Baleman vs Black Widow.

BlackZero30x

Originally posted by ares834
Strength wins fights all the time. Regardless, Batman defeats competent combatants, Widow fights security guards. Yes, her fighting looks cooler but that really means nothing.

It's H2H. If they have gear Widow probably takes. But I'm fairly certain the OP meant it just to be a fist fight, in which case I gotta give it to Bats.

Nice argument... (sarcasm)

The Strength argument is another fight entirely so I will agree to disagree for now.

the point Im trying to make is her fighting doesn't just "look cooler" shes clearly showing better speed and agility. It shows stuff that batman has never (in the nolan verse) done...reacted with those kind of movements ect...Go back and look at the part where she jumps over a the table, flips in the air, and as she comes down she uses her leg to take that guy out. Batman has not fought anyone that has shown that kind of fighting ability. Just because they are "ninja" doesn't automatically mean they are bad ass fighters and they certainly haven't shown the skill to back up any claims that they are superior to her.

BruceSkywalker

jeez, Nolanverse kills Natasha...

ares834

Agility perhaps, but speed? Not sure that I see that.

As for his opponents, Bane has sufficient speed, strength, and reaction time to catch a punch from Batman. And yet, in the end, Batman is able to defeat this guy. Also, I am not saying that the ninjas are more skilled than her.

Newjak

Originally posted by ares834
Agility perhaps, but speed? Not sure that I see that.

As for his opponents, Bane has sufficient speed, strength, and reaction time to catch a punch from Batman. And yet, in the end, Batman is able to defeat this guy. Also, I am not saying that the ninjas are more skilled than her. Batman only beat Bane through a plot device.

ares834

Perhaps. But Batman was still required to get past Bane's defenses and damage the mask.

the ninjak

Because of his arm blades!

He slashed his arm across and tore open the mask.
http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae259/the_ninjak/batman-darkknight.jpg

Newjak

Originally posted by ares834
Perhaps. But Batman was still required to get past Bane's defenses and damage the mask. Agreed but had that weakness not existed and had Baleman not known about it it was looking like the fight was going to end the sameway it did the first time around.

And I think Natahsa would beat Bane as well.

My main reason is that at the end of the day. She just faced way more stiff competition in the form the Chitauri.

I remember when they jumped down from the Leviathon's it looks like they were digging their hands into the sides of buildings.

They had weapons far more advanced than anything in the Nolanverse. They were armored and there were a lot lot lot more of them surrounding Natasha than any number of thugs Batman had to take on at the same time.

So the upper limits of everything she faced greater than the upper limits of anything Baleman had to face in terms of size and quality of foe.

Ninjas are not greater than the Aliens in Avengers sorry.

ares834

But I don't recall her beating them in H2H. She always relies on her blades and guns. Once again if she has those here she likely wins.

Newjak

Originally posted by ares834
But I don't recall her beating them in H2H. She always relies on her blades and guns. Once again if she has those here she likely wins. she was able to disarm a couple and use their own weapons against them. She had considerable H2H skill just lasting in close quarters with them.

Also I point out again the fight where she is tied to a chair and beat 3 full grown males you all look like former military and does it easily.

Psychotron

This is getting stupid.

1. The Chitauri suck. Big time. They were getting taken out by arrows and Black Widow's 9mm. They were too stupid to wear armor. Their weapons couldn't put down Captain America, they couldn't even burn his uniform. Their advanced war ships were taken out by a nuke. In short, they're weak.

2. Black Widow can't fight for crap. Period. Those cartwheels she was taking out the guards with wouldn't put down a three year old in real life. Certainly not Batman. Her only other H2H feat was taking out Hawkeye and he's got no H2H feats either. Oh, and there was that fight with the Russians, but those guy were even worse. One of them got hurt when she whipped her hair at him ffs. So, she sucks too.

Baleman slaughters her while listening to Hip to be Square.

Newjak

Originally posted by Psychotron
This is getting stupid.

1. The Chitauri suck. Big time. They were getting taken out by arrows and Black Widow's 9mm. They were too stupid to wear armor. Their weapons couldn't put down Captain America, they couldn't even burn his uniform. Their advanced war ships were taken out by a nuke. In short, they're weak.

2. Black Widow can't fight for crap. Period. Those cartwheels she was taking out the guards with wouldn't put down a three year old in real life. Certainly not Batman. Her only other H2H feat was taking out Hawkeye and he's got no H2H feats either. Oh, and there was that fight with the Russians, but those guy were even worse. One of them got hurt when she whipped her hair at him ffs. So, she sucks too.

Baleman slaughters her while listening to Hip to be Square. No that stance is getting stupid.

1) Say what you will about them the Chitauri's weapons were able to injure Hulk and knock Ironman down. Considering what those two were taking before hand that is a huge feat on the part of Chitauri. And I'm sorry but if we have to use a Nuclear device to take down just ONE of their ships then that's not weak on their part. Just means humans weren't the pushovers they were told about. Also they were wearing armor and had above human stats evidenced by their ability to cling to the side of buildings.

They were also only getting taken down by the arrows and bullets with very precise shots that were cartoonish in nature with their accuracy.

2) And in real life you may have a point, but regardless of how you feel someone should be or how ineffective they should be in real life the truth is her moves in the film were highly effective which in turn makes her highly effective. She did them, she did them effectively. They took down trained people, big guys easily. Complain all you want but they happened deal with it.

Baleman loses and loses hard.

Zack Fair

I think Natasha wins.

Say does Bats have iron knuckles in the gloves?

Newjak

Originally posted by Zack Fair
I think Natasha wins.

Say does Bats have iron knuckles in the gloves? I'm sure he has something hard covering his knuckles, only makes sense. Although I don't think they explicitly say so.

Also as for cartwheel kicks being ineffective stick out tongue

B_gReMWf3Pc

playa1258

Baleman crushes her. Keep crying Marvel fanboys.

BruceSkywalker

Originally posted by Newjak
Batman only beat Bane through a plot device.

you can say that for the avengers as well.. stick out tongue

Newjak

Fair enough stick out tongue

But I still feel their is a difference between the two plot devices stick out tongue

BruceSkywalker

Originally posted by Newjak
Fair enough stick out tongue

But I still feel their is a difference between the two plot devices stick out tongue

i just don't worry about plot devices

also when you get down do it.. Bane has been the only person in Nolanverse to hit Batman hard and he went down..

Natasha although skilled really isn't skilled enough to hit Baleman hard enough to keep him down..

BaleBats takes this, Natasha's h2h skills she has showed are nothing compared to what BaleBats has showed

Darth Martin

I think she'd beat Batman. Bane is a different story however.

NemeBro

Baleman gets subdued by dogs.

Black Widow romps through an alien army.

Wow this sure is a hard match-up to decide.

Nephthys

Dude, those were some pretty big dogs.

Like, kneehigh.

Tzeentch._

The Batman fanboyism and attempts to downplay Natasha's feats at all costs is amusing.

I can't wait for some butthhurt Batman fan to claim that dogs > 7 foot tall armored alien warriors. It's going to happen.

Newjak

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
i just don't worry about plot devices

also when you get down do it.. Bane has been the only person in Nolanverse to hit Batman hard and he went down..

Natasha although skilled really isn't skilled enough to hit Baleman hard enough to keep him down..

BaleBats takes this, Natasha's h2h skills she has showed are nothing compared to what BaleBats has showed That's pretty round about logic.

You say only Bane as knocked out Batman and that since Natasha can not hit as hard has bane therefore she can not knock out Baleman.

This actually takes a couple of different things for granted.

One is assuming you have to be as strong as Bane to knock Batman out.

Second that Natasha can not generate as much force as Bane

Thirdly you assume KO is the only way Natasha can win.

Let's kind of break these down.

First, as strong as Bane is I think each individual Chitauri warrior is stronger. They can launch out of Leviathans and cling to the sides of buildings using nothing but their hands and feet. Something I don't see Bane duplicating based on his feats.

Secondly Natasha was able to generate enough force to knock out two adult men while being tied to a chair. So I don't think generating knock out force is problem for her.

Thirdly Natasha could do a number of things to Bruce beside knock him out, namely break his neck, bust one of his joints. Beat on him so much he just collapses.

As for skill.

I know people like to trounce the Chitauri as weak in reality they are just cannon fodder soldiers just like everyone else Batman took down.

