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vs

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/263/e/1/monster_aizen_by_hellsingninja-d2z5yo3.jpg

The fight takes place at the Valley of the End.

Current incarnation of Madara.

Round 1: Madara has his Edo Tensei Body and Aizen has all his powers.

Round 2: No regeneration for either of them.

Make speed equalized, 'cause Madara is blitzing this.

1. Meteor Double Meteor parm_k-monster

2. Madara blitzes. Even with the same speed, Aizen's strongest attack is between Sage!Naruto and Pain's max CT.

Was thinking that Aizen can get in edge-wise with his illusions, but for some reason forgot what the Sharingan is famous for..

I don't think so. When has Madara shown himself to be incredibly fast? IIRC Madara has shown that he's not as fast as Raikage. Other than that I don't recall him doing anything that puts him overwhelmingly above Aizen.

Aizen could probably destroy those meteors.

Naruto is speedwise above Bleach, apparently.

Someone get around to looking at the mach 11 Rasenshuriken calc.

Don't remember the small bits, was Madara notably slower than A? Ichico and Aizen were put at Mach 10, Sage!Naruto and Pain at Mach 11. If Madara isnt quite as fast as A, but he's certainly above Sage mode.

From what I saw all it said was that Sagemode Naruto was Mach 11.

I haven't seen anything that would make me think Madara is faster than SM Naruto.

Itd make anyone on the level of Sage mode or Pain at that speed. So Kakashi's reactions, the Kage's (powerscaling) etc.

No it wouldn't. People on the same level don't have the same speed.

Madara reacts to Rasenshuriken, which is what was calced at Mach 11.

Rasenshuriken being faster than Aizen is a load of bollocks if you ask me, but I haven't looked over the calcs.

If you can fight with someone you'd have the same speed. Madara was able to catch/absorb the Sage thrown Rasenshuriken and put up a guard against A with lightning armour.

Sniped you beeeetch. estahuh

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Madara reacts to Rasenshuriken, which is what was calced at Mach 11.

Rasenshuriken being faster than Aizen is a load of bollocks if you ask me, but I haven't looked over the calcs.

Ok, fair enough, but thats still just a reaction feat. All he had to do was turn on the Rinnengan. I'm not convinced he can fight at that speed.

Aizen is probably the only villain I know who's so bad that he actually becomes good. But his evolution designs sucked.

Sentiments aside, Madara is definitely written slower than Aizen. Clinging to the reaction of a projectile poorly estimated to be in the 3.7 km/s range ignoring that none of the Kage -- most of who aren't much faster than the average Jōnin -- had no trouble keeping up with him is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sniped you beeeetch. estahuh
Dick. Took ages flicking through all those chapters. <__<

Originally posted by Astner
Aizen is probably the only villain I know who's so bad that he actually becomes good. But his evolution designs sucked.

Sentiments aside, Madara is definitely written slower than Aizen. Clinging to the reaction of a projectile poorly estimated to be in the 3.7 km/s range ignoring that none of the Kage -- most of who aren't much faster than the average Jōnin -- had no trouble keeping up with him is ridiculous. Madara blitzed all of the Kage. Including A, at one point.

Not that this really matters. If Madara can get up Final Susano'o, he probably wins.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Madara reacts to Rasenshuriken, which is what was calced at Mach 11.

Rasenshuriken being faster than Aizen is a load of bollocks if you ask me, but I haven't looked over the calcs.

This doesn't mean he is as fast. he was able to react to something, he was not able to avoid it. That's two separate things. Same with being able to block A's charge. He was able to pull up a block. not avoid it like say, Naruto did.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Madara blitzed all of the Kage. Including A, at one point.

Not that this really matters. If Madara can get up Final Susano'o, he probably wins.

Hmmm, really? If true then that would be impressive. I don't recall that though.

Aizen's attacks are pretty powerful. Plus iirc we havn't seen how durable the Final Susano'o is. Also, in the first round it would be hard for Madara to put Aizen down for good considering Aizen can just regenerate. Meanwhile, Aizen might be able to seal Madara in Kurohitsugi (that gravity attack he used).

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Madara moves faster than Mū while evading Gaara's Sand.

Mū is capable of dodging attacks before other Kages. Mū is also capable of dodging an attack from Naruto in his Kyuubi Chakra Mode.

Mu is able to dodge better than most because he is a sensory type. He doesn't really have to be that fast because he senses it coming. These scans only prove that he can sense things better than the other kages. Same with the Naruto feat. Even Oonoki inferred it was because he was a sensor. As for the Madara and Muu movement thing, I don't really see how that equates to Madara being faster. They jumped in oppsite directions.

Gaara's Sand is fast enough to stop A & Sasuke from owning each other.

This doesn't prove much. A was moving downwards. So he was coming down as fast as gravity allows. That's shit compared to most speed feat in the Manga. i would have been more impressed with the sand blocking Gaara from being hit with a kick from 5 gates Lee.



What Aizen did is not very different from what Madara did, seeing as both the Captains & the 5 Kage were distracted before getting blitzed.

I find this example to be much different than what you are comparing with Madara. This guy is moving so fast they can't react at all.

Originally posted by socool8520
Mu is able to dodge better than most because he is a sensory type. He doesn't really have to be that fast because he senses it coming. These scans only prove that he can sense things better than the other kages. Same with the Naruto feat. Even Oonoki inferred it was because he was a sensor. As for the Madara and Muu movement thing, I don't really see how that equates to Madara being faster. They jumped in oppsite directions.

Thanks to his Chakra sensing, Mū can react faster than other Kage, and he can move fast enough to evade Naruto. Madara is not a demonstrated chakra sensor like Mū, and yet he can still react and move faster than Mū; as shown by how he's covered a greater distance than Mū, despite being closer to the Sand than Mū was, meaning it would have hit him first.

Originally posted by socool8520
This doesn't prove much. A was moving downwards. So he was coming down as fast as gravity allows. That's shit compared to most speed feat in the Manga. i would have been more impressed with the sand blocking Gaara from being hit with a kick from 5 gates Lee.

A may have been moving downwards, but his ass was millimeters away from Sasuke's attack. Gaara's Sand still intercepted it. That would be faster than anything 5 Gates Lee has demonstrated.
Gaara's Sand has also moved fast enough to block point-blank explosions.

Part 1 Gaara is nothing compared to current Gaara when it comes to the speed of his Sand.

Originally posted by socool8520
I find this example to be much different than what you are comparing with Madara. This guy is moving so fast they can't react at all.

I'm not saying Madara moved faster than Aizen. I'm saying Madara 'blitzed' the Kage much like Aizen 'blitzed' the Captains.

I still think Aizen is far faster than any Naruto character.

Not to mention the reason they don't seem to be able to react probably has less to do with his speed and more to do with...well you know.

Because they'd just stabbed Hinamori in the chest?

Or are you talking about the Kages? Because to be fair they were flying around on Gaaras sand at the time. Hardly an optimum position to dodge.

Was referring to the Aizen fight. And probably because they were never talking to Aizen anyway. He takes them out at the time so I assume he was using his Shikai.

Looking back on it, shouldn't Aizen have basically been able to kill a person without touching them. His shikai could instantly cause a great amount of pain since touch is one of the five senses.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because they'd just stabbed Hinamori in the chest?

Or are you talking about the Kages? Because to be fair they were flying around on Gaaras sand at the time. Hardly an optimum position to dodge. That, and he could have easily used Kyouka Suigetsu once again.

Also, poor Hinamori. Aizen trolling the Captains was lulzy, but Hinamori got massacred in the process.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Was referring to the Aizen fight. And probably because they were never talking to Aizen anyway. He takes them out at the time so I assume he was using his Shikai.

Looking back on it, shouldn't Aizen have basically been able to kill a person without touching them. His shikai could instantly cause a great amount of pain since touch is one of the five senses.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That, and he could have easily used Kyouka Suigetsu once again.

Also, poor Hinamori. Aizen trolling the Captains was lulzy, but Hinamori got massacred in the process.

There are alot of things Aizen could have done with with his shikai that he was too stupid to try. He could have just shut down all of their senses at once. They wouldn't be able to see or hear him and they wouldn't have been able to move since they would have lacked a sense of feeling.

Pretty much all they could do was sense rietsu since thats a 6th sense.

Basically Tosens bankai except even better.

Looking back, I have to think he was using his Shikai to take them out. I mean, he used it on Captain Doggy and these guys are above him(Including Hitsugaya...I think Captain Doggy is the weakest of the Captains though).

And DP, no one cares about her. Everyone cares about the momentous moment a few seconds later where Toshiro's balls finally dropped.

Hmm...I think it would be more fair if this was regular old Aizen. Monster Aizen is...well an idiot.

He apparently did not use his Shikai to take out those two Vizard captains. srug
Though the nature of his shikai makes it impossible to truly tell what was imaginary and what was real in a scene involving Aizen that also did not involve Ichigo.

You mean the momentous moment a few seconds later where Toshiro finally realized what a douchebag he is and gave us the lulziest moment in the manga.

Goes to show just how broken Aizen's intelligence and Shikai were as far as Bleach is concerned.

Im throwing my 2cents in replying to the original vs stated in the beginning.

First thing. Chakra vs reiatsu/reishi (ignore typos)

Chakra is the manifestation of both the physical and mental/spiritual energies within a person.

Reiatsu is the pressure or weight and reishi is the energy of a soul. Spirits can only be harmed by spirit energy, or constructs made of spirit particles. This comes from when Ichigo just got his powers back and had to knock urahara's hat off. Ichigo wasnt worried about Urahara's sword until he learned it was a zanpaktou

From this alone. Most chakra based attacks will only have about 50 percent of their max power against Aizen. Attacks where the chakra balance is different will still not be as effective. This does not go both ways as seen numerous times that reiatsu is potent enough to cause physical disturbances to the living world e.g. Changing the weather. Or the Fullbring manipulating the physical world by controlling the spirit of inert matter.

So even if madara can see him he cant battle him effectively. Taijutsu would be uselss as only about fifty percent of any blow would 'hit'aizen. Genjutsu as well, Aizen lacks the componet of physical energy for it to affect his brain since genjutsu afrects chakra and the chakra netwrok.

Aizen's illusions function differently and affect all the senses. Judging by this i would say Aizen hacks your nervous system through your optic nerves and controls what your brain perceives as reality. This makes aizen immune to genjutsu and makes the rinnegan/sharingan useless interms of a escape mechanism.

In terms of speed they are about equal. So a quick drawn sneak attack would not work on either of them.

Kidou Trumps ninjutsu, in both speed and stopping power. Aizen could pull a minato and open a garganta and swallow a bijuudama if not block it out right with a Danku.

Aizen will win this fight without needing to release his sword. All he needs to do is knock madara out of his physical body. If a low rank hollow can do it to Orihime then Aizen should also be able to. If he releases his sword he just does the same thing. This negates the Edo Tensei body of madara.

Once in spirit form, Aizen would most likely take madara for testing or just out right destroy his soul.

End of the day It would be a spectacular fight. Aizen toying (as seen in bleach, had he been serious from the start he would have won(e.g. Kill ichigo in his sleep)) with Madara then curbstomping him when he lands a good hit. (Illusions are so OP)

Nope.

Um, are you guys high?

Edo Tensei Madara with Rinnegan could summon town busting meteors with a gesture. He soloed the Gokage in seconds after he started going all out. He cut five mountains in half with a swing of his perfect Susano'o's blade before he even had Rinnegan. He could literally absorb any attacks Aizen could dish out, and could counter his sword ability easily with his simple sharingan. Plus, I'm pretty sure Aizen can't use his shikai in that mode anyways.

@ Swartjas: Madara is much faster and stronger than Aizen. Not to mention he can read his movements with Sharingan.

Kido? When has Kido been shown capable of doing anything remotely CLOSE to what Madara unsheathing his sword does? Madara cut two mountains in half just by taking his sword out. Kido has never been able to even reach city busting level, except for this incantation of Aizen. Even city busting is nothing to Madara though, who was able to easily block a country busting biju bomb from Naruto without even damaging the fan he used to block it.

Aizen's shikai IS Genjutsu. However, it's not even on Tsukiyomi level. Madara's base Genjutsu can do the exact same thing Aizen's shikai can. Tsukiyomi, which was overpowered by Sasuke's base Genjutsu, alters time itself, while doing exactly what Aizen's shikai does, but to an even greater extent.

That little assumption you made about Chakra and Spiritual energy is retarded. Naruto grabbed his own soul back from Nagato with chakra alone. This alone proves that Chakra easily affects Spiritual energy.

It was stated by Pein that anyone who has come into contact with a spirit can become aware of them. That's why you can see the devil when he uses the path to seal your soul.

Orihime's brother didn't "knock her sould out of her body", he killed her and she was caught out of her body because no one had taken her to heaven or hell yet.

Their speeds are not equal. No one in Bleach has even been stated to be a certain speed. It's prudent however, that they are not nearly as fast as Naruto characters. It took Ichigo about five seconds to fly with Aizen in his hand the distance of Karakura town. Madara was able to toss around attacks that he and Hashirama reacted to and dodged that traveled across oceans in about the same amount of time. He was able to solo five people that could move extremely fast, one who was faster than lightning. He dodged Biju bombs, attacks that could travel to other continents in less than thirty seconds.

No one in Bleach has feats even CLOSE to holding a candle to anything that even mid-tear Naruto characters do easily. Deidara was able to fly faster than C4 explodes. Nagato, a higher tier character, was able to effortlessly stomp two characters who were faster than lightning.

Aizen's strongest witnessed attack was incapable of destroying Karakura town. He's pathetic compared to Madara.

Madara would literally knock of Aizens head with a single flick of his Susano'o as soon as the fight started.

kyoka suigetsu is a deadly illusion based technique that can only be negated by touching aizens sword. Madar would lose just for the sole fact that aizen illusion techs are stronger and arent ever detected until its too late. plus the hogyuoku continuously makes his power grow

Originally posted by yungz22
kyoka suigetsu is a deadly illusion based technique that can only be negated by touching aizens sword. Madar would lose just for the sole fact that aizen illusion techs are stronger and arent ever detected until its too late. plus the hogyuoku continuously makes his power grow

First off, Aizen can't use his sword techs in this mode.

Secondly, Aizen's illusion could be negated by Madara's genjutsu because that's specifically what one of Sharingan's specialties is. It gives the user the ability to negate any non-sharingan based illusion. You can only defy sharingan Genjutsu with another sharingan, or a partner to release it. Madara is much stronger than Aizen, and can activate Genjutsu presumably by pointing, since Itachi could as well. All Madara needs to do is look at Aizen and he's caught. Not to mention that Madara can sense chakra and pin-point it with enough accuracy to feel Aizen trying to attack him. No matter what, sharingan can see chakra, and Aizen can't block your sense of chakra, so Kyoka Suigetsu is useless against an uchiha with sharingan.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
First off, Aizen can't use his sword techs in this mode.

Secondly, Aizen's illusion could be negated by Madara's genjutsu because that's specifically what one of Sharingan's specialties is. It gives the user the ability to negate any non-sharingan based illusion. You can only defy sharingan Genjutsu with another sharingan, or a partner to release it. Madara is much stronger than Aizen, and can activate Genjutsu presumably by pointing, since Itachi could as well. All Madara needs to do is look at Aizen and he's caught. Not to mention that Madara can sense chakra and pin-point it with enough accuracy to feel Aizen trying to attack him. No matter what, sharingan can see chakra, and Aizen can't block your sense of chakra, so Kyoka Suigetsu is useless against an uchiha with sharingan.


who says he cant use illusions in that form can you confirm that. Just because he didnt doesnt mean he cant. Nothing was stated saying they Aizen couldnt use kyoka suigetsu. Aizen didnt use it against Ichigo becuase he was the only shinigami who had never seen it and it only works on those who have. Why do you think he was the only one who noticed hinamori get stabbed by toshiro.

Also aizen has attacks like hado 90 which is a spell that distorts space /time. Madara cant beat that. Also aizen is physically more durable and faster than madara with his shunpo. Bleach characters take a great deal more damage than naruto charaters do..... Also the only mangekyou techniques weve seen madara use is susanoo, it hasnt been confirmed that hes capable of intense genjutsu like tsukuyomi.


