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Yup so its Avengers vs Punisher this time.

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2012/07/17/comic-con-greg-rucka-says-goodbye-to-the-punisher

Argh, who is in charge at Marvel? They don't have Rucka of all people locked down for future work? Jesus Christ. They should be throwing any project he wants at him to keep him happy. All the witless "talent" the sign to exclusive contracts... and they just ignore a writer of Rucka's caliber.

Marvel needs to just stick to XMen Events.

I have a feeling Punisher will be joining X-force and quite frankly thats the best and most logical step.

jeez, more crap i see.. the avengers will job so frank can look good..


afterward frank will be rebooted and marvel will deny it....lol

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
jeez, more crap i see.. the avengers will job so frank can look good..


afterward frank will be rebooted and marvel will deny it....lol

I don't know about that I think with enough prep hes capable of doing it. Like Rucka said Punisher already knew something like this was going to happen and hes already planned for it.

Rucka did indicate hes going to lose but he is going to give them hell.

I like Rucka, really, but yeah, massive PIS and jobbing will be in play for Frank in order to not lose in a single comic. I also like the Avengers psychology of deciding to crack down on Frank suddenly. This should have been a New Avengers only sort of thing; there's no reason the likes of Iron Man and Thor should be dealing with Castle.

At all.

Seriously PIS aside, if Tony ALONE decides to go bring in Castle, prep or no prep, Castle should be utterly phucked.

I bet they'll turn Frank into a prep-God for this event.

Rucka's interviews seem to indicate that he's going to ala Batman.

Serioulsy have you guys got amnesia or something? Didn't Punisher take on Norman Osborn and The Hood recently? Isn't Punisher one of the few guys to come the closet to killing Cap with prep (probably didn't succeed because he had apprehensions). Wait didn't Punisher actually program a security system Microchip couldn't break into to....

Serioulsy some of you guys need to stick to debating about DC abstracts.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I like Rucka, really, but yeah, massive PIS and jobbing will be in play for Frank in order to not lose in a single comic. I also like the Avengers psychology of deciding to crack down on Frank suddenly. This should have been a New Avengers only sort of thing; there's no reason the likes of Iron Man and Thor should be dealing with Castle.

At all.

You need to read the interview.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
Seriously PIS aside, if Tony ALONE decides to go bring in Castle, prep or no prep, Castle should be utterly phucked.

I don't think he could do that to Cap with prep, hes not doing it to Punisher.

Originally posted by Deadline
Serioulsy have you guys got amnesia or something? Didn't Punisher take on Norman Osborn and The Hood recently? Isn't Punisher one of the few guys to come the closet to killing Cap with prep (probably didn't succeed because he had apprehensions). Wait didn't Punisher actually program a security system Microchip couldn't break into to....

Serioulsy some of you guys need to stick to debating about DC abstracts.



You need to read the interview.



I don't think he could do that to Cap with prep, hes not doing it to Punisher.

By that same hand The combined might of the avengers has done things and taken people Frank could never dream of. High feats go both ways.

Originally posted by Deadline
Serioulsy have you guys got amnesia or something? Didn't Punisher take on Norman Osborn and The Hood recently? Isn't Punisher one of the few guys to come the closet to killing Cap with prep (probably didn't succeed because he had apprehensions). Wait didn't Punisher actually program a security system Microchip couldn't break into to....

Serioulsy some of you guys need to stick to debating about DC abstracts.



You need to read the interview.



I don't think he could do that to Cap with prep, hes not doing it to Punisher.

I actually did read the interview. Rucka clearly stated that Frank has contingencies for the Avengers. If you think Punisher with prep, without PIS/jobbing/plot device can outright beat the likes of Steve, Tony, and Thor and their pals, you'd be wrong. His showings in Dark Reign were good, but Norman isn't Stark. A mentally degrading Tony was able to keep several steps ahead of Norman and even bragged about it.

I think Batman, with prep, handling the JLA is almost always sprinkled with various degrees of PIS. No reason why Frank dealing with the Avengers wouldn't be, either.

And yes, unless Frank has Reed, Doom, or Pym level prep time and resources, I have a hard time imagining him beating Iron Man without some heavy context.

Originally posted by jalek moye
By that same hand The combined might of the avengers has done things and taken people Frank could never dream of. High feats go both ways.