The difference if that the Chitauri have decent feats going with their stuff. Weapons capable of hurting Ironman, definitely greater than human strength.

So Natasha's best feats are taking down groups of armed above human alien soldiers, Batman's best skill feat is taking down groups of armed human level ninjas.

It just doesn't compare.

It's the difference between someone trying to make a realistic comic book superhero and someone fully embracing comic street level heroes and all their campy stuff.

Bane is by the far physically the most powerful person in the entire Nolanverse, and I honestly think he could struggle with one Chitauri warrior in stats. He maybe able to take down one on skill but I honestly think he would struggle and get overpowered by a group of them.

I'll use one measuring stick to make my point Captain America. He would wreck Bane and Batman at the same time. Why because he skilled and Bane ++++++++++++++++ in terms of stats. Cap in terms of feats would be able to overpower Bane with one arm.

He had moments where he struggled in the fight against the Aliens, yet Natasha was in the same scenario able to hold her own. She didn't have advanced super stats. She only was able to survive because of her skill level.

At the end of the day that's always gonna be the difference.

Nolanverse Batman only ever had to go up against one person with above human ability and he lost.

Natasha had to do it against groups of people with above human stats and was holding her own.

So when judging skill, you've gotta account for the fact that Baleman will never have a test of skill to match that because he was in a much more realistic setting having to deal with much more realistic foes. And he struggled at times within that realistic setting.

I think most people judge skill based solely on how they feel the characters looked and how well the choreography looked.

You can't do that, because then you're ignoring what actually happened, and Natasha pulled off the much better feat which required much more skill to pull off, and no Baleman hasn't done anything close enough to say he would fare nearly as well as she did in a situation that was taxing Cap.

ares834

Until someone actually shows a clip with Widow defeating Chitauri in H2H I really don't see how it's relevant. She doesn't have her weapons here.

BruceSkywalker

Originally posted by Newjak
That's pretty round about logic.

You say only Bane as knocked out Batman and that since Natasha can not hit as hard has bane therefore she can not knock out Baleman.

This actually takes a couple of different things for granted.

One is assuming you have to be as strong as Bane to knock Batman out.

Second that Natasha can not generate as much force as Bane

Thirdly you assume KO is the only way Natasha can win.

Let's kind of break these down.

First, as strong as Bane is I think each individual Chitauri warrior is stronger. They can launch out of Leviathans and cling to the sides of buildings using nothing but their hands and feet. Something I don't see Bane duplicating based on his feats.

Secondly Natasha was able to generate enough force to knock out two adult men while being tied to a chair. So I don't think generating knock out force is problem for her.

Thirdly Natasha could do a number of things to Bruce beside knock him out, namely break his neck, bust one of his joints. Beat on him so much he just collapses.

As for skill.

I know people like to trounce the Chitauri as weak in reality they are just cannon fodder soldiers just like everyone else Batman took down.

The difference if that the Chitauri have decent feats going with their stuff. Weapons capable of hurting Ironman, definitely greater than human strength.

So Natasha's best feats are taking down groups of armed above human alien soldiers, Batman's best skill feat is taking down groups of armed human level ninjas.

It just doesn't compare.

It's the difference between someone trying to make a realistic comic book superhero and someone fully embracing comic street level heroes and all their campy stuff.

Bane is by the far physically the most powerful person in the entire Nolanverse, and I honestly think he could struggle with one Chitauri warrior in stats. He maybe able to take down one on skill but I honestly think he would struggle and get overpowered by a group of them.

I'll use one measuring stick to make my point Captain America. He would wreck Bane and Batman at the same time. Why because he skilled and Bane ++++++++++++++++ in terms of stats. Cap in terms of feats would be able to overpower Bane with one arm.

He had moments where he struggled in the fight against the Aliens, yet Natasha was in the same scenario able to hold her own. She didn't have advanced super stats. She only was able to survive because of her skill level.

At the end of the day that's always gonna be the difference.

Nolanverse Batman only ever had to go up against one person with above human ability and he lost.

Natasha had to do it against groups of people with above human stats and was holding her own.

So when judging skill, you've gotta account for the fact that Baleman will never have a test of skill to match that because he was in a much more realistic setting having to deal with much more realistic foes. And he struggled at times within that realistic setting.

I think most people judge skill based solely on how they feel the characters looked and how well the choreography looked.

You can't do that, because then you're ignoring what actually happened, and Natasha pulled off the much better feat which required much more skill to pull off, and no Baleman hasn't done anything close enough to say he would fare nearly as well as she did in a situation that was taxing Cap.

well why don;t you show me some type of proof that Natasha hits like Bane... remember this thread is about martial arts/hand to hand combat..

well i don;t have to assume much since Natasha's martial arts/h2h is nothing compared to what BaleBats has shown, which is what this thread is about as per the OP

Originally posted by ares834
Until someone actually shows a clip with Widow defeating Chitauri in H2H I really don't see how it's relevant. She doesn't have her weapons here.

that is the only way Natasha wins here if she has her weapons

Originally posted by Nephthys
Someone said this would be a good fight. Lets see if they're right.

Baleman at the end of TDKR. Does the incarnation of Batman matter? If so this might be subject to change.

The fight takes place in the arena in which Baleman first fights Bane. they're both on the catwalk.

H2H.

see guys the OP is clear H2H ONLY ... Don;t get me wrong I love the avngers as I saw it 6 times and am looking forward to buying it on blu ray however the H2H skills Natasha has showed will not put down BaleBats

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
The Batman fanboyism and attempts to downplay Natasha's feats at all costs is amusing.

I can't wait for some butthhurt Batman fan to claim that dogs > 7 foot tall armored alien warriors. It's going to happen.

being being that dogs have no bearing here, that is a very ignorant statement on your part

the ninjak

Batman brings the best out in people doesn't he.

Kazenji

Originally posted by ares834

Quit wanking over her.

Who wouldn't want to....

Newjak

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
well why don;t you show me some type of proof that Natasha hits like Bane... remember this thread is about martial arts/hand to hand combat..

well i don;t have to assume much since Natasha's martial arts/h2h is nothing compared to what BaleBats has shown, which is what this thread is about as per the OP

that is the only way Natasha wins here if she has her weapons

see guys the OP is clear H2H ONLY ... Don;t get me wrong I love the avngers as I saw it 6 times and am looking forward to buying it on blu ray however the H2H skills Natasha has showed will not put down BaleBats

being being that dogs have no bearing here, that is a very ignorant statement on your part Once again you assume you need to hit as hard as Bane to hurt Baleman that isn't the case.

Look @3:10

fE_gaKlXBXM

One clown thug was able to deck Batman and stun him. That a normal man managing to stun the Batman. Which means you don't have to be equal to Bane to hurt that Bat.

And I ask you what exactly are you using to base your notion that Baleman's H2H skills are better than Natahsa's?

Originally posted by the ninjak
Batman brings the best out in people doesn't he. Because he is the hero the people deserve but not the one it needs big grin

BruceSkywalker

Originally posted by Newjak
Once again you assume you need to hit as hard as Bane to hurt Baleman that isn't the case.

Look @3:10

fE_gaKlXBXM

One clown thug was able to deck Batman and stun him. That a normal man managing to stun the Batman. Which means you don't have to be equal to Bane to hurt that Bat.

And I ask you what exactly are you using to base your notion that Baleman's H2H skills are better than Natahsa's?

Because he is the hero the people deserve but not the one it needs big grin

that same scene Batman gets back up and saves Rachel so yeah you have basically proved my point..

in Nolanverse Bane has been the one and only person to knock BaleBats down and he stayed down... Natasha won;t be able to knock him out, she might knock him down but he get back up and beat her.. she prolly won;t be able to see in darkness which will also be her undoing...

i am basing BaleBats off of all his h2h feats he has shown and he is superior to Natasha when it comes to h2h ... lets face it Natasha was barely shown using her h2h skills while BaleBats was shown using them way more than she was

Tzeentch._

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
that same scene Batman gets back up and saves Rachel Yeah, after he gets knocked to the ground and literally restrained by some random thug long enough for the Joker to shank him with a knife boot, than obviously it doesn't very much at all to knock Batman down. If a random clown thug can do that to Batman, Natasha can do far far worse.

I understand that with a Batman avatar and a Batman signature and a Batman custom title you have an obligation to defend the character to the death, but trying to ignore things that happened on-screen in his own movie is poor form.

