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First off, if you think addiction is strictly a substance related issue then I suggest you watch this video first:
_-APGWvYupU

Any repetitive behaviour which an organism craves with decreasing reward and has potential long term negative effects is an addiction. If you wish to stop a habit but can't, you may be addicted. It's related to damaging dopamine receptors in the brain forcing more dopamine production for the brain to achieve the pleasure associated with that behaviour to satisfy the craving. (Try saying that all at once)

http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/your-brain-on-porn-series explains why porn is a real addiction that can affect many adolescents and adults to repeatedly masturbate at home instead of using their biological urge to reproduce.

It's very interesting as many people would consider masturbation to be perfectly normal. However, we live in a digital world full of stimulating videos which the primitive 12 year old monkey brain has not evolved to be ready for.

Porn is good for you, man.

I have childhood trauma..lol

I love sex. Im a stressful person. I would have wanted love but sadly love didnt choose me back.

I've had addictive behaviour to work as well, people (get attached to quickly) and tv..

This guy reminds me of an old adrian brody..hehe

Addictions suck and porn is one that can destroy you pretty thoroughly considering that there is so little discussion of it being a real issue. There's also the fact that it's almost impossible to completely avoid seeing it in some form and it's so easy to access. I certainly wasn't looking for porn the first time I came across it in middle school, and some ridiculously graphic porn at that. Anyway, I hope that those who need help get it before it's too late.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Addictions suck and porn is one that can destroy you pretty thoroughly considering that there is so little discussion of it being a real issue. There's also the fact that it's almost impossible to completely avoid seeing it in some form and it's so easy to access. I certainly wasn't looking for porn the first time I came across it in middle school, and some ridiculously graphic porn at that. Anyway, I hope that those who need help get it before it's too late.

I once saw a guy masturbate himself to death. Not a pretty sight.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
I once saw a guy masturbate himself to death. Not a pretty sight.
You saw it?

Were you also beating it during your observation?

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I hope that those who need help get it before it's too late.

You shouldnt say that because you dont know peoples history, you dont know the rejections the humiliations or pains they went through to become a ****, a whore or a callboy.

Often people judge without knowing, we see a **** and think she must be garbage and lower class to do what she does, we never wonder what led her to that lifestyle. I use to work with homeless youth, some did used their bodies in the wrong way. Never say you wont be in their shoes because you never know how life will turn out.

I use to tell myself that would never be me that would never be me. My parents raised me right, I went to the right schools, never dropped out never was bad but I got my heart broken alot.

I love sex. I use people and they use me. Am I better for it, probably not but I dont care about them and they dont care about me. Morality is useless in this world and people should stop pointing fingers at each other.. no one is perfect.

What the hell are you talking about dude? I'm saying I hope that people who are so addicted to porn that it is destroying their lives get help before it is too late. I'm judging no one. Doesn't sound like whatever you have is going on is making you to happy yourself.

Originally posted by rudester
no one is perfect. I am.

I'm double perfect.

I am...infinitely more perfect than anyone or anything, double stamp it, anti-quitsies?

I am infinitely more perfect than all of you, but only on days that end in 'y'.

Originally posted by parenthesis
First off, if you think addiction is strictly a substance related issue then I suggest you watch this video first:

if pornography isn't a substance, what are you claiming then?

are you saying people become addicted to the behaviour of chronic masturbation? because if so, pornography is only a facilitator, not the addiction proper. If pornography is the addiction proper, then it is a substance, as it is something outside the body that produces the effect in the brain.

Originally posted by parenthesis
Any repetitive behaviour which an organism craves with decreasing reward and has potential long term negative effects is an addiction. If you wish to stop a habit but can't, you may be addicted. It's related to damaging dopamine receptors in the brain forcing more dopamine production for the brain to achieve the pleasure associated with that behaviour to satisfy the craving.

thats... well, its not a medical definition, but ok, its manageable. Basically, you are defining addiction as some type of compulsive behaviour that one performs in lieu of potential personal harm from it.

the... the dopamine part is a bit sloppy. Technically, something doesn't have to damage them (I'd be surprised if pornography or masturbation did anyways, you are referring much more to cocaine or meth), and you are sort of mixing perseverance behaviours with learning effects on reward vs cost, but I'm being pedantic

Originally posted by parenthesis
(Try saying that all at once)

dawwwwww, muffin. Try explaining the dopamine inhibitory loops through the basal ganglia

Originally posted by parenthesis
porn is a real addiction that can affect many adolescents and adults to repeatedly masturbate at home instead of using their biological urge to reproduce.

so, just to clarify, you are saying the problem with porn is that it causes teens/adults to masturbate instead of trying to get laid?

1) that doesn't even meet your requirement for addiction, as there is no real potential harm that comes from that

2) especially for young teens, this almost seems preferential, don't you think? wouldn't you rather your 13 year old daughter masturbate than go out cruising for dick?

3) you don't see masturbation as part of a healthy sex life and a necessary part of sexual development?

4) you need to clarify if what you are talking about is addiction to masturbation or addiction to pornography. For instance, you might be able to argue that the context of viewing pornography produces some aberrant activation in the basal ganglia or amygdala not present during sex, and therefore one can engage in a healthy sex-life outside of porn, however, if the addiction is to the chemical response one gets from masturbation, they will get addicted to sex. They produce the literal, exact same activation in the brain in terms of reward, except that sex is more intense. You have basically said that someone should try to kick their morphine habit by trying heroin.

Originally posted by parenthesis
It's very interesting as many people would consider masturbation to be perfectly normal.