Also you forget about spiritual pressure aizen has exerted way more energy with than madara has with or with or without the hogyoku. madara wouldnt be able to even pierce him with a sword if we go by he rules of bleach

Not really. Madara has crazy amounts of energy, his Final Susano'o sword surpasses the power of final Aizen's.

mangekyou sharingan techniques are unique to their users... For example Izanagi, Izanami kamui, and Koto Amatsukami have only been used by select ppl in the Uchiha clan. Even Amaterasu is only unique to sasuke and itachi. Sasuke has the best control over the black fire using inferno style (enton). And only itachi has ever used Tsukuyomi... heck even their susanoo are unique

Originally posted by Q99
Not really. Madara has crazy amounts of energy, his Final Susano'o sword surpasses the power of final Aizen's.


Aizen is stronger than those 5 kage.... Has Madara's chakra alone ever brought anyone to thier knees and paralyzed them......not by jutsu but just by mere presence no.

Originally posted by yungz22
Has Madara's chakra alone ever brought anyone to thier knees and paralyzed them......not by jutsu but just by mere presence no.


So? In Naruto, you gotta purposefully let it loose, they're better at containing their energy. Doesn't change they have better output when they want to.


Orochimaru can bring someone to their knees or walk past them without alerting a sensitive person.

Originally posted by Q99
So? In Naruto, you gotta purposefully let it loose, they're better at containing their energy. Doesn't change they have better output when they want to.


Orochimaru can bring someone to their knees or walk past them without alerting a sensitive person.

orochimaru uses a paralyzing genjutsu when he does that. If you can remember both sasuke and sakura envisioned killing themselves... even so all sasuke did was cut himself out of the kunai and he was out of it. Spiritual pressure is so unique that if you dont fight with equal or more pressure your techniques wont even harm your opponent. Aizen did this with renji, Soi Fon and rose and weve seen it with kenpachi and and ichigo. Spiritual pressure by itself destroys environments around you. Madara has never shown this type of pressure when he is in anyones pressure.... this means tht his attacks would be null and void against aizen. plus you guys forget that the hogyoku continously works at evolving the user aizen is only going to get stronger and stronger if it werent for kisuke aizen would have beaten ichigo

Originally posted by yungz22
who says he cant use illusions in that form can you confirm that. Just because he didnt doesnt mean he cant. Nothing was stated saying they Aizen couldnt use kyoka suigetsu. Aizen didnt use it against Ichigo becuase he was the only shinigami who had never seen it and it only works on those who have. Why do you think he was the only one who noticed hinamori get stabbed by toshiro.

Also aizen has attacks like hado 90 which is a spell that distorts space /time. Madara cant beat that. Also aizen is physically more durable and faster than madara with his shunpo. Bleach characters take a great deal more damage than naruto charaters do..... Also the only mangekyou techniques weve seen madara use is susanoo, it hasnt been confirmed that hes capable of intense genjutsu like tsukuyomi.


Also you forget about spiritual pressure aizen has exerted way more energy with than madara has with or with or without the hogyoku. madara wouldnt be able to even pierce him with a sword if we go by he rules of bleach

Aizen didn't use Kyoka Suigetsu on Ichigo when they first fought because he knew he didn't have to. That's not true at all. Anyone who has seen it falls under it, but you can't be retarded enough to think that he can't cast it on other people. He didn't use it on Ichigo when he was possessed by the Hogyoku because he couldn't. Otherwise he would have. Why do you think that he didn't use it on Ichigo's dad and/or Yoroichi? He couldn't.

No one other than Itachi can use Tsukiyomi, unless you count infinite Tsukiyomi which requires the Jyuubi. Madara CAN however use genjutsu on a big enough scale to control the minds of Bijuu, and even the Jyuubi, both of which are MUCH stronger than Aizen. You know what Naruto attacks warp space and time? Casual bunshin that even chunnin level ninja can use, and other bunshin techniques like Hiraishin. That means nothing. Aizen using his strongest attack in his strongest form did less than town busting damage, which would render that Kido attack, Hado number 99, useless. Unless you're saying that Kido was stronger than an even stronger form of Aizen's strongest attack. It's destructive force was nothing compared to something like Naruto's biju bomb, Madara's meteor, almighty push or really anything that Madara has casually dished out.

How do Bleach characters take more damage when they can't dish out nearly as much damage? A hogyoku form Aizen blast that burned Ichigo's arm and failed to destroy a single town is nothing compared to Madara dropping multiple meteors with a gesture, capable of destroying entire countries. Not to mention that Madara was able to shot Yasaka Magatama and Biju balls that Hashirama dodged, that traveled entire oceans in less than five seconds before destroying entire villages. Again, Madara slashing once cut five mountains in half. Ichigo, who was much stronger than Aizen, parrying a slash with his AND Aizen's force only cut one in half.

Shunpo isn't the same speed for all shinigami. Aizen's shunpo is still not anywhere near as fast as Gin's bankai, which was calced to be less than mach 50. Aizen wasn't even able to outrun the explosion of Yamamoto's shikai, which explodes at roughly mach 24. Going from the maps in Naruto, the ocean Madara's blast covered was about the size of the pacific ocean. Since the blast traveled through the bulk of it's distance, we can infer from scaling that it was around 12,300 miles long. Calcing that it traveled that in five seconds, the blast was going around 8,856,000 mph, or mach 11,531. Hashirama dodged this easily, meaning his reaction speed is above that. Madara with Rinnegan was even stronger and faster, meaning he is well above mach 11,531, at least with reaction speed.

Again, Madara is MUCH faster and stronger than Aizen, i.e. he wins. Plus he can absorb anything Aizen shoots at him with rinnegan, as well as completely restrict his movements by using almighty push and universal pull at the same time. That along with the fact that he can simply change the landscape by unsheathing his sword proves that he would shit on Aizen.

Originally posted by yungz22
orochimaru uses a paralyzing genjutsu when he does that. If you can remember both sasuke and sakura envisioned killing themselves... even so all sasuke did was cut himself out of the kunai and he was out of it. Spiritual pressure is so unique that if you dont fight with equal or more pressure your techniques wont even harm your opponent. Aizen did this with renji, Soi Fon and rose and weve seen it with kenpachi and and ichigo. Spiritual pressure by itself destroys environments around you. Madara has never shown this type of pressure when he is in anyones pressure.... this means tht his attacks would be null and void against aizen. plus you guys forget that the hogyoku continously works at evolving the user aizen is only going to get stronger and stronger if it werent for kisuke aizen would have beaten ichigo

How's that any different from Naruto? If Konohamaru used rasengan on Madara, it wouldn't even register to his sense of touch.

Naruto transforming into three tailed cloak form destroyed an entire giant bridge. Much more than Aizen has ever done with his shear aura. Not to mention that it doesn't matter if they can do things like destroy continents and countries when they are trying. It just means they have much better control.

The hogyoku only evolves you until you reach perfect hollow/soul reaper unity, like Aizen in this form DID. Aizen can no longer evolve. That's why the hogyoku rejected him.

Sasuke could only see through the genjutsu because he had sharingan. Aizen doesn't. Madara would stomp him with a glance.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
How's that any different from Naruto? If Konohamaru used rasengan on Madara, it wouldn't even register to his sense of touch.

Naruto transforming into three tailed cloak form destroyed an entire giant bridge. Much more than Aizen has ever done with his shear aura. Not to mention that it doesn't matter if they can do things like destroy continents and countries when they are trying. It just means they have much better control.

The hogyoku only evolves you until you reach perfect hollow/soul reaper unity, like Aizen in this form DID. Aizen can no longer evolve. That's why the hogyoku rejected him.

Sasuke could only see through the genjutsu because he had sharingan. Aizen doesn't. Madara would stomp him with a glance.
sasuke wasnt using sharingan when oro had him in that genjutsu and the hogyoku stopped evolving aizen because of that kido that aizen placed inside of him.....also a rasengan from konahamaru would hurt anybody in the series because naruto doesnt have the same rules when it comes to chakra as spiritual pressure does for bleach...... if that was the case then he should have never killed one of the pein bodies... nagato is an uzumaki he had one of the largest amounts of chakra in the series.

also see here one cero from aizen in this form did this-- http://www.mangachapter.net/1193/bleach/419-11.html
http://www.mangachapter.net/1193/bleach/419-12.html

aizen can launch 6 of those at one time in this form just imagine the destruction it would hve caused had ichigo not been able to stop him

Originally posted by yungz22
orochimaru uses a paralyzing genjutsu when he does that. If you can remember both sasuke and sakura envisioned killing themselves... even so all sasuke did was cut himself out of the kunai and he was out of it. Spiritual pressure is so unique that if you dont fight with equal or more pressure your techniques wont even harm your opponent. Aizen did this with renji, Soi Fon and rose and weve seen it with kenpachi and and ichigo. Spiritual pressure by itself destroys environments around you. Madara has never shown this type of pressure when he is in anyones pressure.... this means tht his attacks would be null and void against aizen.


So what? Naruto chakra doesn't work like spiritual pressure, it's more controlled.


Madara has shown well more power than Aizen, there is zero reason to think that Aizen's spiritual power will do jack squat.

If Ichigo's sword works, why shouldn't Madara's Final Susano'o sword, which is stronger?

Originally posted by Q99
So what? Naruto chakra doesn't work like spiritual pressure, it's more controlled.


Madara has shown well more power than Aizen, there is zero reason to think that Aizen's spiritual power will do jack squat.

If Ichigo's sword works, why shouldn't Madara's Final Susano'o sword, which is stronger?


that attack didnt even one shot the 5 kages what makes you think it would kill aizen. Bleach characters also are way more durable and take way more damage than naruto characters also... that is a fact

its not like madara has incrediblly intese genjutsu like tsyukuyomi

Madara wins

Originally posted by yungz22
sasuke wasnt using sharingan when oro had him in that genjutsu and the hogyoku stopped evolving aizen because of that kido that aizen placed inside of him.....also a rasengan from konahamaru would hurt anybody in the series because naruto doesnt have the same rules when it comes to chakra as spiritual pressure does for bleach...... if that was the case then he should have never killed one of the pein bodies... nagato is an uzumaki he had one of the largest amounts of chakra in the series.

also see here one cero from aizen in this form did this-- http://www.mangachapter.net/1193/bleach/419-11.html
http://www.mangachapter.net/1193/bleach/419-12.html

aizen can launch 6 of those at one time in this form just imagine the destruction it would hve caused had ichigo not been able to stop him

http://i34.mangapanda.com/naruto/47/naruto-1565815.jpg

Really? Not using Sharingan?

Not to mention that it wasn't genjutsu, as proved by this scan.

http://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/47/naruto-1565813.jpg

See? Clearly says it's Oro's killing intent, not Genjutsu.

http://i22.mangapanda.com/naruto/146/naruto-1979317.jpg

Really? It looks to me like a chidori from Sasuke didn't even make Itachi flinch. It has nothing to do with "rules". If a weak person attacks someone who's much stronger than them, 99% of the time, it won't do shit.

Konohamaru didn't kill that path of pain, which is why Naruto had to kill it later on. He made an opening for him and Ebisu to escape. Even so, he simply caught one of them off gaurd, the one who wasn't even a fighting path. That was the devil path, the one who probably would lose a fight against Hanabi.

Aizen can NOT create six of those Cero's at a time. If he could, he would have. Simple as that.

Thank you though for proving my point. Aizen's strongest attack wasn't even a town buster. Now let's take a look at some of Madara's attacks.

http://i40.mangapanda.com/naruto/621/naruto-3930627.jpg

Keep in mind that this is from a single slash of his sword.

http://i11.mangapanda.com/naruto/621/naruto-3930635.jpg

His Bijuu bomb crossing an entire ocean in seconds, before destroying an entire village.

http://i22.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/naruto-2733411.jpg

And of course, him summoning a town sized meteor with a gesture.

http://i25.mangapanda.com/naruto/613/naruto-3747585.jpg

And finally, a continent busting Biju bomb that makes Aizen's attacks look like bottle rockets.

What reason do you have to think Aizen could even BEGIN to harm someone who has feats that make his look pitiful like this? You're just fan-raging at this point.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
http://i34.mangapanda.com/naruto/47/naruto-1565815.jpg

Really? Not using Sharingan?

Not to mention that it wasn't genjutsu, as proved by this scan.

http://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/47/naruto-1565813.jpg

See? Clearly says it's Oro's killing intent, not Genjutsu.

http://i22.mangapanda.com/naruto/146/naruto-1979317.jpg

Really? It looks to me like a chidori from Sasuke didn't even make Itachi flinch. It has nothing to do with "rules". If a weak person attacks someone who's much stronger than them, 99% of the time, it won't do shit.

Konohamaru didn't kill that path of pain, which is why Naruto had to kill it later on. He made an opening for him and Ebisu to escape. Even so, he simply caught one of them off gaurd, the one who wasn't even a fighting path. That was the devil path, the one who probably would lose a fight against Hanabi.

Aizen can NOT create six of those Cero's at a time. If he could, he would have. Simple as that.

Thank you though for proving my point. Aizen's strongest attack wasn't even a town buster. Now let's take a look at some of Madara's attacks.

http://i40.mangapanda.com/naruto/621/naruto-3930627.jpg

Keep in mind that this is from a single slash of his sword.

http://i11.mangapanda.com/naruto/621/naruto-3930635.jpg

His Bijuu bomb crossing an entire ocean in seconds, before destroying an entire village.

http://i22.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/naruto-2733411.jpg

And of course, him summoning a town sized meteor with a gesture.

http://i25.mangapanda.com/naruto/613/naruto-3747585.jpg

And finally, a continent busting Biju bomb that makes Aizen's attacks look like bottle rockets.

What reason do you have to think Aizen could even BEGIN to harm someone who has feats that make his look pitiful like this? You're just fan-raging at this point.

oh ok your right about oro but. madara hasnt done any of that. Madara doesnt even seem like primarily genjutsu user all his attacks hes shown us are ninjutsu. The bijuu bomb isnt necessarily madaras power its the bijuu's. Also his bijuu arent continet busters do you how large a continent actually is that means your saying one bijuu bomb could destroy either all of america. or the whole continent of austrailia which isnt the case. The bijuu bombs are city busting... Also aizen can create 6 ceros because he was about to do in point blank range to ichigos face. but ichigo stopped him before he could do it..... sasukes chidori would have harmed itachi if he didnt counter it by grabbing sasukes arm. Bleach works differently if your spiritual pressure is stronger than your opponents. Your opponents techniques arent gonna work. soi fons two hit kill technique was negated by aizen's reatsu alone. She actually stabbed him twice and it had no effect. He tanked the attack. Throughout bleach you can see examples of this.Naruto characters dodge or counter each others moves because they infact can be harmed by each other. case and point konhamaru's rasengan vs that pein body

Originally posted by yungz22
oh ok your right about oro but. madara hasnt done any of that. Madara doesnt even seem like primarily genjutsu user all his attacks hes shown us are ninjutsu. The bijuu bomb isnt necessarily madaras power its the bijuu's. Also his bijuu arent continet busters do you how large a continent actually is that means your saying one bijuu bomb could destroy either all of america. or the whole continent of austrailia which isnt the case. The bijuu bombs are city busting... Also aizen can create 6 ceros because he was about to do in point blank range to ichigos face. but ichigo stopped him before he could do it..... sasukes chidori would have harmed itachi if he didnt counter it by grabbing sasukes arm. Bleach works differently if your spiritual pressure is stronger than your opponents. Your opponents techniques arent gonna work. soi fons two hit kill technique was negated by aizen's reatsu alone. She actually stabbed him twice and it had no effect. He tanked the attack. Throughout bleach you can see examples of this.Naruto characters dodge or counter each others moves because they infact can be harmed by each other. case and point konhamaru's rasengan vs that pein body

http://r1.goodmanga.net/images/manga/naruto/588/8.jpg

No genjutsu? Have you even read Naruto?

The Jyuubi bomb destroyed the lightning country, which is an entire continent.

Madara used Kyuubi's biju bomb to add destructive force. He still threw it across an ocean on his own. Not to mention that he was in control of the Kyuubi and had to use his own chakra to make it use a biju bomb. That was without rinnegan, which he can use Almighty push with.

http://i35.mangapanda.com/bleach/419/bleach-2399553.jpg

Uh, I don't know what series you read, but Aizen was using the energy from his ceros to restrict Ichigo, which is why he was so shocked when Ichigo broke out of it.