BruceSkywalker

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Yeah, after he gets knocked to the ground and literally restrained by some random thug long enough for the Joker to shank him with a knife boot, than obviously it doesn't very much at all to knock Batman down. If a random clown thug can do that to Batman, Natasha can do far far worse.

I understand that with a Batman avatar and a Batman signature and a Batman custom title you have an obligation to defend the character to the death, but trying to ignore things that happened on-screen in his own movie is poor form.

THANKS FOR THE LAUGHS..

as stated Batman got back up and saved Rachel from certain death so I know what I am talking about .. If Natasha was all that(we all know she isn't, well at least her screen feats say so)then she would have been portrayed as some h2h powerhouse and she isn't ..

as stated certainly Natasha will hit BaleBats, knocking him down as well, however he will get back up and take care of business..

why don;t you scour through youtube(providing you know what a screen feat is) and find for me Natasha taking out the Chitauri using her h2h combat skills????

Psychotron

Oh, god. Waif-fu and Cartwheels are beating Batman.

BruceSkywalker

Originally posted by Psychotron
Oh, god. Waif-fu and Cartwheels are beating Batman.

I know, right.. thats laughable

Nephthys

Baleman isn't that great of a fighter really. Thinking that he is because he's Batman doesn't work.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Psychotron
Oh, god. Waif-fu and Cartwheels are beating Batman. I am glad you have come to your senses.

Black Widow pummels Baleman into submission.

Tzeentch._

He'll never get the chance to submit. He'll be too busy trying to breathe through his broken neck.

Psychotron

The only thing Widow can break is a nail. She's got no good H2H feats. You guys think beating up some security guards and weak aliens (using weapons) matters? The Baleman rapes and breaks her.

Lestov16

Originally posted by Psychotron
The only thing Widow can break is a nail. She's got no good H2H feats. You guys think beating up some security guards and weak aliens (using weapons) matters? The Baleman rapes and breaks her.

laughing

You guys are crazy if you think this unagile slowness:

THNbKOs8hM0

is beating this:

1OJqPJRjHkE

jS1JFa_EjmI

Batman inserts his teeth into the pavement while BW rapes and breaks him with a Bat-Dildo

ares834

Originally posted by Lestov16
BatmanNatasha inserts hisher teeth into the pavement while BW Batman rapes and breaks him her with a Bat-Dildo his batawang.

yes

Nephthys

If Baleman's batawang is anything like his batarangs, its really small. I'm not sure she'd even feel it.

Lestov16

Originally posted by ares834
yes

BW, when grabbed from behind, immediately breaks her assailant's hand and neutralizes him

Baleman, when grabbed from behind, gets held down and kicked repeatedly by the Joker laughing

Batman seems to be in the more rape-able position here

ares834

Originally posted by Nephthys
If Baleman's batawang is anything like his batarangs, its really small. I'm not sure she'd even feel it.

Ah, but Batman's accuracy with his batarangs is unparalleled just as is his accuracy with his batawang. It may be small, but he knows where it needs to go.

Psychotron

Originally posted by Nephthys
If Baleman's batawang is anything like his batarangs, its really small. I'm not sure she'd even feel it.

How could she with that cellulite factory she calls an ass?

Originally posted by Lestov16
BW, when grabbed from behind, immediately breaks her assailant's hand and neutralizes him

Baleman, when grabbed from behind, gets held down and kicked repeatedly by the Joker laughing

Batman seems to be in the more rape-able position here

Anyone could do what she did. Those guys go down to a hair whip ffs.

Batman has armor, he won't even feel her girly hits, and with his strength one hit is all he needs.

ares834

Originally posted by Psychotron
How could she with that cellulite factory she calls an ass?

Even if Natasha serves as Batman's new Robin she is still a babe.

Lestov16

Originally posted by Psychotron
Anyone could do what she did. Those guys go down to a hair whip ffs.

But Batman didn't...... confused

Originally posted by Psychotron
Batman has armor, he won't even feel her girly hits, and with his strength one hit is all he needs.

Batman gets the most pleasurable hurricana of his life

Psychotron

Originally posted by ares834
Even if Natasha serves as Batman's new Robin she is still a babe.

http://www.google.bg/imgres?q=scarlett+johansson+fat&num=10&hl=bg&safe=off&biw=1366&bih=664&tbm=isch&tbnid=x94ULljaWaDTiM:&imgrefurl=http://www.wwtdd.com/2011/04/scarlett-johansson-isnt-pregnant-just-fat/&docid=yho2EP5j6rzp1M&imgurl=http://cdn.wwtdd.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/scarlett_johansson_is_fat.jpg&w=450&h=480&ei=d7UWUMj4KbD14QTqloHAAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=737&vpy=131&dur=1820&hovh=232&hovw=217&tx=107&ty=121&sig=116489365294508726705&page=1&tbnh=136&tbnw=128&start=0&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0,i:81

Stop being so star struck, guys. She's not that hot.

Originally posted by Lestov16
But Batman didn't...... confused

Cuz he wasn't fighting pussies. Duh.

Lestov16

Russian Syndicate mooks>>>Gotham Syndicate mooks

And he wasn't fighting pussies then. Unlike this fight, where he will be getting a facefull during the most pleasurable hurricana ever.

Baleman is far too slow to keep up with Black Widow's agility

ares834

Ninjas>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Russian Syndicate mooks

Psychotron

Originally posted by ares834
Ninjas>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Russian Syndicate mooks

This.

And Batman's fist > concrete >>>>>>>>>>>>Black Widow's face>>>>>>>>>>>> her fat ass.

Try jerking off to this.

http://www.google.bg/imgres?q=scarlett+johansson+beach&hl=bg&safe=off&biw=1366&bih=664&tbm=isch&tbnid=dSRtAs2AyQkdrM:&imgrefurl=http://www.radaronline.com/photos/image/164837&docid=nIwGmfG63w-1oM&imgurl=http://www.radaronline.com/sites/radaronline.com/files/photos/image_20120211/scarlett-johansson-bikini-beach-05.jpg&w=415&h=561&ei=tLgWUIvWKaXf4QTj24HYBg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=181&vpy=125&dur=403&hovh=261&hovw=193&tx=136&ty=150&sig=116489365294508726705&page=1&tbnh=152&tbnw=115&start=0&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:66

Lestov16

Aliens>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ninjas

ares834

If she actually beat aliens in H2H that might be relevant. But she didn't.

Psychotron

Originally posted by Lestov16
Aliens>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ninjas

It's not like she beat up a Predator or something.

Those aliens went down to arrows. ARROWS! Their weapons couldn't even put down Captain America.

NemeBro

Captain America could beat every named Baleman character at once in hand to hand, and has superhuman durability, so I am not seeing your point.

That your arguments have degenerated to insulting Black Widow's physical appearance (Seriously, bashing how a pregnant woman looks? What a loser you are) only further accentuates how lacking an argument you are.

Let's be real. The Baleman supporters are only butthurt about the fact that a woman is beating the shit out of their dark brooding hero.

Robtard

Black Widow was cartoon-like in her abilities; she absolutely beats the crap out of this Batman.

Lestov16

Originally posted by ares834
If she actually beat aliens in H2H that might be relevant. But she didn't.

Because Batman has definitely shown the onscreen agility to replicate BW's pod-hijacking feat. laughing out loud

Sure........

Psychotron

Originally posted by NemeBro
Captain America could beat every named Baleman character at once in hand to hand, and has superhuman durability, so I am not seeing your point.

That your arguments have degenerated to insulting Black Widow's physical appearance (Seriously, bashing how a pregnant woman looks? What a loser you are) only further accentuates how lacking an argument you are.

Let's be real. The Baleman supporters are only butthurt about the fact that a woman is beating the shit out of their dark brooding hero.

Uh-huh, that high-tech plasma weapon didn't even burn his spandex. If CA was nailed with a plasma caster he'd be dead. Face it, the Chitauri are losers. The Avengers should thank Odin they didn't have to fight someone competent.

I've already made my argument. She has no good H2H feats. Period. Fighting fail security guards that go down to cartwheels, fail russians that go down to hair whips and fail aliens that go down to freaking arrows do not count as good feats.

As for her appearance

1. I'm pretty sure she's not pregnant.
2. That last picture was taken months ago.
3. She's treated as a sex symbol because of her fame when she's really a 6.5/10 and it grinds my gears.

