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Sith Emperor is a threat to entire galaxy. Mara fears for safety and future well being of her son. Luke is reluctant to take imidiate action due to conflicting emotions. She makes full preparation both combat wise and knowledge wise. She infiltrates Vitiate's citadel. Sneaks up on throne entrance guards and incapatitates them. Knowing about Vitiate's dominating powers she puts her mental defenses on and enters the throne room. Vitiate aware of her presense waited for her.
FIGHT!

Jacen may have won in by whack means, but if he takes her and she was taxed against Lumiya there's no way she wins this. The only reason I think she would have gotten Palp was that she was his Hand and could get close without being suspected until it was too late.

She goes down hard, albeit in a fight that would have been worthy of her death.

It's not about Palp. Sith Emperor is Vitiate from TOR game, although, similar to Palp in capabilities but with no lightsaber skills.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vitiate aware of her presense waited for her.

Spite.

I'd be hesitant to back anyone beating a fully prepared Emperor.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's not about Palp. Sith Emperor is Vitiate from TOR game, although, similar to Palp in capabilities but with no lightsaber skills.
I was saying that she couldn't have even taken Palpatine outright, nor the Sith Emperor from the game.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I was saying that she couldn't have even taken Palpatine outright, nor the Sith Emperor from the game.
Erm... She never fought Palpatine and neither was in her prime during his reign.

*sighs* I don't recall saying that she fought him. I mean that she stated that there were many times she thought she should have killed him off because of her growing awareness of his tyranny, something that she could have accomplished because of her position as his Hand, though it seems unlikely that she could have managed to do so in outright combat. She did not have the capabilities to kill Palpatine in saber and Force battles, nor could she take the Sith Emperor. Hope that's clear enough.

Her only shot would be if she was given the chance to assassinate (since, y'know, she's a trained assassin jedi).

I am not surprised that people tend to underestimate Mara Jade. In Mara vs Palpatine thread some people were so biased that assumed Palpatine would easily handle her with TK or lightning, or even speed blitzed her.

But few people know or remember that in her early career, when she just met Luke and wanted to kill him, she faced an extrimely powerful Force user very similar to Palpatine and Vitiate and at that point her power and Force knowledge was very inferior comparing to her later years. His name is Joruus C'baot.

Here is example of C'baot's lightning:
"Luke leaped toward her. C'baoth's outstretched hand erupted into a brilliant blaze of blue-white lightning.

The blast caught Mara square in the chest, throwing her backward to slam into the guardrail behind her. "Stop it!" Luke shouted, getting in front of her and igniting his lightsaber. C'baoth ignored him, firing a second burst. Luke caught most of it on his lightsaber blade, grimacing as the part he missed jolted through his muscles. C'baoth fired a third burst, and a fourth, and a fifth—

And then, abruptly, he lowered his hands."
It's not a first time Luke blocked lightning and still he couldn't block it completly as part of it went through.
Mara had only very short exposure to it and here are consequences:
"She was still pretty much on her feet, clutching the guardrail for support. Her eyes were open but not fully aware, her breath making little moaning sounds as she exhaled between clenched teeth. Laying his free hand on her shoulder, wincing at the stink of ozone, Luke began a quick probe of her injuries.
...
None of her burns seemed too bad, but her muscles were still twitching uncontrollably. Reaching out with the Force, he tried to draw away some of the pain."

Luke after some fight with his clone:
"He raised his eyes. Mara was still leaning against the guardrail. Possibly not fully conscious. Certainly in no shape to travel." - She was out of action bigger part of Luke's fight with the clone and it is only after couple of seconds of his lightning, if not less.


Quotes about his mental powers:
" "I have done it, Jedi Skywalker," he whispered, his eyes glittering in the dim light. "With General Covell. What even the Emperor never did. I took his mind in my hands and altered it. Re-formed it and rebuilt it into my own image."

"But unlike the Emperor, he was not going to be content merely with the control of worlds and armies. His would be a more personal form of empire: minds re-formed and rebuilt into his own conception of what a mind should be."

C'baot took concept of mind domination beyond Palpatine and Vitiate. Normally mind domination is just strong mind influence. It could be broken through conviencing or mental influence of others, some characters could break from it even themselves. But C'baot wasn't just crushing will and force others do what he wants, he was restructuring and reshaping minds in his own image. Luke's clone did not have any memories at all but he made out of him very skilled combatant, who was giving hard time even to real Luke.

"Mara bit out, shaking her head to try and clear it. Between her own memories, an echo of the strange buzzing pressure she was picking up from Skywalker's mind, and C'baoth's overbearing presence two meters away, trying to hang on to a line of thought was like trying to fly an airspeeder in a winter windstorm.

But there was a mental pattern the Emperor had taught her long ago, a pattern for those times when he'd wanted his instructions hidden even from Vader. If she could just clear her mind enough to get it in place—

Through the turmoil came a sudden jolt of pain. "Do not attempt to hide your thoughts from me, Mara Jade," C'baoth admonished her sharply. "You are mine now. It is not right for an apprentice to hide her thoughts from her master."

"So I'm already your apprentice, huh?" Mara growled, gritting her teeth against the pain and making another try at the pattern. This time, she made it.
...
watching his face and listening to the turmoil in her mind. Yes; the barrier seemed to be keeping C'baoth back. Now if she could just hold on to that privacy a little longer . . ."" - This both is a prove that C'Baot has immense mental strength and that Mara could put up an effective mental barrier that would prevent any sort of mind invasion.

If someone still thinks that C'baot's offensive mental powers can't compare to Vitiate's, here is what happened later:
"And C'baoth went berserk.

He screamed, a horrible shriek of rage and betrayal that seemed like it would set the air on fire. Mara jerked back as the piercing sound cut through her ears—

And an instant later nearly fell over the guardrail as the Force equivalent of the scream slammed into her.

It was like nothing she'd ever experienced before; not from Vader, not from the Emperor himself. The utter, animal ferocity—the total loss of every shred of self-control—it was like standing alone in the middle of a sudden violent storm. Wave after wave of fury swept over her, ripping through the mental barrier she'd created and battering her mind with a numbing combination of hatred and pain. Dimly, she saw Skywalker and Organa Solo staggering under the assault; heard Karrde's vornskrs' howling in pain of their own."

This is second time he is described as worse than Palpatin and even her barrier couldn't hold against it.

If someone still doubts that his power rivals Palpatine's and Vitiate's, here is what he is truly capable of:
"Slowly, C'baoth raised his eyes to her. "You will die for this, Mara Jade," he said, his quiet voice more chilling than any outburst of rage could have been. "Slowly, and in great pain." Taking a deep breath, curling his hands into fists in front of his chest, he closed his eyes.

"We'll see about that," Mara muttered. Raising her lightsaber, she started toward him.

It began as a distant rumble, more felt than really heard. Luke looked around the room, senses tingling with a premonition of danger. But he could see nothing out of place. The sound grew louder, deeper—

And with a thunderous explosion, the sections of throne room ceiling directly above him and Mara suddenly collapsed in a downpour of gravel-sized rocks.

"Look out!" Luke shouted, throwing his arms up to protect his head and trying to leap out of the way. But the center of the rockfall moved with him. He tried again, this time nearly losing his balance as his foot caught in a pile of stones already ankle deep. Too numerous and too small for him to get a grip on through the Force, they kept coming, pummeling against him with bruising impact. Through the dust swirling around him, he saw Mara floundering under a deluge of her own, trying to guard her head with one arm as she slashed vainly at the falling stones with her lightsaber. From across the throne room, Luke could hear Han shouting something, and guessed that they, too, were under the same attack.

And standing untouched by the destructive rock storms he'd unleashed, C'baoth lifted his hands high. "I am the Jedi Master C'baoth!" he shouted, his voice ringing through the throne room and the roar of the rockfalls. "The Empire—the universe—is mine."

Luke dropped his lightsaber back into defense position, senses again tingling with danger. But once again, the knowledge did him little good. C'baoth's lightning burst flashed against the lightsaber blade, the impact knocking Luke off balance and dropping him painfully onto his knees in the pile of stones around him. Even as he struggled to get up, one of the falling rocks slammed hard into the side of his head. He staggered, toppling sideways onto one hand. Again the lightning flashed, throwing coronal fire all through the stone pile and sending wave after wave of agony through him. The lightsaber was plucked from his fingers; dimly he saw it fly over the railing toward the far end of the throne room.
" - Fully prepared Luke couldn't counter his TK in any way. Got completely overpowered by lightning. It is not uncommon to see a Force user utilizing TK and Lightning simultaniously but C'baot took it to extreme levels.

And if for some unknown reason someone still thinks that his lightning can't compare to Palpatine's or Vitiate's, here is what it can do to other objects:
"The lightning flashed again—

And with a crack of exploding metal the center of the catwalk split apart. " - His lightning can split/expload metal apart, I doubt that there is a single at least remotly comparable example by any other EU characters.

And what's really amazing is that Mara continued resisting his full power:
"Luke looked over at her. The stones were still raining down above her head; but to his astonishment, the knee-high pile of rock that had been trapping her in place was gone. And now he saw why: those lightsaber slashes she'd been making earlier hadn't been the useless sweeping motions that he'd assumed. Instead, she'd been slicing huge gashes in the floor, releasing the stones to drain through to the monitor area below.

Raising her lightsaber, she charged.

C'baoth swung around to face her, his face contorted with rage. "No!" he screamed; and again the blue-white lightning crackled from his fingertips. Mara caught the burst on her lightsaber, her mad rush faltering as coronal fire burned all around her. C'baoth fired again and again, backing toward the throne and the solid wall behind it. Doggedly, Mara kept coming.

Abruptly, the rockfall over her head ceased. From the edge of the pile that had half buried Luke, stones began flying toward C'baoth. Curving around behind him, they shot straight into Mara's face. She staggered backward, squeezing her eyes shut against the hailstorm and throwing up her right elbow to try to block them away.
" She kept resisting both his TK attacks and lightning right until Luke managed to distract him for her
to strike him down.

On death C'baot exploaded like Palpatine.
"And as it had with the Emperor aboard the Death Star, the dark side energy within him burst out in a violent explosion of blue fire"

While Luke shielded Mara from exploasion, its impact on nearest wall is tremendous, creating a hole in it:
"Luke turned and looked. The massive detonation of dark side energy had made a shambles of that end of the throne room. The walls and ceiling were blackened and cratered; the metal of the floor where C'baoth had stood was buckled and half melted; the throne itself had been ripped away and was lying smoldering a meter from its base.

And behind it, through a jagged crack in the rear wall, he could see the bright twinkle of a single star."

As conclusion I gonna point out at several facts that make these feats look much more impressive.

This fight happened just two years before DE and Luke already had 9 years of Jedi experience and fought many other more powerful users than him. Yet, he was still not even remotely as powerful as C'baot. C'baot could kill either of them at any point but instead he was toying with them until the final moment.

But the most impressive is that Mara unlike Luke in the first book of the trilogy was having hard time lifting even lightsaber sized objects. She was nowhere near to her prime. After that she became Kyle Katarn's apprentice. Even after Katarn she came to Luke's Academy for farther training. And even after that she kept improving and displayed even greater feats. Maybe she did not compare to Jacen but was immensely powerful nevertheless. She blocked extremely potent lightning. She is capable to put up mental barrier with technique she learned from Palpatine himself. She has got incredibly strong will and is one of the most staborn characters in the mythos. It makes sense now why Jacen never tried lightning againt either Luke or Mara because they could defend against immensely strong lightning long before they reached their prime.

I think she's got the right set of skills to take on Vitiate.

That was a fantastic post.

Too bad it's irrelevent. Vitiate as per the OP is waiting for her. That means he has enough time to pwn the shit out of her with powerful telepathy or FLightning.

Further, it is clear from all evidence presented at all levels--game, films, guides--that both the Sith Emperor and Palp are about as high as it gets in terms of total Force prowess. Not to knock Mara but if she couldn't finish Caedus when he's buried in rubble then she's not taking down the Emperor when he's fully aware she's coming for him. You said yourself, Arhael, that she doesn't even compare to Jacen which is not entirely true, but her defeat at his hands shows that she would have almost no chance against Vitiate in open combat.

Again, there is no question that her musings on killing Palpatine during his reign revolved around the fact that he trusted her almost absolutely and that he would not have suspected her attack until it was too late. Against the Sith Emperor she's dead on arrival.

Funny that both of you wrote empty statements with your opinions without backing it up with any real evidence.


C'baoth, also, was waiting for them. He caught her off guard with lightning, when she didn't even have lightsaber on her(she got it later from Leia). This time it not gonna happen because this time she knows what she is going for with all defenses up and she is more powerful and experienced. And her mental barrier will be ON because I gave her knowledge about him and preparation time.

Do you at least have any evidence that Vitiate can unleash similar wave of "pure hatred and betrayal" that would reap through her mental barrier? And the barrier gonna be stronger because again it is more powerful and experienced Mara in her prime.

With all hype about Vitiate's mind domination we actually never get to see/read how it works. I read many actual examples of mind domination in books and can say that imobilizing opponent with mental attack can be insant and faster than whatever raw outbrust Revan gave. The fact that Revan felt Vitiate starting mind domination and managed to counter it already proves that his mind domination is not instant.

Moreover, fights with Jedi strike team and JK show that to mind dominate powerful opponents he needs to break their will with Dun Moch and Force attacks just like Palpatine. Mara's technique learned from Emperor simply will prevent him from reading her thoughts. Even if he somehow will manage to break through her barrier, it will still give Mara enough time to reach him. Also, by JK it is proved that his TK and lightning ARE blockable.

I expect some substantial evidense and comparisons of why Vitiate's lightning or mental power is stronger than C'baoth's. And more important why Mara would get overpowered by his lightning or mind domination, when she could resist such attacks from similar opponent long before she reached her prime.



And how does it prove that C'baoth is less powerful? Instead of giving vague statements prove it by feats and canon facts. Vitiate and Sidious never displayed even remotely comparable feats of simultanious TK and lightning to C'baoth's. And C'baoth's mind domination is worse as it completely reshapes mentality and memories.
Also, he completely overpowered Luke, who already had 9 years experience and mere two years later was powerful enough to disable droids with wave of a hand, topple AT-AT and confront Palpatine himself.


And how losing to Jacen proves that she has almost no chance against Vitiate? Does Vitiate even have lightsaber? Since when Jacen who fought prime Luke nearly equaly and gave him as much injuries is considered weakling? The fact that Mara lost to Jacen doesn't make her unimpressive as much as it makes Jacen impressive.
And what kind of logic is that anyway? With same success I could argue that because Sidious lost to Windu he has almost no chance against Tulak Hord in open combat. Does it sound logical at all?

I think this is a case of reading far too much in Joruus' abilities, and possible exaggeration by the author, Perhaps this is comparable to taking quotes about Yoda from the RoTS novel, as it's entierly overblown out of reasonable proportion.

Bare in mind this is the Emperor who sucked the life force from an entire world, not to mention stomped his father when he was just a boy! Considering Vitiate also managed to dominate the minds of supposed great Jedi AND the Hero of Tython, his mental powers are not to be scoffed at.

I'm not calling Mara weak, because she's not. In her prime she's deadly, mostly because of her training and experience. But she's no-where near the league of Vitiate, provided he knows she's coming.

She loses.

First, I agree about stupid exagerations in RotS, however, all that hyperbole was about emotional state. In terms of Force abilities there was absolutly nothing extraordinary. But in this case we see
clear power difference between Luke and C'baoth and clear extraordinary Force use feats, which rival and even surpass in some cases Palpatine's and Vitiate's.

Second, it would be better to avoid judging authors entirely, when comparing characters. Comparing to Timothy Zhan, Drew sucks on ALL levels, I can point out so many flaws. Zhan is one of the best SW writers, if not the best. And he portrays things very logicaly and realisticly. In his later duology 22ABY Luke unlike DE is portrayed as regular Jedi without displaying any impressive feats. And it perfectly suits time period as prior to YV war he tried to use as little Force as possible.
I remember my friend strongly recomending a science fiction and saying that its author is genious. Imagine my amusement, when he said Timothy Zhan.

And most important he is the creator of Mara. Her feats from his books should be considered above all others. We can't discard those feats simply because the book is very old. We can't discard or lowball any of the feats from that boom because they are canon and so explicitly well and accurately portrayed unlike most other feats especially including Vitiate's.


And Sidious didn't suck worlds, yet, canonically he is the most powerful even in RotS. Also, I am sceptical that draining planets makes Force users more powerful. Vitiate was mind dominating Sith lords before draining a planet. Also, sources never stated that it gives greater power, it gives immortality. Same for Sidious, he was draining Byss not to gain power but to sustain his decaying body.

Also, Zannah killed two Jedi, when she was 6 and her mind attacks were making Jedi insance. Yet, she wasn't much more powerful than Bane who showed first clear Force signs only in adult age. So it doesn't mean much apart from the fact that both kids are creation of the same author.

Also, I ones again point out on circumstances of how he mind dominated Jedi strike team. He used Dun Moch. Then he attacked them with lightning as well as continued using Dun Moch until they all got overpowered. There can be two posibillities of how he mind dominated them:
1. He used mind domination from beginning. Then engaged in combat and used Dun Moch and overwhelming power of his lightning to break their will. Which is as impressive as Sidious in DE, when he engaged Luke in combat and mind dominated him by the end of the fight.

2. He overpowered them with lightning alone like in case with Revan and mind dominated them after, while they were unconscious with mental guard down, which is less impressive comparing to Sidious and far more realistic.

Also, Vitiate's mind domination quantity does not prove that it had better quality.
I claim that Sidious' mind domination is as good as Vitiate's and I digged up enough evidence to prove it. I am just waiting for someone to say that I am wrong.


Sorry but you didn't bring a single substantial evidence of why she is not in his league. You are simply being impressed by the game and Nyriss story. In reality Mara is in league of Jacen. Jacen is in league of Luke and when people say Luke vs Vitiate, everyone laughs and shouts Of course Luke.
Obviously Vitiate is more powerful than her but it doesn't mean she can't resist his powers. Hero of Tython didn't compare to Vitiate in terms of power either and yet he won.

It's clear that you already had your mind made up about this battle before you even made the thread. You are the only one under the impression that Mara Jade has a chance against Vitiate. No amount of quotes is going to convince you so pointless thread is now pointless. This is almost as bad as the guy convinced homeboy from Bleach could take Goku. Funny that your subtitle is "devoid of reality"; quite fitting.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
It's clear that you already had your mind made up about this battle before you even made the thread. You are the only one under the impression that Mara Jade has a chance against Vitiate. No amount of quotes is going to convince you so pointless thread is now pointless. This is almost as bad as the guy convinced homeboy from Bleach could take Goku. Funny that your subtitle is "devoid of reality"; quite fitting.
For someone talking about "amount of quotes," you sure haven't provided very many.

Originally posted by Arhael
C'baoth, also, was waiting for them.

Whoopdi freaking doo. C'boath isn't as powerful as you seem to think he is.

Originally posted by Arhael
He caught her off guard with lightning, when she didn't even have lightsaber on her(she got it later from Leia). This time it not gonna happen because this time she knows what she is going for with all defenses up and she is more powerful and experienced. And her mental barrier will be ON because I gave her knowledge about him and preparation time.

Irrelevent. Her defenses are not adequate to defend against the power that Vitiate can bring to bare.

Lightning? Vitiates full-power lightning was stated to being 'infinately greater' than Nyris', whose lightning was some of the most powerful in the mythos, capable to tearing through her own barrier and disintegrating herself. Even with a lightsaber, Mara has no chance to defend against that.

Telekinesis? Vitiate with a wave of his hand disintegrated T3. Has Mara even faced such focused destructive power? I think not.

