Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

DCNU Faircild:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60352/2079418-jnjm.png

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60352/1839809-cbv.png

Pre Reboot Supergirl

http://images.wikia.com/superman/images/b/b0/Supergirl.jpg

Pre Reboot WW:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/78647/2344850-hiketeia2_5.jpg

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/51/5127/SBXEG00Z/posters/david-williams-she-hulk-38-cover-she-hulk.jpg

http://gallery.xcave.net/images/comics/dc/bigbarda/BigBarda_MoS043_07.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/b/b8/Maxima_002.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/9311/2199792-tigra_1_.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/102855/1896807-mary_marvel___colored2_5b1_5d_super.jpg

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/14400000/Donna-Troy-dc-comics-14486541-265-423.jpg

vs

WBH

Thanos

No BFR

Common Thanos really?

Thanos is powerful but he's not THAT powerful. There are some serious heavy hitters on the women team. Women win.

WBH punch Thanos and kill everyone on the battlefield. Team/WBH wins 10/10.

Thanos and the Hulk at that level? The women stand no chance at all.

Team 2.

OP is going to need proper editing.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Thanos is powerful but he's not THAT powerful. There are some serious heavy hitters on the women team. Women win.

Like? Maybe im missing something

Tigra is the game changer here

Originally posted by -Pr-
OP is going to need proper editing.

Missing some names?

Originally posted by Stoic
Missing some names?

Can't see all the pics I only see Diana, shulk, and Kara

Originally posted by Stoic
Missing some names?

Yep.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Can't see all the pics I only see Diana, shulk, and Kara

Sersi, Tigra, Mary Marvel, Maxima, Barda, She Hulk, Wonder Woman, Fairchild, and Super Girl are on the field.

Sersi and maxima are the biggest guns and I don't see them taking Thanos for the maj

7 heralds against WWH and Thanos.

Of the heralds, WW, Sersi, and Maxima are pretty big threats, the rest less so.

Of the non-heralds, She Hulk and Fairchild are of some use, and Tigra just has no business being here, she's maybe a distraction.

Hm, victory is not out of the question.

Originally posted by Stoic
Sersi, Tigra, Mary Marvel, Maxima, Barda, She Hulk, Wonder Woman, Fairchild, and Super Girl are on the field.

Yes, but he didn't write all of their names.

The Women own this. Mary Marvel + WW would be a good fight, but adding all the others (including Supergirl) really stacks it against them.

Hulk and Thanos go down.

Originally posted by ColossusGrundy
The Women own this. Mary Marvel + WW would be a good fight, but adding all the others (including Supergirl) really stacks it against them.

Hulk and Thanos go down.
No

Originally posted by ColossusGrundy
The Women own this. Mary Marvel + WW would be a good fight, but adding all the others (including Supergirl) really stacks it against them.

Hulk and Thanos go down.


You have no idea how powerful those two are do you? Alone they would wreck a team of Heralds. Together... oh boy. They are each Trans level characters, none of the punches from these women or the energy hits are going to be effective against them. Thanos smiled as the Surfer blasted him in the face, the Hulk on WB level did not feel the strikes of characters that are on the level of the most powerful women on the field. They all die brutally.

Thanos and Hulk end up fighting over who keeps the harem.

Originally posted by Stoic
You have no idea how powerful those two are do you? Alone they would wreck a team of Heralds. Together... oh boy. They are each Trans level characters, none of the punches from these women or the energy hits are going to be effective against them. Thanos smiled as the Surfer blasted him in the face, the Hulk on WB level did not feel the strikes of characters that are on the level of the most powerful women on the field. They all die brutally.

I have plenty of idea how powerful these two are.

Put Mary Marvel, WW, and Supergirl on par with a low end Superman and tell me Thanos would smile at that.

I am by no means saying it would be one sided, but there's too much offense on team 1. I am also considering superspeed, flight, and a few other things besides just strength and toughness, since they'll definitely use them all.

Thanos is routinely written to be above top tiers. He alone could take a number of the women's team. Throw in Hulk and they've got more than enough sheer power to win here, unless Sersi/Diana pull off some crazy space shit (the women *do* have a chance to win if WW can incapacitate one of both of the duo with her lasso).

Thanos and Hulk for a decisive majority.

Originally posted by ColossusGrundy
The Women own this. Mary Marvel + WW would be a good fight,

Not really. You need more than 2 heralds against Thanos alone, even high heralds like Wondy (and Mary is not that level).

The best strategy would probably be to have 5 or 6 of the strong ones all go for Thanos, while the remaining herald or two, plus Fairchild, She-Hulk, and Tigra all work on merely delaying Hulk.

Originally posted by ColossusGrundy
I have plenty of idea how powerful these two are.

Put Mary Marvel, WW, and Supergirl on par with a low end Superman and tell me Thanos would smile at that.

I am by no means saying it would be one sided, but there's too much offense on team 1. I am also considering superspeed, flight, and a few other things besides just strength and toughness, since they'll definitely use them all.

Thanos and the Hulk has reacted to speed in the past, and with his shields, mystics, telepathy, astral form, cosmic fists. No, just NO! Thanos would likely take these backyard hoes out by himself.

The women have like 1/10 chance of winning, and that depends on team Thanos fighting dumb and the women fighting forum style.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The women have like 1/10 chance of winning, and that depends on team Thanos fighting dumb and the women fighting forum style.

Yeah it should have been CISless Super Women vs CIS on Thanos and Hulk. Lulz, I like the way you think.

Originally posted by Q99
Not really. You need more than 2 heralds against Thanos alone, even high heralds like Wondy (and Mary is not that level).

The best strategy would probably be to have 5 or 6 of the strong ones all go for Thanos, while the remaining herald or two, plus Fairchild, She-Hulk, and Tigra all work on merely delaying Hulk.

Delaying the Hulk at that level? Oh boy you really have no idea, or you don't remember the guys that were hitting him, and the zero effect that they had against him. Let's take Arm'Cheddon for example, and focus on his weaker son Trauma. Trauma beat the merged Hulk, and the merged Hulk at the size of a mouse punched the Abomination so hard, that he nearly lost consciousness. The Hulk ignored Arm'Cheddon, stepped on his head (lulz) and turned him to ash from his high impact blows with the augmented Red She Hulk. Give up the props, or remain blind.

Originally posted by Q99
Not really. You need more than 2 heralds against Thanos alone, even high heralds like Wondy (and Mary is not that level).

The best strategy would probably be to have 5 or 6 of the strong ones all go for Thanos, while the remaining herald or two, plus Fairchild, She-Hulk, and Tigra all work on merely delaying Hulk.

U consider ww a high herald

Originally posted by Stoic
Delaying the Hulk at that level? Oh boy you really have no idea, or you don't remember the guys that were hitting him, and the zero effect that they had against him.

Occupy him, not beat him. Iron Man managed that, he spent a fair amount of time on some of the teams he took down, and such.

Not expecting them to do any real damage, but just keeping him away from the other fight.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
U consider ww a high herald

Yes...? There was a thread awhile back discussing the matter and comparing her to other high heralds that came to that conclusion.



I mean, she fights very closely against Superman even when he's not holding back, consistently, even has a win, and Superman's pretty strong even in the High Heralds.

