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Ok, we know that Marek was ultimately "no match" for the Emperor's powers. But what happens if he is teamed up with TFU Vader? Would the outcome be different?

Setting: The battle takes place in the Senate Rotunda (where Yoda fought Sids)

Two scenarios:

1) the team vs. TFU Sidious

2) the team vs. ROTS Sidious

Who prevails?

Is this an open attack, or could Vader allow the Emperor to think he still stands with him, then turn on him once Galen initiates the attack?

^ Vader and Marek directly challenge the Emperor as they enter the Senate.

ROTS Sidious would probably blitz them both in Sabers before they even get into a Force fight.

Nah. Team wins.

The team wins imo.

Well, even assuming open combat then yes, the team should win though not easily. Sidious at peak was a beast with sabers and I'll assume he's dual wielding so that should be close. Marek and Vader together though utilizing all of their ability would overwhelm in the end... until Bane emerges from no where and gets Sidious' back

Both Vader and Marek are at about 80% of the Dark Lord. I can't see him pulling through here. These guys aren't Maul and Savage.

That would be my reasoning. They're both Heavy Hitters, not mid-level goons like Maul and Savage.

More than anything else, TFU proves how whipped Vader was. If he didn't feel comfortable taking out Sidious with Marek by his side then he might as well have given up then and there. He probably did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That would be my reasoning. They're both Heavy Hitters, not mid-level goons like Maul and Savage.

More than anything else, TFU proves how whipped Vader was. If he didn't feel comfortable taking out Sidious with Marek by his side then he might as well have given up then and there. He probably did.

The only way I see the Emperor pulling a win here is if he can blast Vader with lightning quickly enough to disable him. The problem is, even if he does do that he still runs the risk of Vader continuing the fight until he dies.

Even if he does I think Galen could probably block the lightning. Vader has enough feats of tanking lightning for him to last at least long enough for that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even if he does I think Galen could probably block the lightning. Vader has enough feats of tanking lightning for him to last at least long enough for that.

I wonder how Galen's physical strength compares to the likes of Savage Opress.

Well, Marek can toss TIE fighters around with his bare hands.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
These guys aren't Maul and Savage.

Apparently I'm missing something here. Does Sidious end of fighting Maul and Oppress? If so, in what source?

The new Maul book thats coming out soon as well as the Clone Wars Cartoon.

Basically he murders the **** out of them at the same time.

An 80% Vader plus the guy who stymied Palpatine is more than enough.

Wasn't Sideous completely unharmed after Galen's sacrifice attack?

Yes. But I don't think that means he's that much more powerful than Marek necessarily.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. But I don't think that means he's that much more powerful than Marek necessarily.

I think he's a fair bit more powerful than Marek. But the difference between them is not as great as to say Sidious>x2 Marek. I think two people on Marek and Vader's level, that is to say Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Revan would be enough to bring Sidious down.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I think he's a fair bit more powerful than Marek. But the difference between them is not as great as to say Sidious>x2 Marek. I think two people on Marek and Vader's level, that is to say Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Revan would be enough to bring Sidious down.

Since Mace Windu took down Sidious alone I'd say he's sufficiently above Vader & Marek's level.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Both Vader and Marek are at about 80% of the Dark Lord. I can't see him pulling through here. These guys aren't Maul and Savage.

I personally think in Sabers Maul should be > Vader. Of course Vader >>> Maul in the Force but still I say that gives ROTS Sidious a decent chance of Blitzing in Sabers here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They're both Heavy Hitters, not mid-level goons like Maul and Savage.


Just makes the whole Maul story arc in CW kind of gay and unnecessary. What's the point in bringing a mid-level goon back from the dead just to stay a mid-level goon.

Pointless story arc Imo.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Since Mace Windu took down Sidious alone I'd say he's sufficiently above Vader & Marek's level.

Nah, he only did that cuz of Vaapad and Shatterpoint, plus the Sidious he fought wasn't the Sidious Marek fought.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah, he only did that cuz of Vaapad and Shatterpoint, plus the Sidious he fought wasn't the Sidious Marek fought.

The Sidious Mace fought was most likely superior in Sabers to the one who killed Marek.

And Shatterpoint's a talent of his he can use against anyone, or anything.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Since Mace Windu took down Sidious alone I'd say he's sufficiently above Vader & Marek's level.

Vaapad is a Sith Lord's worse nightmare, so no.




Definitely not, Vader's saber feats are superior as of Purge. Not to mention he consistently trounces Galen in sabers, who himself could fight on par with Shaak Ti; a noted swordsman.




He moved up from Mid-level to Mid-high level....sort of.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Vaapad is a Sith Lord's worse nightmare, so no.

Vader is a Sith. Galen has enough anger for Mace to deal with like a Sith.

Also Vapaad is lethal enough against Lightsiders and non-force sensitives as well. As it draws power from Mace's own dark emotions.

So yeah defeating ROTS Sidious puts Mace firmly above Vader and Galen Imo.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Definitely not, Vader's saber feats are superior as of Purge. Not to mention he consistently trounces Galen in sabers, who himself could fight on par with Shaak Ti; a noted swordsman.

Purge? What the comic when he beat a bunch of featless Jedi?

You think Shaak Ti compares to CW Maul?? Lol

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda





He moved up from Mid-level to Mid-high level....sort of.

Well I'm hoping for some nice feats in season 5, but it doesn't look like he'll be much better than CW Obi-Wan or Ventress. Maybe just slightly above those 2.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Vader is a Sith. Galen has enough anger for Mace to deal with like a Sith.

Also Vapaad is lethal enough against Lightsiders and non-force sensitives as well. As it draws power from Mace's own dark emotions.

So yeah defeating ROTS Sidious puts Mace firmly above Vader and Galen Imo.
Mace was using Sidious' own power against him. And also defeating ROTS Sidious? If Sidious had continued his lightning attack Mace would have eaten his own saber.






I'd rate those 7 Jedi to be a superior team to Qui-Gon and Kenobi. And Maul had a lot of difficulty with them. There is no form of Vader that is inferior to Maul imo. Most people place him at Dooku level, which is solidly above Maul as evidenced by Sidious nearly flat out saying Dooku was his better.

And Shaak Ti sat on a Dark Side Nexus and said '**** you I'm making this a pit of the Light Side', and won. So yes she compares to CW Maul. Kenobi himself admits he's learned many things from Shaak Ti and respects her as a Jedi.



I am not expecting much more out of him.

Vaapad is state of mind and has no advantage over darksiders. Shatterpoint was Anakin and not the reason why Windu won.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vaapad is state of mind and has no advantage over darksiders. Shatterpoint was Anakin and not the reason why Windu won.

That is simply not true. Windu was able to use Palpatine's hatred and power against him with the superconducting loop.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That is simply not true. Windu was able to use Palpatine's hatred and power against him with the superconducting loop.
No, it was his emotional interpretation of it. Same he did with lightning. In his mind power was going inside him and returning back into Palpatine but in reality he didn't take lightning into himself but deflected it with lightsaber.

Feeding on someones emotion is a Force power. Vaapad is Canon description clearly says that it is lightsaber form and state of mind that requires user to channel his inner darkness and relish fight.

Except he uses Vaapad in the saber fight when Sidious isn't even attacking him with the Force. What power was he taking from Sidious then?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda


I'd rate those 7 Jedi to be a superior team to Qui-Gon and Kenobi. And Maul had a lot of difficulty with them.