Telepathy? Vitiate is likely the most powerful telepath in the series. You yourself compared him to Sidious, and Mara has equally no chance to defend against Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
Do you at least have any evidence that Vitiate can unleash similar wave of "pure hatred and betrayal" that would reap through her mental barrier? And the barrier gonna be stronger because again it is more powerful and experienced Mara in her prime.


With all hype about Vitiate's mind domination we actually never get to see/read how it works. I read many actual examples of mind domination in books and can say that imobilizing opponent with mental attack can be insant and faster than whatever raw outbrust Revan gave. The fact that Revan felt Vitiate starting mind domination and managed to counter it already proves that his mind domination is not instant.

This assumes that Mara can stop Vitiate while he is using his mental domination on her. Vitiates guards were rendered invulnerable to Revan's TK through sheer proximity to the Emperor, and you think that Mara can make him budge?

Originally posted by Arhael
Moreover, fights with Jedi strike team and JK show that to mind dominate powerful opponents he needs to break their will with Dun Moch and Force attacks just like Palpatine.

He didn't need to break Revan and Malak's wills first.

Originally posted by Arhael
Mara's technique learned from Emperor simply will prevent him from reading her thoughts. Even if he somehow will manage to break through her barrier, it will still give Mara enough time to reach him. Also, by JK it is proved that his TK and lightning ARE blockable.

Yes, by the Hero of Tython. That doesn't mean that Mara can replicate that. The Hero is, by Vitiates words, 'immensely powerful'. I would even go as far as to say that the Hero of Tython is one of the greatest Jedi in the mythos. Mara sadly is not.

Originally posted by Arhael
I expect some substantial evidense and comparisons of why Vitiate's lightning or mental power is stronger than C'baoth's. And more important why Mara would get overpowered by his lightning or mind domination, when she could resist such attacks from similar opponent long before she reached her prime.

C'baoth is not similar to Vitiate. Show me C'baoth casually taking down 5 jedi at the same time. Show me C'baoth disintegrating someone with his FLightning. Show me C'baoth taking out almost the entire Dark Council at once. Show me C'baoth mind controlling a hundred Sith Lords at once.

Originally posted by Arhael
And how does it prove that C'baoth is less powerful? Instead of giving vague statements prove it by feats and canon facts. Vitiate and Sidious never displayed even remotely comparable feats of simultanious TK and lightning to C'baoth's. And C'baoth's mind domination is worse as it completely reshapes mentality and memories.

Are you serious? Sidious is so powerful that even Galen Marek is 'ultimately no match' for him. And since when was being able to simulateously use TK and FLightning incredibly impressive? Dooku could do that. You know, the man who shat his cape when Sidious so much as raised him voice at him? Both Sidious and Vitiate have displayed the highest form of FLightning. Both Sidious and Vitiate have displayed the highest form of Telekinesis. C'baoth is nothing in comparison.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, he completely overpowered Luke, who already had 9 years experience and mere two years later was powerful enough to disable droids with wave of a hand, topple AT-AT and confront Palpatine himself.

'A mere two years' is a long time. In a mere two years Anakin goes from losing an arm to Dooku to routinely fighting equally with him.

Originally posted by Arhael
And how losing to Jacen proves that she has almost no chance against Vitiate? Does Vitiate even have lightsaber? Since when Jacen who fought prime Luke nearly equaly and gave him as much injuries is considered weakling? The fact that Mara lost to Jacen doesn't make her unimpressive as much as it makes Jacen impressive.
And what kind of logic is that anyway? With same success I could argue that because Sidious lost to Windu he has almost no chance against Tulak Hord in open combat. Does it sound logical at all?

Does it sound logical to say that because Mara failed to mentally defend herself from C'boath that she would against Vitiate?

Bring me something actually impressive next time.

Originally posted by Arhael
Hero of Tython didn't compare to Vitiate in terms of power either and yet he won.

Why do you say that? The Hero of Tython is clearly the only Jedi in TOR whose power does compare to Vitiates, which is why you have to fight him alone. The fact that the Hero beats him despite being in a powerful Dark Side nexus makes it very clear that shes around as powerful as he is imo.

Referee: One...two...three...four...

Announcer: It doesn't look like he's getting up from this one, folks!

LOL @ C'boath being as powerful as Sidious and Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
It was like nothing she'd ever experienced before; not from Vader, not from the Emperor himself. The utter, animal ferocity—the total loss of every shred of self-control—it was like standing alone in the middle of a sudden violent storm. Wave after wave of fury swept over her, ripping through the mental barrier she'd created and battering her mind with a numbing combination of hatred and pain. Dimly, she saw Skywalker and Organa Solo staggering under the assault; heard Karrde's vornskrs' howling in pain of their own."

This is second time he is described as worse than Palpatin and even her barrier couldn't hold against it.

Palpatine never tried to break through Mara's mental barrier. He didn't need to, the girl was completely subservient to his will so much that she considered him a good man in Allegiance. She seems to have only thought negative things about him after his death. So no, there is nothing to suggest she can block a mental intrusion from Sidious. Hell, Palpatine put Vader on his knees via a telepathic assault.

-The Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook (Clone B-2332-54)

And it should be noted that Palpatine wasn't even near Vader.

In Resurrection Palpatine also reduces three dark siders to charred bone, using only one hand.

I'm confused here. Reducing people to ash is bull shit as it, supposedly, only happens in Karpashyn's books. But shattering metal is fine?

Edit: Vitiate wins.

Again: "Devoid of Reality" is so very apt.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm confused here. Reducing people to ash is bull shit as it, supposedly, only happens in Karpashyn's books. But shattering metal is fine? If you want we can discard shattering metal as well. Neither of them is more impressive, than the other, which is exactly my point.
Simple matter is that all three Palpatine, Vitiate and C'baoth have evidence that implies that their lightning is as high as it could get. Who's lightning is stronger is determined only by bias towards what impressed people more or who they like, therefore, neither is better and it would be fair to count their lightning strength as more or less equal.


Amerikans...

Just wanted to post up your own statement from another thread as to how powerful you believe Vitiate's lightning to be:

Originally posted by Arhael
SW_Legion made me think about it.
How can her lightning be extremely potent?
If it was so potent Revan would have hard time absorbing it. Considering that Vitiate's lightning was described as "infinitively more powerful" means that her lightning was nowhere near to extrememly potent.

Also, lets not forget that lightning that killed her came from Revan who didn't mind using darkside, so we can assume that he added his own power as well. Other theory could be that he gave it out in a single burst instead of prolonged lightning, so it's voltage was much higher.

The only thing that makes it look so potent is that she put up Force barrier and still turned into ashes. But look at next observation. Nephtys, you said that Windu doesn't have the ability to absorb, also, we know that Nyriss put up defense barrier, while Windu didn't. Yet, Sidoius' lightning didn't turn Windu to ashes.

When I asked SW_legion to prove that Vitiate's lightning is stronger than Sidious', the best hilarious argument he came up with is that Vitiate's lightning had "dozen bolts", while Sidious in movie picture had only three. "The more bolts, the harder to counter." However, he failed to notice that Nyriss' lightning was, also described as "dozen bolts".
A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss’s hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies.

So, do we draw a conclusion that Nyriss' lightning from one hand was stronger than Sidious' from both hands because it had much more bolts and turned powerful Force user with defenses up into ashes, while his didn't turn to ashes even a defensless opponent? Such logic is fvcked up.

Also, I don't believe Dooku's lightning is any weaker, than her. It was obviously much weaker, than Sidious but so was Nyriss' comparing to Vitiate.

I believe that Vitiate's lightning is as powerful as Palpatine's. And it is very unbiased opinion considering that Palpatine is canonically the most powerful Sith with complete mastery of the darkside and his lightning is described as "Full power of the Darkside".

Goddammit.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/rapchill/SW_Visionaries_057.jpg

Does this one work?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Goddammit.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/rapchill/SW_Visionaries_057.jpg

Does this one work?

The worm isn't made of metal though, so that's irrelevant.

D'oh! I forgot that, and he also didn't use it on a Force user. Its completely useless!

And yet he didn't even attempt it. Not couldn't counter it, thats retarded because Luke has already demonstrated his superiority in that aspect to Jacen, but rather he simply didn't counter it.
Luke had crippled leg, which affected him a lot, while Jacen had all limbs in tact. Yet, he didn't try to subdue him with TK but contnued with sabers instead. Either he is retarded or he couldn't because in combat his TK is not as superior as you are trying to claim.

There is fallacy in your logic. Revan was not described putting up any defence, when Vitiate pushed him. Vitiate wasn't affected much by Revan's super powerful backstaggering blast and he was "unprepared". This as many other sources show that even unprepared Force users have natural defence. Same way Bane's bone shattering, flesh liquifying and temple topling Force blast doesn't do a thing to Kazim. Same way Ben experiences Oneness and unleashes that OMG power with Force blast but Abeloth only slightly wavers and she is not described using Force to defend. So yes, when we see powerful user flying away and nearly cracking spine, it is by all accounts impressive.


That surge of power means that he was desperate at that point. He recovered and and didn't complain after. Assume that his TK wasn't as strong as it could be as much as you like, facts are on my side. He tolerates pain. He gets empowered by pain. And as I said there is plenty of examples, when characters with lethal injuries show the greatest feats in their life time. His physical performance was affcted but it's irelevant as Vitiate doesn't do physical performance AT ALL.


Insane people experience far stronger emotions, they are psycho. His rage was nothing like Palpatine' or Vader's,
"complete loss of self-control".


Mara blocked lightning that could split metal. I say it is as impressive as blocking Vitiate's.
Also, Luke in RotJ novel could even harmlessly deflect lightning with bare hands for some time. Since he got more powerful and experienced and still got overpowered by C'baoth's lightning (and you said that it is much easier with lightsaber). Clearly his lightning rivals Palpatine's and Vitiate's.


Don't you start. Yoda couldn't even walk properly, yet, his combat and power was over the top. Luke in his sixties handled Abeloth. Palpatine was decaying from his own power, yet, look what he did to Marek.

It depends on power does it, that's news to me. Mind giving a source for that? Because I could swear all Force-use requires skill as well. Are seriously saying that Sidious didn't have top skill in use of lightning? I am sure he had
complete mastery over it. It reflect his power and he is the most powerful.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
PROVE IT! I DARE YOU!!!!


Prove that they got empowered by nexus! I am tired of your constant assumptions. JK blocked lightning, it's blockable, end of story.

Because you refuse to admit that there is no way to prove that Vitiate's lightning is any stronger than C'baoth's.

Very good guess. That's why they can't be disintegrated.

On picture it suspeciously looks like rubbish bin.


He did not reap it, he split it with "exploading crack of metal" with lightning. And that's as infinitively unrealistic as Vitiate's lightning could be.

You asked about practice, I gave you example. To learn and undersrand how a technique works he doesn't need a Palpatine alike.

My point is that he is skilled and powerful enough to block and resist extremely potent lightning. If C'baorh's lightning wasn't strong, he would be able to deflect it with bare hands like Palpatine's.

It happened in 8ABY. Fight with C'baoth - in 9ABY. She had some time for improvement. And even if C'baoth is not as powerful, she still has plenty of space for improvement.


Fine! Lightning stopped, when he sent into her face. But still she blocked lightning and rocks were still falling from the top at that point.

And yes, I am a foreigner. I, also, post from my phone while at work and spellcheck is way too uncomfortable to be bothered. But I try as hard as I can to make less mistakes.


Correction. Based upon vague stories without actual display of the feats and crucial details required for evaluation.


What matters is that we don't know their state of mind at the time. Luke in one case loses fight and gets mind dominated, in another - breaks free, tanks Flightning and overpowers in combat. Emotons and thoughts are the most imortant part in determining ability to resist mind domination and combat effectivness in general. If Revan and Malak had fear, doubts, despair or any other emotion affecting them negatively, then they are easy prey to mind domination no matter how powerful they were.


Agree about lightning impact. But LOL at metal catwalk not being sturdy enough.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke had crippled leg, which affected him a lot, while Jacen had all limbs in tact. Yet, he didn't try to subdue him with TK but contnued with sabers instead. Either he is retarded or he couldn't because in combat his TK is not as superior as you are trying to claim.

Or Luke just doesn't offensively assault his opponents with TK. Remember that he was the person Yoda was giving his big speech of 'the Fprce is used for knowledge and defense, never to attack' to.

Also, yes Luke is quite retarded and seemingly never brings to bare his full powers on enemies. You might as well say that since he didn't try and use TK on Lumiya that she's comparable to him in that regard. Despite the fact that Lumiya was getting outperformed in TK by a random Jedi Knight in Betrayal.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is fallacy in your logic. Revan was not described putting up any defence, when Vitiate pushed him. Vitiate wasn't affected much by Revan's super powerful backstaggering blast and he was "unprepared". This as many other sources show that even unprepared Force users have natural defence.

Ahaha, what? Um proof please? Thats a pretty goddamn big claim to make based on some inconsistency in showings. Its just inconsistency, or you could say that its implied that Revan partially blocked Vitiates Force Push. But to claim based off of it that all force users have natural defenses is silly.

Originally posted by Arhael
Same way Bane's bone shattering, flesh liquifying and temple topling Force blast doesn't do a thing to Kazim.

Um, because Kas'im blocked it with a shield, as stated in the text?

Originally posted by Arhael
Same way Ben experiences Oneness and unleashes that OMG power with Force blast but Abeloth only slightly wavers and she is not described using Force to defend. So yes, when we see powerful user flying away and nearly cracking spine, it is by all accounts impressive.

Huh, Ben experiences Oneness? That's interesting I guess. However I think in that case we can safely assume that she blocked the attack normally.

Originally posted by Arhael
That surge of power means that he was desperate at that point. He recovered and and didn't complain after. Assume that his TK wasn't as strong as it could be as much as you like, facts are on my side. He tolerates pain. He gets empowered by pain. And as I said there is plenty of examples, when characters with lethal injuries show the greatest feats in their life time. His physical performance was affected but it's irelevant as Vitiate doesn't do physical performance AT ALL.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s214/Zexeners/Courtroom%20Drama/Miles%20Edgeworth/th_ani-edgeworth-finger-tap.gif

But Jacen didn't show the greatest feats of his life did he? He struggled against someone he repeated expressed amazement that she was even keeping up with him, someone who admits that she can't take him in a straight fight. The text makes it clear that Jacen's performance was suffering by both his physical state and his inability to overwhelm someone who he should be far above in terms of capabilities.

Originally posted by Arhael
Insane people experience far stronger emotions, they are psycho. His rage was nothing like Palpatine' or Vader's, "complete loss of self-control".

No, they just have far less control over their emotions.

Originally posted by Arhael
Mara blocked lightning that could split metal. I say it is as impressive as blocking Vitiate's.

And I say it isn't. For one thing C'baoths feat does not compare to Vitiates in terms of sheer power. Sorry, but cracking a catwalk will never compare to utterly immolating someone. For another C'baoth was using lightning at the same time as using TK, so there's a good chance that his lightning was not nearly as powerful as it would be when he for using just lightning. As evidence, recall that Jade previously failed to block C'baoth's lightning, but when he was splitting his power between TK and lightning she was able to suddenly. Logically, it makes sense.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Luke in RotJ novel could even harmlessly deflect lightning with bare hands for some time. Since he got more powerful and experienced and still got overpowered by C'baoth's lightning (and you said that it is much easier with lightsaber). Clearly his lightning rivals Palpatine's and Vitiate's.

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af134/Powerdrone311/y-edgeworth-tskcDA.gif

Which contradicts the movie and is thus non-canon. Plus, Sidious was using low level lightning on Luke anyway, wanting to torture him for rejecting him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Don't you start. Yoda couldn't even walk properly, yet, his combat and power was over the top. Luke in his sixties handled Abeloth. Palpatine was decaying from his own power, yet, look what he did to Marek.

Over the top, yes. But in his prime? These characters are all the strongest in the mythos, and as such they can comfortably boost themselves to make up for their physical weaknesses. Mara on the other hand would have a harder job of doing that.

Originally posted by Arhael
Are seriously saying that Sidious didn't have top skill in use of lightning? I am sure he had complete mastery over it. It reflect his power and he is the most powerful.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that he doesn't necessarily have top skill in lightning. Sidious isn't the be-all end-all of every technique. Nihilus was his superior in terms of draining after all. And there are others who I would argue might eclipse him in duelling.

And as I have said repeatedly, Sidious still has some of the best lightning feats in the mythos.

Originally posted by Arhael
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
PROVE IT! I DARE YOU!!!!

Simple: Windu was not reduced to ash.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/edgeworth-bow%28a%29.gif

And since we know that Sidious can reduce flesh to ash with his lightning, the most simple and logical answer would be that he was not using his full-power, but preferred to torture Mace a bit before killing him, just like he did against Luke in RotJ.

Originally posted by Arhael
Prove that they got empowered by nexus! I am tired of your constant assumptions. JK blocked lightning, it's blockable, end of story.

My impression is that nexus' empower darksiders naturally. The darkside is simply naturally stronger on a nexus. Anyway, the nexus exists as an explanation for why their lightning was so powerful, if you want one as you've been asking me.

And I never claimed that it isn't blockable. Just that it isn't blockable by Mara Jade.

Originally posted by Arhael
Because you refuse to admit that there is no way to prove that Vitiate's lightning is any stronger than C'baoth's.

Vitiates lightning defeated 5 Jedi at once, including Tol Braga, one of the foremost champions of the order and Jedi Council member and the Hero of Tython, who even at that point had performed incredible feats of power. Furthermore his lightning was stated to be 'infinitely greater' than the lightning of Nyriss, whose own lightning was some of the most powerful in the mythos, capable of disintegration despite a Force Barrier. Unlike when Revan handled her lightning, Vitiates lightning overwhelmed him.

C'baoth's lightning split a catwalk.

Originally posted by Arhael
Very good guess. That's why they can't be disintegrated.

Not that much hardier.

Originally posted by Arhael
On picture it suspeciously looks like rubbish bin.

So you agree that its made of metal?

Originally posted by Arhael
He did not reap it, he split it with "exploading crack of metal" with lightning. And that's as infinitively unrealistic as Vitiate's lightning could be.

It's unrealistic, but not as impressive as Sidious or Vitiates lightning. To split a catwalk is not that much force comparatively for a powerful Sith.

Originally posted by Arhael
My point is that he is skilled and powerful enough to block and resist extremely potent lightning. If C'baorh's lightning wasn't strong, he would be able to deflect it with bare hands like Palpatine's.

Well then your point is false because he didn't deflect Palpatines lightning, and the only case you brought up of his defending against lightning was from a random nightsister, not who I would call 'extremely potent.'

Originally posted by Arhael
It happened in 8ABY. Fight with C'baoth - in 9ABY. She had some time for improvement. And even if C'baoth is not as powerful, she still has plenty of space for improvement.

Oh so now huge improvements are possible in short spans of time? Then you agree that the mere fact of Luke fighting C'baoth 2 years before DE isn't impressive for either?

She sure must have improved though, because that is seriously some of the weakest Force use I've ever seen.

Originally posted by Arhael
Fine! Lightning stopped, when he sent into her face. But still she blocked lightning and rocks were still falling from the top at that point.

And yes, I am a foreigner. I, also, post from my phone while at work and spellcheck is way too uncomfortable to be bothered. But I try as hard as I can to make less mistakes.

Concession accepted.

Then I apologise for my rudeness. I shouldn't have poked fun at you.

Originally posted by Arhael
What matters is that we don't know their state of mind at the time. Luke in one case loses fight and gets mind dominated, in another - breaks free, tanks Flightning and overpowers in combat. Emotons and thoughts are the most imortant part in determining ability to resist mind domination and combat effectivness in general. If Revan and Malak had fear, doubts, despair or any other emotion affecting them negatively, then they are easy prey to mind domination no matter how powerful they were.