These "many people" would include the consensus of scientists involved in studying such things.

Originally posted by parenthesis
However, we live in a digital world full of stimulating videos which the primitive 12 year old monkey brain has not evolved to be ready for.

a-actually, the one thing the 12 year old monkey brain has literally developed for is sex. If there is a single thing that 12 year old development has readied the organism for, it is sex. Maybe not the repercussions of having a child in a modern social context, but sex? Evolution has crafted that child's mind for little else.

**************************************************


This is a really silly OP, to be frank. Addiction to anything is bad, but this seems just to be a preachy moralistic approach rather than anything concerned for an individual's psychological health. Like, it seems to suggest that the answer to porn addiction would be "go get laid", which is equally as ignorant as, but more problematic than, telling a depressed person to "just get over it"

Originally posted by Ascendancy
porn is one that can destroy you pretty thoroughly

http://www.dippedincream.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/heroin-addict.jpg

ini, do you believe in the existence of sex addiction?

Beware to witness THE TERROR that is porn addiction.....

Originally posted by Omega Vision
ini, do you believe in the existence of sex addiction?

sure

not in the way the media presents it, though. That, by in large, is just showing that power and money can get women to throw their panties at you.

sex addicts make incredibly poor choices , are at major risk of being the victim of sexual crimes, stds, etc. They can't maintain normal, non-sexual relationships, let alone a romantic relationship, and it isn't just a matter of them cheating or whatever, it is, literally, they cannot help the compulsion to have sex, even when it risks their closest social relations . Sex addicts do not like sex.

Its hilarious when someone like Tiger Woods comes out and claims sex addiction, because it almost glamorizes it. Its like some masculine power fantasy, where they are so addicted to sex that they have to have enjoyable sex every night with attractive women. Like, I hate to do a gender critique of the media , but the way society looks at "sex addiction" is essentially the most male-centric sexual fantasy one can think of, as if being a sex addict made life as though you starred in a porn.

Originally posted by inimalist
http://www.dippedincream.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/heroin-addict.jpg

WTF kind of porn is that guy watching!?

Originally posted by inimalist
http://www.dippedincream.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/heroin-addict.jpg

He needs to start using the other arm.

Originally posted by inimalist
if pornography isn't a substance, what are you claiming then? Masturbation is a behaviour, which is part of the process and the problem. It's the behaviour as well as the porn.

Originally posted by inimalist
are you saying people become addicted to the behaviour of chronic masturbation? because if so, pornography is only a facilitator, not the addiction proper. If pornography is the addiction proper, then it is a substance, as it is something outside the body that produces the effect in the brain. Masturbating to porn specifically, but not exclusively.

Originally posted by inimalist
thats... well, its not a medical definition, but ok, its manageable. Basically, you are defining addiction as some type of compulsive behaviour that one performs in lieu of potential personal harm from it. The webiste I posted, your brain on porn explains how our evolution has not adapted to the intense stimulation porn can produce and how teens and adults can masturbate for hours on porn then later suffer from erectile dysfunction and withdrawl symptoms like decreased libido or depression.

Originally posted by inimalist
the... the dopamine part is a bit sloppy. Technically, something doesn't have to damage them (I'd be surprised if pornography or masturbation did anyways, you are referring much more to cocaine or meth), and you are sort of mixing perseverance behaviours with learning effects on reward vs cost, but I'm being pedantic Porn is incredibly stimulating, and arousal is like a switch to teenagers. Surely you know that something "normal" like masturbation can eventually lead to a 1+ a day habit to anyone with the internet.

Originally posted by inimalist
dawwwwww, muffin. Try explaining the dopamine inhibitory loops through the basal ganglia Okay, you lost me.

Originally posted by inimalist
so, just to clarify, you are saying the problem with porn is that it causes teens/adults to masturbate instead of trying to get laid?

1) that doesn't even meet your requirement for addiction, as there is no real potential harm that comes from that

2) especially for young teens, this almost seems preferential, don't you think? wouldn't you rather your 13 year old daughter masturbate than go out cruising for dick?

3) you don't see masturbation as part of a healthy sex life and a necessary part of sexual development?

4) you need to clarify if what you are talking about is addiction to masturbation or addiction to pornography. For instance, you might be able to argue that the context of viewing pornography produces some aberrant activation in the basal ganglia or amygdala not present during sex, and therefore one can engage in a healthy sex-life outside of porn, however, if the addiction is to the chemical response one gets from masturbation, they will get addicted to sex. They produce the literal, exact same activation in the brain in terms of reward, except that sex is more intense. You have basically said that someone should try to kick their morphine habit by trying heroin.



These "many people" would include the consensus of scientists involved in studying such things. Looking at pornographic movies on the internet will obviously wire your brain to see that as stimulation. Socially anxious teenagers and adults would rather masturbate then go out and get laid as it's much easier for the same basic effect. Especially when there first orgasms are pretty much in front of the computer screen. Surely you understand the psychological and biological effects of "first times". It can distort the perception of sex. I'm not saying it will, but it can. This isn't like the 90s when it was a few videos and magazines teens rarely got a hold of. Your opinion on teen sex is pretty naive as well. You think not masturbating will make teens have more sex? Sorry, but there's a little bit more to sex then just plain horniness. I'm just saying.

Masturbation isn't the problem. Repetitively masturbating to pornography at your computer daily in your late teens, is. Sex and socialising go hand in hand, (hahahahahahahahaha) if the organism relies on the intense stimulation of videos at the computer and their own knowledge of their body at a stage when the rational part of the brain is undeveloped, then I don't see that person having a lot of sex (male or female). Regular sex won't be as intense or pleasurable. That organism needs images and a certain way to get off as that's how it's been their entire life.