That's irrelevant. Not arguing hes going to win, I'm arguing hes going to give them a hard time with a lot of prep. There not high feats for Punisher at all. It's pretty standard.

Also I don't know about that at all. If Punisher had access to alot of high-tech equipment like Batman, he could take out alot of powerful people. In fact I'm betting if Punisher had access to the same equipment that Tony Stark did, hes beating Tony Stark in a prep war. Punisher's weakness is the equipment he has access to.

Hes kind alike Nick Fury. Nick Fury isn't a tech guy but he has access to hiugh-tech equipment, it's his shrewdness that makes him hard to beat.

Originally posted by Deadline
That's irrelevant. Not arguing hes going to win, I'm arguing hes going to give them a hard time with a lot of prep. There not high feats for Punisher at all. It's pretty standard.

Also I don't know about that at all. If Punisher had access to alot of high-tech equipment like Batman, he could take out alot of powerful people. In fact I'm betting if Punisher had access to the same equipment that Tony Stark did, hes beating Tony Stark in a prep war. Punisher's weakness is the equipment he has access to.


And like if Iron Fist was a kryptonian he'd wtf pwn Superman. See the problem with that? Prep characters utilize very different kinds of prep due to their different ways of thinking and lives.

The Avengers operate on a much higher scale then him and and do things he could never do on his own. Him putting up a decent fight against them is either flat out pis or him using way better stuff then he can normally acess while they are operating either middle of the road or flat out low level.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
His showings in Dark Reign were good, but Norman isn't Stark. A mentally degrading Tony was able to keep several steps ahead of Norman and even bragged about it.

LOL Norman Osborn is a tactical genuis. Norman Osborn wasn't just taking on Tony Stark but craploads of people. Do you not realise how much power Norman had and the people he had to deal with?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

I think Batman, with prep, handling the JLA is almost always sprinkled with various degrees of PIS. No reason why Frank dealing with the Avengers wouldn't be, either.

Actually I don't know about that at all. Batman being able to give them a hard time but not beating the JLA is PIS?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank


And yes, unless Frank has Reed, Doom, or Pym level prep time and resources, I have a hard time imagining him beating Iron Man without some heavy context.

Of course hes going to have access to high-tech equipment. What do you think hes going to take them on with, an AK47? If Punisher had the same equipment that Tony has Tony is going to lose.

Originally posted by jalek moye
And like if Iron Fist was a kryptonian he'd wtf pwn Superman. See the problem with that? Prep characters utilize very different kinds of prep due to their different ways of thinking and lives.


No, it's just not relevant.

Originally posted by jalek moye

The Avengers operate on a much higher scale then him and and do things he could never do on his own. Him putting up a decent fight against them is either flat out pis or him using way better stuff then he can normally acess while they are operating either middle of the road or flat out low level.

Do you understand the concept of if somebody has feats to back something up then it's not PIS? The Avengers don't operate on a mich highier scale than Norman Osborn and The Hood. Anyone that has been shown to be tactically superior to Cap on more than ocassion and nearly killed him with little prep can take on The Avengers with craploads of prep.

Really quite simple.

Originally posted by Deadline
No, it's just not relevant.



Do you understand the concept of if somebody has feats to back something up then it's not PIS? The Avengers don't operate on a mich highier scale than Norman Osborn and The Hood. Anyone that has been shown to be tactically superior to Cap on more than ocassion and nearly killed him with little prep can take on The Avengers with craploads of prep.

Really quite simple.

Ok so like I said, basically Punisher's high feats are all fine and dandy but the avengers aren't. Frank at his best isn't soling The avenegrs at their best unless he has better prep then he ahs ever had on his own before.

Nearly killing Cap is nowhere near the same as taking, Thor, Ms marvel, Iron Man and Rulk (plus cap and the others) at once when they aren't jobbing.

But I doubt you'll see that since this is Punisher we're talking about

Originally posted by Deadline
LOL Norman Osborn is a tactical genuis. Norman Osborn wasn't just taking on Tony Stark but craploads of people. Do you not realise how much power Norman had and the people he had to deal with?



Actually I don't know about that at all. Batman being able to give them a hard time but not beating the JLA is PIS?



Of course hes going to have access to high-tech equipment. What do you think hes going to take them on with, an AK47? If Punisher had the same equipment that Tony has Tony is going to lose.

