Can the joker be killed without impunity?

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HueyFreeman
We always hear stupid batman stories where he tells someone whose about to cross the line "if you kill (whatever villian) I will hunt you down and bring you to justice". When you think about it thats one of the most empty threats possible. You could probably kill joker in broad daylight ala (kingdom come) and get off scott free. You could argue Joker poses a real and consitant threat since he keeps escaping arkham . The recent villian "nobody" could have murdered almost all of batmans rogue gallery and walked into the police station and confessed and I doubt would get any time.

Bentley
He'd go to jail because of the Penguin and the Riddler, but nobody would care about killing the Joker actually.

Except DC stick out tongue

HueyFreeman
Originally posted by Bentley
He'd go to jail because of the Penguin and the Riddler, but nobody would care about killing the Joker actually.

Except DC stick out tongue Which brings me to another point. Joker has filled a graveyard with dead bodies. You mean to tell me none of those families decided they wanted revenge? Deathstrokes the most obvious assassin that could get it done without a problem. Shiva too.

BlackZero30x
they would probably give you a medal and throw a parade in your honer if you killed the joker.

Bentley
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Which brings me to another point. Joker has filled a graveyard with dead bodies. You mean to tell me none of those families decided they wanted revenge? Deathstrokes the most obvious assassin that could get it done without a problem. Shiva too.

Joker probably kills entire families so nobody tries to avenge his kills embarrasment

JakeTheBank
Joker's protected by plot armor, more so than even Batman himself.

AlmightyKfish
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Which brings me to another point. Joker has filled a graveyard with dead bodies. You mean to tell me none of those families decided they wanted revenge? Deathstrokes the most obvious assassin that could get it done without a problem. Shiva too.

Eh, the majority of people Joker has killed wouldn''t have families rich enough to hire the A-list assassins. There's also the fact that pretty much no supervillain wants to act against the Joker because most of them are terrified by him.

But those are just in universe ways of explaining plot armour tbh.

HueyFreeman
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Eh, the majority of people Joker has killed wouldn''t have families rich enough to hire the A-list assassins. There's also the fact that pretty much no supervillain wants to act against the Joker because most of them are terrified by him.

But those are just in universe ways of explaining plot armour tbh. Its hard to take that serious some times. Dont get me wrong I love the Joker character but there are plenty of sociopaths in DC that the whole crazy schick wont fly with. Hell I remember Bane treated him like a ***** in NML and people like deathstroke, mr freeze, poison ivy are each more than capable (and willing) of killing him.

JayDaDon
PfH3bDPNGHw

superm

-Pr-
I love how Batman is watching the execution and just not giving a ****.

Though the constant wailing on him did make me laugh.

basilisk
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Eh, the majority of people Joker has killed wouldn''t have families rich enough to hire the A-list assassins. Joker probably has thousands of victims with families in all walks of life. It would work like a class action, they all put in whatever they can afford, a few hundred, a few thousand, twenty thousand, fifty thousand... pretty soon it all adds up and they can hire Deathstroke to do the job nice and professional.

Blight
It would actually be a really interesting idea for a story. Batman trying to protect the Joker from Deathstroke, all the while the Joker is trying to escape Batman just to screw with him.

roughrider
Originally posted by basilisk
Joker probably has thousands of victims with families in all walks of life. It would work like a class action, they all put in whatever they can afford, a few hundred, a few thousand, twenty thousand, fifty thousand... pretty soon it all adds up and they can hire Deathstroke to do the job nice and professional.

That was the opening scene in Kevin Smith's Batman: Cacophony. Deadshot - not Deathstroke - had been hired by a rich family to break into Arkham and kill the Joker, due to the family's young son being killed by a party drug offshoot of Joker Venom called 'Chuckles.' He was nearly ready to do it when Onomatopoeia breaks in and kidnaps Joker for his own plan.

