Franklin Richards VS Dreaming Celestial

Galan007

Imo, if you pitted Franklin against just Arishem, Franklin would come out on top--as was the case with Tiamut. Conversely, I feel that if you pitted Franklin against multiple Celestials immediately afterward, the Celestials would come out on top--as was the case with Tiamut. I understand that Frank destroyed 'alternate' Celestials, but there was no indication that they were much weaker than 'mainstream' Celestials (if at all.) Furthermore, Galactus felt the need to drastically amp his personal power to combat them--something that, to my knowledge, he's only attempted one other time, and that was during the original Secret Wars when he planned on absorbing Taa II in hopes of boosting his power enough to combat Beyonder... Point: the Mad Celestials must have been enormously powerful for Galactus to feel the need to amp himself so greatly before fighting them.

That being said, it's hard for me to say who wins here. It certainly wouldn't be a stomp either way, though.

Utrigita

I'm leaning towards Tiamut, however I can't help wondering about what Tiamut said, that a Celestial could not be killed (which Franklin obviously could) so while Tiamut is powerful he didn't have the power to kill a Celestial something that Franklin demonstrated as having the power to do. I'm not sure what to put into this or to simply disregard it.

zopzop

Originally posted by Utrigita
I'm leaning towards Tiamut, however I can't help wondering about what Tiamut said, that a Celestial could not be killed (which Franklin obviously could) so while Tiamut is powerful he didn't have the power to kill a Celestial something that Franklin demonstrated as having the power to do. I'm not sure what to put into this or to simply disregard it.
People are forgetting those were ALT reality Celestials Franklin and Galactus fought. 616 Tiamut was talking about 616 Celestials. Case in point, when Thanos with the HotU killed a Celestial, Galactus was shocked.

Galan007

^ Eh, no one 'forgot' that. Quite the opposite, in fact. confused

TheLordofMurder

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Eh, no one 'forgot' that. Quite the opposite, in fact. confused

I always assumed that Franklin and Galactus simply defeated the Mad Celestials...not kill them.

TheGodKiller

Wasn't the "Knowhere" Celestial confirmed as being a dead/deceased Celestial ?

Mindset

Originally posted by Galan007
Imo, if you pitted Franklin against just Arishem, Franklin would come out on top--as was the case with Tiamut. Conversely, I feel that if you pitted Franklin against multiple Celestials immediately afterward, the Celestials would come out on top--as was the case with Tiamut. I understand that Frank destroyed 'alternate' Celestials, but there was no indication that they were much weaker than 'mainstream' Celestials (if at all.) Furthermore, Galactus felt the need to drastically amp his personal power to combat them--something that, to my knowledge, he's only attempted one other time, and that was during the original Secret Wars when he planned on absorbing Taa II in hopes of boosting his power enough to combat Beyonder... Point: the Mad Celestials must have been enormously powerful for Galactus to feel the need to amp himself so greatly before fighting them.

That being said, it's hard for me to say who wins here. It certainly wouldn't be a stomp either way, though. Good post, my friend.

May Doom bless you.Originally posted by zopzop
People are forgetting those were ALT reality Celestials Franklin and Galactus fought. 616 Tiamut was talking about 616 Celestials. Case in point, when Thanos with the HotU killed a Celestial, Galactus was shocked. Wasn't there a dead Celestial head floating around in space?

Utrigita

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Eh, no one 'forgot' that. Quite the opposite, in fact. confused

Anyway... We can't assume that the Mad Celestials were 'killed' just because Frank/Galactus destroyed their physical bodies. After all, even when Sue disintegrated Exitar ftw, it was stated that he would still be able to reform eventually... And considering the damage Frank/Galactus caused to most of the Celestials wasn't nearly as 'complete' as the atomization attack Sue wrought to Exitar in F4 #400, it's logical to assume that they might also be able to reform over time. Point being: Celestials can be beaten/incapacitated (as Sue, Frank, Galactus, and other Celestials have proven)--but they're notoriously difficult to *permanently* kill/destroy. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Thanos /w/ THOTI (and possibly Doom /w/ IG+SW Beyonder's powers), are the only characters to ever perma-kill a Celestial on panel... In any continuity.

Tiamut didn't show the capacity to damage his fellow Celestials. After his fight with Arishem the armor of Arishem was still intact. I know it's probably not important in the fight seen as Franklin is not a Celestial in the strict sense, I just think that in terms of pure powerlevel it's food for thought that Franklin was capable of accomplish something that Tiamut could not, which was to destroy/kill the physical shells of the Celestials. Tiamut still held his own against more Celestials then Franklin could have so I'm still giving the win to Tiamut.

Galan007

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Wasn't the "Knowhere" Celestial confirmed as being a dead/deceased Celestial ? Yes, but it was never revealed who/what killed that Celestial.

I can only assume that Doom played some sort of role, though.

Originally posted by Mindset
Good post, my friend.

May Doom bless you. Hallelujah, praise Victor.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Tiamut didn't show the capacity to damage his fellow Celestials. After his fight with Arishem the armor of Arishem was still intact. I know it's probably not important in the fight seen as Franklin is not a Celestial in the strict sense, I just think that in terms of pure powerlevel it's food for thought that Franklin was capable of accomplish something that Tiamut could not, which was to destroy/kill the physical shells of the Celestials. Tiamut still held his own against more Celestials then Franklin could have so I'm still giving the win to Tiamut. True. Frank seemed to have caused more damage to the Celestials' physical vessels than Tiamut did.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Galan007
True. Frank seemed to have caused more damage to the Celestials' physical vessels than Tiamut did.

Maybe that could be because Timaut faced more Celestials than Franklin and Galactus did , due to which he couldn't hope to expend more energy in destroying their physical forms ?

zopzop

For fxxk's sake. Franklin and Galactus fought alternate reality Celestials. Tiamut fought 616 reality Celestials. In 616 reality, Galactus expressed shock when Thanos with the HotU killed a Celestial. If this was something someone Galactus level was capable of, I doubt he'd have that reaction.

janus77

Galactus expresses shock everytime Surfer betrays him, I think Galactus just doesn't regard anyone below abstract as at all capable of independent thought/action.

Anyway, on-topic... Dreaming Celestial ftw. FR seems like he's equal to an average Celestial at best. The Listener or whatever her name is, beat kid Franklin, didn't she?

Galan007

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Maybe that could be because Timaut faced more Celestials than Franklin and Galactus did , due to which he couldn't hope to expend more energy in destroying their physical forms ? Tiamut fought Arishem one-on-one, and didn't seem to cause any real external damage--that's what I was referring to.

Originally posted by zopzop
For fxxk's sake. Franklin and Galactus fought alternate reality Celestials. Tiamut fought 616 reality Celestials. In 616 reality, Galactus expressed shock when Thanos with the HotU killed a Celestial. If this was something someone Galactus level was capable of, I doubt he'd have that reaction. We aren't talking about killing Celestials--that's nearly impossible. We are talking about beating/incapacitating them--which is very possible.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Galan007
Tiamut fought Arishem one-on-one, and didn't seem to cause any real external damage--that's what I was referring to.

Arishem is an alpha male among Celestials . Sure in that particular showing , Tiamut was portrayed as being his superior , but don't forget Thor#300 , in which the narrative describes him as "the mightiest of Celestials" that were present there .

So maybe , just MAYBE , it would be just that much harder to put him down(let alone damaging him) than it would be for an average Celestial . Also , while physical damage may not have been portrayed on-panel(it was Timaut's recollection after all) , considering how quickly Celestials can repair damage , its not wholly out of the realm of possibility , that Tiamut caused SOME damage to the Celestials which got repaired(all of this presumably happening off-panel) .

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
Tiamut fought Arishem one-on-one, and didn't seem to cause any real external damage--that's what I was referring to.
That's because Tiamut fought 616 Arishem. 616 Arishem was called the mightiest of the Celestials, tanked the combined blast of the three top skyfathers of Earth, had the power to destroy said skyfathers realm's gateway to Earth (sealing them off forever), destroyed the Odinsword AND the Curse on it (something Odin himself couldn't do) effortlessly.

Don't try to save Hickman from his own stupidity. The alt reality Celestials WERE destroyed. Tiamut stated 616 Celestials don't really die. Even before that Eternals issue where Tiamut said that, I believe it was stated that the reason why Tiamut was imprisoned, rather than destroyed by his brothers, was because Celestials can't be killed. This is Surfer's and Galactus' reaction when Thanos with the HotU killed 616 Ziran :
http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0306/07/m3.jpg

Alt Reality ANYTHING != 616 reality counterpart. 616 is the originator, everything else is the copy (cheap copy from the looks of it too).

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by janus77
Galactus expresses shock everytime Surfer betrays him, I think Galactus just doesn't regard anyone below abstract as at all capable of independent thought/action.

Anyway, on-topic... Dreaming Celestial ftw. FR seems like he's equal to an average Celestial at best. The Listener or whatever her name is, beat kid Franklin, didn't she?

What makes you think that ? And yes Ashema was indeed portrayed as superior to kid Franklin . Against Hickman's adult Franklin , she too would have received a (somewhat) similar treatment as the Mad Celestials did .

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop

Don't try to save Hickman from his own stupidity. The alt reality Celestials WERE destroyed. Tiamut stated 616 Celestials don't really die. Even before that Eternals issue where Tiamut said that, I believe it was stated that the reason why Tiamut was imprisoned, rather than destroyed by his brothers, was because Celestials can't be killed. This is Surfer's and Galactus' reaction when Thanos with the HotU killed 616 Ziran :
http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0306/07/m3.jpg

Alt Reality ANYTHING != 616 reality counterpart. 616 is the originator, everything else is the copy (cheap copy from the looks of it too).

I agree with you on this one . During the Universal Entropy Gun incident , the Celestial that was slagged by Reed's gun , was indeed portrayed as having been killed . While Hickman's Mad Celestials seemed to have a variable durability(from surviving an alternate UN to having their armor melted by a CCR-enhanced Johnny) , they were portrayed as being very much killable .

Compared to 616 Celestials , who have never been truly "killed" in continuity(the Exitar incident is proof of this) and when they have(one of which ,i.e the Knowhere Celestial , was an off-panel death and is questionable , as the Celestial's "ghost" came back to give Adam Warlock a warning) , it elicited major shock from onlookers as to who or what could be powerful enough to perform such a feat as killing a Celestial .

Galan007

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Arishem is an alpha male among Celestials . Sure in that particular showing , Tiamut was portrayed as being his superior , but don't forget Thor#300 , in which the narrative describes him as "the mightiest of Celestials" that were present there .