Um, no, he is not. He is a shrewd politician and manipulator with various degrees in science, notably being a great chemist and decent weapons designer. He is, in no way, shape, or form, on par with Tony Stark, which was repeatedly hammered (no pun intended) home during Dark Reign. He used existing tech and had other people smarter than he help him out immensely for virtually all of his plots. Norman basically lucked out immensely and stepped in to fill the power vacuum left behind by Stark himself.

Batman's prep for the JLA is often at the expense of the intelligence and capabilities of the League members themselves. Batman's prep against Superman is almost always served with some PIS or plot device to ensure Superman doesn't just end him in a moment's notice.

If Frank uses Starktech against Stark, he's going to lose barring PIS and plot device, especially considering the number of people and time Starktech has been used against Tony himself. The idea that Frank can beat Iron Man with his own tech is pretty ridiculous.

Originally posted by jalek moye
Ok so like I said, basically Punisher's high feats are all fine and dandy but the avengers aren't. Frank at his best isn't soling The avenegrs at their best unless he has better prep then he ahs ever had on his own before.

Again their not high end feats. The reason why he was able to take on Norman Osborn and The Hood was because he had high-tech equipment.

Thats why I compared him to Nick Fury. Nick Fury is not capable of building hi-tech equipment and if he runs into Iron Man he can't beat him unless he has prep. But if you give him the equipment he going to beat Tony in a prep war because hes tactically superior.

If you look at Punishers feat hes capable of doing it and hes got alot of feats to prove it.

Originally posted by jalek moye

Nearly killing Cap is nowhere near the same as taking, Thor, Ms marvel, Iron Man and Rulk (plus cap and the others) at once when they aren't jobbing.

But I doubt you'll see that since this is Punisher we're talking about

No it's really quite simple. Captain America is the best tactician The Avengers have. Punisher beat him with little prep. Punisher in this mini is going to have craploads of prep. As Rucka indicated from the interview Punisher knew this was coming and had been planning for ages.

Heres an analogy. If I can lift 1 ton I can take on a vampire. Give me elite class 100 strength I can take on Spiderman and a crapload of other people. Substitute strength for prep and thats the situation we have. Not sure if I can explain this better.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Um, no, he is not. He is a shrewd politician and manipulator with various degrees in science, notably being a great chemist and decent weapons designer.


See now you're just playing with semantics. Being a shrewd polictcian and a manipulator doesn't have anything to do with tactics? So basically his tactics made him one of the most important people on marvel earth and that makes you not impressive?

Serioulsy what point are you trying to make. That Norman is dumbass? That Norman is a moderate tactician? I didn't read the arc but didn't Norman take on The Avengers again? Norman is up there with the very best.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

He is, in no way, shape, or form, on par with Tony Stark, which was repeatedly hammered (no pun intended) home during Dark Reign. He used existing tech and had other people smarter than he help him out immensely for virtually all of his plots. Norman basically lucked out immensely and stepped in to fill the power vacuum left behind by Stark himself.


As I stated earlier he wasn't just taking on Tony Stark but loads of other people as well. Hell I'm pretty sure I saw at least one example where Tony had help or luck.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank


Batman's prep for the JLA is often at the expense of the intelligence and capabilities of the League members themselves.

Not even sure if thats a good point.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank


Batman's prep against Superman is almost always served with some PIS or plot device to ensure Superman doesn't just end him in a moment's notice.



Maybe so but depending on what members your talking about The JLA are arguably more powerful than The Avengers. Bottomline Pun took on Norman and The Hood, which indicates hes capable of doing it.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank


If Frank uses Starktech against Stark, he's going to lose barring PIS and plot device, especially considering the number of people and time Starktech has been used against Tony himself. The idea that Frank can beat Iron Man with his own tech is pretty ridiculous.

Not neccesarily his own tech but equipment just as advanced. No it isn't because Punisher has been shown to be smarter than Cap and if Tony went up against Cap in a prep war he'd lose.

These threads are becoming as formulaic as the events. It's a business models guys. Don't like the events? Don't read them.

srug

Originally posted by Deadline
If Punisher had the same equipment that Tony has Tony is going to lose.

With massive PIS in play maybe.

