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Restrictions: Mind Domination
Scenario: Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin board the Emperor's space station to kill the Sith Emperor.
The Emperor jumps from his throne and prepares to kill them.
Can he do it? Or does he just get Saberpwnd?

Nobody has provided feats for Vitiate not even once. Until someone does there is not much to discuss.

No mind domination.. Hmm.. Has he had sufficient time to prepare a world-sucking power attack?

Either way, I'd say he's stop everyone except Mace, due to Vaapad being a dark-side conduit back at the enemy. Then again, his lightning is pretty damn powerful.

It all depends really. Saber-wise, Mace would win. Force-wise, Vitiate wins, even without the mind control.

B team wins.

Originally posted by DarthTheDominat
Nobody has provided feats for Vitiate not even once. Until someone does there is not much to discuss.

I'm debating Arheal with Vitiate and am providing feats so I dunno what you're talking about lol.

Ah my mistake. Link to thread? I have asked a few times in the past and nobody gave reasons.

It's just a few threads down. Mara Jade vs Sith Emperor.

Team wins. Mace can solo IMO.

Originally posted by ares834
Team wins. Mace can solo IMO.

Team wins. Everyone dies but Windu and maybe Fisto.

Team takes this.

Interesting find in the ROTS Screenplay

"The full force of Palpatine's powerful Bolts blasts MACE. He attempts to deflect them with his one good hand, but the force is too great. As blue rays engulf his body, he is flung out the window and falls twenty stories to his death. No more screams. No more moans. PALPATINE lowers his arm. "
Seems like Mace may have had some skill with Tutamanis after all.

team

Vitiate can kill everyone except Windu pretty easily and imo, he can overpower Windu as well.

I think Windu defeated Sidious who is probably the most powerful Sith Lord, why would he not defeat Vitiate?

Being 'the most powerful' doesn't translate into superiority in every area. Vitiate's Force Powers (in particular his lightning) are more powerful than Sidious' in my eyes. Vitiate defeated a group of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy 'easily'. Windu may have defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel, but imo he won't get close enough to Vitiate to replicate that.

Also:

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Interesting find in the ROTS Screenplay

"The full force of Palpatine's powerful Bolts blasts MACE. He attempts to deflect them with his one good hand, but the force is too great. As blue rays engulf his body, he is flung out the window and falls twenty stories to his death. No more screams. No more moans. PALPATINE lowers his arm. "
Seems like Mace may have had some skill with Tutamanis after all.

All Jedi have some skill with Tutaminis. Its one of the first powers they're taught as initiates, before they even become padawans. Its just that most aren't good enough with it to block blaster bolts or lightning. The Jedi Path mentions blocking excessive sunlight as a basic example, for example.

Team takes this.

What's really amusing is that Ush is banning every username he doesn't recognize, thinking it's a sock. What a dumbass.


Anyways, Vitiate solos without much effort if given preparation time. Still wins with difficulty without preparation.

I didn't read the OP thoroughly, but yeah, given that Vitiate has time to prepare and that the team has to fight through his fortress to get to him (which is full of security systems, Imperial Guards and Sith) Vitiate should taken them out no problem.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate's Force Powers (in particular his lightning) are more powerful than Sidious' in my eyes.

Than ROTS Sidious or Sidious in general?

RotS. If you factor in Force Storms, DE Sidious clearly edges it out. I forget, does he show a marked improvement in other areas too?

No text to my knowledge specifically denotes marked improvement in all areas. The closest thing I can recall off the top of my head that indicates a general increase in power is that Sidious "studied in the Force to become even more powerful" between ROTJ and DE (The Ultimate Visual Guide).

Hmm, thats a bit too vague to conclude much from, so I'd still rank Vitiates lightning above his, taking out 5 of the galaxies most powerful Jedi with ease and all. TK is a toss-up.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hmm, thats a bit too vague to conclude much from, so I'd still rank Vitiates lightning above his, taking out 5 of the galaxies most powerful Jedi with ease and all. TK is a toss-up.

Meh, not buying it.

Sidious has one-shot Force users with his lightning (Empire's End) and reduced others to ash ("Resurrection"; in contrast, Vitiate only rendered people unconscious and blistered Revan's flesh.

Telekinetically, Sidious has effortlessly subdued Force users capable of hurling starships, collapsing caves, and emitting potent Force repulses, to say nothing of his dominance of Dooku, Vader, and Marek -- three telekinetics of extraordinarily high repute.

Telepathically, Sidious has enslaved billions, mindwiped , and ensnared Jedi.