I'm going to need proof that mental state is important in resisting domination. Surely it should be based on strength in the Force and skill in shielding techniques.

Originally posted by Arhael
Agree about lightning impact. But LOL at metal catwalk not being sturdy enough.

Do you want to prove how sturdy it is? Remember, catwalks are not exactly that thick in terms of metal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Spite.

I'd be hesitant to back anyone beating a fully prepared Emperor.

I mean canonically the Jedi Knight did defeat his Voice after giving him time to prepare in the LS ending.

... Ok, except her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Or Luke just doesn't offensively assault his opponents with TK. Remember that he was the person Yoda was giving his big speech of 'the Fprce is used for knowledge and defense, never to attack' to.

So when Yoda pushed Sidious, he held back? You can't assume someone held back, when it suits you.


Lumya overpowered by TK?
"Nelani tried again, this time with the bust of the Bothan. It reached a halfway point between her and Lumiya, but the older woman reached out with her own free hand and the bust stopped in midair.
She lost this TK contest only after prolong struggle as she got exhausted. It clearly showes that her TK is not weak but she has got smaller Force reserves. And it doesn't prove that she can't defend against a Force blast or be directly subdued, so your assumption doesn't count. When she fought Luke, she hid behind innocents, there was every right reason to subdue her with TK. Mara certainly didn't hold back and she didn't subdue her with TK either. With losing limbs she has less ways to utilize Force and gets exhausted faster but her Force strength equates to midichlorian count per cell.

Force users anticipate things before they happen, don't they? And even if Force users get caught off guard, they still don't get vaporized and don't die. As example Luke got Force pushed by Unu'Thul and Luke didn't put up any defence. During his flight he bounced off YVH droids and tried to slow down himself with TK as much as possible and still impact was so strong that his helmet split in half and on a wall was "a fist-deep depression where its impact had dented the durasteel." Now imagine speed he flew with, it's like being hit by full speed car, if not faster. Imagine what concussion of such blast alone would do to a non-Force sensitive. When Luke blasted Jacen, he was afraid that "rake would break". No way I will agree with assumption that Luke held back.

In other words in all cases you assume what suits your
cause. As I said Force defences are rarely portrayed.

There is nothing wrong with her resisting his TK. Kazim fully resisted Bane's and by all accounts Bane is more powerful and his TK is superior to Kazim's. Welk fully resisted Luke's Force blast and there is no mention of him holding back on that attack, was Welk equally powerful then? In case if you don't know, inferior Force users can resist attacks of more powerful ones, otherwise Abeloth wouldn't have so much trouble with Luke.

When Anakin controls his emotions, Dooku has easy time. When Anakin gets enraged, Dooku dies.

Metal is countless times more durable, than flesh. Also, while JK and Braga were blocking lightning, other three helplessly stood reciving full impact. And, when Vitiate finished with all of them, for another 5-10 seconds lightning danced around JK's unconscious body. Moreover, non of them had absorb ability. As you see no one turned to ashes. So did Vitiate held back or simply lightning doesn't turn to ashes in TOR portrayal?

Lol Whatever logic she just didn't have lightsaber on her. She got it from Leia, which came there in the middle of the fight.

If you say so, then Vitiate and Mara are non-canon and our argument is pointless. Novel is c-canon, it is as canon as Vitiate.

Enough assumptions, at no point she complained and she didn't have any physical problems either.

Not the strongest in lightning, not the strongest in mind domination, not the strongest combatant, not the strongest TK (no feats comparable to Marek for example), not the strongest drain. Force storm doesn't demonstrate superior power as it's just a unique technique. What's left? The most powerful polititian? I am not saying he is stronger in everything and he isn't but such mainstream abilities as TK and lightning directly reflect his power.

Lightning is a technique, which can be mastered and Sidious fully mastered it. It's strength depends on power and anger levels. Sidious is the most powerful, therefore, his lighrning is at least as powerful as Vitiate's or above. And even might conceed and agree that Vitiate's lightning is steonger but the difference will be minimal.

No. Material comes from different authors. Each author understands Force and its effects differently just like you and me, there is no guidance by Lucas. As example Yoda was knocked unconscious by Sidious' lightning, so as you see his lightning doesn't even kill. And lightning was still dancing on Yoda's body as he lay on the floor and he didn't even have any burns. Sidious also held back? Or you will assume that Yoda was faking? Mara after two secs of lightning was conscious and, yet, had burns on her. See how different it is when comparing sources?

It doesn't reduce. And it doesn't kill as proved with Yoda. Also, there is no prove that his lightning incinirates. On one picture you provided we see lightning on other three no lightning and his hands spread wide like he uses TK. I would appriciate, if you provided a single normal source from a novel, film or game, which gives answers instead of more questions. Anyway incinirating a worm not instantly does not compare to reaping throigh Force barrier and incinirating a Force user instantly.

And your impression is right. It provides better emotional state to darksiders. And yes
it gives power, it allowes using Force more without getting exhausted and to use Force on much wider scale but it doesn't increase focused attack strength. I know of a feat, where one user with nexus can rise stone storm that spans kilometers and, yet, cannot Force crush another user, who benefiting from the same nexus could just lift a few more stones than usually. I will reveil that feat much later as it relates to Mara.
In any case, if we assume that Nexus was empowering them so much that Sidious lightning doesn't compare even to Nyriss and that Nexus affects lightsiders negatively, then it puts Revan and JK God like far above any existing Jedi. Also, it makes Yoda's absorb look child's play. Sorry it doesn't work light that. Sidious lightning rivals Vitiate's and Yoda's absorb is better, than Revan's as demonstrated against Sidious.


Three of them couldn't resist at all, so they didn'make it any harder for Vitiate. JK was still learning. And powerful Force users are not born that often to put Tol Braga any close to Windu and Yoda league. Kit Fisto was also one of the greatest swordsmen of his era, yet, he dies from first slash.

That's your impression. My impression is different. C'baoth handled Luke who was already 9 years Jedi with plenty of feats in background and he didn't even put full effort on Luke alone.

Random doesn't equate to weak and she was considered one of the strongest witches by others.
And Luke did deflect lightning:
"The young Jedi was at once confounded and in agony -he'd never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it.

But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful - the lightning rebounded from his touch harmlessly into the walls."


Yes, huge improvements are possible over short time, when they just start learning and especially, when they restore connection like Mara. It's proven by Luke, Kyle Katarn, Desann, Corran Horn, Kyp Durron, Jedan Korr and many other characters. But this huge improvement happens only at beginning. Luke demonstrated his huge improvement on Vader, Palpatine, Cronal, Lumya and Datomiri witches. Logically there can't be huge improvements after another two years. If a guy does gym first time, after 1 year there will be huge progress but if a guy does gym for 9 years, after another two the progress will be hardly noticible.

I will give solid prove later, just not ready to give out my joker yet as it relates to Mara as well.
For now you can look at how Palpatine worked at Marek's mind in sidious vs Vitiate thread. He dominated his mind by exposing emotions. And after Marek was brougt back to his senses by Bale Organa's shout, he started thinking logically what is wrong and what is right.
Same with Luke. Leia brought him back to his senses by reaching towards him and then he realized all mistakes in his ways and cast off domination himself.
Same with Toll Braga. JK told him that there is always hope and that he needs to fight it, then Braga found strength to break free. Both JK and Braga were given inspiration and inspiration is an emotional thing.
It is indeed all about emotions and thinking. Strong will is not a matter of power, it's a matter of personality and state of mind. Jacen could mentally force even strong Force users to do what he wants, yet, a non-Force sensitive Mandalorian managed to resist him, although, she died as result.

Find any thin metal catwalk, strike it with biggest hammer you can find, look at impact. xD
And in SW lightning gives much weaker impact than TK, it's main power is burning.

Arhael, Jacen/Caedus was nowhere near the level of Luke. Luke actually held back because he didn't want Ben seeing his "Master" killed. Luke actually wounded him in the head with his lightsaber blade. I have not been and never will ever be impressed by Jacen/Caedus

Originally posted by Arhael
So when Yoda pushed Sidious, he held back? You can't assume someone held back, when it suits you.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m70y40OELh1rt35ru.gif

I'm assuming nothing. That's what happened. Tell me when Yoda has ever tried to kill someone with the Force and I might be inclined to admit I was wrong.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lumya overpowered by TK?
"Nelani tried again, this time with the bust of the Bothan. It reached a halfway point between her and Lumiya, but the older woman reached out with her own free hand and the bust stopped in midair

She lost this TK contest only after prolong struggle as she got exhausted. It clearly showes that her TK is not weak but she has got smaller Force reserves. And it doesn't prove that she can't defend against a Force blast or be directly subdued, so your assumption doesn't count. When she fought Luke, she hid behind innocents, there was every right reason to subdue her with TK. Mara certainly didn't hold back and she didn't subdue her with TK either. With losing limbs she has less ways to utilize Force and gets exhausted faster but her Force strength equates to midichlorian count per cell.

Yes, overpowered. She tries to resist but eventually she gets overpowered by Nelani. It doesn't matter why she was overpowered, she was still overpowered.

As for Luke, as I've said he didn't want to use his powers in that way, plus it's entire possible he didn't want to risk the hostages.

And Mara? Maybe she's just not powerful enough to overpower Lumiya.

Originally posted by Arhael
Force users anticipate things before they happen, don't they?

Not always. Nor can they always react to the things they anticipate.

Originally posted by Arhael
And even if Force users get caught off guard, they still don't get vaporized and don't die. As example Luke got Force pushed by Unu'Thul and Luke didn't put up any defence. During his flight he bounced off YVH droids and tried to slow down himself with TK as much as possible and still impact was so strong that his helmet split in half and on a wall was "a fist-deep depression where its impact had dented the durasteel." Now imagine speed he flew with, it's like being hit by full speed car, if not faster.

Helmet? Am I to understand that Luke was wearing some manner of protection during that quote? If so, that explains it very nicely.

Originally posted by Arhael
Imagine what concussion of such blast alone would do to a non-Force sensitive. When Luke blasted Jacen, he was afraid that "rake would break". No way I will agree with assumption that Luke held back.

That's your own problem. I've explained to you why it makes sense for Luke to hold back. Luke never overpowers his opponents with his TK in combat.

Originally posted by Arhael
In other words in all cases you assume what suits your
cause. As I said Force defences are rarely portrayed.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4ida6HjL71qkpnrw.gif

Oh blah blah, look at how disapproving you are. I feel so bad.

Abeloth is a strange being. It's possible that she simply wasn't affected by TK normally, or that she was too heavy for him to push.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is nothing wrong with her resisting his TK.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m72rjmx2Y61rt35ru.gif

Yeah there is, as the text itself notes. Jacen wonders how he can't beat her despite his superior command of the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
Kazim fully resisted Bane's and by all accounts Bane is more powerful and his TK is superior to Kazim's. Welk fully resisted Luke's Force blast and there is no mention of him holding back on that attack, was Welk equally powerful then? In case if you don't know, inferior Force users can resist attacks of more powerful ones, otherwise Abeloth wouldn't have so much trouble with Luke.

Bane also spread out his attack over a wide area in order to break the temple roof. Kas'im only blocked a fraction of the actual attack. And Welk, as I've said repeatedly Luke never overpowers anyone with the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
When Anakin controls his emotions, Dooku has easy time. When Anakin gets enraged, Dooku dies.

Enraged isn't the same thing as insane, now is it?

Originally posted by Arhael
Metal is countless times more durable, than flesh.

http://www.court-records.net/animationgk/kazura-snerk%28b%29.gif

Which would be impressive if C'baoth actually disintegrated metal rather than just broke it.

Also remember that Nyriss disintegrated a Force User. Weren't you just arguing that Force Users have natural defences that make them much harder to kill, like denting durasteel?

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, while JK and Braga were blocking lightning, other three helplessly stood reciving full impact. And, when Vitiate finished with all of them, for another 5-10 seconds lightning danced around JK's unconscious body. Moreover, non of them had absorb ability. As you see no one turned to ashes. So did Vitiate held back or simply lightning doesn't turn to ashes in TOR portrayal?

http://www.court-records.net/animationgk/kazura-laugh%28c%29.gif

He held back obviously! He wanted to capture them, remember?

Originally posted by Arhael
Lol Whatever logic she just didn't have lightsaber on her. She got it from Leia, which came there in the middle of the fight.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l80ohs1NVP1qb7z4u.gif

..... er, yes I knew that.

The point still remains that theres no way his lightning was as potent as it was when he was only use=ing that rather than plitting his attention.

Originally posted by Arhael
If you say so, then Vitiate and Mara are non-canon and our argument is pointless. Novel is c-canon, it is as canon as Vitiate.

No no no no no, what I'm saying is that Luke didn't reflect any lightning in the movies, therefore the novel contradicts a higher form of canon and is invalid.

Originally posted by Arhael
Enough assumptions, at no point she complained and she didn't have any physical problems either.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4idbohoLI1qkpnrw.gif

Ahaha, ok dude, I was just making a point. Mara was pretty old. I would harder call her in her prime.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not the strongest in lightning, not the strongest in mind domination, not the strongest combatant, not the strongest TK (no feats comparable to Marek for example), not the strongest drain. Force storm doesn't demonstrate superior power as it's just a unique technique. What's left? The most powerful polititian? I am not saying he is stronger in everything and he isn't but such mainstream abilities as TK and lightning directly reflect his power.

Lightning is a technique, which can be mastered and Sidious fully mastered it. It's strength depends on power and anger levels. Sidious is the most powerful, therefore, his lighrning is at least as powerful as Vitiate's or above. And even might conceed and agree that Vitiate's lightning is steonger but the difference will be minimal.

Oh, wheres your proof that he 'fully mastered' it?

Anyway I'm glad that he agree. Vitiates lightning is among the very best the series has ever produced.


.... and what do you think that means for Mara's chances btw?

Originally posted by Arhael
No. Material comes from different authors. Each author understands Force and its effects differently just like you and me, there is no guidance by Lucas. As example Yoda was knocked unconscious by Sidious' lightning, so as you see his lightning doesn't even kill. And lightning was still dancing on Yoda's body as he lay on the floor and he didn't even have any burns. Sidious also held back? Or you will assume that Yoda was faking? Mara after two secs of lightning was conscious and, yet, had burns on her. See how different it is when comparing sources?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4idaoPxk81qkpnrw.gif

Yep! Thats exactly what I think! Sidious was clearly overconfident at the start, laughing his ass off and monologing at Yoda. It was only after Yoda demonstrated his power that he took him seriously.

Originally posted by Arhael
It doesn't reduce. And it doesn't kill as proved with Yoda. Also, there is no prove that his lightning incinirates.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4idaoPxk81qkpnrw.gif

Thats funny, I could have sworn I saw it do just that in the source I posted!

Originally posted by Arhael
On one picture you provided we see lightning on other three no lightning and his hands spread wide like he uses TK.

I suggest you go to this thread if you want the full picture. Page 12 seems not to work for me, but I assure you, its simply the large image I posted on the other page. Sidious gets swallowed, he uses lightning and then the Sith Worm disintegrates.

Originally posted by Arhael
I would appriciate, if you provided a single normal source from a novel, film or game, which gives answers instead of more questions.

Sidious66 gave you another source which you seem to be ignoring:

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In Resurrection Palpatine also reduces three dark siders to charred bone, using only one hand.

Originally posted by Arhael
Anyway incinirating a worm not instantly does not compare to reaping throigh Force barrier and incinirating a Force user instantly.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6ee8atkhV1qkpnrw.gif

If you say so. In that case Nyriss' lightning is superior to Sidious'. I'll try not to lose any sleep over it.

Originally posted by Arhael
And your impression is right. It provides better emotional state to darksiders. And yes it gives power, it allowes using Force more without getting exhausted and to use Force on much wider scale but it doesn't increase focused attack strength. I know of a feat, where one user with nexus can rise stone storm that spans kilometers and, yet, cannot Force crush another user, who benefiting from the same nexus could just lift a few more stones than usually. I will reveil that feat much later as it relates to Mara.

Wrong, why would a nexus be so specific as to increase a Sith's power but not direct attack power? That makes no sense.

Originally posted by Arhael
In any case, if we assume that Nexus was empowering them so much that Sidious lightning doesn't compare even to Nyriss and that Nexus affects lightsiders negatively, then it puts Revan and JK God like far above any existing Jedi. Also, it makes Yoda's absorb look child's play. Sorry it doesn't work light that. Sidious lightning rivals Vitiate's and Yoda's absorb is better, than Revan's as demonstrated against Sidious.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6ee7vo0qf1qkpnrw.gif

Hence why I called the Hero of Tython one of the greatest Jedi ever. Defeating Vitiate as she did was ****ing incredible.

I'm confused as to why you find it so impossible that Revan was simply better at Force Absorb than Yoda was. You know that the quote that calls Yoda the greatest foe of darkness has long been rendered invalid right? He's not. Or well he might be. We just dunno.

Originally posted by Arhael
Three of them couldn't resist at all, so they didn't make it any harder for Vitiate. JK was still learning. And powerful Force users are not born that often to put Tol Braga any close to Windu and Yoda league. Kit Fisto was also one of the greatest swordsmen of his era, yet, he dies from first slash.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100329070854/aceattorney/images/c/cf/Shiina-breakdown%28b%29.gif

The fact that those 3 couldn't resist only speaks about the strength of Vitiates lightning. They were all Jedi Knights who had been chosen to be part of the Strike Team against the Sith Emperor, so obviously they would know how to deflect lightning. And Tol Braga is an incredibly powerful Jedi no matter what you think. He once fought a Dark Council Member for 12 days straight before converting him to the lightside. Dude is hardcore.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's your impression. My impression is different. C'baoth handled Luke who was already 9 years Jedi with plenty of feats in background and he didn't even put full effort on Luke alone.

Which doesn't mean that C'baoth is equal to Sidious. Don't assume so much.

Originally posted by Arhael
Random doesn't equate to weak and she was considered one of the strongest witches by others.
And Luke did deflect lightning:
"The young Jedi was at once confounded and in agony -he'd never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it.

But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful - the lightning rebounded from his touch harmlessly into the walls."

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6ee8atkhV1qkpnrw.gif

Non-canon.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, huge improvements are possible over short time, when they just start learning and especially, when they restore connection like Mara. It's proven by Luke, Kyle Katarn, Desann, Corran Horn, Kyp Durron, Jedan Korr and many other characters. But this huge improvement happens only at beginning.

Anakin and Obi-Wan during the Clone Wars say hi.

Originally posted by Arhael
I will give solid prove later, just not ready to give out my joker yet as it relates to Mara as well.
For now you can look at how Palpatine worked at Marek's mind in sidious vs Vitiate thread. He dominated his mind by exposing emotions. And after Marek was brougt back to his senses by Bale Organa's shout, he started thinking logically what is wrong and what is right.
Same with Luke. Leia brought him back to his senses by reaching towards him and then he realized all mistakes in his ways and cast off domination himself.
Same with Toll Braga. JK told him that there is always hope and that he needs to fight it, then Braga found strength to break free. Both JK and Braga were given inspiration and inspiration is an emotional thing.
It is indeed all about emotions and thinking. Strong will is not a matter of power, it's a matter of personality and state of mind. Jacen could mentally force even strong Force users to do what he wants, yet, a non-Force sensitive Mandalorian managed to resist him, although, she died as result.

But mental domination by definition is the manipulation of someones thinking and emotions. You'll notice that in all those cases, the person needed someone else to draw them out of their state. And Jacen has never sown that he can read someones mind (force sensitive or not), which is what he was failing to do against her. Him failing just proves that he isn't good at telepathy.