Marvel is being run by idiots, not because if an event, but because they're canceling The Punisher, one of the best books they've got going right now.

Guess they needed room for more xmen and Avengers books, not enough of those going.

How is he going to take Thor? Anti-magic bullets?

This isn't the best idea I've heard. It was a comedy when Garth Ennis had Punisher Kill The Marvel Universe; now they're doing it for real? (Sigh) Is Frank going to become the Prometheus of Marvel to do this?

It's a bigger concern that Greg Rucka is leaving Punisher after this, though. First Ed Brubaker wrapping up things, now him? Is Alex Alonso pissing a lot of people off in the office?

Maybe Axel Alonso is Loki?

Honestly it seems like Marvel had a meeting with various creators and just yelled "CHANGE PLACES!" as far as who was on which book is concerned.

Feels like Marvel was better off under Joe Q as Editor in Chief then Axel.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Honestly it seems like Marvel had a meeting with various creators and just yelled "CHANGE PLACES!" as far as who was on which book is concerned.

Like musical chairs, with Rucka in this case not getting a chair.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
With massive PIS in play maybe.

No no PIS at all. I don't know take it to the vs forum.

I could make one, but we gotta consider tony at his BEST if there's no PIS in play. And we all know the level he operates on at his best.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
I could make one, but we gotta consider tony at his BEST if there's no PIS in play. And we all know the level he operates on at his best.

It doesn't matter wether hes at his best hes going to lose. Tony essentially had a prep war against Cap in Civil War, he lost. You could argue that Punisher in some aspects is a better tactician than Cap and thats why Tony will lose.

Cap also had plenty of help working alongside him in the form of former SHIELD agents, other anti-reg heroes, and the benefit of knowing Tony for years on end.

Really don't see how Iron Man with prep at his best loses to Punisher with prep at his best, especially if Frank is using StarkTech against him.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Cap also had plenty of help working alongside him in the form of former SHIELD agents, other anti-reg heroes, and the benefit of knowing Tony for years on end.

facepalm Do you want to re-think what you posted? It statements like that that make not even bother posting on this forum.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Really don't see how Iron Man with prep at his best loses to Punisher with prep at his best, especially if Frank is using StarkTech against him.

It doesn't have to be StarkTech in fact I can see him beeing smart enough not to use it.

Maybe he uses some of that space stuff

Originally posted by Deadline
facepalm Do you want to re-think what you posted? It statements like that that make not even bother posting on this forum.

Why? How is what he said not accurate/reasonable?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Maybe he uses some of that space stuff

It's not canon to 616.

--
Punisher vs. Avengers facepalm Phantom Zone wanking Frank as hard as he can. Why am I not surprised...? *sigh*

Originally posted by Deadline
facepalm Do you want to re-think what you posted? It statements like that that make not even bother posting on this forum.



It doesn't have to be StarkTech in fact I can see him beeing smart enough not to use it.

Re-think it? What's there to re-think? Cap didn't singlehandedly out prep Tony. Not by a long shot. He had help, lots of it, plus the loyalty and experience of working alongside the Avengers and superhuman community at large. Those are advantages Frank doesn't have.

There's not much tech on Marvel Earth that Frank can realistically get his hands on and use to great effect on an equally prepped Tony Stark. Not without some PIS in any case. Best case scenario for Frank is that he gets massive one sided prep against Tony and Tony literally expects and suspects nothing. Frank singlehandedly out prepping Tony and the rest of the Avengers would be absurd as hell.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
It's not canon to 616.

What's to stop them from making it canon?

Deadline get your hands off Franks dick.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Re-think it? What's there to re-think? Cap didn't singlehandedly out prep Tony. Not by a long shot. He had help, lots of it, plus the loyalty and experience of working alongside the Avengers and superhuman community at large. Those are advantages Frank doesn't have.

There's not much tech on Marvel Earth that Frank can realistically get his hands on and use to great effect on an equally prepped Tony Stark. Not without some PIS in any case. Best case scenario for Frank is that he gets massive one sided prep against Tony and Tony literally expects and suspects nothing. Frank singlehandedly out prepping Tony and the rest of the Avengers would be absurd as hell. Gotta agree. For a group that prepares to take on characters like Kang he conquerer, ultron or doctor doom, frank is small potatoes. Where could he possibly get the tech to take them on? Latveria? Does anyone honesty believe frank could break into the baxter building and steal their tech?

