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Count Dooku runs a gauntlet. There's two scenarios.

Scenario 1: 1 hour rest after each match.
Scenario 2: Full rest after each match.

Arena: Where Obi-Wan killed Grievous

1. Qui-Gon Jinn + TPM Obi-Wan
2. Kit Fisto + Shaak Ti
3. Darth Maul
4. ANH Obi-Wan
5. ROTS Grievous + 2 Magnaguards
6. ROTS Obi-Wan
7. ESB Vader
8. Mace Windu

How long?

Never makes it past Maul either time. Might even fall to Qui Gon and Obi if they're fighting as a team.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Never makes it past Maul either time. Might even fall to Qui Gon and Obi if they're fighting as a team.

Don't you think his knowledge of the force would be enough to defeat Maul?

Yea, he could beat Maul pretty well with force powers, unless he's pretty tired. Still, a full hours rest isn't bad.

I'd say he does clear one solidly, 2's pretty hard, beats 3 with force.. honestly it's pretty hard to rate 4 but I'd say passes, beats 5, has beaten 6, definitely stops at 7.

Of the first 6, 2 is probably the hardest.

Well, if he makes it past number 5... He definitely dies at 6... You know, 'cause that's what we see in the movie...?

Let's not forget that Qui-Gon is not Windu's equal as it was normally rumored. I say Obi-Wan can take him with lightsaber's only but Dooku's refined Force skills might give him win. After that he loses.

Originally posted by Arhael
Let's not forget that Qui-Gon is not Windu's equal as it was normally rumored. I say Obi-Wan can take him with lightsaber's only but Dooku's refined Force skills might give him win. After that he loses.

I say Dooku with full rest clears the first 6 and after that, well, I honestly think he could win both, but also lose both.

What I sad was sarcasm. Of course he gets past 6.

I say he actually dies at 8.

The pairing in 1 pretty much lost to Maul, and Dooku > Maul.

Master Obi-Wan and Anakin > Qui-Gon and Padawan/Knight Obi-Wan

Obi and Anakin didn't fight as a team because of the young one's idiocy/anger. As a team they would have crushed. Anakin took him solo a short time later when he was focused, so had both pushed the Dookie as a pair it would have been ova.

I see Dooku getting to 6, before it ends in a stalemate. Obi-Wan was the best master of Soresu at the time, as noted by both Dooku and Windu. It'd just go on and on, if it was pure sabers. Force-wise, Dooku could catch Obi offguard and fling him around again.

Nope. Dooku>Kenobi. Established for a long time.

Too busy to explain right now.

Kenobi managed Anakin at the height of his Force and saber ability, the same Anakin who had previously taken the Dookie. Obi-Wan survives the day.

Though Kenobi only won due to using the terrain to his advantage.

Still... Kenobi probably has the best lightsaber feat of all time.

Totally high and casually strolling around deflecting blaster bolts.
^ - Just had to mention that. I laughed when I read it the first time.

But honestly. As the foremost master of Soresu at the time, and his intuition, I can see him stalemating Dooku, not winning outright. Dooku will either find a way through the guard, or they'll both get really really tired. Since both styles place an emphasis on not expending energy.

Stops at 7 for scenario one, dies at Grievious for scenario two.

You guys DO know that Makashi is a form renowned for being able to penetrate a Soresu defense, correct? Thats why Kenobi has no chance against Dooku.

Originally posted by Pwned
Nope. Dooku>Kenobi. Established for a long time.

Too busy to explain right now.

Yeah don't know why this is being questioned. It doesn't need to be explained, Obi get omgwtfpwned twice from an old Dooku. It's not a contest between the two.

Originally posted by Pwned
You guys DO know that Makashi is a form renowned for being able to penetrate a Soresu defense, correct? Thats why Kenobi has no chance against Dooku.
It's a myth. Wrong. And makes no sense.

First of all this is later form. When Makashi was created, they didn't even consider Soresu as it did not exist. So, if one of this forms "would" have advantage over other, it would be Soresu.

Moreover, RotS novel proved this myth wrong. Will right more about it later from work.

In the ROTS novel, Dooku was tooling Obi-Wan and Anakin before Anakin got angry and Dooku tired so I don't think he has a problem with Kenobi.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
But honestly. As the foremost master of Soresu at the time, and his intuition, I can see him stalemating Dooku, not winning outright. Dooku will either find a way through the guard, or they'll both get really really tired. Since both styles place an emphasis on not expending energy.
I agree that saber only battle between the two will be much, much closer.
Not that it matters here though, cos in all out Dooku casually pwns Obi-Wan with the Force.



In scenario 1 Dooku goes down at 7, in scenario 2 he stops at 8.

Here we go. I found some quotes from my copy of the RoTS novelization:

'He drove a series slashing thrusts towards Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine through kidneys . . . He failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet.'

'Perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving more than a millimeter than what was necessary, deflecting without effort.'

I'm not a big fan of Obi-Wan honestly, but it's unfair to say he'd get completely dominated in terms of saber combat. He did manage to defend himself against a Greivous her was moving at something like '20 strikes a second' if I remember correctly.

I assumed that it would be Kenobi by the end of RotS. Where he was capable of fighting enraged Anakin as well as resist his TK.

RotS seems to support Kenobi to be firmly above Dooku with lightsaber but this novelization contradicts a lot gcanon and a lot of other material avaliable that I have difficulty accepting it as valid portrayal.

During fight with Dooku he pretended to be ataru practitioner but ones he changed to Soresu, Dooku couldn't do a thing to him with lightsaber. Also, unlike movie, in book those two droids play pivotal role in defeating Kenobi. Those droids shoot at Anakin, which allows Dooku to kick him in stomach and as Kenobi cuts them down, Dooku kicks him in the chin and then accelerates Kenobi's fall with TK. So in book Dooku does not overpower him with TK but takes advantage of droids.

Grievous is portrayed much stronger, than in gcanon. Two council members were protecting Palpatine: Shaak Ti and Stass Allice and they coudn't stop Grievous from kidnapping him.

In talk about Grievous Windu in a way places Obi-Wan above even himself and Yoda. And he doesn't specifically puts accent on style as it is very basic form. He says that Windu created Vaapad to answer his inner darkness and Yoda mastered Ataru to overcome his physical limitations but unlike them Kenobi had no weaknesses. And while Windu is inventor of new style, Kenobi is "The Master" of his style concluding that he is the only one capable to take down Grievous in combat.

And Anakin. When he was half restraining himself, Dooku was barely defending himself and was getting Force exhausted. When Anakin completely sucumbed to rage, he finished Dooku, when he decided. Even Yoda and Windu couldn't display such feat against Dooku. And Kenobi leveled fully enraged Anakin.
It probably sounds like ABC logic but book makes Kenobi's performance look way more impressive, than in gcanon.