In terms of destruction, Sidious is capable of destroying fleets with mere thought and inclination and razing planetary surfaces.

In the end, he definitely edges Vitiate out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also:



All Jedi have some skill with Tutaminis. Its one of the first powers they're taught as initiates, before they even become padawans. Its just that most aren't good enough with it to block blaster bolts or lightning. The Jedi Path mentions blocking excessive sunlight as a basic example, for example.

This is really cool.

Like, my mind is a little blown.

I see you still showin' the Sidious love, Tempest.

Keep it up. For like, the rest of your life.

Although, good arguments could be made for both... As made clear by both of you. Vitiate is extremely powerful, too, for your disgrace.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
I see you still showin' the Sidious love, Tempest.

Keep it up. For like, the rest of your life.

Although, good arguments could be made for both... As made clear by both of you. Vitiate is extremely powerful, too, for your disgrace.

Always. Best villain in Star Wars, which is why TOR's writers shamelessly ripped him off to create their Big Bad. I'm ambivalent: it's embarrassing that they couldn't come up with something unique for such a high-budget EU project, but it's definitely proof that Sidious is the ultimate Star Wars villain. Too bad no one cares enough about Nihilus, Ragnos, or Bane in that respect.

Vitiate is very powerful, but he's extremely underwhelming for his duration and efforts. Dude had 14 centuries and leached thousands of Sith to get where he is, and is still only Sidious's rival. Embarrassing.

So, you're saying that if Sidious had done what Vitiate has, he'd be eons above the rip-off?

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
So, you're saying that if Sidious had done what Vitiate has, he'd be eons above the rip-off?

Can't say for sure. That's how inconsistent the Force is in this mythology.

It is, isn't it?

That'a partially why we love it, though. No?

No.

I love nothing and no one.

But me. You love me.

Well, you are nothing and no one.

If that's what it take to get some of your love.

I'm trying to remember the love dialogue from ROTS, but my mind has demolished the memory.

"Padme oh Padme blah blah blah"


That should sum it up.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate overpowered guys holding their lightsabers up. If that's decisive to you vis a vis Palpatine, then Sidious gets the nod for blowing Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand.

And Yoda then blocked it with his hands. Either way, I don't rank Yoda as being more powerful than 5 of the most powerful Jedi put together, and certainly not to the extent that he is easily so.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
excellent

Drawing on a line of argumentation you raised elsewhere, telekinesis is a universal Force power. It stands to reason that Sidious, more powerful than the aforementioned trio, possesses greater telekinetic aptitude unless otherwise noted as an exception.

If you are referring to my brief discussion with Silver, I only claimed that Nihilus would possess Force Shield as a universal Force Power, not that he'd be incredible with it.

And thats a shitty argument you're making. Unless he has actual evidence that he's better, we cannot assume he is. Unless you want to go down this road of assuming all core abilities scale with power, in which case alot of your snide remarks about Vitiates lightsaber ability looks mighty dumb.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I never said it had combat application, I said Sidious's feats are better. Which they are.

Well we're talking about this in terms of combat so shush ya mouth.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
An in-universe source prone to hyperbole, to say nothing of the fact that Tol Braga is no Luke Skywalker or Starkiller, whom Sidious hypnotized each.

It isn't in-universe. And if I recall your argument for him hypnotizing Skywalker is bullshit, and he failed to hypnotize Starkiller.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Making Starkiller shit his pants would probably not have been an adequate means of securing his cooperation and allegiance in killing Kota. Besides which, Sidious has done similar with Vima Da Boda in Dark Empire II.

(Told you, there's not an original element to Vitiate.)

Oh no, he made a crazy old lady poop herself! That makes him about as scary as prunes! And big deal, if he is really Vitiates rival he could have just dominated Galens mind and not give a **** his cooperation.

That they were some of the strongest Jedi at the time isn't necessarily gamechanging when you consider that the leader (Braga) was a known pacifist.

I'm not.
Core abilities tend to scale with power, duh, the few obvious exceptions aside.
And I told you from the beginning I didn't honestly think Vitiate was a slow-poke. It was simply a snide warning that no matter what arena we take this debate: accolade to accolade or feat to feat, Palpatine's gonna win.

Your mom.

It was in-universe per Oct. 2012 issue of Star Wars Insider and the first page of the book itself (which I told you back in October 2012).
It's not bullshit. He beat Luke into submission and psychically coerced him into the dark side. And he did hypnotize Galen, it was broken. If being broken means it never succeeded to begin with, then Vitiate has never hypnotized/enthralled anyone either.