Deadline is hilarious.

This event is a reminder of why I don't read comics anymore.

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Gotta agree. For a group that prepares to take on characters like Kang he conquerer, ultron or doctor doom, frank is small potatoes.


Not neccesarily a logical argument. Cap has taken on Korvac more than once and Red Skull with the cosmic cube, that didn't stop Punisher from coming very close to killing him with very little prep. The Avengers dont always take on Galactus or Kang, there are alot of villains that aren't as dangerous as the ones you mentioned that have given The Avengers a hard time.

I'm not arguing that hes going to beat The Avengers just give them a hard time. The problem is is that Punisher operates usually on the street but if you see some of the stuff that he does you can logically deduce he would be estremely dangerous with hi-tech. As I've already mentioned twice he recently took on Norman and The Hood....


Originally posted by HueyFreeman

Where could he possibly get the tech to take them on? Latveria? Does anyone honesty believe frank could break into the baxter building and steal their tech?

You see heres the problem. First of all I think there is an element of snobbishness when it comes to The Punisher and also he doesn't have eniough fans. When you mention The Punisher people just lose the ability to be objective.

First of all In Punisher #13 A criminal organization had gained access to Reed and Stark tach. From what I can see it pretty much looks like Punisher stole the stuff.

Wait a minute didn't Wolverine break into the Baxter building with the help of Hydra and The Hand. Ok so now Punisher can't steal tech from Hydra and The Hand now?

Furthermore don't they sale hi-tech equipment on the black market? Hell there was one issue of Gambit where some thug stole a mutant inhibitor. No a mutant inhibitor isn't going to help you take out an Iron Man suit, but thats some serioulsy advanced tech.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Re-think it? What's there to re-think? Cap didn't singlehandedly out prep Tony. Not by a long shot. He had help, lots of it, plus the loyalty and experience of working alongside the Avengers and superhuman community at large.

It's a silly argument because all the advatanges that Cap had Tony had. You're saying that Cap has worked alongside The Avengers and the superhuman community but so has Tony Stark as well.

Are you trying to argue that just because it didn't just involve Cap and Tony on their own that it's not an example of Cap being superior in tactics? The fact that Cap was the leader of the anti-reg and the fact that Tony was the leader of the pro-reg and they both had to plan, prep, take control of their 'troops' is irrelevant? Not to mention that Tony had more troops, more resources and more powerful members on his side

The Civil War was essentially a prep war. Yeah there was face-to-face fighting but before the actual fights happened there was alot of planning. Cap had resources, Tony had more and better resources and he lost ie Cap won but decided to give himself up.

Obvoulsy the Civil War has great baring on a situation where its just Cap with equal level tech and Tony had equal level tech and they had a prep war. Just because it's not exactly 100% the same situation I'm talking about doesn't stop it from being extremely relevant.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Those are advantages Frank doesn't have.

Hes been studying Tony for years.......


Originally posted by JakeTheBank

There's not much tech on Marvel Earth that Frank can realistically get his hands on and use to great effect on an equally prepped Tony Stark. Not without some PIS in any case.

Again clearly illustrating why I don't post on these forums. Have you not been reading comics for long? SHIELD, HYDRA and Wilson Fisk are capable of getting their hands on Tony Stark level tech. Moon Knight can get his hands on Tony Stark tech for crying out loud.

Are you going to argue that HYDRA, SHIELD and Wilson Fisk are beyond The Punisher?


Originally posted by JakeTheBank


Best case scenario for Frank is that he gets massive one sided prep against Tony and Tony literally expects and suspects nothing. Frank singlehandedly out prepping Tony and the rest of the Avengers would be absurd as hell.

I'm not arguing that Punisher is going to beat The Avengers don't put words in my mouth but I'm arguing he can beat Tony.

You keep using this word PIS. Please try to explain how you are having a hard time trying to comprehend that Punisher was able to take on Norman Osborn and The Hood? Didn't we already discuss this? Yes we pretty much established that Norman Osborn is one of the best tacticians, what you tried to do was downplay Normans tactical ability and tried to play with semantics.

Norman Osborn actually saved The Earth during Dark Reign....thats how important he was. facepalm

Furthermore I've already mentioned you can argue that Cap is a better tactician than Cap heres the proof:

1.