I'm talking about the extreme here to make my case.

Originally posted by inimalist
a-actually, the one thing the 12 year old monkey brain has literally developed for is sex. If there is a single thing that 12 year old development has readied the organism for, it is sex. Maybe not the repercussions of having a child in a modern social context, but sex? Evolution has crafted that child's mind for little else. Exactly my point. Internet porn exploits this by getting them off to what isn't sex. Too much can lead to the problems stated earlier.

**************************************************


Originally posted by inimalist
This is a really silly OP, to be frank. Addiction to anything is bad, but this seems just to be a preachy moralistic approach rather than anything concerned for an individual's psychological health. Like, it seems to suggest that the answer to porn addiction would be "go get laid", which is equally as ignorant as, but more problematic than, telling a depressed person to "just get over it" I think socialising and investing in other stimulating activities would be better, but only if a person is truly addicted. True addicts to porn can't get laid, choose not too, or spend their time fantasising about porn whilst doing it. They're too content with jacking off to brazzers.

Originally posted by parenthesis
Masturbation is a behaviour, which is part of the process and the problem. It's the behaviour as well as the porn.

Masturbating to porn specifically, but not exclusively.

ok

so you are talking about someone who compulsively seeks the endorphin high from masturbation and uses porn to facilitate this

Originally posted by parenthesis
The webiste I posted, your brain on porn explains how our evolution has not adapted to the intense stimulation porn can produce and how teens and adults can masturbate for hours on porn then later suffer from erectile dysfunction and withdrawl symptoms like decreased libido or depression.

ok, you will have to be more specific about what part of that site you want me to read. The videos are by a "science teacher", most linked articles are from things like "psychology today" or, if they are real peer-reviewed articles, they are about internet addiction more broadly. Why not highlight the part of the site you want actually discussed, because I'm not going to watch a science teacher try to blather on about the Coolidge effect.

Originally posted by parenthesis
Surely you know that something "normal" like masturbation can eventually lead to a 1+ a day habit to anyone with the internet.



Originally posted by parenthesis
Looking at pornographic movies on the internet will obviously wire your brain to see that as stimulation.

not really, but the way you are wired will make porn on the internet stimulating.

Originally posted by parenthesis
Socially anxious teenagers and adults would rather masturbate then go out and get laid as it's much easier for the same basic effect.

so, you are talking about people with a social anxiety? then, by definition, we are no longer talking about chronic masturbation as the issue, are we?

Originally posted by parenthesis
Especially when there first orgasms are pretty much in front of the computer screen. Surely you understand the psychological and biological effects of "first times".

hahaha, no, please, enlighten me about "first times"

Originally posted by parenthesis
Your opinion on teen sex is pretty naive as well. You think not masturbating will make teens have more sex? Sorry, but there's a little bit more to sex then just plain horniness. I'm just saying.

actually, yes... we can talk statistically or we can talk causally, but people for sure masturbate before they have sex (correlation) and masturbation is a way adolescents develop sexually and become ready for actual sex (causation)

you have any psychology today articles that suggest otherwise?

Originally posted by parenthesis
Masturbation isn't the problem. Repetitively masturbating to pornography at your computer daily in your late teens, is. Sex and socialising go hand in hand, (hahahahahahahahaha) if the organism relies on the intense stimulation of videos at the computer and their own knowledge of their body at a stage when the rational part of the brain is undeveloped, then I don't see that person having a lot of sex (male or female). Regular sex won't be as intense or pleasurable. That organism needs images and a certain way to get off as that's how it's been their entire life.

here is where it just becomes obvious you have no idea what you are talking about. The reason one becomes addicted to chronic masturbation is the chemical release. If sex also provides that release, they risk addiction to sex.


Originally posted by parenthesis
I'm talking about the extreme here to make my case.

no, you are talking as if being shy or socially anxious is an addiction, which is silly


Originally posted by parenthesis
Exactly my point. Internet porn exploits this by getting them off to what isn't sex. Too much can lead to the problems stated earlier.

/facepalm

so you agree with my point suggesting there is nothing to be worried about. good, case closed

Originally posted by parenthesis
I think socialising and investing in other stimulating activities would be better, but only if a person is truly addicted. True addicts to porn can't get laid, choose not too, or spend their time fantasising about porn whilst doing it. They're too content with jacking off to brazzers.

you don't see how what you have said in this paragraph is internally inconsistent?

Originally posted by inimalist
ok

so you are talking about someone who compulsively seeks the endorphin high from masturbation and uses porn to facilitate this



ok, you will have to be more specific about what part of that site you want me to read. The videos are by a "science teacher", most linked articles are from things like "psychology today" or, if they are real peer-reviewed articles, they are about internet addiction more broadly. Why not highlight the part of the site you want actually discussed, because I'm not going to watch a science teacher try to blather on about the Coolidge effect.

http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/you-evolved-to-be-hooked-on-porn

This article. I apologise for the science teacher language, but instead if you just focus on what the article states, we can have a debate. In particular:



Other interesting quotes in said article




Originally posted by inimalist
awehuhs

I'm not sure I trust Scott Adams as an authority on future human psychology.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'm not sure I trust Scott Adams as an authority on future human psychology. I just want a debate. ermm

Originally posted by parenthesis
This article. I apologise for the science teacher language, but instead if you just focus on what the article states, we can have a debate. In particular:


ok, there isn't much to argue there, except, someone with a masturbation addiction in that way would be at intense risk for sex addiction.