That's quite a baseless rating. I think your seriously underestimating Qui-Gon. He's been stated to have been one of the greatest swordsmen of TPM time period. None of those 7 Jedi your talking about have any such statements to their name as far as I know. Plus that's a bad A>B>C argument.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
There is no form of Vader that is inferior to Maul imo.

Overall Power? Yes your right. Just in Sabers? Nah CW Maul should be at least a match for him.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Most people place him at Dooku level, which is solidly above Maul as evidenced by Sidious nearly flat out saying Dooku was his better.

No. Solely in Sabers the majority put Dooku ahead of Vader by a considerable margin.

Dooku is better than Maul, but I don't recall Sidious stating that.




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not expecting much more out of him.


Well we know he's going to be shown to be more powerful than Savage.

Galen defeated Palpatine by dodging lighting, using saber lock and telekinetic assaults and force push. Darth Vader uses a red force shield that absorbs force power, which furthermore increases his telekinetic powers and powerful force blasts. Also, Vader easily parries any lightsaber strike that is directed at him, and he has considerable willpower, and Galen already defeated both of the two lords once. Team wins.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except he uses Vaapad in the saber fight when Sidious isn't even attacking him with the Force. What power was he taking from Sidious then?

The excess Dark side energy that was bleeding off of him through his aura.

- Hence a Vapaad practioner channeling an opponent's darkness into a weapon of the light.

Although, I kind of thought that was more well known, honestly.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Mace was using Sidious' own power against him. And also defeating ROTS Sidious? If Sidious had continued his lightning attack Mace would have eaten his own saber.


No. If Sidious had continued his Lightning attack - Sidious would've cooked his own head into oblivion. He was screwed either way.

And, I might add - DARTH POWER is actually totally right, here.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Vader is a Sith. Galen has enough anger for Mace to deal with like a Sith.

Also Vapaad is lethal enough against Lightsiders and non-force sensitives as well. As it draws power from Mace's own dark emotions.

So yeah defeating ROTS Sidious puts Mace firmly above Vader and Galen Imo.





Purge? What the comic when he beat a bunch of featless Jedi?

You think Shaak Ti compares to CW Maul?? Lol



Well I'm hoping for some nice feats in season 5, but it doesn't look like he'll be much better than CW Obi-Wan or Ventress. Maybe just slightly above those 2.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Since Mace Windu took down Sidious alone I'd say he's sufficiently above Vader & Marek's level.



I personally think in Sabers Maul should be > Vader. Of course Vader >>> Maul in the Force but still I say that gives ROTS Sidious a decent chance of Blitzing in Sabers here.



Just makes the whole Maul story arc in CW kind of gay and unnecessary. What's the point in bringing a mid-level goon back from the dead just to stay a mid-level goon.

Pointless story arc Imo.




DARTH POWER is completely correct, here. Props.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Since Mace Windu took down Sidious alone I'd say he's sufficiently above Vader & Marek's level.

Bull shit.

Yoda also failed to defeat Sidious. Does that make Windu superior?

Originally posted by Rookwood
No. If Sidious had continued his Lightning attack - Sidious would've cooked his own head into oblivion. He was screwed either way.

No. The RotS novel makes it clear that Mace Windu could not defend against Palps lightning any longer. Lucky for him, Sidious let up the attack right then.

Originally posted by Rookwood
And, I might add - DARTH POWER is actually totally right, here.

Nah, he really isn't.

In game Marek like Yoda demonstrated Force absorb but did not survive explosion.

In book he didn't even have Force absorb, lightning struck him full on lik
e. Sidious had unfair advantage in that final contest like Dooku had against Opress. And despite that Marek still resisted and even made Sidious suffer as well. And explosion was Marek's doing, he could continue resisting but decided to sacrfice himself to save rebels.

Moreover, Marek wasted a lot of his reserves to defeat Vader. And Sidious at that point was more powerful than in RotS.

Imho Marek is firmly above Yoda and especially Windu.
He had power in him not only to confront but even defeat Sidious but circumstances were too unfavorable for that.

Originally posted by Arhael
And Sidious at that point was more powerful than in RotS.



Proof?

And not in sabers.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Proof?

And not in sabers.
There is no proof.
However, there is a few facts implying that.

First, before purge he was dedicating most of the time to politics instead of exersizes to strain his limits like Marek did. Plagueis novel portrays that well.

Second, after RotS he didn't need to hide and could dedicate more time to increase power. For example, he drained life energy from billions of Byss beings, which he did because his immence power started decaying his body.

And the most obvious fact is that his body prior RotS could comfortably contain his power but his clone bodies were decaying within days. Imho it demonstrates that he had some room for improvement.

I didn't talk about sabers, Sidious is comfortable at engaging any opponent even without one. In RotS he disarmed Yoda with lightning. In game he fought Marek without lightsaber. Although, Marek Force handled him at the end, he did that presumably after Sidious got tired from throwing all sorts of objects and lightning, while Marek conserved his energy by dodging and using lightsaber to block lightning.

Originally posted by ares834

Yoda also failed to defeat Sidious. Does that make Windu superior?

Doy.


Originally posted by ares834

No. The RotS novel makes it clear that Mace Windu could not defend against Palps lightning any longer. Lucky for him, Sidious let up the attack right then.

Idiot - he let up because if Windu had continued to deflect his own searing Lightning back into his face, he would have died.

That's why he was screwed either way - it didn't matter that Mace was having a difficult time holding back his Lightning - Sidious's Lightning was returning back into it's source anyway, and Sidious was the only one in danger of dying of it at that point in time.

Any longer and Sidious would have fried to death, and he knew it. So he had no choice but to stop. Mace had him beaten, either way.


Originally posted by ares834

Nah, he really isn't.

Yah, he really is. - Gotta give credit where it's due.

Idiot - he let up because if Windu had continued to deflect his own searing Lightning back into his face, he would have died.

That's why he was screwed either way - it didn't matter that Mace was having a difficult time holding back his Lightning - Sidious's Lightning was returning back into it's source anyway, and Sidious was the only one in danger of dying of it at that point in time.

Any longer and Sidious would have fried to death, and he knew it. So he had no choice but to stop. Mace had him beaten, either way.
Not true.
Something like this could happen, if he continued:

"When he paused, the apprentice sent a surge of Sith lightning under his guard.

The Jedi was caught in the flickering storm. His face twisted into a pained grimace. Then he brought his right arm down and placed the blade of his lightsaber directly in the lightning's path. The energy was absorbed by the blade, then bent back upon itself in a superconducting loop, striking its source with more energy than it had originally possessed. The apprentice stiffened as pain coursed up his hands and arms. The agony was unbearable-but hear it he did. His skin melted and warped all over his body, and he gagged on the stink of his own burning flesh. The pain and revulsion only fed the dark side, so the faster the lightning came back to him, the harder and stronger it flowed from him.

The loop couldn't last forever. With a blinding blue flash he and the Jedi were blown far apart, crashing with arms out stretched into the walls of the hut and dropping to the floor. Then lightsabers skittered away in opposite directions, dead.

Flat on his back, the apprentice wheezed through his mask like an asthmatic Gand, only gradually regaining sensation in his arms and legs. His muscles twitched spastically when he tried to move. Acrid steam poured from his mask's narrow eye slits. Fearing that his Jedi opponent might be on his feet before him, he called on all the power of the Force to lift himself bodily into the air. Hanging suspended like a doll, with his feet some centimeters off the ground, he blinked his searing eyes until he could see again.