In the Civil War Cap goes with Frank’s plan instead of his own.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4607/image012cwoo0.th.jpghttp://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9640/image013lj8.th.jpg

The writer is talking about Punisher and Cap and speaking through The Punisher. The point is that since Cap was born in WW2 Cap is more straight forward. Punisher was born in Vietnam, instead of him taking the straight forward approach he is alot more sneakier. End result Cap nearly gets killed and Punisher has to save his life.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/8016/puncapcompare1.th.jpghttp://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2876/puncapcompare2.th.jpghttp://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9296/puncapcompare3.th.jpghttp://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3590/puncapcompare4.th.jpg

I know what you're going to say so I'm going to have to get in there before you make the argument I know you're going to make. No it doesn't involve hi-tech equipment and no it doesn't involve chess. The fact of the matter is this... both The Punisher and Cap had the same resources ie their arms and legs, they both had to think about how they were going to get up there and stop the driver and Punisher came out better. Give yourself a situation where Punisher has lots of hi-tech equipment and he'll do even better.




3. I can't be bothered to get the scans but earlier on in the mini he guns down Cap. How many people have tried to assassinate Cap and came that close?


When were talking about tactics I'm talking about black ops, assassination, subertufuge etc.

Originally posted by Kazenji
Deadline get your hands off Franks dick.

Read what I posted above and try and tell me what I'm saying isn't reasonable.

Hell I know some posters are just trying to be rude but I'm a bit suprised about you.

Originally posted by Deadline
Wait a minute didn't Wolverine break into the Baxter building with the help of Hydra and The Hand. Ok so now Punisher can't steal tech from Hydra and The Hand now?

Wolverine's also done it without any upgrades. Frank Castle isn't Wolverine, though. Not even close.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Wolverine's also done it without any upgrades. Frank Castle isn't Wolverine, though. Not even close.

Wait what? You serioulsy trying to tell me that Wolverine broke into the Baxter building WITHOUT any tech? Is that what you're trying to argue? Omigod Stilt why don't you get off Wolverine's dick, see what I mean about not having enough Punisher fans and snobbery?

No sorry as far as I'm concerned Punisher is a better assassin. How many times has Punisher made Wolverine look like an idiot? Oh and you can forget Einnis because way back in the late 80s a tired Punisher held his own against Wolverine, hell he didn't even know who Wolverine was and Wolverine was trying kill him. Furthermore in a Wolverine and Punisher mni they were both hunting the same guy....Punisher found him first.

Please.

Originally posted by Deadline
Wait what? You serioulsy trying to tell me that Wolverine broke into the Baxter building WITHOUT any tech? Is that what you're trying to argue? Omigod Stilt why don't you get off Wolverine's dick, see what I mean about not having enough Punisher fans and snobbery?

No sorry as far as I'm concerned Punisher is a better assassin. How many times has Punisher made Wolverine look like an idiot? Oh and you can forget Einnis because way back in the late 80s a tired Punisher held his own against Wolverine, hell he didn't even know who Wolverine was and Wolverine was trying kill him. Furthermore in a Wolverine and Punisher mni they were both hunting the same guy....Punisher found him first.

Please.

How is what he's doing any different from what you're doing?

Originally posted by -Pr-
How is what he's doing any different from what you're doing?

I posted evidence to back up my claims. Which you're probably going to fob off.

Originally posted by Deadline
Wait what? You serioulsy trying to tell me that Wolverine broke into the Baxter building WITHOUT any tech? Is that what you're trying to argue? Omigod Stilt why don't you get off Wolverine's dick, see what I mean about not having enough Punisher fans and snobbery?

No sorry as far as I'm concerned Punisher is a better assassin. How many times has Punisher made Wolverine look like an idiot? Oh and you can forget Einnis because way back in the late 80s a tired Punisher held his own against Wolverine, hell he didn't even know who Wolverine was and Wolverine was trying kill him. Furthermore in a Wolverine and Punisher mni they were both hunting the same guy....Punisher found him first.

Please.

He did. Cry more.

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2176/sneaksintobaxterbuildinyi1.jpg

Castle can't dream of being a better assassin. I hope you're not arguing Frank is a match for him... or that he's a better tracker

Originally posted by Deadline
I posted evidence to back up my claims. Which you're probably going to fob off.