This is literally the case of weening the morphine addict off on heroin.

Originally posted by parenthesis
I just want a debate. ermm

If the debate is "can you be addicted to porn?" then I'd say yes. You can get addicted to anything.

Yourbrainonporn seems like more of an issue to me. Pop psychology is at least as bad as other kinds of pop science, often worse because people feel more comfortable making up whatever they want.

A lot of these citations are from sources with little to no backing. Just to take one example they state that men are masturbating "50 to 500 percent more than they would without the internet". First of all that's a pretty huge range so the experiment must have had a very low sample size to work with. Of course if you track down the source it turns out that Ian Kerner made that statistic up off the top of his head, there's no real source for it at all. Anyone willing to take that kind of source at face value (apparently Popular Psychology in this case) has extremely limited credibility in my book.

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, there isn't much to argue there, except, someone with a masturbation addiction in that way would be at intense risk for sex addiction.

This is literally the case of weening the morphine addict off on heroin.

So are fleshlights methadone in this metaphor?

Only skimmed through the thread, but I can't see porn being an addiction unless someone needs it to masturbate/orgasm, if you just prefer to watch porn when taking care of yourself, it's likely just that, a preference.

As a parent of young children though, the extreme variety of porn that is easily accessible and or free now is troubling. As a teen, I had access to a couple VHS tapes and some magazines, which was risque enough. Nothing of the likes that can be found now.

Thankfully, there are net-blocking programs one can install.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So are fleshlights methadone in this metaphor?

lol, I know its a joke, but methadone is actually a good indicator of exactly what I am talking about.

Addicts need that for the rest of their life, and relapse is more frequent than not. As long as those same brain areas are lighting up, you can easily "shift" the addiction.

wouldn't the fleshlight have to be less enjoyable to work in this metaphor though?

Originally posted by Robtard
Only skimmed through the thread, but I can't see porn being an addiction unless someone needs it to masturbate/orgasm, if you just prefer to watch porn when taking care of yourself, it's likely just that, a preference.

I agree mostly with this, other than to say, there is an addiction that would be marked by a different clustering of behaviours. People who literally would skip work to stay home and masturbate, or have to do it in public (not because of a fetish, but because of a compulsion) or do it at work.

I'd also suspect the people who do it compulsively are not really getting off in the same way as someone who just prefers to take care of themselves. In the same way crack fiends don't necessarily like crack, someone who suffers from chronic compulsive masturbation probably isn't really enjoying themselves.

Does anyone see how dangerously overstimulating internet porn videos can be? There's millions, probably billions of videos out there.

Originally posted by parenthesis
Does anyone see how dangerously overstimulating internet porn videos can be? There's millions, probably billions of videos out there.

what do you mean by "overstimulating" and in what way are they "dangerous"

A person doesn't become a sex addict by having particularly stimulating sex.

Originally posted by parenthesis
Does anyone see how dangerously overstimulating internet porn videos can be? There's millions, probably billions of videos out there.

IMO, you think you masturbate too much and blame porn for this perceived "problem".

Originally posted by inimalist
what do you mean by "overstimulating" and in what way are they "dangerous"

A person doesn't become a sex addict by having particularly stimulating sex. Porn offers intense stimulation at the click of a button. I can click on a shit load of kinky porn to get off, and a simple picture of cleavage doesn't do it for me unless I give myself a break.

Someone who has spent 3 or 4 years jacking off to some intense shit on the internet having to move on to more intense porn will probably find sex tiresome and boring, or suffer ED in their 20s or may only get off to certain kinds of videos. This is the theory.

FTWC, mine works perfectly fine.

Originally posted by Robtard
IMO, you think you masturbate too much and blame porn for this perceived "problem". Actually I'm just curious about the 90 day cleansing YBOP talks about (That's no masturbation for 90 days) and I wanted KMCs opinion on porn. I didn't realise how defensive y'all would be.

www.reddit.com/r/nofap contains testimonies of users who are partaking in the 90 day challenge and the stories they tell are pretty eye-opening for anyone interested.

Originally posted by parenthesis

Actually I'm just curious about the 90 day cleansing YBOP talks about (That's no masturbation for 90 days) and I wanted KMCs opinion on porn. I didn't realise how defensive y'all would be.

www.reddit.com/r/nofap contains testimonies of users who are partaking in the 90 day challenge and the stories they tell are pretty eye-opening for anyone interested.

Sounds silly, imo. If you're addicted to masturbating, it very could not be the porn. How do they come to these conclusions to begin with? Porn = masturbation-addiction.

Who's being defensive now? It was just my observation, lower the gun. I certainly don't care how much or little you masturbate now.

KRzf3ghIZJI

Originally posted by Robtard
Sounds silly, imo. If you're addicted to masturbating, it very could not be the porn. How do they come to these conclusions to begin with? Porn = masturbation-addiction.

Who's being defensive now? It was just my observation, lower the gun. I certainly don't care how much or little you masturbate now. Could not be the porn? Masturbating to thoughts of your partner are not a problem as far as anyone's concerned, but masturbating to memories of porn of any kind is still bad as YBOP and NoFap are concerned as it's artificial. It's associating biological urges with artificiality. Do you encourage it?

Originally posted by parenthesis
Porn offers intense stimulation at the click of a button. I can click on a shit load of kinky porn to get off, and a simple picture of cleavage doesn't do it for me unless I give myself a break.

Someone who has spent 3 or 4 years jacking off to some intense shit on the internet having to move on to more intense porn will probably find sex tiresome and boring, or suffer ED in their 20s or may only get off to certain kinds of videos. This is the theory.