It's the unspoken truth about the Batman stories; that some bystander could gun Joker down in broad daylight, and despite being arrested and James Gordon getting in a tizzy about the necessity of the law, no jury would convict this person when it came time for trial. It's a problem DC created for themselves when they decided to let the character get murderous again after The Dark Knight Returns in the mid 1980's, and it's gotten worse & worse. Hell, Batman has gotten a second villain in that time in Szasz who's a straight up serial killing sicko, and all he does is get sent to Arkham again & again.

Batman, unfortunately, is equated with being the equal of the law & order departments in Gotham City - Spider Man and Daredevil don't have that kind of pressure as vigilantes. The failure of the system is his failure, too. He can say he doesn't have the right to make martial decisions about the worst criminals in the city...but for him and the Gotham police, the argument has looked increasingly hollow; for decades now.

-Pr-
Originally posted by roughrider
That was the opening scene in Kevin Smith's Batman: Cacophony. Deadshot - not Deathstroke - had been hired by a rich family to break into Arkham and kill the Joker, due to the family's young son being killed by a party drug offshoot of Joker Venom called 'Chuckles.' He was nearly ready to do it when Onomatopoeia breaks in and kidnaps Joker for his own plan.

It's the unspoken truth about the Batman stories; that some bystander could gun Joker down in broad daylight, and despite being arrested and James Gordon getting in a tizzy about the necessity of the law, no jury would convict this person when it came time for trial. It's a problem DC created for themselves when they decided to let the character get murderous again after The Dark Knight Returns in the mid 1980's, and it's gotten worse & worse. Hell, Batman has gotten a second villain in that time in Szasz who's a straight up serial killing sicko, and all he does is get sent to Arkham again & again.

Batman, unfortunately, is equated with being the equal of the law & order departments in Gotham City - Spider Man and Daredevil don't have that kind of pressure as vigilantes. The failure of the system is his failure, too. He can say he doesn't have the right to make martial decisions about the worst criminals in the city...but for him and the Gotham police, the argument has looked increasingly hollow; for decades now.

Hollow? I don't see how.

If Batman killed the Joker tomorrow, he'd be seen as a hero who murders his villains, and while some would sympathise with him, Batman's mental state is going to be called in to question, and the League would hunt him.

No more Bruce as Batman.

AlmightyKfish
Originally posted by basilisk
Joker probably has thousands of victims with families in all walks of life. It would work like a class action, they all put in whatever they can afford, a few hundred, a few thousand, twenty thousand, fifty thousand... pretty soon it all adds up and they can hire Deathstroke to do the job nice and professional.

Yeah but that's kinda forgetting the fact Joker is nearly as hard to get a jump on as Batman, it's not like he's going to sit around and wait for Deathstroke to kill him. I mean, sure in a straight up fight Joker would get killed, but the fact is he's incredibly smart and well prepared, and would almost certainly hear about it if Deathstroke was gunning for him.

HueyFreeman
Originally posted by -Pr-
Hollow? I don't see how.

If Batman killed the Joker tomorrow, he'd be seen as a hero who murders his villains, and while some would sympathise with him, Batman's mental state is going to be called in to question, and the League would hunt him.

No more Bruce as Batman. He doesnt have to do the deed himself. Remember Tim Drake figured out a way to get Captain Boomerang killed but he bitched out at the last moment.

Lek Kuen
Originally posted by -Pr-
Hollow? I don't see how.

If Batman killed the Joker tomorrow, he'd be seen as a hero who murders his villains, and while some would sympathise with him, Batman's mental state is going to be called in to question, and the League would hunt him.

No more Bruce as Batman.

If he only killed Joker, the League would be concerned and talk with him but I doubt they'd hunt him down and make him stop being a hero. I'm sure they'd understand since many of them have killed someone before.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
If he only killed Joker, the League would be concerned and talk with him but I doubt they'd hunt him down and make him stop being a hero. I'm sure they'd understand since many of them have killed someone before.

Unlike them, though, this is Batman. His mental state has been called in to question before.

And what happens when he kills the next mass-murdering villain? Or does anyone honestly believe it would stop at Joker?

JayDaDon
I'm really curious to see how things go with the jokers upcoming return.