Originally posted by Q99
Occupy him, not beat him. Iron Man managed that, he spent a fair amount of time on some of the teams he took down, and such.

Not expecting them to do any real damage, but just keeping him away from the other fight.



Yes...? There was a thread awhile back discussing the matter and comparing her to other high heralds that came to that conclusion.



I mean, she fights very closely against Superman even when he's not holding back, consistently, even has a win, and Superman's pretty strong even in the High Heralds.

Link? I just don't see it, maybe some good points were made in the thread IMO unless she is in full gear she's mid

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Link? I just don't see it, maybe some good points were made in the thread IMO unless she is in full gear she's mid

I think you'll find that there wasn't a conclusion drawn to that end, if it's the thread I'm thinking about.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I think you'll find that there wasn't a conclusion drawn to that end, if it's the thread I'm thinking about. I remember an argument fangirl made on a different site that was pretty convincing but I wasn't sold on the idea

Originally posted by Sin I AM
U consider ww a high herald

How do u not?

I can understand this being a close match because it is. If u think otherwise u probably have way too high of an opinion of either thanos or WBH

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I can understand this being a close match because it is. If u think otherwise u probably have way too high of an opinion of either thanos or WBH

It's not close, not when none of the women can mount a suitable offensive, or take the best that Thanos or WB Hulk has to offer. No it's just a slaughter. These girls are way out of their league.

Team thanos 9.9/10

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I remember an argument fangirl made on a different site that was pretty convincing but I wasn't sold on the idea

Fangirl liked to exagerrate the **** out of some things, though.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
How do u not?

Because she doesn't have it. Norrin is the penultimate herald right. Do you see standard Diana as a peer? All things being equal would you consider them interchangeable?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Fangirl liked to exagerrate the **** out of some things, though.

True but I admired her panache, she had alotta moxy

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Because she doesn't have it. Norrin is the penultimate herald right. Do you see standard Diana as a peer? All things being equal would you consider them interchangeable?



True but I admired her panache, she had alotta moxy

Fangirl was a dude.

I'm of the opinion that while a single herald cannot mount a suitable offensive, a combined assault from multiple are a threat.

I also know there's not exactly consensus on that around here. If one takes the view that a collection of heralds isn't enough, then yes, Thanos'll win.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Because she doesn't have it. Norrin is the penultimate herald right. Do you see standard Diana as a peer? All things being equal would you consider them interchangeable?

Like you say, Norrin is the penultimate herald. Or, arguably, ultimate, his feats are I think the best of any HH.

Are you arguing that someone can't be high herald without being interchangeable with Surfer? Because I don't think Superman or Thor qualify in that (yes, Thor can fight Surfer well, but he has a specific energy-absorption power that makes him well suited for the task. Similarly WW can shut down spellcasters with her lasso's anti-magic ability, even teambuster-level types. Also, the defense of her bracers means she'd do better than quite a few other High Heralds, like Cyborg Superman, Spartan 3.0, and such).



When someone regularly, consistently delivers near-even fights against one of the stronger high heralds, they're high herald.


It also doesn't hurt that like, half her rogue's gallery is trans or higher (Ares, Circe, Genocide, Queen of Fables. Couple other gods in there too).

Edit.

Wonder Woman IS High Herald, can't see why people are arguing against this. As for the fight, non of them are even scratching WBH, let alone damaging him with their fist or getting past his OMNI blast. Thanos can.handle his own as well. The men team stomps.

Wonder Woman is NOT a high herald at average. She is only a HH if you take her many fights with superman where he is mentally handicapped as proof, in their only fight in their right mind he treated her like a child throwing a tantrum while not even serious and when their positions got reversed oneshotted her while not even attacking her. Take her stalemate with a weakening, mind controlled captain marvel, stalemating Power girl, losing record against etrigan, pimpslapped away by Lobo etc make her a borderline high herald, not a high herald.

I view wondy as the line between mid and high herald

Originally posted by Q99
Occupy him, not beat him. Iron Man managed that, he spent a fair amount of time on some of the teams he took down, and such.
.

You are thinking of Merely WWH. This thread is World breaker hulk ala the one that appeared in HOTM who wrecked the DArk dimension, and turned to ash Armcheddon ( who is himself likely superior to anybody on that team), Wendigo, Bi beast, a hugely amped fing fang foom, and the entire race of mindless ones (whose combined power was too much for Umar in her own dimension to even survive let alone defeat)...all as side effects from the shockwave from a collision he had with red she hulk miles in the air (and came out fine btw). Not to mention no selling the combined attacks of Wendigo, Armcheddon, and Bi beast. He was exponentially stronger ( and more durable )t han even WWH and barring any esoteric attacks the team could muster is physically way beyond the team.

Add in Thanos and it becomes a massacre.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Wonder Woman is NOT a high herald at average. She is only a HH if you take her many fights with superman where he is mentally handicapped as proof, in their only fight in their right mind he treated her like a child throwing a tantrum while not even serious and when their positions got reversed oneshotted her while not even attacking her. Take her stalemate with a weakening, mind controlled captain marvel, stalemating Power girl, losing record against etrigan, pimpslapped away by Lobo etc make her a borderline high herald, not a high herald.

I disagree. Wondy have showings of doing good against people Superman struggled to handle/defeat. Example would be Amazo. Wonder Woman had a long and extended fight against him and actually aided in defeating him whereas Superman got 2 paneled twice by this same villain. Konvikt had enough power to drop Superman with one hit and Wonder Woman was capable of holding her own in a long extended fight.

The same can be said about Superman, he have instances of outshining her as well, more consistently but the time she's done it proves she is within his tier which is the point.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm of the opinion that while a single herald cannot mount a suitable offensive, a combined assault from multiple are a threat.

I also know there's not exactly consensus on that around here. If one takes the view that a collection of heralds isn't enough, then yes, Thanos'll win.



Like you say, Norrin is the penultimate herald. Or, arguably, ultimate, his feats are I think the best of any HH.

Are you arguing that someone can't be high herald without being interchangeable with Surfer? Because I don't think Superman or Thor qualify in that (yes, Thor can fight Surfer well, but he has a specific energy-absorption power that makes him well suited for the task. Similarly WW can shut down spellcasters with her lasso's anti-magic ability, even teambuster-level types. Also, the defense of her bracers means she'd do better than quite a few other High Heralds, like Cyborg Superman, Spartan 3.0, and such).



When someone regularly, consistently delivers near-even fights against one of the stronger high heralds, they're high herald.


It also doesn't hurt that like, half her rogue's gallery is trans or higher (Ares, Circe, Genocide, Queen of Fables. Couple other gods in there too).

I don't consider those fights near even. Who do you think Diana could split even with outta the high herald class? Forum environ, cis off, best of abilities type bout.


Originally posted by carver9
Wonder Woman IS High Herald, can't see why people are arguing against this.

Originally posted by carver9
Street...Black Panther or Batman
Low Meta...Spiderman or Wolverine
Mid Meta...Colossus
High Meta...Star Fire or Ms. Martian...I would say Ms. Marvel
Low Herald...Terrax
Mid Herald...Martian Manhunter or Wonder Woman or Nova Prime
High Herald...Surfer
Low trans...WWH, or OF Thor
Mid trans... Thanos
High trans KT Thor
Skyfather...Odin or Zeus

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Because she doesn't have it. Norrin is the penultimate herald right.