So maybe , just MAYBE , it would be just that much harder to put him down(let alone damaging him) than it would be for an average Celestial . Also , while physical damage may not have been portrayed on-panel(it was Timaut's recollection after all) , considering how quickly Celestials can repair damage , its not wholly out of the realm of possibility , that Tiamut caused SOME damage to the Celestials which got repaired(all of this presumably happening off-panel) . Eson was an 'alpha' as well--that didn't stop Galactus (who was roughly on par with Franklin at the time) from shredding through his shell. But yeah, you could very well be right.

Maybe. The main reason I'd be inclined to side with Tiamut here is based on his ability to defeat Arishem, then proceed to hold his own against 4 other Celestials. Granted Frank also beat a few Celestials, but he would have eventually been overwhelmed by the 3 of them w/o Galactus' help.

It's certainly no stomp, though.

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
That's because Tiamut fought 616 Arishem. 616 Arishem was called the mightiest of the Celestials, tanked the combined blast of the three top skyfathers of Earth, had the power to destroy said skyfathers realm's gateway to Earth (sealing them off forever), destroyed the Odinsword AND the Curse on it (something Odin himself couldn't do) effortlessly. Irrelevant. Frank>Skyfather-level.

Disagree with you about the other point. The mad Celestials were beaten--doubt they were perma-killed. No reason to assume they are any different than 616 Celestials where that is concerned...

jalek moye

Originally posted by zopzop

Alt Reality ANYTHING != 616 reality counterpart. 616 is the originator, everything else is the copy (cheap copy from the looks of it too).

There are plenty of characters and items stronger in an ult reality and plenty of chars just as strong or smart etc. It's a case by case basis not a blatant dismissal of anything not 616.

PillarofOsiris

I really hate when people use Celestials from other universes to talk about 616 Celestials. They can have WILDLY different tech, and who knows what else. It's like using someone beating Ultimate Thor's a** to talk about Thor.

PillarofOsiris

Originally posted by Galan007
No reason to assume they are any different than 616 Celestials where that is concerned...

So Ultimate Odin can bust galaxies? No reason to assume an Odin from a different universe is any different than 616 Odin.

Galan007

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
So Ultimate Odin can bust galaxies? No reason to assume an Odin from a different universe is any different than 616 Odin. So you're assuming any non-616 character is weaker than a 616 character? Where was this stated?

Hell 616 Reed himself said that his alternate versions were just as intelligent, if no moreso, than himself... And this was in the same arc that we saw the mad Celestials. So yeah...

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Galan007
Eson was an 'alpha' as well--that didn't stop Galactus (who was roughly on par with Franklin at the time) from shredding through his shell. But yeah, you could very well be right.

Maybe. The main reason I'd be inclined to side with Tiamut here is based on his ability to defeat Arishem, then proceed to hold his own against 4 other Celestials. Granted Frank also beat a few Celestials, but he would have eventually been overwhelmed by the 3 of them w/o Galactus' help.

It's certainly no stomp, though.

I doubt that Tiamut was truly trying to kill Arishem because :
1. according to Tiamut's own beliefs its impossible to kill a Celestial(so I doubt he would bother to attempt such a thing)
and ,
2. Tiamut was the supposedly the field leader at the time , and even if one of his own was trying to rebel , I doubt he would truly want to kill a brethren of his .

PillarofOsiris

You'll have to show me where I said "weaker". I'm saying you can't use one universe's character's feats to talk about another universes. Scathan, for example is clearly beyond any 616 Celestial. Ultimate Colossus can beat down Ultimate Thor. Should I use that to prove something about 616 Thor and 616 Colossus? IDK if Mad Celestials are >, =, or < 616 Celestials, but neither does anyone else, and using them to prove something about 616 Celestials is faulty.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
You'll have to show me where I said "weaker". I'm saying you can't use one universe's character's feats to talk about another universes. Scathan, for example is clearly beyond any 616 Celestial. Ultimate Colossus can beat down Ultimate Thor. IDK if Mad Celestials are >, +, or < 616 Celestials, but neither does anyone else, and using them to prove something about 616 Celestials is faulty.

I believe you meant an "=" sign there .

Galan007

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I doubt that Tiamut was truly trying to kill Arishem because :
1. according to Tiamut's own beliefs its impossible to kill a Celestial(so I doubt he would bother to attempt such a thing)
and ,
2. Tiamut was the supposedly the field leader at the time , and even if one of his own was trying to rebel , I doubt he would truly want to kill a brethren of his . Right, but as we know, you can atomize a Celestial (as Sue did) and they can still eventually reform. So Tiamut really wouldn't have had to worry about merely damaging Arishem's armor. /shrug

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
IDK if Mad Celestials are >, =, or < 616 Celestials, but neither does anyone else, and using them to prove something about 616 Celestials is faulty. You should look at their feats, then. They're quite comparable in that regard. smile

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
So you're assuming any non-616 character is weaker than a 616 character? Where was this stated?

Hell 616 Reed himself said that his alternate versions were just as intelligent, if no moreso, than himself... And this was in the same arc that we saw the mad Celestials. So yeah...
And that was the same arc where 616 Reed saved their asses and slagged AKA KILLED a Rogue Celestial with his Entropy Gun. Like I said, don't try to save Hickman from his own stupidity. mad

PillarofOsiris

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I believe you meant an "=" sign there .

Damned shift key.

jalek moye

Originally posted by Galan007
So you're assuming any non-616 character is weaker than a 616 character? Where was this stated?

Hell 616 Reed himself said that his alternate versions were just as intelligent, if no moreso, than himself... And this was in the same arc that we saw the mad Celestials. So yeah...

And MC2 Reed has possibly the best tech feat of any marvel char

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
And that was the same arc where 616 Reed saved their asses and slagged AKA KILLED a Rogue Celestial with his Entropy Gun. Like I said, don't try to save Hickman from his own stupidity. mad

Yeah , in that arc , 616 Reed's own feat trumps the (hyperbolic) statement he himself made regarding the individual intellect of his Council counterparts .
They maybe smarter than him as a COLLECTIVE(if we take Sol's Anvil into account) , but individually.......no . Just no .

Galan007

So the other Reeds not having an entropy gun on hand proves that 616 Reed is smarter than them? Can't follow that logic.

Furthermore, in that very same splash-page we see one of the mad Celestials tanking a blast from the UN. A few issues later we saw another mad Celestial tank yet another blast from a UN.

...So also take that into consideration. wink

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Galan007
So the other Reeds not having an entropy gun on hand proves that 616 Reed is smarter than them? Can't follow that logic.

Furthermore, in that very same splash-page we see one of the mad Celestials tanking a blast from the UN. A few issues later we saw another mad Celestial tank yet another blast from a UN.

...So also take that into consideration. wink

In the second instance the Celestial didn't technically tank a blast from the UN , as that Reed lost focus and ended up turning the Nullifier on himself .

zopzop

See that just makes it worse and further cements my point that Hickman is a hack. 616 Reed Entropy Gun >>>>>>>> Alt Reality UN! confused

Galan007

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
In the second instance the Celestial didn't technically tank a blast from the UN , as that Reed lost focus and ended up turning the Nullifier on himself . In the second instance we saw the nullification energies very clearly hit Eson before Reed lost concentration:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12607748_FF_14_013.jpg
Eson just tanked that shit. stick out tongue

Originally posted by zopzop
Hickman is a hack. eek!

Blasphemy!

janus77

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
What makes you think that ? And yes Ashema was indeed portrayed as superior to kid Franklin . Against Hickman's adult Franklin , she too would have received a (somewhat) similar treatment as the Mad Celestials did .
I don't recall there being anything on-panel to indicate that adult Franklin was more powerful than Kid Franklin. Just a lot more experienced and self-confident.

The Celestials themselves assessed Kid Franklin as having the potential to become one of them. Impressive as that is, it still doesn't mean he would be at the upper-end of their species.

Adult Franklin might have showings that I don't know of (most likely he does) but nothing I've seen makes me regard him as above their average.

keiththegreat

Originally posted by Galan007
In the second instance we saw the nullification energies very clearly hit Eson before Reed lost concentration:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12607748_FF_14_013.jpg
Eson just tanked that shit. stick out tongue

What comic issue is this from?

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by janus77
I don't recall there being anything on-panel to indicate that adult Franklin was more powerful than Kid Franklin. Just a lot more experienced and self-confident.

The Celestials themselves assessed Kid Franklin as having the potential to become one of them. Impressive as that is, it still doesn't mean he would be at the upper-end of their species.

Adult Franklin might have showings that I don't know of (most likely he does) but nothing I've seen makes me regard him as above their average.

It depends on where you put the Mad Celestials in comparison to their 616 counterparts , in terms of power alone . I think they are equal(based on their feats) , so I put Franklin as being somewhat above an average 616-Celestial(in terms of overall power) .

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by keiththegreat
What comic issue is this from?

Future Foundation(FF)#14 .

janus77

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
It depends on where you put the Mad Celestials in comparison to their 616 counterparts , in terms of power alone . I think they are equal(based on their feats) , so I put Franklin as being somewhat above an average 616-Celestial(in terms of overall power) .
I can live with that.
average/somewhat above average ... it's not an exact science so, yeah I'll concede and agree that he might indeed be somewhat above average.

Though, the overall point would still be that he's not beating Celestials like Tiamut, unless there's definite evidence of him exceeding the average Celestial by a good margin.

Funny thing is, AF and Galactus did about equally as well against the Mad Celestials, yet for some reason I feel that Galactus has been seriously crippled over the last few years.

keiththegreat

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Future Foundation(FF)#14 .

Thanks.

Galan007

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
It depends on where you put the Mad Celestials in comparison to their 616 counterparts , in terms of power alone . I think they are equal(based on their feats) , so I put Franklin as being somewhat above an average 616-Celestial(in terms of overall power) . Agreed. People get stuck on this notion that Franklin=a Celestial in terms of power, which isn't necessarily the case. Granted it was stated that the Celestials "felt" Franklin was on par with themselves as a child--but that certainly doesn't mean his power is capped at Celestial-level.

janus77

Originally posted by Galan007
Agreed. People get stuck on this notion that Franklin=a Celestial in terms of power--that's not the case. The only statement close to that is when it was mentioned that the Celestials "felt" Franklin was on par with themselves as a child. This certainly doesn't mean his power is capped at Celestial-level, though.
I don't remember the exact quote, but wasn't it said that he had the potential to reach their levels of power. Wasn't that the hole point of forcing him to destroy the pocket universe, teach him, mould him, help him to learn to think of the consequences of using such power.

It seemed to me that they were pretty much trying to parent him, knowing that he would end up like one of them. No mention of being anything more than that though.

Like on True Blood... with vampire Tara and her 'mum'.