The Jedi was faring no better. He, too, was upright, but only just. He, too, had lost his lightsaber and not yet managed to claim it. The apprentice leered behind his mask. He had several other lightsabers to choose from, belonging to all the Jedi Knights he had killed. All he had to do was select one at random and strike

Instead he reached out with his left hand and, as his dark Master had done to the first Jedi killed on this spot, long ago, gripped his opponent about the throat with the Force. Still smoking from the lightning attack, the young man jerked abruptly into the air.

They faced each other across the ruined hut, neither touching the ground."

What's that from?

Originally posted by Rookwood
The excess Dark side energy that was bleeding off of him through his aura.

- Hence a Vapaad practioner channeling an opponent's darkness into a weapon of the light.

Although, I kind of thought that was more well known, honestly.

That was what I was getting at. But theres a lot of people who think differently, as you can see.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Doy.

Wait? You think WIndu is superior to Yoda?! lol

Originally posted by Rookwood
Idiot - he let up because if Windu had continued to deflect his own searing Lightning back into his face, he would have died.

That's why he was screwed either way - it didn't matter that Mace was having a difficult time holding back his Lightning - Sidious's Lightning was returning back into it's source anyway, and Sidious was the only one in danger of dying of it at that point in time.

Any longer and Sidious would have fried to death, and he knew it. So he had no choice but to stop. Mace had him beaten, either way.

If you are going to insult someone for being wrong... Make sure you are correct.

From the novel:

'"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny.'"

Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..."

"Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-"

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-"

"Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair.'

Oh, look at that. Mace Windu was unable to hold the lightning back any longer.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Yah, he really is. - Gotta give credit where it's due.

Nah, his logic is shit as anyone with a sane view will see. Sure, Mace may be superior to Starkiller. But the way he argued it is wrong.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What's that from?
TFU

You mean from Galen's crazy hallucinations in that hut?

How is that acceptable evidence for anything, it isn't real.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean from Galen's crazy hallucinations in that hut?

How is that acceptable evidence for anything, it isn't real.
Those were "Force" visions, he wasn't just smoking.

Originally posted by ares834
Wait? You think WIndu is superior to Yoda?! lol


Uh, dur, dur, dur.. I don't know dumbshit, what do you think?

Who would have killed Sidious? Mace.

I'd call being able to murder the Dark Lord of the Sith pretty decent evidence of being superior. But call me crazy.




Originally posted by ares834

If you are going to insult someone for being wrong... Make sure you are correct.

From the novel:

'"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny.'"

Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..."

"Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-"

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-"

"Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair.'

Oh, look at that. Mace Windu was unable to hold the lightning back any longer.


- I was being descriptive - you're a fvcking idiot - I was going by the film, which holds higher Canon than the novel, and the novel - in addition to the retarded bullshit you just added to unintentionally embarrass yourself, also contained:

- Anakin, hovering outside the Chancellor's Office window, and witnessing the battle between Sidious and the four Jedi Masters.

- Anakin, rushing to the Chancellor's Office but instead of just walking in like the movie - he is bared by Shaak Ti from entering.

- Anakin walking in to witness the duel between Sidious and Windu (Instead of just walking in after Sidious has been disarmed and knocked down as in the film)

- And then instead of kicking Sidious in the jaw as he did in the film, Mace instead slices Sidious's lightsaber in two.

And those were just the differences between the movie and novelization in that part of the story - with the rest of the book containing contradicting material between both mediums as well.

So what other non-Canon bullshit are you going to reference now, you fvcking retard?

The movie holds a higher Canon over the novel - and the movie doesn't have any of the bullshit lines from Mace that you stupidly listed above.

Now in the movie - which is the higher Canon - the lines are listed:

(From the actual Film)

~

(Anakin walks in after Sidious has been defeated)

Palpatine: "Anakin, I told you it would come to this. I was right. The Jedi are taking over."

Mace: "The oppression of the Sith, will never return! You have lost!"

Palpatine: "No..no..you will die!"

(Palpatine unleashes streams of Lightning at Mace, who brings his lightsaber up and begins reflecting them)

Palpatine: "Traitor!"

Mace: "He is the traitor!"

(Mace stands strong and reflects bolts back into Palpatine, who looks up at Anakin, speaking weakly)

Sidious: "I have the power to save the one you love.."

Sidious: "You must choose.."

Mace: "Don't listen to him, Anakin!"

(Mace pushes the lightning back into Sidious hard, causing Sidious's eyes to close momentarily and his face to contort in weakness)

Sidious: "Don't let him kill me..

Sidious: "I can't hold it any longer..I..I..I..I..I can't..too weak.."

Sidious: "Anakin.. help me..help me."

(Mace finishes reflecting the Lightning back into Sidious, as Sidious stops and lays his hands down, his head resting back on the ledge)

Sidious: (Weakly) "Ahh..I.I.I.I..can't hold him any longer.."

Mace: "I am going to end this, once and for all!"

~

Okay - that's the higher Canon Movie - line for line - verbatim.

Gee, I don't see any dumb bullshit about Mace not being able to hold Sidious in there, did you?

Seemed like it was 100% the opposite. Idiot.

I don't know whether your mother's umbilical cord strangled you while you were in the womb, and happened to cut off some blood flow to your brain, but I'd be willing to bet that probably did happen.

- So in the future, if you're going to assume someone is being insulting towards you - even though they're just being descriptive of how fvcking stupid you actually are - I would make sure to be right about what you type - Retard.

Now go back to your crib and eat some more baby food there.







Originally posted by ares834

Nah, his logic is shit as anyone with a sane view will see. Sure, Mace may be superior to Starkiller. But the way he argued it is wrong.


- No, yeah, he's wrong about things sometimes - but he was right this time, and he deserves kudos for that.

I give credit where it's due, just like I give discredit where it's due.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Uh, dur, dur, dur.. I don't know dumbshit, what do you think?

Who would have killed Sidious? Mace.

I'd call being able to murder the Dark Lord of the Sith pretty decent evidence of being superior. But call me crazy.

Then you fail to take into consideration multiple circumstances such as Mace Windu using Vaapad to defeat Sidious.

You're relying on the common ABC argument which is flawed when it comes to character battles.

Originally posted by Rookwood - I was being descriptive - you're a fvcking idiot - I was going by the film, which holds higher Canon than the novel, and the novel - in addition to the retarded bullshit you just added to unintentionally embarrass yourself, also contained:

- Anakin, hovering outside the Chancellor's Office window, and witnessing the battle between Sidious and the four Jedi Masters.

- Anakin, rushing to the Chancellor's Office but instead of just walking in like the movie - he is bared by Shaak Ti from entering.

- Anakin walking in to witness the duel between Sidious and Windu (Instead of just walking in after Sidious has been disarmed and knocked down as in the film)

- And then instead of kicking Sidious in the jaw as he did in the film, Mace instead slices Sidious's lightsaber in two.

And those were just the differences between the movie and novelization in that part of the story - with the rest of the book containing contradicting material between both mediums as well.

So what other non-Canon bullshit are you going to reference now, you fvcking retard?

Seriously, what the **** is you're god damn problem? Why the hell do you get so gad damned aggressive? Please, at least attempt at keeping some sense of civility.

And, yes, the film does at times contradicts the novel. But where there are no contradictions the novel is considered canon.

Originally posted by Rookwood
The movie holds a higher Canon over the novel - and the movie doesn't have any of the bullshit lines from Mace that you stupidly listed above.

Now in the movie - which is the higher Canon - the lines are listed:
...
Gee, I don't see any dumb bullshit about Mace not being able to hold Sidious in there, did you?


Cool. Mace Windu's lines are contradicted, I wasn't relying on those as evidence, but rather the following:

"This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade."

"Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

Yeah, don't see that being contradicted by the film at all. Do you? Or are you somehow able to perfectly assess a character's thoughts during a film?

Originally posted by Rookwood
Seemed like it was 100% the opposite. Idiot.

I don't know whether your mother's umbilical cord strangled you while you were in the womb, and happened to cut off some blood flow to your brain, but I'd be willing to bet that probably did happen.

- So in the future, if you're going to assume someone is being insulting towards you - even though they're just being descriptive of how fvcking stupid you actually are - I would make sure to be right about what you type - Retard.

Now go back to your crib and eat some more baby food there.



Ad hominems abound! I guess if you can't win a debate by being civil, trolling the opposition is the best way to have the opposition give up.

I understand you're still butthurt from the AotC Yoda vs Zonakin thread, but acting like an ass isn't going to work.

Originally posted by ares834
Then you fail to take into consideration multiple circumstances such as Mace Windu using Vaapad to defeat Sidious.

You're relying on the common ABC argument which is flawed when it comes to character battles.



Seriously, what the **** is you're god damn problem? Why the hell do you get so gad damned aggressive? Please, at least attempt at keeping some sense of civility.

And, yes, the film does at times contradicts the novel. But where there are no contradictions the novel is considered canon.



Cool. Mace Windu's lines are contradicted, I wasn't relying on those as evidence, but rather the following:

"This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade."

"Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

Yeah, don't see that being contradicted by the film at all. Do you? Or are you somehow able to perfectly assess a character's thoughts during a film?





Ad hominems abound! I guess if you can't win a debate by being civil, trolling the opposition is the best way to have the opposition give up.

I understand you're still butthurt from the AotC Yoda vs Zonakin thread, but acting like an ass isn't going to work.
Rockwood will get restricted if he keeps that up. Don't worry. Don't take it personally and the moderators will get rid of him.And one more question: how come EVERY SINGLE TIME Sidious is mentioned in these threads, Mace freakin Windu shows up?

Originally posted by ares834
Then you fail to take into consideration multiple circumstances such as Mace Windu using Vaapad to defeat Sidious.

You're relying on the common ABC argument which is flawed when it comes to character battles.

Seriously, what the **** is you're god damn problem? Why the hell do you get so gad damned aggressive? Please, at least attempt at keeping some sense of civility.

And, yes, the film does at times contradicts the novel. But where there are no contradictions the novel is considered canon.

Cool. Mace Windu's lines are contradicted, I wasn't relying on those as evidence, but rather the following:

"This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade."

"Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

I know I was totally in error about my last post, but I'm going to go ahead and fish for any kind of excuse I can, and just pretend I wasn't wrong about anything.


And you're still proving yourself to be an Idiot.

Yeah, go up again genius and read the verbatim lines from the film, again - and watch the movie - Mace didn't have the type of trouble the lesser Canon novelization weakly implied.

The only person out of strength was Sidious - as he kept stating, over and over.

Mace didn't state anything, except assertively redirecting Sidious's Lightning back into Sidious, until Sidious was incapacitated, moaning about how weak he was.

Mace was showed no weakness whatsoever - but for Sidious it was the opposite - as his moans would attest to.

In that way, and in the way of dialogue, the novel clearly contradicts the Canon of the film - which is what is correct here.

Now pull your head out of your ass.





Originally posted by ares834

I understand you're still butthurt from the AotC Yoda vs Zonakin thread


I actually forgot about that thread, due to other activities requesting my attention outside of this place, but I'll attend to it soon.

Originally posted by Rookwood
And you're still proving yourself to be an Idiot.

Yeah, go up again genius and read the verbatim lines from the film, again - and watch the movie - Mace didn't have the type of trouble the lesser Canon novelization weakly implied.

We see Mace struggling, we see him grimacing. So, no, it's not contradicted.

Originally posted by Rookwood
The only person out of strength was Sidious - as he kept stating, over and over.

Mace didn't state anything, except assertively redirecting Sidious's Lightning back into Sidious, until Sidious was incapacitated, moaning about how weak he was.

Mace was showed no weakness whatsoever - but for Sidious it was the opposite - as his moans would attest to.

You know Palpatine is faking there, right? As soon as Anakin cuts off Windu's arm Palpatine quits moaning, shouts in triumph, and once again begins his lightning. In fact, Lucas says Palaptine "pretends to lose his powers and be weak".

Originally posted by Arhael
Not true.
Something like this could happen, if he continued:

"When he paused, the apprentice sent a surge of Sith lightning under his guard.

The Jedi was caught in the flickering storm. His face twisted into a pained grimace. Then he brought his right arm down and placed the blade of his lightsaber directly in the lightning's path. The energy was absorbed by the blade, then bent back upon itself in a superconducting loop, striking its source with more energy than it had originally possessed. The apprentice stiffened as pain coursed up his hands and arms. The agony was unbearable-but hear it he did. His skin melted and warped all over his body, and he gagged on the stink of his own burning flesh. The pain and revulsion only fed the dark side, so the faster the lightning came back to him, the harder and stronger it flowed from him.

The loop couldn't last forever. With a blinding blue flash he and the Jedi were blown far apart, crashing with arms out stretched into the walls of the hut and dropping to the floor. Then lightsabers skittered away in opposite directions, dead.

Flat on his back, the apprentice wheezed through his mask like an asthmatic Gand, only gradually regaining sensation in his arms and legs. His muscles twitched spastically when he tried to move. Acrid steam poured from his mask's narrow eye slits. Fearing that his Jedi opponent might be on his feet before him, he called on all the power of the Force to lift himself bodily into the air. Hanging suspended like a doll, with his feet some centimeters off the ground, he blinked his searing eyes until he could see again.

The Jedi was faring no better. He, too, was upright, but only just. He, too, had lost his lightsaber and not yet managed to claim it. The apprentice leered behind his mask. He had several other lightsabers to choose from, belonging to all the Jedi Knights he had killed. All he had to do was select one at random and strike

Instead he reached out with his left hand and, as his dark Master had done to the first Jedi killed on this spot, long ago, gripped his opponent about the throat with the Force. Still smoking from the lightning attack, the young man jerked abruptly into the air.

They faced each other across the ruined hut, neither touching the ground."

Wow. Well spotted!

And does it really say "superconducting loop"?? Interesting..

Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean from Galen's crazy hallucinations in that hut?

How is that acceptable evidence for anything, it isn't real.

It's what would have happened if Galen chose to kill Vader and the darkside ending of TFUI took place.

Originally posted by ares834
Bull shit.

Yoda also failed to defeat Sidious. Does that make Windu superior?





Yeah I was exaggerating a bit there. But he should be sufficiently above them in Sabers at least Imho.

I guess it is possible Vader or Marek could Force Choke Mace, but if Sidious didn't do it, I'm not sure what the chances are that Vader or Marek will.

And Mace did defeat Sidious. I really don't see Vader(being 80% of Sidious) doing that unless he takes him from behind.(No pun intended).

Oh and Yoda only lost to environmental disadvantages. According to the script he beat Sidious quite comfortably in the Saber match. And we saw how he almost defeated him in the Force match as well.

Originally posted by ares834


"This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade."

"Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

Yeah, don't see that being contradicted by the film at all. Do you? Or are you somehow able to perfectly assess a character's thoughts during a film?




Looked like he was fighting against his own blade just fine (He pushes it further towards Sidious' face):

Pk4AiCnMqpg

Yeah, I'd say there's a slight contradiction there, rendering that part of the novel obsolete.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah I was exaggerating a bit there. But he should be sufficiently above them in Sabers at least Imho.