If it had been actual evidence, I wouldn't have to.

There is no snobbishness where Punisher is concerned; you just tend to have unrealistic expectations of the guy, and too often start trying to use ABC logic to prove a point.

"If Cap did X, then why can't Punisher to x too?" isn't logical.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He did. Cry more.

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2176/sneaksintobaxterbuildinyi1.jpg

Castle can't dream of being a better assassin. I hope you're not arguing Frank is a match for him... or that he's a better tracker

He said 'I got my ways'. That doesn't mean he didn't use any tech. Why are you making assumptions, when we have seen him on another ocassion having to use it?

No I'm arguing hes a better assassin.




Originally posted by -Pr-
If it had been actual evidence, I wouldn't have to.

There is no snobbishness where Punisher is concerned; you just tend to have unrealistic expectations of the guy, and too often start trying to use ABC logic to prove a point.

"If Cap did X, then why can't Punisher to x too?" isn't logical.

Look you're one of the worst debators on this forum. You're wasting my time again and doing you're usual bullying tatics.

I'm done with you and I'm not going to make another post to you. However if you continue to be insulting I'm going to throw up a post in here where it illustrates how you can't comprehend simple logic. You're one of the most unobjective posters on this forum. Carry on and thats how this is gonna go down.

Originally posted by Deadline
Look you're one of the worst debators on this forum.

Says who?



i'm not bullying anyone; i'm just responding to your antagonistic posts.

basically, if people don't rate punisher as abnormally high as you want them to, you lose your shit like a baby tossing a rattle out of a pram.



threatening me now? Go ahead; I'd love to see how this "goes down". Or are these more empty threats? wouldn't be the first time you've used one.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Says who?



i'm not bullying anyone; i'm just responding to your antagonistic posts.

basically, if people don't rate punisher as abnormally high as you want them to, you lose your shit like a baby tossing a rattle out of a pram.



threatening me now? Go ahead; I'd love to see how this "goes down". Or are these more empty threats? wouldn't be the first time you've used one.

Are you done? Yes or No?

Originally posted by Deadline
Are you done? Yes or No?

Nope; I'm dying to see you carry through this "threat" of yours. Curiosity is a horrible thing.

I love how you can call me insulting even though you get pissy at almost anyone who doesn'r agree with you.

So, in short, bring it on.

* is this Marvel's "THIS IS WAR"?

lol. Nice to know you don't listen to mod rulings.

Gladiator starts every fight at peak confidence, which is where his averages come from. It's something Bada and I have repeated more than once.

Swing and a miss, Deadline.

PIS and the suspension of disbelief is part of every comic-book that's ever been made. Attempting to refute its existence is pointless.

It will take (and there will be) incredible amounts of PIS involved in This Is War in order for Punisher to hold his own against the Avengers. How anyone can think otherwise is completely beyond me.

Christ, Deadline. facepalm

Originally posted by Citizen V.
It will take (and there will be) incredible amounts of PIS involved in This Is War in order for Punisher to hold his own against the Avengers. How anyone can think otherwise is completely beyond me. This.

Originally posted by -Pr-
lol. Nice to know you don't listen to mod rulings.

Gladiator starts every fight at PEAK confidence, which is where his averages come from. It's something Bada and I have repeated more than once.

Swing and a miss, Deadline.

*sigh* Wether or not you made some ruling afterwards is irrelevant, thats NOT the ruling you made in that thread

Originally posted by -Pr-
the op didn't imply anything. it was quite bare.

gladiator by STANDARD rules starts off at whatever STANDARD confidence is for him.

i know about gladiator, and the rules remain the same. we go by averages.

So you still can't comprehend simple english? Standard and peak are the same now? Let me guess are you going to tell me when you said standard confidence for him you mean't peak?

Gods knows whats you're going to do next. You're lying about the argument you made in that thread and if I call you out on the lie you're making you'll probably tell me thats not the argument you were making.

Lie, cheat and steal.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank


LOL he just blantantly contradicted himself. Youd didn't even bother to read what was actually posted you just assumed he was correct.

Thats the problem you don't think you need to make an effort because certain posters make certain arguments and about certain characters.

Originally posted by Galan007
Christ, Deadline. facepalm

This.