No. That would be Superman. The SS can't beat Thor. Now imagine him fighter a more durable, stronger and faster guy.

Originally posted by Sin I AM


Do you see standard Diana as a peer? All things being equal would you consider them interchangeable?



She is stronger than the SS, more durable, and has better combat speed. Her lasso can stop Thanos or Hulk in their tracks.

LoL Diana not being a true high herald. Really...What in the **** are you guys smoking?

Originally posted by Q99




Like you say, Norrin is the penultimate herald. Or, arguably, ultimate, his feats are I think the best of any HH.

.

Like powering the Maggedon Warhead, lifting infinite weight, surviving an explosion equal to 52 supernovas while weakened, rebuilding a city in seconds, keeping up with the Flash, fastballing mini black holes, fixing a tear in reality with pure strength, slowing down eternity, punches that shatter time and space....oh wait that's Superman.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
I view wondy as the line between mid and high herald

WTF?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I don't consider those fights near even. Who do you think Diana could split even with outta the high herald class? Forum environ, cis off, best of abilities type bout.

I was using those people as the pinnacle of each tier. I wouldn't consider WW Superman/Thor/ or Surfers equal. These 3 imo are the heart of the high Herald tier (current Thor is low meta..lol). Even though I consider WW a high Herald, I would put her at the bottom of the list...the lowest of the high Heralds and I'm basing this off of her durability. If I had to name a person for the upper tier mid Herald class, she would be it. I think she is so high up in the mid Herald tier that I would consider her a low end high Herald...hell, I could see her giving Surfer a fight better than most if ANY high Herald...she is just that good.

I would rank WW in the upper tier mid Herald to low tier high Herald.

What has she done to make her hh? a mind controlled Clark/ holding back Clark don't count

Thanos and Hulk will have trouble hitting Maxima, Wonder Woman, and Super Girl. Sersi can encase the Hulk in a shell of adamantium and the women can battle Thanos alone. He's not taking on 6 heralds at once. The Lasso can be a game changer here. It all depends on how the women fight. Also, who's in the last picture, I can't view it.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
What has she done to make her hh? a mind controlled Clark/ holding back Clark don't count

You have to look at her fts. Hell, she lasted longer against Doomsday than Orion did and everyone here considers him a high Herald. She has taken it to the JLA while blind...defeated Zoom while blind, held her own against Clark on numerous of occasions, Captain Marvel, this doesn't include her fight against Ares, a freaking skyfather. She has defeated Amazo and actually had the advantage over him in a prolong fist fight, the same Amazo that WRECKED the JLA. She put them hands on Konvikt. The list is long. Diana IS a high Herald.

Diana is one of the few high heralds, if not the only one, who can give ANY top tier a run for their money. Lets not underestimate her. uhuh

Originally posted by carver9
You have to look at her fts. Hell, she lasted longer against Doomsday than Orion did and everyone here considers him a high Herald. She has taken it to the JLA while blind...defeated Zoom while blind, held her own against Clark on numerous of occasions, Captain Marvel, this doesn't include her fight against Ares, a freaking skyfather. She has defeated Amazo and actually had the advantage over him in a prolong fist fight, the same Amazo that WRECKED the JLA. She put them hands on Konvikt. The list is long. Diana IS a high Herald.

This is the second time in 2 days I agree with Carver. WTH is going on here?

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
This is the second time in 2 days I agree with Carver. WTH is going on here? Folks are just being stupid as ****.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
No. That would be Superman. The SS can't beat Thor. Now imagine him fighter a more durable, stronger and faster.


She is stronger than the SS, more durable, and has better combat speed. Her lasso can stop Thanos or Hulk in their tracks.

Your insinuating alot here. Prove she is stronger than Norrin, no way in Hell she is more durable when bullets affect her, and ss is not a brawler he's a blaster. It sounds like your saying she can take him in a fight.

Also ss can best Clark for the maj every time...your point?

Originally posted by carver9
I disagree. Wondy have showings of doing good against people Superman struggled to handle/defeat. Example would be Amazo. Wonder Woman had a long and extended fight against him and actually aided in defeating him whereas Superman got 2 paneled twice by this same villain. Konvikt had enough power to drop Superman with one hit and Wonder Woman was capable of holding her own in a long extended fight.

The same can be said about Superman, he have instances of outshining her as well, more consistently but the time she's done it proves she is within his tier which is the point.
Amazo exploited superman's weakness which diana doesn't have. Its like me saying that namor or Iron man are superior to her or classic Thor because they are bulletproof while they are not. Konvickt stunned superman with a free shot to the face when superman didn't had any guess how strong he was, diana just holded the line and later superman rescued her and was dominating konvickt in straight h2h. If only we start listing the times wonder woman has been ktfo by an attack which superman has tanked! Suffice to say that she was nearly killed by a *blocked* martian vision attack and kyle rayner oneshotted her.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
This is the second time in 2 days I agree with Carver. WTH is going on here?

Maybe that's a sign of Carver being right more or you being right less....

Consider this thought wisely.... ;-)

Originally posted by abhilegend
Amazo exploited superman's weakness which diana doesn't have. Its like me saying that namor or Iron man are superior to her or classic Thor because they are bulletproof while they are not. Konvickt stunned superman with a free shot to the face when superman didn't had any guess how strong he was, diana just holded the line and later superman rescued her and was dominating konvickt in straight h2h. If only we start listing the times wonder woman has been ktfo by an attack which superman has tanked! Suffice to say that she was nearly killed by a *blocked* martian vision attack and kyle rayner oneshotted her.

You're talking as if Superman was the bottom of the high herald class.

I see folks dodging my question here

Gah back on this Wonder Woman bs

I'd consider her HH with gear.

Problem is, where do you draw the line at her gear? Lasso, bracelets, tiara, yes that's standard, so do we only consider her a HH when she has her sword and Atlas gauntlets?

Because that's a verry fine line to cross.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Gah back on this Wonder Woman bs http://www.twistappel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/haters-gonna-hate.gif

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'd consider her HH with gear.

Problem is, where do you draw the line at her gear? Lasso, bracelets, tiara, yes that's standard, so do we only consider her a HH when she has her sword and Atlas gauntlets?

Because that's a verry fine line to cross.

This....with all gear, but standard phuck no

Yah. She lacks the physical stats to hang with the big boys...but with all her BS gear she can give them all a run for their money if not flat out rape them.

So its just the sword and the gauntlets, then? Or am I missing something else?

The bracelets and the lasso are kind of OP if you ask me, but the sword makes her beast offensive wise.

With all of her gear, I would put her at trans level and give her the majority against any Herald.

Tiara gauntlets and lasso is standard, sword and Shield is not

Originally posted by abhilegend
Amazo exploited superman's weakness which diana doesn't have. Its like me saying that namor or Iron man are superior to her or classic Thor because they are bulletproof while they are not. Konvickt stunned superman with a free shot to the face when superman didn't had any guess how strong he was, diana just holded the line and later superman rescued her and was dominating konvickt in straight h2h. If only we start listing the times wonder woman has been ktfo by an attack which superman has tanked! Suffice to say that she was nearly killed by a *blocked* martian vision attack and kyle rayner oneshotted her.