Galan007

^ Yes, they wanted to teach/parent/guide him. They wanted to do this because they "felt" he was on their level:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12608228_f1.jpg

janus77

Well, given their place in the scheme of things, shouldn't we take that as more or less definitive, until such time that AF busts a few 616 Celestials or something?

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Yes, they wanted to teach/parent/guide him. They wanted to do this because they "felt" he was on their level:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12608228_f1.jpg

One thing that I never understood though is that "blue ball" which contained the HR-verse was eventually given to Eternity by Dr. Strange , which Eternity decided to contain within his own form .
Yet we are later shown that Ashema preserved that reality within her own body .

So what , or better still , who is it ? Eternity ? Or Ashema ?

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by janus77
Well, given their place in the scheme of things, shouldn't we take that as more or less definitive, until such time that AF busts a few 616 Celestials or something?

The thing is that adult Franklin has already reached his supposed full potential , so by default he is , at the very least as strong as a 616-Celestial , and based on his feats in #604 , he is slightly above them individually , and based on #582 , he is considerably above them(and possibly even in the same league as high-tier Celestials like Arishem and pre-Ascension Tiamut) .

janus77

Maybe Ashema was a he and as such is now missing one-ball? shifty

Galan007

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
One thing that I never understood though is that "blue ball" which contained the HR-verse was eventually given to Eternity by Dr. Strange , which Eternity decided to contain within his own form .
Yet we are later shown that Ashema preserved that reality within her own body .

So what , or better still , who is it ? Eternity ? Or Ashema ? Here's the whole scene:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12608265_f1.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12608268_f2.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12608271_f3.jpg

The HR-verse is contained within Ashema, who is contained within Eternity. In essence they amalgamated the instance you mentioned.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Galan007
Here's the whole scene:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12608265_f1.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12608268_f2.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12608271_f3.jpg

The HR-verse is contained within Ashema, who is contained within Eternity. In essence they amalgamated the instance you mentioned.

Thanks for clarifying . Not to mention that now there is more on-panel evidence in favor of the idea that Eternity created the Celestials .

Tar-Antado

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Thanks for clarifying . Not to mention that now there is more on-panel evidence in favor of the idea that Eternity created the Celestials .

Yeah, if this is the case then the Celestials are as powerful as Eternity wants them to be.

zopzop

Originally posted by Tar-Antado
Yeah, if this is the case then the Celestials are as powerful as Eternity wants them to be.
Now wonder they started jobbing out to losers like IW! It all makes sense now. The Jobber King had a hand in their creation?

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
Now wonder they started jobbing out to losers like IW! It all makes sense now. The Jobber King had a hand in their creation?

Eternity being their creator was alluded to in a Dr Strange comic and Heroes Reborn :
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6056/eternitycreatedcelestia.th.jpghttp://img580.imageshack.us/img580/6056/eternitycreatedcelestia.th.jpg

However , Gaiman's take seems to suggest that they are the creations of the Fulcrum aka Jack Kirby/TOAA himself . Marvel should really just get their sh!t together and leave their origin unexplained , just the way they were intended to be when Jack Kirby first conceptualized them .

Btw, who are the IW ? Infinity Watch ? And when did the Celestials job to them ?

TheGodKiller

I think that this scan seems to imply that Franklin > both Ashema AND Tiamut(individually) :
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/1778/franklinashematiamut.th.jpg
What's telling is that Tiamut is also referred as "the strongest of the host" in the very same panels .

Uriel005

Originally posted by janus77
I can live with that.
average/somewhat above average ... it's not an exact science so, yeah I'll concede and agree that he might indeed be somewhat above average.

Though, the overall point would still be that he's not beating Celestials like Tiamut, unless there's definite evidence of him exceeding the average Celestial by a good margin.

Funny thing is, AF and Galactus did about equally as well against the Mad Celestials, yet for some reason I feel that Galactus has been seriously crippled over the last few years. your just realizing this now...

Edit: About the Galactus being crippled... and its been going of for some time now imo.

janus77

I tended to ignore the jobbing to FF stuff, as that's just bog-standard PIS.

It's the stupidity of him not simply wiping Asgard (and Odin) out of existence with a simple glance kind of thing that is pathetic.

To even allow himself to be hit by Odin, to just stand there and do nothing when the Chaos King crap went down, to be a mere piece in M.o.D. and Clyde's battle...

janus77

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I think that this scan seems to imply that Franklin > both Ashema AND Tiamut(individually) :
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/1778/franklinashematiamut.th.jpg
What's telling is that Tiamut is also referred as "the strongest of the host" in the very same panels .
dunno about that... seems to state that she's basically just a consciousness and 'dead' as far as the Celestials are concerned.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by janus77
dunno about that... seems to state that she's basically just a consciousness and 'dead' as far as the Celestials are concerned.

Actually it quite literally states that when Franklin held sway over the HR-verse , nothing could harm it . However , when this dominion(preserving and protecting the HR-verse) was passed onto Ashema , the Dreaming Celestial got his opportunity to act .

Basically it tells us that when Franklin was GOD of the HR-verse , nothing(not even the Dreaming Celestial) could have harmed it . But when this position(of being GOD of the HR-verse) was passed on to Ashema , the Draming Celestial got his chance to act , which he almost succeeded in doing .

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by janus77
I tended to ignore the jobbing to FF stuff, as that's just bog-standard PIS.

It's the stupidity of him not simply wiping Asgard (and Odin) out of existence with a simple glance kind of thing that is pathetic.

To even allow himself to be hit by Odin, to just stand there and do nothing when the Chaos King crap went down, to be a mere piece in M.o.D. and Clyde's battle...

Technically speaking other Abstracts and Cosmic Beings like Eternity , Love , Hate , Ego etc . were also just "mere pieces/pawns" in MoD and Clyde's battle . Those guys were just that damn powerful .

Galan007

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I think that this scan seems to imply that Franklin > both Ashema AND Tiamut(individually) :
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/1778/franklinashematiamut.th.jpg
What's telling is that Tiamut is also referred as "the strongest of the host" in the very same panels . Agreed. The scan flat-out tells us that Tiamut didn't even try to usurp control over the HR realm until it was under Ashema's control. If Tiamut could have taken it from Franklin, he surely would have.

So yeah, I also believe that the implication there is Frank>Tiamut.

janus77

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Actually it quite literally states that when Franklin held sway over the HR-verse , nothing could harm it . However , when this dominion(preserving and protecting the HR-verse) was passed onto Ashema , the Dreaming Celestial got his opportunity to act .

Basically it tells us that when Franklin was GOD of the HR-verse , nothing(not even the Dreaming Celestial) could have harmed it . But when this position(of being GOD of the HR-verse) was passed on to Ashema , the Draming Celestial got his chance to act , which he almost succeeded in doing .
But Ashema is also said to be "dead" and just a consciousness, which should naturally have a bearing on her ability to defend the HRU from Tiamut.

Also, Franklin's level of control over the HRU could just be because it is a part of his own powers that he expended to create it, whereas Ashema had to shed her powers to enter into Franklin's world and afterwards spent whatever was remaining in allowing all the other Celestials to "feel" and "grow" from her consciousness experiencing the HRU.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by janus77
But Ashema is also said to be "dead" and just a consciousness, which should naturally have a bearing on her ability to defend the HRU from Tiamut.

Also, Franklin's level of control over the HRU could just be because it is a part of his own powers that he expended to create it, whereas Ashema had to shed her powers to enter into Franklin's world and afterwards spent whatever was remaining in allowing all the other Celestials to "feel" and "grow" from her consciousness experiencing the HRU.

Ashema was referred to as "dead" not once within those panels . Go back to some of the previous pages in this thread itself , and you'll understand that Celestials(as revealed by Tiamut) can't be truly killed . You need to be a monstrously powerful being(probably HOTU-level) to actually destroy a 616-Celestial .

She was merely preserving that universe within her own body , and those panels clearly tell us that her sway over that reality was weaker than Franklin's . If she was at least as powerful as he was , she wouldn't have any problem taking complete dominion over it w/ ease , however it was weaker than Franklin's , which is what allowed Tiamut to usurp it from her .

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Btw, who are the IW ? Infinity Watch ? And when did the Celestials job to them ?
Invisible Woman. That bullsh|t issue where she kills Exitar. Thanks to that "logic" ANY being that can reproduce her power can kill even the most powerful of Celestials. Super Skrull I'm looking at you!

That was the beginning of the end to their greatness.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
Invisible Woman. That bullsh|t issue where she kills Exitar. Thanks to that "logic" ANY being that can reproduce her power can kill even the most powerful of Celestials. Super Skrull I'm looking at you!

That was the beginning of the end to their greatness.

They were portrayed with dignity in Heroes Reborn . I am pretty sure that the PIS-brimming sh!t which Defalco wrote in that arc , was probably ignored as well in Heroes Reborn(if you consider the number of times Sue came face-to-face with Ashema , and didn/t even once try to use her powers against her) .

But thanks to Hickman , I guess that Hyperspace weakness will now haunt(as you yourself once said) the Celestials probably forever . Or for at least some time to come .

Galan007

Hyperspace-derived energy harming a Celestial is no different than Kryptonite harming Superman.

It's really not that big of a deal. /shrug

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Galan007
Hyperspace-derived energy harming a Celestial is no different than Kryptonite harming Superman.

It's really not that big of a deal. /shrug

There have been some instances in comics though , when Superman became immune to kryptonite .

Also Galan , are you CitizenBane on comicvine ? I ask because his debating style is somewhat similar to yours and he used this exact same reasoning that you just did for the Celestials' hyperspace-weakness .

Galan007

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
There have been some instances in comics though , when Superman became immune to kryptonite .

Also Galan , are you CitizenBane on comicvine ? I ask because his debating style is somewhat similar to yours and he used this exact same reasoning that you just did for the Celestials' hyperspace-weakness . Those are only under very special/unique circumstances. On average, Kryptonite is lethal to Supes.

Nope, not me. This is the only forum I participate in.

CortSether

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
There have been some instances in comics though , when Superman became immune to kryptonite .

Also Galan , are you CitizenBane on comicvine ? I ask because his debating style is somewhat similar to yours and he used this exact same reasoning that you just did for the Celestials' hyperspace-weakness .

If Galan was CitizenBane I'd have to start insulting him just for kicks.

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
But thanks to Hickman , I guess that Hyperspace weakness will now haunt(as you yourself once said) the Celestials probably forever . Or for at least some time to come .
Hence why I call Hickman a hack. Think about the stupidity of that "hyperspace weakness" for a bit. Elite Skyfathers or Thor's (most powerful?) Godblast did no lasting (or even meaningful) damage to a Celestial. Yet IW's force fields (and by definition ANY being that can duplicate her powers) or Reed's tech is capable of owning a Celestial?