I'm not even a big fan of Baleman, it's just that he's better than her.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Psychotron
I've already made my argument. She has no good H2H feats. Period. Fighting fail security guards that go down to cartwheels, fail russians that go down to hair whips and fail aliens that go down to freaking arrows do not count as good feats.

And Hawkeye, who'd part of an organisation designed to fight superhuman threats and likely has extensive martial arts training.

And stop bashing her for her appearance. It's chauvinistic and incredibly petty.

Robtard

Originally posted by Psychotron

3. She's treated as a sex symbol because of her fame when she's really a 6.5/10 and it grinds my gears.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfhahklh5S1qaew1eo1_500.jpg

Newjak

Originally posted by Psychotron

Anyone could do what she did. Those guys go down to a hair whip ffs.

Batman has armor, he won't even feel her girly hits, and with his strength one hit is all he needs. Yeah cause anyone can beat three men while tied to a chair. And I like how you account everything she did by saying those guys were wimps, it couldn't be that she was just that good as was the intention of the movie.

Also I know it probably doesn't change your opinion of anything but is it really fair that batman gets to wear high caliber body armor which has knives attached to them but Natasha isn't allowed to use anything except fists?

Not that it matters I think Natasha still wins even if he has armor but shouldn't this be Bruce Wayne without his high tech bat armor vs Natasha to make it a true H2H test?

Psychotron

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Hawkeye, who'd part of an organisation designed to fight superhuman threats and likely has extensive martial arts training.

And stop bashing her for her appearance. It's chauvinistic and incredibly petty.

He was also mind-controlled. Convenient that you forgot about that.

No. It's unacceptable for a supposed sex-symbol in her twenties to be as out of shape as her. She should get in shape or stop taking hot chick roles.

Originally posted by Robtard
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfhahklh5S1qaew1eo1_500.jpg

http://www.google.bg/imgres?q=scarlett+johansson+fat&num=10&hl=bg&safe=off&biw=1366&bih=664&tbm=isch&tbnid=H36Jg7OeE7U31M:&imgrefurl=http://hollywooddame.com/2011/04/21/sean-penn-tells-scarlett-johansson-she%25E2%2580%2599s-fat/&docid=VmV1UokJVaD-nM&imgurl=http://hollywooddame.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Scarlett-Johansson-Weight-Gain.jpg&w=398&h=329&ei=jccWULX-CIzY4QS9w4GQAw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=619&sig=116489365294508726705&sqi=2&page=1&tbnh=146&tbnw=179&start=0&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:24,s:0,i:140&tx=131&ty=80

Her pot belly is bigger than her ****. That's not hot, man. Unless you're into that sort of thing...

Nephthys

Originally posted by Psychotron
He was also mind-controlled. Convenient that you forgot about that.

No. It's unacceptable for a supposed sex-symbol in her twenties to be as out of shape as her. She should get in shape or stop taking hot chick roles.

The mind-control doesn't affect abilities in any way from what I remember. Its not an issue.

Unacceptable? Since when do you have any say in whats acceptable for a woman to look like? How about you stfu on completely unrelated matters and get back to the thread before you put your foot in your mouth even more.

ares834

Originally posted by NemeBro
Let's be real. The Baleman supporters are only butthurt about the fact that a woman is beating the shit out of their dark brooding hero.

Not at all. I simply see no reason to put her on Batman's level when it come purely to H2H. She has only beat security guards, Hawkeye, and some Russian mobsters in strictly H2H. Nothing to scoff at mind you, but its simply doesn't compare to what Batman has fought.

Truthfully, she probably is beyond Batman, but she has yet to display it IMO.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Because Batman has definitely shown the onscreen agility to replicate BW's pod-hijacking feat. laughing out loud

Sure........

Strawman.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And stop bashing her for her appearance. It's chauvinistic and incredibly petty.

Agreed.

Tzeentch._

Originally posted by ares834
Not at all. I simply see no reason to put her on Batman's level when it come purely to H2H. She has only beat security guards, Hawkeye, and some Russian mobsters in strictly H2H. Nothing to scoff at mind you, but its simply doesn't compare to what Batman has fought. Who has Batman fought and beat through H2H?

LoS ninjas, who themselves have absolutely zero feats and have only implied ability?

Bane? Bane destroyed Bruce in a contest of pure H2H, and in the second fight Batman won by capitalizing on Bane's mask weakness, not outperforming him in hand-to-hand.

So if the crux of your argument is that the caliber of opponents is superior to the opponents Natasha fought, and Natasha herself, than please by all means provide the on-screen feats to prove it. No one cares about the implied ability that is "they're ninjas! So they have to be amazing fighters!"

Lestov16

Originally posted by ares834
Strawman.

I'm making the point that Bats does not have the reflexes or agility to compete with Natasha

Psychotron

Originally posted by Nephthys
The mind-control doesn't affect abilities in any way from what I remember. Its not an issue.

Unacceptable? Since when do you have any say in whats acceptable for a woman to look like? How about you stfu on completely unrelated matters and get back to the thread before you put your foot in your mouth even more.

Yes it does. He wasn't fighting with a clear head. Aside from that, Hawkeye doesn't have any relevant H2H feats either.

Since I pay for movies and she's there ruining them with her mediocre acting and average appearance. I mean, I wouldn't mind if she could act, but she can't. Look at Tom Hardy, his body is pretty mediocre in DKR, but he can act so it's not a problem.

Originally posted by Lestov16
I'm making the point that Bats does not have the reflexes or agility to compete with Natasha

And she doesn't have the strength to compete with him. Strength >>> agility.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Psychotron
Yes it does. He wasn't fighting with a clear head. Aside from that, Hawkeye doesn't have any relevant H2H feats either.

Since I pay for movies and she's there ruining them with her mediocre acting and average appearance. I mean, I wouldn't mind if she could act, but she can't. Look at Tom Hardy, his body is pretty mediocre in DKR, but he can act so it's not a problem.

Those affected by the Staff's mind-control still exhibit perfectly clear heads. Barton was still able to plan and lead the assualt on the Helicarrier as well as the theft at the beginning. Show me something that says that he would be diminished because of the Staff.

And yet you've only posted pictures of her outside the movie. She looks great in the actual movie. Once again: Shut the **** up you chauvinist *******.

ares834

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Who has Batman fought and beat through H2H?

LoS ninjas, who themselves have absolutely zero feats and have only implied ability?

Yes. However a fighter with implied H2H ability would reasonably be greater than one who does not. Ergo defeating the ninjas would be more impressive than defeating the mobsters.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._ Bane? Bane destroyed Bruce in a contest of pure H2H, and in the second fight Batman won by capitalizing on Bane's mask weakness, not outperforming him in hand-to-hand.

He wasn't merely capitalizing on Bane's weakness though. At times he would physically overpower Bane as seen when Bane grabbed Batman's fist and Bats wrenched Bane's arm downward and then hit Bane in the face. Furthermore, to get to Bane's mask he still had to get past Bane's defenses.

Tzeentch._

Originally posted by ares834
Yes. However a fighter with implied H2H ability would reasonably be greater than one who does not. Ergo defeating the ninjas would be more impressive than defeating the mobsters. Not really, as we have no idea who those mobsters were. They could have been Ex-Spetznas or some other special forces, for all we know.

He "got to Bane's mask" by literally throwing haymakers over and over again. lol

Can't help but notice you didn't actually do what I asked of you, btw. Nothing has been put fourth by you to make anyone think that anyone in the Baleman-verse is on Natasha's level or the level of the people she fought.

Nephthys

Psychotron

Originally posted by Nephthys
Those affected by the Staff's mind-control still exhibit perfectly clear heads. Barton was still able to plan and lead the assualt on the Helicarrier as well as the theft at the beginning. Show me something that says that he would be diminished because of the Staff.

And yet you've only posted pictures of her outside the movie. She looks great in the actual movie. Once again: Shut the **** up you chauvinist *******.

How about the doctor that made the plot device button? That proves they resist the staff's influence to at least some degree. So, Hawkeye wasn't a 100% in the fight.

Real life's hard to ignore. Besides, you could tell she had gained weight since IM2. She looked a lot better. Her ass was a bit flabby in the avengers. Don't get so butthurt, it's not my fault she's too lazy.

Tzeentch._

Shhh, Neph. They lowballed that away already!

She didn't actually defeat them while tied to a chair. They... they let her beat them up!

Newjak

Also I'm pretty sure the three Russian mobsters were military. One was wearing a military suit.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Psychotron
How about the doctor that made the plot device button? That proves they resist the staff's influence to at least some degree. So, Hawkeye wasn't a 100% in the fight.

