide shot of parts of the galaxy in that exact same panel and it looks pretty intact to me.

2) Immediately after this scientist are commenting and from what I gather it basically says they spot Odin and Infinity's energy signatures. So they can spot those two in the distance but not multiple galaxies getting destroyed huh? That would be like me being able to spot a boy in China from an airplane, but not noticing that China itself just got blown up. Make sense.

3) Those scientists end their conversation in very big text "such a force can DESTROY THE EARTH!" So apparently Earth's durability > multiple galaxies' durability. Right...

4) We were shown repeatedly throughout that fight that Infinity was only destroying one planet at a time. Yet he was able to overwhelm Odin. A planet buster overwhelms a galaxy buster? Yeah makes more sense.

5) Odin is the good guy here. Why would he be destroying galaxies?! Before this we only saw Infinity destroying a few planets, then supposedly Odin comes in and destroys some galaxies? Why would he do that? To help speed up Infinity's path of destruction?

6) Biggest contradiction of the bunch. This all happened BEFORE their fight even got started. Anyone else see what's so illogical about this?

Now evidence supporting Odin galaxy destroying capabilities-

"Though planets crumble... though galaxies fall... I vow by Asgard's golden gates... the prize shall ne'er be thine" - Odin

That's it? A statement about Odin's determination that happens to have the words galaxies fall in it? Does anyone have a scan of Jonah Jameson mentioning planets getting destroyed or a wheelchair bound Xavier saying "jump" and "moon" in the same sentence? Through that evidence we can deduce that Jameson can destroy planets and a wheelchair bound Xavier can jump to the moon.

Regarding this Walker fellow, I looked up his respect thread and only thing that was confirmed was that he killed all living beings in his galaxy. Nothing to say how fast he did it or what method he used. And if you insist this is evidence of galaxy destroying capabilities, then that also means Garth Ennis's Punisher is a planet+ buster.

Regarding heralds and BRB destroying planets, okay here's what I've seen from these guys so provide me with scans if I'm wrong. Silver Surfer destroyed a planet in Annihilation after he got boosted by Galactus and when he and another guy were unleashing their energy at the same time.

Terrax splits planets with his cosmic axe. Considering the guy puts all his power in that thing, that's not too surprising.

BRB destroyed a small planet (or was it a small moon) in his fight with Stardust when he took Stardust's weapon (don't know what it's called) and slammed it together with Stormbreaker. The other time I saw he had his shipped Scuttlebutt launch a bunch of nukes a planet, so not his actually power level.

So basically -

boosted Surfer combining energy with enemy = destroyed planet
Terrax putting most of his power in his weapon = split planet
BRB putting his and Stardust's weapons together = destroyed planet or moon

Okay looks like it takes a lot of effort for these guys to actually destroy a planet.

Like I've said, I've seen many decent arguments refuting every single galaxy busting feat of Odin's. I've also seen some that seem to indicate he has blown up or could blow up galaxies. If there are 10,000 star systems in the milky way with life (out of say 100-200 billion), and each has 10 skyfathers (just to keep it simple), that means there are 100,000 beings in one galaxy that can destroy it, and multiple other galaxies. Out of those 100,000, two have never fought in the galaxy and destroyed it yet? Really? Now multiply that by the billions and trillions of galaxies in the known universe. The universe wouldn't even exist anymore. Especially since Odin and whoever supposedly fought and destroyed many galaxies that they WEREN'T EVEN FROM!!!! according to some people here. So why aren't other skyfathers fighting in another galaxy destroying ours? (Andromeda for instance might have another 100,000 skyfathers, which is relatively nearby).

Sounds kind of preposterous to me. And even regardless of whether he has destroyed a galaxy in the past, I can 100% guarantee you he never will do so again in a Marvel comic book. Those days are long gone (if they even existed).

Originally posted by Magnon
When the Beyonder was retconned, his galaxy-busting feat was retconned too. It was all an illusion. So while he arguably remained skyfather level or above he no longer had the power to destroy actual galaxies.

After his retcon , Beyonder and Molecule Man engaged in a battle which warped reality on a trans-multiversal scale .
Mr Master has shown me the scans , and the LT and other Abstracts were witnessing the battle , which seems to indicate that this feat is more than just narrative hyperbole .

There was also an omniversal agency which documented the damage caused by the battle and it seems to further confirm it .

Don't really know whether the feat really stands today or not .

Guys, who is his Walker guy ? Anyone can post his feat ?

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Guys, who is his Walker guy ? Anyone can post his feat ?