Sounds cool but Novel portrays every character as enormously impressive. Author puts so much poetry into fights that it feels like every single character experiences Oneness.
Dooku - center of the universe, summoned power from throughout the universe.
Sidious - black hole in the Force.
Anakin - "clarity", despite the fact that he just blatantly got enraged.
Obi-Wan - is who he is, similar to Ganner Rysode.
Windu - chanel of darkness and superconduit loop.
Yoda - fountain of light, avatar of the light.

Emotions portrayal is important but the author completwly overkills it putting so many beautiful words with little to no meaning to it.

And the book has so many contradictions with other canon and puts such importance into Forms that no surprice there was so many debates about it.

He only thought that he tooled them. In reality they "suckered" him by faking their old styles from AotC.

Originally posted by Arhael

He only thought that he tooled them. In reality they "suckered" him by faking their old styles from AotC.

And to what advantage for Kenobi? He was still disposed of by Dooku with near casual ease before Anakin and the Count began their final engagement. What advantage would faking their styles give them?

And in reply to the OP: regarding scenario 2, I see Dooku making it all the way to 8 before falling before the mighty Mace Windu. Vader is... overrated, and I would wager that Dooku's swordplay is significantly superior to Vader's. Also, his FL is a major obstacle to Vader's life support system (ala his death at the hands of Darts Sidious in RotJ).

Casualy? Indeed, Dooku casually handled Kenobi with the Force in film. However, it is not what happened in the book.

Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their hands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their arms; Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room in blinding ricochets.

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.

It is clear that Dooku outwitted them by utilizing droids. Both of them got distracted by droids and Dooku took advantage of it. In normal circumstances Jedi of Kenobi caliber don't receive kick in the face outright on approach.

Vader overrated?
He might have lost his original potential but he isn't any weaker in lightsaber combat. His reaction and anticipation are the same. Indeed, he lost mobility but he compensated it by readjusting his style and benefiting from much greater physical strengh.
Vader and Marek fought evenly. It took Marek utilizng Dun Moch to render Vader's combat performance and getting enraged because of desire to avenge his father.

Dooku wouldn't be able to utilize Dun Moch, he doesn't have Marek's rage and his potential cannot compare to Marek's either.

Moreover there is no reason to assume that Dooku is more skilled combatant, than Marek. Marek drilled lightsaber combat the same way he drilled Force exertions and there was enough time to become pro with lightaber and again his greater potential will give him greater speeds and strength.

Also, Dooku's lightning won't do a thing to Vader, he will
block it with lightsaber as casually as Kenobi, he did block Marek's, who's lightning is more potent.
Vader couldn't do heavy Force exertions like moving star desteoyers and battle meditation as it would put strain on his unhealthy body. However, he still has the same medichlorian count, his Force choke is as potent as it could ever be. Marek got choked but he was able to counter it with Force blast, however, when Dooku got choked by Opress, he couldn't do a thing to escape it.

As example to back up Vader we have Lumya. She stated that she can't be a proper Sith and utilize battle meditation on entire fleets. However, in combat she was as deadly as ever on level with Mara. And neither Luke nor Mara could simply handle her with the Force alone. And she was more of a machine than Vader.

Originally posted by Arhael
Casualy? Indeed, Dooku casually handled Kenobi with the Force in film. However, it is not what happened in the book.

Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their hands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their arms; Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room in blinding ricochets.

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.


The novelization version of the fight is C-Canon (" Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon", whereas the movie is obviously G-Canon. With that being said, the scene depicted above is rendered useless as it is NON-CANON in that it directly contradicts the higher canon source.

I submit exhibit A for reference: LdYzGt19zH0
Originally posted by Arhael
he did block Marek's, who's lightning is more potent.

Really? What evidence do you have that Marek's FL is more potent than Dooku's?

Not to mention that Dooku is one of the best duelists of all time, Marek doesn't compare.




Edit: Damn it, I forgot how to put the slashes in XD

I feel dirty inside.......

I'd say one hour rest is plenty of time to recover, unless he's been severely injured by his previous opponent.

In either case, I believe he doesn't make it past 8. He might not make it past 5 or 6 in scenario 1, if one hour doesn't provide a good enough recovery.

As to the Midi counts the further you go into the ABY books, the more often it is mentioned that significant loss of genetic material weakens one's ability in the force. Lumiya speaks to this over and over pointing out that it was something that both she and Vader had to deal with.

Exactly. That means that if Kenobi hadn't burned the hell out of Vader, removing significant body mass, eventually, he would've become the most powerful ever (as stated by GL).

But even as this happened, Vader is also stated to have been 80% of Sidious, in terms of power, which is considerable.

Wait a second. Me and Jedi Mom were talking about RotS novel and we CAN talk about it because it is EU forum section. If you wasn't gonna talk about the novel, then what was the point arguing my quote?
Fine. CW shows that each character can be caught off guard with Force choke: Kenobi, Ventress, Dooku and even Anakin. That Dooku managed to Force choke Kenobi doesn't make him superior by default and doesn't guaranty that he would be able to perform the same feat in another fight with him. Dooku got pawned by Anakin in gcanon twice. Kenobi put up much better fight, he even displayed equally strong TK to enraged Anakin, which is incredible feat. Yes, ABC logic doesn't work but nevertheless it shows that Obi-Wan wasn't inferior to Dooku both with lightsaber and the Force at the time of RotS, especially, after getting experience from defeating Anakin.


Oh, come on. Lighning strength directly depends on power and anger levels. Marek had enough power to move star destroyers and his rage was on border with madness, obviously his lightning would refect that.
Did Dooku's lightning kill anyone? Ventress and her unknown sisters survived, Oppress and Anakin were only temporarily subdued. Marek killed Shaak Ti with lightning in game. Instantly killled several troopers and destroyed an AT-ST. Killed a rankor. There are plenty more examples, which I am lazy to search. But in any case the facts that Kenobi and Yoda casually blocked Dooku's lightning and that Marek couldn't simply handle Vader with lightning confirms that it is not a game breaking ability.


Doesn't compare? How about Shaak Ti? Council member. One of the finest duelists of her era. The most cunning Jedi of her time. Master of Makashi and Ataru. By the time of TFU by all accounts she became immensly powerful. Turned Felonia into Force nexus. Empowered felonians with Force potential. Casually countered Marek's TK attack. Her death resulted in exploasion similar to Palpatine's. On that planet she was like lightside version of Vitiate. And she lost in lightsaber combat to Marek...
So? Marek's combat still can't compare to Dooku?


And did she ever mentioned that it was greatly affecting her combat prowess? She said that she can't be a proper Sith Lord that could expand battle meditation on entire fleets. However, in
combat she was deadly, rivaling even Mara. At no point Luke or Mara could easily handle her.

^ Kenobi has yet to prove himself a superior swordsman to Ventress, let alone Count Dooku.

As for the novel version of events, he Ko'd Kenobi without using Force TK, so that doesn't exactly help Kenobi's case anyway.

Oh and Mace Windu is the only one to claim that Kenobi is "The Master" of Soresu. And since Windu thinks very highly of Obi-Wan and was prepping him for battle anyway, I'd say his opinion is fallible.