Phuck the Fantastic Four and the garbage that comes out of that comic.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by CortSether
If Galan was CitizenBane I'd have to start insulting him just for kicks.

Why ? Did you have a bad experience with him on comicvine ?

Marvel_Mystic

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Why ? Did you have a bad experience with him on comicvine ?

i know him he's a douche

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
i know him he's a douche

I didn't have any bad experience with him . I do hate Vance_Astro though .

Marvel_Mystic

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I didn't have any bad experience with him . I do hate Vance_Astro though .

lol he's annoying too. I don't know how he was allowed to become a moderator because he's been banned before and he's always insulting people. I still go on the vine sometimes though but that's just for browsing because the forums have gone downhill.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
lol he's annoying too. I don't know how he was allowed to become a moderator because he's been banned before and he's always insulting people. I still go on the vine sometimes though but that's just for browsing because the forums have gone downhill.

I hate Vance_Astro because he banned me for notifying him of a DBZ thread .

And yeah I agree that the forums are going downhill , because from what I saw when last I lurked there , they are populated by retards who know nothing about comics , and often take stuff from KMC's Respect Threads to use in debates , and still demean and insult our boards .

Utrigita

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Utrigita
A Tiamut that was still imprisoned and weakened inside his prison IIRC.

And this was a Franklin Richards inexperienced in the usage of his powers . I am not saying that , that scan is a blanket proof of Franklin>Tiamut , just that it implies as such .

Doon

Originally posted by zopzop
Hence why I call Hickman a hack. Think about the stupidity of that "hyperspace weakness" for a bit. Elite Skyfathers or Thor's (most powerful?) Godblast did no lasting (or even meaningful) damage to a Celestial. Yet IW's force fields (and by definition ANY being that can duplicate her powers) or Reed's tech is capable of owning a Celestial?

Phuck the Fantastic Four and the garbage that comes out of that comic.

The "hyperspace weakness" you're referring to was, to my knowledge, initially conceived by Tom DeFalco, incidentally, the same guy responsible for The Mighty Thor arc in which the Odinson utterly failed to take down a Celestial with his godblast. That said, DeFalco deserves most of the blame in my opinion -- if anything, for being so inconsistent.

Hickman, on the other hand, was just respecting continuity -- even if it originated with the aforementioned DeFalco.

Colossus-Big C

That hyperspace weakness is bullshit, any skyfather level character and above with decent energy manipulation/ reality manipulation should be able to duplicate sues power . Especially beings up the powerscale like kubic and galactus.

That would mean anyone skyfather and above can own the celestials...

zopzop

Uriel005

Originally posted by zopzop
Skyfather? Try low herald. Super Skrull has all the FFs powers, so he can do it too. In fact, the Skrulls can make a legion of FF based Super Skrulls and wipe out the entire Celestial race!

eek!

skrulls can do a lot of things but common sense isn't one of them.

Utrigita

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
And this was a Franklin Richards inexperienced in the usage of his powers . I am not saying that , that scan is a blanket proof of Franklin>Tiamut , just that it implies as such .

True it implies that, but the scan is also what 10-20 years old, alot can happen. Also who is it that is talking?

Galan007

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
That hyperspace weakness is bullshit, any skyfather level character and above with decent energy manipulation/ reality manipulation should be able to duplicate sues power . Especially beings up the powerscale like kubic and galactus.

That would mean anyone skyfather and above can own the celestials... Show me some instances of characters (aside from Sue and Hyperstorm) tapping/manifesting energy directly from Hyperspace. You act like it's an easy feat for heralds/skyfathers to duplicate--so let's see some proof. Conversely, it was made quite clear that the ability to use Hyperspace energies in the manner Sue did was extremely unique/unusual--exclusive to her, really.

Originally posted by zopzop
Skyfather? Try low herald. Super Skrull has all the FFs powers, so he can do it too. In fact, the Skrulls can make a legion of FF based Super Skrulls and wipe out the entire Celestial race! I doubt very much that Super-Skrull leeches his power directly from Hyperspace.

Either way, I'd like to remind the low-ballers of this:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12627459_ff1.jpg
"You AND YOU ALONE can reach the proper harmonic chord to rupture this alien shell!"

Per Nathaniel (the dude who has spent his life traveling throughout the multiverse/time), Sue was the only being capable of using her Hyperspace energies in such a way... Smh at the notion that heralds/skyfathers can whimsically duplicate this feat.

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
Show me some instances of characters (aside from Sue and Hyperstorm) tapping/manifesting energy directly from Hyperspace. You act like it's an easy feat for heralds/skyfathers to duplicate--so let's see some proof. Conversely, it was made quite clear that the ability to use Hyperspace energies in the manner Sue did was extremely unique/unusual--exclusive to her, really.
Super Skrull. He has all the FFs powers.

He does. That's what his invisible force fields are. Hyperspace constructs like the IWs.

You realize that Nathaniel was (in all probability) talking about of all people PRESENT, only Sue had the power to do what she did when that scene took place. How many other hyperspace wielders were there?

Like I said don't try to save Defalco and Hickman from their own stupidity, it won't work.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Utrigita
True it implies that, but the scan is also what 10-20 years old, alot can happen. Also who is it that is talking?

I don't really remember , but I think its either the narrative or Doom . If it turns out that it was Doom , then that scan can be dismissed as hyperbole , as that guy was confident that Franklin's power is greater than that of Celestials themselves .

zopzop

Originally posted by Utrigita
A Tiamut that was still imprisoned and weakened inside his prison IIRC.
+1000000000

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
He does. That's what his invisible force fields are. Hyperspace constructs like the IWs.So it was stated on panel that Skrull's IW powers also leech energy directly from Hyperspace? Scans please.

Originally posted by zopzop
You realize that Nathaniel was (in all probability) talking about of all people PRESENT, only Sue had the power to do what she did when that scene took place. How many other hyperspace wielders were there? There were Watchers present, dude. Hundreds of them--possibly thousands. They were so powerful that Exitar himself had spent "SEVERAL THOUSAND" years gathering energy (ie. amping himself), just so he could become powerful enough to destroy them. Hell, the Watcher called 'The One' was so powerful that his mere presence within reality was destroying it... Yet none of them were capable of duplicating Sue's feat.

If approximating Hyperspace energy, and using said energy to create the proper harmonic chord required to destroy a Celestial, was as easy as you believe, surely the Watchers would have been able to do so. Tbh, your low-balling astounds.

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
So it was stated on panel that Skrull's IW powers also leech energy directly from Hyperspace? Scans please.
Stop being an annoying douche. His invisible FF constructs are just that, hyperspace constructs. WTF else would they be? How about this, do YOU have proof they aren't?

Watchers, by the VERY NATURE OF THEIR OATH, watch and do not interfere. Hell they didn't even interfere when Maelstroms' black hole was destroying the universe or when Thanos had the IG.

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
Stop being an annoying douche. His invisible FF constructs are just that, hyperspace constructs. WTF else would they be? How about this, do YOU have proof they aren't? I don't need to prove a negative. You're so sure Skrull leeches energy from Hyperspace? Prove it. Imo, it's no different than Amazo--he can copy Flash's speed, but that doesn't mean he taps into the speed force every time he runs. He can duplicate Firestorm's powers, but that doesn't mean he taps into the Matrix when he transmutes shit. Etc.

Your inability to prove a point doesn't warrant childish name-calling, though.

Originally posted by zopzop
Watchers, by the VERY NATURE OF THEIR OATH, watch and do not interfere. Hell they didn't even interfere when Maelstroms' black hole was destroying the universe or when Thanos had the IG. Why are you bringing up other stories? Watchers have gotten involved in the affairs of others several times in the past--and their battle with the Celestials was certainly no exception. It was stated that this particular battle between the Watchers and Celestials was a "cosmic war". It was stated that the army of Watchers were "facing off" against the Celestials. The F4 stated that they stumbled into a "major conflict". In that very same issue, Uatu also killed Aron. Clearly they had every intention of battling the Celestials (and had been doing so), until a drastically amped Exitar arrived and KO'd The One (the most powerful Watcher.) After that happened, there was really nothing the Watchers could do...

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't need to prove a negative. You're so sure Skrull leeches energy from Hyperspace? Prove it. Imo, it's no different than Amazo--he can copy Flash's speed, but that doesn't mean he taps into the speed force every time he runs. He can duplicate Firestorm's powers, but that doesn't mean he taps into the Matrix when he transmutes shit. Etc.

Your inability to prove a point doesn't warrant childish name-calling, though.
Genius, the explanation for where IW's power comes from happened decades after her initial appearance. Defalco just pulled that hyperspace crap out of his ass. In his first appearance the Super Skrull was said to be able to duplicate the FFs powers. Back then there was no hyperspace origin crap for her power. Unless there's been a retcon, Super Skrull is still duplicating her invisible constructs which are now said to be hyperspace constructs.

Amazo has nothing to do with this since he wasn't SPECIFICALLY engineered to duplicate the FFs powers.

Bro, IW herself admitted that Uatu used her in their fight vs the Celestials. The Watchers took no direct action, as always, and simply manipulated IW into doing their dirty work for them. If they wanted to, I'm sure they could have duplicated her invisible force fields and owned the Celestials.

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
Genius, the explanation for where IW's power comes from happened decades after her initial appearance. Defalco just pulled that hyperspace crap out of his ass. In his first appearance the Super Skrull was said to be able to duplicate the FFs powers. Back then there was no hyperspace origin crap for her power. Unless there's been a retcon, Super Skrull is still duplicating her invisible constructs which are now said to be hyperspace constructs. I'm a genius? Thank you for your kind words. smile

Again, show me proof that Skrull leeches his powers directly from Hyperspace, and not from some other source.

Originally posted by zopzop
Amazo has nothing to do with this since he wasn't SPECIFICALLY engineered to duplicate the FFs powers. Amazo was created by Ivo SPECIFICALLY to duplicate the powers of DC's heroes--some of whom (ie. Flash and Firestorm) gain their powers from esoteric/other-dimensional sources--sources of which Amazo does not tap into when he approximates their powers (this has been stated on panel.) Thus the analogy I used is perfectly fitting.