I'd agree with this.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and Yoda only lost to environmental disadvantages. According to the script he beat Sidious quite comfortably in the Saber match. And we saw how he almost defeated him in the Force match as well.

Yoda and Sidious came off as near equals in the film IMO. Sure, Yoda lost due to the environment but I don't think it Yoda outclasses Palps at all.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Looked like he was fighting against his own blade just fine (He pushes it further towards Sidious' face):

Yeah, I'd say there's a slight contradiction there, rendering that part of the novel obsolete.

I've had this argument before. I'm assuming you are talking about 3:12? Mace WIndu pushes forward there as Palps is letting up his attack. Also the editing there is bad and it seems Mace windu pushes his blade forward twice. Right there and at 3:18.

Well it could easily be mentioned in a sourcebook. I'm not sure if it has been, but I've not heard anything. Vader could also point it out, He does praise his abilities sometimes.

But I'm not sure why we should just assume he's completely mastered Juyo unless that's confirmed for us somewhere.

Sourcebooks are based on info provided by actual books, games and other material. The TFU book lacks such info, thus sourcebooks will not have it either.

Also, info in books is subject to author's interpretation and opinion. For example, complete encyclopaedia states that Marek "ultimately was no match for Palpatine's power", however, that's not what happened in the book.


Yes, it is possible that he disarmed Sidious. They fought on platform, which gave Yoda advantage. Sidious couldn't move around and was statically staying in one place, while Yoda still could jump all over the place.

As for power Yoda failed to absorb his lightning at beginning. On platforms Sidious was throwing multiple platforms, while Yoda mostly dodged. Imho Yoda used Force more wisely conserving energy, which allowed him to stalemate Sidious at the end.


True. However, it's rather vague statement.
Let me throw a few other canon examples.
Lumiya - she was more machine than Vader.

"The Force is the energy of the living. You interact with it, its eddies and flows, with your own living body. It's all right to have a mechanical part or two-an implant, a replacement foot. But for true Mastery in the Force, light side or dark side, you have to be mostly organic. I'm not, and so the greatest, the most significant powers, I can never learn."

Limiya stated that greatest powers cannot be learned, however, she never said that her regular powers got weaker.

"Nelani tried again, this time with the bust of the Bothan. It reached a halfway point between her and Lumiya, but the older woman reached out with her own free hand and the bust stopped in midair. Now it strained forward toward her; a moment later, it crept back through the air toward Nelani. It was a piece in a game of push-of-war between the women, and neither was winning.
The strain showed in Lumiya's voice, causing it to hoarsen.
...
Lumiya cast a sideways glance at the bust hovering between her and Nelani. It was beginning to creep back toward her, and the strain of keeping it at bay was showing on her face.
...
Lumiya closed her eyes and strained, but the bust still moved toward her.
...
Her last words were little more than a gasp, and her control slipped at that point."

Her Force struggle demonstrates that she is not weak in the Force, however, she gets exhausted faster than normal Force users. She was still capable to fight Mara and Luke on even terms. Even angered Luke only drove her back instead of outright stomping.

I think the way Lucas portrayed the Force is that greater power gives greater Force reserves, not stronger Force attacks. And I can support this idea with loads and loads of evidence.
Most notable one is Kenobi stalemating Anakin's Force push.
Yoda was more powerful than Dooku, however, he couldn't simply disarm him like in case with Ventress.
Yoda stalemated Sidious but them having perfect equal Force potential would be way too big coincedence. They had equal Force mastery but Sidious as more powerful had larger Force reserves.

I, also, can give many examples of prime Luke struggling against inferior Force users as well as stalemating far more powerful ones to support this idea.

Characters like Yoda, Windu, Dooku and especially Kenobi demonstrated that it is possible to stalemate far more powerful users both in combat and Force.

Back to Vader. Even in TFU II the clone was nearly getting overwhelmed by Vader's TK but after some struggle was overpowering him. It supports the idea that Vader's TK is as strong as prior to losing body parts as he still has got the same medichlorian count. However, on entering a Force contest he gets exhausted very fast and loses control.


Is it canon source? In any case whatever skill he had, he still has got a lot of physical limitations to deal with. Vader is, also, one of the most skilled saber combatants, so Yoda is not above him in that regard.



Anakin never stomped anybody in sabers.
Kenobi couldn't even stomp Mandalorian in sabers. Windu never stomped anyone.
Also, if you mention "Zonakin", Zomarek struck Vader with lightsaber several times before Force handling him.

Also, I will refer to interpretation above that even with suprerior power he still needs to outskill other inferior characters that also achieved mastery in Force and combat or at least fight them until they get exhausted.


Nope. He and Kenobi were chatting, until Luke showed up, which provoked Vader to cut conversation short. )
He was gonna kill Kenobi but he wasn't in a hurry.
"Last time we met I was nothing but the learner and now I am the Master". - According to Vader's opinion he improved since, not other way around. But you still can dismiss his opinion as a rant of an insane elder.

This fight might be an utter curbstomp in Sidious's favor depending on how much stock you put in the reliability of dark side endings.

In the dark side ending Galen had recently fought though the Death Star and then Vader twice in a row, while Sidious was well-rested. I doubt Sidious could treat him that casually if he's at 100%.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the dark side ending Galen had recently fought though the Death Star and then Vader twice in a row, while Sidious was well-rested. I doubt Sidious could treat him that casually if he's at 100%.

Marek showed no signs of exhaustion (nor do I recall any of them from the novel, which I admittedly don't have on-hand), in addition to the fact that we know Force users (Dooku) can replenish their energies pretty easily in even the most dire of circumstances.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This fight might be an utter curbstomp in Sidious's favor depending on how much stock you put in the reliability of dark side endings.

Considering in the DS ending Marek duels and "kills" a force ghost... none.

Originally posted by ares834
Considering in the DS ending Marek duels and "kills" a force ghost... none.

I believe you're referring to the DLC expansion, not the game itself.

Which is an extension of the dark side ending.

Originally posted by ares834
Which is an extension of the dark side ending.

Set years after the fact and during gameplay. Sidious's beatdown of Marek occurred during the events of the story and in a cutscene.

Though, come to think of it, we have seen Force users kill Force ghosts before.

Sith spirits, which are noticeably different than force ghosts.

I'm not going to put any more merit in this DS ending than I would in RotS's.

Originally posted by ares834
Sith spirits, which are noticeably different than force ghosts.

I'm not going to put any more merit in this DS ending than I would in RotS's.

The ROTS dark side ending is quite possible too, though Anakin kills Sidious via the element of surprise rather than an actual fight.

Scenes from the Dark Side ending are played out in the TFU Novels as visions of a possible future.

So I believe it is what would have happened had Starkiller made the choice to kill Vader.

Unfortunately the story that follows the Dark Side ending of TFUII has Sidious defeating Vader pretty damn easily as well. Which is just crap.

Hey, it's not Sidious's fault that most of the writers on the LFL payroll recognize he's smarter, more powerful, and better than everyone else in virtually every single way. Blame for this rests at the calloused feet of common sense.

Anyway, I actually don't think the fight will go that way. If we assume Marek and Vader have any reasonable understanding/impression of Palpatine, I'd say they'd beat him.

Originally posted by ares834
You know Palpatine is faking there, right? As soon as Anakin cuts off Windu's arm Palpatine quits moaning, shouts in triumph, and once again begins his lightning.

You know you're a dumbshit, right?

- And yeah, I'm sure once Palpatine realized he wasn't going to die, he did indeed shout in triumph.

Palpatine got weak not because he was running out of energy - he got weak because Mace was redirecting it back into him, and it was killing him.