You pointing out her low fts isn't helping this. That's like me saying, Doctor light one shotted Superman with a casual blast hut Diana withstanding attacks from Ares, this makes her more powerful than Superman. Get out of here with that. Diana has proven time and time again that she is in the High Herald tier.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Tiara gauntlets and lasso is standard, sword and Shield is not

I agree and with standard gear, I would say she is a high Herald...adding everything else is overkill.

If shes high herald shes at the bottom of the pack

Originally posted by carver9
I disagree. Wondy have showings of doing good against people Superman struggled to handle/defeat. Example would be Amazo. Wonder Woman had a long and extended fight against him and actually aided in defeating him whereas Superman got 2 paneled twice by this same villain. Konvikt had enough power to drop Superman with one hit and Wonder Woman was capable of holding her own in a long extended fight.

The same can be said about Superman, he have instances of outshining her as well, more consistently but the time she's done it proves she is within his tier which is the point.

i swear, it's like you troll so hard that you want to get banned.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i swear, it's like you troll so hard that you want to get banned.

How am I trollling? By saying WW is a high Herald? I didn't down anyone in any of my post.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Your insinuating alot here. Prove she is stronger than Norrin, no way in Hell she is more durable when bullets affect her, and ss is not a brawler he's a blaster. It sounds like your saying she can take him in a fight.

Also ss can best Clark for the maj every time...your point?

No they don't.

Could? Sure. Would? Not a chance.

Originally posted by carver9
How am I trollling? By saying WW is a high Herald? I didn't down anyone in any of my post.

Except when you lied about Superman.

Originally posted by iceman24567
If shes high herald shes at the bottom of the pack


I agree, ALL THE WAY AT THE BOTTOM.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i swear, it's like you troll so hard that you want to get banned. You don't have the stones fish face 313

Originally posted by -Pr-
No they don't.

Could? Sure. Would? Not a chance.



Except when you lied about Superman.

What did I lie about though? Amazo did take Superman out twice whereas Diana held her own. In the same sentence that you pointed out, I admitted that Superman shines more than she does so I don't understand what the problem is.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree and with standard gear, I would say she is a high Herald...adding everything else is overkill.

Carver that's not what I was saying..
U can't agree with something then say the exact opposite

Originally posted by carver9
With all of her gear, I would put her at trans level and give her the majority against any Herald.

Quoted

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Carver that's not what I was saying..
U can't agree with something then say the exact opposite



Quoted Can you not quote carver so much?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Carver that's not what I was saying..
U can't agree with something then say the exact opposite



Quoted

I guess you are reading that wrong. With ALL of her gear, it puts her above the Herald tier. With her standard gear, imo, it puts her in the high Herald tier. It's not even her gear that is making me put her in that tier anyways...that's just a small fraction of what makes me think of her as a high Herald.

Originally posted by -Pr-
No they don't.

Could? Sure. Would? Not a chance.



Except when you lied about Superman.

U lost me pr

Originally posted by iceman24567
Can you not quote carver so much?


What's the problem Iceman?

I think any HH would be hard pressed to take out Wondy + sword/bracers/shield/shoes/lasso/armor. Her being trans while fully geared isn't a stretch, IMO.

Originally posted by carver9
What's the problem Iceman? Your face

Dude her gear is her only saving grace..... Please elaborate

Originally posted by carver9
What did I lie about though? Amazo did take Superman out twice whereas Diana held her own. In the same sentence that you pointed out, I admitted that Superman shines more than she does so I don't understand what the problem is.

If you're going to play the stupid card, I'm only going to come down harder on you for it.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
U lost me pr

Bullets don't affect Wonder Woman.

Surfer wouldn't beat Superman 10/10.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Your face

Let me PM you another picture of my face, I think you forgot how it looks. One sec.

Originally posted by carver9
Let me PM you another picture of my face, I think you forgot how it looks. One sec.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/iceman2456/stfu.gif

Originally posted by Harbinger
I think any HH would be hard pressed to take out Wondy + sword/bracers/shield/shoes/lasso/armor. Her being trans while fully geared isn't a stretch, IMO.



Not many heralds would be able to take even a tiara throw unscathed, especially if Diana is trying to attack tendons and ligaments. Same goes with the sword. With Diana actively using her weaponry, even heralds significantly more powerful than her are going to get messed up.

If she for some reason gets the Gauntlet of Atlas, she's definitely bumped up to the trans tier. Strength and stamina multiplied by x10? Phuck that.

Originally posted by -Pr-
If you're going to play the stupid card, I'm only going to come down harder on you for it.



Bullets don't affect Wonder Woman.

Surfer wouldn't beat Superman 10/10.

Sigh*...in all of my posts, I said Superman is superior to her. I still don't see what the problem is.

:confused

I think you just like fussing with me "unless" you don't think Superman is superior to Diana which is what I've said at least 3 to 4 times in this thread.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Dude her gear is her only saving grace..... Please elaborate

And Thor doesn't need his hammer to be a herald level character?

Originally posted by carver9
Sigh*...in all of my posts, I said Superman is superior to her. I still don't see what the problem is.

:confused

I think you just like fussing with me "unless" you don't think Superman is superior to Diana which is what I've said at least 3 to 4 times in this thread.

-sigh-

Fine.

Leaving out context in the Amazo fight. Superman didn't get a chance to go h2h, he was red-sun blasted before he could fight.

Konvikt, Wonder Woman didn't do any better than Superman. Superman allowed himself to get hit, and once he got up did just as well if not better than Diana.

Now, because I had to type that, you're ****ed.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
And Thor doesn't need his hammer to be a herald level character?

Not really, no.

He sure as hell wouldn't be in the meta-human class.

Originally posted by Harbinger
I think any HH would be hard pressed to take out Wondy + sword/bracers/shield/shoes/lasso/armor. Her being trans while fully geared isn't a stretch, IMO.

Originally posted by -Pr-
-sigh-

Fine.

Leaving out context in the Amazo fight. Superman didn't get a chance to go h2h, he was red-sun blasted before he could fight.

Konvikt, Wonder Woman didn't do any better than Superman. Superman allowed himself to get hit, and once he got up did just as well if not better than Diana.

Now, because I had to type that, you're ****ed.

Lol...Pr, I never said Amazo physically crushed Superman. Both times he was blasted by Red sun light but Amazo won which is my point.

Konvikt, you can look at that fight in a lot of ways but at the end of the day, both Superman and Diana did well against him. I still don't see the problem with my post but whatever.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
And Thor doesn't need his hammer to be a herald level character?

He sure as shit won't be beating superman without it

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...Pr, I never said Amazo physically crushed Superman. Both times he was blasted by Red sun light but Amazo won which is my point.

Konvikt, you can look at that fight in a lot of ways but at the end of the day, both Superman and Diana did well against him. I still don't see the problem with my post but whatever.

Which means absolutely nothing, but as usual you leave out context to make character A look better than character B.

The problem is that, even though Superman has low feats, you pick instances that aren't, and try to dress them up by leaving out context and using specific words to try to make people think certain things.

Me is starting to think PR has a vendetta against Carv.