Originally posted by zopzop
Bro, IW herself admitted that Uatu used her in their fight vs the Celestials. The Watchers took no direct action, as always, and simply manipulated IW into doing their dirty work for them. If they wanted to, I'm sure they could have duplicated her invisible force fields and owned the Celestials. You've just proven my point. The Watchers used IW because they knew that only SHE had the ability to defeat Exitar--a task none of them were capable of, despite their enormous power. Easy-peasy. smile

I don't like or agree with the Hyperspace weakness, but stating that Heralds/Skyfathers can duplicate IW's feat is laughable, imo.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Galan007
You're so sure Skrull leeches energy from Hyperspace? Prove it. Imo, it's no different than Amazo--he can copy Flash's speed, but that doesn't mean he taps into the speed force every time he runs. He can duplicate Firestorm's powers, but that doesn't mean he taps into the Matrix when he transmutes shit. Etc.

thumb up

This .

Just because Superskrull can duplicate the FF's powers , doesn't necessarily mean that they are of the exact same fundamental nature as the original are .

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm a genius? Thank you for your kind words. smile

Again, show me proof that Skrull leeches his powers directly from Hyperspace, and not from some other source.

Amazo was created by Ivo SPECIFICALLY to duplicate the powers of DC's heroes--some of whom (ie. Flash and Firestorm) gain their powers from esoteric/other-dimensional sources--sources of which Amazo does not tap into when he approximates their powers (this has been stated on panel.) Thus the analogy I used is perfectly fitting.
Amazo != Super Skrull or the Skrull tech and research that went into creating Super Skrull. Super Skrull was designed to duplicate the powers of FOUR SPECIFIC HEROES. During that time, there was no mention of where the FFs powers come from aside from being the byproduct of Cosmic Rays. That's it. Super Skrull duplicated their powers (by being bombarded by Cosmic Rays from a Skrull satellite). DECADES later some moron went into more detail as to the nature of IW's ff's. Unless something changed with Super Skrull, he's still doing what he's doing, duplicating their powers.

Jesus Christ you are slow. They manipulated her because they DO NOT ACT directly AT ALL. They didn't act when Maelstrom was going to destroy the universe and their race. They didn't act when Thanos got the IG (Warlock even lamented this). They do not act directly because of their oath.

If they wanted to, they could have killed the Celestials by exploiting their hyperspace weakness.

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
thumb up

This .

Just because Superskrull can duplicate the FF's powers , doesn't necessarily mean that they are of the exact same fundamental nature as the original are .
You realize that he was powered by Cosmic Rays sent from a Skrull satellite. Duplicating how the FF got their powers, from............wait for it.......................Cosmic rays.

The hyperspace crap came DECADES later. So unless something changed with Super Skrull he's duplicating her hyperspace powers.

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
Amazo != Super Skrull or the Skrull tech and research that went into creating Super Skrull. Super Skrull was designed to duplicate the powers of FOUR SPECIFIC HEROES. During that time, there was no mention of where the FFs powers come from aside from being the byproduct of Cosmic Rays. That's it. Super Skrull duplicated their powers (by being bombarded by Cosmic Rays from a Skrull satellite). DECADES later some moron went into more detail as to the nature of IW's ff's. Unless something changed with Super Skrull, he's still doing what he's doing, duplicating their powers. So no proof then? Good to know. thumb up

The Amazo analogy fits so perfectly that it's ridiculous.

Originally posted by zopzop
Jesus Christ you are slow. They manipulated her because they DO NOT ACT directly AT ALL. They didn't act when Maelstrom was going to destroy the universe and their race. They didn't act when Thanos got the IG (Warlock even lamented this). They do not act directly because of their oath.

If they wanted to, they could have killed the Celestials by exploiting their hyperspace weakness. More name-calling, eh? How immature.

The Watcher's WERE acting. You must have ignored/missed the multiple statements from the issue I posted above. You're also assuming the Watchers could have duplicated the Hyperspace weakness, despite Nathaniel flat-out stating that Sue was the ONLY being capable of preforming this feat.

Good lord, you're falling apart.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't like or agree with the Hyperspace weakness, but stating that Heralds/Skyfathers can duplicate IW's feat is laughable, imo.

That too is true . Franklin has a hereditary connection with IW , along with his vast reality manipulation powers , he could just have simply duplicated his mother's ability right down to the most specific detail , and then amped this ability to a much larger scale . This way he could have finished of the Mad Celestials in less than 5 panels .
The fact that he didn't even attempt to try such a strategy , clearly indicates that even universal gods can't duplicate her powers to the most fundamental level(i.e that specific hyperspatial harmonic chord which breaks Celestial armor) .

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
You realize that he was powered by Cosmic Rays sent from a Skrull satellite. Duplicating how the FF got their powers, from............wait for it.......................Cosmic rays.

The hyperspace crap came DECADES later. So unless something changed with Super Skrull he's duplicating her hyperspace powers.

On what basis do you assume that the hyperspace explanation should automatically extend to SS as well ? The hyperspace explanation , as you yourself have said , came decades later , however not once was this explanation extended to Superskrull's abilities . Unless and until you can provide a scan or issue which states otherwise . Can you ?

Burden of proof is on you .

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
So no proof then? Good to know. thumb up

The Amazo analogy fits so perfectly that it's ridiculous.
I provided the proof. Nothing changed with the Super Skrull or his powers. Decades later some writer merely expands on the nature of IW's FFs and you act like something earth shaking happened. The Super Skrull duplicated the FFs powers right down to how they acquired them in the first place. If her FFs are hyperspace constructs, then his are too.

Uatu vs Aaron is meaningless since it was Aaron that broke his oath and Uatu responded and took him out.

How exactly were the other Watchers engaging the Celestials? Because we've seen that self defense doesn't count as breaking the Watchers oath of non interference.

Uatu acted indirectly by manipulating the FF to do their dirty work. It was stated on panel.

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
On what basis do you assume that the hyperspace explanation should automatically extend to SS as well ? The hyperspace explanation , as you yourself have said , came decades later , however not once was this explanation extended to Superskrull's abilities . Unless and until you can provide a scan or issue which states otherwise . Can you ?

Burden of proof is on you .
When the fxxk would this come up in a comic involving Super Skrull? He duplicated their powers right down to how they acquired them. The only thing Defalco did was expand on the nature of her invisible force fields. That's it.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
When the fxxk would this come up in a comic involving Super Skrull? He duplicated their powers right down to how they acquired them. The only thing Defalco did was expand on the nature of her invisible force fields. That's it.

So no proof ? Thought so .

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
I provided the proof. No, you merely provided your personal opinion.

Again, I liken the Skrull to Amazo in this regard.

Originally posted by zopzop
Uatu vs Aaron is meaningless since it was Aaron that broke his oath and Uatu responded and took him out.

How exactly were the other Watchers engaging the Celestials? Because we've seen that self defense doesn't count as breaking the Watchers oath of non interference. The issue began at the end of the battle--after Exitar KO'd The One. Thus we didn't get to see hardly any of the action. However, these comments were made shortly after the F4 arrived:

*It was stated that this particular battle between the Watchers and Celestials was a "cosmic war". It was stated that the army of Watchers were "facing off" against the Celestials. The F4 stated that they stumbled into a "major conflict".*

Clearly the Celestials/Watchers had been engaged in some sort of battle--hence the MULTIPLE comments.

Originally posted by zopzop
Uatu acted indirectly by manipulating the FF to do their dirty work. It was stated on panel. Uatu manipulated IW because he knew that despite their vast cosmic power, the Watchers were no match for this amped Exitar. He had just KO'd the most powerful member of the Watcher race, after all. Sue was the ONLY being capable of manipulating Hyperspace energies in such a specific manner (as Nathaniel explicitly stated.)

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
So no proof ? Thought so . Originally posted by zopzop
When the fxxk would this come up in a comic involving Super Skrull?

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
So no proof ? Thought so .
Originally posted by zopzop
When the fxxk would this come up in a comic involving Super Skrull? He duplicated their powers right down to how they acquired them. The only thing Defalco did was expand on the nature of her invisible force fields. That's it.

Since you have failed to provide definitive proof that the Skrull's powers derive from hyperspace as well , therefore in this case(based upon the Amazo analogy) , absence of evidence equates to evidence of absence .

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
No, your merely provided your personal opinion.

The issue began at the end of the battle--after Exitar KO'd The One. Thus we didn't get to see hardly any of the action. However, these comments were made shortly after the F4 arrived:

*It was stated that this particular battle between the Watchers and Celestials was a "cosmic war". It was stated that the army of Watchers were "facing off" against the Celestials. The F4 stated that they stumbled into a "major conflict".*

Clearly the Celestials/Watchers had been engaged in some sort of battle--hence the MULTIPLE comments.

Uatu manipulated IW because he knew that despite their vast cosmic power, the Watchers were no match for this amped Exitar. He had just KO'd the most powerful member of the Watcher race, after all. Sue was the ONLY being capable of manipulating Hyperspace energies in such a specific manner (as Nathaniel explicitly stated.)
I just TOLD you how the Super Skrull got his powers. He duplicated the FF right down to how they acquired their powers in the first place. Nothing changed.

So there's no on panel proof that they fought directly just statements? We've seen Watchers are allowed to defend themselves from attack without directly initiating hostilities or attacking.

Nathaniel was talking about of those present during that encounter (Lyja, Human Torch, etc..), the IW was the only one with hyperspace abilities.

Uatu and the Watchers have vast psionic and energy manipulating abilities but they can't mimic the IWs abilities? You are as much a hack as Hickman and Defalco are.

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Since you have failed to provide definitive proof that the Skrull's powers derive from hyperspace as well , therefore in this case(based upon the Amazo analogy) , absence of evidence equates to evidence of absence .

The Super Skrulls powers DO NOT DERIVE FROM HYPERSPACE. Neither do the IWs. They are BOTH derived from exposure to COSMIC RAYS. The nature of her Force Fields was later explained to be hyperspace related. That's it. Fail more.

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
I just TOLD you how the Super Skrull got his powers. He duplicated the FF right down to how they acquired their powers in the first place. Nothing changed. I know how he was created--just like I know how Amazo was created. You've no proof here, just opinion.

Originally posted by zopzop
So there's no on panel proof that they fought directly just statements? AGAIN:
The issue began at the END of the battle--after Exitar KO'd The One. Thus we didn't get to see hardly any of the action. However, these comments were made shortly after the F4 arrived:

*It was stated that this particular battle between the Watchers and Celestials was a "cosmic war". It was stated that the army of Watchers were "facing off" against the Celestials. The F4 stated that they stumbled into a "major conflict".*

Clearly the Celestials/Watchers had been engaged in some sort of battle--hence the MULTIPLE comments... Are you seriously trying to say that they weren't fighting one another despite it being explicitly stated (multiple times) that a WAR between them had been taking place? Please tell me you're not sinking to such laughable lows just because you want to be right... Are you?

Originally posted by zopzop
Nathaniel was talking about of those present during that encounter (Lyja, Human Torch, etc..), the IW was the only one with hyperspace abilities.