Originally posted by ares834

In fact, Lucas says Palaptine "pretends to lose his powers and be weak".

Proof for this little bit of bullshit?



Originally posted by ares834
We see Mace struggling, we see him grimacing. So, no, it's not contradicted.


Wow. Your reading comprehension sucks.

Once again:


http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u387/spotty3/Contradiction.jpg

There is a huge contradiction here, Dumbshit.

- The whole crux of our argument is that you said if Sidious had continued his Lightning attack, Mace would have died, and he was lucky Sidious stopped

- The point the story made, and that I reiterated, is that if Sidious had continued his Lightning attack he would have died - nothing would have happened to Mace - the Movie makes it clear he was in control of the situation and that Sidious was dying from having his own Lightning redirected back into him, and that he couldn't keep hitting himself - until finally he wore out from (in effect) striking himself with his own Lightning.

Then after being subdued by his own attack - Sidious laid at the mercy of Windu - that should have been obvious to anyone with half a brain and 20/20 Vision.

So Mace was not in danger - if Sidious had not given up - he would have melted his own face into oblivion and died.

Mace had him beaten either way.

ROTS commentary, during the scene in question.

Rookwood is completely right, Sidious was being fried by his own lightning and couldn't continue his attack without killing himself. Had Anakin not been a complete dipshit and cut off Mace's arm, Sidious would've been killed.

Originally posted by Rookwood
- And yeah, I'm sure once Palpatine realized he wasn't going to die, he did indeed shout in triumph.

Palpatine got weak not because he was running out of energy - he got weak because Mace was redirecting it back into him, and it was killing him.

Yes, and as GL notes this weakness is, at least somewhat, fake. Hell, he stands up a few seconds later without any noticeable effort.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Proof for this little bit of bullshit?

RotS commentary. He also notes that Mace Windu does "overpower" Palaptine in the saber duel, meaning he did not lose that intentionally.

Originally posted by Rookwood
- The whole crux of our argument is that you said if Sidious had continued his Lightning attack, Mace would have died, and he was lucky Sidious stopped

Yes.

Originally posted by Rookwood
- The point the story made, and that I reiterated, is that if Sidious had continued his Lightning attack he would have died - nothing would have happened to Mace - the Movie makes it clear he was in control of the situation and that Sidious was dying from having his own Lightning redirected back into him, and that he couldn't keep hitting himself - until finally he wore out from (in effect) striking himself with his own Lightning.

We don't know how much longer it would have taken for Palpatine to be killed by his lightning. We know that Mace can no longer hold back the lightning as seen in the novel and we know Palaptine is feigning weakness. Yes, Windu's statements to Anakin are non-canon but the descriptions of him struggling and being unable to hold it back much longer are.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Then after being subdued by his own attack - Sidious laid at the mercy of Windu - that should have been obvious to anyone with half a brain and 20/20 Vision.

Strawman. I never once said Palaptine wasn't at Windu's mercy when he gave up the lightning. That's sorta the point. He's forcing Anakin to choose between Padme and by extension the Sith or the Jedi.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Mace had him beaten either way.

Sure. And Palpatine threw the force duel.

This does not necessarily follow. Just saying.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes, and as GL notes this weakness is, at least somewhat, fake. Hell, he stands up a few seconds later without any noticeable effort.

I'm sure the elation of survival and the fact that he ended up with Windu being killed gave him a temporary resurgence of strength; a boosting of morale.



Originally posted by ares834

RotS commentary. He also notes that Mace Windu does "overpower" Palaptine in the saber duel, meaning he did not lose that intentionally.

Well, yeah. Everyone knows he didn't lose intentionally.


Originally posted by ares834

Yes.

Quite.


Originally posted by ares834

We don't know how much longer it would have taken for Palpatine to be killed by his lightning.

Judging by his cries of pain and moans of weakness - I'd say he wasn't too far off from expiring had it continued.


Originally posted by ares834

Mace can no longer hold back the lightning as seen in the novel

Which again, is bullshit since the main Canon - the Movie contradicts that (Scroll-up to my other post for a memory-refresher if needed)

Mace was in control the whole time; Sidious was the one was consistently weak, until he chose to give up, over killing himself with his own Lightning.


Originally posted by ares834

and we know Palaptine is feigning weakness.

Wrong. Because as said before, everyone knows he didn't lose intentionally; so there was nothing to feign.



Originally posted by ares834

Yes, Windu's statements to Anakin are non-canon but the descriptions of him being unable to hold it back much longer are.

Bullshit.

As the movie points out - only Sidious (As he admitted twice) was unable to hold back Mace.

- Windu on the other hand was in control the whole time, and just fine.

He could have kept holding back Sidious's Lightning - and Sidious would have fried himself to death.


Originally posted by ares834

Strawman. I never once said Palaptine wasn't at Windu's mercy when he gave up the lightning. That's sorta the point. He's forcing Anakin to choose between Padme and by extension the Sith or the Jedi.

No, you missed the whole point - Mace had Sidious beat - and if Sidious had continued to fire Lightning at him, he would have killed himself in the process. Period.


Originally posted by ares834

Sure. And Palpatine threw the force duel.

The one where he nearly fried himself with his own Sith Lightning? Nah, Vapaad did that. Look it up.

I'm going to cut it down to the two main points to save time and space:

You are ignoring the fact that Lucas claims Palpatine pretends to be weak. What does this mean? It means he's faking. The "I can't hold on any longer" is a blatant lie. This is further supported by the moment where he, using the exact words in the script, "springs to life" showing this weakness is greatly over-exaggerated.

You are also ignoring the novelization, claiming that it is contradicted by the film as the film doesn't indicate Windu is struggling. However, just because Windu isn't moaning doesn't mean he isn't struggling. We see him grimacing in effort as he blocks the lightning and when he speaks it's in a strained voice. So no, I don't see how that contradicts the novel. The film is clearly showing that this is an incredibly difficult ordeal for Windu; the novelization just tells us how difficult it truly is.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Marek showed no signs of exhaustion (nor do I recall any of them from the novel, which I admittedly don't have on-hand), in addition to the fact that we know Force users (Dooku) can replenish their energies pretty easily in even the most dire of circumstances.

And yet we've seen people like Luke take a while and need more time than that to recover in other area's of the EU. Theres nothing suggesting that a Force-user has infinite stamina. And jsut because he was not panting, does not mean that Galen was near his full power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet we've seen people like Luke take a while and need more time than that to recover in other area's of the EU.

From injuries, sure. Or from more complex efforts like casting illusions on the fly. When did Luke need a while to recover because of combat fatigue?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres nothing suggesting that a Force-user has infinite stamina.

Agreed, since I didn't suggest it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And jsut because he was not panting, does not mean that Galen was near his full power.

Right, but there's nothing suggesting he was fatigued and everything suggesting otherwise.

Ares, I agree with Rookwood's points: he is very clearly correct in just about everything he's stating. The novel clearly contradicts the movie.

But...holy shit, he's rude. Ares, did you at least get a laugh out of his insults? They are so over-the-top that I got some laughs.

Originally posted by Rookwood


Bullshit.

As the movie points out - only Sidious (As he admitted twice) was unable to hold back Mace.

You keep ignoring that Lucas states he was faking his weakness.

Originally posted by Rookwood
- Windu on the other hand was in control the whole time, and just fine.


What? Mace was clearly struggling to hold off Sidious's Lightning in the movie!

Originally posted by ares834
The film is clearly showing that this is an incredibly difficult ordeal for Windu; the novelization just tells us how difficult it truly is.