"starting to"?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Which means absolutely nothing, but as usual you leave out context to make character A look better than character B.

The problem is that, even though Superman has low feats, you pick instances that aren't, and try to dress them up by leaving out context and using specific words to try to make people think certain things.

I understood exactly what you meant but I wasn't focusing on context, I was focusing on the fact that Wonder Woman does good against beings that drops high Heralds "sometimes" and that goes for Superman as well..he does good on a CONSISTENT bases against characters that drops high Heralds. With that said, both deserve to be treated as what? A high Herald "even though I put Supes above her due to his CONSISTENT showings that she doesn't have.

I'm not picking low fts, I'm picking fts where she is in a situation where other high Heralds are around. That's why I also brought up the Orion and Doomsday fight. Orion got two pieced by Doomsday while Wondy held her own in a prolong fight.

Originally posted by Cogito
"starting to"? I'm being generous lol.

Originally posted by carver9
You pointing out her low fts isn't helping this. That's like me saying, Doctor light one shotted Superman with a casual blast hut Diana withstanding attacks from Ares, this makes her more powerful than Superman. Get out of here with that. Diana has proven time and time again that she is in the High Herald tier.
Doctor Light never oneshotted superman, he just shot him out of the sky and the rest of injustice gang beat up on him with lex's kryptonite armor weakening him. Does a high herald has a record of 0-3 against someone like Etrigan? Etrigan has straight overpowered her once in h2h and it was jason blood who saved her. All of my examples have relevance as superman have tanked both MV and kyle rayner's all out attacks. In the same arc cheetah and killer frost beat diana.

Originally posted by carver9
I wasn't focusing on context

The problem with 99% of your posts.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Me is starting to think PR has a vendetta against Carv.

vendetta? No. I just wish he'd cut this shit out.

Originally posted by -Pr-
If you're going to play the stupid card, I'm only going to come down harder on you for it.



Bullets don't affect Wonder Woman.

Surfer wouldn't beat Superman 10/10.

I never said he'd stomp I said maj, and yea they have

Originally posted by abhilegend
Does a high herald has a record of 0-3 against someone like Etrigan? Etrigan has straight overpowered her once in h2h and it was jason blood who saved her. Meh, that's not a bad thing at all.

Although she showed she was vastly stronger than him in Blood of the Demon... which, was absolute crap, but the series was good. Same series had Batman beating the shit out of him too IIRC, so it's not really the best example... but it happened. As did a love crazed Etrigan almost raping WW happen, so there's that as well.

Team Thanos wins. Hulk dies somehow.

Wait...Etrigan tried to rape WW?

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Wait...Etrigan tried to rape WW?

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/Demonv2-17-11.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/Demonv2-17-12.jpg

Wonder Woman is in the same boat as Beta ray Bill, Nova Prime and Black Bolt shes not a legit high herald

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I never said he'd stomp I said maj, and yea they have

i thought you said "can take 10/10".

have back in the day, yes. in the last few years before the reboot, they didn't. don't know about post-reboot though.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i thought you said "can take 10/10".

have back in the day, yes. in the last few years before the reboot, they didn't. don't know about post-reboot though.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/Demonv2-17-11.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/Demonv2-17-12.jpg

Would love to see what WW did to him once he turned back humam. Wonder Wedgie?

wiped her tampon in his face IIRC

Originally posted by Sin I AM


What.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank


Not many heralds would be able to take even a tiara throw unscathed, especially if Diana is trying to attack tendons and ligaments. Same goes with the sword. With Diana actively using her weaponry, even heralds significantly more powerful than her are going to get messed up.

If she for some reason gets the Gauntlet of Atlas, she's definitely bumped up to the trans tier. Strength and stamina multiplied by x10? Phuck that.

I agree.

I think the issue some people have with Diana being a high herald is her raw stats, particularly her durability. If she is high herald, she is at the bottom of the list (which isn't a bad thing).

Her standard gear does make up for her lower stats and is no less apart of her power set than a GL's ring. Her lasso and tiara are serious weapons that could put down any high herald. The lasso and bracers also up her durability significantly and she already has some innate resistances to magic and mind control. Unlike HH's like Superman, she has to actively work for her spot in that group.

I don't see her taking a majority against most of the high heralds but she is unquestionably capable of taking down most if not all of them.

And if you fully gear her, she is definitely above high herald level.

The Women gets destroyed

Yes, well, you might not consider them near-even, but may I remind you that Wonder Woman won in some of them? So your opinion might be somewhat counter-factual.


Lesse, she's beaten Zolomon Zoom, High Herald. Wally Flash, ditto (she tends to roll speedsters in general). Beat Sinetrso, he's High Herald. Circe's trans and Diana gets regular wins. Genocide's trans and they split. Queen of Fables is at least trans and again regular wins.



I will note that Clark was specifically not holding back in Sacrifice, and he was using his powers tactically and in forum-style (Start the fight with a full-speed charge to throw her into the sun while blasting heatvision. That's one of the most CIS-less fights he's ever had, topped possibly only by the Elite fight, and a bit better than even OWAW). The only thing Max did was make her appear to be a foe to destroy in his mind, but that didn't even prevent Superman from doing smart stuff like dodging the lasso. And after they both inflicted major damage on each other she cut his throat in the end.

Also, Circe once *amped* his strength and filled him with rage and she fought him that time too, ending with a lassoing (despite her lasso being stolen at the start of the fight). So yea, he wasn't fighting as normal Superman that time... but tell me that form isn't High Herald and I'll laugh.


And, y'know, those other HHs she's fought. Did I mention she's beaten Sinestro? Because she has.

One-shotting Supergirl with a punch is also something I think only a High Herald can do (in Supergirl's own series, no less).




I'll just note being a blaster isn't particularly good against Wonder Woman- her bracers can no-sell trans level energy blasts. In fact, they've never been breached by anything ever.

When Surfer wins, it'll be because he uses his more exotic ability uses. If he fights like a strait forward zapper like he does sometimes, there's trouble.


Originally posted by Sin I AM
Dude her gear is her only saving grace..... Please elaborate

While her gear is uber, let's not forget she has higher reflexes/hand to hand speed than Superman and is probably the most skilled herald in HtH period.

Got some healing factor in her too, flight, very high anti-impact durability (after Sacrifice, she fought more herald-level foes an hour or two later), some moon/planet towing...

I mean, her normal gear is probably what puts her into High Herald. It's the hax of the gear, the lasso's abilities, the Bracer's unbreakable defense, and the tiara's ability to cut even high heralds and gods easily, that puts her over the top, but sans gear she is still rather powerful.

Non gear, mid-herald. Normal gear, high herald. Full gear (armor, sword, gauntlet), trans.


Originally posted by iceman24567
Wonder Woman is in the same boat as Beta ray Bill, Nova Prime and Black Bolt shes not a legit high herald

If I remember right, in previous threads will all three of those it was concluded Diana would win. Definitely Nova and BB.

And those're some of the strongest mid-heralds.

Diana was at the mercy of an inexpierenced sinestro clone when hercules saved her, she never oneshotted supergirl, only caught zoom with a surprise which is PIS, Circe didn't amp superman just gave "his rage physical form" as bones and she herself said that superman could've killed her with two more *blocked* punches, superman punched her only once in sacrifice and ktfo her, superman is faster than her altogether whether mcduffie liked it or not, a *blocked* martian vision attack nearly killed her etc. Oh and wonder woman fangirls are the worst liers on battleboards.