Originally posted by Arhael
Find any thin metal catwalk, strike it with biggest hammer you can find, look at impact. xD
And in SW lightning gives much weaker impact than TK, it's main power is burning.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100329070854/aceattorney/images/c/cf/Shiina-breakdown%28b%29.gif

Lets have a look at a catwalk shall we!

wRY5dl_oxvo

1.30 to 1.59. As we can see it appears that catwalks in SW are made of a thin wire mesh.

Clearly not solid as a rock, eh?

Wrong. And Luckily I have loads of solid evidence to prove it.
Luke killing Slayer with lightning.
Luke defeating two Jensarai with Force blast: "A quick parry with his lightsaber and then a push with the Force and two of them went down hard".
Luke killing bags: "Luke killed the last of Raynar's bodyguards by Force-slamming them into the wall so hard their thoraxes burst"
Luke subduing Thul:
"He used the Force to pin him there, waiting for an answer to his question, watching as the expression in his captive's pained eyes turned from astonishment to anger to calculation.

But when Raynar's free hand rose, it was not to summon the Force lightning that Luke had expected. It was to call his lightsaber back, to attempt to continue the battle that he obviously could no longer win.

It was in that moment that Luke finally decided that the life of Raynar Thul would be spared. He intercepted the weapon and used the Force to pin Raynar's remaining arm against the wall along with the rest of his body"

Luke Force handled even those who he didn't want to kill. Your assumption that he held back against Jacen who he clearly tried to kill right from the first strike is clearly wrong.
Luke didn't subdue Jacen because in fight TK can be countered. When Lomi Plo was overpowering Luke with Force net, he threw a random object at her. When Marek got Force choked, he Force blasted Vader. When Jacen tried to Force snap Jaina's neck, she kicked him. When Abeloth Force choked Vestara, she used Force lightning (but it didn't help though). As you see if one tries to subdue with Force, another can counter it or simply prevent them from concenrating whole fight.


He was wearing vac suit. If it is such a great protection, look at what Marek's Force wave did to storm troopers...
"Then the figure flicked one of his hands, and Luke found himself flying backward, bouncing off YVH droids and tumbling out of control. He reached out in the Force, grabbing at passing hatches, the ceiling, even Raynar himself" - my point is that such blast is way more than enough to kill.

Right after blasting avalance away he had long line of thoughts and she attacked.
"She shouldn't have been able to get near him. He had total mastery, and she was just athletic and fast. He pushed back at her in the Force" - as the result of that thinking he started using TK, he was thinking that BEFORE using TK on her directly, so your point is invalid.

"They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side" - He doesn't think that his Force attacks are weaker than usually, he is surprised that she is able to counter them. Your assumption is unsupported, he was affected only physically.


Maybe that's why, when Force blast didn't work, he Force choked him. In any case I proved you wrong. See above.

C'baoth because of his insanity was getting enraged much more than others.

Not a single source shows lightning disintegrating metal.


Overpowered with held back lightning? :cursing:


Not, you tried to lowball her for inability to defend, when she didn't have lightsaber. Either you didn't know or just trolling. :chair:
As for split attention it is not a fact that lightning requires full effort. Dooku even against 3 nightsisters utilized lightning with TK. In DE comic Palpatine created Force Storm and used lightning.
Luke blocked C'baoth's lightning before and got overpowered by lightning, when attention was split. If C'baoth could unleash stronger lightning, he would do just that instead of throwing rocks at her.


In Drew's books lightning incinirates instantly while it is far from most powerful lightning, in film the most powerful lightning at most knocks unconscious or slowly kills. In Drew's books characters can get Force exhausted from single Force blast or lightning barage, in film they can't. In Drew's books strongest TK exploads metal into million pieces, in film at most bends or breaks things.
In Drew's books old character becomes shell of what he ones been, in film old characters compensate their weakness
with Force with no problems. It all contradicts higher canon, therefore, it is invalid.

And your point has absolutly no weight. Jacen describes her as "fast and athletic". She wrestled Lumya - cyborgs have a lot of srength and she wrestled Jacen who is both stronger as man and stronger in the Force. Age does not affect her ability to use Force.


First, there is huge difference between his and Dooku's and Dooku was master of its use himself.

Second, it is one of the easiest skills to learn. Jacen got angered and nearly killed Verger. Jaina got angered and killed Vong. Luke feared for Jacen life and killed Slayer. I can give more examples of less known characters. As you see the technique doesn't even need to be learned and its strength wholy depends on anger levels.

Now you prove your assumption, all facts support my view.

And you know why you think it? Because you try to apply Drew's rules to things portrayed with Lucas rules, when it supposed to be other way around. Yoda clearly tried to absorb lightning, failed and suffered its impact. Palpatine clearly was giving Windu at least most of his power and his lightning sent Windu flying hell lot of a distance.
You assume that Palpatine held back on Luke but his lightning looked much more intensive and purplish than Dooku's at any time.
But you judge by Drew's portrayal making assumptions for every single case. And because of Drew's portrayal you assume that in every other source written by different author (that portrays Force complitly differently) every time, if lightning doesn't incinirates, it means that they are not as strong or hold back. The simple trurh is that every author tries to portray their characters as strongest in mythos. Both Vitiate and C'baoth are far above Palpatine from films. In fact only direct canon statements of Lucas prevent us from assuming those characters the most powerful.


Maybe because focused attack equals to their potential, which is always the same. With nexus instead of 10 powerful exertion they can make 100 without getting exhausted. If you have more candies on you than usually, it doesn't mean that you will be capable to eat them faster :banana: Look at Vitiate. Did he really change after consuming planet? He dominated 100s Sith Lord prior to consuming. Absorbing planet didn't make him god like. All he got is immortality. JK still managed to defeat him. And Palpatine is still the most powerful without consuming planets.
Overally there seem to be different types of nexuses. Some affect emotionally. Kyle Katarn got corrupted by Dromund Kaas, yet, Mara - his apprentice came there, fended off all his attacks and he couldn't do anything to her. Do we conclude that Mara is far superior than Kyle who is considered powerhouse himself because she was better than him on darkside nexus?
Some nexuses give power directly but they benefit both Jedi and Sith.
And two nexuses created Abeloth...

The fact that those 3 couldn't resist only speaks about the strength of Vitiates lightning. They were all Jedi Knights who had been chosen to be part of the Strike Team against the Sith Emperor, so obviously they would know how to deflect lightning. And Tol Braga is an incredibly powerful Jedi no matter what you think. He once fought a Dark Council Member for 12 days straight before converting him to the lightside. Dude is hardcore.
Whatever you say 3 of them gave as much difference as Kit Fisto and Tol Braga in his prime resisted lightning less than inexperienced JK. They are anything but powerful.

Jacen mentally applied pressure at Ganner Rysode that he even started running away. When Aurora Sing tried to kill Alana, he mentally Forced her not to do that.

Ehh... you finally Forced me to use my joker.
As I said mind domination is all about state of mind: emotions, memories and thoughts. No matter how powerful character is, his WILL can still be very weak and no Force power will help him. So yes, even the most powerful Revan could be weak minded at the time he encountered Vitiate first time.
Proof:
"Then Nyax drove another thought into Luke's brain: Kill Tahiri.

This time, Luke was ready for it. He'd had a moment to center his thoughts and, most important, emotions. He was ready with his memories of Tahiri, all the times he'd been delighted as she'd made another gain in her study of the Force, all the hopes he'd had for her future and happiness. He could hold up like a shield his memory of her love for his nephew Anakin Solo. All those memories blunted Nyax's attack, shattered its speartip.
"
And now tell me what good memories Revan had at that time apart from war.
Also, JK had love interest, so he scores a point comparing to ALL other Jedi following famous no attachment rule.

Thin wire that can withhold FAR greater weight than human body, not to mention solid metal on sides. You are clearly trolling me but I can do that too. ;D

Imagine cat walk with thin wire from ROCK.
Also, lightsaber singed metal bulks and lightsaber >>>> whatever lightning, so C'baoth's lightning == lightsaber.

Originally posted by Arhael
Wrong. And Luckily I have loads of solid evidence to prove it.
Luke killing Slayer with lightning.

He had to create a lightside-variation of Force lightning in order to do that, and it was the only Force power that actually worked on the Vong.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke defeating two Jensarai with Force blast: "A quick parry with his lightsaber and then a push with the Force and two of them went down hard".

Going down doesn't mean dead. Otherwise I would have killed Nemebro like 5 times last night.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke killing bags: "Luke killed the last of Raynar's bodyguards by Force-slamming them into the wall so hard their thoraxes burst"

Eh, they're just bugs. Plus thats the exception rather than the rule.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke subduing Thul:
"He used the Force to pin him there, waiting for an answer to his question, watching as the expression in his captive's pained eyes turned from astonishment to anger to calculation.

But when Raynar's free hand rose, it was not to summon the Force lightning that Luke had expected. It was to call his lightsaber back, to attempt to continue the battle that he obviously could no longer win.

It was in that moment that Luke finally decided that the life of Raynar Thul would be spared. He intercepted the weapon and used the Force to pin Raynar's remaining arm against the wall along with the rest of his body"

Raynor was going to continue the fight. Using the Force to subdue him was the only way to stop him non-lethally.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke Force handled even those who he didn't want to kill. Your assumption that he held back against Jacen who he clearly tried to kill right from the first strike is clearly wrong.

Luke didn't subdue Jacen because in fight TK can be countered.

When Lomi Plo was overpowering Luke with Force net, he threw a random object at her. When Marek got Force choked, he Force blasted Vader. When Jacen tried to Force snap Jaina's neck, she kicked him. When Abeloth Force choked Vestara, she used Force lightning (but it didn't help though). As you see if one tries to subdue with Force, another can counter it or simply prevent them from concenrating whole fight.

It can be countered, not it will be countered. Luke already used the Force to easily subdue Jacen even while Jacen was trying to counter him. If the Force is that easy to counter, how did he do that? This undeniably proves that Luke could have overpowered Jacen if he was so inclined. Truculent is right, Luke held back because he didn't want Ben seeing his "Master" killed.

Vitiate has been beating Sith Lords for over a thousand years with just the Force, without using a lightsaber. If the Force was that easy to counter do you think he'd still be in power? Hell, Vitiate killed his Sith Lord father with the Force as a child. If the Force was that easy to counter, how could he do that? Your argument is full of crap.

Originally posted by Arhael
He was wearing vac suit. If it is such a great protection, look at what Marek's Force wave did to storm troopers...
"Then the figure flicked one of his hands, and Luke found himself flying backward, bouncing off YVH droids and tumbling out of control. He reached out in the Force, grabbing at passing hatches, the ceiling, even Raynar himself" - my point is that such blast is way more than enough to kill.

That's non-canon since it only happened in a trailer.

What exactly is the point of this again? Weren't you suggesting that Force Users have a resistance to TK? Well that's bullshit because the TK isn't doing any damage to Luke, all its doing is throwing him backwards. Its the wall that would have killed him.


Originally posted by Arhael
Right after blasting avalance away he had long line of thoughts and she attacked.
"She shouldn't have been able to get near him. He had total mastery, and she was just athletic and fast. He pushed back at her in the Force" - as the result of that thinking he started using TK, he was thinking that BEFORE using TK on her directly, so your point is invalid.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100330012826/aceattorney/images/5/57/Kristoph_Laugh.gif

Haha, wrong. Jacen was flummoxed that she could even get near him. Why do you think that is? What methods does Jacen have to insure that Mara can't get near him. TK. Jacen was just surprised that he'd been hurt enough that Mara could get close to him without him reacting and pushing her back with TK.

Originally posted by Arhael
"They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side" - He doesn't think that his Force attacks are weaker than usually, he is surprised that she is able to counter them. Your assumption is unsupported, he was affected only physically.

Thanks for supporting my argument. He was surprised because he should have been able to overpower her. Jacen knows what Mara can do, he's trained around her and known her his entire life. Hell, I think he even fought her in Betrayal. That he's surprised by her only says that he was suffering.

Originally posted by Arhael
C'baoth because of his insanity was getting enraged much more than others.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not a single source shows lightning disintegrating metal.

I never said there was. Now answer my other point.

Originally posted by Arhael
Overpowered with held back lightning? :cursing:

That's just how powerful Vitiate is.

Although there is the other possibility that they resisted enough to lessen the power of the lightning. But he still wanted to capture them, not kill them.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not, you tried to lowball her for inability to defend, when she didn't have lightsaber. Either you didn't know or just trolling. :chair:
As for split attention it is not a fact that lightning requires full effort. Dooku even against 3 nightsisters utilized lightning with TK. In DE comic Palpatine created Force Storm and used lightning.
Luke blocked C'baoth's lightning before and got overpowered by lightning, when attention was split. If C'baoth could unleash stronger lightning, he would do just that instead of throwing rocks at her.

I never said that it requires someones full attention, just that it would obviously be less effective if you had to focus on something else while doing it.

Originally posted by Arhael
In Drew's books lightning incinirates instantly while it is far from most powerful lightning,

Er, bullshit much? Drew has only used it twice, both times to signify that the character is incredibly powerful.

Originally posted by Arhael
In Drew's books characters can get Force exhausted from single Force blast or lightning barage, in film they can't.

No they can't. That's never happened.

Originally posted by Arhael
In Drew's books strongest TK exploads metal into million pieces, in film at most bends or breaks things.

It does that in other texts as well.

Originally posted by Arhael
In Drew's books old character becomes shell of what he ones been, in film old characters compensate their weakness
with Force with no problems. It all contradicts higher canon, therefore, it is invalid.

I'm pretty sure that never happened either. Bane wasn't as spry as he used to be maybe, but he still compensated and kicked major ass. If anything he was stronger. None of what you said were contradictions. None of it is invalid.


Originally posted by Arhael
First, there is huge difference between his and Dooku's and Dooku was master of its use himself.

I'm not seeing a source that states this.

Originally posted by Arhael
Second, it is one of the easiest skills to learn. Jacen got angered and nearly killed Verger. Jaina got angered and killed Vong. Luke feared for Jacen life and killed Slayer. I can give more examples of less known characters. As you see the technique doesn't even need to be learned and its strength wholy depends on anger levels.

Now you prove your assumption, all facts support my view.

What assumption? I just asked if Dooku was a master of Force Lightning. Just because it's seems easy to learn and use (Despite the fact that in Path of Destruction it's an advanced Sith Technique that requires multiple training sessions to learn) doesn't mean that its easy to master. None of those characters used it as effectively as Bane, Sidious or Vitiate did, where they could incinerate their opponents with it. They mastered it. Dooku and C'baoth didn't.

Originally posted by Arhael
And you know why you think it? Because you try to apply Drew's rules to things portrayed with Lucas rules, when it supposed to be other way around. Yoda clearly tried to absorb lightning, failed and suffered its impact. Palpatine clearly was giving Windu at least most of his power and his lightning sent Windu flying hell lot of a distance.
You assume that Palpatine held back on Luke but his lightning looked much more intensive and purplish than Dooku's at any time.
But you judge by Drew's portrayal making assumptions for every single case. And because of Drew's portrayal you assume that in every other source written by different author (that portrays Force complitly differently) every time, if lightning doesn't incinirates, it means that they are not as strong or hold back. The simple trurh is that every author tries to portray their characters as strongest in mythos. Both Vitiate and C'baoth are far above Palpatine from films. In fact only direct canon statements of Lucas prevent us from assuming those characters the most powerful.

I do know why I think that. Because it's right.

Yoda didn't try to absorb Sidious' lightning the first time Sidious hit him with it.

Sidious knocked him out of that window with TK, not lightning. Mace was being hit with the lightning for half a dozen seconds before the impact hit him through the window. It could only be from TK.

And has Dooku ever killed anyone with his lightning? For that matter, where did you get the idea that being purple makes the lightning more intense? Besides which, I think Lucas changed Sidious' lightning to blue in the latest edition.

True, Sidious seems unimpressive in the films because of technical difficulties. Novels and comics can make characters do more impressive things not limited by reality. However none of the feats from books or comics that I've used directly contradict the movies. And as such they are still 100% canon.

Originally posted by Arhael
Maybe because focused attack equals to their potential, which is always the same.

No it doesn't, where the hell are you getting that from? A nexus increases the power a Force user has and can use. Dooku was faster and more powerful on Vjun than he was off of it. Nexus' allow uses to perform feats that they couldn't anywhere else. Dathomir, a dark side nexus, was powerful enough that Talzin could create illusory armies there yet not do so on any other world without Dathomir's energies subsisting her powers. Yaving IV was a powerful enough dark side nexus that Exar Kun was capable of casually affecting the physical realm while a disembodied spirit, as he himself stated that his Temples granted him the power that he otherwise lacked on his own to do. Haruun Kal radiated a Force nexus enough that Mace Windu compared Kar Vastor's powers to Yoda or Anakin's, yet Kar was never shown as powerful anywhere else. The ruins of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, another Force nexus, made Lord Nyax so powerful he could effortlessly throw around capital ships. The Valley of the Jedi rendered non-Force sensitive people Force sensitive. The ambient Force energies of Korriban allowed several Sith spirits to manipulate or kill the living even after Korriban's inherent strength in the Force had largely dissipated after millennia.

Originally posted by Arhael
Look at Vitiate. Did he really change after consuming planet?

YES!

Originally posted by Arhael
Whatever you say 3 of them gave as much difference as Kit Fisto and Tol Braga in his prime resisted lightning less than inexperienced JK. They are anything but powerful.

Lol, Kit Fisto is still a powerful Jedi Council Member you loon. You're ignoring what I've said despite all the evidence to the contrary. These were the people the Jedi sent to take the Emperor down. Them not being powerful is impossible.

Originally posted by Arhael
Jacen mentally applied pressure at Ganner Rysode that he even started running away. When Aurora Sing tried to kill Alana, he mentally Forced her not to do that.

Ehh... you finally Forced me to use my joker.
As I said mind domination is all about state of mind: emotions, memories and thoughts. No matter how powerful character is, his WILL can still be very weak and no Force power will help him. So yes, even the most powerful Revan could be weak minded at the time he encountered Vitiate first time.
Proof:
"Then Nyax drove another thought into Luke's brain: Kill Tahiri.

This time, Luke was ready for it. He'd had a moment to center his thoughts and, most important, emotions. He was ready with his memories of Tahiri, all the times he'd been delighted as she'd made another gain in her study of the Force, all the hopes he'd had for her future and happiness. He could hold up like a shield his memory of her love for his nephew Anakin Solo. All those memories blunted Nyax's attack, shattered its speartip.
"
And now tell me what good memories Revan had at that time apart from war.

Very well, conceeded. However, that is not the only way to shield your thoughts, so it hardly matters. Mara herself used a method that didn't require that. Furthermore, Revan was a master of telepathy, as evidenced by him putting knowledge of his language into the minds of the Rakata. Vitiate defeating him using just Telepathy is still impressive.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, JK had love interest, so he scores a point comparing to ALL other Jedi following famous no attachment rule.

That hasn't been established yet. It's entirely possibly to not romance anyone in the game.

Originally posted by Arhael
Thin wire that can withhold FAR greater weight than human body, not to mention solid metal on sides. You are clearly trolling me but I can do that too. ;D

Yet Sidious and Nyriss lightning didn't just break a human body, it completely disintegrated it.

Also WRONG, the human bone is in fact 5 times harder than steel. And Nyriss' lightning ripped right through a Force Barrier and disintegrated Nyriss and her entire skeleton.

And Vitiates lightning is 'infinitely greater' than Nyriss'.

So to sum up: Mara only blocked C'baoth's lightning when he was splitting his attention between lightning and TK, so it wouldn't even have been as powerful as the catwalk splitting lightning he used earlier, which isn't as powerful as Nyriss' lightning let alone Vitiates lightning at all and is in fact far inferior. Therefore Mara has no hope of blocking Vitiates lightning.