FTWC, mine works perfectly fine.

are there any medical studies that have noted a significant increase of ED in male populations in their 20s or early 30s? not even if it is attributable to porn, just, is this actually even a thing that is occurring?

also, are you suggesting ED, or are you suggesting they are only turned on by porn? someone with ED won't get an errection to porn and someone who can only become errect with porn does not have ED.

Originally posted by parenthesis
Porn is incredibly stimulating, and arousal is like a switch to teenagers. Surely you know that something "normal" like masturbation can eventually lead to a 1+ a day habit to anyone with the internet.

If you masturbate just once or twice a day, I think you'll be alright.

One of the better "addictions" to have, like, in how it doesn't affect anything negatively..

Originally posted by inimalist
are there any medical studies that have noted a significant increase of ED in male populations in their 20s or early 30s? not even if it is attributable to porn, just, is this actually even a thing that is occurring?

also, are you suggesting ED, or are you suggesting they are only turned on by porn? someone with ED won't get an errection to porn and someone who can only become errect with porn does not have ED. I said OR.

There are testimonies on nofap of people who claim ED or claim to only get off to certain kinds of porn and it takes them an awful lot. They're people who wanked 1+ a day since they started. As for stats, internet porn addiction is not recognised as a serious issue.

Originally posted by parenthesis
Could not be the porn? Masturbating to thoughts of your partner are not a problem as far as anyone's concerned, but masturbating to memories of porn of any kind is still bad as YBOP and NoFap are concerned as it's artificial. It's associating biological urges with artificiality. Do you encourage it?

Yes, could not be. Unless you have some study that proves 'porn causes masturbation addiction'? Please post.

So it's okay to masturbate; just to specific mental images or material. You don't see some clear bias against porn going on here? How is masturbating to porn "artificial", but masturbating to thoughts and/or pics of your sex-partner(s) not? Sexual pics/movies of one's partner(s) is essentially pornography.

Do I encourage masturbating to porn? I don't encourage or discourage it. If someone prefers to self-stimulate to porn, that's their choice. For one thing, there's no risk of STDs. That's a plus.

Originally posted by Bardock42
If you masturbate just once or twice a day, I think you'll be alright.

One of the better "addictions" to have, like, in how it doesn't affect anything negatively.. Apart from your libido. 2 days without wanking and I'm vastly more energetic than if I had 4 or 5 wanks in that time.

Idiotic bias towards porn? Have you read the thread title?

Originally posted by parenthesis


Idiotic bias towards porn? Have you read the thread title?

So you're going to dodge my questions with a stupid question?

Originally posted by Robtard
Yes, could not be. Unless you have some study that proves 'porn causes masturbation addiction'? Please post.

So it's okay to masturbate; just to specific mental images or material. You don't see some clear bias against porn going on here? How is masturbating to porn "artificial", but masturbating to thoughts and/or pics of your sex-partner(s) not? Sexual pics/movies of one's partner(s) is essentially pornography.

Originally posted by parenthesis
Apart from your libido. 2 days without wanking and I'm vastly more energetic than if I had 4 or 5 wanks in that time.

I don't think that has a scientific basis.

Originally posted by parenthesis
I said OR.

my mistake

Originally posted by parenthesis
There are testimonies on nofap of people who claim ED or claim to only get off to certain kinds of porn and it takes them an awful lot. They're people who wanked 1+ a day since they started.

so, a website that is run by an individual whose only accredation appears to be that he is, ambiguously, a "science teacher", with a clear bias against pornography, also contains a number of unprovable anecdotal stories about how people think that porn gave them ED?

forgive me for being unimpressed. I did a quick search on pubmed going back to '98, and I found nothing about an increase in ED over the past decade, and studies that have looked at ED in people in their 20s suggest things like hypertension or diabetes as the primary causes. some studies looked at the fact young men are more likely to suffer ED due to psychological reasons, but these are things like performance anxiety, not being "bored".

Originally posted by parenthesis
As for stats, internet porn addiction is not recognised as a serious issue.

even if I accept that premise, which I don't, ED is, and if porn were causing some epidemic of asexual men who can't he it up without 4 browser windows open, it would have been picked up on, especially given we are talking about a population where this would be entirely problematic.

Originally posted by Robtard
So you're going to dodge my questions with a stupid question? ....The fact that it's a person you know, not porn. The fact that there's other emotional stimulation going on.

....................Porn of that person is porn, yes.

Originally posted by parenthesis
....The fact that it's a person you know, not porn. The fact that there's other emotional stimulation going on.

....................Porn of that person is porn, yes.

So now it okay to masturbate to porn, as long as it's a certain kind of porn.

You don't see a clear bias now?

because it is that emotional attachment that evolution designed our sex drive for, duh!

Originally posted by inimalist
my mistake



so, a website that is run by an individual whose only accredation appears to be that he is, ambiguously, a "science teacher", with a clear bias against pornography, also contains a number of unprovable anecdotal stories about how people think that porn gave them ED?

forgive me for being unimpressed. I did a quick search on pubmed going back to '98, and I found nothing about an increase in ED over the past decade, and studies that have looked at ED in people in their 20s suggest things like hypertension or diabetes as the primary causes. some studies looked at the fact young men are more likely to suffer ED due to psychological reasons, but these are things like performance anxiety, not being "bored".



even if I accept that premise, which I don't, ED is, and if porn were causing some epidemic of asexual men who can't he it up without 4 browser windows open, it would have been picked up on, especially given we are talking about a population where this would be entirely problematic. I don't see it as an epidemic. But you're right, it isn't anywhere as bad as my original post implies.