Being less powerful than Superman hardly means she's not a high herald.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Being less powerful than Superman hardly means she's not a high herald. What about far less powerful?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
What about far less powerful?

Still doesn't mean she's not a high herald.

Diana's mid-herald normally.

Glad I solved that.

She punched Supergirl and she went down.



She 'caught him by surprise' by, strait on and in his sight, kicking a bunch of rocks at him at high speed and then lassoing him while he was dodging?

That's not PIS, that's tactics.



She gave his rage physical form and he grew physically more muscular and got hard bones, and that's not a physical amp?



WW was out for such a short time that he couldn't actually take advantage of it, and at one point she kicked him and left him down for long enough that she was able to just stand there for a bit and gather herself.

He did get other attacks on her like heat-vision to the face, frost breath, grabbing, etc..

And WW won that fight. For that brief KO he was not actually fast enough to do anything with it, whereas Wonder Woman had him actually helpless and bleeding from the neck at the end.



Wonder Woman has higher reflex feats to begin with (the Zoom thing, the fight with Wally), and you noted herself she hit Superman more when they fought than vice-versa. McDuffie's thing there is not only canon, but consistent with feats.



Don't know that one but she's taken out martians in her time too.



Nah, that'd be the downplayers.


"Oh, Wonder Woman regularly fights on even terms with Superman in a variety of circumstances and does quite well, with zero actual losses and at least one win. Plus she has high-powered villains, plus she's fought a good number of other herald level enemies. No-way can she be a high herald."

She's got the feats for it, she's got the abilities, she's got the record, just get over your hangups.

Originally posted by Q99
She gave his rage physical form and he grew physically more muscular and got hard bones, and that's not a physical amp? Seems more like he got horny

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Seems more like he got horny

*Rimshot*

Originally posted by Q99
I will note that Clark was specifically not holding back in Sacrifice, and he was using his powers tactically and in forum-style (Start the fight with a full-speed charge to throw her into the sun while blasting heatvision. That's one of the most CIS-less fights he's ever had, topped possibly only by the Elite fight, and a bit better than even OWAW). The only thing Max did was make her appear to be a foe to destroy in his mind, but that didn't even prevent Superman from doing smart stuff like dodging the lasso. And after they both inflicted major damage on each other she cut his throat in the end.

No.

Sacrifice cannot be used as an indicator of forum/full capacity Superman, as he was mentally compromised, something both the comic and the writer stated clearly.

That, and the completely contradictory way in which he fought should be enough evidence of it being unusable.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Diana's mid-herald normally.

Glad I solved that.

Apparently if you say that, you're sexist.

I'm a pretty adamant Diana supporter - hell, I repped her in a tournament before - but she is what she is, and that's an extremely competent mid-herald with the tools to be able to hang with almost anyone for an extended period of time.

On the note of Sacrifice, it's an impressive fight and feat for her. But, to be fair, she battled a crazed and bloodlusted Superman, who while is definitely more dangerous than a normal Superman, isn't the same as fighting a bloodlusted Superman who knows he's fighting Diana (and not Doomsday).

.

Originally posted by iceman24567
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/iceman2456/stfu.gif

I freakin love the UK version of Being Human.

Originally posted by -Pr-
No.

Sacrifice cannot be used as an indicator of forum/full capacity Superman, as he was mentally compromised, something both the comic and the writer stated clearly.

That, and the completely contradictory way in which he fought should be enough evidence of it being unusable.

Contradictory? How so? He fought aggressively throughout, and as I noted, using his powers together better than normal. The only time he didn't was when he was looking for her or was injured, and she took advantage of that.

He may have used somewhat different tactics normally... but different tactics don't reduce his massive power.



One thing I'll note, for someone who was supposedly thinking they were fighting Doomsday, he seemed awfully on-guard about lassos.


Also to the point- does anyone here think that version of him was not High Herald?

"He fights slightly differently while wielding Superman's no-hold-back strength, therefore he drops a whole rung"?


Yes he fought differently, but he also did not fight stupidly (unlike the Circe-fied one. Who's also HH in power), using his powers in combination, and 'fighting a bit differently' does not mean 'doesn't count at all,' it just means he counts as a somewhat different HH high-power fighter.

Originally posted by Q99
Contradictory? How so? He fought aggressively throughout, and as I noted, using his powers together better than normal. The only time he didn't was when he was looking for her or was injured, and she took advantage of that.

He may have used somewhat different tactics normally... but different tactics don't reduce his massive power.



One thing I'll note, for someone who was supposedly thinking they were fighting Doomsday, he seemed awfully on-guard about lassos.


Also to the point- does anyone here think that version of him was not High Herald?

"He fights slightly differently while wielding Superman's no-hold-back strength, therefore he drops a whole rung"?


Yes he fought differently, but he also did not fight stupidly (unlike the Circe-fied one. Who's also HH in power), using his powers in combination, and 'fighting a bit differently' does not mean 'doesn't count at all,' it just means he counts as a somewhat different HH high-power fighter.

Because in the examples you even stated (OWAW/Elite) Superman is shown to be at his most effective when he's completely in control, not some raging monster.

They weren't his most effective tactics, and Rucka himself stated that Superman was "out of his mind with grief".

That, along with Lord in his head, makes it invalid as evidence of Superman at his best.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Because in the examples you even stated (OWAW/Elite) Superman is shown to be at his most effective when he's completely in control, not some raging monster.

Except he wasn't fighting just as a raging monster, he was still thinking of his next moves... and even used more power-combinations than he did during OWAW (most of what he did against the probes was merely not-holding-back-strength + using heatvision to seal wounds. He opened up on WW with not-holding-back strength, rapid-fire heat vision, aimed to throw her into the sun, and high-power heat vision once grappled to throw in another potential game-winner while on the way to the sun).


That he was overcome with grief doesn't mean we get to ignore what he did and how he was fighting.

His only real mistake was being overly aggressive which gave Diana openings- but someone who's just as strong as Superman bit a bit overly aggressive is not mid-herald, and is actually still one of the higher showings of Superman in terms of power-usage.




It just means that it was an encounter with Superman at his full power and with good usage of powers but his not-quite-best tactically.

Which... is still really, really impressive to beat, even if barely.



One thing off doesn't mean you toss an encounter out entirely, it just means you take it for what it was, and it was still a fight with someone who was not only acting as a High Herald but well into the high heralds.

Originally posted by Q99
Except he wasn't fighting just as a raging monster, he was still thinking of his next moves... and even used more power-combinations than he did during OWAW (most of what he did against the probes was merely not-holding-back-strength + using heatvision to seal wounds. He opened up on WW with not-holding-back strength, rapid-fire heat vision, aimed to throw her into the sun, and high-power heat vision once grappled to throw in another potential game-winner while on the way to the sun).


That he was overcome with grief doesn't mean we get to ignore what he did and how he was fighting.

His only real mistake was being overly aggressive which gave Diana openings- but someone who's just as strong as Superman bit a bit overly aggressive is not mid-herald, and is actually still one of the higher showings of Superman in terms of power-usage.