Do you realize how destructive a meteor is? A meteor the size of the one Madara summoned being dropped on Earth would EASILY destroy a continent the size of Australia.

http://i32.mangapanda.com/naruto/554/naruto-2620361.jpg

The third Raikage tanked a Rasenshuriken from KCM Naruto without being injured. As you can see, the same rule applies to Naruto. If you can't penetrate someones defenses, you can't hurt them. Just like in every other fictional series.

What you're saying is that no one in Bleach can hurt anyone in Bleach. You are retarded. Just like any other series, if you're a lot stronger than someone, they can't hurt you. Soi fon uses her spiritual pressure to poison her opponents, but you can't simply tank that attack. If it cuts you twice, you die, just like Aizen would have. In case you've forgotten, he was using Kyoka Suigetsu that entire fight, meaning he never even got stabbed. Momo did, lol.

Anyway, you still haven't posted proof of anything you've claimed so far, so until you can give me a legit reason as to why Aizen would win, without including your fanboy bias, then I'm done with this pitiful excuse for a debate.

I said the biju bomb wasnt continent busting. and regarless its not his chakra creating the bijuu bomb so you cant credit madara for that. I dont even think the meteor is continent busting. maybe country but not continent. the metero that supposedly killed the dinosaurs was way larger and it wasnt even continent busting. It land somewhere in Utah, nevada or somewhere outwest. It didnt destroy the whole north american continent.Even to this day you can drive and go see for yourself the crater it left. The after effect is what killed the dinosaurs it left a smoke cloud around the earth and blocked alot of the sunlight from coming to earth. Cold blooded animals cant handle that type environment that is why they died out. mammals can live in that environment so wed be just fine. thus its city busting. Aizen and madara are both capable of being city busters. We have to agree on that. but anyway Last time i saw continent busting attacks was in dbz and those guys were easily planet busters.

ok your right ill admit i was wrong with the 6 ceros i must have misinterpreted what he was doing there

I never said madara couldnt do genjutsu that would be stupid i meant that his genjutsu didnt seem to be on the level of other more powerful genjutsu users like Itachi. It was a basic sharingan genjutsu...thats what i meant.

http://www.citymanga.com/bleach/chapter-391/13/
http://www.citymanga.com/bleach/chapter-391/14/
http://www.citymanga.com/bleach/chapter-391/15/ - there are examples of this throughout the series
http://www.citymanga.com/bleach/chapter-105/04/
http://www.citymanga.com/bleach/chapter-105/05/
http://www.citymanga.com/bleach/chapter-105/07/

What im saying is aizen allowed for the attack to strike him but his spiritual pressure alone negated the attack. Chakra doesnt work that way in naruto. All ninja can be hurt by each others attacks that is why they dodge,counter or block each others attacks. Raikage was using his Raiton armor which is a jutsu that protects from all attacks its different from spiritual pressure. reatsu is a natural negator of any harm someone trys to inflict on you whether it be physical or energy based for example has anyone in naruto taken a slash from a knife or sword and not been harmed at all by it. Raikage was using a lightning based armor.

http://www.manga2u.me/Naruto/553/11/-- the fact he said we need a wind user suggests that it is a lightning based jutsu. Also Raikage didnt tank the atack he was knocked down and the his lightning armore dissapated. even for just a little.... its not hte same as reatsu. http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-554/7/

Here are the reasons i think aizen can win.
Aizen is faster than madara. This is proven by the fact he was hit by tsunade. I think we can both agree that tsunade is not faster than aizen. So speed advantage Aizen. shunpo is faster than anything tsunade has ever shown us

Another reason is the whole spiritual pressure thing which i exlpained above.

Illusion wise we should agree that aizen has he better of the two illusionary weapons Kyoka produces an illusion that lasts forever, takes control of all five senses, and can only be broken unless you touch his sword..... He can even release kyoka without his opponent even realizing.... the s**t is hax.

He also has a vast knowledge of bakudo and kido which could be of great use to him.. Kido 90 uses gravity to manipulate time and space. it literally is its own dimension. i can see madara having trouble with that.

id say they are both equal in smart because both have ample battle experience. But one could argue and give the edge to aizen because hes been part of the gotei thirteen for hundreds of years.

durability id have to give to aizen. Mainly because id say we both can agree bleach characters take crazy amounts of damage during battle. there battles are rather bloody

also he has the hogyoku which is another hax in its own right.
and he can fly

all of the factors above plus his speed advantage should give him the win

im not even an aizen fan my fav bleach character is Hisagi hes awsome

Originally posted by yungz22
I said the biju bomb wasnt continent busting. and regarless its not his chakra creating the bijuu bomb so you cant credit madara for that. I dont even think the meteor is continent busting. maybe country but not continent. the metero that supposedly killed the dinosaurs was way larger and it wasnt even continent busting. It land somewhere in Utah, nevada or somewhere outwest. It didnt destroy the whole north american continent.Even to this day you can drive and go see for yourself the crater it left. The after effect is what killed the dinosaurs it left a smoke cloud around the earth and blocked alot of the sunlight from coming to earth. Cold blooded animals cant handle that type environment that is why they died out. mammals can live in that environment so wed be just fine. thus its city busting. Aizen and madara are both capable of being city busters. We have to agree on that. but anyway Last time i saw continent busting attacks was in dbz and those guys were easily planet busters.

ok your right ill admit i was wrong with the 6 ceros i must have misinterpreted what he was doing there

I never said madara couldnt do genjutsu that would be stupid i meant that his genjutsu didnt seem to be on the level of other more powerful genjutsu users like Itachi. It was a basic sharingan genjutsu...thats what i meant.

http://www.citymanga.com/bleach/chapter-391/13/
http://www.citymanga.com/bleach/chapter-391/14/
http://www.citymanga.com/bleach/chapter-391/15/ - there are examples of this throughout the series
http://www.citymanga.com/bleach/chapter-105/04/
http://www.citymanga.com/bleach/chapter-105/05/
http://www.citymanga.com/bleach/chapter-105/07/

What im saying is aizen allowed for the attack to strike him but his spiritual pressure alone negated the attack. Chakra doesnt work that way in naruto. All ninja can be hurt by each others attacks that is why they dodge,counter or block each others attacks. Raikage was using his Raiton armor which is a jutsu that protects from all attacks its different from spiritual pressure. reatsu is a natural negator of any harm someone trys to inflict on you whether it be physical or energy based for example has anyone in naruto taken a slash from a knife or sword and not been harmed at all by it. Raikage was using a lightning based armor.

http://www.manga2u.me/Naruto/553/11/-- the fact he said we need a wind user suggests that it is a lightning based jutsu. Also Raikage didnt tank the atack he was knocked down and the his lightning armore dissapated. even for just a little.... its not hte same as reatsu. http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-554/7/

"What you're saying is that no one in Bleach can hurt anyone in Bleach. You are retarded. Just like any other series, if you're a lot stronger than someone, they can't hurt you. Soi fon uses her spiritual pressure to poison her opponents, but you can't simply tank that attack. If it cuts you twice, you die, just like Aizen would have. In case you've forgotten, he was using Kyoka Suigetsu that entire fight, meaning he never even got stabbed. Momo did, lol. "

For the last time, Aizen did NOT negate Soi fons attack, because he wasn't the one getting hit by it.

Once again, the Jyuubi bomb destroyed the lightning country which is a continent.

The supposed meteor that killed the dinosaurs was only 10 km in diameter, while the one Madara summoned was larger than the entire battle field they were on, which made the Bijuu sized Susano'o barely noticable. In case you forgot, the Nine tails, or Bijuu, was nearly as big as the entire leaf village, which was equal in size to a small country. The meteor Madara summoned would have destroyed much more than the one that supposedly killed the dinosaurs. Not to mention that the meteor that killed the meteor busted a super-continent, Pangea, and caused it to separate. Madara's meteor conjured by a gesture was much larger, and could have done much more damage to Pangea.

Of course Madara's genjutsu is nothing compared to Itachi's. He's literally the most skilled genjutsu user in the series, other than Shisui, who can only surpass Itachi with his Mangekyo that only can be used once every ten years. However, Madara is an Uchiha with Mangeyo sharingan. Chiyo said that the only way to get out of their genjutsu without also having sharingan, is to have a teammate pull you out of it. Aizen doesn't have that, so he would be unable to escape while Madara melted him with a great fire annihilation that makes Yamamoto's fire look weak.

Yes, it was lightning style, but it was just his aura that protected him. In Bleach, there's no lightning type reiatsu, but in Naruto, their chakra's can be used for much more things than reiatsu can, which includes creating armor with said chakra. This has been demonstrated by many people, such as Susano'o users, Raikage, Jinchuriki, Kisame, Jiraiya and many other characters, able to use their chakra's as armors or something to negate attacks. This argument is pointless anyway, because Madara is much more powerful than Aizen, has much more energy, and would be able to tank any attack he dished out easily.

Originally posted by yungz22
Here are the reasons i think aizen can win.
Aizen is faster than madara. This is proven by the fact he was hit by tsunade. I think we can both agree that tsunade is not faster than aizen. So speed advantage Aizen. shunpo is faster than anything tsunade has ever shown us

Another reason is the whole spiritual pressure thing which i exlpained above.

Illusion wise we should agree that aizen has he better of the two illusionary weapons Kyoka produces an illusion that lasts forever, takes control of all five senses, and can only be broken unless you touch his sword..... He can even release kyoka without his opponent even realizing.... the s**t is hax.

He also has a vast knowledge of bakudo and kido which could be of great use to him.. Kido 90 uses gravity to manipulate time and space. it literally is its own dimension. i can see madara having trouble with that.

id say they are both equal in smart because both have ample battle experience. But one could argue and give the edge to aizen because hes been part of the gotei thirteen for hundreds of years.

durability id have to give to aizen. Mainly because id say we both can agree bleach characters take crazy amounts of damage during battle. there battles are rather bloody

also he has the hogyoku which is another hax in its own right.
and he can fly

all of the factors above plus his speed advantage should give him the win

im not even an aizen fan my fav bleach character is Hisagi hes awsome

That's an assumption. Tsunade was able to dodge and outrun explosions during the fight with Orochimaru, as well as come close to the Raikage's level of speed. The only reason she hit Madara was because 1. He was toying with them, as he admitted many times saying he didn't even need to dodge their attacks, and 2. Tsunade was attacking in coordination with the other four kage, any one of which would shit on Aizen, Tsunade included. You assume Aizen is fast because he can use shunpo. He wasn't even able to outrun the explosion of Yamamoto's shikai, which explodes at roughly mach 24. As I said before, Madara is well above mach 11,531, at least with reaction speed. Aizen couldn't even comprehend that he had gotten killed until he was checking in to heaven/hell.

For the last time, Aizen cannot use Kyoka suigetsu in this mode. He would have against Ichigo if he could.

Even if he could though, Madara can activate his genjutsu by looking at someone, not even needing visual contact. If he did use it, Aizen would be ****ed in the ass. Not to mention that sharingan can see through any illusion if you're stronger than the caster, which as I have already indisputably proved, Madara is.

Yes Bleach characters can take crazy amounts of damage, but still nothing compared to Naruto characters. Naruto characters fight for hours with continent and country busting attacks, Bleach characters fight for seconds to minutes with city block/town busting attacks.

Aizen has more battle experience, but Madara is still much stronger and smarter, considering he can see into the future and steal peoples intelligence.

The hogyoku does nothing for this form of Aizen. If anything, it's a debilitating item, because if he suffers a certain amount of damage it will destroy his soul reaper powers.

Aizen can barely fly at all compared to Tsuchikage, and we saw how that turned out for him. Flight will do nothing when you can't dodge your opponents attacks, get out of their range or fly fast enough to blitz them. Aizen can do none of these, as his flight was laughably slower than Ichigo's which was only able to cross a town in five seconds, which is slow compared to Tsuchikage and Gaara flying to a different continent in just a few short minutes.

Again, Aizen loses in all aspects other than fighting experience. Madara rapes him.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
That's an assumption. Tsunade was able to dodge and outrun explosions during the fight with Orochimaru, as well as come close to the Raikage's level of speed. The only reason she hit Madara was because 1. He was toying with them, as he admitted many times saying he didn't even need to dodge their attacks, and 2. Tsunade was attacking in coordination with the other four kage, any one of which would shit on Aizen, Tsunade included. You assume Aizen is fast because he can use shunpo. He wasn't even able to outrun the explosion of Yamamoto's shikai, which explodes at roughly mach 24. As I said before, Madara is well above mach 11,531, at least with reaction speed. Aizen couldn't even comprehend that he had gotten killed until he was checking in to heaven/hell.

For the last time, Aizen cannot use Kyoka suigetsu in this mode. He would have against Ichigo if he could.

Even if he could though, Madara can activate his genjutsu by looking at someone, not even needing visual contact. If he did use it, Aizen would be ****ed in the ass. Not to mention that sharingan can see through any illusion if you're stronger than the caster, which as I have already indisputably proved, Madara is.

Yes Bleach characters can take crazy amounts of damage, but still nothing compared to Naruto characters. Naruto characters fight for hours with continent and country busting attacks, Bleach characters fight for seconds to minutes with city block/town busting attacks.

Aizen has more battle experience, but Madara is still much stronger and smarter, considering he can see into the future and steal peoples intelligence.

The hogyoku does nothing for this form of Aizen. If anything, it's a debilitating item, because if he suffers a certain amount of damage it will destroy his soul reaper powers.

Aizen can barely fly at all compared to Tsuchikage, and we saw how that turned out for him. Flight will do nothing when you can't dodge your opponents attacks, get out of their range or fly fast enough to blitz them. Aizen can do none of these, as his flight was laughably slower than Ichigo's which was only able to cross a town in five seconds, which is slow compared to Tsuchikage and Gaara flying to a different continent in just a few short minutes.

Again, Aizen loses in all aspects other than fighting experience. Madara rapes him.

The lightning country is not a continent it is just a country it is not seperated from the rest of the ninja world. The ninja world map itself is shows the 5 countries on one continent... also what does that have to do with madara's chakra.... that is the jyubbi's chakra.....Madara is not itachi his sharingan does need eye contact for illusion based techniques.... your missing my point about the bleach spiritual pressure thing i never said nobody can hurt anybody the examples i clearly show the rules of engagment when it comesto spiritual pressure. in bleach If it is strong enough it can negate the attacks ability to harm you that is fact. It even works with kido and hado. there have been instances throughout the series where the attacks just get tanked by those whose reatsu is on another level. its happened again when Ichigo attacked grimmjow with his shikai the first time they met. his sword couldnt even cut grimmjow in that form. In the bleach series its happened more times than the examples ive put up. Did you not read what aizen or kenpachi said.

It seems you love madara if your really suggesting that tsunade is a speedster. Madara doesnt have speed feats reaction time maybe but speed feats youd have to show me. Either way aizen is faster than that rasensshuriken everyone on here is so hard about with shunpo. using it shinigami have travelled immense distances.

I mean where are they getting these calculations from. Does the person who calculated it have a math degree what makes him credible. If he doesnt have any of those things i disregard his calculations. Aizen didnt dodge the attack because yama was holding his leg ....

The only reason the hogyoku stopped evolving aizen was because of urahara's spell he casted. also why cant he use kyoka the sword is fused to Aizen just like ichigos and they both were trancended passed both hollow and shinigami. If aizen cant use his release then ichigo shouldnt have been able to also.


one could even argue that the hogyoku could help Aizen to negate the sharingan genjutsu since it is always pumping its power into aizen. it has a mind of its own.

another example of enormous spiritual pressure and its effects
Aizen causes a Human soul to collapse and fade away by standing a few feet away from him By his own claim, if Don Kanonji had come into contact with Aizen, Don would have ceased to exist.When Aizen touched Gin Ichimaru's arm, his Reatsu caused the area touched to dissolve.

aizen also has a teleportation feat that he used a couple times during the fight with ichigo. Aizen can de-materialize himself in one place and re-materialize himself a distance away. He breaks down his body into multiple purple shards and reassembles himself

aizen also has regeneration feats.

Uraharas kido 96 is what caused the hogyoku the reject him. It sealed aizens power therfore the hogyoku could not enhance them and as a result it rejected him as his master.... madara doesnt have anything in his repetoire that can produce the same effect as kido 96

"The Hōgyoku is able to manifest the desires of those around it. However, this manifestation will not be successful unless the possessors of those desires have the strength to carry it out. In a way, its ability might be better termed a 'guiding force'. " - aizen sousuke

Originally posted by yungz22
Uraharas kido 96 is what caused the hogyoku the reject him. It sealed aizens power therfore the hogyoku could not enhance them and as a result it rejected him as his master.... madara doesnt have anything in his repetoire that can produce the same effect as kido 96

http://i19.mangapanda.com/bleach/421/bleach-2399375.jpg

You really need to stop making shit up. It's pitiful, and you've now been branded a lying fanboy.