However, there are extreme cases, and I believe it could get worse.

Not what I said.

Originally posted by parenthesis


Not what I said.

You said it's alright if it's material based on someone you know/have a connection with and you agreed that that material would still be porn.

Ergo, it's alright to masturbate to certain kinds of porn. You don't see a clear bias from this guy?

Originally posted by Robtard
You said it's alright if it's material based on someone you know/have a connection with and you agreed that that material would still be porn.

Ergo, it's alright to masturbate to certain kinds of porn. You don't see a clear bias from this guy? YBOP states that internet pornography can lead to habitual masturbation, which will lead to an addiction of artificial stimulation.

If you think this is an "idiotic bias" then I believe you've missed the point completely.

Originally posted by parenthesis
YBOP states that internet pornography can lead to habitual masturbation, which will lead to an addiction of artificial stimulation.

If you think this is an "idiotic bias" then I believe you've missed the point completely.

Which you've gone round and round without supporting, as inimiliast just recapped above.

Considering they're specifically targeting "internet porn" and not other facets of pornography or pornography as a whole, I don't think I missed the point at all. The bias is clear.

The case against internet pornography is biased because it focuses on internet pornography.......

My fault for not saying internet in everyone of my post.

Originally posted by parenthesis
YBOP states that internet pornography can lead to habitual masturbation, which will lead to an addiction of artificial stimulation.

... habitual masturbation IS THE ADDICTION...

this is like: Man, you shouldn't take heroin because it will make you addicted to needles.

EDIT: also, I'm pissed we didn't get to talk more about dopamine, or foraging behaviours in rats... RABBLE!

Originally posted by inimalist
... habitual masturbation IS THE ADDICTION...

this is like: Man, you shouldn't take heroin because it will make you addicted to needles.

EDIT: also, I'm pissed we didn't get to talk more about dopamine, or foraging behaviours in rats... RABBLE! Oh. Well, yeah. That. But the problem is porn is the culprit, the perpetrator.


We still can. I'd rather we did actually.

Originally posted by parenthesis
The case against internet pornography is biased because it focuses on internet pornography.......


Indeed. Now that would be fine in of itself, if what you put forth supported the claims besides some guy thinking it and some people saying "yeah, I think I have an internet porn addiction".

Originally posted by Lestov16
KRzf3ghIZJI

I will say that technically inimalist is right in that the people are not addicted to pornography, they are addicted to the high that comes from the release of orgasm. If they had a willing sexual partner there to give them release multiple times a day they would still be in the same situation. There's nothing healthy about needing that fix so badly that you repeatedly ignore obligations and social relationships in order to get an orgasm.

As to the unhealthy aspect of porn that stems from the objectification. The viewer is turning the people in the images into nothing but objects that exist for his or her own pleasure. Porn is a problem in that aspect the same way that prostitution is. For that matter it's no different than a junkie robbing and killing someone to get money for a fix: the victim isn't a person, just an object that is a means to obtaining the resources necessary for drugs.

Kind of going off on a tangent but however people want to spin it pornography can and often does become unhealthy for the viewer. It also does nothing to help someone to learn what an intimate sexual relationship is. Thinking of oneself or partners as only a means to an end won't take a person anywhere good.

The other thing with chronic masturbation, in this case facilitated by porn, is that there's nothing good about getting "high" just for the sake of it. It is the same issue that can lead to alcoholism and other addictions: pleasure for the sake of pleasure. Instead of having a drink to celebrate accomplishing something, such as a productive week at work, or masturbating for a bit of pleasure at the end of exams, the person uses the behavior as a habitual means of relaxation or stimulation having done nothing to "earn" it. That in and of itself is a pretty long side discussion as well, so I'll end it there.

Porn is not the culprit. All anybody has to do is visualize their desired pleasure to fap to it. It's not some new thing brought on by the modern era. It's part of our biological nature. How do you think people of the past masturbated, before their were even cameras?

Originally posted by Robtard
Indeed. Now that would be fine in of itself, if what you put forth supported the claims besides some guy thinking it and some people saying "yeah, I think I have an internet porn addiction". That's not exactly what happened. He made a case about sex addiction, then people came to him with stories of their porn habits, and then he did some research.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
inimalist is right

/thread

Originally posted by parenthesis
That's not exactly what happened. He made a case about sex addiction, then people came to him with stories of their porn habits, and then he did some research.

It's pretty much exactly what happened, as what I said and what you said are virtually the same. I happened to word it in an assholeish manner.

Edit: Just curious, do you think you have or had an 'internet porn masturbation addiction'?

Originally posted by Robtard
It's pretty much exactly what happened, as what I said and what you said are virtually the same. I happened to word it in an assholeish manner.

Originally posted by parenthesis


See, you think you're clever, but you're not. Oh well.


Still curious though:

Originally posted by Robtard

Just curious, do you think you have or had an 'internet porn masturbation addiction'?

No, but I participated in the nofap challenge. IMO, not masturbating is better than masturbating as I can use that energy on other things.

Originally posted by parenthesis
No, but I participated in the nofap challenge. IMO, not masturbating is better than masturbating as I can use that energy on other things.

90 Days?

Well, if not masturbating works better for you, more power to you.

in which inimalist describes why YBOP is actually probably evil :

Ok, so the first thing I want to present is the idea of addiction as a symptom rather than a cause. That is basically psycho-babble for the idea that an addiction forms in response to other issues within an organism's environment. Not that I'm arguing biological addiction isn't a thing, just that in its purist form, what we call an addict almost always has behaviour issues rooted in something the addiction spawned from.