Walker respect thread

The very first scans are of him offering the the souls of the life forms from his galaxy that he killed to Mistress Death.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Like I've said, I've seen many decent arguments refuting every single galaxy busting feat of Odin's. I've also seen some that seem to indicate he has blown up or could blow up galaxies. If there are 10,000 star systems in the milky way with life (out of say 100-200 billion), and each has 10 skyfathers (just to keep it simple), that means there are 100,000 beings in one galaxy that can destroy it, and multiple other galaxies. Out of those 100,000, two have never fought in the galaxy and destroyed it yet? Really? Now multiply that by the billions and trillions of galaxies in the known universe. The universe wouldn't even exist anymore. Especially since Odin and whoever supposedly fought and destroyed many galaxies that they WEREN'T EVEN FROM!!!! according to some people here. So why aren't other skyfathers fighting in another galaxy destroying ours? (Andromeda for instance might have another 100,000 skyfathers, which is relatively nearby).

Sounds kind of preposterous to me. And even regardless of whether he has destroyed a galaxy in the past, I can 100% guarantee you he never will do so again in a Marvel comic book. Those days are long gone (if they even existed).
Preach!

Not for anything but this is the exact same stance LoM had and I agreed with him 100%. But we are stuck with what's on panel, no matter how stupid. Even if the Odin galaxy busting can be debated, the Surtur galaxy busting feat isn't. Just by forging his sword he destroyed an entire galaxy. Not even the one Earth is in but some random @$$ galaxy somewhere in the universe.

@HumanMovieGuide
Then what do you make of the Surtur/Twilight fiasco? Just by forging his sword, he destroyed an entire galaxy. And he's Skyfather level.

Originally posted by zopzop
Preach!

Not for anything but this is the exact same stance LoM had and I agreed with him 100%. But we are stuck with what's on panel, no matter how stupid. Even if the Odin galaxy busting can be debated, the Surtur galaxy busting feat isn't. Just by forging his sword he destroyed an entire galaxy. Not even the one Earth is in but some random @$$ galaxy somewhere in the universe.

I agree with you. In fact, despite what I said, I think there is plenty of on panel evidence Odin has destroyed galaxies, but like I said, I think it's pretty stupid, and I would bet anyone here some actual money that Odin never has another galaxy destroying feat ever again.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I agree with you. In fact, despite what I said, I think there is plenty of on panel evidence Odin has destroyed galaxies, but like I said, I think it's pretty stupid, and I would bet anyone here some actual money that Odin never has another galaxy destroying feat ever again. watch a writer take u up on the challenge and write it in a future story just to spite u.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I agree with you. In fact, despite what I said, I think there is plenty of on panel evidence Odin has destroyed galaxies, but like I said, I think it's pretty stupid, and I would bet anyone here some actual money that Odin never has another galaxy destroying feat ever again.
Could be. I think we should all consider that at the time those stories were written, it was mostly young children/teens that read comics. Now older teens, young adults, and grown men/women read them.

I think the writers were just throwing around the word "galaxy" cause it sounded cool and children would recognize it from their science classes.

I don't get why people think its so hard to believe Odin can bust galaxies.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37499/916726-0_sut_super.jpg
It's stated that Surtur has the power to destroy a galaxy, and its a fact that the twilight sword was created by destroying a galaxy. It's hard to deny Surtur is not a galaxy buster. Odin is just as powerful as Surtur no?

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/35192/1827483-journeyintomystery513p18_super.jpg
It's stated that galaxies were shattered right here. It's not coming from Odin's mouth either, it's coming from an omnipresent narrator.

I just don't see how people can deny that he wasn't capable of destroying a galaxy.

A lot of comes from the fact that some people simply think that destroying a galaxy is too much power for a skyfather or Odin in particular.

Considering Odin's greatest fights/feats have him, on multiple occasion, fighting with galactic repercussions, I don't see how it's PIS or how anyone can just say "I don't like it/it doesn't make sense so it shouldn't count".

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Like I've said, I've seen many decent arguments refuting every single galaxy busting feat of Odin's. I've also seen some that seem to indicate he has blown up or could blow up galaxies. If there are 10,000 star systems in the milky way with life (out of say 100-200 billion), and each has 10 skyfathers (just to keep it simple), that means there are 100,000 beings in one galaxy that can destroy it, and multiple other galaxies. Out of those 100,000, two have never fought in the galaxy and destroyed it yet? Really? Now multiply that by the billions and trillions of galaxies in the known universe. The universe wouldn't even exist anymore. Especially since Odin and whoever supposedly fought and destroyed many galaxies that they WEREN'T EVEN FROM!!!! according to some people here. So why aren't other skyfathers fighting in another galaxy destroying ours? (Andromeda for instance might have another 100,000 skyfathers, which is relatively nearby).

Sounds kind of preposterous to me. And even regardless of whether he has destroyed a galaxy in the past, I can 100% guarantee you he never will do so again in a Marvel comic book. Those days are long gone (if they even existed).

Stop using logic. That's silly.