And I'm supposed to be impressed with Scourge, whose only feat at the time was getting his ass kicked by... a crazy old lady? Puh-leaase.

You keep using Sidious' drain as an example here. If we're talking about which drain was more impressive, it was undoubtedly Vitiate's.

Originally posted by GMichael2019
You keep using Sidious' drain as an example here. If we're talking about which drain was more impressive, it was undoubtedly Vitiate's.

Vitiate had help from hundreds/thousands of Sith Lords; Papa Palpatine leeched billions unaided.

Over 20 years.

Source?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate had help from hundreds/thousands of Sith Lords; Papa Palpatine leeched billions unaided.

Had help? They sacrificed themselves (2 sources) or he mind wiped them (1 source). Either way, I fail to see how this makes his feat any less impressive than Sidious slowly draining the inhabitants of Byss, without any real understanding of how it's affecting them. Vitiate achieved his feat within a week.

Originally posted by GMichael2019
Had help? They sacrificed themselves (2 sources) or he mind wiped them (1 source). Either way, I fail to see how this makes his feat any less impressive than Sidious slowly draining the inhabitants of Byss, without any real understanding of how it's affecting them. Vitiate achieved his feat within a week.

That his victims voluntarily cooperated with the ritual makes it less impressive, whereas Sidious conquered his victims by telepathic force. And there were exponentially more.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That his victims voluntarily cooperated with the ritual makes it less impressive, whereas Sidious conquered his victims by telepathic force. And there were exponentially more.

Allegedly 8000 cooperated. "Conquered by telepathic force" seems less impressive when you don't really know the outcome of the drains since most inhabitants lived their lives regardless. And as for as exponentially more, you'd need to prove Byss had more inhabitants than Nathema.

Originally posted by GMichael2019
Allegedly 8000 cooperated.

The greater number of sources indicate as much, so it's the one I'm going with.

Originally posted by GMichael2019
"Conquered by telepathic force" seems less impressive when you don't really know the outcome of the drains since most inhabitants lived their lives regardless.

No one said he tried to leech them all in one fell swoop. Book of Sith indicates he was using Byss's inhabitants to supply an energy pool for dark side alchemical experiments. Using it economically would probably be the way to go.

And it is impressive when you consider he telepathically subjugated twenty billion people. That's unrivaled in the franchise.

Originally posted by GMichael2019
And as for as exponentially more, you'd need to prove Byss had more inhabitants than Nathema.

Per Revan, Nathema was alleged to have had "millions" of citizens during Vitiate's ritual.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That they were some of the strongest Jedi at the time isn't necessarily gamechanging when you consider that the leader (Braga) was a known pacifist.

Being a pacifist doesn't make you weak. Braga was plenty strong, fighting a Dark Council Member for days, giving the HoT a tough fight right before she beat Vitiate, breaking Vitiates mind control. He's way stronger than the garbage Sidious beat. And Vitiate handled him, plus the Hero of Tython and 3 others with ease. Just admit that Vitiates lightning is better than Sidious'.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not.
Core abilities tend to scale with power, duh, the few obvious exceptions aside.
And I told you from the beginning I didn't honestly think Vitiate was a slow-poke. It was simply a snide warning that no matter what arena we take this debate: accolade to accolade or feat to feat, Palpatine's gonna win.

They 'tend' to, but remember that 'Only through intense study and dedicated training could one become more proficient in harnessing the power of the Force.' You can't just take it as read that being powerful means superior abilities all round. Sidious needs actual feats to show that he's better than those characters in TK, otherwise your point is meaningless speculation supported by ****all.

I know you don't, but nor would you argue that he'd beat Dooku in a lightsaber duel just because he's more powerful than him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It was in-universe per Oct. 2012 issue of Star Wars Insider and the first page of the book itself (which I told you back in October 2012).

I believe you're referring to the Swtor Encylopedia, not the in-game codex. If however you do have something indicating the later in-universe, post it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's not bullshit. He beat Luke into submission and psychically coerced him into the dark side.

Proof? As I recall you just hear Luke cry out, which proves nothing, but you claimed was him being dominated. Anyway, a Luke beaten into submission is hardly a good feat.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And he did hypnotize Galen, it was broken. If being broken means it never succeeded to begin with, then Vitiate has never hypnotized/enthralled anyone either.

Galen never did what Palpatine was attempting to get him to do. He didn't successfully hypnotize him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And I'm supposed to be impressed with Scourge, whose only feat at the time was getting his ass kicked by... a crazy old lady? Puh-leaase.