Originally posted by Arhael
Imagine cat walk with thin wire from ROCK.
Also, lightsaber singed metal bulks and lightsaber >>>> whatever lightning, so C'baoth's lightning == lightsaber.

That doesn't make any sense.

Take it easy, boys. I've adopted certain philosophy that getting upset or angry over SW debates is stupid, so.

I agree with Neph, though.

This thread continues to be worthwhile only for the gifs that Neph posted. This otherwise pointless debate may proceed if we get some more of that action.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Take it easy, boys. I've adopted certain philosophy that getting upset or angry over SW debates is stupid, so.

I agree with Neph, though.

Pshaw! I'm not angry, although the debate is wearing thin, hence the lack of awesome Phoenix Wright gifs in my latest response.

It's an extreme lack of awesome indeed.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_loy5kk81J81qcef94.gif

My apologies.

On what tumblr do you find all this awesome?

They're all from the video game series Ace Attorney. When I want a gif I just google image search the character. So for Dahlia Hawthorne its 'Dahlia Hawthorne gifs' and presto:

http://www.court-records.net/animation/dahlia-crying%28a%29.gif

http://images.wikia.com/aceattorney/images/c/c3/Dahlia-scary2.gif


The animations for the games just get better as the series goes on. I really can't recommend the series enough. Sadly I don't own a DS so I can't play the later games, but I've watched all the games that have an english translation played through in Lets Plays on youtube. This guy has played through all of them. At the start he's not got great quality, but he improves. The games are more or less visual novels, so it's no real loss.

Ah, I remember when that was released. Never did really look into it. Might have to see what else the DS has produced.

I can recommend:

The World Ends With You

Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective

Chrono Trigger

999: Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 1 & 2 (made by the same guys as Persona 4, my no1 fav game ever)

and Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney, duh.


I, er.... watch a lot of Lets Plays.

And what difference it makes? You just said something for the sake of saying something. And it is dark side power as it kills. In any case it is not the only power that kills Vong. Force lightning and Force net kills them as well. Even Rysode's TK worked on them on reduced scale.

It means he subdued them with TK as they were knoked unconscious. Same he would do to Jacen, if he could.

And it still proves you wrong as other examples I gave.


It proves that if Luke holds back and doesn't want to kill, he subdues with TK. It proves that Luke didn't subdue Jacen in fight because he couldn't.


He got caught off guard by his own admission. But look at his thinking right after Luke stopped pinning him:
"Luke's hand brushed the hilt of his lightsaber, and Caedus thought for a moment that the fight he had been anticipating since Mara's death-anticipating, dreading, and wanting-was finally going to come. He stepped away from the observation bubble, giving himself some maneuvering room in case Luke came at him in a tumbling pass." - Doesn't look like he was bothered by the fact that Luke just pinned him. He still beleived he could win all-out Luke and he definately had both skills and power for that.
Same way Luke pinned Gavar Kai before fight could start, when Gavar's attention was on Ben. But after fight started and Gavar got freed, Luke couldn't do the same to him again. Instead Luke actually went on the defencive blocking Gavar's lightning and couldn't do anytging else until Ben started shooting at Gavar. Again he held back?


"If Luke wanted to finish this-and it seemed like a good idea, given how battered he was himself-he had only a few seconds.

Luke closed to within two meters without saying a word. What point would there have been? Jacen wasn't going to surrender, and Luke wouldn't have believed him if he offered. It was better to attack quickly, while he still had the advantage. He brought his lightsaber up to strike." - Whatever Truculent said, you are both wrong. Luke didn't care about Ben and was determined to finish him. Luke did NOT hold back on Jacen in any way. Jacen is nearly as strong all-out combatant as Luke and despite Luke's sneak attack he inflicted on him equal amount of damage. Your idea of Luke getting battered and crippled and still holding back is retarded.

In Drew's books TK impact shatters all bones and even 6 year old girl viporize hands. Why it didn't happen?

Which only proves that he was slow to react to her attack. But it doesn't prove his TK was weaker. Also, she could simply be faster than he thought. Concern for Ben was driving her beyond limits, hence, making her more powerful than usually.


Or he simply didn't expect her to be THAT strong. He never fought all-out Mara. She never displayed any arcane abilities or impressive TK at front of him. He simply badly underestimated her.


"The whole thing had taken only a few seconds.
...
The blast of lightning had taken everything the old man had in reserve" - Sith that Scourge assasinated got exhausted after few seconds of lightning. That's the most ridiculous thing I ever read.

Bane after blasting Kaz'im:
"Exhausted by the long lightsaber battle and drained by the sudden unleashing of the Force, he simply lay there until he was covered in a layer of fine white powder" -Isn't it rediculous? Marek moved destroyer and still stood on his legs.

Which come not from Lucas either but other authors with their
own portrayal of the Force.
In fact Drew portrayed his characters as by far the strongest in mythos, more than anyone else. Vitiate outshines Palpatine in everything. Sidious in most cases can't rely on Force alone and has to use lightsaber. Thanks to a few other authors that made TFU and DE, where Sidious is able to mind dominate, overpower someone who could move star destroyers, use essence transfer and summon Force Storm (which couldn't even be utilized in combat). If Lucas canon did not state him being the most powerful, people whould laugh out loud on hearing he is more powerful than Vitiate. And you bypass this canon by saying "Sidious isn't the be-all end-all of every technique" and then safely lowball Palpatine's lightning and Yoda's absorb. But his lightning is stronger than Vitate's for simple reason that in films it is the only power that makes him trully stand out. Even best TK is displayed by Dooku and Vader.

Other authors at least make the most powerful villains to be something else like insane Jedi or Abeloth, so not to question Palpatine's status but Drew took things beyond any limits.
In Kotor we have immortal Darth Sion who couldn't even be killed by lightsaber. Then we have Traya that apprenticed him and she wasn't even born, when he was already actively participating in Exar Kun's war. She even aprenticed him second time later on. Serioisly what on earth did he need to learn from her??? Then we have Nihilus who stripped her off the Force, reaped star ship out of mass shadows as well as holded it together and consumed planets. Then we have Meetra that somehow kills all of them. Then she gets casually defeated by Nyriss and she can't even block her lightning with lightsaber. Then Revan casually defeats Nyriss and later after that Meetra's embarrasing performance he says: "I always knew you had great potential, but you have become far greater than I could ever have imagined".wallbash Then Vitiate casually defeats Revan. Then JK defeats Vitiate. And still fans anticipate even more impressive stuff. Seriously, how many power levels in Drew's universe? It is on verge between stupid and idiotic. And you try to take those feats for granted and apply Drew's logic on all other canon.


"All the pieces clicked into place. Nyriss was right: Xedrix was a shell of what he had once been." - The concept that Force reserves of a practicing Sith became ridiculously low because of old age is as idiotic as it could be.


True, they need to learn to throw lightning. Now, please, prove that after they learned to throw lightning, they need to master it.


So, Yoda put his hands at front of him to signify non-violence or it's just some sort of ninja move to show how cool he is? Ausome!

Or Windu just roots himself in one placelig until he dies. In any case here is prove for both that Palpatine didn't hold back and that it was lightning that sent Windu flying:
"and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.
...
Dark lightning blasted away his universe. He fell forever"

Palpatine's lightning in 2004 blu-ray is as purpole as it was. True, color not necessarily signifies intencity. I got that impression because Son has the most purpolish one. In novel Palpatine did hold back on Luke at first but then he made it stronger and then even stronger again. So whether he gave full power by the end or not wholly depends on our assumptions. But because his lightning didn't do anything significant in DE to Luke, I am inclined to think that he had good resistance long before that.

Nyax created tornado but it was still swirling after his death, so it's not like he was spliting his attention on every single rock. Out of curiosity I checked Luke's visit of Dromund Kaas. Nexus was "Extremely powerful". But difference is still minimal. Jedi draw on the same Nexus but it's corruptive nature negatively affects their emotions thus decreases their performance but experienced Jedi seem able to overcome it. Also, Dark side nexuses did not empower in a way neutral ones did. If they did, do you agree that Mara is far more powerful than Katarn? Dooku still couldn't win Yoda, he only showed slightly better performance and ran away.
Also, Jedi Valley did not make sensitive out of non-sensitive. There were crystals that imbued by nexus could be used by non-sensitives to draw on the Force.
And Exar Kun awakened and was getting stronger because of Jedi presence, not darkside nexus.


And Mara has three ways to resist it. Barrier learned by Palpatine, cold analysis and stream of emotions - awarwness of Ben. She was resisting mind domination as good as Luke, which means that like Luke she is immune.


Wrong thread to lowball terminator.
Yes, it is stronger but as "per weight". Metal is much heavier because its molecules are much closer to each other. Metal with equal size is MUCH stronger than bone. Thin catwalk is designed to withstand FAR bigger weight than body. If you hit it with hammer, it will not break like bone, there will only be slight depression in the place of impact. Moreover, metal in general requires far greater temputers to be melted than bone.



"Luke had his lightsaber activated and up in time. The lightning crackled against his glowing blade. The strength behind the attack, of the Hidden One's energy and anger, took Luke off his feet and threw him backward. He slammed into a pillar, feeling jolts of pain in his spine and the back of his head But the lightning did not reach him. His blade kept it at bay. And, bracing himself with the Force, Luke took a step forward.

The Hidden One tossed his head. It was not just a gesture of anger; Luke felt the motion as a ripple in the Force. The air in the chamber responded, a wind springing up and roaring around the walls of the chamber, gaining speed and strength. It tattered the robes of the Kel Dors near the walls as it went. It veered from the wall over the throne and howled down at Luke, engulfing him, trying to drive him backward Luke gritted his teeth and rooted himself. Then, against the might of both wind and lightning, he took another step forward.

The Hidden One's eyes widened. His head rolled around on his shoulders, and the roar of air across Luke intensified. It tore at his robes, causing them to stand out from his body, shudder, and snap in the wind.

The Hidden One's face, flushed fully red, was contorted in a mask of anger. He flicked his fingers and the lightning ceased." - As you see combined lightning with TK makes it only harder to counter, that's why Luke could block C'baoth's but couldn't, when combined with TK.
Also, I take my words back about C'baoth stopping his lightning, when focusing fully on Mara. He didn't wave hands to summon stones, Mara didn't use her second hand to block stones with lightsaber and didn't try to dodge them, which is easier option. Therefore, she was still blocking his lightning with one hand.

1_47KVJV8DU

Originally posted by Nephthys
999: Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors

I was looking for good animes/mangas and somebody recommended this actually, and I also have a DS, heard it's really good. What would you is better out of this and Persona, for a good anime inspired story?

Persona.

But Persona 4 is my favourite game of all time so I might be a bit biased.

Originally posted by Arhael
And what difference it makes? You just said something for the sake of saying something. And it is dark side power as it kills. In any case it is not the only power that kills Vong. Force lightning and Force net kills them as well. Even Rysode's TK worked on them on reduced scale.

I was referring to Emerald Lightning. Aren't you referring to the time when Luke sent green sparks coruscating over the body of a Slayer, instantly killing him and causing his body to convulse?

Either way, lightning was the only Force Power that properly worked on them. And according to Wookiepedia Luke used it to save Jacen and Jaina from Slayers. Its probable that he only did it because he couldn't get there in time and needed to use the Force. And as Force Lightning is the only thing that works on Vong....

Originally posted by Arhael
It means he subdued them with TK as they were knoked unconscious. Same he would do to Jacen, if he could.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6e02wTlNG1qkpnrw.gif

Originally posted by Arhael
It proves that if Luke holds back and doesn't want to kill, he subdues with TK. It proves that Luke didn't subdue Jacen in fight because he couldn't.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m62sgnFuiB1qkpnrw.gif

Despite the fact that Luke has already easily subdued him previously?

Originally posted by Arhael
He got caught off guard by his own admission.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m62sgnFuiB1qkpnrw.gif

Which doesn't explain why he couldn't break Luke's hold on him despite attempting to stand up multiple times. By Jacen's own words: 'The irony of the statement was far from lost on Caedus, but he was too astonished-and too frightened-to take any pleasure in it. While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.'

Originally posted by Arhael
But look at his thinking right after Luke stopped pinning him:
"Luke's hand brushed the hilt of his lightsaber, and Caedus thought for a moment that the fight he had been anticipating since Mara's death-anticipating, dreading, and wanting-was finally going to come. He stepped away from the observation bubble, giving himself some maneuvering room in case Luke came at him in a tumbling pass." - Doesn't look like he was bothered by the fact that Luke just pinned him. He still beleived he could win all-out Luke and he definately had both skills and power for that.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5fa36FHfA1qkpnrw.gif

Recall that Jacen was insane.

Originally posted by Arhael
Same way Luke pinned Gavar Kai before fight could start, when Gavar's attention was on Ben. But after fight started and Gavar got freed, Luke couldn't do the same to him again.

Couldn't or didn't? Theres a very big difference. We can't just assume that because someone doesn't do something that they can't do it.

Originally posted by Arhael
"If Luke wanted to finish this-and it seemed like a good idea, given how battered he was himself-he had only a few seconds.

Luke closed to within two meters without saying a word. What point would there have been? Jacen wasn't going to surrender, and Luke wouldn't have believed him if he offered. It was better to attack quickly, while he still had the advantage. He brought his lightsaber up to strike." - Whatever Truculent said, you are both wrong. Luke didn't care about Ben and was determined to finish him. Luke did NOT hold back on Jacen in any way. Jacen is nearly as strong all-out combatant as Luke and despite Luke's sneak attack he inflicted on him equal amount of damage. Your idea of Luke getting battered and crippled and still holding back is retarded.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6sxkbmgqR1r114e6.gif

Good point! However, simply because Luke was resigned to killing Jacen in the end doesn't mean that he wanted to do it or that he was going to kill him with TK. Remember that Luke had already subdued Jacen with the Force when he surprised him last time, and in that fight too Luke surprised Jacen as well. If Luke had attacked him with the Force rather than leap at him he could have beaten him pretty ****ing easily. Afterall if Luke can push Jacen several meters backwards and into his chair before Jacen can react then surely he can snap his neck before he can react as well.

Let me introduce you to the wonderful world of PIS, Plot Induced Stupidity. Luke could have beaten Jacen easily, even if they actually were close in terms of combat, which I think is bullshit, but didn't because that would have spoiled the plot. Your point is meaningless because Luke didn't defeat Jacen with the Force not because he couldn't, as I've shown you he easily could have, but because the writer didn't want him to.

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.

Originally posted by Arhael
In Drew's books TK impact shatters all bones and even 6 year old girl viporize hands. Why it didn't happen?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6e0jo9rM51qkpnrw.gif

I guess Raynar just wasn't as powerful as an untrained 6 year old girl.

..... Or Raynar just wasn't trying to kill him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which only proves that he was slow to react to her attack. But it doesn't prove his TK was weaker. Also, she could simply be faster than he thought. Concern for Ben was driving her beyond limits, hence, making her more powerful than usually.

No, but the other evidence I've provided does. And lol, you can't become more powerful than usual just by wanting to be.

Originally posted by Arhael
Or he simply didn't expect her to be THAT strong. He never fought all-out Mara. She never displayed any arcane abilities or impressive TK at front of him. He simply badly underestimated her.

Which is ridiculous because as I've said he should know precisely how strong she is. And don't be ridiculous, Jacen has know Mara throughout his entire life. If nothing else he would have seen her training at the Jedi Temple.

Basically her resisting him is null and void because Jacen was too badly hurt for use to say that his abilities weren't affected. You'll never be able to prove that she resisted him because she's just that strong because of the circumstances of the fight were such that Jacen was likely nowhere near his usual powers making it impossible to accurately judge how impressive resisting him actually was.

Originally posted by Arhael
"The whole thing had taken only a few seconds.
...
The blast of lightning had taken everything the old man had in reserve" - Sith that Scourge assasinated got exhausted after few seconds of lightning. That's the most ridiculous thing I ever read.

You need to read some more things.

It explained why he was so weak. Age had crippled him. Not everyone is Yoda.

Originally posted by Arhael
Bane after blasting Kaz'im:
"Exhausted by the long lightsaber battle and drained by the sudden unleashing of the Force, he simply lay there until he was covered in a layer of fine white powder" -Isn't it rediculous? Marek moved destroyer and still stood on his legs.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6e02wTlNG1qkpnrw.gif

Not at all. Bane had just fought an exhausting lightsaber fight and blown up an entire temple. Not everyone is mother****ing Galen Marek and can keep going for stupidly long periods of time.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which come not from Lucas either but other authors with their
own portrayal of the Force.

So now you want to invalidate all portrayals of the Force that aren't 'in line' with Lucas'? GTFOutta here!

Originally posted by Arhael
In fact Drew portrayed his characters as by far the strongest in mythos, more than anyone else. Vitiate outshines Palpatine in everything.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6lv93fdv61qkpnrw.gif

Not in lightsabers.

Originally posted by Arhael
Sidious in most cases can't rely on Force alone and has to use lightsaber. Thanks to a few other authors that made TFU and DE, where Sidious is able to mind dominate, overpower someone who could move star destroyers, use essence transfer and summon Force Storm (which couldn't even be utilized in combat). If Lucas canon did not state him being the most powerful, people whould laugh out loud on hearing he is more powerful than Vitiate.

No they wouldn't. Sidious has plenty that give him the goods to back up his claims.

Originally posted by Arhael
And you bypass this canon by saying "Sidious isn't the be-all end-all of every technique" and then safely lowball Palpatine's lightning and Yoda's absorb.

I'm not bypassing jack shit. You've been the one lowballing Sidious' lightning and suggesting that its not as powerful as Nyriss'. I've been providing arguments for why thats not the case. You've just been trying to put words in my mouth by saying that my thinking that Nyriss' lightning is powerful somehow contradicts Sidious' lightning being powerful. Let me say this clearly: It's ****ing retarded.

Originally posted by Arhael
But his lightning is stronger than Vitate's for simple reason that in films it is the only power that makes him trully stand out.

http://images.wikia.com/aceattorney/images/0/0d/Von_Karma_Breakdown_2.gif

Well that's certainly some compelling 'proof' right there.

Originally posted by Arhael
Other authors at least make the most powerful villains to be something else like insane Jedi or Abeloth, so not to question Palpatine's status but Drew took things beyond any limits.
In Kotor we have immortal Darth Sion who couldn't even be killed by lightsaber. Then we have Traya that apprenticed him and she wasn't even born, when he was already actively participating in Exar Kun's war. She even aprenticed him second time later on. Serioisly what on earth did he need to learn from her??? Then we have Nihilus who stripped her off the Force, reaped star ship out of mass shadows as well as holded it together and consumed planets. Then we have Meetra that somehow kills all of them. Then she gets casually defeated by Nyriss and she can't even block her lightning with lightsaber. Then Revan casually defeats Nyriss and later after that Meetra's embarrasing performance he says: "I always knew you had great potential, but you have become far greater than I could ever have imagined".wallbash Then Vitiate casually defeats Revan. Then JK defeats Vitiate. And still fans anticipate even more impressive stuff. Seriously, how many power levels in Drew's universe? It is on verge between stupid and idiotic. And you try to take those feats for granted and apply Drew's logic on all other canon.

You're using ABC logic that doesn't work. Meetra only beat Nihilus because she was a Force Wound, not because she was actually that powerful. Thus this list breaks down.

Originally posted by Arhael
"All the pieces clicked into place. Nyriss was right: Xedrix was a shell of what he had once been." - The concept that Force reserves of a practicing Sith became ridiculously low because of old age is as idiotic as it could be.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6lv8vQwXm1qkpnrw.gif

Meh, its better than the talking mountain on Endor.

Originally posted by Arhael
True, they need to learn to throw lightning. Now, please, prove that after they learned to throw lightning, they need to master it.