Uatu and the Watchers have vast psionic and energy manipulating abilities but they can't mimic the IWs abilities? You are as much a hack as Hickman and Defalco are. Considering thousands of Watchers were also present, they, too, would have been included in Nathaniel's blanket comment. Crikey, you're acting like Nathaniel put a cap on that statement--he didn't. You are just making that up.

Frankly, you don't have a leg to stand on... These incessant childish remarks you've been making only solidify that.

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
I know how he was created--just like I know how Amazo was created. You've no proof here, just opinion.

AGAIN:
The issue began at the END of the battle--after Exitar KO'd The One. Thus we didn't get to see hardly any of the action. However, these comments were made shortly after the F4 arrived:

*It was stated that this particular battle between the Watchers and Celestials was a "cosmic war". It was stated that the army of Watchers were "facing off" against the Celestials. The F4 stated that they stumbled into a "major conflict".*

Clearly the Celestials/Watchers had been engaged in some sort of battle--hence the MULTIPLE comments... Are you seriously trying to say that they weren't fighting one another despite it being explicitly stated that a WAR between them had been taking place? Please tell me you're not sinking to such laughable lows just because you want to be right... Are you?

Considering thousands of Watchers were also present, they would have been included in Nathaniel's blanket comment. Crikey, you're acting like Nathaniel put a cap on that statement--he didn't. You are just making that up.

Frankly, you don't have a leg to stand on... These incessant childish remarks you've been making only solidify that.
I just TOLD you that both the IW and Super Skrull (and the rest of the FF) acquired their power from exposure to Cosmic Rays. That didn't change. The only thing Defalco did was expand on the nature of her IFFs.

I also told you, the Watchers are allowed to defend themselves if attacked without breaking their oath. The Celestials were the ones that initiated the hostilities by killing The One.

Dude Nathanial was talking to Sue and crew when he made that statement. You even have the scan. roll eyes (sarcastic)

The "childish" remarks are a result of your childish comments. I just stooped to your level.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
The Super Skrulls powers DO NOT DERIVE FROM HYPERSPACE. Neither do the IWs. They are BOTH derived from exposure to COSMIC RAYS. The nature of her Force Fields was later explained to be hyperspace related. That's it. Fail more.

Where exactly was it mentioned that the Super-Skrull(K'lrt) was exposed to cosmic rays ?
I don't recall it being mentioned ANYWHERE in his original appearance(F4#18 v1):
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/103/fantasticfour1804.th.jpg

However , if a different incarnation of SS is mentioned as having been exposed to the exact same IDENTICAL cosmic rays , which the original FF were , then I'll retract this point .

Hell , here he mentions that his flames are actually made of anti-matter :
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6928/fantasticfour1805.th.jpg

Last time I checked , Johnny's flames weren't made of anti-matter .

So again , I ask you , on what basis do you presume that his force-fields are derived from hyperspatial energy(let alone hyperspatial energy of the exact same harmonic chord which can harm Celestials) ?

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Where exactly was it mentioned that the Super-Skrull(K'lrt) was exposed to cosmic rays ?
I don't recall it being mentioned ANYWHERE in his original appearance(F4#18 v1):
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/103/fantasticfour1804.th.jpg

However , if a different incarnation of SS is mentioned as having been exposed to the exact same IDENTICAL cosmic rays , which the original FF were , then I'll retract this point .

Hell , here he mentions that his flames are actually made of anti-matter :
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6928/fantasticfour1805.th.jpg

Last time I checked , Johnny's flames weren't made of anti-matter .

So again , I ask you , on what basis do you presume that his force-fields are derived from hyperspatial energy(let alone hyperspatial energy of the exact same harmonic chord which can harm Celestials) ?
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/8798/superskrullcosmicrays04.th.jpg

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
I just TOLD you that both the IW and Super Skrull (and the rest of the FF) acquired their power from exposure to Cosmic Rays. That didn't change. The only thing Defalco did was expand on the nature of her IFFs. So still no proof? Cool.

Originally posted by zopzop
I also told you, the Watchers are allowed to defend themselves if attacked without breaking their oath. The Celestials were the ones that initiated the hostilities by killing The One. They were engaged in WAR--this was stated multiple times. It is a laughable opinion to think that the Watchers weren't fighting back, in lieu of these comments... But hey, if you want to be right so badly that you're willing to overlook on panel evidence, then go for it... thumb up

Originally posted by zopzop
Dude Nathanial was talking to Sue and crew when he made that statement. You even have the scan. It was a blanket comment, dude:
"You AND YOU ALONE can reach the proper harmonic chord to rupture this alien shell!"

No caps were placed on that comment--you're making that part up. Sue was the ONLY being capable of preforming this feat.

Originally posted by zopzop
The "childish" remarks are a result of your childish comments. I just stooped to your level. At no point in time have I insulted you. I have been exceedingly civil. I only ask the same in return. smile

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/8798/superskrullcosmicrays04.th.jpg

OK . That scan does mention that his body is "equipped with power-receptors which are able to gather the same cosmic energy which mutated the F4 , and mimic the function of their powers"

Note the word "function" instead of "nature" . This seems to break your claim that the nature of his powers is also identical to the original's(when it isn't and my anti-matter scan is proof of this) .

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
So still no proof? Cool.

They were engaged in WAR--this was stated multiple times. It is a laughable opinion to think that the Watchers weren't fighting back, in lieu of these comments... But hey, if you want to be right so badly that you're willing to overlook on panel evidence, then go for it... thumb up

It was a blanket comment, dude:
"You AND YOU ALONE can reach the proper harmonic chord to rupture this alien shell!"

No caps were placed on that comment--you're making that part up. Sue was the ONLY being capable of preforming this feat.

At no point in time have I insulted you. I have been exceedingly civil. I only ask the same in return. smile

Proof is in the post above yours.

Yes a war initiated by the Celestials. Watchers are allowed to defend themselves if attacked without breaking their oath. So that "War" comment is meaningless since the Watchers could have been doing what they have been doing all along. If the threat of Maelstrom's universal black hole didn't force them to act against him and the threat of Thanos with the IG (both far more powerful than the Celestials) didn't force their hand, what makes you think they were actively attacking the Celestials?

It was NOT a blanket comment, the ONLY people present when he was speaking those words were the FF. roll eyes (sarcastic)

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
OK . That scan does mention that his body is "equipped with power-receptors which are able to gather the same cosmic energy which mutated the F4 , and mimic the function of their powers"

Note the word "function" instead of "nature" . This seems to break your claim that the nature of his powers is also identical to the original's(when it isn't and my anti-matter scan is proof of this) .
OMF Christ. Dude the FF's powers are derived from cosmic rays. Do you understand this? The Super Skrulls powers are derived from cosmic rays. The NATURE of the IW's force field was LATER (MUCH MUCH LATER) explained to be hyperspace related.

This does not change how her power or the FFs power or the Super Skrulls power were derived. Understand? It's right there in black and white.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Galan007
So still no proof? Cool.

Actually there is proof to the contrary . I just showed a scan in which the Skrull's flame is shown to be made of anti-matter(unlike Johnny's) . So its safe to say that while the function of his powers is similar to that of the FF's , the nature is not .

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Actually there is proof to the contrary . I just showed a scan in which the Skrull's flame is shown to be made of anti-matter(unlike Johnny's) . So its safe to say that while the function of his powers is similar to that of the FF's , the nature is not .
You showed nothing. What is the context of that scan? What issue did it take place in?

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
OMF Christ. Dude the FF's powers are derived from cosmic rays. Do you understand this? The Super Skrulls powers are derived from cosmic rays. The NATURE of the IW's force field was LATER (MUCH MUCH LATER) explained to be hyperspace related.

This does not change how her power or the FFs power or the Super Skrulls power were derived. Understand? It's right there in black and white.

And its right there in black and white as well , that the power-receptors only enable him to mimic the "function" of their powers . The word "nature" isn't mentioned , and the anti-matter flame scan which I provided proves that the nature of his powers is in all likelihood dissimilar to that of the FF's .

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
You showed nothing. What is the context of that scan? What issue did it take place in?

I did show something . I have already provided the name of the title in the post in which that scan is originally posted . That was a demonstration of his powers . Here's the whole scene(about his flame powers) :

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/103/fantasticfour1804.th.jpghttp://img836.imageshack.us/img836/6928/fantasticfour1805.th.jpg

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
And its right there in black and white as well , that the power-receptors only enable him to mimic the "function" of their powers . The word "nature" isn't mentioned , and the anti-matter flame scan which I provided proves that the nature of his powers is in all likelihood dissimilar to that of the FF's .
That is one panel. What is the context? What issue did it take place in?

The fact is IW's powers, Reed's powers, Johnny's powers, Ben's powers, SSs' powers, are derived from cosmic rays. Her powers are NOT derived from hyperspace. It was explained that her force fields are hyperspace constructs and that's it.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
That is one panel. What is the context? What issue did it take place in?

The fact is IW's powers, Reed's powers, Johnny's powers, Ben's powers, SSs' powers, are derived from cosmic rays. Her powers are NOT derived from hyperspace. It was explained that her force fields are hyperspace constructs and that's it.

Already answered :
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I did show something . I have already provided the name of the title in the post in which that scan is originally posted . That was a demonstration of his powers . Here's the whole scene(about his flame powers) :

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/103/fantasticfour1804.th.jpghttp://img836.imageshack.us/img836/6928/fantasticfour1805.th.jpg

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I did show something . I have already provided the name of the title in the post in which that scan is originally posted . That was a demonstration of his powers . Here's the whole scene(about his flame powers) :

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/103/fantasticfour1804.th.jpghttp://img836.imageshack.us/img836/6928/fantasticfour1805.th.jpg

The first page betrays you.

"We have given him all the powers of the FF and even more".
and last but not least
"I have been given one power not even the Human Torch has"
guess what it was?
laughing

See how you fail?

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
The first page betrays you.

"We have given him all the powers of the FF and even more".
and last but not least
"I have been given one power not even the Human Torch has"
guess what it was?
laughing

See how you fail?

Explain to me how do I fail . The scan you yourself provided very specifically mentions that he mimics the "function" of their power .
It appears that I am not the one who's failing here .

As far as the the flame demo of the SS goes , all it proves is that the SS can destroy anything(unlike Johnny) , due to the fact that his flames are made of anti-matter .

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Explain to me how do I fail . The scan you yourself provided very specifically mentions that he mimics the "function" of their power .
It appears that I am not the one who's failing here .

As far as the the flame demo of the SS goes , all it proves is that the SS can destroy anything(unlike Johnny) , due to the fact that his flames are made of anti-matter .
OMG, you didn't even read the scans did you?