Real life's hard to ignore. Besides, you could tell she had gained weight since IM2. She looked a lot better. Her ass was a bit flabby in the avengers. Don't get so butthurt, it's not my fault she's too lazy.

It proves the doctor had enough willpower to resist it, not Hawkeye. Last I checked he was full-on trying to kill her with a dagger and his bow.

I'm not even dignifying you with responses about that anymore. Just get back on topic.

ares834

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Not really, as we have no idea who those mobsters were. They could have been Ex-Spetznas or some other special forces, for all we know.

They could have been doesn't cut it. There is no reasonable reason to believe that those mobsters were some monsters in H2H.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
He "got to Bane's mask" by literally throwing haymakers over and over again. lol

Just goes to show you how bad ass Bats is. big grin

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Can't help but notice you didn't actually do what I asked of you, btw.

Bane. Even if it was through ripping apart his mask, Batman beat Bane in H2H.

Furthermore, Batman has the better strength feats.

Robtard

Originally posted by Psychotron

Her pot belly is bigger than her ****. That's not hot, man. Unless you're into that sort of thing...

That's not a pot belly;this is.

So she's gained a few pounds off camera. Seems like you're going WAY out of your way to make an attractive girl seem unattractive. Which is straight-up a gay maneuver.

Psychotron

Originally posted by Robtard
That's not a pot belly;this is.

So she's gained a few pounds off camera. Seems like you're going WAY out of your way to make an attractive girl seem unattractive. Which is straight-up a gay maneuver.

She was kind of out of shape in the Avengers as well. Especially compared to some of her older movies. I already said she's a 6.5/10, that's attractive, just not as attractive some people like to believe. She used to be an 8/10 or maybe even a 9 in some of her older movies, but not anymore. I'd certainly plow her, but there are plenty of hotter girls out on the streets.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It proves the doctor had enough willpower to resist it, not Hawkeye. Last I checked he was full-on trying to kill her with a dagger and his bow.

I'm not even dignifying you with responses about that anymore. Just get back on topic.

I can't believe we're even discussing this. People don't fight as well when they're not in their right mind. You think some random professor was resisting the mind control, but mister super-spy couldn't? Ridiculous.

Robtard

Originally posted by Psychotron
She was kind of out of shape in the Avengers as well. Especially compared to some of her older movies. I already said she's a 6.5/10, that's attractive, just not as attractive some people like to believe. She used to be an 8/10 or maybe even a 9 in some of her older movies, but not anymore. I'd certainly plow her, but there are plenty of hotter girls out on the streets.

How was she out of shape in The Avengers? Seems like more reaching.

What, when she was 14?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9K0_IrMpO7s/SWYurc93ERI/AAAAAAAAARE/zt-hOcZCOKc/s320/johanssonmovie_12%5B1%5D.jpg

PEDOALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!11!!!

Psychotron

Originally posted by Robtard
How was she out of shape in The Avengers? Seems like more reaching.

What, when she was 14?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9K0_IrMpO7s/SWYurc93ERI/AAAAAAAAARE/zt-hOcZCOKc/s320/johanssonmovie_12%5B1%5D.jpg

PEDOALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!11!!!

Meh, just seemed softer somehow compared to IM2. Her ass was bigger for sure.

I was thinking 19, in the Island. But 14 is legal over here so if there's grass on the field...

Nephthys

14 is legal? Where do you live, Japan?

Originally posted by Psychotron
I can't believe we're even discussing this. People don't fight as well when they're not in their right mind. You think some random professor was resisting the mind control, but mister super-spy couldn't? Ridiculous.

As I recall random professor guy completely shook it off at the end whereas Barton needed an introduction to a railing. Either way, theres no indication that he was impaired, plus he had advantages in that fight anyway. IIRC he used his bow and a knife to try and kill her while she was strictly H2H while only trying to incapacitate him.

Lestov16

Originally posted by Psychotron
People don't fight as well when they're not in their right mind

You have no proof to validate this. At what point was it implied in The Avengers that Hawkeye lost any skill because of his mind control? Matter of fact, he was kicking a lot of ass when he was pwning the Helicarrier.

Matter of fact, the mind control has no affect on their psychological skills at all, as evidenced at the beginning, when Clint, despite being mind-controlled, could still deduce that Fury was trying to stall so he could collapse the building

It seems like you are reaching......

Robtard

Originally posted by Nephthys
14 is legal? Where do you live, Japan?

A lot of the Slavic countries have really young AoC. Pedos love that.

Nephthys

Technically at that age it would be closer to Ephebophiles, not Pedos, but huh, I didn't know that.

Zack Fair

Maybe its just me but I prefer my sex symbols with skin.

Tzeentch._

Originally posted by ares834
They could have been doesn't cut it. Corect. There is no reason to assume that ninjas are amazing fighters just because they're ninjas. Show me their screen feats please!

Batman got his back broken by Bane in H2H.

Show me Bane's screen feats!

Robtard

Pedos, dude.

ares834

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Corect. There is no reason to assume that ninjas are amazing fighters just because they're ninjas. Show me their screen feats please!

Did I say they were amazing fighters? No. However, logically they would be greater than mobsters who we have no reason to believe are competent in H2H.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Batman got his back broken by Bane in H2H.

Show me Bane's screen feats!

And then in their re-fight beat Bane.

Psychotron

Originally posted by Nephthys
14 is legal? Where do you live, Japan?

As I recall random professor guy completely shook it off at the end whereas Barton needed an introduction to a railing. Either way, theres no indication that he was impaired, plus he had advantages in that fight anyway. IIRC he used his bow and a knife to try and kill her while she was strictly H2H while only trying to incapacitate him.

Not Japan. Anyway, I was only joking, 15-16 is fine, but 14 is a little too young.

Random professor guy had much more time to resist the effects of the mind-control. Also, isn't Barton supposed to be trained to resist physical and mental torture. It's unlikely he wouldn't resist to at least some degree. And it's not like Barton has any H2H feats either.

Robtard

You didn't pay attention.

1) That mind-control was magical in nature (ie technology so advanced it seems like magic)

2) Hawkeye does have H2H feats

wakkawakkawakka

Batman did take on a S.W.A.T team prior to the Bane fight IIRC. Besides if Ras was able to give Batman a good fight when he was in shape w/o any fancy gadgets, then I'd argue that Natasha could certainly do better.

Also Batman didn't really get the upper hand in that fight until he used the mask weakness. So overall I say Black Widow wins.

McNasty996

Originally posted by ares834

And then in their re-fight beat Bane.

In the refight Batman was still getting his ass handed to him. They locked punches again and Batman was AGAIN overpowered, this time he just head butted him.

The whole fight was him on the defensive getting his ass whopped and swinging for the mask. Bane wasn't even guarding the mask.

On topic Black Widow wins.

ares834

No, rewatch the fight. Batman forces Bane's hand away and then uppercuts him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QkAEe6GZh8

Nephthys

Originally posted by Psychotron
Not Japan. Anyway, I was only joking, 15-16 is fine, but 14 is a little too young.

Random professor guy had much more time to resist the effects of the mind-control. Also, isn't Barton supposed to be trained to resist physical and mental torture. It's unlikely he wouldn't resist to at least some degree. And it's not like Barton has any H2H feats either.

Much more time as in.... a few extra hours? Dude, theres nothing showing that Barton was affected by it. Lestov16 is right, you're reaching.

McNasty996

Originally posted by ares834
No, rewatch the fight. Batman forces Bane's hand away and then uppercuts him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QkAEe6GZh8

You can see Bane forcing Batmans hand away right before Batman swings for his mask with his other hand

ares834

That's clearly with his left hand.

Psychotron

Originally posted by Robtard
You didn't pay attention.

1) That mind-control was magical in nature (ie technology so advanced it seems like magic)

2) Hawkeye does have H2H feats

Being magical in nature is irrelevant. We know for a fact that he doesn't want to kill her, and we know a normal guy without any training can resist the staff's influence to a degree. 2+2=?

Aside from fighting Widow? Remind me.

Tzeentch._

Originally posted by ares834
Did I say they were amazing fighters? No. However, logically they would be greater than mobsters who we have no reason to believe are competent in H2H. Logically, you have no basis to make that assumption as you have no idea what experience those mobsters may or may not have had.