He was still a powerful Sith Lord at the time. He seriously mind****ed a powerful Force user with the power of a mere brush of his mind.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate had help from hundreds/thousands of Sith Lords; Papa Palpatine leeched billions unaided.
Vitiate siphoned energies of countless individuals/souls unaided after his first transformation. Get your facts straight.

As far as this contest is concerned;

Vitiate demolishes (very neutral POV); Mace is the only individual expected to resist for a while but even he cannot last long against this kind of foe who is packed with mysteries and Sith sorcery based talents.

Until or unless, Vitiate is vulnerable in some way or other, he is unlikely to be overwhelmed in direct engagements. The exceptions would be few entities but Vitiate might give them hell of a fight as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Being 'the most powerful' doesn't translate into superiority in every area. Vitiate's Force Powers (in particular his lightning) are more powerful than Sidious' in my eyes. Vitiate defeated a group of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy 'easily'. Windu may have defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel, but imo he won't get close enough to Vitiate to replicate that.

The problem is that, in the context of this fight, Vitiate's Force powers aren't going to do much to help him.

Forgive me if TOR sheds more light on the Emperor's combat abilities that I don't know of, but from the Revan novel, there is nothing to suggest that he is proficient with, or even owns a lightsaber. Indeed, his combat experience seems to be crap, given that the Exile knocks his lightsaber out of his hand with a simple saber throw, with Scourge musing that she could have killed him with a body blow, and Vitiate only barely detects and shields himself from a droid's flamethrower.

It seems that the Emperor is so used to simply overpowering any challengers outright (on a dark side nexus, mind you), that he never bothered to hone his reflexes and combat skills.

Against the "B team", he can't possibly zap them all with lightning, and he hasn't demonstrated any feats to suggest that he could replicate Palpatine's speed blitz.

-------

And this is even assuming that he is > RotS Sidious in Force abilities, which is quite a bit of a stretch. When you take away mind domination and his Force rituals, and consider that most of his feats are performed in a powerful DS nexus, he doesn't really match Palpatine's "deceive the entire Jedi Order" capabilities.

Master Han I Do Agree The Maul Bros Will Die Ultra Easy Against Mace Windu That Funny.

Originally posted by Nephthys

He one-shot losers like Brand and Rayf Ysanna, while Vitiate easily whooped 5 of the most powerful Jedi at the time. He reduced those acolytes to ash from behind, so big deal. Your contrast is dumb, like me saying that Malgus > Sidious because he's killed people with TK while Sidious has only subdued them. Vitiate has overpowered multiple powerful opponents who are actively resisting him. His lightning is superior.


You forget that, even when his back is turned, Palpatine's lightning in RotJ is fatal to Vader, despite the latter's tanking Galen Marek's lightning in both TFU installments. You know, the same lightning that he uses to crush AT-STs.

Also, Vitiate's lightning ownage feats, IIRC, occur on dark side nexuses, and always (again, IIRC) occur when he has convenient prep time to charge and harness his energies.



Mind domination isn't allowed per the OP, and even if it were, there is nothing to suggest that Vitiate has the power to dominate Mace Windu and his superconducting loop. The Revan novel suggests that Vitiate is vulnerable when he's trying to mind-rape; while he attempts this on the less powerful members of the arrest squad, Windu or possibly Kit Fisto could lunge in and chop his head off.



Note that Revan and Malak were already on the precipice of the dark side, and a redeemed Revan was able to resist the emperor mental powers, first in the midst of combat, and then later for three centuries while being held in stasis.

And Windu >= Revan.



Starkiller >>>> Scourge, who at that point lost to a no-name Nyriss, who was then one shotted by Revan into a heap of ash.

Granted, it's difficult to deny that the Sith Emperor possesses superior combat applicable mental domination powers to Palpatine. He is not, however, even remotely comparable in overall combat or saber prowess, and thus gets diced into multiple pieces.

To restate myself, Vitiate's combat performance in Revan is quite abysmal. He almost dies to Meetra's saber throw, only her instinctive protecting of Revan saving his life, and he almost fails to detect the droid's flamethrower. He relies on his raw Force powers, but against some of the most powerful Jedi in the mythos, and possibly the most potent vs. dark siders short of Luke Skywalker, yeah...he dies.

Sith Emperor Kill Them All & Go HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.

Originally posted by Master Han
The problem is that, in the context of this fight, Vitiate's Force powers aren't going to do much to help him.