Dooku takes Obi-Wan in Sabers, and he tools him with the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Kenobi has yet to prove himself a superior swordsman to Ventress, let alone Count Dooku.

As for the novel version of events, he Ko'd Kenobi without using Force TK, so that doesn't exactly help Kenobi's case anyway.

Oh and Mace Windu is the only one to claim that Kenobi is "The Master" of Soresu. And since Windu thinks very highly of Obi-Wan and was prepping him for battle anyway, I'd say his opinion is fallible.

Dooku takes Obi-Wan in Sabers, and he tools him with the Force.

I agree. I wonder how he would do against ANH Obi-Wan. He surely can't tool him with the force.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
I agree. I wonder how he would do against ANH Obi-Wan. He surely can't tool him with the force.

Most probably not.

But Old Kenobi seemed rusty in his Fencing skills and seemed physically weak. So I would still put my money on the Count taking the all out without too much difficulty.

Personally, I can see him making it to Vader.

Prove to Ventress? He didn't even take her seriously as evidensed in their 1x1 duel. And she couldn't even strike him down, when he was without lightsaber.
And he never had intent to kill her, disarm at most.

Which he managed to do by distracting Kenobi with droids, which makes the feat entirely circumstantial.


Dooku doesn't take RotS Obi-Wan in Sabers in either source, at no point he overwhelmed him with lightsaber.
When Anakin gets enraged at Dooku, he desides to win but, when he gets enraged at Kenobi, he can't overcome his defenses. There is huge difference in performance, if you haven't noticed.

Originally posted by Arhael
Prove to Ventress? He didn't even take her seriously as evidensed in their 1x1 duel. And she couldn't even strike him down, when he was without lightsaber.

She had an opportunity to kill him but didn't due to PIS. After that fight Ventress has grown stronger and Kenobi has always struggled against her.

He's yet to prove he's her superior.


Originally posted by Arhael
Which he managed to do by distracting Kenobi with droids, which makes the feat entirely circumstantial.

Oh come on. Kenobi can have Anakin helping him, but Dooku can't use a couple of droids?? Besides after the distraction, he went for Anakin first, and then Kenobi. And he attacked after they destroyed the droids. He was just too fast for Kenobi and KO's him.


Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku doesn't take RotS Obi-Wan in Sabers in either source, at no point he overwhelmed him with lightsaber.

Many Saber fights end with a kick(or at least in a physical maneuver (Mace vs Sidious??)

Originally posted by Arhael
When Anakin gets enraged at Dooku, he desides to win but, when he gets enraged at Kenobi, he can't overcome his defenses. There is huge difference in performance, if you haven't noticed.

Teacher vs Student. Knows his weaknesses inside out. Completely different fight. Plus Anakin was much much more conflicted when he fought Obi-Wan.

We've been through this multiple times. Kenobi's no match for Count Dooku.

She had an opportunity to kill him but didn't due to PIS. After that fight Ventress has grown stronger and Kenobi has always struggled against her.

He's yet to prove he's her superior.

The problem is that he never went for a kill against her. His aim was rather to tire her up and disarm. In 1x1 he clearly didn't try to kill her, he didn't even attack back. It would make even less sense, if he went all out, when there is Anakin helping against her.


"under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat."
- Clearly before the droids he couldn't do anything game breaking.

"Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids" - Anakin is distracted.

"Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids." - Kenobi diverted his attention on droids.

"Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion" - He acted in next instance taking advantage of the droids.

"he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick" - He kicked both of them in a single spin, which he managed to do only because of droids. He was nearly Force exhausted and his earlier attempts against Kenobi didn't bring any significant result.


Dooku was too fast for Kenobi? Are you saying he speed blitzed him? First of all he was nearly Force exhausted at that point.
Second, this:
"He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper" - If Dooku was such a superior combatant, why he tried to expose style weakness instead of simply overpowering him? And if he was "too fast" for him, why then Kenobi didn't get overwhelmed by that speed?


To land that kick Windu deflected Sidious' lightsaber away or whatever other move to create an opening for that kick. Dooku simply kicked Obi-Wan on approach. In normal circumstances Jedi/Sith hold their lightsaber at front of them, spin kick is imposible as it would inevitably result in leg being chopped off. Clearly droids droids created that oppening to land a kick.

First, novel didn't state that Kenobi had advantage over Anakin in terms of combat knowledge, which makes your statement only assumption.
It goes either way, Anakin, also, knows Kenobi's weaknesses inside out, and it is not asumption as novel states that they sparred countless times. They both knew each other's moves and weaknesses, however, Kenobi didn't have power of chosen one. So Anakin not only knew all Kenobi's moves as well, he, also, was superior in power.

Second, that Anakin "was much more conflicted" is your another assumption. In fight with Kenobi there is no naration of Anakin's emotions AT ALL.
Moreover, his emotions were conflicting, when fighting with Dooku and it is not assumption.
"The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteorstrike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious." - Dooku barely
holds against Anakin and gets exhausted.

"Skywalker was a natural.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical." - This is prove that Anakin had conflicting emotions, that he was afraid to loose his restrains. Dooku was in desperate situation against restrained Anakin and when he succumbed to his rage, next instance Dooku lost.

However, in fight with Kenobi he did not hold back. He felt betrayed and his intent was nothing less than kill. He was getting angrier and angrier. Clearly there was no restrains, unlike in fight with Dooku. His "fury" was what made him much stronger and he had plenty of it, when fighting Kenobi.


The problem is that you don't give any weight to circumstances and back up your opinion by assumptions. Dooku got overpowered and disarmed by Opress with lightsaber as well as overpowered with the Force by choke. Do we conclude that Opress is superior to Dooku both with lightsaber and power? No. Because there were circumstances of why it happened. And same Opress got his hand chopped, while fighting with brother's help against no one other than Kenobi.

Not to be mean or anything, but I'm pretty sure the RotS novel states that Dooku had only planned one death.

Getting back to the midi counts again, it seems to be something that goes back and fourth in the novels. Over and over Lumiya speaks to the loss of Force ability, but yes, seems to be missing nothing in terms of saber skills. Yet in many other novels the fact that duelists must open themselves to the Force in order to be effective with the saber also comes up repeatedly, with those who are best able to finding themselves overcoming their oponents.

I guess it is a bit murky as to whether simply letting the Force flow in is enough regardless of midi count, but to me it seems that total power in the Force should factor into saber combat.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Really? What evidence do you have that Marek's FL is more potent than Dooku's?

'Automated weapons emplacements spotted him instantly. Red weapons fire stitched lines of explosions across the station's patchwork hull as he ducked between the AT-AT's massive legs. Scooping up components from the nearest construction conveyor belt, he threw a series of high-speed missiles at the turrets, knocking five out of commission. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.

The quartet had already started firing at stormtroopers converging on the scene. A furious exchange of blasterfire painted the air thick with energy. The apprentice deflected anything headed his way as he hacked into the side of the AT-AT and dropped into its munitions bay. The crew within was no threat, killed by the lightning, but he was careful not to knock any of the charges in case their contents had become unstable. He didn't want it to blow up just yet.'