Screen feats for the ninja please!

Actually, Catwoman defeated Bane. IIRC Batman was lying on the ground soaking in a puddle of his own blood. I mean, as long as we're ignoring context here.

Lestov16

Originally posted by Psychotron
Being magical in nature is irrelevant.

Lol. No. No it isn't. It's VERY relevant. It means that we can not discern it's nature, and are unable to determine whether it's effects dampen neurological processes. However, given how much ass Hawkeye kicked while under mind-control, it's not likely

Originally posted by Psychotron
We know for a fact that he doesn't want to kill her,

Mind control does that...

Originally posted by Psychotron
and we know a normal guy without any training can resist the staff's influence to a degree.

He didn't resist the staff. IIRC he got knocked the phuck out when Tony tried to shoot the tesseract

Originally posted by Psychotron
2+2=?

Fish.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Aside from fighting Widow? Remind me.

WTFpwning the helicarrier. If your supposed "Mind Control Malfunction" was true, then Hawkeye should not have had the skill to make that nigh-impossible shot he made to the Helicarrier. Just like he wouldn't have been able to deduce Fury's stalling.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Also, isn't Barton supposed to be trained to resist physical and mental torture. It's unlikely he wouldn't resist to at least some degree.

lol at you for trying to strawman the interrogation techniques of earth when it's clearly not comparable to extraterrestrial technology

Originally posted by Psychotron
And it's not like Barton has any H2H feats either.

He had the fight scene with Widow, which was wayyy better choreographed than any in the DK trilogy

The mind control has no affect on the character's physical or psychological abilities, and you are trying to use it as a strawman to downplay Hawkeye, so you can use that as a strawman to downplay Widow.

Psychotron

Originally posted by Lestov16
Lol. No. No it isn't. It's VERY relevant. It means that we can not discern it's nature, and are unable to determine whether it's effects dampen neurological processes. However, given how much ass Hawkeye kicked while under mind-control, it's not likely

Mind control does that...

He didn't resist the staff. IIRC he got knocked the phuck out when Tony tried to shoot the tesseract

Fish.

WTFpwning the helicarrier. If your supposed "Mind Control Malfunction" was true, then Hawkeye should not have had the skill to make that nigh-impossible shot he made to the Helicarrier. Just like he wouldn't have been able to deduce Fury's stalling.

lol at you for trying to strawman the interrogation techniques of earth when it's clearly not comparable to extraterrestrial technology

He had the fight scene with Widow, which was wayyy better choreographed than any in the DK trilogy

The mind control has no affect on the character's physical or psychological abilities, and you are trying to use it as a strawman to downplay Hawkeye, so you can use that as a strawman to downplay Widow.

He didn't want to kill her subconsciously is what I mean.

He'd been building a plot device button the whole time he was working for Loki.

I'm not saying Hawkeye was completely inept, but there's no way he was 100%.

Oh, yeah. Super-advanced alien tech - cured by a bump on the head.

I know you're joking now. Widow's fight scenes are easily among the worst in all of superhero movies. Women are never going to be taken seriously as on-screen fighters as long as they keep hiring actresses with no skill like ScarJo. And what are you trying to prove here? Widow can fight Hawkeye so she's good, we know Hawkeye's good because he can fight Widow?

Lestov16

Originally posted by Psychotron
He didn't want to kill her subconsciously is what I mean.

But he got damn near close....

Originally posted by Psychotron
He'd been building a plot device button the whole time he was working for Loki.

I thought he built it already for Loki, and was just able to utilize it because he wasn't mind-controlled anymore

Originally posted by Psychotron
I'm not saying Hawkeye was completely inept, but there's no way he was 100%.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe that. Other than following Loki's orders, I did not see Clint impaired any way, physically or psychologically

Originally posted by Psychotron
Oh, yeah. Super-advanced alien tech - cured by a bump on the head.

So?

Originally posted by Psychotron
Widow's fight scenes are easily among the worst in all of superhero movies.

I know you're joking now laughing out loud

You mean to tell me that this

THNbKOs8hM0

is better choreographed than this?

lol no

Originally posted by Psychotron
Women are never going to be taken seriously as on-screen fighters as long as they keep hiring actresses with no skill like ScarJo.

Blame the fight choreographer. Not the actress. And her fight scenes were a shit load more entertaining than Baleman's

Originally posted by Psychotron
And what are you trying to prove here? Widow can fight Hawkeye so she's good, we know Hawkeye's good because he can fight Widow?

I've already proven that Widow (and Hawkeye) are far better combatants than Baleman and his unagile slowness

ares834

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Logically, you have no basis to make that assumption as you have no idea what experience those mobsters may or may not have had.

Screen feats for the ninja please!

Yes, actually I do. There is a logical reason to believe that the ninja would have experience in hand-to-hand combat not so with the mobsters.

Basically, we know that Batman is defeating competent fighters in H2H combat; we don't know if Black Widow is.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Actually, Catwoman defeated Bane. IIRC Batman was lying on the ground soaking in a puddle of his own blood. I mean, as long as we're ignoring context here.

Except Batman still beat Bane in H2H. Sure, he capitilzed on his weakness but it's pretty much analgous to kicking a guy in the balls. Perhaps it's "cheap" but in the end you still win.

Lestov16

Originally posted by ares834
Yes, actually I do. There is a logical reason to believe that the ninja would have experience in hand-to-hand combat not so with the mobsters.

Didn't they kick Bruce's ass when they raided his mansion in Begins?

Originally posted by ares834
Basically, we know that Batman is defeating competent fighters in H2H combat;

Not doing a good job of it if he is able to be grabbed from behind and held down by local mob goons

Also, I have yet to see Batman take on any opponent of BW's agility, so all this talk of ninjas and mobsters is strawmanning.

Originally posted by ares834
we don't know if Black Widow is.

Seriously?

Originally posted by ares834
Except Batman still beat Bane in H2H.

Except it wasn't H2H. Bane was manhandling him H2H and Bats had to improvise "Hand-2-Mask"

Originally posted by ares834
Sure, he capitilzed on his weakness but it's pretty much analgous to kicking a guy in the balls.

laughing

No way is Bale's slow, unagile ass is going to get BW in such a position before she KO's him in 3 seconds

Also, you act like that was some slick martial arts move he did, grabbing Bane's mask. It was an act of desperation because Bane's fists were getting comfortable in their new residence which is Baleman's face

Originally posted by ares834
Perhaps it's "cheap" but in the end you still win.

A very, very unimpressive win

ares834

Originally posted by Lestov16
Didn't they kick Bruce's ass when they raided his mansion in Begins?

Don't remember TBH. However, after Ra's is poisoning Gotham ha battles four ninja at once.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Not doing a good job of it if he is able to be grabbed from behind and held down by local mob goons

Ooh, the typical low ball argument.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Also, I have yet to see Batman take on any opponent of BW's agility, so all this talk of ninjas and mobsters is strawmanning.

Lol, how is it strawmanning? DO you even know what a strawman is?

Originally posted by Lestov16
Seriously?

I'm not saying Black Widow is incompetent in combat, but rather we have no reason to believe that the mobsters and guards she defeated are.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Except it wasn't H2H. Bane was manhandling him H2H and Bats had to improvise "Hand-2-Mask"

You must have not watched the movie because there was no "manhandling" going on in the second fight.

Originally posted by Lestov16
laughing

No way is Bale's slow, unagile ass is going to get BW in such a position before she KO's him in 3 seconds

laughing

I'm fine with people believing BW wins. And I will admit she does look flashy, but the notion she is going to defeat Bats in 3 seconds is straight up laughable.

Basically at the end we have Bats defeating competent fighters in combat including Ra's, bane, and the ninja. Meanwhile, the only person that BW has defeated that we can reasonably assume is competent is Hawkeye. Personally, I think assessing which one is victorious based on who they have defeated is more reasonable than which one looks to fight better as the latter is somewhat subjective.

Lestov16

Originally posted by ares834
Don't remember TBH. However, after Ra's is poisoning Gotham ha battles four ninja at once.

You mean this poorly choreographed fight scene?

PgWCZvowEjY

Originally posted by ares834
Ooh, the typical low ball argument.

You mean the argument which shows how Bats is inferior to BW in H2H? I'm not lowballing, i'm showing how Bats is not near BW in skill or agility

Originally posted by ares834
Lol, how is it strawmanning? DO you even know what a strawman is?