Forgive me if TOR sheds more light on the Emperor's combat abilities that I don't know of, but from the Revan novel, there is nothing to suggest that he is proficient with, or even owns a lightsaber. Indeed, his combat experience seems to be crap, given that the Exile knocks his lightsaber out of his hand with a simple saber throw, with Scourge musing that she could have killed him with a body blow, and Vitiate only barely detects and shields himself from a droid's flamethrower.

It seems that the Emperor is so used to simply overpowering any challengers outright (on a dark side nexus, mind you), that he never bothered to hone his reflexes and combat skills.

Against the "B team", he can't possibly zap them all with lightning, and he hasn't demonstrated any feats to suggest that he could replicate Palpatine's speed blitz.

-------

And this is even assuming that he is > RotS Sidious in Force abilities, which is quite a bit of a stretch. When you take away mind domination and his Force rituals, and consider that most of his feats are performed in a powerful DS nexus, he doesn't really match Palpatine's "deceive the entire Jedi Order" capabilities.

bq5X3F3g69c

9.40

I see no reason why he won't replicate his victory. In fact, given that he gets time to prepare while they fight through his heavily fortified and well-defended space station, he should be capable of owning this team with little difficulty, as he did against Darth Lokess and the rest of the eleven Dark Council:

'During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come.'

(SWTOR Encyclopedia, Page 156)

Furthermore, its false that Vitiate doesn't know how to use a lightsaber. While possessing Kira Carsen his first instinct is to run up and attack the Hero of Tython in lightsaber combat. And his reflexes seem fine given that in all of his fights he's shown himself capable of repelling attempts to blitz him. Furthermore during Lord Renge's rebellion, Vitiate was able to disarm the former Sith Executioner and kill him with his own sword. That Meetra nearly ended him was because he was distracted and didn't even know she was there.

As for Sidious 'deceiving the Jedi Order', so did Lumiya and Caedus. Walked right up to Luke and he didn't sense a thing. Big Deal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
bq5X3F3g69c

9.40

I see no reason why he won't replicate his victory. In fact, given that he gets time to prepare while they fight through his heavily fortified and well-defended space station, he should be capable of owning this team with little difficulty, as he did against Darth Lokess and the rest of the eleven Dark Council:



It takes him several seconds to overpower the Jedi.

In that timespan, Mace Windu, who is more powerful than any of the Jedi in the scene, could lunge in and decapitate him.



That doesn't really mean that he engages them all in a fair fight and defeats them using his raw abilities. He could have easily rigged a thermal detonator.

Furthermore, isn't it a rather telling indication of Vitiate's limited mind domination capabilities in that he doesn't bother to just mind control his council? Or that he couldn't see through Scourge's deception after 3 centuries? Or that he is manipulated by Revan in stasis, and can't dominate his mind for the three hundred years he has him as a prisoner?

It's not relevant to this thread, but he isn't mind dominating Windu.




I didn't know of these feats, but none of them suggest that he's a match for vaapad+shatterpoint Mace Windu. He seemed to try to avoid matching Revan with a blade, suggesting that he, knowing his former servant's capabilities, considered the possibility that he was outmatched.

Remember that Sidious is still canonically the most powerful sith lord of all time, presumably in overall combat ability, since you're arguing that Vitiate is stronger than him in the Force.





It's not just deceiving; he also literally clouded all of their minds and perceptions. Indeed, the RotS novelization suggests that he can lift the "shroud of the dark side" at will.

Originally posted by Master Han
Furthermore, isn't it a rather telling indication of Vitiate's limited mind domination capabilities in that he doesn't bother to just mind control his council?

It's not just deceiving; he also literally clouded all of their minds and perceptions. Indeed, the RotS novelization suggests that he can lift the "shroud of the dark side" at will.

A knock down point I think. Mace, clearly wins.

Originally posted by Master Han
You forget that, even when his back is turned, Palpatine's lightning in RotJ is fatal to Vader, despite the latter's tanking Galen Marek's lightning in both TFU installments. You know, the same lightning that he uses to crush AT-STs.

Also, Vitiate's lightning ownage feats, IIRC, occur on dark side nexuses, and always (again, IIRC) occur when he has convenient prep time to charge and harness his energies.

Vader's lightning was insulated from lightning in those games. In TFU2 novel its revealed that Starkiller is able to down Vader by attacking him with lightning through a breach in his suit. When Palpatine down Vader in RotJ, his suit is likewise compromised.

The above video of Vitiate defeating what two separate sources confirm to be a team of 5 the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy (and another quote mentions that he defeated them all easily) did not take place upon a darkside nexus, but upon Vitiates space station, which is where this thread takes place.