Frying an AT-AT and killing everyone inside >>>> Whatever Dooku's done.

Originally posted by Arhael
The problem is that he never went for a kill against her. His aim was rather to tire her up and disarm. In 1x1 he clearly didn't try to kill her, he didn't even attack back. It would make even less sense, if he went all out, when there is Anakin helping against her.

Kenobi by his style and nature rarely goes for the kill anyway. His is a defensive form. He has to pass her defenses first before he decides if he's going to kill or or just defeat her.

Mace wasn't going for the Kill against Sidious. He was attempting to capture him (until the Force Lightning part).

Skywalker also wasn't going for the kill against Dooku. He just decided to "win" not "kill". Until the Emporer goaded him into killing.

So saying he wasn't going for the "kill" simply isn't an excuse.


Originally posted by Arhael
"under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat."
- Clearly before the droids he couldn't do anything game breaking.

Yeah but he was holding his own against both of them. Kenobi's never been able to hold his own against Dooku let alone Dooku and a second combatant.


Originally posted by Arhael
"he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick" - He kicked both of them in a single spin, which he managed to do only because of droids.

Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.

^ He went for Skywalker first.



Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku was too fast for Kenobi? Are you saying he speed blitzed him? First of all he was nearly Force exhausted at that point.
Second, this:
"He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper" - If Dooku was such a superior combatant, why he tried to expose style weakness instead of simply overpowering him? And if he was "too fast" for him, why then Kenobi didn't get overwhelmed by that speed?

Yes Dooku blitz Kenobi. Your talking about an instance in the fight where Dooku knew it would take some time going blade to blade to penetrate Kenobi's defenses. He couldn't do that while fighting Skywalker as well. Not without a distraction.

Check this out: 0:14-0:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeuRxFiTaww

Have we ever seen Kenobi move that fast?? Nope. Dooku's faster and just plain out better in close combat.



Originally posted by Arhael
To land that kick Windu deflected Sidious' lightsaber away or whatever other move to create an opening for that kick.

First that's not always necessary. Dooku supposedly did a flying kick to Kenobi face. If he was fast enough he could do it, providing Kenobi's Saber wasn't already covering that part of his head.

Second are you suggesting Dooku can't deflect Kenobi's Saber aside to create an opening?? The movie completely disagrees with you if that's what you think:

Go to 0:48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdYzGt19zH0

Originally posted by Arhael
First, novel didn't state that Kenobi had advantage over Anakin in terms of combat knowledge, which makes your statement only assumption.
It goes either way, Anakin, also, knows Kenobi's weaknesses inside out, and it is not asumption as novel states that they sparred countless times. They both knew each other's moves and weaknesses, however, Kenobi didn't have power of chosen one. So Anakin not only knew all Kenobi's moves as well, he, also, was superior in power.

The novel states they both knew each others moves inside out which is what made them so equal. The same isn't true for Dooku and Obi-Wan.

Also common sense tells us the teacher would always be more aware and able to exploit his student's weaknesses than the other way around.

Since Obi-Wan never taught Dooku and never spent thousands of hours sparring him, it's clearly a completely different fight which can not be compared in any shape or form.

Originally posted by Arhael
Second, that Anakin "was much more conflicted" is your another assumption. In fight with Kenobi there is no naration of Anakin's emotions AT ALL.
Moreover, his emotions were conflicting, when fighting with Dooku and it is not assumption.

Lol exactly what was he conflicted about in fighting Count Dooku??

Are you suggesting there was any part of him that did not want to defeat Count Dooku??

Dooku struggled against his blows, but he had to fight off Kenobi for most the fight as well.

He could have possibly out maneuvered the holding back Anakin in a one on one.

But the fact is Anakin did not actually "beat" Dooku until he "decided to win" and had a pristine clarity. A clarity he didn't have while fighting Obi-Wan. It would be completely absurd to assume Anakin has that same pristine clarity while fighting his former brother.



Originally posted by Arhael
The problem is that you don't give any weight to circumstances and back up your opinion by assumptions. Dooku got overpowered and disarmed by Opress with lightsaber as well as overpowered with the Force by choke. Do we conclude that Opress is superior to Dooku both with lightsaber and power? No. Because there were circumstances of why it happened. And same Opress got his hand chopped, while fighting with brother's help against no one other than Kenobi.

What are you talking about?? I've backed everything up with facts. Your the one assuming Skywalker was in the same state of mind when he fought Dooku and Obi-Wan, which frankly is an absurd assumption considering the events of the movie.

Your also the one ignoring background and cirsumstances, like the fact Obi-wan fighting the man he tutored is completely different to Obi-Wan fighting Count Dooku.

Your whole argument is based on how well Obi-wan did against his former student which is a flawed one in the first place.

Because the fact is Obi-Wan has nothing else on his record to put him in Count Dooku's league.

As for Opress flooring and choking Dooku, well Dooku had his attention on Ventress simultaneously. Whilst every time Kenobi has fought Dooku he's only ever had to concentrate on Dooku.

So that example is again flawed.

Kenobi by his style and nature rarely goes for the kill anyway. So why then bringing Ventress as example? He didn't even try to strike her back. He was holding his lightsaber in one hand, when he has no experience in Makashi. When she disarmed him, he didn't even flinch and had only mild amusement. Dodged all her attacks and got his lightsaber back. ALL her attempts failed and she ran away.


So did Ventress BEFORE Kenobi engaged her 1x1, where he was clearly mocking her.


And does it prove that Kenobi readjusted his attention from droids to Dooku by that moment? Remember: "Before their pieces could even hit the floor" - Dooku's kick continuation was blinding fast, moment of distraction was all he needed.

No he doesn't. He was not faster than Kenobi. He failed to blitz Kenobi with Sabers. He was getting overwhelmed by both speed and power of Anakin's attack, while Kenobi wasn't. You said yourself that it would take Dooku "some time" to penetrate Kenobi's defences and he managed to distract Anakin more than ones. And after droids distraction he suddenly gets OMG speed that he can simply kick Kenobi on approach? Sorry, but what you are trying to claim makes no sense.

Dooku was slower, than Anakin, while Kenobi wasn't. And there is no way around it.


Providing that he was not fast enough as covered above.

We are arguing book. In film the kick never happened, therefore whether he could kick Kenobi in film or not is a wasting speculation.

The style knowledge made them equal in skill. But it never made Obi-Wan equally powerful and strong, which gives Anakin huge advantage.

Common sense is that nearly every time fallen student defeats teacher simply because teacher is heart broken. Also, Kenobi had nothing new to teach Anakin. Also, in book the only weakness he exploited was prosthetic arm but it didn't give him any advantage during actual lightsaber combat.
Also, I don't agree with your common sense. On my training, when I was still considered beginner, in competition with one high grade student I overpowered him with strength. On competition with another high grade who, also, did gym for many years, I speed blitzed him and choked.