It just means that it was an encounter with Superman at his full power and with good usage of powers but his not-quite-best tactically.

Which... is still really, really impressive to beat, even if barely.



One thing off doesn't mean you toss an encounter out entirely, it just means you take it for what it was, and it was still a fight with someone who was not only acting as a High Herald but well into the high heralds.

He was mentally compromised. It's been in the forum rules that we don't use a character that is mentally compromised as being an accurate representation of how well they could do in a fight.

People like to claim that this Superman was some uber version of the character, when it wasn't.

and no, incidentally I don't agree with your interpretation of the comic.

I do think that "Sacrifice Supes" was more dangerous than normal Superman and was definitely high herald in status and power.

I don't, however, think that was Superman at his best.

I think that's a pretty fair stance.

Add Zatanna and it's a stomp for the women ("lkuH trever ot rennaB"

Originally posted by ColossusGrundy
Add Zatanna and it's a stomp for the women ("lkuH trever ot rennaB"

Is Zatanna actually in this thread?

No lol, Colossus just has a thing for Z, and Plastic Man.

Originally posted by -Pr-
He was mentally compromised. It's been in the forum rules that we don't use a character that is mentally compromised as being an accurate representation of how well they could do in a fight.

An accurate representation of how they'd do regularly? No.

Means that it should be completely ignored? Also no, that's just silly. Wonder Woman fought someone there with the full muscle of non-holding-back Superman who used the powers in a tactical, but overly-aggressive manner, which payed off at first but was more exploitable than he'd normally be.

(And she has fought a non-compromised Superman- they hit back and forth for awhile, neither taking any real damage, then Superman pointed out a distraction and slipped past).



No, but it was one who fought well, simply in terms of observed move set.


A lot better than most mind-controlled types, since the mental compromise in question was mostly one of swapping targets and not someone else in the driver's seat. Like JakeTheBank said, Superman's best? No. High-Herald and more dangerous than his normal fights? Yes.



Yea, you've said that a few times. You've also never said why, so, y'know, that appears to be entirely an opinion thing. It doesn't do any good in debates to just grumble about something without a reason.

Originally posted by Q99
An accurate representation of how they'd do regularly? No.

Means that it should be completely ignored? Also no, that's just silly. Wonder Woman fought someone there with the full muscle of non-holding-back Superman who used the powers in a tactical, but overly-aggressive manner, which payed off at first but was more exploitable than he'd normally be.

(And she has fought a non-compromised Superman- they hit back and forth for awhile, neither taking any real damage, then Superman pointed out a distraction and slipped past).



No, but it was one who fought well, simply in terms of observed move set.


A lot better than most mind-controlled types, since the mental compromise in question was mostly one of swapping targets and not someone else in the driver's seat. Like JakeTheBank said, Superman's best? No. High-Herald and more dangerous than his normal fights? Yes.



Yea, you've said that a few times. You've also never said why, so, y'know, that appears to be entirely an opinion thing. It doesn't do any good in debates to just grumble about something without a reason.

I've actually said so, several times. At length.

Originally posted by Q99
She punched Supergirl and she went down. After several punches from superman and a hv blast and she just knocked kara down. Do you even know what a oneshot means?



Yeah a blind diana lassoing zoom is straight PIS. In the second round diana was a statue to zoloman who blitzed the shit outta her.

Batman kicked the air out of her lungs and stunned her with a nerve strike, not PIS according to you, right?



His pain was expressd as bony spurs. You need more than "made him bulkier" to prove your theory when circe never mentioned an amp. I don't have to prove a negative.



Not by herself. She awoke by the heat of re-entry. At most she stunned him for a moment by a soccer kick just after several nerve strikes on neck, joints and other weak points. How similar!

HV suddenly lost all of its kinetic properties and just became laser vision, freeze breath was useless and he could've snapped her neck like he did to her arm, but as expected rucka saved her.

In your wet dreams perhaps, in reality no. She was helped by external elements in her recovery, that seals her loss. He was far from helpless, he was just in shock as his mind was freed at the same moment and he went in shock like in every case of mental override. Superman has fought without a heart and a kryptonite sword impaled through his heart. Not to mention he wasn't even knocked down.



Nope, zoom fight is PIS and at the time she fought that flash clone, flash was just supersonic. Professor zoom who wrecked entire flash family said superman was his near equal. Due to hallucinations, not due to being slower. Its just a butthurt writer's whining who got his ass kicked at DCMB. You can compare her feats anytime you want.



Martian manhunter 6. She has done it by holding her breath, she has been oneshotted thrice by martians.



She beat sinestro, huh?


Final crisis begs to differ. She has been oneshotted by mid heralds at least 6 times, name one high herald with such a record. She also has losing record against mid heralds like etrigan, martians and struggles to win against a no name GL. Yep she is a mid herald.

Nope. Yeah. She has been owned by BATMAN'S TAZERS. Just after you WW fangirls stop lying so much.

Originally posted by Stoic
Is Zatanna actually in this thread?

No, just wishful thinking

Originally posted by -Pr-
I've actually said so, several times. At length.


You have at length talked about how you don't feel it counts.

That's not actually the same as providing reasons, which I note you aren't doing now either. You seem to write off way more than the influence actually justifies, and your reasoning behind it remains really vague.


Like Jake and so on had said, yes he didn't fight quite as normal, but he was still clearly fighting at high-levels. He uses tactics, he used powers well, etc.. He fought a lot like the forum would have him fight in bloodlust mode!

Bottom line it for me, please. One sentence, why does all that not count, when we see Superman visually fighting in a highly impressive way?




Really?

Lemme check...

Alright, I'll admit I was wrong on this one, I remembered it wrong.

She was still the one who did the blow that transitioned her from 'active, fighting combatant' to 'out of the fight'




So she did something to make him slow down, thus allowing it to work.




"Someone gains more muscles, but that doesn't mean they have more muscles!" is a statement that needs support, actually.




Quite, meaning it wasn't hard at all to wake her up.



Uh, 'nerve strikes?'. She didn't use nerve strikes, she slammed his ears with her metal bracers.

And yea, it is similar. They both got hit by the others, and stunned for a bit.


Btw, you do know that WW got upgrades after that fight, right? Her bracers gained a Zeus's lightning-zapper setting?

Superman would've never been able to hold on to her so long in the attempted sun throw to begin with with those.





"Superman was there with his throat cut and couldn't defend himself without bleeding out of the neck, but it doesn't count as a loss! Really!"


C'mon.





Flash clone was Barry, iirc. I'm talking about when she fought Starro-controlled Wally.



I can recall a no-name GL beating on her and her just standing there taking it because she wanted a diplomatic solution. Her wounds cleared within like 15 seconds of the 'fight's' end.

So non-major GLs are at a level where she can just let them wail on her and it's just a temporary inconvenience.



Yes. Whether talking strength and speed feats, or, y'know, fighting against heralds and trans types, she's got plenty of wins and good battles. Power Girl's an impressive Mid-Herald, and WW beat her. Matched up in power against Captain Marvel. Beats Achilles who beats the entire Outsiders including Eradicator and Geo-Force. Has fought Superman in Sacrifice, For Tomorrow, when Circe-ified, League of One, did well in all of them. Yadda yadda.