This is rich! laughing

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
OMG, you didn't even read the scans did you?

This is rich! laughing

I did read my scans AS WELL as yours .

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
Yes a war initiated by the Celestials. Watchers are allowed to defend themselves if attacked without breaking their oath. So that "War" comment is meaningless since the Watchers could have been doing what they have been doing all along. *It was stated that this particular battle between the Watchers and Celestials was a "cosmic war". It was stated that the army of Watchers were "facing off" against the Celestials. The F4 stated that they stumbled into a "major conflict".*

"Cosmic war"
"Facing off"
"Major conflict"

Again, we only saw the end of the conflict--however, The One (at a minimum) had been fighting the Celestials on some level. Clearly. After he was killed, the Watchers no longer tried to defend themselves. Your blatant disregard for what we were told on panel astounds.

Originally posted by zopzop
It was NOT a blanket comment, the ONLY people present when he was speaking those words were the FF. roll eyes (sarcastic)

The Watchers were on the same phucking battlefield as Sue/Nathaniel. AGAIN: That comment did NOT have a cap--you are making that part up. Sue was the only being capable of preforming that feat.

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I did read my scans AS WELL as yours .
Obviously you didn't or you would have answered your own question.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
Obviously you didn't or you would have answered your own question.

I did . So far you haven't provided proof that the nature of their powers is identical .

As I said before , in this case , absence of evidence = evidence of absence .

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
*It was stated that this particular battle between the Watchers and Celestials was a "cosmic war". It was stated that the army of Watchers were "facing off" against the Celestials. The F4 stated that they stumbled into a "major conflict".*

"Cosmic war"
"Facing off"
"Major conflict"

Again, we only saw the end of the conflict--however, The One (at a minimum) had been fighting the Celestials on some level. Clearly. After he was killed, the Watchers no longer tried to defend themselves. Your blatant disregard for what we were told on panel astounds.

The Watchers were on the same phucking battlefield as Sue/Nathaniel. AGAIN: That comment did NOT have a cap--you are making that part up. Sue was the only being capable of preforming that feat.
The Watchers, WHO HAVE NEVER INTERFERED even when the universe was in danger of destruction (and their own race, see the Cosmos In Collision arc in Quasar), now all of a sudden were in a major war with the Celestials? Like I said, since we saw NOTHING on panel, the Watchers are allowed to defend themselves without breaking their non interference oath. So yeah.

PROOF they didn't want to interfere even if they would be destroyed :
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/35192/1335555-f440006gg6.jpg

Genius, the ONLY people present when Nathanial made that claim were the FF, he wasn't speaking of the Watchers :
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/f42.jpg
You're not even trying anymore are you?

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I did . So far you haven't provided proof that the nature of their powers is identical .

As I said before , in this case , absence of evidence = evidence of absence .
TGK stop playing stupid. It's annoying.

You produced a scan showing SS deploying antimatter fire and said it was proof that his fire wasn't identical to the Human Torches.

Then I asked you for the entire scan in context, not just a panel.

Then the scan showed that he not only had all the FFs powers, but more. He STATED POINT BLANK ON PANEL, that he not only could burn hotter and longer than the Torch, he also had a power the Torch didn't possses an antimatter fire blast.

Understand?

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
Like I said, since we saw NOTHING on panel, the Watchers are allowed to defend themselves without breaking their non interference oath. So yeah. "Cosmic war"
"Facing off"
"Major conflict"

Again, we only saw the end of the conflict--however, The One (at a minimum) had been fighting the Celestials on some level. Clearly. After he was killed, the Watchers no longer tried to defend themselves. Your blatant disregard for what we were told on panel astounds.

Originally posted by zopzop
PROOF they didn't want to interfere even if they would be destroyed :
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/35192/1335555-f440006gg6.jpg This was AFTER The One had been trounced by Exitar--which means it was at the END of their battle.

Seriously, what isn't computing here?

Originally posted by zopzop
Genius, the ONLY people present when Nathanial made that claim were the FF, he wasn't speaking of the Watchers :
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/f42.jpg
You're not even trying anymore are you? laughing out loud

Again: The Watchers were on the same phucking battlefield as Sue/Nathaniel when that blanket comment was made.

...Genius.

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
"Cosmic war"
"Facing off"
"Major conflict"

Again, we only saw the end of the conflict--however, The One (at a minimum) had been fighting the Celestials on some level. Clearly. After he was killed, the Watchers no longer tried to defend themselves. Your blatant disregard for what we were told on panel astounds.

This was AFTER The One had been trounced by Exitar--which means it was at the END of their battle.

Seriously, what isn't computing here?

laughing out loud

Again: The Watchers were on the same phucking battlefield as Sue/Nathaniel when that blanket comment was made.

...Genius.
Didn't you READ the fxxking thing? Huntara or whatever her name was asked why they weren't fighting back, the Human Torch said it wasnt' their way.

They weren't ACTIVELY attacking the Celestials and stood by their vow. Uatu indirectly manipulated the FF to do their bidding without breaking his Oath.

You can't avoid what's stated directly on panel.

Nathaniel was directly addressing the FF with those comments. I'd say this type of trolling was beneath you but you've sunk to new lows in this thread.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
TGK stop playing stupid. It's annoying.

You produced a scan showing SS deploying antimatter fire and said it was proof that his fire wasn't identical to the Human Torches.

Then I asked you for the entire scan in context, not just a panel.

Then the scan showed that he not only had all the FFs powers, but more. He STATED POINT BLANK ON PANEL, that he not only could burn hotter and longer than the Torch, he also had a power the Torch didn't possses an antimatter fire blast.

Understand?

He stated that he could destroy "anything" , BECAUSE his fireball was composed of anti-matter . Being able to destroy anything(by virtue of having anti-matter flames) is the power he speaks of .
Btw , anti-matter fire is virtually identical to normal fire , with the only exception being that in contact with normal matter(like the mountain he destroyed in those panels) , it would produce an exponentially greater energy output . That is what makes it exceptional , and an improvised version of Johnny's powers .

Still waiting for your proof that the nature of his powers are identical to the FF's .

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
Didn't you READ the fxxking thing? Huntara or whatever her name was asked why they weren't fighting back, the Human Torch said it wasnt' their way.

They weren't ACTIVELY attacking the Celestials and stood by their vow. Uatu indirectly manipulated the FF to do their bidding without breaking his Oath.

You can't avoid what's stated directly on panel. The other Watchers weren't actively fighting by the time the F4 entered the fray (which was at the end of the battle)--The One (at a minimum), however, had been (confirmed by multiple statements.)

Seriously, what isn't computing here?

Originally posted by zopzop
Nathaniel was directly addressing the FF with those comments. I'd say this type of trolling was beneath you but you've sunk to new lows in this thread. It was a blanket comment. Nothing alluded to it being directed exclusively toward the F4. Again, you're making that part up--which IS trolling.

Frankly your incessant rude comments toward myself and TGK make me realize how desperate you are here.

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
He stated that he could destroy "anything" , BECAUSE his fireball was composed of anti-matter . Being able to destroy anything(by virtue of having anti-matter flames) is the power he speaks .
Btw , anti-matter fire is virtually identical to normal fire , with the only exception being that in contact with normal matter(like the mountain he destroyed in those panels) , it would produce an exponentially greater energy output . That is what makes it exceptional , and an improvised version of Johnny's powers .

Still waiting for your proof that the nature of his powers are identical to the FF's .
OMG, you've lost it. He said he could duplicate the Human Torch's powers AND he had one ability even the Human Torch didn't, it was the antimatter fireball.

It's right there on panel.
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/103/fantasticfour1804.th.jpg http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/6928/fantasticfour1805.th.jpg

I know it's hard but don't just look at the pretty pictures, READ the funny lettering called "words" that are there too. Puts the whole thing in context.

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
The other Watchers weren't actively fighting by the time the F4 entered the fray (which was at the end of the battle)--The One (at a minimum), however, had been (confirmed by multiple statements.)

Seriously, what isn't computing here?

It was a blanket comment. Nothing alluded to it being directly exclusively toward the F4. Again, you're making that part up--which IS trolling.

Frankly your incessant rude comments toward myself and TGK make me realize how desperate you are here.
It was shown on panel that the Watchers weren't fighting back. The FF even called them on it.

Nathanial was CLEARLY talking to the FF since the Watchers weren't actively fighting the Celestials.

The "rude comments" are because I'm being trolled by two posters ignoring what's shown clear as day on panel.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
OMG, you've lost it. He said he could duplicate the Human Torch's powers AND he had one ability even the Human Torch didn't, it was the antimatter fireball.

It's right there on panel.
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/103/fantasticfour1804.th.jpg http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/6928/fantasticfour1805.th.jpg

I know it's hard but don't just look at the pretty pictures, READ the funny lettering called "words" that are there too. Puts the whole thing in context.

And the power he speaks of is the ability to "destroy anything" , by virtue of having anti-matter fire .

I have already explained how anti-matter fire compares to regular fire , and it appears that this explanation flew straight over your head .

Also , when are you going to provide proof that the nature of his powers are identical to the FF's ?

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
And the power he speaks of is the ability to "destroy anything" , by virtue of having anti-matter fire .

I have already explained how anti-matter fire compares to regular fire , and it appears that this explanation flew straight over your head .

Also , when are you going to provide proof that the nature of his powers are identical to the FF's ?
roll eyes (sarcastic)

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Your own scans made a fool of you and you're just trolling at this point.

The antimatter fireball was the ONE new power the the SS had that the Human Torch didn't. That wasn't a power he was duplicating, it was a new ability the Skrull tech gave him!

Both the SS and the FF derived their powers from Cosmic Rays.

No they didn't .

The special new power that he had , was being able to "destroy anything" by virtue of having anti-matter fire .

That still doesn't prove that the nature of their powers are identical , merely that the function is(as your own scan flat out tells us) .

zopzop

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
No they didn't .

The special new power that he had , was being able to "destroy anything" by virtue of having anti-matter fire .

That still doesn't prove that the nature of their powers are identical , merely that the function is(as your own scan flat out tells us) .
Wrong.

His one new power was the Antimatter Fireball. The one ability he wasn't duplicating but was brand new and unique to him!

I'm done with you in this thread TGK, troll someone else.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
Wrong.

His one new power was the Antimatter Fireball. The one ability he wasn't duplicating but was brand new and unique to him!

I'm done with you in this thread TGK, troll someone else.

As I have already told you multiple times now , that special new power was the ability to "Destroy anything" , by virtue of having anti-matter fire .

Plus I have also explained how anti-matter fire would compare to ordinary fire .