Yes..........he's made of straw........and I think Nick Cage and some bees had something to do with it.....

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not saying Black Widow is incompetent in combat, but rather we have no reason to believe that the mobsters and guards she defeated are.

But none of that matters. We can clearly see that she is far more agile and skilled in H2H than Bruce.

Originally posted by ares834
You must have not watched the movie because there was no "manhandling" going on in the second fight.

Well........I am poor, so no, I haven't seen TDKR yet. However, based on this:

_QkAEe6GZh8

It's quite apparent that the choreography hasn't made any radical improvements.

Also quite apparent that, while not getting "manhandled", Bats doesn't have any significant advantage in the fight

Originally posted by ares834
I'm fine with people believing BW wins.

We know she wins based off the basic common sense logic that Bats is clearly not agile enough to keep up with her

Originally posted by ares834
And I will admit she does look flashy,

She's Scarlett Johannsen. I'd go gay just so she could phuck me straight

Originally posted by ares834
but the notion she is going to defeat Bats in 3 seconds is straight up laughable.

Not laughable

1OJqPJRjHkE

Highly Likely

Originally posted by ares834
Basically at the end we have Bats defeating competent fighters in combat including Ra's, bane, and the ninja.

In slow, unagile, poorly-choreographed fights

Originally posted by ares834
Meanwhile, the only person that BW has defeated that we can reasonably assume is competent is Hawkeye.

In a far more awesome and well-choreographed fight than any of Bats'

Originally posted by ares834
Personally, I think assessing which one is victorious based on who they have defeated is more reasonable than which one looks to fight better as the latter is somewhat subjective.

Not really. If I only saw the scenes in the Bourne Trilogy where Bourne pwned the cops, I'd still be able to gage his skill level.

Personally, I think assessing which one has better onscreen feats is more reasonable

ares834

Originally posted by Lestov16
Personally, I think assessing which one has better onscreen feats is more reasonable

I'd agree.

Which is why I'm relying on what they have defeated. Attempting to assess which is better based on how it looks is somewhat subjective which is why I refrain from it. I always have. Consider SW, visually the most impressive duelist is Maul. But would I consider him to be superior to Mace Windu who is slow in comparison? Hell no.

Lestov16

Originally posted by ares834
Which is why I'm relying on what they have defeated.

Okay.

Batman against mob goons: Gets subdued and held down and has to struggle to pull off a win

Black Widow against mob goons: WTFpwns them all effortlessly, and unlike Batman in the Penthouse, she didn't have an advantageous position or armor and was in fact tied up and surrounded

ares834

And yet you continue on attempting to take what is perhaps Batman's worst fight and match it with Black Widows best...

In Begins we have him taking down numerous goons at once in an almost effortless fashion:
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We also have that Ninja scene you provided earlier.

Here we have him taking several guys rather effortlessly as well:
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Really, your average goon poses almost no threat to Batman in H2H.

Lestov16

Really, your average Baleman fight is absolutely unimpressive compared to BW

Psychotron

Originally posted by Lestov16
But he got damn near close....

I thought he built it already for Loki, and was just able to utilize it because he wasn't mind-controlled anymore

I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe that. Other than following Loki's orders, I did not see Clint impaired any way, physically or psychologically

So?

I know you're joking now laughing out loud

You mean to tell me that this

THNbKOs8hM0

is better choreographed than this?

lol no

Blame the fight choreographer. Not the actress. And her fight scenes were a shit load more entertaining than Baleman's

I've already proven that Widow (and Hawkeye) are far better combatants than Baleman and his unagile slowness

Close, but no quite there.

I'm pretty sure Loki didn't want it, he put it there on his own.

What what did you expect to see? Hawkeye tripping on a banana peel?

So it's not that good. It can be somewhat resisted and fixed with a hit on the head. It kind of sucks as far as magic goes.

Black Widow's fights just make no sense. Her opponents go down to moves that can't put down children. You seriously think a real fighter or soldier would go down to freaking cartwheels and hair-whips? Batman fight scenes have problems, but at least they look more plausible.

I just finished watching Haywire. Crap movie, but Gina Carano's fights look better because she knows what she's doing. You can't put an untrained actress and expect her to look convincing as a martial artist.

Batman has his armor, her hits won't do crap but his concrete-breaking fists will bust her up. Strength >> Agility

NemeBro

The hair-whip was meant to be a headbutt. It was a choreography fail.

Lestov16

Originally posted by Psychotron
Close, but no quite there.

I'm pretty sure Loki didn't want it, he put it there on his own.

What what did you expect to see? Hawkeye tripping on a banana peel?

So it's not that good. It can be somewhat resisted and fixed with a hit on the head. It kind of sucks as far as magic goes.

Black Widow's fights just make no sense. Her opponents go down to moves that can't put down children. You seriously think a real fighter or soldier would go down to freaking cartwheels and hair-whips? Batman fight scenes have problems, but at least they look more plausible.

I just finished watching Haywire. Crap movie, but Gina Carano's fights look better because she knows what she's doing. You can't put an untrained actress and expect her to look convincing as a martial artist.

Batman has his armor, her hits won't do crap but his concrete-breaking fists will bust her up. Strength >> Agility

Closer than Bats will ever get

You are correct, according to the wikis. Still. You have yet to prove that it dampened Clint's physical prowess, considering he made that nigh-impossible shot to the Helicarrier

Like I said above

Once again, yes the crow tastes delicious

Doesn't matter how much it defies real-world physics. In her world, she has strength like that

Yes you can if you have the right fight choreographer and training. Matt Damon did it.

Considering this random mook was able to punch him in the face (
0:16 ), I doubt the protective abilities of the mask. All she has to do is KO him right? She's not trying to remove the mask or anything?

Tzeentch._

Originally posted by ares834
Yes, actually I do. There is a logical reason to believe that the ninja would have experience in hand-to-hand combat not so with the mobsters.Saying it over and over doesn't make it true. Prove it.

No, it isn't, because while "kicking a man in the nuts" is a weakness that can be found in any man, damaging his facemask is not. If Bane hadn't been susceptible to having his mask damaged he would have clobbered Batman with his superior skill and strength.

And you're dancing around the fact that you've yet to provide any evidence of Bane or anyone in those movies being a batter fighter than Natasha. It's not like I'm going to just forget that the onus is on you. lol

ares834

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Saying it over and over doesn't make it true. Prove it.

But it is true. We have reason to believe Ninja's are capable H2H fighters. They're ninjas after all... Plus we see there training in Begins.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
No, it isn't, because while "kicking a man in the nuts" is a weakness that can be found in any man, damaging his facemask is not. If Bane hadn't been susceptible to having his mask damaged he would have clobbered Batman with his superior skill and strength.

Did I say Batman defeated him through superior skill and strength? No. Only that he beat him in hand to hand, which is true. And no I don't see a difference just because this weakness is unique to Bane.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
And you're dancing around the fact that you've yet to provide any evidence of Bane or anyone in those movies being a batter fighter than Natasha. It's not like I'm going to just forget that the onus is on you. lol

Except I never said Bane was.

Batman has the better feats in defeating the Ninjas which, when combined with his strength advantage, makes him appear to be the superior combatant.

Nephthys

IIRC we only see their training in the art of deception and stealth. We don't see any of them training in H2H.

Either way, its not a better feat than Natasha beating those guys while tied to a fricking chair.

ares834

Nah, I'd disagree with you there. Her beating them up on the chair is great and all but I'd say defeating four ninja is more impressive.

Plus he is stronger and takes several concrete busting blows rather nonchalantly.

Nephthys

I think that's just subjective then. I see it as better, you don't.

And BW shrugged off a blow from the Hulk. I know which I see as more impressive.

Tzeentch._

Originally posted by ares834
But it is true. We have reason to believe Ninja's are capable H2H fighters. They're ninjas after all... Plus we see there training in Begins. No, "they're ninjas" doesn't mean that they're automatically superior fighters to the mobsters. Prove it.

In which case Bane is irrelevant to this scenario.

So basically, you think Batman wins because... you like his character more. Bad form, dude.

ares834

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
No, "they're ninjas" doesn't mean that they're automatically superior fighters to the mobsters. Prove it.

My bad. I'm not saying that they are superior to the mobsters. Rather I am saying we have reason to believe that they are competent. However, we have no reason to believe that the mobsters are.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
In which case Bane is irrelevant to this scenario.