She's had some lower-powered runs, but once we're talking to the era of Jimenez, Rucka and beyond and such, she's really quite impressive (there were explicit upgrades involved, btw).

You guys do realize that Thanos could place them all in force blocks, and release them 2 at a time for a major ass whipping right? Let's not make this out to be some sort of a competitive match up, because it won't be.

Originally posted by Q99
You have at length talked about how you don't feel it counts.

That's not actually the same as providing reasons, which I note you aren't doing now either. You seem to write off way more than the influence actually justifies, and your reasoning behind it remains really vague.


Like Jake and so on had said, yes he didn't fight quite as normal, but he was still clearly fighting at high-levels. He uses tactics, he used powers well, etc.. He fought a lot like the forum would have him fight in bloodlust mode!

Bottom line it for me, please. One sentence, why does all that not count, when we see Superman visually fighting in a highly impressive way?

I have provided reasons, both in this forum and the Superman one. I have noticed, though, how willing you are to exaggerate Diana's performance and Superman's level to try to turn this in to some sort of trans-busting feat for her.

To summarise, though, just because you asked so nicely ermm

I believe Superman did more damage during the fight, and see no indication that she had anything resembling a win.

I don't mind Jake's appraisal. Superman was more vicious, and more dangerous than a holding-back Superman.

Trying to equate it to a non-CIS Superman like in OWAW or the Elite, though? No, i just don't see it.

Originally posted by Q99
Really?

Lemme check...

Alright, I'll admit I was wrong on this one, I remembered it wrong. Just like diana beat sinestro huh?

Means nothing as kara wasn't even damaged.




That's why its PIS. Jesse quick koed zoom while he was speeding, that's leagues better than what diana did.




Muscles=/=amp. You can't be that stupid.




You can spin it anyway you want, she was ktfo and needed extra help to wake up. A clean loss.



Read the fight again. She attacked his weak points in neck, joints and other points to bring him down. Batman earlier in her book stunned her by the same attack.

Except superman didn't need attacking weak points to ktfo her. He was just stunned for a bit largely due to that sneak attack and nerve strikes.


Yeah I know and its nothing more than a minor change in her powers. Iron man gets upgrades like that every week.

He obviously can. He broke her arm with just applying pressure. All he needed was to snap his arm to break her neck.





Superman has healed from worse in less moments. A loss means you are incapacitated for a considerable time and unable to get up by your own like what happened to WW earlier.


Like I said stop lying so much.





Who as usual with starro controlled characters was way less powerful than normal. Superman has catched an out of control wally by chasing.



That's not I was talking about. She needed tricks to beat that gl earlier and said that she couldn't beat him directly.

After his willpower was compromised. High heralds don't need tricks to beat cannon fodder gls.



Nope. She stalemated a mind controlled PG who was AT LEAST as strong as her. Ares was draining cap and he was mind controlled. Geo stalemated achilees and that was not the original eradicator.http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/nottheoriginalerads.jpg And the only fights that are relevant are LOO where she admitted that she can't win against him.


She is a mid herald. Accept it and move on.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I have provided reasons, both in this forum and the Superman one. I have noticed, though, how willing you are to exaggerate Diana's performance and Superman's level to try to turn this in to some sort of trans-busting feat for her.

No, one where she simply fought a strong High-Herald very well.


See, this is part of the problem- there's a fallacy of an excluded middle there. If someone argues she fought well on a high-herald level, then you say they're pushing for trans (which no-one is). If someone doesn't, then mid-herald. You can see where that's kinda wonky.






*Cough* Cut, throat. That happened, and generally cutting someone's throat resembles a win.

And while he certainly did a lot of damage, she did a pretty good amount as well. The smashed ears, the kick to the side that both kept him down for awhile and he was holding even when he did get up, and the final cut.


That's the thing- you view him as having dealt more damage. Ok, fine. Not a problem, I'll just go with that without any argument. How is it still not a High Herald feat on her part is the part that's rather more iffy, considering she still dealt quite a lot of power.

It seems to me like the idea of 'she is simply slightly lower in HH than he is' is being left out entirely, which is really odd considering he's one of the best HHs there is.


And she has had an upgrade since then, so even if you though she was not-quite there before... well, new strong power in the arsenal to push her over the top.






I didn't say it was at the same level of the Elite- IMO the best showing he had tactics-wise. Better than Sacrifice, OWAW, or anything else. That's the crown, period, no question. Elite-style Superman would've won.

However, he did use his powers in combination in a very similar way as he did in OWAW. He wouldn't be quite as incautious then, but he was doing the same stuff that get people raving about how great he was during that story. So, more-or-less the same as there, minus some caution.


And more to the point, better than any story I can think of aside from those.


That it wasn't the best use of his powers ever, but still in the top three, is hardly a mark against WW or an argument for mid-herald.



The arguments of "It's not a trans busting feat," and "It's not as good as the Elite fight," do not add up to "Not high-herald," or "not still darn impressive." That's basically my problem here- you're arguing against her being higher than I'm arguing, and using that as justification for putting her lower than you're arguing.

It seems to me like WW is just being held to a higher standard than other HHs.

Originally posted by Q99
No, one where she simply fought a strong High-Herald very well.


See, this is part of the problem- there's a fallacy of an excluded middle there. If someone argues she fought well on a high-herald level, then you say they're pushing for trans (which no-one is). If someone doesn't, then mid-herald. You can see where that's kinda wonky.






*Cough* Cut, throat. That happened, and generally cutting someone's throat resembles a win.

And while he certainly did a lot of damage, she did a pretty good amount as well. The smashed ears, the kick to the side that both kept him down for awhile and he was holding even when he did get up, and the final cut.


That's the thing- you view him as having dealt more damage. Ok, fine. Not a problem, I'll just go with that without any argument. How is it still not a High Herald feat on her part is the part that's rather more iffy, considering she still dealt quite a lot of power.

It seems to me like the idea of 'she is simply slightly lower in HH than he is' is being left out entirely, which is really odd considering he's one of the best HHs there is.


And she has had an upgrade since then, so even if you though she was not-quite there before... well, new strong power in the arsenal to push her over the top.






I didn't say it was at the same level of the Elite- IMO the best showing he had tactics-wise. Better than Sacrifice, OWAW, or anything else. That's the crown, period, no question. Elite-style Superman would've won.

However, he did use his powers in combination in a very similar way as he did in OWAW. He wouldn't be quite as incautious then, but he was doing the same stuff that get people raving about how great he was during that story. So, more-or-less the same as there, minus some caution.


And more to the point, better than any story I can think of aside from those.


That it wasn't the best use of his powers ever, but still in the top three, is hardly a mark against WW or an argument for mid-herald.



The arguments of "It's not a trans busting feat," and "It's not as good as the Elite fight," do not add up to "Not high-herald," or "not still darn impressive." That's basically my problem here- you're arguing against her being higher than I'm arguing, and using that as justification for putting her lower than you're arguing.

It seems to me like WW is just being held to a higher standard than other HHs.
Every character has some feats that are outside their power bracket like wonder man fighting thor nearly evenly or vision beating entire squadron supreme. If we go by just high end feats superman, thor and surfer would be skyfathers.