Its like asking why does North America get so much superhero action - if mutations were random (pre-HoM of course) then by statistics, China and India would be completely dominating the world.

Originally posted by zopzop
@HumanMovieGuide
Then what do you make of the Surtur/Twilight fiasco? Just by forging his sword, he destroyed an entire galaxy. And he's Skyfather level.

You mean earlier in the thread? The text downright says "Far beyond the fields we know, the core of an ancient galaxy... explodes!"

Considering the core of a galaxy is a bunch of stars tightly compressed, that should be the easiest part of a galaxy to destroy. Get a couple of them to go supernova and the rest should handle itself. Heck we even see in every panel of those pages a bunch of stars and planets survived that explosion.

Also what happened to the Surtur respect thread? I remember trekking through it a while back and they posted the fight that happened later in that story and Surtur dominated Odin without much trouble. I'm not an expert on the guy, does the Surtur have methods of powering or charging himself up? Would explain why he seems more powerful than normal both in power and in beating down Odin in that story.

I just found some Youtube videos of Surtur, maybe I could find more context there. I notice there seems to be a tendency to leave some important info out of certain feats.

For example people boats about Juggernaut withstanding a godblast from Thor. When I saw videos of said fight, not only did Thor told an ally he's sick and weakened, but the godblast itself was weaksauce that it barely drained Thor as evident how not only did Thor returned back to fighting but used several magical spells shortly after.

Another is PC Superman's infamous star system sneeze. Looked up that story and found out it was a result of the guy sucking up a whole city wide cloud of Mxy's magic sneezing dust. With that much sneezing dust, Jimmy Olsen could've probably accomplished atleast half that feat.

Or Zero Hour Parallax's universe busting feats. Yes he did it, but he did it by harnessing entropy and letting the entropy do the rest of the work. And the list goes on.

Originally posted by HumanMovieGuide
You mean earlier in the thread? The text downright says "Far beyond the fields we know, the core of an ancient galaxy... explodes!"

Considering the core of a galaxy is a bunch of stars tightly compressed, that should be the easiest part of a galaxy to destroy. Get a couple of them to go supernova and the rest should handle itself. Heck we even see in every panel of those pages a bunch of stars and planets survived that explosion.



Actually the core of a galaxy is a supermassive blackhole . And that statement from Marvel "the core of an ancient galaxy explodes" only further shows Marvel's poor scientific literacy as a black hole doesn't blow up(unless and until you count a gamma ray burst as a black hole exploding , which I doubt Marvel writers were aware of during those times) .

I get the arguments being made here but the suggestion that "because there are hundreds of sky fathers means they can't all be galaxy busters" doesn't exactly mean much. That's like saying the Hulk, Thor e.t.c can't bust planets (or seriously damage them) because they're all on Earth. Not every fight between the Hulk and Thor will be on a planetary scale, same with sky fathers. Not all their fights will rock the galaxy. In many cases,like the Odin and Seth one, they seem to be fighting on a different scale of existence; this goes for Surtur forging the Twilight Sword (he actually destroyed Beta Ray Bills galaxy doing this). If we have on-panel evidence that Odin and Surtur busted galaxies, then we have to accept it..as comic book logic (faulty it may be).

Exactly. This denial of feats is pathetic. You want something more recent? Uthana-Thoth was powerful enough to stop his universe from collapsing. Odin could match and even overpower him in battle, and only lost when he brought his two strongest lietenants to help.

Originally posted by HumanMovieGuide
Also what happened to the Surtur respect thread? I remember trekking through it a while back and they posted the fight that happened later in that story and Surtur dominated Odin without much trouble. I'm not an expert on the guy, does the Surtur have methods of powering or charging himself up? Would explain why he seems more powerful than normal both in power and in beating down Odin in that story.

I just found some Youtube videos of Surtur, maybe I could find more context there. I notice there seems to be a tendency to leave some important info out of certain feats.

If you're talking about the time Surtur invaded Asgard, Surtur's twilight sword was blocking most of Odin's power.Odin's ability to grow to the same size as Surtur(1000 feet tall) and who knows what other abilities were blocked by Surtur's twilight sword.Surtur also stated that he becomes more powerful whenever he gets nearer the eternal flame.Surtur also stated that if he lit his twilight sword, he could potentially destroy the Universe.Don't know if this is true.I'm willing to say, he might be capable of destroying the 8 realms(Earth for some unknown cosmic reason is always spared) since the Norse Pantheon has a Ragnarok cycle in the Marvel Universe.Putting logic and and physics on skyfather level beings is futile.Their source of power is either magical or cosmical.Dormammu a peer to the likes of Zeus and Odin almost destroyed the Dark Dimension just by throwing temper tantrums after losing to Dr Strange in the pincers of power.