You're actually supposed to make a rebuttal. Not just ignore what people have to say and just assume you're correct.

Originally posted by Deadline
*sigh* Wether or not you made some ruling afterwards is irrelevant, thats NOT the ruling you made in that thread



So you still can't comprehend simple english? Standard and peak are the same now? Let me guess are you going to tell me when you said standard confidence for him you mean't peak?

Gods knows whats you're going to do next. You're lying about the argument you made in that thread and if I call you out on the lie you're making you'll probably tell me thats not the argument you were making.

Lie, cheat and steal.



LOL he just blantanly contradicted himself. Youd didn't even bother to read what was actually posted you just assumed he was correct.



You're actually supposed to make a rebuttal. Not just ignore what people have to say and just assume you're correct.

The ruling i made in that thread was that we still use averages. Which ended up being the ruling later on too, so i don't see where you're going with this.

gladiator is always at peak confidence at the start of a fight. that's his standard setting. is that simple enough for you? jesus, just read it.

it's not my fault you refuse to or simply can't understand mod directives. we went through this same shit with full capacity and abc logic, and you still whined about that too.

Originally posted by -Pr-
The ruling i made in that thread was that we still use averages.


and you were wrong. You don't go by averages because in that thread Gladiator was at peak confidence.

Originally posted by -Pr-

Which ended up being the ruling later on too, so i don't see where you're going with this.


As I said thats irrelevant. Please try and read whats posted.

Originally posted by -Pr-


gladiator is always at peak confidence at the start of a fight. that's his standard setting. is that simple enough for you? jesus, just read it.



You can't tell me to read the thing when you don't know the difference in the english language between peak and standard

Again thats NOT the argument you made in that thread. facepalm You're argument was that he was at STANDARD confidence at the beginning of the fight not PEAK. Thats why you said..

Originally posted by -Pr-
the op didn't imply anything. it was quite bare.

gladiator by standard rules starts off at whatever STANDARD CONFIDENCE is for him.

i know about gladiator, and the rules remain the same. we go by averages.

You weren't trying to argue that peak was his standard setting. Thats a flthy lie. If that were the case you wouldn't have kept on arguing that the OP didn't say he was at peak

Originally posted by Deadline
You're actually supposed to make a rebuttal. Not just ignore what people have to say and just assume you're correct. Thing is, this never should have been a 'debate'. You're taking things WAY too seriously.

Originally posted by Galan007
Thing is, this never should have been a 'debate'. You're taking things WAY too seriously.

I had a bad week. If I want to get irritated because some posters want to treat me like an idiot in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter. I would have usually just ignored it.

So you've made a conscious decision to act a fool?

Pretty sure I didn't say that, but there you go.

Originally posted by Deadline
and you were wrong. You don't go by averages because in that thread Gladiator was at peak confidence.



As I said thats irrelevant. Please try and read whats posted.



You can't tell me to read the thing when you don't know the difference in the english language between peak and standard

Again thats NOT the argument you made in that thread. facepalm You're argument was that he was at STANDARD confidence at the beginning of the fight not PEAK. Thats why you said..



You weren't trying to argue that peak was his standard setting. Thats a flthy lie. If that were the case you wouldn't have kept on arguing that the OP didn't say he was at peak

You're not listening. When Gladiator is at peak confidence, his averages still apply. Both Bada and I have said this more than once.

You're missing the point, AGAIN. Peak confidence is how Gladiator is as standard. He doesn't go in to fights depressed because his ass looks fat in his tights. At the start of any fight, it's assumed that he's at peak confidence. Again, this is what Bada and I have said numerous times.

When I said standard, it was because I had misread the OP. In the grand scheme of things it didn't matter, as Bada and I were forced to define Gladiator's confidence, which we did.

It's not about what I'm arguing, it's about how it is.

You're acting like the confidence difference would have made an actual difference, when it didn't.

What I was arguing, was that there was no difference between standard and peak confidence, which was what was eventually argued.

I did err when i misread the OP, which I admitted.

So i'd watch the accusations, and actually come to a defined point, if i were you.

Incidentally, what is your point?

That I misread an OP? I already admitted that.

Look at Punisher War Zone #2.....Cover Reveals some Marvel NOW! Redesigns

Hahaha, Frank Castle! Saw that image of him with the beard, first though: SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE!!!!