Lek Kuen
Originally posted by -Pr-
Unlike them, though, this is Batman. His mental state has been called in to question before.

And what happens when he kills the next mass-murdering villain? Or does anyone honestly believe it would stop at Joker?

Then they'll make him retire, and stop him forcefully if they need to. I'd just like to think they'd be disappointed and worried but understanding if one day he got pushed to fire and killed a villain.

Endless Mike
If the Joker died some plot device would bring him back within a month

roughrider
Originally posted by -Pr-
Hollow? I don't see how.

If Batman killed the Joker tomorrow, he'd be seen as a hero who murders his villains, and while some would sympathise with him, Batman's mental state is going to be called in to question, and the League would hunt him.

No more Bruce as Batman.

It's the Joker. Killing him is right up there with killing Darkseid, which Batman did in Final Crisis (making a once-in-a-lifetime exception to his rule.) I'd understand if the League did talk to him, to make sure this wasn't a permanent change in tactics by him, but saying he'd have to retire over it would be as wrong headed as how Bruce & Clark treated Diana for killing Maxwell Lord.

I mean, Hal Jordan & the rest of the GL Corps have been given martial authority by the Guardians since the Sinestro Corps War. Would the League hunt him down if he used it as directed by his masters? (Or has that been retconned, just like Superman's execution of the three Kryptonian criminals from John Byrne's pocket universe?)

-Pr-
Originally posted by roughrider
It's the Joker. Killing him is right up there with killing Darkseid, which Batman did in Final Crisis (making a once-in-a-lifetime exception to his rule.) I'd understand if the League did talk to him, to make sure this wasn't a permanent change in tactics by him, but saying he'd have to retire over it would be as wrong headed as how Bruce & Clark treated Diana for killing Maxwell Lord.

I mean, Hal Jordan & the rest of the GL Corps have been given martial authority by the Guardians since the Sinestro Corps War. Would the League hunt him down if he used it as directed by his masters? (Or has that been retconned, just like Superman's execution of the three Kryptonian criminals from John Byrne's pocket universe?)

Killing Darkseid is completely different.

The only reason Diana was allowed to continue after what happened with Lord was because of what Lord had been doing to Superman. That, and the League was fractured at that point; they had bigger problems than taking Diana in.

The League doesn't know what Jordan does, though, and how many people on Earth has he killed? As horrible as it might sound, the League cares more about Earth than it does the universe.

Deadline
Originally posted by -Pr-
Killing Darkseid is completely different.

Not really. I guess Darkseid is just a worse version of the Joker. Well I guess you just have to be a threat to the whole universe but being a mass muderer doesn't matter.


Originally posted by -Pr-

The League doesn't know what Jordan does, though, and how many people on Earth has he killed? As horrible as it might sound, the League cares more about Earth than it does the universe.

I dunno man doesn't Superman do alot of stuff in outer space? What about WW doesn't she operate in other dimensions? So no thats not a legit reason. Werent the GL corps given authorisation to kill at the end of the Sinestro wars in front of every one? Could be wrong about that one, maybe I remembered it wrong.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Deadline
Not really. I guess Darkseid is just a worse version of the Joker. Well I guess you just have to be a threat to the whole universe but being a mass muderer doesn't matter.




I dunno man doesn't Superman do alot of stuff in outer space? What about WW doesn't she operate in other dimensions? So no thats not a legit reason. Werent the GL corps given authorisation to kill at the end of the Sinestro wars in front of every one? Could be wrong about that one, maybe I remembered it wrong.

Darkseid threatened the very multiverse with his actions. Joker, when it comes down to it, is just a prolific murderer. He can still be put in prison, arrested etc.

Superman doesn't follow the Green Lanterns around. Diana goes to other dimenions that the Green Lanterns don't operate in.

So yes, I don't see why it's not a legit reason, especially seeing as Green Lanterns are the equivalent of the police. Superman doesn't go after cops who shoot dead a bank-robber. Why? Because they're part of the law. Green Lanterns are part of galactic law.

Batman is neither of those things.