Nice to chat with you too .

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
It was shown on panel that the Watchers weren't fighting back. The FF even called them on it. It was shown on panel that the Watchers weren't fighting back AFTER The One had been killed by Exitar. However, there are no less than 3 separate statements which paint a picture that they HAD been battling to some extent before that...

"Cosmic war"
"Facing off"
"Major conflict"

2+2=dur

Originally posted by zopzop
Nathanial was CLEARLY talking to the FF since the Watchers weren't actively fighting the Celestials. It was a blanket comment. NO cap was placed. YOU ARE MAKING THAT PART UP.

Sue, and Sue alone, was the ONLY being there (inc. Watchers) who was capable of preforming this feat. Fact.

Originally posted by zopzop
The "rude comments" are because I'm being trolled by two posters ignoring what's shown clear as day on panel. No one is trolling you. Stop being so insecure.

All I/we are doing is calling you out on your nonsense. Your opinion (which is all you seem to have here) =/= evidence.

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
It was shown on panel that the Watchers weren't fighting back AFTER The One had been killed by Exitar. However, there are no less than 3 separate statements which paint a picture that they HAD been battling to some extent before that...

"Cosmic war"
"Facing off"
"Major conflict"

2+2=dur

It was a blanket comment. NO cap was placed. YOU ARE MAKING THAT PART UP.

Sue, and Sue alone, was the ONLY being there (inc. Watchers) who was capable of preforming this feat. Fact.

No one is trolling you. Stop being so insecure.

All I/we are doing is calling you out on your nonsense. Your opinion (which is all you seem to have here) =/= evidence.
Opinion backed up by on panel facts. Show me the scan of the Watchers fighting the Celestials (because I so kindly provided the scan of the Watchers not attacking the Celestials despite the fact that they are about to be wiped out)? Show me the scan where Nathaniel was address the FF and the Watchers (because I provided the scan of him speaking DIRECTLY to the FF with no Watchers in view on panel). You can't because you're full of sh|t. Arguing just for the sake of arguing.

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
Opinion backed up by on panel facts. Show me the scan of the Watchers fighting the Celestials (because I so kindly provided the scan of the Watchers not attacking the Celestials despite the fact that they are about to be wiped out)? It amazes me how you can so daftly ignore what I've mentioned multiple times. I'll make the text bigger this time so you can't miss it. It will also be easier for me to re-post. smile

WE DIDN'T GET TO SEE THE BATTLE ITSELF, WE ONLY SAW THE VERY END--AFTER 'THE ONE' WAS INCAPACITATED, WHICH ENDED THE BATTLE. OBVIOUSLY THERE AREN'T GOING TO BE SCANS OF THE CELESTIALS AND WATCHERS FIGHTING, BECAUSE WE DIDN'T GET TO SEE THE FIGHT. ALL WE HAVE TO GO BY ARE THE MULTIPLE COMMENTS THAT TELL US A BATTLE HAD BEEN TRANSPIRING:

"COSMIC WAR"
"FACING OFF"
"MAJOR CONFLICT"

Stop ignoring such blatant proof, and replacing it with conjecture. It's old. srsly

Originally posted by zopzop
Show me the scan where Nathaniel was address the FF and the Watchers (because I provided the scan of him speaking DIRECTLY to the FF with no Watchers in view on panel). Again:

NATHANIEL MADE A BLANKET COMMENT THAT SUE WAS THE ONLY BEING CAPABLE OF PREFORMING THIS FEAT. THE WATCHERS WERE ON THE SAME DAMN BATTLEFIELD AS SUE/NATHANIEL WHEN THIS BLANKET STATEMENT WAS MADE. SAID COMMENT HAD NO 'CAP'--YOU'RE MAKING THAT PART UP.

Originally posted by zopzop
You can't because you're full of sh|t. Arguing just for the sake of arguing. More childish comments? I guess they make your ego feel better, eh? Well, to each his own. smile

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
It amazes me how you can so daftly ignore what I've mentioned multiple times. I'll make the text bigger this time so you can't miss it. It will also be easier for me to re-post. smile

WE DIDN'T GET TO SEE THE BATTLE ITSELF, WE ONLY SAW THE VERY END--AFTER 'THE ONE' WAS INCAPACITATED, WHICH ENDED THE BATTLE. OBVIOUSLY THERE AREN'T GOING TO BE SCANS OF THE CELESTIALS AND WATCHERS FIGHTING, BECAUSE WE DIDN'T GET TO SEE THE FIGHT. ALL WE HAVE TO GO BY ARE THE MULTIPLE COMMENTS THAT TELL US A BATTLE HAD BEEN TRANSPIRING:

"COSMIC WAR"
"FACING OFF"
"MAJOR CONFLICT"

Stop ignoring such blatant proof, and replacing it with conjecture. It's old. srsly

Again:

NATHANIEL MADE A BLANKET COMMENT THAT SUE WAS THE ONLY BEING CAPABLE OF PREFORMING THIS FEAT. THE WATCHERS WERE ON THE SAME DAMN BATTLEFIELD AS SUE/NATHANIEL WHEN THIS BLANKET STATEMENT WAS MADE. SAID COMMENT HAD NO 'CAP'--YOU'RE MAKING THAT PART UP.

More childish comments? I guess they make your ego feel better, eh? Well, to each his own. smile

SHOW ME THE SCANS (see I can use caps too). I provided you scans of the Watchers not acting directly against the Celestials and even the FF calling them out on it. I'm sure you'll kindly provide scans of Watchers engaging the Celestials in some great war. I'll be waiting patiently.

And while you're at it, provide the scan of Nathaniel making that comment with any Watchers in view, because he was addressing the FF and it was shown on panel.

Till then STFU.

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
SHOW ME THE SCANS (see I can use caps too). I provided you scans of the Watchers not acting directly against the Celestials and even the FF calling them out on it. I'm sure you'll kindly provide scans of Watchers engaging the Celestials in some great war. I'll be waiting patiently. Scans of what? Statements? If you really want them, I'll post them.

Originally posted by zopzop
And while you're at it, provide the scan of Nathaniel making that comment with any Watchers in view, because he was addressing the FF and it was shown on panel. The Watchers were on the same battlefield as Sue/Nate before and after that comment was made. Are you suggesting that they teleported away from the field while Nate made that comment? lol

Seriously, I thought you were better than this. Guess not.

Originally posted by zopzop
Till then STFU. More trollish comments. Usually these type of comments are made out of desperation/anger. Too bad.

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
Scans of what? Statements? If you really want them, I'll post them.

The Watchers were on the same battlefield as Sue/Nate before and after that comment was made. Are you suggesting that they teleported away from the field while Nate made that comment? lol

Seriously, I thought you were better than this. Guess not.

More trollish comments. Usually these type of comments are made out of desperation/anger. Too bad.
I want scans of them FIGHTING their "great war". Because statements don't mean jack when you have ON PANEL depictions like this :
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/3600/savethem.th.jpg
"We have a moral responsibility to the Watchers, even if their sacred oath prevents them from saving themselves."

And this :
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3646/dontact.th.jpg

See why I say you are full of sh|t?

Still waiting to see scans of Nathaniel address the FF and any Watcher.

Galan007

Originally posted by zopzop
I want scans of them FIGHTING their "great war". Because statements don't mean jack when you have ON PANEL depictions like this :
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/3600/savethem.th.jpg
"We have a moral responsibility to the Watchers, even if their sacred oath prevents them from saving themselves."

And this :
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3646/dontact.th.jpg Like I've said numerous times already: Those statements were made AFTER Exitar downed The One, which means they were made when the battle was OVER.

And like I've ALSO said numerous times:

WE DIDN'T GET TO SEE THE BATTLE ITSELF, WE ONLY SAW THE VERY END--AFTER 'THE ONE' WAS INCAPACITATED, WHICH ENDED THE BATTLE. OBVIOUSLY THERE AREN'T GOING TO BE SCANS OF THE CELESTIALS AND WATCHERS FIGHTING, BECAUSE WE DIDN'T GET TO SEE THE FIGHT. ALL WE HAVE TO GO BY ARE THE MULTIPLE COMMENTS THAT TELL US A BATTLE HAD BEEN TRANSPIRING:

"COSMIC WAR"
"FACING OFF"
"MAJOR CONFLICT"

Seriously, what isn't computing here. You are ignoring the context of the story itself just to suit your argument. It's a said tactic, really.

Originally posted by zopzop
See why I say you are full of sh|t? No. I do see you blatantly ignoring context to suit your argument, though.

Originally posted by zopzop
Still waiting to see scans of Nathaniel address the FF and any Watcher. Nathaniel made a blanket comment. He didn't say "out of us four, only you can defeat Exitar." He said: "You AND YOU ALONE can reach the proper harmonic chord to rupture this alien shell!"

...And hundreds of Watchers were present when this was stated. Stop adding conjecture to such a blatant statement.

Crikey!

zopzop

Originally posted by Galan007
Like I've said numerous times already: Those statements were made AFTER Exitar downed The One, which means they were made when the battle was OVER.

And like I've ALSO said numerous times:

WE DIDN'T GET TO SEE THE BATTLE ITSELF, WE ONLY SAW THE VERY END--AFTER 'THE ONE' WAS INCAPACITATED, WHICH ENDED THE BATTLE. OBVIOUSLY THERE AREN'T GOING TO BE SCANS OF THE CELESTIALS AND WATCHERS FIGHTING, BECAUSE WE DIDN'T GET TO SEE THE FIGHT. ALL WE HAVE TO GO BY ARE THE MULTIPLE COMMENTS THAT TELL US A BATTLE HAD BEEN TRANSPIRING:

"COSMIC WAR"
"FACING OFF"
"MAJOR CONFLICT"

Seriously, what isn't computing here. You are ignoring the context of the story itself just to suit your argument. It's a said tactic, really.

No. I do see you blatantly ignoring context to suit your argument, though.

Nathaniel made a blanket comment. He didn't say "out of us four, only you can defeat Exitar." He said: "You AND YOU ALONE can reach the proper harmonic chord to rupture this alien shell!"

...And hundreds of Watchers were present when this was stated. Stop adding conjecture to such a blatant statement.

Crikey!
Kindly PROVIDE the scans of Watchers and Celestials engaging in some war. Because they are NOT engaging in attacking the Celestials as noted by the FF and Nathaniel even mentions that they should step in and save the Watchers because they won't do anything because of their oath. It's right there on panel.

Now can you provide scans of Watchers and Celestials engaging each other in a great war? I want to see it on panel. Can you provide scans of any Watcher in view on panel while Nathaniel was making his "only you can do it Sue" comments? Like I said, I'll wait patiently.