Beg pardon? As it is with all techniques, merely possessing it does not mean mastery. Just because I can draw doesn't make me a master artist. That's why there's a difference between a Jedi Master and Jedi Knight.

In the case of Force Lightning there are those who show clearly greater skill with the technique than others. They are the ones we can call the 'Masters' of the technique, because they can use it to its highest degree.

Originally posted by Arhael
So, Yoda put his hands at front of him to signify non-violence or it's just some sort of ninja move to show how cool he is? Ausome!

His hands were already in front of him. He just lifted them slightly in shock.

Originally posted by Arhael
Or Windu just roots himself in one placelig until he dies. In any case here is prove for both that Palpatine didn't hold back and that it was lightning that sent Windu flying:
"and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.
...
Dark lightning blasted away his universe. He fell forever"

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6e02wTlNG1qkpnrw.gif

Windu roots himself in place while being electrocuted? Riiiiiiight. I'm going to put that in the 'Maybe' pile.

The text contradicts the movie and is thus overwritten. Besides, thats from Windu's perspective and he wasn't exactly in the position to accurately judge exactly what Sidious was doing to him, on account of being barbecued at the time.


Originally posted by Arhael
Out of curiosity I checked Luke's visit of Dromund Kaas. Nexus was "Extremely powerful". But difference is still minimal.

Minimal to whom?

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Dark side nexuses did not empower in a way neutral ones did.

What the ****? Yes they do.

Originally posted by Arhael
If they did, do you agree that Mara is far more powerful than Katarn?

No, why the hell would I?

Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku still couldn't win Yoda, he only showed slightly better performance and ran away.

He was empowered you lunatic.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Jedi Valley did not make sensitive out of non-sensitive. There were crystals that imbued by nexus could be used by non-sensitives to draw on the Force.

In the game Jedi Academy, the Sith used the Jedi Valley to empower an army.

Originally posted by Arhael
And Mara has three ways to resist it. Barrier learned by Palpatine, cold analysis and stream of emotions - awarwness of Ben. She was resisting mind domination as good as Luke, which means that like Luke she is immune.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6e02wTlNG1qkpnrw.gif

Immune? She's immune to mind domination? Bull. ****ing. Shit. Just because she can resist it doesn't mean she can successfully resist it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Wrong thread to lowball terminator.
Yes, it is stronger but as "per weight". Metal is much heavier because its molecules are much closer to each other. Metal with equal size is MUCH stronger than bone. Thin catwalk is designed to withstand FAR bigger weight than body. If you hit it with hammer, it will not break like bone, there will only be slight depression in the place of impact. Moreover, metal in general requires far greater temputers to be melted than bone.

Yes, metal is generally stronger because of the thickness of it and because bones are hollow. However, we're talking about a thin catwalk here. If you made the same catwalk out of solid bone it would hold even more weight than the metal would. And we're not discussing ****ing weight distribution here. We're talking about one man splitting a catwalk and another man disintegrating a human body. Weight has nothing to do with it.

And google disagrees with you on the melting point of bone. Bones do not melt. The term melting is strictly used in Science to represent a change of state from a sold to a liquid state, which isn't possible to do to bones because of what they're composed of. In crematoriums they're usually unable to destroy the bones so they need to take them out of the incinerator and grind them especially.

Originally posted by Arhael
"Luke had his lightsaber activated and up in time. The lightning crackled against his glowing blade. The strength behind the attack, of the Hidden One's energy and anger, took Luke off his feet and threw him backward. He slammed into a pillar, feeling jolts of pain in his spine and the back of his head But the lightning did not reach him. His blade kept it at bay. And, bracing himself with the Force, Luke took a step forward.

The Hidden One tossed his head. It was not just a gesture of anger; Luke felt the motion as a ripple in the Force. The air in the chamber responded, a wind springing up and roaring around the walls of the chamber, gaining speed and strength. It tattered the robes of the Kel Dors near the walls as it went. It veered from the wall over the throne and howled down at Luke, engulfing him, trying to drive him backward Luke gritted his teeth and rooted himself. Then, against the might of both wind and lightning, he took another step forward.

The Hidden One's eyes widened. His head rolled around on his shoulders, and the roar of air across Luke intensified. It tore at his robes, causing them to stand out from his body, shudder, and snap in the wind.

The Hidden One's face, flushed fully red, was contorted in a mask of anger. He flicked his fingers and the lightning ceased." - As you see combined lightning with TK makes it only harder to counter, that's why Luke could block C'baoth's but couldn't, when combined with TK.

That's what you got from that? Luke resists it anyway. It doesn't show him struggling more against the wind and the lightning than it does against just the lightning. What the hell are you smoking?

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, I take my words back about C'baoth stopping his lightning, when focusing fully on Mara. He didn't wave hands to summon stones, Mara didn't use her second hand to block stones with lightsaber and didn't try to dodge them, which is easier option. Therefore, she was still blocking his lightning with one hand.

I have no idea what you're talking about, but I assume its stupid anyway.

I saw.... SOOOO many things wrong. Thank you Neph.




Btw, one thing every Sith Lord past Vader learned is you don't f*ck with Luke Skywalker. You just don't.

Originally posted by Pwned
I saw.... SOOOO many things wrong. Thank you Neph.

All Hail Emperor Nephthys, Hero of the People!

http://codegeasstheanime.weebly.com/uploads/9/1/3/2/9132881/757440_orig.jpg

jk plz don't worship me

If I could put up a cookie, I would. You sir, deserve one.

+1 cookie, and +1 intarnetz for you Neph. Congrats.




Nice with the picture. Nice.

I was referring to Emerald Lightning.
Yes. And I consider it darkside power.
And you are right, he did it to save Jacen.


Yes, despite that fact.
"He slammed into the far wall of the grotto and remained there, pinned in place by the invisible hand of the Force.
“Days ago, Gavar, you might have had a chance to succeed...
...
Ben was vaguely aware of his own father diving toward the far side of the cavern, and the delicate clinkle
of Gavar Khai’s shikkar shattering on the stone floor behind him." - as you see while Luke holded Gavar pinned, he still could use TK and even as embarassing parody of Sith as Gavar Khai could break from Luke's grip. Same way Marek was Force choked but was able to Force blast Vader. I gave you many examples of how they counter TK. Even Force choke can be countered and it is much worse than Force pinning.


Explanation is rather easy. First, it wasn't fight. Second, he was scared. Third, as you pointed out he tried to stand up but he didn't try to use TK to attack Luke. He wouldn't dare to provoke fight by Force blasting Luke or throwing object at him. Jacen is not an idiot to attack Luke and turn against him entire Order in doing so.


I agree, Luke could try it on Jacen again but he is not stupid because Jacen would find a way to counter it. When Jacen was entangled by vines, he toppled a fixture on Luke, same he could do, if Luke pinned him. As I proved above Force pinning doesn't subue Force powers and at that point Jacen didn't want to iniciate fight.

"
Wrong, he wanted to kill him from the beginning:
"Bad mistake.

Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang. Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-

-which Jacen ducked"

By your logic we need to consider all Jedi holding back. Also, Luke's superior TK doesn't prove he could snap his neck. Jacen's TK is superior to Jaina's, yet, when he tried to snap her neck, she rotated along with it and kicked him.


Can't prove your assumption, start blaming author. Ausome!

They are VERY close in terms of combat:
"Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-

-which Jacen ducked. He came up under Luke's guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing Luke struck again with his lightsaber, using both hands and putting all his strength into the attack, beating his nephew's guard down so far that Jacen's emerald blade bit into his own shoulder. Jacen kicked at Luke's legs, catching the side of a knee. Something popped and Luke felt himself going down." - Being able to penetrate Luke's defences with kicks and punches on several occasions and crippling his leg is nothing short of impressive.

Or you keep ignoring the fact that those characters are written by different authors that have completly different understanding of what the Force can and cannot do.

ALL evidence you provided shows that he felt pain and NO evidence shows that his TK was weaker than usually.


Wrong, with right circumstances they can. Mara at that point was driven by concern for Ben. When Luke was driven by concern for Ben, he outwrestled Abeloth twice.
When Anakin was driven by concern for Kenobi and Ashoka, he subdued both Son and Daughter simultabiously, yet, couldn't do a thing to Son later.



Windu considered strike team his equals, even was sparring with Agen Kolar equally in Jedi Temple. Jacen never fought all out with Mara and she NEVER fought a single Sith in his presence to evaluate even relatively how strong she can be.
Jacen together with Lumya assumed that he is more powerful than even Luke, so nothing surpicing of him to underestimate Mara.


And you still can't prove that his Force abilities were affected. He was affected only physically. So Mara's feat is not void. In contrary there are plenty proves that he gets stronger from pain or at least ignores prior to fight with her. Evidence is on my side, like it or not.


Yet, he overpowered Scourge, which is laughable. As I said only in Drew's book.
And yes, not everyone is Yoda or
Kenobi, or Strinn - Luke's oldest student, not everyone.
Age doesn't reduce Force reserves in other material, only in Drew's books.
Non-practising reduces reserves but not age.


I guess Kenobi was so much beyond Bane that he fought such a long fight with Anakin, had TK contest and fought even longer after.
In other material characters get exhausted by channeling Force, not by giving it all out in an instant blast or 2 sec of lightning.


No, I want you to consider differences and stop assuming that Vitiate is infinitively more powerful than everyone simply because author makes it look like that.


Which will never be as good as dominating a Sith Lord and taking over planet's control in childhood, dominating hundreds Sith Lords and consuming planet, live over thousand years and defeating five "powerful" Jedi simultaniously without lightsaber.


And your best argument was that Sidious held back in the movie eveytime. Your opinion is clearly influenced by other authors, specifically Drew.


Force wound didn't make her equally powerful or him equally weakened.


Oh...
A Force user learns to lift objects. Overtime he learns to lift heavier objects. But it is not his TK skill grows, it's because his attunment to the Force/power grows.
Same way Luke learned mnemoteraphy. He tried it only on a small scale by removing single memory and never tried on big scale. Then with that technique he reaped out entire Kallista's essence out of Abeloth and got exhausted as result.
Same way both Luke's and Jaina's first lightning experience was so strong that killed Vong in each case.
Corran horn learned absorbing and never tried to absorb anything stronger than hot water or a blaster bolt. Then one day he absorbed explosion of multiple detonators in one go.

As you see ones Force users learn a technique, its strength utterly depends on their power.

So Sidious and Vitiate had strongest lightning not because they mastered it but because they had far greater power than others.

It doesn't contradict at that point. If we don't take it into account, then Vaapad and everything else goes into garbage as well. In any case I will value opinion of legitimate author above yours.

In any case Lightning gives impact. It knocked backward Anakin in II and Yoda in III.
Your assumption is unsupported entirely.


Either you admit that Mara is far above Kyle or that darkside nexuses don't make much difference. You can't have both


And he still couldn't overpower with Force or outskill.

That army was Force sensitive. Valley gave them fast way to reach full potential. Same did Kyle, so instead of months it took him days to fully restore connection.

Nyax's mental power is far beyond your Vitiate. He briefly mind dominated even prime Luke, who broke free from Palpatine's domination. And Mara showed equally strong resistance in that struggle. So I say she IS immune to domination of Vitiate level.

Thin catwalk with solid and thick metal on sides along the catwalk.


Thank you for pointing out my and author's lack of physics knowledge.

Me smoking?
Luke struggles against lightning, then Hidden One makes it harder for him with wind, it even says that Luke as responce "rooted himself" and "Then, against the might of both wind and lightning, he took another step forward". It clearly shows that he had to struggle more. Hidden One did not utilize lightning combined with wind for fun sake.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes. And I consider it darkside power.
And you are right, he did it to save Jacen.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/franziska-clench%28a%29.gif

Foolish fool spouting foolishly foolish things, as I expected from a foolish fool such as you. It's a lightside variation of Force Lightning, as was discovered by Plo Koon shortly before he froze his 6th creek that week. Like a fool.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, despite that fact.
"He slammed into the far wall of the grotto and remained there, pinned in place by the invisible hand of the Force.
“Days ago, Gavar, you might have had a chance to succeed...
...
Ben was vaguely aware of his own father diving toward the far side of the cavern, and the delicate clinkle
of Gavar Khai’s shikkar shattering on the stone floor behind him." - as you see while Luke holded Gavar pinned, he still could use TK and even as embarassing parody of Sith as Gavar Khai could break from Luke's grip. Same way Marek was Force choked but was able to Force blast Vader. I gave you many examples of how they counter TK. Even Force choke can be countered and it is much worse than Force pinning.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/franziska-scorn%28a%29.gif

That's funny I have it on good authority from the Magnificent Gideon that Gavar is pretty ****ing powerful. As I recall the man was able to resist Abeloth at one point like a boss, so him resisting Luke is hardly a shitty feat for Luke.

Originally posted by Arhael
Explanation is rather easy. First, it wasn't fight. Second, he was scared. Third, as you pointed out he tried to stand up but he didn't try to use TK to attack Luke. He wouldn't dare to provoke fight by Force blasting Luke or throwing object at him. Jacen is not an idiot to attack Luke and turn against him entire Order in doing so.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/franziska-tisk%28a%29.gif
What a foolish thing to say, you fool. First, Jacen has goddamn precognition (the ability to see the future) that should have allowed him to foresee Lukes attack unless Luke blocked it. Secondly, he wasn't scared until after Luke had already pwned him. Thirdly the point is that Luke had beaten him and pinned him to a chair and was continuing to hold him down without any effort whatsoever. Furthermore, the fact that Jacen did try to stand up shows that he would have tried to throw off the hold at one point.

Originally posted by Arhael
I agree, Luke could try it on Jacen again but he is not stupid because Jacen would find a way to counter it. When Jacen was entangled by vines, he toppled a fixture on Luke, same he could do, if Luke pinned him. As I proved above Force pinning doesn't subue Force powers and at that point Jacen didn't want to iniciate fight.

A foolish claim from a foolish fool such as you. It begs for proof that Jacen could counter Luke's TK, as he has never been able to do so. As I recall at one point Luke begins to dismantle Jacen's StealthX with the Force while Jacen is inside it, while flying himself, with Jacen unable to stop it, after Luke had already made Jacen look like a moron with illusions. Luke kicks Jacen's ass with the Force so many times and so easily in that series it becomes funny.

Futhermore, I Luke could have just killed him, he didn't need to subdue him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Wrong, he wanted to kill him from the beginning:
"Bad mistake.

Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang. Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-

-which Jacen ducked"

http://www.court-records.net/animation/franziska-clench%28a%29.gif
That isn't the beginning of the fight, you fool.

Furthermore as I pointed out Luke had the opportunity to pwn Jacen with the Force and he didn't do it.

Originally posted by Arhael
By your logic we need to consider all Jedi holding back. Also, Luke's superior TK doesn't prove he could snap his neck. Jacen's TK is superior to Jaina's, yet, when he tried to snap her neck, she rotated along with it and kicked him.

Well it is a part of the Jedi Code that was introduced in 32 BBY that:

Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.
Jedi respect all life, in any form.
Jedi serve others, rather than rule over them, for the good of the galaxy.
Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training.

So it isn't as foolish as you may think, foolish as you are. And Jaina was able to do that because she was close enough to do it and because she knew he was using the Force on her. Luke completely had the drop on Jacen and could have broken his neck before he could react easily.

Originally posted by Arhael
Can't prove your assumption, start blaming author. Ausome!

http://www.court-records.net/animation/franziska-bow.gif

Originally posted by Arhael
They are VERY close in terms of combat:
"Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-

-which Jacen ducked. He came up under Luke's guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing Luke struck again with his lightsaber, using both hands and putting all his strength into the attack, beating his nephew's guard down so far that Jacen's emerald blade bit into his own shoulder. Jacen kicked at Luke's legs, catching the side of a knee. Something popped and Luke felt himself going down." - Being able to penetrate Luke's defences with kicks and punches on several occasions and crippling his leg is nothing short of impressive.

Nah.

Originally posted by Arhael
Or you keep ignoring the fact that those characters are written by different authors that have completly different understanding of what the Force can and cannot do.

I recognise that there will be certain differences between authors. But if you think that I'm going to let you try to handwave away feats by claiming that its just artistic differences you have another ****ing thing coming fool.

Originally posted by Arhael
ALL evidence you provided shows that he felt pain and NO evidence shows that his TK was weaker than usually.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/franziska-scorn%28a%29.gif

Other than the fact that he couldn't even overpower Mara Jade.

You still haven't established why that would be an impressive feat btw. You utterly failed to show me Jacen do anything impressive with TK thet would make me think that Mara resisting him makes it conceivable that she could resist Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
Wrong, with right circumstances they can. Mara at that point was driven by concern for Ben. When Luke was driven by concern for Ben, he outwrestled Abeloth twice.
When Anakin was driven by concern for Kenobi and Ashoka, he subdued both Son and Daughter simultabiously, yet, couldn't do a thing to Son later.

Anakin subdued them because he drew on the power of Mortis, which was the center of the Force or something. he can't reach that level simply out of concern. He's saved those he loves multiple times without going Super Saiyan on everythings asses.

Originally posted by Arhael
Windu considered strike team his equals, even was sparring with Agen Kolar equally in Jedi Temple. Jacen never fought all out with Mara and she NEVER fought a single Sith in his presence to evaluate even relatively how strong she can be.
Jacen together with Lumya assumed that he is more powerful than even Luke, so nothing surpicing of him to underestimate Mara.

Say whatever you want, Jacen should be able to know how powerful someone is who he's known for his entire life.

When did Jacen think he was superior to Luke? I don't recall that ever happening. I think you just made that up.

Originally posted by Arhael
And you still can't prove that his Force abilities were affected. He was affected only physically. So Mara's feat is not void. In contrary there are plenty proves that he gets stronger from pain or at least ignores prior to fight with her. Evidence is on my side, like it or not.

And being affected physically would affect his Force powers. It slows down his reactions and makes it harder for him to react to thing. It makes it harder for him to focus his power and use his power. When Luke was physically emaciated in a recent novel his abilities were affected. When Bane was dying from poison he needed to slaughter a family just to get enough Force energy to continue moving. You yourself have posted proof that physical age can cripple a Force user.

And if his abilities weren't affected and his best effort in TK really is struggling to push some rubble off himself and being unable to beat Mara Jade with his TK then this discussion doesn't even have a point because he'd be pathetic in TK anyway.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yet, he overpowered Scourge, which is laughable. As I said only in Drew's book.
And yes, not everyone is Yoda or Kenobi, or Strinn - Luke's oldest student, not everyone.
Age doesn't reduce Force reserves in other material, only in Drew's books.
Non-practising reduces reserves but not age.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/franziska-clench%28a%29.gif

Drews books are canon no matter what you think. Cry me a river if you think its so bad.

Lucas himself said that Kenobi was affected by his age btw. So theres a G-canon precident.

Originally posted by Arhael
I guess Kenobi was so much beyond Bane that he fought such a long fight with Anakin, had TK contest and fought even longer after.

No not really. We can't know how long Bane and Kas'im actually fought since its ambiguous in the text and Kenobi never exerted himself in the Force as much as Bane did. Bane put everything he had into that attack.

Originally posted by Arhael
In other material characters get exhausted by channeling Force, not by giving it all out in an instant blast or 2 sec of lightning.

Then I guess that Sith guy must be non-canon.

You're ridiculous.

Originally posted by Arhael
No, I want you to consider differences and stop assuming that Vitiate is infinitively more powerful than everyone simply because author makes it look like that.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/franziska-tisk%28a%29.gif
I never said that he was infinitely more powerful than everyone. I said that he was infinitely more powerful than Nyriss, who herself would beat the everloving shit out of Mara.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which will never be as good as dominating a Sith Lord and taking over planet's control in childhood, dominating hundreds Sith Lords and consuming planet, live over thousand years and defeating five "powerful" Jedi simultaniously without lightsaber.