Deadline
Originally posted by -Pr-
Darkseid threatened the very multiverse with his actions. Joker, when it comes down to it, is just a prolific murderer.


Why are you playing with words? He's a mass murderer who on some ocassions torturers people to death. So basically what you're saying is it doesn't matter unless he becomes a multiversal threat.

Didn't The Joker become a threat to the whole planet (universe and possibly multiverse) on one ocassion? Thats not important either is it?

Originally posted by -Pr-

He can still be put in prison, arrested etc.

Haven't people pointed out that The Joker keeps breaking out?


Originally posted by -Pr-


Superman doesn't follow the Green Lanterns around. Diana goes to other dimenions that the Green Lanterns don't operate in.


You missed the point. Superman and WW are concerned with justice on other planets and dimesnions not just earth.


Originally posted by -Pr-



So yes, I don't see why it's not a legit reason, especially seeing as Green Lanterns are the equivalent of the police. Superman doesn't go after cops who shoot dead a bank-robber. Why? Because they're part of the law. Green Lanterns are part of galactic law.

Batman is neither of those things.

Yea actually Batman is unoffically and he still went after Darkseid.

-Pr-
...Please re-read my post until you get the actual point of what I said, without trying to aggressively start something.

Deadline
Originally posted by -Pr-
...Please re-read my post until you get the actual point of what I said, without trying to aggressively start something.

I don't need to read anything. As usual you're not intelligent enough to get the point I'm making, oh I made an edit not that it matters.

I'm not being aggressive it's not my fault you talk nonsense on a regular basis. Also I'm not the one who replied to your post 1 second after they had been posted.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Deadline
I don't need to read anything. As usual you're not intelligent enough to get the point I'm making, oh I made an edit not that it matters.

I'm not being aggressive it's not my fault you talk nonsense on a regular basis. Also I'm not the one who replied to your post 1 second after they had been posted.

erm

Why are you so aggressive? Seriously? Did I accidentally run over your cat or something?

Deadline
Originally posted by -Pr-
erm

Why are you so aggressive? Seriously? Did I accidentally run over your cat or something?

Calling you out on nonsense isn't being aggressive.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Deadline
Calling you out on nonsense isn't being aggressive.

Your general attitude and your bashing is, though.

Especially when it's unprovoked.

Lek Kuen
Originally posted by -Pr-

The League doesn't know what Jordan does, though, and how many people on Earth has he killed? As horrible as it might sound, the League cares more about Earth than it does the universe.
I always found that funny with superheros, they're so much more tolerant about non humans being killed despite the whole "every life matters!'

Deadline
Look man Joker has been a threat to the whole earth. Stole Mxys power and apparently stole the warlogog. He's not just a mass murderer or prolific killer.

Tzeentch._
I don't want to believe that the reason why Batman doesn't kill is because the JLA is stupid enough to think that allowing a mass murderer to go to jail knowing that he's going to inevitably break out and kill a bunch of innocent people is the superior alternative to letting Batman just kill the guy. I don't want to believe that the JLA is that incompetent.

JayDaDon
I wonder how batman would feel about lobotomizing the joker somehow. Hell a good idea would be for arkham to do it when they got him. Wouldn't be surprised if it's already been tried though.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
I don't want to believe that the reason why Batman doesn't kill is because the JLA is stupid enough to think that allowing a mass murderer to go to jail knowing that he's going to inevitably break out and kill a bunch of innocent people is the superior alternative to letting Batman just kill the guy. I don't want to believe that the JLA is that incompetent.

It's not something most of them have even thought about. If he did kill Joker though, some of them would hunt him as they'd be worried he'd gone off the deep end.

Especially since he's spent years preaching about not killing.

Blair Wind
I've never understood the hero's defense against "no killing". I can most definitely understand no murder. Everyone should have the chance to be tried criminally (unless they are like Darksied and thus above human social constraints).

However, Law Enforcement officers can and do kill - not murder. There is a big difference between the two words. Murder implies there was a choice and that the person could have been taken in or that you did the death blow due to an emotional reason where another option was available.