Originally posted by yungz22
another example of enormous spiritual pressure and its effects
Aizen causes a Human soul to collapse and fade away by standing a few feet away from him By his own claim, if Don Kanonji had come into contact with Aizen, Don would have ceased to exist.When Aizen touched Gin Ichimaru's arm, his Reatsu caused the area touched to dissolve.

aizen also has a teleportation feat that he used a couple times during the fight with ichigo. Aizen can de-materialize himself in one place and re-materialize himself a distance away. He breaks down his body into multiple purple shards and reassembles himself

aizen also has regeneration feats.

That has nothing to do with this fight. Again, Aizen is nowhere near as strong as Madara, so if anyone would vanish from being in contact with a stronger aura, it would be Aizen.

That's dematerialization. It's just a fancy version of Sonido. Something that simply makes you move fast, only Aizen's looks different. It's not teleportation because Ichigo still blitzed Aizen while using it.

Madara also has regeneration feats.

http://i34.mangapanda.com/bleach/421/bleach-2399357.jpg

This is Aizen's best regeneration feat.

http://i6.mangapanda.com/naruto/588/naruto-3338743.jpg

This is Madara's. Instantly regenerating from complete atomic separation. He instantly regenerated from his atoms being disassembled.

Originally posted by yungz22
The lightning country is not a continent it is just a country it is not seperated from the rest of the ninja world. The ninja world map itself is shows the 5 countries on one continent... also what does that have to do with madara's chakra.... that is the jyubbi's chakra.....Madara is not itachi his sharingan does need eye contact for illusion based techniques.... your missing my point about the bleach spiritual pressure thing i never said nobody can hurt anybody the examples i clearly show the rules of engagment when it comesto spiritual pressure. in bleach If it is strong enough it can negate the attacks ability to harm you that is fact. It even works with kido and hado. there have been instances throughout the series where the attacks just get tanked by those whose reatsu is on another level. its happened again when Ichigo attacked grimmjow with his shikai the first time they met. his sword couldnt even cut grimmjow in that form. In the bleach series its happened more times than the examples ive put up. Did you not read what aizen or kenpachi said.

It seems you love madara if your really suggesting that tsunade is a speedster. Madara doesnt have speed feats reaction time maybe but speed feats youd have to show me. Either way aizen is faster than that rasensshuriken everyone on here is so hard about with shunpo. using it shinigami have travelled immense distances.

I mean where are they getting these calculations from. Does the person who calculated it have a math degree what makes him credible. If he doesnt have any of those things i disregard his calculations. Aizen didnt dodge the attack because yama was holding his leg ....

The only reason the hogyoku stopped evolving aizen was because of urahara's spell he casted. also why cant he use kyoka the sword is fused to Aizen just like ichigos and they both were trancended passed both hollow and shinigami. If aizen cant use his release then ichigo shouldnt have been able to also.


one could even argue that the hogyoku could help Aizen to negate the sharingan genjutsu since it is always pumping its power into aizen. it has a mind of its own.

http://naruto-fans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/worldmap.jpg

This is the planet of Naruto. As you can see, the lands are joined together, making it a supercontinent. The lightning country takes up more than a seventh of its land mass. This means? The lightning country is the size of a large continent, like South America.

The only genjutsu that requires eye contact in all of Naruto is Tsukiyomi. Most genjutsu require seals or hand signs. If you have sharingan however, you can cast adept Uchiha genjutsu that only requires visual contact, or in Itachi's case, pointing. Hell, even Izanami only required you to utter the name of the attack.

The Jyuubi's chakra made the meteor that Madara conjured with a gesture before he even had a single Biju? No, Madara summoned the town sized meteor, that could continent bust, which is why Onoki said they needed to stop it or the war would be over.

For the last time you dense phuck, that is the same for EVERY action series. If you are stronger than someone to a great extent, they can't hurt you. Again, the Bleach characters only have reiatsu, which is active permanently because they are souls. Naruto characters have to summon their chakra with their will, it isn't being used unless they want it to be. It doesn't matter though, because Madara has VASTLY superior strength, durability, speed and energy feats.

Ichigo couldn't cut Grimmjow because of his hierro, retard. Just fyi, that's spiritual resistance.

"Shunpo isn't the same speed for all shinigami. Aizen's shunpo is still not anywhere near as fast as Gin's bankai, which was calced to be less than mach 50. Aizen wasn't even able to outrun the explosion of Yamamoto's shikai, which explodes at roughly mach 24. Going from the maps in Naruto, the ocean Madara's blast covered was about the size of the pacific ocean. Since the blast traveled through the bulk of it's distance, we can infer from scaling that it was around 12,300 miles long. Calcing that it traveled that in five seconds, the blast was going around 8,856,000 mph, or mach 11,531. Hashirama dodged this easily, meaning his reaction speed is above that. Madara with Rinnegan was even stronger and faster, meaning he is well above mach 11,531, at least with reaction speed. "

If you're too stupid to understand simple mathematics, that's your problem, not mine.

Calculations happen to be much more reliable than your fanboy assumptions of Aizen being faster than lightning.

As I explained a hundred times already, the hogyoku only powers you up to a certain extent, as the scans I've posted prove.

Did this guy just say the Naruto continent = Planet? What the actual **** man.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Did this guy just say the Naruto continent = Planet? What the actual **** man.

he loves madara what can i say.

im trying to explain to him how spiritual pressure works and hes missing the whole point and thinking it works ht e same as chakra.
but even so thats besides the point.

he still is failing to show any feats that dematerailization the same as shunpo


look at my next post and tell me if you agree

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Did this guy just say the Naruto continent = Planet? What the actual **** man.

"As you can see, the lands are joined together, making it a supercontinent. The lightning country takes up more than a seventh of its land mass. This means? The lightning country is the size of a large continent, like South America."

Maybe you just can't read.

Originally posted by yungz22
he loves madara what can i say.

im trying to explain to him how spiritual pressure works and hes missing the whole point and thinking it works ht e same as chakra.
but even so thats besides the point.

he still is failing to show any feats that dematerailization the same as shunpo


look at my next post and tell me if you agree

You're still failing to show any feats that dematerialization is different than shunpo. All you can do is speculate on this, but since Ichigo was faster than his dematerialization, you can infer(if you're not a phucking retard), that it is the same as shunpo.

In a versus thread, they are the same. AGAIN, IT DOES NOT MATTER BECAUSE AIZEN HAS SHOWN NO FEATS OF DOING EVEN HALF OF WHAT MADARA HAS, SO EITHER WAY, MADARA SHITS ON HIM.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
"As you can see, the lands are joined together, making it a supercontinent. The lightning country takes up more than a seventh of its land mass. This means? The lightning country is the size of a large continent, like South America."

Maybe you just can't read.

You can't just make that shit up dude. We have no indication in this series that the Five Ninja nations=a planet. Just because Kishi didn't specify something doesn't mean you can automatically infer what it is.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
http://naruto-fans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/worldmap.jpg

This is the planet of Naruto. As you can see, the lands are joined together, making it a supercontinent. The lightning country takes up more than a seventh of its land mass. This means? The lightning country is the size of a large continent, like South America.

The only genjutsu that requires eye contact in all of Naruto is Tsukiyomi. Most genjutsu require seals or hand signs. If you have sharingan however, you can cast adept Uchiha genjutsu that only requires visual contact, or in Itachi's case, pointing. Hell, even Izanami only required you to utter the name of the attack.

The Jyuubi's chakra made the meteor that Madara conjured with a gesture before he even had a single Biju? No, Madara summoned the town sized meteor, that could continent bust, which is why Onoki said they needed to stop it or the war would be over.

For the last time you dense phuck, that is the same for EVERY action series. If you are stronger than someone to a great extent, they can't hurt you. Again, the Bleach characters only have reiatsu, which is active permanently because they are souls. Naruto characters have to summon their chakra with their will, it isn't being used unless they want it to be. It doesn't matter though, because Madara has VASTLY superior strength, durability, speed and energy feats.

Ichigo couldn't cut Grimmjow because of his hierro, retard. Just fyi, that's spiritual resistance.

"Shunpo isn't the same speed for all shinigami. Aizen's shunpo is still not anywhere near as fast as Gin's bankai, which was calced to be less than mach 50. Aizen wasn't even able to outrun the explosion of Yamamoto's shikai, which explodes at roughly mach 24. Going from the maps in Naruto, the ocean Madara's blast covered was about the size of the pacific ocean. Since the blast traveled through the bulk of it's distance, we can infer from scaling that it was around 12,300 miles long. Calcing that it traveled that in five seconds, the blast was going around 8,856,000 mph, or mach 11,531. Hashirama dodged this easily, meaning his reaction speed is above that. Madara with Rinnegan was even stronger and faster, meaning he is well above mach 11,531, at least with reaction speed. "

If you're too stupid to understand simple mathematics, that's your problem, not mine.

Calculations happen to be much more reliable than your fanboy assumptions of Aizen being faster than lightning.

As I explained a hundred times already, the hogyoku only powers you up to a certain extent, as the scans I've posted prove.


Ok what do you have to say about kenpachi not being cut by ichigo's sword ok and how is hiero pierced? why it can only be pierced if someone high enough spiritual pressure can cut it. Madara isnt immune to swords or knifes he has to use

We both know that aizen didnt dodge yama's attack because yama grabbed his foot while his back was turned

im not gonna argue with you about the whole juubi thing even though i dont think the whole lighting country was destroyed but rather just the cloud village or where ever the head quarters is. because that stuff doesnt matter. Azien isnt fighting the juubi hes fighting madara.

If we go by the rules of naruto if someone injects energy into you while under genjutsu. That genjutsu will be broken. well as a metter of fact aizen hs the hogyoku which has a mind of its own as well as constantly pumps energy into its host. as a result genjutsu wont be of much help against aizen. Also aizen doesnt even have a chakra network. hes not a human hes a spirit so one could argue that genjutsu might not even affect aizen.

that regen feat you put up is edo madara... Aizen isnt fighting edo madara hes fighting regular human madara so if he was to use the meteor hed be killing himself. Hell the meteor didnt even kill oonoki. he got up moments later and was giving speeches about the will of stone. and yes he may have made one meteor lighter he didnt make the second one lighter so in fact he did take the force of two meteors.


Also madara is not trained in reatsu he is just a human so it is true that infact that aizen could crush madara with his spiritual pressure. even those who are trained in the art of reatsu (grimmjow) are brought down to their knee. by the pressure it causes

it doesnt work like chakra. reatsu and chakra are two totally things i keep trying to explan it to you but your totally disregarding the facts.

and im not done

shunpo means flash step it is the user moving at extremely fast speeds. is a movement technique, which allows the user to move faster than the eye can follow. The focal point which determines the basis of this technique is speed. As speed is the main point of the technique, the method is best characterized by how fast one can get from point A to point B in the least amount of steps.

dematerializing yourself and appearing somewhere else is teleportation much different than shunpo aizen is capable of this...... the 4th hokage and second hokage are the only two in the naruto verse capable of this when the criterias are met


Madara has no speed feats that put him close to aizens. i dont like using calculations but since your so gung ho on it lets use calcs plus logic its been. Its been calculated that KCM Naruto is hypersonic you should agree with that because thats what your alluding to earlier. in the soul society arc we see captians like byakuaya and yoroichi travel vast distances using flash steps. ichigo when he uses bankai against byakuya has been calculated at hypersonic in the ss arc. ichigos speed was overwhelming byakuya. That same arc Aizen stopped with ichigo's attack his finger. This is an example of his reaction time and how overwhelming spiritual pressure negates all attakcs now throughout the series ichigo grows stronger and faster after mastering hollowfication. but still having a hard time with grimmjow. at that time aizen is faster than both. this puts aizen casually at hypersonic plus. and hes only going to get faster as the series progresses with the crysillis transformations by the end of the series putting him at high hypersonic+ just using power scale logic aizen at the end of the series is leagues faster than anyone in the naruto series.

Madara has no speed feats. you just insulting me and stating madara is faster with no real feats is not going to convince anyone.

speed advantage aizen



what actual movement feats does madara have?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
You can't just make that shit up dude. We have no indication in this series that the Five Ninja nations=a planet. Just because Kishi didn't specify something doesn't mean you can automatically infer what it is.

I'm not making shit up "dude". You're even dumber than I originally assumed if you think that the ninja world is one continent. They wouldn't call it a world if it wasn't a planet, retard. Kakashi showed a diagram of the world, and it showed exactly what I posted, but with less detail.

Originally posted by yungz22
shunpo means flash step it is the user moving at extremely fast speeds. is a movement technique, which allows the user to move faster than the eye can follow. The focal point which determines the basis of this technique is speed. As speed is the main point of the technique, the method is best characterized by how fast one can get from point A to point B in the least amount of steps.

dematerializing yourself and appearing somewhere else is teleportation much different than shunpo aizen is capable of this...... the 4th hokage and second hokage are the only two in the naruto verse capable of this when the criterias are met


Madara has no speed feats that put him close to aizens. i dont like using calculations but since your so gung ho on it lets use calcs plus logic its been. Its been calculated that KCM Naruto is hypersonic you should agree with that because thats what your alluding to earlier. in the soul society arc we see captians like byakuaya and yoroichi travel vast distances using flash steps. ichigo when he uses bankai against byakuya has been calculated at hypersonic in the ss arc. ichigos speed was overwhelming byakuya. That same arc Aizen stopped with ichigo's attack his finger. This is an example of his reaction time and how overwhelming spiritual pressure negates all attakcs now throughout the series ichigo grows stronger and faster after mastering hollowfication. but still having a hard time with grimmjow. at that time aizen is faster than both. this puts aizen casually at hypersonic plus. and hes only going to get faster as the series progresses with the crysillis transformations by the end of the series putting him at high hypersonic+ just using power scale logic aizen at the end of the series is leagues faster than anyone in the naruto series.

Madara has no speed feats. you just insulting me and stating madara is faster with no real feats is not going to convince anyone.

speed advantage aizen



what actual movement feats does madara have?

You are obviously not aware of what teleportation is. First off, they do not have it in Bleach OR Naruto. The Hiraishin moves the user at the speed of light, but is more practical for battle as it can be used constantly, whereas there is a transportation jutsu in the lightning country that only the kage can use that also sends you somewhere at the speed of light, albeit much more dangerous and less practical for battle.

http://i8.mangapanda.com/bleach/418/bleach-2399577.jpg

If what you're saying is that Ichigo is able to react to something that bypasses time, then you're mentally retarded. Teleportation is instant. No time passes from when you teleport to when you reappear. Something like Instant transmission, or Guldo's time stop. Aizen does NOT teleport, and as I've just proven, simply has a refined version of shunpo.

The argument "Its been calculated that KCM Naruto is hypersonic you should agree with that because thats what your alluding to earlier.", holds no ground in an actual debate. If you're going to post calcs, then post calcs, not assumptions, half-truths, and bullshit that is simply false. I already calced their speeds. If that's wrong, then show me why. Give more accurate calcs. You can't though, because I used accurate feats to gauge their speeds.

"Shunpo isn't the same speed for all shinigami. Aizen's shunpo is still not anywhere near as fast as Gin's bankai, which was calced to be less than mach 50. Aizen wasn't even able to outrun the explosion of Yamamoto's shikai, which explodes at roughly mach 24. Going from the maps in Naruto, the ocean Madara's blast covered was about the size of the pacific ocean. Since the blast traveled through the bulk of it's distance, we can infer from scaling that it was around 12,300 miles long. Calcing that it traveled that in five seconds, the blast was going around 8,856,000 mph, or mach 11,531. Hashirama dodged this easily, meaning his reaction speed is above that. Madara with Rinnegan was even stronger and faster, meaning he is well above mach 11,531, at least with reaction speed. "



Yoroichi even stated her shunpo was faster than Byakuya's, meaning it's not instant.