Originally posted by Master Han
Mind domination isn't allowed per the OP, and even if it were, there is nothing to suggest that Vitiate has the power to dominate Mace Windu and his superconducting loop. The Revan novel suggests that Vitiate is vulnerable when he's trying to mind-rape; while he attempts this on the less powerful members of the arrest squad, Windu or possibly Kit Fisto could lunge in and chop his head off.

I'm well aware. Tempest and I are not actually discussing this thread, but are once against comparing Sidious and Vitiates respective abilities.

Also Vitiate was only vulnerable because Revan knew how to resist him. Earlier in the book Scourge was reduced to a quivering heap upon mere contact with Vitiates mind. If he uses it on this team, he'll use it on all of them because he isn't dumb enough to leave himself vulnerable, and they will all be incapacitated in a similar manner.

But as you said, its not allowed in this thread so this is an irrelevant discussion.

Originally posted by Master Han
Note that Revan and Malak were already on the precipice of the dark side, and a redeemed Revan was able to resist the emperor mental powers, first in the midst of combat, and then later for three centuries while being held in stasis.

And Windu >= Revan.

Revan stated that he knew how to resist Vitiates mental domination because he's already experienced it. Windu has no such experience, and no feats of mental resistance at all.

Originally posted by Master Han
Starkiller >>>> Scourge, who at that point lost to a no-name Nyriss, who was then one shotted by Revan into a heap of ash.

True.

Originally posted by Master Han
Granted, it's difficult to deny that the Sith Emperor possesses superior combat applicable mental domination powers to Palpatine. He is not, however, even remotely comparable in overall combat or saber prowess, and thus gets diced into multiple pieces.

I've never claimed that he was comparable in lightsaber combat. I do however think that his above ownage of a team of the most powerful Jedi in seconds with ease suggests a comparable combat prowess. What Sidious did with the lightsaber, Vitiate more or less replicated with the Force. Except that he didn't get his ass kicked of course.

Originally posted by Master Han
To restate myself, Vitiate's combat performance in Revan is quite abysmal. He almost dies to Meetra's saber throw, only her instinctive protecting of Revan saving his life, and he almost fails to detect the droid's flamethrower. He relies on his raw Force powers, but against some of the most powerful Jedi in the mythos, and possibly the most potent vs. dark siders short of Luke Skywalker, yeah...he dies.

Nah.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader's lightning was insulated from lightning in those games. In TFU2 novel its revealed that Starkiller is able to down Vader by attacking him with lightning through a breach in his suit. When Palpatine down Vader in RotJ, his suit is likewise compromised.


Interesting. I didn't know of that.

Still, however, while Vitiate's lightning have a powerful AoE quality to it, Darth Sidious was able to stretch a vaapad amped Windu to his limits, and against non-lightsaber-aided defenses, you need the likes of Yoda to turn it back on him.

There's nothing to suggest that Vitiate could take them all out simultaneously. Even the Jedi who confront him resist his lightning for a significant period of time, and they're vastly weaker than this arrest squad.

Also, note that even a poisoned (IIRC) Dooku was able to disarm three nightsisters with lightning. Granted, they weren't the formidable Jedi masters Vitiate faced, but I think you're overrating his feat here.





Yeah, fair enough; I have TOR game, but never actually bothered to open it.

Maybe that was a good idea, because it's free now.




And I'd argue that Vitiate exceeds Sidious in mental strength and maybe rivals him in Force lightning, but is inferior at everything else.

He's also a crap tactician, given his performance in the Revan novel.




Right, because his taking out several powerful but ultimately inferior Jedi does not equate to his being able to take out the arrest squad. While he's busy killing Kit Fisto and co., Windu decapitates him.

This especially applies if they play it smart and flank him, instead of standing clumped together and talking trash.

Originally posted by Master Han
It takes him several seconds to overpower the Jedi.

In that timespan, Mace Windu, who is more powerful than any of the Jedi in the scene, could lunge in and decapitate him.

While defending himself from the Lightning Storm?

Furthermore, Vitiate beat those Jedi 'easily'. If he unleashed his full power on the B team, after they'd already fought through the space station, he would annihilate most of them and eventually overpower Windu.

Originally posted by Master Han
That doesn't really mean that he engages them all in a fair fight and defeats them using his raw abilities. He could have easily rigged a thermal detonator.



Yes, Vitiate took out the entire Dark Council... with a thermal detonator. That's.... plausible.

Of course he doesn't beat them in a fair fight. He annihilates them from inside his citadel. I wasn't arguing about a fair fight.