And clearly Kenobi Dooku before but Dooku never fought Krnobi with his Soresu style. Definately different fight with Kenobi having advantage.

Lol. You view things as black and white. Anakin was half restraining himself and trying to control his fury because of fear as stated by Dooku, it is clear conflict of his emotions.

Possibility of Dooku out maneuvering Anakin becomes meaningless, if we consider their previous fight, where Dooku utilized his TK to full extend, got disarmed and ran away.


Prove he didn't have that clarity.
Not by assumptions
That "pristine clarity" was that he did not need to hold back anymore. You give too much weight to poetry, read this:
"And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy" - Anakin won beause he succumbed to his rage, it is not some sort of unique state. And stop assuming about what Anakin had or hadn't during fight with Kenobi. He was consumed by his rage and there was clear intent to kill and no holding back. In both cases no "Jedi restraint".


Anakin got enraged, when fought Dooku. He got enraged even more, when fighting Kenobi. Rage is what makes him more powerful and why he overpowered Dooku. So what exactly I am assuming? You assume that Anakin's combat performance was weaker than in fight with Dooku and you have NOTHING SUBSTANTIAL to back up your assumption with.

Both have knowledge against each other, therefore neither benefits but only Anakin gets HUGE power advantage.

My whole argument is based on what Obi-Wan actually did. Your argument is based on assuming why it is not impressive that Kenobi defeated Anakin.

Really? How about new book, where Kenobi fighting both Maul and Opress chopped arm off Opress and they both ran away? While Dooku, when fighting Opress and Ventress got disarmed and even got Force choked after.

No it's not because Kenobi, also, got distracted by droids.

This is at the point of stupidity.

Originally posted by Nephthys
'Automated weapons emplacements spotted him instantly. Red weapons fire stitched lines of explosions across the station's patchwork hull as he ducked between the AT-AT's massive legs. Scooping up components from the nearest construction conveyor belt, he threw a series of high-speed missiles at the turrets, knocking five out of commission. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.

The quartet had already started firing at stormtroopers converging on the scene. A furious exchange of blasterfire painted the air thick with energy. The apprentice deflected anything headed his way as he hacked into the side of the AT-AT and dropped into its munitions bay. The crew within was no threat, killed by the lightning, but he was careful not to knock any of the charges in case their contents had become unstable. He didn't want it to blow up just yet.'


Frying an AT-AT and killing everyone inside >>>> Whatever Dooku's done.

The responsibility is on you to provide PROOF (or at the very least, significantly compelling evidence) that Dooku CANNOT utilize FL to the extent that GM has. You have provided evidence of GM's proficiency w/ FL (which doesn't necessarily equate to Dooku being unable to match that), but nothing at all indicating that Dooku is unable to do the same. Now once again... PROVE TO ME that GM's FL is >>>> than Dooku's.

Remember, just because it is unwritten (or is it?) doesn't mean that the subject in question cannot achieve similar results. And this is FAR from the same thing as being prompted to prove a negative.

Originally posted by Arhael
So why then bringing Ventress as example? He didn't even try to strike her back. He was holding his lightsaber in one hand, when he has no experience in Makashi. When she disarmed him, he didn't even flinch and had only mild amusement. Dodged all her attacks and got his lightsaber back. ALL her attempts failed and she ran away.


So did Ventress BEFORE Kenobi engaged her 1x1, where he was clearly mocking her.


???

When Kenobi actually defeats Ventress then you'll have an argument. In the mean time all we have is Ventress disarming Kenobi twice. The first time she could have killed him but didn't due to some serious CIS. The second she had him knocked on the floor weaponless, and needed Anakin to save his ass.


Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku was slower, than Anakin, while Kenobi wasn't. And there is no way around it.

Really?? Then how was Dooku able to take on 2 combatants who were both faster than him I wonder??

Re-Watch the scene from CW I posted on Dooku's speed. Obi-Wan's never moved that fast. End of.




Originally posted by Arhael
We are arguing book. In film the kick never happened, therefore whether he could kick Kenobi in film or not is a wasting speculation.

Lol He deflected both Obi-Wan and Anakin's Sabers back, kicked Anakin while simultaneously choking Obi-Wan.. And after watching that scene you honestly think Dooku couldn't kick Obi-Wan in a one on one??

The fact is he penetrated Obi-Wan's Saber defense in that scene. So anything the novel says which contradicts that is non-canon.



Originally posted by Arhael
Prove he didn't have that clarity.

Oh I dunno, maybe the fact he said to Obi-Wan "Don't make me destroy you", does that sound like clarity in defeating Obi-Wan. Or Force choking his wife whose life he was trying to save.. Does that seem like clarity? Or crying while murdering the seperatists. Does that seem like a clear head to you??

The fact is he had that "pristine clarity" in a rare moment. It's you who would have to prove he repeated that rarity.


Originally posted by Arhael
Really? How about new book, where Kenobi fighting both Maul and Opress chopped arm off Opress and they both ran away? While Dooku, when fighting Opress and Ventress got disarmed and even got Force choked after.



Using an unpublished material as proof of anything is desperate.

Use that evidence when the final canon episode airs. In the mean time use something else.

In book he was out maneuvering them to fight one at a time. In film there wasn't much fight before he Force choked Kenobi. In either case he did not overwhelmed Kenobi with lightsaber.
Also, it is not something extra ordinary to defend against two at the same time. Maul defended against Qui-Gon and Kenobi simultaniously and, yet, each of those two had equal speed, when fought Maul separately. Same for Ventress - fought both at the same time and even Force choked them, yet, couldn't defeat either of them separately.


Re-watched. Anakin didn't care. Anakin vs Kenobi fight proves that they had equal speed and reaction whether you like it or not. And if we compare speed by videos, Anakin's fight with Kenobi was much faster and more intensive.

With lightsaber combat no. With Force attacks yes, after fight with Anakin unlikely.

No, at no point he penetrated Kenobi's lightsaber defense.


Ohh... In fight with Dooku he had Jedi restraint on and Dooku feared that he would lose it. When he lost the restraint by getting enraged, Dokku lost. In fight with Kenobi he had no Jedi restraint and was much more enraged. Stick to your "Pristine clarity" as much as you want, you still can't prove that Anakin fought less effectively against Kenobi.


Not published yet? Sorry. I guess those actual quotes were just from some random fan-fic, not from upcoming novel.

Wrong. You should read "Cestus Deception".



Film is higher source of canon then book. And in the film he easily aout maneuvering both of them. Watch this fight again man...
ah, and look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIe2A-SnXlY

Anakin gets kick in the face, Kenobi gets force push. After few secounds Anakin gets another kick, and Kenobi gets OMGWTF KO by force TK. Maul needs those laser walls to separated jedi. Dooku not.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKc2-CQjgJQ

He's really superior to them...