That bullshit powerscaling you just did based off of assumptions is useless. Powerscaling is sometimes the most reliable means of gauging someones abilities, but don't just say, "He's been calced to be hypersonic", and then powerscale it to be high hypersonic later on. Show me PROOF that he's hypersonic, like I did. You can't though, because it's not true. Aizen is at most mach 24. He was damaged by Yamamoto's kido, so he would have dodged it if he could have. Yamamoto was still holding him when the kido went off, yet Aizen came out in just seconds. This means Yamamoto either let go of Aizen just before the kido exploded, or Aizen escaped his grip beforehand. Either way, the explosion outran Aizen, and explosions of that caliber have velocities of mach 24, meaning Aizen is a bit slower than mach 24. It's that simple.

It's not a matter of convincing anyone. This is fact. You cannot disprove it, or disregard it, so it is the most indisputable fact that has been given in this speed debate.

Speed advantage Madara.

What actual feats does Aizen have that pit him above mach 25? None, so don't even bother with the uneducated reply you're about to post.

i would give madara the edge in destructive ability but aizen is going to lose because of these factors

1. Aizen is simply faster that cant be argued Madara has no feats

2. spiritual pressure could crush madara because he is a regular human and isnt trained in the arts of reatsu. Even those trained in reatsu have been defeated by spiritual pressure alone.

3. battle experience. aizen has been in soul society for hundreds hes been through countless battles

4. Kyoka suigetsu madara has no answer for it. Kyoka suigetsu is complete sensory manipulation through hypnosis that means all senses including any perception of 6th senses like chakra or reatsu. its too hax

5. kido and bakudo. Madara has no defense over the level 90 gravity time/space kido like kurohitsugi. He aldo has an immense knowledge of the different bakudo that could bind madara and stop his movement. plus there are offensive and defensive kido spells

6. adaptive evolution- hogyoku we know what it does

7. immortatality and superb regen

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I'm not making shit up "dude". You're even dumber than I originally assumed if you think that the ninja world is one continent. They wouldn't call it a world if it wasn't a planet, retard. Kakashi showed a diagram of the world, and it showed exactly what I posted, but with less detail.

The Naruto world has never been referred to has a planet. I'm pretty sure your referring to this and that was exclusive to the anime. This is the actual explanation Kakashi gives. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-14-16/naruto/chapter-9.html

Yeah those are countries bud...all on the same continent to boot.

Originally posted by yungz22
Ok what do you have to say about kenpachi not being cut by ichigo's sword ok and how is hiero pierced? why it can only be pierced if someone high enough spiritual pressure can cut it. Madara isnt immune to swords or knifes he has to use

We both know that aizen didnt dodge yama's attack because yama grabbed his foot while his back was turned

im not gonna argue with you about the whole juubi thing even though i dont think the whole lighting country was destroyed but rather just the cloud village or where ever the head quarters is. because that stuff doesnt matter. Azien isnt fighting the juubi hes fighting madara.

If we go by the rules of naruto if someone injects energy into you while under genjutsu. That genjutsu will be broken. well as a metter of fact aizen hs the hogyoku which has a mind of its own as well as constantly pumps energy into its host. as a result genjutsu wont be of much help against aizen. Also aizen doesnt even have a chakra network. hes not a human hes a spirit so one could argue that genjutsu might not even affect aizen.

that regen feat you put up is edo madara... Aizen isnt fighting edo madara hes fighting regular human madara so if he was to use the meteor hed be killing himself. Hell the meteor didnt even kill oonoki. he got up moments later and was giving speeches about the will of stone. and yes he may have made one meteor lighter he didnt make the second one lighter so in fact he did take the force of two meteors.


Also madara is not trained in reatsu he is just a human so it is true that infact that aizen could crush madara with his spiritual pressure. even those who are trained in the art of reatsu (grimmjow) are brought down to their knee. by the pressure it causes

it doesnt work like chakra. reatsu and chakra are two totally things i keep trying to explan it to you but your totally disregarding the facts.

and im not done

What are you even saying? Kenpachi raised his spiritual pressure dramatically to push Ichigo to his knees and make his sword attacks useless. If he was just using his normal spiritual pressure that he does when walking around, Ichigo would have been able to cut him. He used energy to do it.

I already replied to this shitty excuse for someone being slower than mach 24. Aizen was much stronger than Yamamoto, and could have easily broken his grip, which he did since he came out seconds later. Either that or Yamamoto released his grip just before or during the explosion. Otherwise Aizen wouldn't have gotten out.

"The fight takes place at the Valley of the End.

Current incarnation of Madara.

Round 1: Madara has his Edo Tensei Body and Aizen has all his powers.

Round 2: No regeneration for either of them.", OP states this.

So neither have regeneration. I was just giving feats from both of them. However, Madara still has his meteor feat which he has shown to be easily capable of breaking through with Susano'o. Kabuto didn't even know the extent of his powers at that point, so his statements are void, as stated and proven by Madara.

Onoki didn't die because Gaara and the Rubber guy stopped the meteor as much as they could. Onoki had still stopped the first one, meaning they actually had a sort of shield to block the first one's force with.

The Jyuubi isn't as strong as Madara. That's why he could control it with just his physical contact. Plus, Madara threw dozens of Yasaka magatama at the kage, which did as much damage as the meteor. Not to mention he still has the Perfect Susano'o, which could easily block anything Aizen threw at him, as well as kill him with a single slash. Him drawing his sword cut two mountains in half, more than Aizen swinging at full force did, literally two times more. Not to mention that with the same full force swing Aizen did from Madara, he was able to cut five mountains in half. Madara would godstomp Aizen.

Tsunade was able to interact with Dan's ghost just with her using chakra. This proves that Naruto characters can fight and touch ghosts.

Reiatsu and Chakra ARE different, but Reiatsu and ki are pretty much the same thing. Again, it's just a difference within the series. However, Chakra can be used to touch ghosts, i.e. fight them, and can be used to do MANY more attacks or jutsu. Since these jutsu are made from chakra, they can ALSO hit ghosts. Mountain sized fireballs, Giant air streams with the fore of tornadoes, Gaint water bullets, Huge mountains created to drop on people as well as meteors, Lightning bolts and entire dragons made from them, as well as entire forests to constrict or hit someone, can ALL affect soul reapers. Madara can use all of these since he has the rinnegan, as well as the other rinnegan abilities like hax summons, energy leeching, almighty push, universal pull, planetary devastation, soul splitting and control of the devil. Madara can use all these abilities to easily counter anything Aizen has.

I'm just about done, actually. This is becoming sadder and sadder by the minute.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You are obviously not aware of what teleportation is. First off, they do not have it in Bleach OR Naruto. The Hiraishin moves the user at the speed of light, but is more practical for battle as it can be used constantly, whereas there is a transportation jutsu in the lightning country that only the kage can use that also sends you somewhere at the speed of light, albeit much more dangerous and less practical for battle.

http://i8.mangapanda.com/bleach/418/bleach-2399577.jpg

If what you're saying is that Ichigo is able to react to something that bypasses time, then you're mentally retarded. Teleportation is instant. No time passes from when you teleport to when you reappear. Something like Instant transmission, or Guldo's time stop. Aizen does NOT teleport, and as I've just proven, simply has a refined version of shunpo.

The argument "Its been calculated that KCM Naruto is hypersonic you should agree with that because thats what your alluding to earlier.", holds no ground in an actual debate. If you're going to post calcs, then post calcs, not assumptions, half-truths, and bullshit that is simply false. I already calced their speeds. If that's wrong, then show me why. Give more accurate calcs. You can't though, because I used accurate feats to gauge their speeds.

"Shunpo isn't the same speed for all shinigami. Aizen's shunpo is still not anywhere near as fast as Gin's bankai, which was calced to be less than mach 50. Aizen wasn't even able to outrun the explosion of Yamamoto's shikai, which explodes at roughly mach 24. Going from the maps in Naruto, the ocean Madara's blast covered was about the size of the pacific ocean. Since the blast traveled through the bulk of it's distance, we can infer from scaling that it was around 12,300 miles long. Calcing that it traveled that in five seconds, the blast was going around 8,856,000 mph, or mach 11,531. Hashirama dodged this easily, meaning his reaction speed is above that. Madara with Rinnegan was even stronger and faster, meaning he is well above mach 11,531, at least with reaction speed. "



Yoroichi even stated her shunpo was faster than Byakuya's, meaning it's not instant.

That bullshit powerscaling you just did based off of assumptions is useless. Powerscaling is sometimes the most reliable means of gauging someones abilities, but don't just say, "He's been calced to be hypersonic", and then powerscale it to be high hypersonic later on. Show me PROOF that he's hypersonic, like I did. You can't though, because it's not true. Aizen is at most mach 24. He was damaged by Yamamoto's kido, so he would have dodged it if he could have. Yamamoto was still holding him when the kido went off, yet Aizen came out in just seconds. This means Yamamoto either let go of Aizen just before the kido exploded, or Aizen escaped his grip beforehand. Either way, the explosion outran Aizen, and explosions of that caliber have velocities of mach 24, meaning Aizen is a bit slower than mach 24. It's that simple.

It's not a matter of convincing anyone. This is fact. You cannot disprove it, or disregard it, so it is the most indisputable fact that has been given in this speed debate.

Speed advantage Madara.

What actual feats does Aizen have that pit him above mach 25? None, so don't even bother with the uneducated reply you're about to post.

so naruto is only hypersoncic when you say he is.... where did you get your numbers from....its genral knowledge that ichigo versus byakuya is hypersonic you can look it up yourself i dont have to put up random number if your not showing your source either.
ichigo is faster than naruto.
but let me ask a quesiton how fast is ichimaru's shikai if you have all these "calculation"?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
The Naruto world has never been referred to has a planet. I'm pretty sure your referring to this and that was exclusive to the anime. This is the actual explanation Kakashi gives. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-14-16/naruto/chapter-9.html

Yeah those are countries bud...all on the same continent to boot.

http://i8.mangapanda.com/naruto/594/naruto-3461601.jpg

Kurama states that the ten tails is the progenitor of the world. He also says in a previous page that the ten tails created all the countries. This obviously refers to the Naruto world as being a planet. I also remember that they said that sage mode used the energy of the planet, iirc.

^^* You said that the five countries = a planet. I proved to you that it wasn't. And even though the Juubi is responsible for everything that exists in the ninja world it still didn't create it because how else do you explain Kagura. Speaking of which, the Juubi didn't actually become the Juubi until Kaguya stole its fruit.

Also what you showed was a mountain range at best not an actual "exterior" view of the planet. And said mountain range doesn't cover any known countries or islands. So again countries =/= planets

Originally posted by yungz22
so naruto is only hypersoncic when you say he is.... where did you get your numbers from....its genral knowledge that ichigo versus byakuya is hypersonic you can look it up yourself i dont have to put up random number if your not showing your source either.
ichigo is faster than naruto.
but let me ask a quesiton how fast is ichimaru's shikai if you have all these "calculation"?

"Aizen wasn't even able to outrun the explosion of Yamamoto's shikai, which explodes at roughly mach 24."

"Going from the maps in Naruto, the ocean Madara's blast covered was about the size of the pacific ocean. Since the blast traveled through the bulk of it's distance, we can infer from scaling that it was around 12,300 miles long. Calcing that it traveled that in five seconds, the blast was going around 8,856,000 mph, or mach 11,531. Hashirama dodged this easily, meaning his reaction speed is above that. Madara with Rinnegan was even stronger and faster, meaning he is well above mach 11,531, at least with reaction speed."

As you can see, I got my numbers from feats in the manga. You don't even have numbers, just your vague assumptions.

Look it up. Explosions typically expand at the speed of mach 24 while on Earths surface.

Again, if you're too stupid to understand basic mathematics, then it's your problem, not mine.

It's not general knowledge if it's not true. If there are calcs supporting it, then show them to me. If not, then you're wrong and you hereby withdraw any accuracy in this debate.

Just because you say something, doesn't mean it's true.

As I have proven however, Madara's MUCH faster than Aizen. Also, Naruto is LS, and Ichigo isn't even mach 50.

It doesn't simply work like that. I would need a speed feat that ties in to science or logic produced by Gin's shikai. As far as I know though, no such feat exists. It's safe to say though that it's nowhere near as fast as Aizen, which is mach 24, so probably like mach 15 or something. I can't calc it though because there's nothing to compare it to and it hasn't been stated. If it had, anyone could find it out other than you, as it's simple mathematics and reasoning.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
^^* You said that the five countries = a planet. I proved to you that it wasn't. And even though the Juubi is responsible for everything that exists in the ninja world it still didn't create it because how else do you explain Kagura. Speaking of which, the Juubi didn't actually become the Juubi until Kaguya stole its fruit.

Also what you showed was a mountain range at best not an actual "exterior" view of the planet. And said mountain range doesn't cover any known countries or islands. So again countries =/= planets

You proved that the countries were on a continent. This does not mean it isn't a supercontinent, as there are no known countries or settlements outside of the countries, making it safe to assume that they are the collection of the planets land mass. The Jyuubi DID create the planet because it was originally a giant tree. The Jyuubi was the form it took on to take it's chakra back, but it was still originally the gods tree, that created the planet. Still a reference to Naruto's world being a planet.

The Naruto wiki also says that the Naruto countries make up the planet.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Geography

Are you talking about the Jyuubi bomb? No, it was a country/continent buster, as it destroyed the entire cloud village/lightning country.

What's the source the wiki cites to say it's the whole planet?

I posted the link. Either way, the only think we can assume with what we're given is that there are no countries or lands outside of the ones we've seen, making the countries as a whole, the collection of land mass on the Naruto world, or in other words, a supercontinent, making all the countries continent sized.

you still havent shown were these calcs are coming from your only throwing numbers at me and wherever your getting them from if whoevers came up with the formulas there using to get these nu,ber if they dont have a degree they arent credible.

...also you cant use the yama explosion because Aizen yama grabbed aizen while his back was turned... Yama is one of the strongest characters to ever live in soul society. hell even by that point in the series Aizen even admitted that yama jii was stronger than him so he of all people would be able to hold him and stop him from avoiding the attack...

naruto light speed? oh now youve gone too far thats dbz status

Originally posted by yungz22
you still havent shown were these calcs are coming from your only throwing numbers at me and wherever your getting them from if whoevers came up with the formulas there using to get these nu,ber if they dont have a degree they arent credible.

...also you cant use the yama explosion because Aizen yama grabbed aizen while his back was turned... Yama is one of the strongest characters to ever live in soul society. hell even by that point in the series Aizen even admitted that yama jii was stronger than him so he of all people would be able to hold him and stop him from avoiding the attack...

naruto light speed? oh now youve gone too far thats dbz status

ALSO YAMAMOTO LOST HIS ARM DURING THE EXPLOSION DONT YOU THINK THAT IS WHY AIZEN GOT OUT WHILE THE EXPLOSION WAS STILL GOING

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I posted the link. Either way, the only think we can assume with what we're given is that there are no countries or lands outside of the ones we've seen, making the countries as a whole, the collection of land mass on the Naruto world, or in other words, a supercontinent, making all the countries continent sized.

You posted a wiki-link. Bentley was probably asking for the scans referenced in the wiki-link. Burden of proof dictates that if you make a claim you should be able to back it up with concrete evidence. It is not the responsibility of the other guy to do it for you.

Also you keep mentioning the Juubi biju-bomb was a country buster so where are these scans. Its a definite city-buster and arguably the best destruction feat in the HST but what reasoning do you have for stating that its a country-buster. Please post scans of these events if possible.

you cant use wikipedia for proof... wikipedia is not a credible source did you not learn that i school.

Madara has no Movement feats whatsoever sure he may have more destructive power than aizen ill give you that. but speed kills along with the other factor i keep posting above regular madara loses. Now sage madara might be a different story

aizen is faster if you judge it by feats. We seen him move faster than Madara ever has.

i still cant believe you said naruto is lightspeed dbz characters arent even that fast. except for gokus instant transmission.

the juubi is merely isnt a continent buster i dont even think country buster... city buster id agree.... the juubi only destroyed wherever was and im thinking thats the cloud village.... not the whole lightningcountry

whose to say the world map couldnt be expaned upon if kishi wanted he could have exploerer travel the seas and discover new regions.... sota like how there used to be only one pokemon world map which was kanto but look how much its been expanded now theres more than 4 different regions that have been discoverd or created. The naruto world map is only a map of a continent they are aware of if kishi wanted he could add on to it...

Madara would win at their initial levels, but would need to seal Aizen before the whole evolving thing.

Originally posted by yungz22
you cant use wikipedia for proof... wikipedia is not a credible source did you not learn that i school.