Originally posted by Master Han
Furthermore, isn't it a rather telling indication of Vitiate's limited mind domination capabilities in that he doesn't bother to just mind control his council? Or that he couldn't see through Scourge's deception after 3 centuries? Or that he is manipulated by Revan in stasis, and can't dominate his mind for the three hundred years he has him as a prisoner?

It's not relevant to this thread, but he isn't mind dominating Windu.

I'm not sure why you're talking about mental domination here. He didn't do that because he wanted to send a message.


Originally posted by Master Han
I didn't know of these feats, but none of them suggest that he's a match for vaapad+shatterpoint Mace Windu. He seemed to try to avoid matching Revan with a blade, suggesting that he, knowing his former servant's capabilities, considered the possibility that he was outmatched.

Remember that Sidious is still canonically the most powerful sith lord of all time, presumably in overall combat ability, since you're arguing that Vitiate is stronger than him in the Force.

I didn't say he was. I have openly admitted that Vitiate has lackluster lightsaber feats. I was just responding to your suggestion that Vitiate isn't even proficient with a lightsaber. He clearly is. Against the Hero of Tython, he even shows off by doing a fancy lightsaber twirl!

Interesting. I thought you were Nebaris, but this paragraph suggests differently. And I'm not arguing that he's stronger in the Force, just that he is more focused on Force Powers and thus more proficient and devastating with them.

Originally posted by Master Han
It's not just deceiving; he also literally clouded all of their minds and perceptions. Indeed, the RotS novelization suggests that he can lift the "shroud of the dark side" at will.

This was also done by the First Son of the Emperor's Children, a being imbued with but a portion of the Sith Emperor's might. He was able to shield hundreds of the Emperor's Children from Jedi detection and cloud their senses.

Originally posted by Nephthys
While defending himself from the Lightning Storm?

Furthermore, Vitiate beat those Jedi 'easily'. If he unleashed his full power on the B team, after they'd already fought through the space station, he would annihilate most of them and eventually overpower Windu.


That's speculation. Windu turned back Sidious's focused lightning at point blank range and scarred his face.



The point is that he mysteriously kills them when nobody is looking doesn't mean that he got in front of them and said "ROFL look at me, Imma kill you all now", and that they said "lol no, we're sith, so we're going to work perfectly as a team and attack you all with perfect coordination", and then he dices them up.

He was in his fortress; he had numerous resources beyond his own raw power.

So I don't see how we can quantity the feat.




I meant in general; he never bothers to mind control the council, or even Scourge.



OK, fair enough.

He still loses to Windu in a duel, though. Again, he has to have massively greater lightning than Palpatine to overpower all the Jedi at once, when Sidious couldn't even off Windu at point blank range.



But not to the extent that he can take them all out before they close the distance.



Interesting. Again, I'm not very up to date with TOR stuff.

Originally posted by Master Han
Interesting. I didn't know of that.

Still, however, while Vitiate's lightning have a powerful AoE quality to it, Darth Sidious was able to stretch a vaapad amped Windu to his limits, and against non-lightsaber-aided defenses, you need the likes of Yoda to turn it back on him.

And Vitiate's lightning, being stronger, will overpower Windu. Remember that Vitiates lightning was described as 'infinitely more powerful' than Nyriss' own lightning, which was able to tear through her own Force Shield (you can say her lightning was amped by the nexus, but her shield would also have been amped, thus cancelling out the amp) and disintegrate her. Vitiates lightning is the most powerful in the Star Wars mythos.

Originally posted by Master Han
There's nothing to suggest that Vitiate could take them all out simultaneously. Even the Jedi who confront him resist his lightning for a significant period of time, and they're vastly weaker than this arrest squad.

They're not vastly weaker. As per the Swtor Encyclopedia and the Jedi Knight Act II screen from Swtor, the strike team that confronts the Emperor is made up of 'the strongest', 'most powerful and resolute Jedi in the galaxy'.

And he beat all of them at the same time easily.

Originally posted by Master Han
Also, note that even a poisoned (IIRC) Dooku was able to disarm three nightsisters with lightning. Granted, they weren't the formidable Jedi masters Vitiate faced, but I think you're overrating his feat here.

I don't. Overpowering 5 of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at once is a hugely impressive feat. Dooku doing likewise with those Nightsisters (in desperation), is also a good feat and is rightly brought up as such.


Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, fair enough; I have TOR game, but never actually bothered to open it.

Maybe that was a good idea, because it's free now.