Only a foolish fool such as yourself would think that by foolishly providing arguments for the opposition that it would make their own foolish arguments seem less foolish.

Fine, Vitiates the most powerful Sith Lord in history. I hope you're happy about it. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by Arhael
And your best argument was that Sidious held back in the movie eveytime. Your opinion is clearly influenced by other authors, specifically Drew.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/franziska-bow.gif
I'm sorry that my arguments don't live up to your lofty standards.

Originally posted by Arhael
Force wound didn't make her equally powerful or him equally weakened.

You've clearly not played the actual game or you would know that he was weakened by trying to drain the Exile. And then again by Visas. And he was starving at the time.

Originally posted by Arhael
As you see ones Force users learn a technique, its strength utterly depends on their power.

.... no it doesn't.

Force mastery is just as important as power, if not more important. For all his power Anakin was repeatedly kicked around by Dooku because he simply didn't have an ounce of the latter's mastery of the Force. One of the Sourcebooks flat out says that 'Only intense training, meditation, and study grants one a notable command of the Force.'

Power isn't all-important.

Originally posted by Arhael
So Sidious and Vitiate had strongest lightning not because they mastered it but because they had far greater power than others.

Nonononononononnnoononononnononnnnononnnonnnono........

Originally posted by Arhael


http://www.court-records.net/animation/franziska-bow.gif

Originally posted by Arhael
It doesn't contradict at that point. If we don't take it into account, then Vaapad and everything else goes into garbage as well. In any case I will value opinion of legitimate author above yours.

In any case Lightning gives impact. It knocked backward Anakin in II and Yoda in III.
Your assumption is unsupported entirely.

Yes I know it gives impact, I was the one that said that in the first place.

However it makes no sense for lightning to only have impact 5 seconds after its already hit something.

Just as it makes no sense for lightning to pick Anakin up and smash him sideways into a wall. That was Dooku using TK as well.

Originally posted by Arhael
Either you admit that Mara is far above Kyle or that darkside nexuses don't make much difference. You can't have both.

Or I can say that Katarns abilities were obviously damaged from whatever it is that made him turn to the darkside. I'm guessing mind control.

Originally posted by Arhael
And he still couldn't overpower with Force or outskill.

Because Yoda is just that much better than him.

Originally posted by Arhael
That army was Force sensitive. Valley gave them fast way to reach full potential. Same did Kyle, so instead of months it took him days to fully restore connection.

Were they? I don't recall that ever being said in the game. All it says is that Tavion is empowering her army. Unless she somehow collected an army of Force Sensitives without anyone noticing then I somehow doubt that thats what they were.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nyax's mental power is far beyond your Vitiate. He briefly mind dominated even prime Luke, who broke free from Palpatine's domination. And Mara showed equally strong resistance in that struggle. So I say she IS immune to domination of Vitiate level.

And Luke broke from his domination as well fool, so I don't see how that matters.

Vitiate mentally dominated 100's of Sith Lords. Nigga got game sucka!

Originally posted by Arhael
Thin catwalk with solid and thick metal on sides along the catwalk.

And did the text specify that he broke the thick metal or did it just say 'split the catwalk' without going into any detail?

Oh, I bet it was that last one!

Originally posted by Arhael
Thank you for pointing out my and author's lack of physics knowledge.

:Franziska bow no11191:

Originally posted by Arhael
Me smoking?
Luke struggles against lightning, then Hidden One makes it harder for him with wind, it even says that Luke as responce "rooted himself" and "Then, against the might of both wind and lightning, he took another step forward". It clearly shows that he had to struggle more. Hidden One did not utilize lightning combined with wind for fun sake.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/franziska-whip.gif

No it didn't. He blocked the lightning then started moving forward, so the Hidden One started using wind against him and Luke just rooted himself and kept moving forward. Theres nothing indicating he struggles more against the combined wind and lightning at all. Just because it says 'ZOMG the might of both wind and lightning' doesn't suggest that he struggled, it just specified that he was resisting both.

Foolish fool spouting foolishly foolish things, as I expected from a foolish fool such as you. It's a lightside variation of Force Lightning, as was discovered by Plo Koon shortly before he froze his 6th creek that week. Like a fool.
Plo Kun's lightning didn't kill, it stunned. Jacen's electric judgement didn't kill, it was only stunning and Jacen himself stated that he didn't want to use version of lightning on vong that kills. Luke himself stated that killing with Force directly is the worth abuse of the Force that leads to personality degradation but sadly I can't remember in which book.
In any case open Kotor and you will find that not a single lightside power can kill, the only offensive power can destroy only droids.
"Luke reached out in the Force, bringing his thumb and forefinger together.

Welk's lipless mouth fell open. Dire gurgling sounds began to rise from his throat-and then Luke remembered Alema's sacrifice of the membrosia giver. Had he grown that casual about killing? So accustomed to the power he wielded that he would use it to kill when he had other means to defend himself?

Luke opened his fingers and released Welk.
" - As you see it's not only emotions that determine. lightside/darkside power, it is intention.
Anyway, nice butthurt, no offence taken.

As I showed he did not resist Luke, he threw an object in him to distract his concentration, same can be done by any Force user, when pinned.


Ones again Jacen DID NOT want to fight. He had leverage over Order, it was in his benefit to resolve it without fight.
He tried to stand up but he didn't try to break Luke's concentration. The only way to get freed would be to attack Luke with TK, which he didn't and preferred to talk it out instead.


Let me refresh your memory. Luke never tried to dismantle his stealth X with the Force, it was another stealthX attacking with grappling hooks and Jacen assumed that it was Force:
"he got a glimpse of a StealthX's uneven out-line with two grappling arms extended, and the sense of a Jedi other than Luke.
"
Anyway I showed you evidence that Luke tried to kill Jacen right from the beginning with lightsaber and explained why Luke doesn't Force pin during the fight and even brought you example with Gavar Khai. If you still want to ignore it, fine.

And right at the beginning it says that "He didn't give him any chance to surrender" and struck him in kidney to "to disable in the most painful way possible" but luckily Jacen blocked. Then he got hit in ribs and then tried to cut his head off. Luke tried to kill, what other prove you need?


And he used that opportunity, he Force blasted Jacen into the wall.

If you recognize then stop expecting every character to blow up droids in million pieces. Even Abeloth doesn't have much impressive feats.


Which only shows how strong she is and doesn't put him in a bad way. Remember you saying same thing about Revan, when I said that Nyriss causally got handle by him.
Anyway, funny how you know lowball his TK after arguing so much that his Force abilities were affected.


Sorry, other authors don't portray feats as impressive as Drew. Can't remember any comparably impressive TK feats by Caedus, Luke or any other characters from over 70 novels with Luke and Solo's. The only Luke's impressive feat comes from DE but again what isn't impressive there?


Evidence, please. Assumption = 0. If he used nexus, he would use it again. And it wasn't simple concern.


During real fight characters are driven by emotions. He never got to see her fighting for the sake of Ben in Emperor's hand mode. She did same thing with Lumya but he never got to see that.


Not exactly superior. He had plenty of visions killing Luke in first book of the series. And he expressed his confidence to Lumya:
"Think laterally," Lumiya said gently. "Luke can still take you in a lightsaber fight."

"I'm already a few steps ahead of him. Trust me."

Originally posted by Nephthys
And being affected physically would affect his Force powers. It slows down his reactions and makes it harder for him to react to thing. It makes it harder for him to focus his power and use his power. When Luke was physically emaciated in a recent novel his abilities were affected. When Bane was dying from poison he needed to slaughter a family just to get enough Force energy to continue moving. Luke and Bane didn't go through Verger's training to embrace pain, so it pointless to bring their examples. In fight with Nyax Luke struggled against pain but Tahiri stood up ignoring it. Jacen on getting his hand chopped electrocuted Jaina nearly to death, doesn' look like it affects him at all.


He didn't just pushed, he blasted it, it was even compared to detonation.
Look at Yoda's best TK feat, when he is holding that pillar in AotC. Not as impressive as moving Star Destroyer or exploding droids in million pieces. Even Luke in books never displayed any impressive TK apart from directly handling others.


Very nice.


I've seen him suffering from trying to drain her. But suffering does not equate to being weakened. And, yes, then he was weakened by losing connection with Visas. Whole fight is subject to interpretation. But it doesn't matter, we are still left with Sion and Traya...


Anakin like Kenobi didn't use Force offensively. You even provided Jedi code for that.


I gave you evidence of two characters learning a technique on small scale and later utilizing on beyond any limits.
Now you provide your prove. With TK I agree, they need skill as it can be utilized in all sorts of ways. But if considering single technique like Force push, it will depend utterly on Force attunment. With lightning perhaps they can learn to shoot more precisely but it's intensity depends on their power. And as prove both Luke's and Jaina's first experience killed Vongs.


Switch of your logic and stick to what is in canon:
"This gave Palpatine the opportunity to blast Windu with Force lightning, sending him out a window to his death." - Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia


Whatever opinion suits you, I don't really care anymore.



Read about Hetrir. At least from wookieepedia.



Luke got dominated and was even beakoning Mara to join. And if she wasn't there, he would not break. You value quantity above quality. Vitiate is quantity, Nyax - quality.


Same I could ask about bones as author didn't go in details either.


Nice thinking. By your logic Hidden one was increasing his effort for nothing.

On closer examination it would seem that I misinterpreted your post about Luke dismantling Jacen's StealthX. I can see why you'd think it was the other StealthX's with the grapple arms, but that wouldn't explain why Jacen heard noises inside his ship. Nor would they have ripped his seat out of its runners without doing anything to the rest of the ship. Its pretty obvious that it was Luke using the Force on him, and that is what the text says.

But I can see now that you weren't lying so I withdraw my accusation.

It does seem to be Luke ripping apart his ship though as Jacen thinks that he (Luke) is ripping apart the ship. Plus he attempts to block Luke but utterly fails.

Thats my impression. Heres the whole thing:

'Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push? Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummag-ing furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils. He's ripping the thing apart...

Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest. Pain flared, stopping his breathing. Then he was aware of brilliant white light coming right at him. In the moments before he managed to veer off to starboard, al-most blinded, he got a glimpse of a StealthX's uneven out-line with two grappling arms extended, and the sense of a Jedi other than Luke.

They'd tried to cripple the StealthX and grab him, air-frame and all, right in the middle of the fleet. Brazen; in-credible. He'd never allow anyone but his own apprentice to fly a StealthX again, not even an ordinary pilot. Luke was still close behind, feeling as if he were actually leaning on his shoulder; Caedus switched to raw instinct. He looped around, weaving between cruisers spaced at regular intervals-someone must have picked him up on visual by now, surely? - and then maneuvered to line up the auxiliaries with the Anakin Solo, accelerating. He'd either hit it right or he'd crash, but if the other StealthX tried to take him at this velocity from a head-on intercept it'd rip them both apart.'


The other StealthX was coming at him, not gripping him already. It was all Luke.

Oh, yeah that defiantly indicates Luke was ripping apart the ship.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m74wmjKYeO1rni6mb.gif

I rest my case.

Edit: Also reading the section before that is hilarious for how swelled Caedus' head is. He keeps thinking that no-one could possibly be tricking him with an illusion (which is exactly whats happening) because he 'had complete mastery of the Force.' What a loser.

Objection! That doesn't mean that they're not the same technique! Only that Luke used it better and more powerfully than those two did. Nothing else.

What, Force Choke?
Maybe that's why Luke never used it again. Also, electric judgment wasn't light side power either, Plo Koon refered to it as Force lightning and Order never said it is lightside power either and told him to meditate on it.

Force choke is TK applied on throat. Which is considered darkside power because it makes others suffer or kills. Same way electric judgement makes others suffer or kills.

You called me foolish, yet, I gave my reasoning and canon examples. Now either you give your evidence that it is lightside power or apologize for being unreasonably rude.


You just trapped yourself. Jacen tried to stand up but he didn't try to enter Force contest, he didn't try to use TK AT ALL and if not you, I wouldn't even realize that. Thank you. So in fact there was no Force contest to determine by how far Luke is superior.
In other words your "Luke could easily snap his neck" is only theory.

But let me show how strong Luke can be with offensive TK:
"Luke extended himself toward the glow, slamming his Force presence into Welk. It was like trying to push Qoribu out of orbit. Welk continued to come bringing his blade around in a brazen full-reach attack." - Not very impressive, is it?

And you just confirmed that Jacen didn't try to resist with TK, when Luke pinned him. So that feat is invalid and proves nothing apart from the fact that Jacen was scared to confront him and didn't try to use TK as it would provoke Luke.


"Luke feinted a dash toward his nephew's blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave.

Jacen went flying" - As you see it doesn't prove that Luke's TK is superior. Luke had to feint a move to catch him by surprice. In other words Luke skillfuly caught him off guard. However, Jacen utilized TK on Luke without fainting any moves. And Luke still failed to counter it in any way and slammed facefirst to the floor. But yes, it was just a fixture, nothing impressive as you said...

Ye, it's a good one. But I talk about combat situations. Her TK didn't kill anyone in combat, at most stunned. Her lightning didn't vaporize anyone either, although, the only ones she electrocuted were Corran Horn with absorb like Satele Shan's and Luke.


Because in combat he rivals Luke as he proved. Jaina with her equal potential was getting pawned hard in final combat, while Jacen had only one working arm. Kyle was getting tooled, while having 3 Jedi with him. It's not just his superior power, it is his combat skill combined with that power she feared.


I know all of that. But Jacen has a few comparable feats as well.
Yes, Luke dismantled Fortress. But it was channeing effort. Jacen in comparison toppled sealing on Vongs burying them alive:
"and he remembered bubbling laughter exploding with malice into a shout of victory as he had reached up his hand and brought down the building around them."

Yes, Luke walked through lava and again Jacen has comparable feat of making immensely srong Force barrier, which he demonstrated by blocking orbital lazer bombardment:
"Zekk took a cannon blast full on his blade and was driven to his knees. Jaina spun to his side and tapped two more bolts away, only to find herself badly out of position as a third dropped toward her head.

Zekk's lightsaber swept up just centimeters from her face, catching the bolt on the blade tip and sending it zipping across the dune.
...
Jacen holding his hand above their heads, cannon fire ricocheting away as though he held a deflector shield in his palm. That was something Jaina and Zekk had never seen before."

Also, Jacen at one point empowered Leia same way as Luke - Jaina.

Indeed, Luke is Force god. But he is not far above others. As I showed Jacen is comparable to Luke in some cases and their fight was nearly equal, both got battered very badly. Mara fought against Nyax as good as Luke both mentally and with lightsaber, it puts her not far behind him.

You mentioned best Luke's feats but look at these ones:

"Gaalan struck at Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duelist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn. He would have been too much for a comparatively diffident duelist such as Cilghal, or even Luke as he had been back at Sinkhole Station, at low ebb in physical and mental strength.

But Luke, despite recent exertions, had had time to recover. He parried each of Gaalan's blows, and his ripostes-his blade skittering off Gaalan's and thrusting now at the Sith Lord's face, now at shoulder or knee or torso-came increasingly close to touching flesh.

Luke smiled at the man" - Luke compared him to Kyle and was clearly above him but still fails to outperform him and the Sith manages to run away. Clearly not as impressive as Jacen tooling Kyle and 3 other Jedi, while safely observing surroundings and Kyle doesn't get his leg chopped off only because of coordination with battle-meld.

And this:
" One of the two rearmost Witches diverted her lightning to Vestara. The Sith girl caught it on her blade and was forced backward, taking slow steps and skidding slightly as the energy compelled her into unwilling retreat.
Pushing, summoning his willpower and technique in the Force, he walked toward his Witch at the same rate Vestara retreated before hers.
He felt the new attack in the Force before he detected its direct effects. There was a pulse of energy from all along the tree line. Then wind howled out of the forest and rushed against him, battering him, adding its strength to that of the lightning.

He couldn't advance against it, so he rooted himself in place." - Sounds good and impressive but only until next quote from same book:
"A glowing, twisting, crackling arc of purple-blue erupted from her hand and slammed into Dresdema's chest.

She felt her body convulse, felt and saw her hair stand on end. It was lightning, far more concentrated than that which the Nightsisters knew how to hurl. Dresdema jerked and spasmed, her body racked with pain. It did not deprive her of her senses, but she could not weave her spell, could not pick up her spear. She stumbled, fell to one knee" - So. Luke summons his will power and only slowly walks against weak lightning of a witch incomparable to a random Sith and completely stops, when wind added. Moreover, Sith lightning while is described much stronger, doesn't incinirate her and can't even kill. And in comparison Nyriss lightning reaps barrier and instantly turns into pile of ash. And Vitiate's lightning is much more powerful than hers. So do we conclude that Luke has no chance even against Nyriss? This is the reason why I talk about Force portrayal. Drew makes their characters so strong, that they would beat anyone from older era no sweat. And with such tremendous portrayal difference adequate comparisons are impossible. It's like comparing Harry Potter to Gandalf.

Fine but it is still unique feat as he couldn't replicate it.


Wow, once again I must fall back on: Jacen is friggin' crazy.
And I agree with that. But what upsets me is that you accused me of making stuff up despite the fact that I back up nearly all my opinions with quotes from novels.

First, Anakin did not reach his full potential. Second you talk about skillful Force utilization. Anakin might have been able to lift haviest objects or create strongest Force barriers. But he is still not skilled enough to anticipate Force attacks like some others. His Force use might still not be as instinctive comparing to others. He can still be not skilled enough to keep concentration on, when distracted. And he still can't multitask like some others.

But I talk about separate techniques. Unskilled use of lightning is just pouring full power into single target. Skilled - is when Dooku catches his opponents off guard like Anakin two times, when he utilizes lightning with TK simultaniously or when using against more than one foe like Ventress with two witches.


We are not talking about whole Force but only single technique.
With training power grows and new techniques learned. On learning a technique it's strength depends on power and then they learn to utilize that technique effectively.
I can bring another example to support my opinion. Corran Horn tried to lift an object but, instead, unintentionally he produced illusion of lifting that object and it was so powerful that tricked everyone including even Luke. As you see his new technique reflected his power from beginning, all he needed is to learn to utilize it effectively.

And again same way Luke learned mnemoterapy and utilized it on limits of his power against Abeloth.

And again I remind you about Luke's and Jaina's lightning as it was immensely powerful from beginning, while Dooku's even years later didn't compare.


When I assumed that Revan used his own lightning imbued by Nyriss' power, you said to focus on what is in the book. So now I expect you to do the same.


Dreamer. I merely implied that it's pointless to enforce unconfirmed assumptions and various interprerations on each other. My believes are mine, yours are yours.


Hetrir was kidnapping and training Force sensitive children. Desann took grown ones and let them absorb the valley. He, also, infused specific crystals with Valley power, then he picked a squad of skilled non-sencitive storm troopers, clad them into black armor and placed those crystals into their chests. Remember black troopers from game? Those were the only non-sencitives. And Luke discuss it with Kyle in the game.

It is just a story. Vitiate failed to show a single example of mind domination. Sidious couldn't mind dominate Luke without corrupting him.
When Vitiate tried to mind dominate, Revan felt it and Force pushed him. But Nyax' mental attack was instant and it worked on prime Luke:
" Then he made a thought and drove it into their heads.
It hit Luke like a razorbug fired straight through his forehead. Luke staggered under the pain. His back hit the irregular floor. He waved his lightsaber up and in front of him, a defensive form, but there was no follow-up blow for him to counter.

There was, however, a new priority. He was to switch off his lightsaber and then go attack the Yuuzhan Vong. He leapt to his feet and turned his weapon off. He could see Mara and Tahiri doing the same" - His mind domination works instantly, Luke didn't even have chance to prepare.
All you have is lots of hype from a story and one failed attempt with Revan. I have real evidence with far more effective mind domination that works even on prime Luke.