Ok, how you can see Kenobi was unable (at this moment, coz season 5 its not published yet) to fight both Maul and Opress. He was also unable to catch Opress twice (twice with Anakin). He lost to Dooku (even when he has Anakin on his side). He also can't defeat Maul and Opress even with Ventress on his side.

And now look at Dooku:
Dooku was able to fight (and finally won) Ventress and 2 nightsisters, while being poisoned.
Dooku was able to hold his own against Ventress and Savage.
Dooku already won against Sora Bulq and Tholme.
Dooku just destroyed Ventress, when she fights him alone.



He already prove it... You just do not understand.

Originally posted by Arhael
In book he was out maneuvering them to fight one at a time. In film there wasn't much fight before he Force choked Kenobi. In either case he did not overwhelmed Kenobi with lightsaber.
Also, it is not something extra ordinary to defend against two at the same time. Maul defended against Qui-Gon and Kenobi simultaniously and, yet, each of those two had equal speed, when fought Maul separately. Same for Ventress - fought both at the same time and even Force choked them, yet, couldn't defeat either of them separately.

Fighting 2 opponents off with a SINGLE Saber is Impressive and proves at least some superiority (probably in speed and skill).

Maul used a double saber to fight off Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. And Maul by all accounts was faster than those 2 anyway.

Ventress has always fought them both off with Twin Sabers only. Never with a Single Saber.


Originally posted by Arhael
With lightsaber combat no. With Force attacks yes, after fight with Anakin unlikely.

No, at no point he penetrated Kenobi's lightsaber defense.

What fight were you watching?? He was outclassing both Anakin and Obi-Wan together in Saber combat. Yes he needed to use the force to seperate them as he likely couldn't continue to outclass or match them both TOGETHER.

Watch the force choke scene again. Put it in slow motion. Watch it very carefully and you will see:

Dooku hits both Obi-Wan and Anakin's Sabers aside leaving them both open for an attack. He kicks Anakin (to the other side of the room mind you), but CHOOSES to force choke Obi-Wan. It doesn't mean that was his ONLY option on Obi-Wan. It was just the most effiecient thing to do in the scenario.

Fact is if Anakin wasn't there Dooku would have destroyed Obi-Wan in a one on one even without Force Choke (based on that showing).



Originally posted by Arhael
Not published yet? Sorry. I guess those actual quotes were just from some random fan-fic, not from upcoming novel.

Until we see the episode we don't know the circumstances surrounding the scene, or if it will even play out like that.

Just look at how different the ROTS movie fights are compared to the Novel versions!

But as Zett has already pointed out it was made clear in the last episode that Obi-Wan was no match for Maul and Savage together. Heck Maul didn't even enter the fight before Savage disarmed him. Obi-Wan just watching out for Maul was more than enough for Savage to soundly disarm and beat him within a few seconds.

It would be too huge a change and completely inconsistent if now suddenly Obi-Wan can outclass both these 2 beasts together in combat (without some kind of outside circumstances being involved).

Whilst Dooku has already shown he can single handidly fight off Savage and Ventress together. Heck he fought off Ventress and 2 other nightsisters blind!

That's way beyond anything we've seen from Obi-Wan's swordplay. Like ever!

And since you can't prove in any way whatsoever that "the opening" would be enough to do successive strike, which Kenobi will not have time to block or dodge, it means absolutely nothing. You can't prove, if Force choke was the only option or it wasn't.

Fact is Dooku defeated Kenobi with TK, not with sabers.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The responsibility is on you to provide PROOF (or at the very least, significantly compelling evidence) that Dooku CANNOT utilize FL to the extent that GM has. You have provided evidence of GM's proficiency w/ FL (which doesn't necessarily equate to Dooku being unable to match that), but nothing at all indicating that Dooku is unable to do the same. Now once again... PROVE TO ME that GM's FL is >>>> than Dooku's.

Remember, just because it is unwritten (or is it?) doesn't mean that the subject in question cannot achieve similar results. And this is FAR from the same thing as being prompted to prove a negative.

Not how it works. GM lightning feats are greater than Dooku's. Therefore, one can reasonably assume that GM's lightning is greater at least in the scope of a forum fight.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The responsibility is on you to provide PROOF (or at the very least, significantly compelling evidence) that Dooku CANNOT utilize FL to the extent that GM has. You have provided evidence of GM's proficiency w/ FL (which doesn't necessarily equate to Dooku being unable to match that), but nothing at all indicating that Dooku is unable to do the same. Now once again... PROVE TO ME that GM's FL is >>>> than Dooku's.

Remember, just because it is unwritten (or is it?) doesn't mean that the subject in question cannot achieve similar results. And this is FAR from the same thing as being prompted to prove a negative.

Uh, not it isn't. I don't have to prove that someone can't do something. Thats impossible. You might as well ask me to prove that Dooku can't play the banjo. If you want something indicating that he'd be unable to do the same then the only thing that I should need is the absence of him performing anything close to that level of power. The absence of him doing it is proof enough.

And yeah, it is the same thing as proving a negative.

Originally posted by Arhael
And since you can't prove in any way whatsoever that "the opening" would be enough to do successive strike, which Kenobi will not have time to block or dodge, it means absolutely nothing. You can't prove, if Force choke was the only option or it wasn't.

Because he created Exactly the same opening against Anakin at Exactly the same time, and kicked him to the other side of the room.

That kick alone shows how hopelessly outmatched Obi-Wan would be against Dooku in an all out one on one close combat, since Obi-Wan was never able to display a kick anywhere as powerful against Anakin (or against anyone for that matter).

Considering Maul, Ventress, Anakin have all been able to kick Obi-Wan mid-saber fight, I don't what on Earth makes you think Dooku couldn't lay one of his Uber-Powerful Kicks, especially when he created a clear opening to do so, but chose to land it on Anakin instead (the bigger threat to Dooku in that fight).

Originally posted by Arhael
Fact is Dooku defeated Kenobi with TK, not with sabers.

Fact is Dooku was humiliating both Anakin and Obi-Wan together up until and including the Force Choke.

Originally posted by Arhael
Wait a second. Me and Jedi Mom were talking about RotS novel and we CAN talk about it because it is EU forum section. If you wasn't gonna talk about the novel, then what was the point arguing my quote?
Fine. CW shows that each character can be caught off guard with Force choke: Kenobi, Ventress, Dooku and even Anakin. That Dooku managed to Force choke Kenobi doesn't make him superior by default and doesn't guaranty that he would be able to perform the same feat in another fight with him. Dooku got pawned by Anakin in gcanon twice. Kenobi put up much better fight, he even displayed equally strong TK to enraged Anakin, which is incredible feat. Yes, ABC logic doesn't work but nevertheless it shows that Obi-Wan wasn't inferior to Dooku both with lightsaber and the Force at the time of RotS, especially, after getting experience from defeating Anakin.