The novelization depicts Windu as being unable to continue and fight against his own blade while the higher canon film renders that depiction obsolete. Your interpretation regarding editing means jack squat (BTW, I'm referring to 2:41). The film plainly shows Windu pushing back. Is he struggling? Yes of course. So is Sids. Sidious feigning being unable to continue doesn't mean he wasn't struggling as well. Both were struggling and both were able to continue.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The novelization depicts Windu as being unable to continue and fight against his own blade while the higher canon film renders that depiction obsolete. Your interpretation regarding editing means jack squat (BTW, I'm referring to 2:41). The film plainly shows Windu pushing back. Is he struggling? Yes of course. So is Sids. Sidious feigning being unable to continue doesn't mean he wasn't struggling as well. Both were struggling and both were able to continue.

I agree: Mace seemed rather fine when pleading his case, rather energetically, to Anakin, that Sidious needed to be killed. Sidious dared not attack until Anakin weakened and disarmed (dishanded, lol) him.


How does that relate to the thread? Sidious is not this uber-powerful person that some people make him out to be. I think the thread was over on the first page. Two 80 percenters versus one 100%. Alone, each would fail. Together, they should easily overpower and win.

Wasn't Starkiller said to have the same potential as the Emperor?

Otherwise why would Sidious want him as an apprentice, if he's 80%, which Vader is. Starkiller has the potential to be as strong as Sidious.

'Galen Marek was exceptionally powerful in the Force, with the potential to become one of the most powerful Force-users of all time. Emperor Palpatine believed that Marek's strength in the Force could rival his own in time. '

Originally posted by dadudemon
does that relate to the thread? Sidious is not this uber-powerful person that some people make him out to be.
Why yes...yes, he is uber-powerful,

but
Originally posted by dadudemon
Two 80 percenters versus one 100%. Alone, each would fail. Together, they should easily overpower and win.

Originally posted by ares834
Bull shit.

Yoda also failed to defeat Sidious. Does that make Windu superior?



No. The RotS novel makes it clear that Mace Windu could not defend against Palps lightning any longer. Lucky for him, Sidious let up the attack right then.



Nah, he really isn't.

He let up because he WAS KILLING HIMSELF. You act like he just let up to spare Windu.. COMPLETELY and TOTALLY FALSE and baseless I might add. The movie drives this point home with crystal clear presentation. Sids was frying himself... clearly if he continued he would've killed himself.

Originally posted by dadudemon
How does that relate to the thread? Sidious is not this uber-powerful person that some people make him out to be.

lol no.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think the thread was over on the first page. Two 80 percenters versus one 100%. Alone, each would fail. Together, they should easily overpower and win.

He was faking weakness in the sense that he could've continued to go on a little longer and not TOTALLY shot like he was making it out to be. That is the only feigning going on here and nothing more. He movie make it clear he was dying from his own lighting.. period... The only feigning is that he was totally done.. nothing more. Let's not act like he was perfectly fine and could've continued for hours. There are degrees of feigning and Palps was very slight. He was in serious trouble and could barely hold out any longer... barely holding out longer and totally done aren't far off when it comes to these types of battles with skilled masters. He was done.

That's cool, but do you have any evidence to support to what degree Sidious was faking?

I really don't see how anyone can say with certainty who would have won if Sidious didn't fake his weakness.

Sidious was the only one getting burned (although the novel claims the pain fueled his power) but clearly they were both struggling.

Ummm because the highest form of canon SHOWS Mace DISARMING Sids in Sabers. It then also shows the only person being overpowered in the froce is again SIDS. His face was outright being deformed and burned. No such evidence for Mace. How on God's green earth you could say you don't know who would've won is beyond me. Lucas straight out says MACE OVERPOWERED HIM which again was backed up by the highest form of canon. There should be no argument here. Mace would've won. As far as what degree is was feinging.. that is for the sids apologist to figure out. The facts are, that we was overpowered and disarmed. Period. Just because someone tries a last minute ploy to save his life and pretend to be a little weaker than he is.. doesn't change what we saw on panel. The degree to which is for the apologist to help them sleep at night

Easy, sweetheart. I didn't say Mace didn't legitimately lose the fight. I said you need to provide something other than your opinion.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm because the highest form of canon SHOWS Mace DISARMING Sids in Sabers. It then also shows the only person being overpowered in the froce is again SIDS. His face was outright being deformed and burned. No such evidence for Mace. How on God's green earth you could say you don't know who would've won is beyond me. Lucas straight out says MACE OVERPOWERED HIM which again was backed up by the highest form of canon. There should be no argument here. Mace would've won. As far as what degree is was feinging.. that is for the sids apologist to figure out. The facts are, that we was overpowered and disarmed. Period. Just because someone tries a last minute ploy to save his life and pretend to be a little weaker than he is.. doesn't change what we saw on panel. The degree to which is for the apologist to help them sleep at night

No one's saying he didn't win the lightsaber fight. He did. And he could have killed him then and there.

I'm talking about the Force Lightning fight which went on AFTER Mace already gave Sidious a chance to surrender. Yes Sid's face was burning, but the novel claims he just used the pain to further power himself. Sidious was struggling, but so was Mace. But Sids stopped to pretend he was weak.

So like I said, I really don't see how anyone can claim to know what would have happened had Sid's not pretended to be weak.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No one's saying he didn't win the lightsaber fight. He did. And he could have killed him then and there.

I'm talking about the Force Lightning fight which went on AFTER Mace already gave Sidious a chance to surrender. Yes Sid's face was burning, but the novel claims he just used the pain to further power himself. Sidious was struggling, but so was Mace. But Sids stopped to pretend he was weak.

So like I said, I really don't see how anyone can claim to know what would have happened had Sid's not pretended to be weak.
Finally someone agrees!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
lol no.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Why yes...yes, he is uber-powerful,


That's not the same as saying this:



There are obvious limits and Sidious is not the end-all be-all of Star Wars characters. Sure, he's powerful, but not absurdly more powerful than everyone else.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's not the same as saying this:



There are obvious limits and Sidious is not the end-all be-all of Star Wars characters. Sure, he's powerful, but not absurdly more powerful than everyone else.

That strikes me as a futile attempt to camouflage ignorance with a blatant strawman. No one contended that Sidious is "absurdly more powerful" than everyone, but there are only a small handful of characters who can contend with him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That strikes me as a futile attempt to camouflage ignorance with a blatant strawman. No one contended that Sidious is "absurdly more powerful" than everyone, but there are only a small handful of characters who can contend with him.

Very small... like microscopically small... like plank length small...



BTW, on a side note... Star Wars Episode 7 to be released in 2015.

http://tv.yahoo.com/news/star-wars-episode-7-coming-2015-lucas-hands-205350873.html

Discussion begins in the 'Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe' forum.

Indeed, "highest form of canon" sounds cool but with this statement you can go to film only threads, here we discuss EU and consider all feats.

In TFU book Marek grabbed Sidious by wrists and made him taste his own lightning like Mace. Not only this struggle lasted relatively as long as with Windu but it culminated with enormous explosion.

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the one observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.
...
Weakened by the blast, the dome's supports gave way. It collapsed into the superlaser dish, triggering a series of conventional explosions. Stormtroopers converged on the site. Through the dense smoke, two figures were visible from the apprentice's rarefied perspective.
Darth Vader struggled to his feet from the rubble, even more damaged than before. He reached out for support and found only his Master, scowling.

The explosion torn troopers to shread, caused a dome to collaps and even damaged Vader. Sidious was right next to explosion, yet, he didn't even lose his footing like Vader and was seemingly unaffected.