Madara has no Movement feats whatsoever sure he may have more destructive power than aizen ill give you that. but speed kills along with the other factor i keep posting above regular madara loses. Now sage madara might be a different story

aizen is faster if you judge it by feats. We seen him move faster than Madara ever has.

i still cant believe you said naruto is lightspeed dbz characters arent even that fast. except for gokus instant transmission.

the juubi is merely isnt a continent buster i dont even think country buster... city buster id agree.... the juubi only destroyed wherever was and im thinking thats the cloud village.... not the whole lightningcountry

whose to say the world map couldnt be expaned upon if kishi wanted he could have exploerer travel the seas and discover new regions.... sota like how there used to be only one pokemon world map which was kanto but look how much its been expanded now theres more than 4 different regions that have been discoverd or created. The naruto world map is only a map of a continent they are aware of if kishi wanted he could add on to it...

imeant to say juubi destroyed the cloud village becaus ehtats where hq was

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Madara would win at their initial levels, but would need to seal Aizen before the whole evolving thing.

read my numbered reasons aizen would win on the previous page

Originally posted by yungz22
you cant use wikipedia for proof... wikipedia is not a credible source did you not learn that i school.

Madara has no Movement feats whatsoever sure he may have more destructive power than aizen ill give you that. but speed kills along with the other factor i keep posting above regular madara loses. Now sage madara might be a different story

aizen is faster if you judge it by feats. We seen him move faster than Madara ever has.

i still cant believe you said naruto is lightspeed dbz characters arent even that fast. except for gokus instant transmission.

the juubi is merely isnt a continent buster i dont even think country buster... city buster id agree.... the juubi only destroyed wherever was and im thinking thats the cloud village.... not the whole lightningcountry

whose to say the world map couldnt be expaned upon if kishi wanted he could have exploerer travel the seas and discover new regions.... sota like how there used to be only one pokemon world map which was kanto but look how much its been expanded now theres more than 4 different regions that have been discoverd or created. The naruto world map is only a map of a continent they are aware of if kishi wanted he could add on to it...

You are phucking retarded. The Naruto wiki is not wikipedia, dumb phuck. Even though wikipedia IS a credible source, and that's an excuse middle school teachers like yours use to keep you from cheating.

-_-

Are you inbred?

http://i8.mangapanda.com/naruto/529/naruto-2031871.jpg

They later said this jutsu was a primitive, unrefined version of Minato's FTG, which also teleports you at light speed. This makes Naruto light speed.

I don't want to get started on DBZ light speed, because going by feats and calcs, I can prove that base Namek saga Goku was over 70,700 times faster than light speed just with his flight speed.

It was stated by Pein or someone that if you had all nine tailed beasts you could use their power to destroy entire countries in an instant. I don't remember the page or have the scan, but you haven't posted any scans yet, so...

We haven't seen Aizen move faster. For the last time, he is MUCH stronger than Yamamoto, and it was even stated that he was. He broke Yama's grip and still didn't escape the explosion.

http://i10.mangapanda.com/bleach/396/bleach-2400547.jpg

This scan reveals that Aizen escaped Yama's grip just before the explosion. If Yamamoto's arm got torn off, it was by Aizen pulling it off to escape.

For the last time, the only thing you have to counter my calcs with is your baseless assumptions that have already been disproven by the manga. Aizen is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger than Yamamoto, and you saying he isn't shows your fan-tardation.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You are phucking retarded. The Naru, dumb phuck. Even though wikipedia IS a credible source, and that's an excuse middle school teachers like yours use to keep you from cheating.

-_-

Are you inbred?

http://i8.mangapanda.com/naruto/529/naruto-2031871.jpg

They later said this jutsu was a primitive, unrefined version of Minato's FTG, which also teleports you at light speed. This makes Naruto light speed.

I don't want to get started on DBZ light speed, because going by feats and calcs, I can prove that base Namek saga Goku was over 70,700 times faster than light speed just with his flight speed.

It was stated by Pein or someone that if you had all nine tailed beasts you could use their power to destroy entire countries in an instant. I don't remember the page or have the scan, but you haven't posted any scans yet, so...

We haven't seen Aizen move faster. For the last time, he is MUCH stronger than Yamamoto, and it was even stated that he was. He broke Yama's grip and still didn't escape the explosion.

http://i10.mangapanda.com/bleach/396/bleach-2400547.jpg

This scan reveals that Aizen escaped Yama's grip just before the explosion. If Yamamoto's arm got torn off, it was by Aizen pulling it off to escape.

For the last time, the only thing you have to counter my calcs with is your baseless assumptions that have already been disproven by the manga. Aizen is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger than Yamamoto, and you saying he isn't shows your fan-tardation.

Im actually in college and no wikipedia isnt a credible source. Good look on any future research papers you might have if you think otherwise. Wikis are online encyclopedias. anybody can change information on it that is why it isnt credible as well as. You still fail to produce the sources credibility for your calcs. this means that you have to prove the credibility of the person who calculated this stuff in the first place. If you just go around quoting sources that arent credited i feel sorry for you in school because its gonna definitely hurt your grades. insulting me isnt going to change my opinion so idk why you continue with it. its actually rather childish only kids insult people when during arguments in an attempt to win it. now back to the argument

Aizen stated himself that Yamamoto was stronger than him before that explosion even occured what are you talking about. and yama's didnt lose his arm until after the explosion initiated so of course hes going to get his with by the explosion. Also after that aizen is only going to get stronger and faster. once he enters crysalis stages he becomes stronger than Yama jii. What movement speed feats does madara have you still fail to answer that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucGubAJnWHY --- you mean to tell me that this is LS start at 3:45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9MKOvq2WxA - but this isnt start at 5:07

you clearly have a biased opinion both instances are in the manga so using the anime is plausible since both show canon material and aizen is clearly faster.

Originally posted by yungz22
Im actually in college and no wikipedia isnt a credible source. Good look on any future research papers you might have if you think otherwise. Wikis are online encyclopedias. anybody can change information on it that is why it isnt credible as well as. You still fail to produce the sources credibility for your calcs. this means that you have to prove the credibility of the person who calculated this stuff in the first place. If you just go around quoting sources that arent credited i feel sorry for you in school because its gonna definitely hurt your grades. insulting me isnt going to change my opinion so idk why you continue with it. its actually rather childish only kids insult people when during arguments in an attempt to win it. now back to the argument

Aizen stated himself that Yamamoto was stronger than him before that explosion even occured what are you talking about. and yama's didnt lose his arm until after the explosion initiated so of course hes going to get his with by the explosion. Also after that aizen is only going to get stronger and faster. once he enters crysalis stages he becomes stronger than Yama jii. What movement speed feats does madara have you still fail to answer that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucGubAJnWHY --- you mean to tell me that this is LS start at 3:45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9MKOvq2WxA - but this isnt start at 5:07

you clearly have a biased opinion both instances are in the manga so using the anime is plausible since both show canon material and aizen is clearly faster.

You are obviously NOT in college, as is proven through your grammar.

How do I have a biased opinion, when you're the one judging a characters speed by what their anime looks like? The Yellow flash is able to teleport at the speed of light, as is Naruto.

You still have posted NOTHING to support your claims, and as such, this discussion is over. You have proved nothing, and I have. I win, you lose.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You are obviously NOT in college, as is proven through your grammar.

How do I have a biased opinion, when you're the one judging a characters speed by what their anime looks like? The Yellow flash is able to teleport at the speed of light, as is Naruto.

You still have posted NOTHING to support your claims, and as such, this discussion is over. You have proved nothing, and I have. I win, you lose.

lol It even looks faster in the manga

http://www.manga2u.me/Bleach/388/12/
http://www.manga2u.me/Bleach/388/13/



who cares about grammar on a forum nobodys grading my work and i dont care. Lol i Am in college i go to ohio state university. i dont feel like proof reading

Where are your so called calcs that say he's light speed because everyone ive read clearly state hes hypersonic.

The Flying Thunder God Technique is a technique created by the Second Hokage, Tobirama Senju, which allows the user to transport themselves to a given marked location instantaneously. the hiraishin is not a movement feat its a jutsu that teleports you to a location.

without those kunai he the 4th nor the second are moving at that speed.



are you saying that naruto is faster than hei who is an upper sclass demon.

here goes naruto in the manga

http://www.manga2u.me/Naruto/601/16/
http://www.manga2u.me/Naruto/601/17/

cmon man hes clearly not faster than aizen

lol hes clearly not moving lightspeed

of my seven points i posted earlier their all fact their isnt anything to prove.... You still have yet to show me a madara speed feat that looks even remotely close to aizen's speed.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You are obviously NOT in college, as is proven through your grammar.

How do I have a biased opinion, when you're the one judging a characters speed by what their anime looks like? The Yellow flash is able to teleport at the speed of light, as is Naruto.

You still have posted NOTHING to support your claims, and as such, this discussion is over. You have proved nothing, and I have. I win, you lose.


Im sorry dude Naruto is not LS that's a preposterous statement. Your gonna have to prove that one. If he is LS that would put Aizen at an entirely whole another speed level.

Both Bankai level ichigo WITHOUT the mask and Naruto have been calced at hypersonic. I bet you will find more calculations that say that than youll find saying Naruto is LS

If naruto was faster than the flying thunder god technique he wouldnt have needed Tobirama to attack Sage Obito. Its common logic

Originally posted by chasedown
If naruto was faster than the flying thunder god technique he wouldnt have needed Tobirama to attack Sage Obito. Its common logic

Hiraishin = Light speed, not Sage mode Naruto = Light speed.

You obviously haven't read any of my posts.

Originally posted by yungz22
lol It even looks faster in the manga

http://www.manga2u.me/Bleach/388/12/
http://www.manga2u.me/Bleach/388/13/



who cares about grammar on a forum nobodys grading my work and i dont care. Lol i Am in college i go to ohio state university. i dont feel like proof reading

Where are your so called calcs that say he's light speed because everyone ive read clearly state hes hypersonic.

The Flying Thunder God Technique is a technique created by the Second Hokage, Tobirama Senju, which allows the user to transport themselves to a given marked location instantaneously. the hiraishin is not a movement feat its a jutsu that teleports you to a location.

without those kunai he the 4th nor the second are moving at that speed.



are you saying that naruto is faster than hei who is an upper sclass demon.

How the phuck does that matter, retard? You remind me of Arnie from What's eating Gilbert Grape.

http://i19.mangapanda.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399491.jpg

Does THIS "look" light speed? Not even close. Does it look like Superman is going light speed when we see him clearly moving? Not even close. Do you know why? It's because things in action series with people moving like that are shown from the characters POV's, not ours. That's why while Ichigo and Zangetsu are moving much faster than humans can even perceive, they are clearly visible to us. If you don't understand that even though you've clearly watched/read action series before, then you've obviously been diagnosed with some form of mental retardation.

http://i3.mangapanda.com/naruto/12/naruto-1565056.jpg

Going by your definition, THIS looks like light speed, so it MUST be. However, we both know this is nothing in terms of Naruto speed.

What speed is determined by is feats, statements and scaling, not from biased speculation from a ten year old reading online manga thinking that characters are light speed because they vanish from our view.

Going by that logic, even Nana in this scan is FTL.

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/29/088.0/compressed/11_009.jpg?v=11209662167

Originally posted by yungz22
lol It even looks faster in the manga

http://www.manga2u.me/Bleach/388/12/
http://www.manga2u.me/Bleach/388/13/



who cares about grammar on a forum nobodys grading my work and i dont care. Lol i Am in college i go to ohio state university. i dont feel like proof reading

Where are your so called calcs that say he's light speed because everyone ive read clearly state hes hypersonic.

The Flying Thunder God Technique is a technique created by the Second Hokage, Tobirama Senju, which allows the user to transport themselves to a given marked location instantaneously. the hiraishin is not a movement feat its a jutsu that teleports you to a location.

without those kunai he the 4th nor the second are moving at that speed.



are you saying that naruto is faster than hei who is an upper sclass demon.

The FTG is NOT instant. It was said to be a refined version of the cloud teleportation jutsu, and it only teleports you at the speed of light.

Okay, but Naruto still is. Not to mention that the Second hokage is NOT light speed, as Minato's teleportation is superior to his, being light speed. That's why you can see the stream of Hiaraishin when someone uses it.

Yes, Naruto and most upper tier characters in Naruto ARE indescribably faster than Hiei.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
The FTG is NOT instant. It was said to be a refined version of the cloud teleportation jutsu, and it only teleports you at the speed of light.

Okay, but Naruto still is. Not to mention that the Second hokage is NOT light speed, as Minato's teleportation is superior to his, being light speed. That's why you can see the stream of Hiaraishin when someone uses it.

Yes, Naruto and most upper tier characters in Naruto ARE indescribably faster than Hiei.


You realize your the only one who believes this right?

Naruto cant teleport the 4th is still faster than him with ftg. Teleportation is not movement at the speed of light

And that manga example of nana is invalid because it doesnt show distance of a character moving from point a to b
For someone who believes so much i calcs why dont you believe the calcs when it comes to narutos speed


Also you do realize that lower s class demons speed is calced at mach 50 hei is much faster than that at end of the series

Originally posted by chasedown
You realize your the only one who believes this right?

*you're

That's fine. That just means that I'm the only one who's not mentally retarded. Good argument.

Originally posted by chasedown
Naruto cant teleport the 4th is still faster than him with ftg. Teleportation is not movement at the speed of light

And that manga example of nana is invalid because it doesnt show distance of a character moving from point a to b
For someone who believes so much i calcs why dont you believe the calcs when it comes to narutos speed


Also you do realize that lower s class demons speed is calced at mach 50 hei is much faster than that at end of the series

Naruto has been able to use FTG since the minute he used Chakra mode.

http://i8.mangapanda.com/naruto/529/naruto-2031871.jpg

Hm, teleportation isn't light speed?

Except it does on the next chapter, dumb ****. It shows a character vanishing from sight, which according to yungz instantly makes them light speed.

Nice job throwing around statements with no basis like the yungz dude. You two are obviously brain dead, so just get back to your ignorant pondering and leave debating to the adults. Either show proof with calcs, scans, statements and feats, or just keep your stupidity to yourself.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Naruto has been able to use FTG since the minute he used Chakra mode.


Hm, teleportation isn't light speed?

Except it does on the next chapter, dumb ****. It shows a character vanishing from sight, which according to yungz instantly makes them light speed.

Nice job throwing around statements with no basis like the yungz dude. You two are obviously brain dead, so just get back to your ignorant pondering and leave debating to the adults. Either show proof with calcs, scans, statements and feats, or just keep your stupidity to yourself.


I read yungz argument he never said anyone was ls. Your the only person that thinks naruto is LS. Naruto doesnt have FTG only the 4th and the second have that ability. If naruto was ls he wouldnt have needed the 2nd the hit sage obito with that rasengan.

I basically was comparing naruto's speed with aizen's and saying if you think naruto attack against madara was at light speed then what aizen did to ichigo would be way faster then light speed because clearly the faster person of those two instances was aizen in both manga and anime comparisons.

Originally posted by chasedown
I read yungz argument he never said anyone was ls. Your the only person that thinks naruto is LS. Naruto doesnt have FTG only the 4th and the second have that ability. If naruto was ls he wouldnt have needed the 2nd the hit sage obito with that rasengan.

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucGubAJnWHY --- you mean to tell me that this is LS start at 3:45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9MKOvq2WxA - but this isnt start at 5:07"

He didn't huh? He obviously insinuated that the second clip was LS.

http://i6.mangapanda.com/naruto/505/naruto-1459126.jpg

Doesn't have FTG? Hmm. mmm

"For the last time retard, Naruto is only LS in KCM, not Sage mode."

Originally posted by yungz22
I basically was comparing naruto's speed with aizen's and saying if you think naruto attack against madara was at light speed then what aizen did to ichigo would be way faster then light speed because clearly the faster person of those two instances was aizen in both manga and anime comparisons.

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/3388/278604-11px9_super.gif

Does THIS look light speed? No, but it is, due to statements and/or narration.

This one scan proves that how it "looks" obviously has NOTHING to do with how fast it actually is. Just like how in DBZ, Vegeta though Goku was tricking them with fast movement, while actually using instant transmission. It was actually (literally)INFINITELY faster than they thought it was, just because Vegeta used the same biased, ignorant, overall stupid and just plain incorrect, logic that you do.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Um, kind of. However, just it being a "space-time ninjutsu", doesn't mean it's literally bypassing time. A simple bunshin is also a space-time ninjutsu, but is only fast movement that kicks up dirt.