Oh, come on. Lighning strength directly depends on power and anger levels. Marek had enough power to move star destroyers and his rage was on border with madness, obviously his lightning would refect that.
Did Dooku's lightning kill anyone? Ventress and her unknown sisters survived, Oppress and Anakin were only temporarily subdued. Marek killed Shaak Ti with lightning in game. Instantly killled several troopers and destroyed an AT-ST. Killed a rankor. There are plenty more examples, which I am lazy to search. But in any case the facts that Kenobi and Yoda casually blocked Dooku's lightning and that Marek couldn't simply handle Vader with lightning confirms that it is not a game breaking ability.

Doesn't compare? How about Shaak Ti? Council member. One of the finest duelists of her era. The most cunning Jedi of her time. Master of Makashi and Ataru. By the time of TFU by all accounts she became immensly powerful. Turned Felonia into Force nexus. Empowered felonians with Force potential. Casually countered Marek's TK attack. Her death resulted in exploasion similar to Palpatine's. On that planet she was like lightside version of Vitiate. And she lost in lightsaber combat to Marek...
So? Marek's combat still can't compare to Dooku?

And did she ever mentioned that it was greatly affecting her combat prowess? She said that she can't be a proper Sith Lord that could expand battle meditation on entire fleets. However, in
combat she was deadly, rivaling even Mara. At no point Luke or Mara could easily handle her.

Did you just compare Shaak Ti to Vitiate? Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Shaak Ti was a skilled swordsman, but she got tooled by GG during the CW.

Yeah that's a bit hyperbolic. She's not that good. All she did was throw some plants at him and control a Saarlac.

Because he created Exactly the same opening against Anakin at Exactly the same time, and kicked him to the other side of the room.

That kick alone shows how hopelessly outmatched Obi-Wan would be against Dooku in an all out one on one close combat, since Obi-Wan was never able to display a kick anywhere as powerful against Anakin (or against anyone for that matter).

Considering Maul, Ventress, Anakin have all been able to kick Obi-Wan mid-saber fight, I don't what on Earth makes you think Dooku couldn't lay one of his Uber-Powerful Kicks, especially when he created a clear opening to do so, but chose to land it on Anakin instead (the bigger threat to Dooku in that fight).

In CW he was getting kicked by Maul's cybernetic legs and after those kicks engaged Oppress with lightsaber. In movie Kenobi got kicked by Anakin and even disarmed him. Even if Dooku kicked Kenobi instead, it doesn't guaranty him losing.


I didn't mean to make her look like Vitiate. Only that she wasn't weakling, who Marek could handle with Force alone.
My point is that Marek drilled lightsaber combat from childhood. On top of that his potential is higher, than Dooku's and not by a small margin. With both this facts he is very skilled combatant like Dooku and superior in power, which puts him above Dooku in both lightsaber combat and the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
In CW he was getting kicked by Maul's cybernetic legs and after those kicks engaged Oppress with lightsaber. In movie Kenobi got kicked by Anakin and even disarmed him.

He also got kicked and disarmed by Ventress.

Originally posted by Arhael
Even if Dooku kicked Kenobi instead, it doesn't guaranty him losing.



Considering how powerful Dooku's kick on Anakin was, it's just another advantage for Dooku. I'm still not seeing where Kenobi's advantage is.

Kenobi's in Ventress's league Imho. That's not bad, not bad at all. Ventress is tough, more powerful than the majority of Jedi.

Kenobi may even be a little above Ventress, but he's clearly not out of her league. Dooku clearly is.

Well we do know that Kenobi>>Savage.

Originally posted by ares834
Well we do know that Kenobi>>Savage.

Screw you!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He also got kicked and disarmed by Ventress.



Considering how powerful Dooku's kick on Anakin was, it's just another advantage for Dooku. I'm still not seeing where Kenobi's advantage is.

Kenobi's in Ventress's league Imho. That's not bad, not bad at all. Ventress is tough, more powerful than the majority of Jedi.

Kenobi may even be a little above Ventress, but he's clearly not out of her league. Dooku clearly is.
I was about to continue arguing but amended myself. Because we are practicing Vaapad. We keep go through the same superconduit of opinions on me impressed over Kenobi's performance against Anakin and you unimpressed with Kenobi's being Force choked or kicked by Dooku.
Impasse.

No worries.

But just one thing for you to think about Arhael..

If the Anakin who tooled Dooku was Kenobi's equal, then why couldn't/didn't Count Dooku just Force Choke Anakin like he did to Kenobi, instead of getting his hands chopped off??

I know we've reached an Impasse, but it's just food for thought for you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No worries.

But just one thing for you to think about Arhael..

If the Anakin who tooled Dooku was Kenobi's equal, then why couldn't/didn't Count Dooku just Force Choke Anakin like he did to Kenobi, instead of getting his hands chopped off??

I know we've reached an Impasse, but it's just food for thought for you.

He didn't want to kill Anakin.

The answer is rather obvious - superior power gives superior Force defences.
And I was talking about Kenobi as equal only in terms of combat. He matched his speed and strength. And because he is so less powerful, I would say that he is more talented/skilled fencer.

As for TK I would give two interpretions.
In film their direct TK contest was draw, which is very strange considering Anakin's superior power comined with rage level. Either Kenobi was driven beyond limits due to circumstances or Anakin simply wasn't, yet, very skilled with offensive TK.
But in book everything makes sense. Anakin Force blasts Kenobi and "he is half stunned" and saves his ass only by subtle manipulation on Anakin's proesthetic arm.

Also, Dooku still could possibly handle Anakin with TK but it wasn't his goal. But in book by the time he realised how badly he underestimated Anakin, he is too tired to try anything like that.


Thanks for feeding!

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
He didn't want to kill Anakin. That's not about kill. TK is nowhere near as lethal as lightsaber. By engaging Anakin in combat there was much higher chance of inflicting serious or even lethal damage to him.

His aim was to kill Kenobi, yet, engaging him with lightsaber, while TK handling Anakin would be plain fail.
Because of Kenobi's defencive style it would be nearly impossible to out duel him and would be way too long. At the same time Anakin is too powerful to be handled by TK, he would keep coming or resist it entirely like in CW.

He chose to fight Anakin because he is not skilled enough to defeat him outright and Kenobi is much more vulnerable to TK. So while fighting Anakin, Dooku Force blasted Kenobi, then delayed with droids and finally Force choked him. Clearly Dooku excels in tactics. He knows that one is strong with lightsaber but weak in the Force but another is strong in the Force but weak with lightsaber.

Originally posted by Arhael
Clearly Dooku excels in tactics. He knows that one is strong with lightsaber but weak in the Force but another is strong in the Force but weak with lightsaber.
LOL at Anakin being weak with a lightsaber...

Originally posted by Arhael
The answer is rather obvious - superior power gives superior Force defences.
And I was talking about Kenobi as equal only in terms of combat. He matched his speed and strength. And because he is so less powerful, I would say that he is more talented/skilled fencer.

As for TK I would give two interpretions.
In film their direct TK contest was draw, which is very strange considering Anakin's superior power comined with rage level. Either Kenobi was driven beyond limits due to circumstances or Anakin simply wasn't, yet, very skilled with offensive TK.
But in book everything makes sense. Anakin Force blasts Kenobi and "he is half stunned" and saves his ass only by subtle manipulation on Anakin's proesthetic arm.