Killing someone for the greater good is something that happens in the real world - and I think some of the heroes (I can see Wonder Woman being for this) need to realize this. In this case, there is no other option for Joker. If you take him in you realize this is only a temporary respite until he breaks free and kills again. Those lives are directly in your hands if he continues to live.

Batman might not want to kill Joker to keep his own hands relatively clean - but I don't see how he can get upset if someone else kills him. At this point, the Joker has been allowed so many chances that if Gotham were Texas, he'd be dead.

Blight
I'm pretty sure that the point Deadline isn't quite grasping is that if Batman kills the Joker, he knows the Joker has won and Batman will never forgive himself.

HueyFreeman
Originally posted by Blight
I'm pretty sure that the point Deadline isn't quite grasping is that if Batman kills the Joker, he knows the Joker has won and Batman will never forgive himself. But that also implies that batman at his core is full of shit. He doesnt want justice, he wants to win which makes jokers statements about them being made for eachother all the more true since both are perfectly willing to play this game forever, innocent lives be damned.

Blight
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
But that also implies that batman at his core is full of shit. He doesnt want justice, he wants to win which makes jokers statements about them being made for eachother all the more true since both are perfectly willing to play this game forever innocent lives be damned
I wouldn't be surprised if you were right, to be honest. In the end he's just a kid trying to avenge his parents in one of the most constructive ways possible. To think that is below him is absurd; he's only human.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Blair Wind
I've never understood the hero's defense against "no killing". I can most definitely understand no murder. Everyone should have the chance to be tried criminally (unless they are like Darksied and thus above human social constraints).

However, Law Enforcement officers can and do kill - not murder. There is a big difference between the two words. Murder implies there was a choice and that the person could have been taken in or that you did the death blow due to an emotional reason where another option was available.

Killing someone for the greater good is something that happens in the real world - and I think some of the heroes (I can see Wonder Woman being for this) need to realize this. In this case, there is no other option for Joker. If you take him in you realize this is only a temporary respite until he breaks free and kills again. Those lives are directly in your hands if he continues to live.

Batman might not want to kill Joker to keep his own hands relatively clean - but I don't see how he can get upset if someone else kills him. At this point, the Joker has been allowed so many chances that if Gotham were Texas, he'd be dead.

Several of the League are killers through and through. Aquaman has let sharks attack villains (defenceless ones too), and we all know that Barry and Diana have straight up murdered people.

The problem is twofold, imo: I'm not sure they'd believe Batman would stop at the Joker. Outside of Aquaman, most of the League have only killed when they were pushed that far. If Bruce gave in and finally killed Joker after years of holding back, they'd have to wonder what the hell changed.

Bruce himself said how easy it would be to just give in.

Second, those in the league that don't kill would want to bring him in.

I just can't see him killing Joker without there being a massive shift in the status quo.

Deadline
Originally posted by Blight
I'm pretty sure that the point Deadline isn't quite grasping is that if Batman kills the Joker, he knows the Joker has won and Batman will never forgive himself.

Not sure you do. It may have been raised earlier but not when I was in discussion.

T-Wrecks
There have been several times in which Batman has struggled with the choice of killing the Joker, and almost every time, someone else has intervened (like Superman or Gordan or what have you). Batman is always enraged in these situations, usually due to Joker doing something extreme, so I have to wonder; if no one was there to stop him and batman did kill the Joker in a rage, would any of the other heroes really hold it against him? It was already mentioned that WW killed Lord to save Superman, and while people still looked down on her for doing it, they didn't take any action against her due to the situation. With Batman killing Darkseid, there really wasn't much else that could have been done there, if not Batman then someone else might have done the same thing (not to mention Batman "dies" right afterwards so no one can really complain). So given the right situation, wouldn't the league let it slide this one time? Sure, if he did again, like to Zsasz or Professor Pyg (he kills people right? I forget, he's crazy a shit though, that I know), then they would be like "ok, he kills now" and do what ever, but one Joker killing at the right time, I think they would let slide.

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