FTG is a jutsu that uses chakra to move the user as a mass of light, i.e. the "Yellow flash".

http://i6.mangapanda.com/naruto/505/naruto-1459126.jpg

http://i34.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/naruto-2431455.jpg

http://i9.mangapanda.com/naruto/571/naruto-3010503.jpg

These examples are all just off the top of my head. How high are you, to think that Naruto, who has specifically been dubbed in his series "The second yellow flash, can't use the "yellow flash"?

Madara's speed feats are as mentioned in previous posts by me. Read the manga if you don't know them, before getting into debates you clearly have no place in.

You dont think the fact that naruto's chakra cloak emits yellow light as he dodge raikage's punch.could be the reason they said its "like" the yellow flash. Naruto is not teleporting otherwise he wouldnt need others to do it.


Also the kyubbi whipped those bijuu bombs away with a chakra tail he didnt teleport them.


Where is madara's speed feat? You seem to be dodging the question.

He was stating that he learned a savior doenst make mistakes from his father not FTG

Originally posted by yungz22
You dont think the fact that naruto's chakra cloak emits yellow light as he dodge raikage's punch.could be the reason they said its "like" the yellow flash. Naruto is not teleporting otherwise he wouldnt need others to do it.


Also the kyubbi whipped those bijuu bombs away with a chakra tail he didnt teleport them.


Where is madara's speed feat? You seem to be dodging the question.

...

If it wasn't the yellow flash, they wouldn't say it was like it. Especially A and Bee who have both seen it up close. Others? What "others"? Naruto only needs to be in KC or Biju modes. For the last time, he can't use it in sage mode. If you can't comprehend that, then just shut the **** up already, because you sound ****ing retarded.

Chakra tail? Based on? He obviously lashed out at them, otherwise Obito wouldn't have used the world repel.

"Madara was able to toss around attacks that he and Hashirama reacted to and dodged that traveled across oceans in about the same amount of time. He was able to solo five people that could move extremely fast, one who was faster than lightning. He dodged Biju bombs, attacks that could travel to other continents in less than thirty seconds."

As you can see, I was dodging the question because I've already answered it, dumb phuck.

Originally posted by yungz22
He was stating that he learned a savior doenst make mistakes from his father not FTG

...

mmm

What you just said literally makes no sense.

Ive never seen such a delusional naruto fan. Ive been searching and still havent found any calcs saying hes lightspeed or anything that says he can use ftg. nor can you show me any calcs. Every single one ive looked at states otherwise and trust me i looked at alot. Your the one who put emphasis on calcs in the beginning of this conversation. yet all you can show me is Just YOUR interpretation of a manga page."like" doesnt mean "is". and there are also different translations for that manga page too. Even in the anime the wording is slightly different

Naruto is just really fast. Hypersonic though not lightspeed. he didnt use ftg against the third raikage, 2nd tsuchikage or madara. He didnt teleport the bijuu bombs he whipped them away with his chakra.
If you read the words on the manga page naruto clearly states that he learned that savior stuff from his father.

" As you said raikage grandpa a savior doesn't make mistakes so i wont. Exactly like my father. Exactly as i learned from him." - Naruto's words

Originally posted by yungz22
Ive never seen such a delusional naruto fan.


lmao




naruto is extremely fast just not LS bro

Naruto also needed his father to teleport the ninja alliance away from the multiple bijuu bombs

Originally posted by yungz22
Ive never seen such a delusional naruto fan. Ive been searching and still havent found any calcs saying hes lightspeed or anything that says he can use ftg. nor can you show me any calcs. Every single one ive looked at states otherwise and trust me i looked at alot. Your the one who put emphasis on calcs in the beginning of this conversation. yet all you can show me is Just YOUR interpretation of a manga page."like" doesnt mean "is". and there are also different translations for that manga page too. Even in the anime the wording is slightly different

Naruto is just really fast. Hypersonic though not lightspeed. he didnt use ftg against the third raikage, 2nd tsuchikage or madara. He didnt teleport the bijuu bombs he whipped them away with his chakra.
If you read the words on the manga page naruto clearly states that he learned that savior stuff from his father.

" As you said raikage grandpa a savior doesn't make mistakes so i wont. Exactly like my father. Exactly as i learned from him." - Naruto's words

...

You're ****ing retarded, and the only one other than you that can't see that is chasedown.

I've given scans. Why do I need some calcs that you look up on Google, when I have CANNON MANGA SCANS???

I've already posted several scans of Naruto using Hiraishin, so you are obviously too much of a biased fantard to accept the FACT that Naruto can use Hiraishin and Hiraishin IS LIGHTSPEED, MAKING NARUTO USING HIRAISHIN LIGHTSPEED.

God-phucking-damn, how stupid can a person be?

If Naruto can't use Hiraishin, prove it. I already proved that he can, yet you can't post a single thing other than your own speculation, proving that he can't.

Originally posted by chasedown
Naruto also needed his father to teleport the ninja alliance away from the multiple bijuu bombs

All this proves is that Naruto can't use it on multiple people. He doesn't use the seals like Minato does, he just uses his chakra. You still have done nothing but post your own personal speculation, so you've proved yourself to be almost as ignorant and biased as yungz.

Your scans didnt prove anything nobody said he was using FTG. All they say is they saw a yellow flash that doesnt automatically mean he used FTG "like" doesnt mean is. And Why cant he use it in sage mode The 4th did hiraishin while in sage mode.

If naruto knew ftg why didnt he use it against the kage he fought or against madara. Also have you seen naruto use any kunai with seals on them like tobirama and the 4th..... How could naruto learn ftg if nobody was alive to teach him.


Cmon bro light speed that would mean naruto could make his way around the earth in seconds... This obviously isnt the case because he didnt travel to all the battle locations within seconds it took a while for him to get there. It didnt take him that long but if he was lightspeed he would got there leagues faster than anybody else.

Lol its like not only are you claiming naruto is ls your saying hes faster than light. Thats textbook fanboyism. That would make naruto faster than a shitload of anime characters which clearly isnt the case. I mean if it suits you to think that i guess its fine whatever makes you happy i guess as long as you know your the only one that believes that.

Whatever, the scans are there, and if you're too much of a fan-tard in denial to accept the facts, then that's your own problem. It's painfully obvious that I've won, and Naruto can use Hiraishin. You dodging my point proves you wrong even more.

If anyone else wants to take a whack at this retard, you're welcome. Even plain scans and logic couldn't prove it to him, so good luck.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Whatever, the scans are there, and if you're too much of a fan-tard in denial to accept the facts, then that's your own problem. It's painfully obvious that I've won, and Naruto can use Hiraishin. You dodging my point proves you wrong even more.

If anyone else wants to take a whack at this retard, you're welcome. Even plain scans and logic couldn't prove it to him, so good luck.

Lol your the one being a fan tard claiming naruto is lightspeed. Ive been on these forums for years and have yet to see an overexaggerated claim that wanks naruto's abilities such as this one.

Nobody stated naruto used FTG in those scans so they dont prove anything. All the were describing is seeing a yellow trail of light when naruto moved. This is due to his YELLOW chakra cloak that surrounds him when in KCM mode. All you did was make a claim without actually thinking about what your actually saying. Now lets think about it again.

Lets use logic you say naruto is lightspeed right? Well it is a known fact that light can travel around the earth around 7 or 8 times per second. Now we dont know how large the Naruto verse actually is but the maps that weve seen show that naruto is on the same continent as those in the war. Now if naruto was Lightspeed dont you think he and all of the clones would have gotten to the battlefields in a much shorter time than it took them to get there? Honestly just think about it.

Another thing FTG requires kunai and seals to work. Have you seen naruto do this? NO you havent. The only people that would be able to teach him are dead so theres no way he could learn it anyway. Unless he asked those leaf ninja that helped tsunade with there version of FTG. Even then naruto would only be able to use it with two other people.

I just quoted what naruto said about what he learned from hos farher from YOUR scan.

Also you made a claim that FTG cant be used while in sage mode. Well actually your wrong the 4th used it in sage mode.

Theres your logic for you. Plain and simple.

Originally posted by yungz22
Lol your the one being a fan tard claiming naruto is lightspeed. Ive been on these forums for years and have yet to see an overexaggerated claim that wanks naruto's abilities such as this one.

Nobody stated naruto used FTG in those scans so they dont prove anything. All the were describing is seeing a yellow trail of light when naruto moved. This is due to his YELLOW chakra cloak that surrounds him when in KCM mode. All you did was make a claim without actually thinking about what your actually saying. Now lets think about it again.

Lets use logic you say naruto is lightspeed right? Well it is a known fact that light can travel around the earth around 7 or 8 times per second. Now we dont know how large the Naruto verse actually is but the maps that weve seen show that naruto is on the same continent as those in the war. Now if naruto was Lightspeed dont you think he and all of the clones would have gotten to the battlefields in a much shorter time than it took them to get there? Honestly just think about it.

Another thing FTG requires kunai and seals to work. Have you seen naruto do this? NO you havent. The only people that would be able to teach him are dead so theres no way he could learn it anyway. Unless he asked those leaf ninja that helped tsunade with there version of FTG. Even then naruto would only be able to use it with two other people.

I just quoted what naruto said about what he learned from hos farher from YOUR scan.

Also you made a claim that FTG cant be used while in sage mode. Well actually your wrong the 4th used it in sage mode.

Theres your logic for you. Plain and simple.

The fantard is the one denying outright scans and proof just because he wants his favorite to win. In otherwords, you, dumb phuck.

Those scans say Naruto's jutsu dodging Raikage is just like Hiraishin. After seeing Naruto use it, Tobirama even said that it was remarkable that he could use his own jutsu better than him. Since you're assuming that he can't, even with that much proof, I have the right to assume that you're a dumb ass, and that Naruto can use Hiraishin, because I have more proof that he can then you have that he can't.

It took all of the Naruto's just a couple minutes to reach the battle fields. Not to mention that the databooks specify that he can only teleport a mile at a time. Plus, the original had Killer Bee with him and had to slow down for him, that's why all the clones ported away from him as soon as he summoned them.

Why do you assume that? It's never been stated that Hiraishin requires seals, only by Minato. We've seen the second hokage use it with just a kick-start, to stab Madara's brother.

Now lets talk about YOUR logic for a second. Just because no one taught him, you assume he can't use it? Okay, then let me ask you this. Why could Goku go Super Saiyan when no one was there to teach him? Why could Minato use rasengan when no one was there to teach him? Why could Minato use rinnegan when no one was there to teach him? If someone invents, or re-invents a technique, they're still using said technique. Naruto uses a different form of Hiraishin. He doesn't use the kind Tobirama or Minato uses, but his own, that can only be used in chakra mode.

Um, Minato can use Hiraishin in base form, dumb phuck, of course he can use it in sage mode. I'm talking about Naruto, who has only been shown to use it in KCM, BM, or SBM(sage biju mode). He can presumably NOT use it in regular sage mode.

That's YOUR logic. Plain and simple.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
The fantard is the one denying outright scans and proof just because he wants his favorite to win. In otherwords, you, dumb phuck.

Those scans say Naruto's jutsu dodging Raikage is just like Hiraishin. After seeing Naruto use it, Tobirama even said that it was remarkable that he could use his own jutsu better than him. Since you're assuming that he can't, even with that much proof, I have the right to assume that you're a dumb ass, and that Naruto can use Hiraishin, because I have more proof that he can then you have that he can't.

It took all of the Naruto's just a couple minutes to reach the battle fields. Not to mention that the databooks specify that he can only teleport a mile at a time. Plus, the original had Killer Bee with him and had to slow down for him, that's why all the clones ported away from him as soon as he summoned them.

Why do you assume that? It's never been stated that Hiraishin requires seals, only by Minato. We've seen the second hokage use it with just a kick-start, to stab Madara's brother.

Now lets talk about YOUR logic for a second. Just because no one taught him, you assume he can't use it? Okay, then let me ask you this. Why could Goku go Super Saiyan when no one was there to teach him? Why could Minato use rasengan when no one was there to teach him? Why could Minato use rinnegan when no one was there to teach him? If someone invents, or re-invents a technique, they're still using said technique. Naruto uses a different form of Hiraishin. He doesn't use the kind Tobirama or Minato uses, but his own, that can only be used in chakra mode.

Um, Minato can use Hiraishin in base form, dumb phuck, of course he can use it in sage mode. I'm talking about Naruto, who has only been shown to use it in KCM, BM, or SBM(sage biju mode). He can presumably NOT use it in regular sage mode.

That's YOUR logic. Plain and simple.


When did tobirama state naruto could use ftg he was clearly talking anout the shadow clone jutsu.... Are you saying that all those jutsu including goku turning super saiyan are the same as a space/time dimension technique.... Ftg is a different case it requires a procedure to be performed.


But you yourself implied before that naruto surpassed his father why wouldnt he be able to use it in sage mode that makes no sense. The two arent linked or needed to perform the other.

Yea he reached there in minutes which is still way slower than lightspeed. If naruto could move at light speeds he wouldnt have had his bijuu taken away -from him since he can as you can say teleport.

And its like we know we arent alone when it comes to this whole lightspeed thing every single forum ive google disagrees with you. There is a concept called speaking with hyperbole that you probably dont grasp. All bee and tsunade say is they saw a yellow flash when naruto moved. That doesnt automatically equal lightspeed. All the chances naruto has had to use ftg during his battles with obito and madara and we havent seen him use it even once..... Dont you think ftg would have been useful to naruto during those battles if he could do it.

Current Madara wins.

Pre-Juubi Madara loses

Originally posted by Blazing Storm
Current Madara wins.

Pre-Juubi Madara loses

Agreed

Although i dont think it would be easy as kyoka suigetsu and aizens planning abulity might prove to be a problem

Originally posted by Blazing Storm
Current Madara wins.

Pre-Juubi Madara loses

Except even Sasuke could shit on Aizen.

No one in all of Bleach can come to the level of raw speed OR power seen from higher tier Naruto characters, that casually move faster than lightning and throw around mountain range to even country busting attacks. The force of Aizens AND Dangai Ichigo's swords cut a mountain in half. Madara with perfect Susano'o cut two in half just by drawing his sword.

I think Madara with both Rinngans and Sage mode would win. Don't see how Aizen could get pass Senjustu powered PS. Four BDs by Rikudou Juubi couldn't completely destroy Edo Madara's PS and Sage mode boosts abilities by at least 10x(based on statements about CS2 which is just a weaker version of it).

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Except even Sasuke could shit on Aizen.

No one in all of Bleach can come to the level of raw speed OR power seen from higher tier Naruto characters, that casually move faster than lightning and throw around mountain range to even country busting attacks. The force of Aizens AND Dangai Ichigo's swords cut a mountain in half. Madara with perfect Susano'o cut two in half just by drawing his sword.

Not sure about lightning speed.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Except even Sasuke could shit on Aizen.

No one in all of Bleach can come to the level of raw speed OR power seen from higher tier Naruto characters, that casually move faster than lightning and throw around mountain range to even country busting attacks. The force of Aizens AND Dangai Ichigo's swords cut a mountain in half. Madara with perfect Susano'o cut two in half just by drawing his sword.

Aizen is too smart for sasuke


First you say Lightspeed now its speed of lightning where is the body movement proof of this.
Bleach characters Dangai ichigo and aizen are leagues faster than anybody in naruto. They easily clear large distances faster than anyone in naruto has except for techniques like FTG. Weve literally seen characters in bleach move miles with one step.
Although naruto charaters are fast we havent seen any of them do this feat barring FTG.

Originally posted by Zamiel
I think Madara with both Rinngans and Sage mode would win. Don't see how Aizen could get pass Senjustu powered PS. Four BDs by Rikudou Juubi couldn't completely destroy Edo Madara's PS and Sage mode boosts abilities by at least 10x(based on statements about CS2 which is just a weaker version of it).

you havent taken into account aizen's speed factor and kyoka suigetsu. Although Madara's destructive capabilites are greater has no counter for aizens' kyoka or brains or speed.

Originally posted by chasedown
First you say Lightspeed now its speed of lightning where is the body movement proof of this. Bleach characters Dangai ichigo and aizen are leagues faster than anybody in naruto. They easily clear large distances faster than anyone in naruto has except for techniques like FTG. Weve literally seen characters in bleach move miles with one step.
Although naruto charaters are fast we havent seen any of them do this feat barring FTG.