If Sidious can resist such a powerful explosion after suffering from his own lightning, then he definetely can resist lightning for much longer.

You could still argue that he became more powerful since RotS, which imho is true. Yet, his body at that point was weaker as he was much older and the darkside was decaying his body from within.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
BTW, on a side note... Star Wars Episode 7 to be released in 2015.

http://tv.yahoo.com/news/star-wars-episode-7-coming-2015-lucas-hands-205350873.html

Discussion begins in the 'Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe' forum.

And thus the whole post-ROTJ EU will be retconned.....

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, "highest form of canon" sounds cool but with this statement you can go to film only threads, here we discuss EU and consider all feats.



NOT when secondary canon is rendered obsolete, as it was for that particular part of novelized version of the Windu/Sidious duel.

The novel states that Windu had no power left to fight against his own blade... which was obviously not true (as I have shown).

Seeing as how KT's comment was a response directly regarding the Mace/Sids duel, your utilization of his comment to support your 'TFU Sids' argument makes little sense.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That strikes me as a futile attempt to camouflage ignorance with a blatant strawman. No one contended that Sidious is "absurdly more powerful" than everyone, but there are only a small handful of characters who can contend with him.

Okay. May bad. Let me explain more plainly.

Some, that have posted in this thread, make it seem like Darth Vader + Marek may not win.

That, to me, means they think Sidious is absurdly more powerful than all other characters.

Go back and read all of the posts. Some of them make it seem he's absurdly more powerful.

Well the databank states that Marek was 'ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.' And we all know that Vaders fear in Sidious is justified considering he killed him with a 5 second burst of lightning. I don't think that he could necessarily win, but I certainly don't think that this is a stomp in their favor.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The novelization depicts Windu as being unable to continue and fight against his own blade while the higher canon film renders that depiction obsolete. Your interpretation regarding editing means jack squat (BTW, I'm referring to 2:41). The film plainly shows Windu pushing back. Is he struggling? Yes of course. So is Sids. Sidious feigning being unable to continue doesn't mean he wasn't struggling as well. Both were struggling and both were able to continue.

Sure, but when he pushes forward that's right at the onset of the duel. It isn't until the end that Windu is unable to hold it back any longer.

Anyway, I think it's best to just agree to disagree on this. I've seen this argument done countless times (done it myself quite often) and I's unlikely that anything will change this time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well the databank states that Marek was 'ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.' And we all know that Vaders fear in Sidious is justified considering he killed him with a 5 second burst of lightning. I don't think that he could necessarily win, but I certainly don't think that this is a stomp in their favor.

Have a link for this source...

Originally posted by axel_jovan
And thus the whole post-ROTJ EU will be retconned.....



Good. Those books were shit anyway.

And something tells me the new movies might not be much different.

Although it would be better if that whole franchise just laid down, and died..

Originally posted by ares834
Lucas claims Palpatine pretends to be weak.

Source.


Originally posted by ares834

What does this mean? It means he's faking. The "I can't hold on any longer" is a blatant lie.

Just in case you haven't realized - it isn't 2005 anymore. It's 2012; and people know that Sidious wasn't faking - the fight wasn't thrown; Sidious was beaten and at Windu's mercy.

In fact, if you watch the movie, and see the part where he's saying he can't hold on any longer - his face is in great pain, his eyes are rolling back in his head and he's almost gasping - he's clearly close to being fried to death and it's highly visible.

Mace fought Sidious and Sidious lost. If Sidious had continued to fire Lightning at Mace, then Sidious would have died from the feedback going into him. This is obvious; Mace had him decidedly beaten here.



Originally posted by ares834

This is further supported by the moment where he, using the exact words in the script, "springs to life" showing this weakness is greatly over-exaggerated.

Ever seen someone go through a near-death experience, and then suddenly they find the strength to jump up in joy and elation?

Yeah; that's called a morale boost.



Originally posted by ares834

You are also ignoring the novelization,

Which is bullshit.



Originally posted by ares834

as the film doesn't indicate Windu is struggling.

Exactly, and do you why that is?

I'll give you a few moments.

- The reason is, is because Windu was in control - yeah, blocking Lightning back can be a chore - but the only person losing in this deal is Sidious, who is slowly being fried to death - and clearly can't hold on - until finally he gives up; or faces certain death.



Originally posted by ares834

So no, I don't see how that contradicts the novel.
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u387/spotty3/Contradiction.jpg

Time to buy some glasses, Slick.

The distance between Sidious and Vader may appear to be somewhat close in terms of the percentages Lucas assigned, but it's still sufficient enough that with Vader's oft'-overstated but present vulnerability to electrical damage that Sidious was able to mortally injure him rather quickly. (Cf. this with the amount of electrical energy Vader withstood from Starkiller in The Force Unleashed II's final battle, suggesting there exists a comparative disparity between the damage Starkiller can unleash vis a vis Sidious.)

More importantly, Vader visibly deliberates between Marek and Sidious in the first game when Sidious "learns" of Marek's existence. Starkiller assures Vader "we can destroy him together!" and Vader clearly considers this option, but ultimately decides against it. While not necessarily the case, Vader clearly had reason to believe that Sidious could triumph over his and Marek's combined might.

No one is suggesting that Sidious is "absurdly more powerful" than any other character (though he actually is compared to most): he has at least four confirmed superiors and a few more who rival him. That said, we've seen examples recently in TCW where a solo fighter can take on two or more opponents whose individual powers rival his and, depending on tactics employed and environment exploited, can perform well. Sidious, who is more powerful than either Vader or Marek, could very well win.

In most situations, assuming these two play it smart, I'd say they have a clear advantage.

Originally posted by ares834
Have a link for this source...





It can be found in The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, under Starkiller's entry.

^ I think it's on his StarWars.com profile as well.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

he has at least four confirmed superiors

4? Luke, Yoda... Perhaps Mace... Who else?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ I think it's on his StarWars.com profile as well.

It was, but not now I think.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
4? Luke, Yoda... Perhaps Mace... Who else?

None of those, actually. Abeloth & the Anchorites/Ones/Force-Wielders.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
None of those, actually. Abeloth & the Anchorites/Ones/Force-Wielders.
Just for the sake of it, I'm gonna point out that Luke might very well be superior to DE Sids....

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Just for the sake of it, I'm gonna point out that Luke might very well be superior to DE Sids....

Lol DE Sids will probably be eradicated from continuity in the next few years. Yay!

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Just for the sake of it, I'm gonna point out that Luke might very well be superior to DE Sids....

Abeloth is known to possess twelve times Luke's strength in the Force, which alone is greater than Sidious's. The Son's powers are noted by the databank to be "beyond the domain" of the Sith, which includes Sidious. We can infer then that the Daughter, who was the Son's equal, is similarly beyond Sidious. Likewise, so must the Father be, since his powers were greater than either of his children until the balance began to shift.

But yeah, Luke at this point is almost certainly beyond Sidious in a fight. But there's no real confirmation of that.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Abeloth is known to possess twelve times Luke's strength in the Force, which alone is greater than Sidious's. The Son's powers are noted by the databank to be "beyond the domain" of the Sith, which includes Sidious. We can infer then that the Daughter, who was the Son's equal, is similarly beyond Sidious. Likewise, so must the Father be, since his powers were greater than either of his children until the balance began to shift.

But yeah, Luke at this point is almost certainly beyond Sidious in a fight. But there's no real confirmation of that.
yep

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol DE Sids will probably be eradicated from continuity in the next few years. Yay!
Damn, you're right...but let us have our fun as long as we can lol