It makes no sence. Lightning gives strong impact, ashes were ment to be blasted all over the place instead of forming a pile.

It does, it's just you refuse to accept it. Above I gave you quote, where Luke was walking towards lightning but was forced to root himself in one place as it made him struggle more. He rooted himself in this case as well, hence, struggled more.

Originally posted by Arhael
Maybe that's why Luke never used it again. Also, electric judgment wasn't light side power either, Plo Koon refered to it as Force lightning and Order never said it is lightside power either and told him to meditate on it.

Force choke is TK applied on throat. Which is considered darkside power because it makes others suffer or kills. Same way electric judgement makes others suffer or kills.

You called me foolish, yet, I gave my reasoning and canon examples. Now either you give your evidence that it is lightside power or apologize for being unreasonably rude.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/godot-catch.gif

Lets begin with a fresh cup of coffee.

Plo Zoon said that he felt no anger or hate while using it and was calm and in control of his emotions, indicating that its a lightside power. Normally Force Lightning is powered by those negative emotions. Because of this as well as the obvious color difference, it is clearly different from Force Lightning, and the lack of negative emotions would indicate that it is a lightside power.

When the Jedi Order used their combined Wall of Light (a lightside power) on Exar Kun's forces it created a firestorm than burned Yavin, killing many. Just because a move kills does not stop it from being lightside.

The foolishness was simply a joke, as was every other time I called you a fool in my post. It's a quirk of the character whose gifs I was using at the time.

Originally posted by Arhael
You just trapped yourself. Jacen tried to stand up but he didn't try to enter Force contest, he didn't try to use TK AT ALL and if not you, I wouldn't even realize that. Thank you. So in fact there was no Force contest to determine by how far Luke is superior.

In other words your "Luke could easily snap his neck" is only theory.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/godot-heh%20mug.gif

Only just figured that out did you? You're even more foolish than I thought.

While it is true that the text doesn't directly point out that he resisted using the Force, Jacen himself notes that he was taken by surprise. He didn't even know that Luke was pinning him until he tried to move. That was my point. Luke caught him by surprise and defeated him using the Force before Jacen could react. Luke could have killed him easily by snapping his neck when he caught him by surprise rather than throwing him across the room and pinning him to his chair. Just like he could have killed him easily later when he surprised Jacen yet again in Inferno.

Furthermore, it isn't a theory. As I showed you above there is an example of Jacen attempting to resist Luke's TK and Luke easily overpowers him. Even if Jacen had tried to resist Jacen he wouldn't have been able to.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/godot-sniff.gif
Hmmm, smells like victory.

Originally posted by Arhael
But let me show how strong Luke can be with offensive TK:
"Luke extended himself toward the glow, slamming his Force presence into Welk. It was like trying to push Qoribu out of orbit. Welk continued to come bringing his blade around in a brazen full-reach attack." - Not very impressive, is it?

Welk's powers were boosted by being connected to the Kilik Hive Mind.

Originally posted by Arhael
And you just confirmed that Jacen didn't try to resist with TK, when Luke pinned him. So that feat is invalid and proves nothing apart from the fact that Jacen was scared to confront him and didn't try to use TK as it would provoke Luke.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/godot-sips.gif
It's lucky I have another example of Luke clearly overpowering Jacen then, isn't it?

Originally posted by Arhael
"Luke feinted a dash toward his nephew's blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave.

Jacen went flying" - As you see it doesn't prove that Luke's TK is superior. Luke had to feint a move to catch him by surprise. In other words Luke skillfully caught him off guard. However, Jacen utilized TK on Luke without fainting any moves. And Luke still failed to counter it in any way and slammed facefirst to the floor. But yes, it was just a fixture, nothing impressive as you said...

It just shows that Luke is superior at using his powers, even in the middle of combat, than Jacen.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ye, it's a good one. But I talk about combat situations. Her TK didn't kill anyone in combat, at most stunned. Her lightning didn't vaporize anyone either, although, the only ones she electrocuted were Corran Horn with absorb like Satele Shan's and Luke.

The fact that she wasn't able to kill anyone with her TK in combat only makes them out to be impressive fighters. Although I admit to my lack of knowledge on the matter as to whether she tried and failed since I didn't read the newest series.

But anyway this proves you wrong. Other characters than Vitiate have impressive feats.

Originally posted by Arhael
Because in combat he rivals Luke as he proved. Jaina with her equal potential was getting pawned hard in final combat, while Jacen had only one working arm. Kyle was getting tooled, while having 3 Jedi with him. It's not just his superior power, it is his combat skill combined with that power she feared.

Jacen might rival Luke purely in lightsaber combat. In terms of the Force however Luke continually establishes his dominance over Jacen. And it is the Force that is important here, nothing else.

Originally posted by Arhael
I know all of that. But Jacen has a few comparable feats as well.
Yes, Luke dismantled Fortress. But it was channeing effort. Jacen in comparison toppled sealing on Vongs burying them alive:
"and he remembered bubbling laughter exploding with malice into a shout of victory as he had reached up his hand and brought down the building around them."

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Objection! As I recall that was a result of a one-time boost of anger. It's similar to when Luke became enraged and defeated Vader. That isn't is usual ability.

Besides, it seems like he channeled something to do that 'Frustration had compounded Jacen's fury; he had thrown himself outward seeking power to do these creatures harm...

And the storm above the crater had answered.'

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, Luke walked through lava and again Jacen has comparable feat of making immensely srong Force barrier, which he demonstrated by blocking orbital lazer bombardment:
"Zekk took a cannon blast full on his blade and was driven to his knees. Jaina spun to his side and tapped two more bolts away, only to find herself badly out of position as a third dropped toward her head.

Zekk's lightsaber swept up just centimeters from her face, catching the bolt on the blade tip and sending it zipping across the dune.
...
Jacen holding his hand above their heads, cannon fire ricocheting away as though he held a deflector shield in his palm. That was something Jaina and Zekk had never seen before."

http://www.court-records.net/animation/godot-deskslam-mug.gif

Objection again! That wasn't orbital bombardment it was a Drop Ship

'Jaina waved her hand, using the Force to clear a hole in the dust cloud. A black plume of entry smoke was blossoming against the yellow sky, descending from the dark sliver of the Chiss assault cruiser that was raining fire down on them.

"Drop ship!" Jaina shouted. "Be ready!"

"Iesei, take cover!" Zekk added.'

And as you provided in that quote, Jaina and Zekk deflect the blasts with their lightsabers, so they blasts weren't exactly that powerful.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, Luke is Force god. But he is not far above others. As I showed Jacen is comparable to Luke in some cases and their fight was nearly equal, both got battered very badly. Mara fought against Nyax as good as Luke both mentally and with lightsaber, it puts her not far behind him.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/godot-pointing-mug.gif

Your cases were wrong. Jacen does not compare to Luke in any aspect of the Force that makes him an impressive opponent for Mara. As I have shown therefore, Mara does not have the feats required to stand against Vitiate's TK or Force Lightning feats. She will be defeated. And rather easily at that.

I see your point. You determine by emotions, me by intentions. Actualy, in a way we are both right.
Look at TK, it is neutral power and Jedi time to time subdue opponents with it. But what makes Force choke darkside power is intention alone. Luke didn't feel angry, when he choked Whelk, yet, he still stopped:
"Had he grown that casual about killing? So accustomed to the power he wielded that he would use it to kill when he had other means to defend himself?"

Jacen's emerald lightning:
"Jacen felt rage building in him, a red fury that was his response to his own despair. The blaster hummed empty and he threw it at the warrior. And then he remembered the power he could call upon, the power fueled by the kind of despair and anger he felt now and had felt before, and he hurled it at the warrior, the brilliant emerald fire that lanced from his fingertips The Force lightning threw the first rank of Yuuzhan Vong back into their comrades, and in the confusion Jacen launched another blaze of fire. He hadn't killed them-the murderous form of lightning was a dark side weapon-but they wouldn't be waking for a long time." - As you see Jacen's rage produced emerald lightnig but still he didn't consider it darkside power as he didn't kill with it.

Yet, lightside, also, can produce lightning. Leia's stomach zapped Palpatine.
Anakin during Oneness had "miniature forks of lightning dancing off his arms and legs". Jacen used lightning on Onimi during his Oneness.
Overally, lightning is a technique, which is neither light nor darkside power, how it is used is determined by intentions.
So I amend myself about saying that Luke used darkside power, his main intention was to save Jacen. Moreover, in book it doesn't say that Slayer got killed by it, I guess "instant kill" is another bullshit from wookieepedia.

Also, wall of light is not a killing power. I believe that fire storm was side effect from struggle between light and dark like explosion caused by Yoda and Palpatine. I checked two sources, it says that Kun survived by draining all remaining Massasi but no mention about Wall of Light, will check other sources at home.


You said this:
"Luke effortlessly pinned him to his chair without moving a finger, despite Jacen struggling to resist." - And I wasn't bothered to check, if Jacen really tried to resist with Force or not. Sorry, indeed was foolish to believe you. You can't be trusted!


Your theory is still theory.
"Jaina felt her chin twisting around and went with it" - As you see snapping head is not as instant as Force blast or choke.


All you showed above is your assumption that Jacen's assumption of Luke using Force was true, which is quite easy to prove wrong.
Force user can't use Force, when withdraw from it:
"Caedus hadn't felt anyone. Luke-he could always sense Luke. But Ben had taken to Force hiding instantly. Mara had managed it for critical moments and nearly killed him, but this smacked of Ben.

Bang.

Something clipped him from underneath the fuselage this time, shaking his teeth" - He neither felt Luke nor any Force exertion. And after he discovered about other Jedi and ship with, he stopped those assumptions. Jacen just got fooled like with illusions.


Please, don't tell me it's that example with StealthX. -_-


No, it doesn't. They both successfuly utilized TK on each other. Score is 1/1.
And if you gonna talk about superior using of powers, Jacen tricked Luke and started choking him from behind.


I completly agree that it makes others look impressive. No need to say I am wrong, you didn't get my point.

I talk about actual combat.
Bane's Force blast is described as "would have done this and that" and Kaz'im puts up barrier but temple still topples. We can safely say that attack was super powerful and Kas'im's resistance is as good.
Abeloth makes Force wave and everyone gets stunned. We are left to assume how strong that attack was and what resistance other characters put up.

Revan casualy absorbs lightning that instantly incinirates and Vitiate's lightning is infinitively more powerful. We safely conclude that Revan's absorb and Vitiate's lightning are rediculously super potent.
Abeloth electrocuts Luke and Coran. We are left to assume how potent was her lightning, Luke's resistance and Corran's Force absorb.

With Tahiri first thing Abeloth tries is mind domination and Tahiri barely counters it by withdrawing from the Force and on seeing her she easily pulls her with TK to her grasp. She takes under her mind control nearly every one around, moves blastboats with TK and as you said melts City.
But we never see her trying to overpower Luke with either TK or mind domination. We are left to assume that she is either retarder or Luke is just so strong.


Luke has got much more feats but that doesn't make him far superior. Palpatine has very few TK feats but it doesn't make him weakling.


Since becoming Caedus he used anger quite often, on top of that he learned to use pain and his fight with Mara was unique enough to give unusual boost.

Objection again! That wasn't orbital bombardment it was a Drop Ship

And as you provided in that quote, Jaina and Zekk deflect the blasts with their lightsabers, so they blasts weren't exactly that powerful.
How da hell it matters? I didn't say it was Star Destroyer, I didn't even check who was shooting.

What you mean weren't that powerful? It put Zekk on his knees and nearly killed Jaina. It was THAT powerful.


No they weren't. I provided all required feats for taking on Vitiate. Your Jacen's lowballing and Luke's overhyping doesn't make them less impressive.


I just make you face reality that Luke is not far above other top characters of his time.

And your assumption about "still recovering" has no basis. But it's fine. Who would believe that Luke would have longer than 5 sec fight with a random Sith...


You are hilarious.
Concentrated means having an abundance of some characteristic quality. For example, Juice concentrate has higher amount of everything than normal juice.
If author didn't mean that Sith lightning is stronger, why would he write that??????

It has everything to do with concern. Why else would he do that?


I completly agree with this canon. It talks about the Force power in general. Strength of TK, lightning and any other powers wholly depend on proficiency to harness the Force.

Luke learned mnemoterapy within day or two and he utilized it to immense extend by reaping Kallista essence out of Abeloth, which is far beyond than what any master of this ability could ever do.

Jaina's first lightning had been extremely potent.

Corran's first ever illusion worked even on Luke. Corran could absorb at most a few blaster bolts but later absorbed multiple detonations in one go and used that power to produce the strongest illusion he could ever do.

All of them could do it because they already were proficient in harnessing power of the Force.

What to concede??? I gave you multiple proves that after learning new abilities their strength wholly depends on power and emotions. Now you provide a single prove that lightning needs to be mastered to be stronger.

Tavion DID NOT kidnap Force sensitives. She was one of the kidnapped by Hetrir.
Is it so hard to open Desann on wookipeedia?
Here:
"Hethrir overcame his xenophobia to make Desann his second in command, and tasked Desann with training several of Hethrir's Empire Youths: Force-sensitive individuals who had shown devotion to the Empire Reborn and had been "purified" by the extradimensional being known as Waru. Desann took one of the Youths, Tavion Axmis, as his apprentice."

"The Dark Jedi brought his band of Empire Youth students with him to absorb the Valley's power, forming an army of dark warriors called the Reborn. He also took with him a small portion of his stormtroopers, and they became shadowtroopers, Force-sensitive soldiers armed with lightsabers and encased in cortosis armor enhanced by Artusian crystals."


Happened how?


Nyax's mind domination worked even on Luke and he even beakoned Mara to join. But seeing her brought memories that helped him resist.

Again, Vitiate DID NOT demonstrate his mind domination a single time. He needed to render Jedi team unconscious to mind dominate them. I am not impressed. This is my face -->

Who cares. Vitiate
got Force pushed as result. Not to mention that Revan utterly misunderstood concept of Unifying Force. One of the many author's fails.


Looool.

You provided yourself video, where Yoda like a Force God collapsed two star ships together, while in film had to put full effort to lift a pillar. Our argument is pointless because of significant portrayal difference. Drew wins, I give up.

Of course he did. If one puts more effort, Luke just needs to put more effort as well, which he did because he was absorbing lightning and keeping himself from being blown away simultaniously, which is obviously harder.

Originally posted by Arhael
Drew wins, I give up

As in seriously give up?

Originally posted by Nephthys
As in seriously give up?
Well, we had plenty of other good conversations.

So you want me to reply, or have you admitted that Vitiate would kick Mara's ass?

Originally posted by Nephthys
So you want me to reply, or have you admitted that Vitiate would kick Mara's ass?
I admit that with around 50/50 chance he can bit her.

To be honest all we could say we did. The rest is lowballing, over hyping, assuming, believing and theorizing. And as I said portrayal is too different for adequate comparison. Like that cartoon Yoda comparing to film Yoda.

Farther proofs that Jacen's power rivaled Luke.

Fallanassi Akanah:
"You have the same power I once sensed in your uncle Luke, but without the light."

Jacen inside the ship in which Thul crushed:
"Jacen used the Force to slide several tons of cargo deck into a secure position, then walked..."

Luke uses TK on a B-Wing:
"He grabbed the vessel in the Force and held it in place, then opened fire with his laser cannons. The startled B-wing pilot applied more power, trying to break free. Luke drew on the Force more heavily to counter the maneuvering thrusters, and all of the energy flowing through his body began to make his skin nettle."

Jacen replicates Luke's feat:
"Luke started to Force-grab the fighter again, but Jacen had already caught it and was holding it in place while cannon bolts pounded its shields from above."

Jaina:
"I've known him to move star-ships, deflect ion cannon... even turbolasers. He can hear at huge distances with some Theran Force-listening tech-nique. He can create elaborate Force illusions that feel real, he can walk into the past or future, he can control objects like scanners, and he can mind-rub-he even mind-rubbed Ben.""

Jacen uses TK on a huge Chiss assault cruiser:
"And that was when a loud groan sounded from the hull. Jaina and Zekk paused, thinking the craft was about to explode. Instead, it rolled away from them, revealing a dark jagged hole where the near wing had once connected to the fuselage.

Realizing someone had to be using the Force, Jaina and Zekk glanced over their shoulders and found Jacen looking in the drop ship's direction. He smiled, then nodded past them toward the vessel."

Size of that cruiser:
"The vessel itself was a fiery wedge of ceram-metal composite at the tip of the smoke plume, no more than forty meters long and perhaps half that at the base."

Jacen deflecting cannon bolts of that cruiser:
"Jacen holding his hand above their heads, cannon fire ricocheting away as though he held a deflector shield in his palm. That was something Jaina and Zekk had never seen before."

Strength of those bolts:
"Unlike blaster bolts-which carried very little kinetic charge-the charric beams struck with an enormous impact. Several times Jaina, Zekk, and even Lowbacca felt their lightsabers fly from their grasps and had to use the Force to recall the weapons.".

All feats above were performed before Jacen became even more powerful by turning to darkside. He, also, displayed those feats without drawing on pain, rage or any other strong emotions.

Good example that injuries don't affect Force powers of those, who can ignore pain:
"A disk buried deep in his forehead, one of the Sun Guards twirled in front of Plagueis like a crazed marionette. Blood fountained turning to mist.
...
Plagueis pressed his right hand to the right side of his neck to discover that a disk had made off with a considerable hunk of his jawbone and neck, and in its cruel passing had severed his trachea and several blood vessels. He cupped the Force against the injury to keep himself from lapsing into unconsciousness, but he fell to the floor regardless, with blood pumping onto the already slick stone circle. Around him, slanted in his faltering vision...
...
Having run himself through a similar test, Plagueis knew that he had lost a great deal of blood, and that one of his subsidiary hearts was in fibrillation. Sith techniques had helped him perform chemical cardioversions on his other two hearts, but one of them was working so hard to compensate that it, too, was in danger of becoming arrhythmic.
...
His second subsidiary heart failed, paralyzing him with pain and nearly plunging him into unconsciousness. The assassins wasted not a moment, throwing themselves at him in groups, though in a vain attempt to penetrate the Force shield he raised. Again he rallied, this time with a ragged sound dredged from deep inside that erupted from him like a sonic weapon, shattering the eardrums of those within ten meters and compelling the rest to bring their hands to their ears.

In blinding motion his hands and feet smashed skulls and windpipes. He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians. He spun through a turn, dragging the wave halfway around the room to kill half a dozen more.
..." - His injuries were far more lethal, than Jacen's and, yet, he displayed the best feats from entire book.

Sidious assessing Plagueis:
"Sidious had been wondering if Plagueis had been weakened by the attack, but he saw now that, for all the punishment his body had sustained at the hands of the Maladian assassins, the Muun was no less strong in the Force.

"Your thoughts betray you," Plagueis said. "Do you think that Malak's powers were weakened by Revan's lightsaber? Bane by being encrusted in orbalisks? Do you think Gravid's young apprentice was hindered by the prosthesis she was forced to wear after fighting him? "

Unlike Plagueis, Jacen did not only ignore pain but was getting empowered by it. Assumption that during fight with Mara Jacen's Force powers were weakened by far less lethal injuries than Plaguies' is as biased as it could be.

My point stands. If Mara could resist Jacen - descendant of Chosen One who's power rivaled Luke, I don't see why it would be so impossible to resist Vitiate.

You really want me to beat you some more?

Beat me?
Your over-hyping of Luke as far superior to Jacen and retardedly holding back, constant lowballing of every single Jacen's and Mara's feat and calling me idiot, fool and insane at most amuses me but never beats.

Vitiate is too powerful for Mara to take him head on. She will end up either mind-dominated or dead.