I wouldn't say light or lightning speed. But Naruto characters have have shown sonic-supersonic reaction/reflexes and movements.

-CS1 Sasuke dodged Zaku's supersonic airpressure attack while carrying Naruto and Sakura. So anyone who uses senjustu should have supersonic reaction and reflexes.
-Termari swung her fan before sound reached her.
-6th Gated Gai's punches and kicks is stated to move at speeds faster than sound. To the point of causing frictions in air and starting a fire.
-Kisame was able to telegraph Gai's flaming kick(commenting that it was fast before it made contact).
-7th-8th Gated Gai's punches are so fast they cause air pressure powerful enough to push back and damage to Bijuu level threats (Kisame with Gyuuki chakra and Rikudou Madara).




While I was talking more about the durability of Madara's PS. If Aizen goes straight to using Kyoka Suigetsu, sure he would win.

Oh and KCM Naruto's speed was compared to FTG.

Originally posted by Zamiel
Oh and KCM Naruto's speed was compared to FTG.


Compared doesnt mean he knows it if he did obito wouldnt have blitzed him like he did and he wouldnt have needed the kages to save him.

Naruto characters are hypersonic.... Ichigo was hypersonic against byakuya in bankai form

Originally posted by chasedown
Compared doesnt mean he knows it if he did obito wouldnt have blitzed him like he did and he wouldnt have needed the kages to save him.

I didn't mean that he knew it, but that he could probably travel large distance really fast like FTG since it was compared to it.



Is that based on some rather complicated calculation?

Originally posted by Zamiel
I didn't mean that he knew it, but that he could probably travel large distance really fast like FTG since it was compared to it.



Is that based on some rather complicated calculation?

yes it has been calcd and the calc formula was accepted. Bankai ichigo is generally accepted around the anime community to be hypersonic easily. as he gets stronger during the series his speed grew. Dangai ichigo is still hypersonic but ranging from mid to high tier hypersonic. Most likely mid. Many have calcd him to be so

Aizen literrally has thousands of years of battle experience over madara and is a better strategist and master manipulator

Originally posted by yungz22
yes it has been calcd and the calc formula was accepted. Bankai ichigo is generally accepted around the anime community to be hypersonic easily. as he gets stronger during the series his speed grew. Dangai ichigo is still hypersonic but ranging from mid to high tier hypersonic. Most likely mid. Many have calcd him to be so

See, this is what pisses me off with the arguments you and the Based idiot supply me with.

You make baseless assumptions and statements with no proof, calcs, scans or even statements, and you expect me to show scans, proof and calcs of every single thing that I argue about.

http://i1.mangapanda.com/naruto/391/naruto-7890.jpg

See this? Zetsu's explanation alone proves Itachi to have lightning speed plus reactions. Sasuke was able to perceive and even blitz Itachi, proving that Raikage, who's speed was far above what Sasuke could counter, is AT THE VERY LEAST lightning speed+.

You dumb phucks STILL HAVEN'T EVEN GIVEN A SINGLE EXPLANATION AS TO WHY AIZEN IS FASTER THAN MADARA. And no, saying "Aizen looks like he's moving faster" is NOT a valid argument, as I proved by posting that Superman scan.

If you disagree with my calcs, post something disproving them, otherwise you admit your own stupidity.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
See, this is what pisses me off with the arguments you and the Based idiot supply me with.

You make baseless assumptions and statements with no proof, calcs, scans or even statements, and you expect me to show scans, proof and calcs of every single thing that I argue about.

http://i1.mangapanda.com/naruto/391/naruto-7890.jpg

See this? Zetsu's explanation alone proves Itachi to have lightning speed plus reactions. Sasuke was able to perceive and even blitz Itachi, proving that Raikage, who's speed was far above what Sasuke could counter, is AT THE VERY LEAST lightning speed+.

You dumb phucks STILL HAVEN'T EVEN GIVEN A SINGLE EXPLANATION AS TO WHY AIZEN IS FASTER THAN MADARA. And no, saying "Aizen looks like he's moving faster" is NOT a valid argument, as I proved by posting that Superman scan.

If you disagree with my calcs, post something disproving them, otherwise you admit your own stupidity.




itachi got hit with a shuriken are you saying shurkiken are faster than lightning.

Originally posted by chasedown
Aizen literrally has thousands of years of battle experience over madara and is a better strategist and master manipulator

What does the thousands of years experience do for Aizen? He has the same advantage on Goku, but due to the fact that Goku is a much better fighter, with speed quadrillions of leagues above him, as well as power and destructive output that makes the entire Bleach verse cower in fear from Krillin level characters, Goku SHITS on Aizen before he even fought Raditz. Just like Madara does.

What do you have to base that on? Aizen is a manipulative expert, but who from Naruto isn't? Aizen had the authority of the highest kind in Bleach, and still managed to lose where Madara who was an exiled traitor has succeeded.

Originally posted by chasedown
itachi got hit with a shuriken are you saying shurkiken are faster than lightning.

Sasuke only landed that hit because he outsmarted Itachi.

Just like in Bleach when Ichigo threw a giant boulder at Ulquiorra and hit him. What you're implying is literally that anyone throwing something can only move at the same speed. So... The rock that Nappa threw at Goku which was moving fast enough to leave Earth's atmosphere was going the same speed as the shuriken thrown by Konohamaru that PTS Naruto dodged easily?

Itachi was outsmarted by Sasuke, already on his deathbed, and not even aiming to win the fight.

If you want to assume that Sasuke's strategy had nothing to do with his shuriken hitting Itachi, then yes, you need to assume that he can move his shuriken faster than lightning.

Dumb ass.

http://animeshowdownold.wikispaces.com/Kurosaki+Ichigo
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Aizen_Sosuke
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=17326
http://anime-showdown.wikispaces.com/Character+Profile+-+S%C5%8Dsuke+Aizen
http://fictionalfights.wikispaces.com/Aizen+Sosuke
http://omniversal.wikispaces.com/Character+Profile+-+Hollow+Ichigo
http://cosmicanime.wikispaces.com/Aizen+Sosuke
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/HSTInfinity's_Bleach_Speed_Calculation
http://anime-showdown.wikispaces.com/Character+Profile+-+T%C5%8Dshir%C5%8D+Hitsugaya ---both hitsuguya and ichigo have performed the same feat dodging gins shikai. ichigo even better dodged both bankai and shikai.
http://cosmicanime.wikispaces.com/Grimmjow+Jaggerjack
http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=203881&highlight=Bleach+speed+calculations
http://comicdash.wikispaces.com/Sosuke+Aizen
http://comicdash.wikispaces.com/Ichigo+Kurosaki
http://fictionalfights.wikispaces.com/Madara+Uchiha

http://www.narutoforums.com/showpost.php?p=36346029&postcount=1 --- ss arc Shikai ichigo is mach 4 hypersonic starts at mach 5

its general knowledge throughout the whole anime community bleach characters are easily hypersonic to hypersonic plus.
barring use of ftg top tier naruto characters are only hypersonic.

http://deadliestfictionalwarrior.wikispaces.com/Hypersonic

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Sasuke only landed that hit because he outsmarted Itachi.

Just like in Bleach when Ichigo threw a giant boulder at Ulquiorra and hit him. What you're implying is literally that anyone throwing something can only move at the same speed. So... The rock that Nappa threw at Goku which was moving fast enough to leave Earth's atmosphere was going the same speed as the shuriken thrown by Konohamaru that PTS Naruto dodged easily?

Itachi was outsmarted by Sasuke, already on his deathbed, and not even aiming to win the fight.

If you want to assume that Sasuke's strategy had nothing to do with his shuriken hitting Itachi, then yes, you need to assume that he can move his shuriken faster than lightning.

Dumb ass.
you have to realize that the part of the shuriken that hit sasuke was not thrown by him it was propelled by the shuriken itself. Itachi was hit by a regular real worldy moving shurkin. Even Zetsu said he should have dodged it.
So Itachi was sick enough and on his death bed to not be able to dodge a shuriken but alos sick enough that he could dodge lightining?

heres the link that wouldnt work---http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/HSTInfinity's_Bleach_Speed_Calculation

Both hisagi and findor are both hypersonic. Both ICHIGO and Aizen are leagues faster than him

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What does the thousands of years experience do for Aizen? He has the same advantage on Goku, but due to the fact that Goku is a much better fighter, with speed quadrillions of leagues above him, as well as power and destructive output that makes the entire Bleach verse cower in fear from Krillin level characters, Goku SHITS on Aizen before he even fought Raditz. Just like Madara does.

What do you have to base that on? Aizen is a manipulative expert, but who from Naruto isn't? Aizen had the authority of the highest kind in Bleach, and still managed to lose where Madara who was an exiled traitor has succeeded.
Goku is a god why would you use him as an example of course aizen cant beat him goku is waaay to quick, powerful and durable for aizen. Too many factors push that in goku's favor.

Destructive out put doesnt always make you the victor in battles.Brains can prevail over strength any day ask shikamaru. In the end that is what beat aizen as urahara is the real reason aizen lost. Ichigo really lost lthat fight because aizen was up and ready for another round.

Aizen created literally a couple hundred maybe even thousand year plan. Everything he predicted to occur happened exactly the way he wanted it to. He literally manipulated all of soul society for years. He eventually succeeding in stealing the hogyoku, took control of hueco mundo in a shrt amount of time, created an army of powerful beings that were scared to disobey him even in the slightest(except for grimmjow but that was corrected), Created plans to trap the 4 captains in Hueco mundo while he invaded karakura, Took out every captain and vizard while their, Created a plan to get rid of yamamoto as he was the only one could overpower him at the time. That is what i call the perfect mixture, of strategy, brains and power. Aizen was like a troll because not only was smart he was stronger than damn near everybody. but eventually outsmarted by kisuke. If it wasnt for urahara Aizen would have suceeded.

The only Master manipulator ive seen in naruto is ORO. he literally ha a country under his control. He even had the sand village under his control for a little bit. Madara manipulated a whimpy 13 year old kid into doing his work for him

Originally posted by yungz22
http://animeshowdownold.wikispaces.com/Kurosaki+Ichigo
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Aizen_Sosuke
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=17326
http://anime-showdown.wikispaces.com/Character+Profile+-+S%C5%8Dsuke+Aizen
http://fictionalfights.wikispaces.com/Aizen+Sosuke
http://omniversal.wikispaces.com/Character+Profile+-+Hollow+Ichigo
http://cosmicanime.wikispaces.com/Aizen+Sosuke
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/HSTInfinity's_Bleach_Speed_Calculation
http://anime-showdown.wikispaces.com/Character+Profile+-+T%C5%8Dshir%C5%8D+Hitsugaya ---both hitsuguya and ichigo have performed the same feat dodging gins shikai. ichigo even better dodged both bankai and shikai.
http://cosmicanime.wikispaces.com/Grimmjow+Jaggerjack
http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=203881&highlight=Bleach+speed+calculations
http://comicdash.wikispaces.com/Sosuke+Aizen
http://comicdash.wikispaces.com/Ichigo+Kurosaki
http://fictionalfights.wikispaces.com/Madara+Uchiha

http://www.narutoforums.com/showpost.php?p=36346029&postcount=1 --- ss arc Shikai ichigo is mach 4 hypersonic starts at mach 5

its general knowledge throughout the whole anime community bleach characters are easily hypersonic to hypersonic plus.
barring use of ftg top tier naruto characters are only hypersonic.

http://deadliestfictionalwarrior.wikispaces.com/Hypersonic

This is a notable attempt at proving Bleach speed to me, but these all have one thing in common.

NONE OF THEM USE AN ACCURATE TIME FRAME.

The Hisagi one is garbage because you don't know if that silo was steel, and was far more likely a weak metal like aluminum.

The one with pixel scaling was more believable, but still didn't give any kind of time frame. You know why? Because it's never been specified in Bleach. They rarely ever give time frames, and if they do, they still don't care to give distance or any specific details that create huge variables that can give them ranges of speed from barely mach 1 to mach 30.

Either way, you still haven't given a single calc, scan or statement to prove speed. Only a few idiots pixel scaling and some retards assumption that a water tank was made from steel.

Can I take that as a concession?

Originally posted by yungz22
you have to realize that the part of the shuriken that hit sasuke was not thrown by him it was propelled by the shuriken itself. Itachi was hit by a regular real worldy moving shurkin. Even Zetsu said he should have dodged it.
So Itachi was sick enough and on his death bed to not be able to dodge a shuriken but alos sick enough that he could dodge lightining?

Did you also forget that Sasuke used lightning chakra to amplify the speed and slicing power of the shurikens? Zetsu did say Itachi could have dodged it, but again, he wasn't even trying to win the fight. He was trying to give Sasuke Amaterasu, which is why he used Susano'o to block Kirin. Either way, it simply shows that Itachi's speed can range from him just phucking around at low mach speed to well over lightning speed when he's actually trying.



Again though, you said it yourself in a previous post. The fastest/strongest doesn't always win. Sasuke landed that hit because he strategically rigged it.

Originally posted by yungz22
heres the link that wouldnt work---http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/HSTInfinity's_Bleach_Speed_Calculation

Both hisagi and findor are both hypersonic. Both ICHIGO and Aizen are leagues faster than him

As I said just a post or two ago, there's no way to know that water silo was made of steel. It could be any metal. The calc is based entirely upon assumptions, and is completely bogus. As are all of these Bleach calc sites you provided.

Originally posted by yungz22
Goku is a god why would you use him as an example of course aizen cant beat him goku is waaay to quick, powerful and durable for aizen. Too many factors push that in goku's favor.

Destructive out put doesnt always make you the victor in battles.Brains can prevail over strength any day ask shikamaru. In the end that is what beat aizen as urahara is the real reason aizen lost. Ichigo really lost lthat fight because aizen was up and ready for another round.

Aizen created literally a couple hundred maybe even thousand year plan. Everything he predicted to occur happened exactly the way he wanted it to. He literally manipulated all of soul society for years. He eventually succeeding in stealing the hogyoku, took control of hueco mundo in a shrt amount of time, created an army of powerful beings that were scared to disobey him even in the slightest(except for grimmjow but that was corrected), Created plans to trap the 4 captains in Hueco mundo while he invaded karakura, Took out every captain and vizard while their, Created a plan to get rid of yamamoto as he was the only one could overpower him at the time. That is what i call the perfect mixture, of strategy, brains and power. Aizen was like a troll because not only was smart he was stronger than damn near everybody. but eventually outsmarted by kisuke. If it wasnt for urahara Aizen would have suceeded.

The only Master manipulator ive seen in naruto is ORO. he literally ha a country under his control. He even had the sand village under his control for a little bit. Madara manipulated a whimpy 13 year old kid into doing his work for him

Goku wasn't a god until the most recent DBZ movie, and even during the Saiyan saga, he would have shat on the entire Bleach-verse while laughing. Again though, Aizen still has thousands of years experience on him. I used Goku to prove that experience means nothing if your opponent simply outclasses you in every way, shape and form.

Aizen manipulated a whiny 15 year old and put on a front to everyone else. Aizen didn't have any special "plan". He weaseled his way into becoming a captain and then happened to stumble upon the info he needed to become a hollow during the hundreds of years he was a captain. Aizen's plan only worked because of how strong he was naturally, and his shikai's hax ability.

Kisuke didn't "plan" anything. He simply stacked a hado on top of another one and waited for Ichigo to weaken him so it would take effect.

Madara literally manipulated an entire clan to kill itself, before setting in motion a plan to rely on Obito and Nagato, who he had the foresight to implant his eyes in. His plan was set up for the course of dozens of years, when he didn't even have nearly as much time as Aizen did to come up with it.

Again though, Aizen's intelligence has nothing to do with this fight. He can't do anything against Madara to hurt him, and Madara can speed blitz him as well as vaporize him in seconds.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
As I said just a post or two ago, there's no way to know that water silo was made of steel. It could be any metal. The calc is based entirely upon assumptions, and is completely bogus. As are all of these Bleach calc sites you provided.

lol What are silos made of plastic? Humans mainly use tempered steel for that type of stuff. So what are you saying the metal is harder than steel?


The mayuri calc is from odb and its been accepted so has the ichigo calc.....you also posted stuff from the same type of sites lol.


Do you realize your the only one in the world that says Madara can speed blitz Aizen. Where are his movement feats?You cant back a claim like that up because madara has no feats like that and there are zero calcs that put him past hypersonic in Reaction speed.