Pretty much. But it's not only due to that. Characters like Ra's, Bane, and Hawkeye get their H2H feats based on how well they fared against Batman or, in Hawkeye's case, BW. As such it's impossible to really use these fights to gauge the hero's skill.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
So basically, you think Batman wins because... you like his character more. That isn't really a good argument, no offense.

Not at all. I see his battle against the ninja to be more impressive. He also holds a sizable strength advantage.

Zack Fair

I'm siding with Natasha...but I gotta say I was impressed when I realized Bane could punch holes in concrete pillars. Suddenly it made sense how Bane's fists were doing so much damage to a semi-armored Bruce.

Lestov16

Originally posted by ares834
Not at all. I see his battle against the ninja to be more impressive.

But that fight was horribly choreographed. If that's the best you can provide of Bruce's skill, I'm firm in saying BW takes it

Originally posted by ares834
He also holds a sizable strength advantage.

You sure about that?

00:43

She tosses a grown man into the air with her legs

ares834

Originally posted by Lestov16
But that fight was horribly choreographed. If that's the best you can provide of Bruce's skill, I'm firm in saying BW takes it

Fair enough. But as I said earlier choreography doesn't mean all that much to me.

Originally posted by Lestov16
You sure about that?

00:43

She tosses a grown man into the air with her legs

no expression

BruceSkywalker

I am surprised this thread is still going..

Newjak

Originally posted by ares834
Fair enough. But as I said earlier choreography doesn't mean all that much to me.

no expression

That pales in comparison to what Batman does. That involves a ton of momentum and she never really lifts the guy off the floor. Batman "armcurls" a full grown man in Begins, shatters a brick with a kick, knocks Bane into the air with a kick, and manages to nearly match Bane in arm strength in their second fight... And Bane's punches shatter concrete! When it comes to pure strength there is no contest. I rewatched the second fight and Bane was still murking him. Yeah there is one scene where you can argue Batman managed to 'overpower' Bane but he was in by far the better position than what Bane was. Also pretty sure Bane was holding back the entire time as evidenced when he went psycho.

Newjak

Originally posted by ares834
Nah, I'd disagree with you there. Her beating them up on the chair is great and all but I'd say defeating four ninja is more impressive.

Plus he is stronger and takes several concrete busting blows rather nonchalantly. I don't even think it's subjective.

Beating three grown men while tied to a chair is better than beating 4 ninjas who have no feats.

Seriously do you have any idea how hard it would be to fight in that condition.

Batman had superior armor weapons in his fight Natasha had nothing and the men were armed and she was still able to take them down while tied to a chair.

Also as far as the interrogation went they weren't mobsters but military Why do you think Natasha was calling him General such and such.

Psychotron

Originally posted by Lestov16
Closer than Bats will ever get

You are correct, according to the wikis. Still. You have yet to prove that it dampened Clint's physical prowess, considering he made that nigh-impossible shot to the Helicarrier

Like I said above

Once again, yes the crow tastes delicious

Doesn't matter how much it defies real-world physics. In her world, she has strength like that

Yes you can if you have the right fight choreographer and training. Matt Damon did it.

Considering this random mook was able to punch him in the face (
0:16 ), I doubt the protective abilities of the mask. All she has to do is KO him right? She's not trying to remove the mask or anything?

You wish.

I'm saying it dampened his mental prowess.

And in Batman's world she gets a busted face.

You're wrong. Just compare Bourne's shaky-cam crap with the fights in a Michael Jay White or Scott Adkins movie.

It took multiple shots from Bane before it broke, so I doubt Widow can do much. Especially when Baleman nearly matched Bane in strength and owned him in their second fight.

Newjak

Originally posted by Psychotron
You wish.

I'm saying it dampened his mental prowess.

And in Batman's world she gets a busted face.

You're wrong. Just compare Bourne's shaky-cam crap with the fights in a Michael Jay White or Scott Adkins movie.

It took multiple shots from Bane before it broke, so I doubt Widow can do much. Especially when Baleman nearly matched Bane in strength and owned him in their second fight. Dude she did the feats regardless of whether you like them or think they are viable. She did them they worked plain and simple.

Also did you just compare Michael Jai White to Mat Daemon as a comparison of fighting choreography.

Listen man there is a reason why MJW's fights look better, because he is a highly trained and highly formidable martial artists. He isn't an actor who spent 3 months learning a MA for a film. It's something he has dedicated his life to.

They don't have to do special camera shots or movie magic to make him look like a good MAist because he is one.

And this still has no bearing on the feats Natasha pulled off. Just because you didn't like them doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Psychotron

Originally posted by Newjak
Dude she did the feats regardless of whether you like them or think they are viable. She did them they worked plain and simple.

Also did you just compare Michael Jai White to Mat Daemon as a comparison of fighting choreography.

Listen man there is a reason why MJW's fights look better, because he is a highly trained and highly formidable martial artists. He isn't an actor who spent 3 months learning a MA for a film. It's something he has dedicated his life to.

They don't have to do special camera shots or movie magic to make him look like a good MAist because he is one.

And this still has no bearing on the feats Natasha pulled off. Just because you didn't like them doesn't mean they didn't happen.

They wouldn't have worked on the LoS or Bane. She fought only weaklings.

That's my point. Hollywood should stop putting guys like Matt Daemon (or women like Scarlett) in action roles. It doesn't work.

She pulled them off in her fights with security guards, she'll fail against Baleman. One brick-shattering kick and it's over.

Newjak

Originally posted by Psychotron
They wouldn't have worked on the LoS or Bane. She fought only weaklings.

That's my point. Hollywood should stop putting guys like Matt Daemon (or women like Scarlett) in action roles. It doesn't work.

She pulled them off in her fights with security guards, she'll fail against Baleman. One brick-shattering kick and it's over. The problem is you are only assigning them to be weak because Natasha used moves you think are stupid to beat them. The whole point of the scene is to show the opposite.

So despite what you want to believe. Natasha found herself tied to a chair facing three adult men who under the circumstances likely had military experience since they were following a general and no general is going to not take guys with military backgrounds.

I mean it doesn't even matter if they were weak. You could take a very strong, very talented fighter and put them in the same situation against three weak people and that MAer is going to get their @$$ whooped if they are tied to a chair.

The thing is you assuming that Natahsa isn't skilled because you don't like the choreography or the moves she was using cause you think they are weak and bad, but that goes completely against the entire purpose of that scene. It was to show that she is a BA who can take three fully grown men down while tied to a chair.

And there is a reason why they choose ACTORS instead of MAers for those rolls. Cause at the end of the day at some point you are gonna want them to act, and have to pull off an actual scene of character development.

Are you one of those people who say only wrestlers should portray Superheros cause they are the only ones who can look the part?

Psychotron

Originally posted by Newjak
The problem is you are only assigning them to be weak because Natasha used moves you think are stupid to beat them. The whole point of the scene is to show the opposite.

So despite what you want to believe. Natasha found herself tied to a chair facing three adult men who under the circumstances likely had military experience since they were following a general and no general is going to not take guys with military backgrounds.

I mean it doesn't even matter if they were weak. You could take a very strong, very talented fighter and put them in the same situation against three weak people and that MAer is going to get their @$$ whooped if they are tied to a chair.

The thing is you assuming that Natahsa isn't skilled because you don't like the choreography or the moves she was using cause you think they are weak and bad, but that goes completely against the entire purpose of that scene. It was to show that she is a BA who can take three fully grown men down while tied to a chair.

And there is a reason why they choose ACTORS instead of MAers for those rolls. Cause at the end of the day at some point you are gonna want them to act, and have to pull off an actual scene of character development.

Are you one of those people who say only wrestlers should portray Superheros cause they are the only ones who can look the part?

If that is the point of the scene then they failed. Not my fault they chose such crappy choreography. Can you seriously imagine Batman or Bane going down to a cart wheeling 5'2 100 pound girl? I can't see it. The fact is her moves made no goddamn sense. If you can toss someone on the ground and ko them just like that, well, something is wrong with them.

The interrogation scene is just as bad. One of the guys gets hit with her HAIR and stumbles back, or that guy whose hand she breaks when she slightly turns it. I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously. it's one thing when a superhuman does this crap, but when powerless person does it with sheer skill the movie should reflect that, not do some cartoony fight scene.

Not like Black Widow need any acting skill. Her character was the definition of cliche. Who said anything about wrestlers? Although, even a wrestler would have made a better Bane than Tom Hardy.