Also, Dooku still could possibly handle Anakin with TK but it wasn't his goal. But in book by the time he realised how badly he underestimated Anakin, he is too tired to try anything like that.


Thanks for feeding!

If the Anakin who defeated Dooku was the same Anakin who fought Obi-Wan (in terms of power and competency) then he was equal to Obi-Wan in the Force. They stalemated their force push contest, and they both went flying back equally. So there force attack and defenses were on the same level.

I.e. A level way beyond Count Dooku's, which then would not make sense as to why Dooku lost to Anakin when he was clearly able to handle Obi-Wan so ridiculously easily.

You know you actually made a good point. We both argued biased towards the one we support but I now have third interpretation. Kenobi and Dooku in sabers are more or less equal. Dooku's TK was superior than both of them. And Anakin's TK even weaker than Kenobi's. By getting enraged he equaled Dooku in combat but couldn't overpower him, however, he utilized grappling technique which Dooku as pure fencer simply couldn't counter. Similarly by getting enraged he equaled Kenobi both in combat and TK but here knowledge about each other come into play. Unlike Dooku Kenobi apart from fencing is skilled unarmed combatant, so when it came to grappling Anakin couldn't win him.
Another theory is that Kenobi's combat and TK was even shittier than Anakin's but fear for Padme's life gave Kenobi immense power and purpose to equal even enraged Anakin.

As compromise you can choose second theory and I will stick with first one.

@Arhael
All of your three theories have some nice points. But they have bad points either.
I like this one:
The answer is rather obvious - superior power gives superior Force defences.
Or this one...
In film their direct TK contest was draw, which is very strange considering Anakin's superior power comined with rage level. Either Kenobi was driven beyond limits due to circumstances or Anakin simply wasn't, yet, very skilled with offensive TK.

My interpretation is similar. And i think, that Anakin and Obi-Wan - as a jedi - were better at defensive force powers. So maybe Anakin's offensive push was a little worse then Kenobi's defensive.

I've also agree with that:
By getting enraged he equaled Dooku in combat but couldn't overpower him, however, he utilized grappling technique which Dooku as pure fencer simply couldn't counter.
Unlike Dooku Kenobi apart from fencing is skilled unarmed combatant, so when it came to grappling Anakin couldn't win him.

Anyway, you should accepted just one fact: Kenobi was'nt as skilled swordsman as Dooku and Anakin.
He defeated Anakin not becouse of his superior skill, but becouse of his inteligence and calm. They (Anakin and Obi-Wan) perfectly knows each other, but Anakin's state of mind gives this advantage to Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan was also Soresu master, which maybe was the best form, to counter Anakin's powerful attacks.

Agree, he defeated Anakin with positional advantage. Luke with all his inexperience overcame Vader's defenses by getting angered. As for state of mind we can only guess. Normally it is actually teacher gets heart broken and can't fight properly because of that. And again it is proven that rage gives huge boost especially in terms of strength, I am surprised that Obi-Wan was capable to block his attacks at all, not to mention that it did not tire him up fast. Luke with all his inexperience overcame Vader's defenses by getting angered. Either Kenobi had superior skill as compensation for lack of power or as I said driven beyond limits.

I, also, have another observation. Normally Kenobi doesn't look like he takes things seriously. He is too smug, relaxed and overconfident. Just look at his fight with Ventress, he nearly got killed cos of his stupidity. And that phrase to Palpatine in RotS: "The Sith Lords are our specialty! disgust". It just obviates that he gonna get pawned for his arrogance. Maybe we simply see him taking matters seriously at last. In any case I don't really care anymore. I simply believe that, if Dooku doesn't use on him TK, it will take him ages to penetrate Kenobi's defenses, which for me is the same as neither is better.

Originally posted by Zett

My interpretation is similar. And i think, that Anakin and Obi-Wan - as a jedi - were better at defensive force powers. So maybe Anakin's offensive push was a little worse then Kenobi's defensive.

Except this: "OBI-WAN puts out his hand to use the Force to push ANAKIN away. ANAKIN puts out his hand to block OBI-WAN."

-STAR WARS EPISODE 3: REVENGE OF THE SITH SCRIPT

George Lucas


^^^^^^G-Canon.

Obi Wan was clearly the one attempting the Force Push, while Anakin was blocking/attempting to block Kenobi from doing so.

Originally posted by Arhael


I, also, have another observation. Normally Kenobi doesn't look like he takes things seriously. He is too smug, relaxed and overconfident. Just look at his fight with Ventress, he nearly got killed cos of his stupidity. And that phrase to Palpatine in RotS: "The Sith Lords are our specialty! disgust". It just obviates that he gonna get pawned for his arrogance. Maybe we simply see him taking matters seriously at last.

You might be right about Ventress, he seems to have a soft spot for her.

But I seriously doubt he didn't take guys like Count Dooku, CW Darth Maul, Savage Opress seriously.

He's also not known for being arrogant. I just think it's his style to act calm like there's nothing to worry about.

Originally posted by Arhael
In any case I don't really care anymore. I simply believe that, if Dooku doesn't use on him TK, it will take him ages to penetrate Kenobi's defenses, which for me is the same as neither is better.

Well at least you agree it would be a good sword fight now (which I never disputed, I just think Dooku would win).

The impression you were giving before was you think Obi-Wan would beat Dooku as badly as Anakin did, just because Obi-Wan beat Anakin.

But A>B>C arguments like that rarely work. And less so when someone as unpredictable as Anakin is involved.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Except this: "OBI-WAN puts out his hand to use the Force to push ANAKIN away. ANAKIN puts out his hand to block OBI-WAN."

-STAR WARS EPISODE 3: REVENGE OF THE SITH SCRIPT

George Lucas


^^^^^^G-Canon.

Obi Wan was clearly the one attempting the Force Push, while Anakin was blocking/attempting to block Kenobi from doing so.

Obviously I would be biased and arguing that Kenobi is above Dooku in lightsabers as you did the same with Dooku.

In reality even if Dooku is above in lightsabers and his lightsaber skill is indeed more versatile. But during fight there are so many variables that even weaker one could win. And I hope you will agree that Dooku's assumed superiority would be minimal enough to assume that Kenobi has at least small chance of winning.

Originally posted by Arhael
Obviously I would be biased and arguing that Kenobi is above Dooku in lightsabers as you did the same with Dooku.

In reality even if Dooku is above in lightsabers and his lightsaber skill is indeed more versatile. But during fight there are so many variables that even weaker one could win. And I hope you will agree that Dooku's assumed superiority would be minimal enough to assume that Kenobi has at least small chance of winning.

Yeah I suppose seen as they seem to be making CW Obi-Wan almost a match for CW Maul then I doubt Count Dooku would be miles ahead of ROTS Obi-Wan (in Sabers).