I'd put it best in a sort of "stress-relief" model of behaviour. Something like hunger or pain could be thought of as causing "stress" to the system, whereas eating or moving away from the painful stimuli would be thought of as "relief" (yes, I am aware I am paraphrasing from other, actual scientific things; plagiarism is good). To really become addicted to something, it generally needs to provide some degree of relief from a stress in your life. If porn addiction works like other addiction, and YBOP explicitly argues it does, this would indicate that individuals suffering from porn addiction are really simply compensating for other stresses in their lives. parenthesis has mentioned social anxiety as an underlying cause, which is possible, among other things, but YBOP doesn't really seem to address these. Rather, it seems to just repeat over and over how bad the porn you compulsively watch it and just how addicted to it you are and how silly and stupid you should feel for not being part of the "noFap" crew. Their "tools for change" section looks like it was written by a primary school homeopath, whereas they go to pains in other sections to try and look scientific, and there includes only the smallest mention that you might want to get some counseling http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/tools-for-change]. There is nothing that looks even remotely like modern forms of cognitive behavioural therapy or any modern form of psychological assistance. Let me emphasize a point about real, problematic forms of addiction: the very first thing done for someone with substance abuse or other addictive illnesses is getting them into therapy or an in-patient center. It deserves somewhat more attention, I would say. However, if YBOP were actually an evil site peddling some bogus agenda, this would make more sense, no?

Which directly brings me into my next point. Substance abuse has a relapse rate of, iirc of course, close to 80%, anyways, its high. Among all their stories and posts by Dilbert creators or self-congratulatory "I noFapped for 700 years!" themes, there seems to be nothing about the actual psychological issues associated with not simply quitting the addiction, but maintaining that way. Not seeing even a mention of that type of thing will have clear effects on an addict who is backsliding. Not that this is an endorsement of AA or NA or whatever, but there is a reason they have you hook up with a sponsor. When you have an urge, you need to talk to someone who has been there and knows we are all human and have our flaws, but that we must overcome them. Rather, someone who opens YBOP in search of aide, will be greeted with this:

http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/okay-newbie-guys-what-it-takes-listen-man-and-quit-screwin



demeaning, trivializing, outright insulting at times and total bullshit. No support number to call, no links to addiction lines, nothing. I can practically feel Scott Adams' antiquated ideas about gender bleeding through my monitor. Again, if this were some evil site pushing a bullshit agenda, totally understandable.

ok, now, I know what you are thinking:



Well, here is the thing. parenthesis, you know how, after I described all the ways science says ED happens, you said this:

Originally posted by parenthesis
I don't see it as an epidemic. But you're right, it isn't anywhere as bad as my original post implies.

However, there are extreme cases, and I believe it could get worse.

Meaning that, you admit, porn or masturbation addiction causing ED would be an extreme case, and you downplayed its prevalence by saying it wasn't an epidemic. In fact, you made no effort to challenge the notion that internet pornography is not significantly adding to the rate of ED.

By your own admission then, you are saying that the majority of 20 year old ED sufferers are not suffering ED due to a porn addiction. Therefore, the majority of young ED sufferers who stumble upon this website are not likely to be suffering due to porn. To be fair, in the middle of their own home diagnostic test for porn-related ED, they do mention to see a urologist (http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/porn-induced-ed-start-here), but again, it is a flippant mention, and they do not recommend you see a doctor if you have porn-related ED. This science teacher is convinced he is qualified enough to treat your penis. So, that means, without doubt, there are people suffering from ED due to diabetes, heart disease, hypertension (any of which may or may not be diagnosed), who now think it is due to their porn use, and are going to make major changes in their lifestyle in an attempt to cure a problem they don't have. Additionally, of course, their real problem goes untreated, and possibly the individual misses an early warning sign of heart disease or whatever. if YBOP were actually an evil site peddling some b... you get the drill.



Ok, so remember how I said that most ED in 20 year olds is caused by psychological factors, like performance anxiety. Now imagine someone quits porn but their performance doesn't improve, even though they are explicitly told it will. You are now causing a person ED through psychological mechanisms, which will outlast the other physiological issues that may eventually be taken care of.



Of course! thanks for asking

So, you now have an individual who has a working penis, but YBOP induced ED http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/porn-pseudoscience-and-%CE%B4fosb]. Recall the "stress-relief" model of addiction I mentioned above. What might provide a guilt free, judgement free way for this individual to release the stress of sexual desire without the anxiety of performing in front of another person?

no...

****ing...

way...

anyways, ya, blah blah what you would expect if they were evil people shilling some propaganda yadda yadda

The other thing about a sponsor for AA and the like is not just having someone who's been there, it's that you have to focus on something other than your addictive behavior. Even just a few minutes paying attention to a discussion with someone else may be enough to help put the craving off for the time being so long as you aren't functionally dependent on the chemical high.

This thread has a distressing lack of pornographic images in it. I'm leaving.

Originally posted by inimalist
Its hilarious when someone like Tiger Woods comes out and claims sex addiction, because it almost glamorizes it.

It pretty much ruined his life. The media did far from glamorize it. If anything, it made people take the "condition"* seriously instead of thinking of it being a back-alley self-help group thing that weirdos do. "Even big name, kind, celebrities can get this? This must be a serious problem."

Originally posted by inimalist
Its like some masculine power fantasy, where they are so addicted to sex that they have to have enjoyable sex every night with attractive women.

But here's the problem: almost all of the women Tiger got it on with were crack-ho caliber while his wife was smokin'. For many people*, it showed that his "sex-addiction" problem was so bad that he'd hump anyone.

Originally posted by inimalist
Like, I hate to do a gender critique of the media , but the way society looks at "sex addiction" is essentially the most male-centric sexual fantasy one can think of, as if being a sex addict made life as though you starred in a porn.

What kind of news programs were you watching?

This perspective is weird/contrary to what I observed. They made him out to be scum who viewed women as sex-objects. A misogynist, ungrateful, adulterous, lascivious, etc. The only thing I saw of it, in the media, is it made it out to be a disease like leprosy but it was a disease one could help and had a choice concerning. And that "you may have this problem, too, and should seek help for it".

Things like "misogynistic bastard", "womanizing *sshole", and "using a real disease to cover up his preventable perversions" are things that were said.





*My personal opinion is much different from what the media portrayed. I did not see a sex addict. Sex addiction is a superficial problem that has other problems motivating it. Sex Addiction is superficial, imo. There's other things that need to be addressed/assisted with other than the therapy sessions. I liken it to putting a band-aid on a freshly popped zit...but the zit was only a dermal manifestation of cancer beneath the surface. The "iceberg" argument?

Originally posted by dadudemon

But here's the problem: almost all of the women Tiger got it on with were crack-ho caliber while his wife was smokin'. For many people*, it showed that his "sex-addiction" problem was so bad that he'd hump anyone.


Or that he's into those kinds of "trashy" women and/or what they'd do for him from a purely sexual standpoint.

Could also be he thought going after "crack-ho caliber" women, as you put it, it was the safest from a 'don't get caught' POV.

Originally posted by Robtard
Or that he's into those kinds of "trashy" women and/or what they'd do for him from a purely sexual standpoint.

Could also be he thought going after "crack-ho caliber" women, as you put it, it was the safest from a 'don't get caught' POV.

Just looked up some of them. Some of them were quite hot. Some looked like Tranny's. Tiger has a fetish. 313

Originally posted by dadudemon
Some looked like Tranny's.

Who's this Tranny person? Is it a nickname?

"Tranny" is considered an offensive term, we shouldn't be using it as good citizens of this world.

Originally posted by Bardock42
"Tranny" is considered an offensive term, we shouldn't be using it as good citizens of this world.

Only a tranny would care and they're not really people.

Originally posted by Robtard
Only a tranny would care and they're not really people.

Shame on you!

Originally posted by Bardock42
Shame on you!

You're just mad because you watch tons and tons of Tranny porn.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
The other thing about a sponsor for AA and the like is not just having someone who's been there, it's that you have to focus on something other than your addictive behavior. Even just a few minutes paying attention to a discussion with someone else may be enough to help put the craving off for the time being so long as you aren't functionally dependent on the chemical high.

what if ur eye wonders?

Eyes aren't self-aware.

lol u'd think that but the mind is more powerful then u think; aleast my eyes wonder.. habits die hard and for someone with an addiction theres no point of saving them or distracting them unless its what they want. No one can make a person change, we can influence and push maybe even force but sooner or later they will go back to their ways, its because thats what they want.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You're just mad because you watch tons and tons of Tranny porn.
Tranny-on-girl is his favorite kind.

Originally posted by rudester
what if ur eye wonders?

If your sponsor can't keep your attention for a few minutes you two don't have have a very good rapport to say the least.

well, to be fair, there is a reason why AA and NA have a relapse rate of something like 80%. sponsors help, I'm sure, but in most cases won't keep someone away from their addictions.

That part makes sense. As mentioned, people only change if they want to. The sponsor is only there to help facilitate that if the person is willing to make the change in him or herself. I was just saying that if they can't connect then there's something wrong to begin with.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Tranny-on-girl is his favorite kind.

Not a bad genre. It takes away the intimidatory nature of a male being present and allows for dually-feministic imagery to be presented. Basically, it allows the viewer to have some cake and eat it too.


And, yes, I just pretended some niche porn was like a fine book written in the romantic period. ninja

As accurate as it may be I've always found AA style "once an addict always an addict" talk to be rather disturbing. It feels like they're trying to force dependency on the program.

I wonder if any porn stars I've jacked off too are dead?

Originally posted by rudester
I wonder if any porn stars I've jacked off too are dead?

Sig-worthy material right here, guys.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
As accurate as it may be I've always found AA style "once an addict always an addict" talk to be rather disturbing. It feels like they're trying to force dependency on the program.
And isn't their ultimate belief that the only way you can overcome your addiction is to accept Jesus Christ as your savior?

No, just a "higher power." Your focus for beating your addiction can literally be anything that helps you to do so.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
No, just a "higher power." Your focus for beating your addiction can literally be anything that helps you to do so.

what if u have a sex addiction? what then?
I once went on a date had sex then because it wasn't good enough that same evening I met up with someone else and had sex again.. what would you tell a person who has a sex addiction to help that person?

What if you have a God addiction?

Well then you're blessed.

Originally posted by rudester
what if u have a sex addiction? what then?
I once went on a date had sex then because it wasn't good enough that same evening I met up with someone else and had sex again.. what would you tell a person who has a sex addiction to help that person?

Hey, I don't run AA or anything, just answering the question. As to yours though, the only way that's going to change is if you want it to and if you're willing to open up to someone who can help you. Your best bet would be a practicing sex therapist, possibly one that you can meet with both one on one and in a group setting so that you'll have accountability and so that you can talk with other people who are trying to change as well. While it's possible to do it on your own it's very hard to be completely honest with yourself and most people who succeed do so because they have others to help support them and call them on their crap

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Well then you're blessed.

use funny, use funny...