You should at least spend some money on the game, to bump you up from being a Free-player. The restrictions otherwise are tyrannical.


Originally posted by Master Han
And I'd argue that Vitiate exceeds Sidious in mental strength and maybe rivals him in Force lightning, but is inferior at everything else.

He's also a crap tactician, given his performance in the Revan novel.

He also destroy a huge temple with his TK in Swtor despite being weakened, exhausted after fighting the HoT and practically cut in half. I'd say he's comparable in TK.

Originally posted by Master Han
Right, because his taking out several powerful but ultimately inferior Jedi does not equate to his being able to take out the arrest squad. While he's busy killing Kit Fisto and co., Windu decapitates him.

This especially applies if they play it smart and flank him, instead of standing clumped together and talking trash.

Except it does. Why would he not attack Windu at the same time as the rest of the B Team?

They can't really flank him. Look at that video again. Theres only a single walkway leading to his chair. They have to come at him from the front. Right into the lightning.

OK, so Palpatine, focusing all of his energy on Windu, can't overpower him.

...so, for Vitiate to be able to overpower Windu while simultaneously killing off all the other Jedi would require him to be massively more powerful than Palpatine in the Force.

I think you're assuming that his Force "storm" is more powerful than conventional lightning, rather than being more dispersed.

There's a reason why Palpatine doesn't lead the fight with Force lightning; he's in close proximity to four masters, and it only takes one to chop his head off.

I don't think he could overpower Windu while taking out the others. I think he'll attack them all at once as he did in the Act 2 video, destroy the rest of the B Team while holding Windu off, then focus his power and overwhelm Windu.

Or he'll just make them all die in a flash of light.

Vitiate won't be in close proximity though, remember. They have to approach him in his big ass throne room.

Nepthys Wat Up My Loyal Henchmen.

Originally posted by Banjo Broski
Nepthys Wat Up My Loyal Henchmen.

You collect sidekicks on here, is that it?

I just skimmed over your video, but at 9:56, it looks like one of the Jedi manages to advance against his lightning.

Remember that Windu turned Palpatine's concentrated attack back on him and disfigured his face, so it's not like Vitiate can attack them all at once without suffering any retaliation. Likely, he can off the rest of the B team, but by that point, Windu is already within striking distance.

Or, I could get rid of PIS, and argue that Windu replicates Qui Gon/Obi Wan's onetime Force invisibility-speed feat.

Originally posted by Master Han
That's speculation. Windu turned back Sidious's focused lightning at point blank range and scarred his face.

Its not speculation, its an extrapolation from the facts. If Vitiate is powerful enough to defeat 5 of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at once while holding back, he should be more than capable of annihilating the B Team when they're already weary from fighting through his heavily defended space station, while he gets time to prepare and gather his power.

Originally posted by Master Han
The point is that he mysteriously kills them when nobody is looking doesn't mean that he got in front of them and said "ROFL look at me, Imma kill you all now", and that they said "lol no, we're sith, so we're going to work perfectly as a team and attack you all with perfect coordination", and then he dices them up.

He was in his fortress; he had numerous resources beyond his own raw power.

So I don't see how we can quantity the feat.

They were destroyed on the steps of the Imperial Citadel, which is right in the middle of Kaas City, so I doubt no-one was looking. And he didn't dice them up, he killed 11 Dark Council members at once in a flash of light on the Citadel steps.

And since this thread also takes place on his fortress he should have those same resources, right? Lol, I'm kidding. This threads on his actual Fortress, which is a space station, you know, in space, and he took out Darth Lokess and co in Kaas City.

We can quantify it by saying that if Vitiate has time to prepare, as he did against Lokess and co, he'll ****ing annihilate anyone.

Originally posted by Master Han
I meant in general; he never bothers to mind control the council, or even Scourge.

He doesn't need to. They're already serving him. An army of mind slaves is only appealing to gay british wankers possessed by egyptian artifacts anyway.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, fair enough.

He still loses to Windu in a duel, though.

Yes.

Originally posted by Master Han
But not to the extent that he can take them all out before they close the distance.

Yes, to that extent.

Originally posted by Master Han
I just skimmed over your video, but at 9:56, it looks like one of the Jedi manages to advance against his lightning.

Yes, thats Tol Braga.

Firstly, I don't think the OP's intent is for us to have the B team also fight through Vitiate's defenses.

Secondly, if Windu alone can **** up Palpatine's face, how is Vitiate going to "hold off" Windu and fire at the B team without the same happening to himself?

Thirdly, I think it's safe to conclude that Windu >>> Tol Braga.

As per the OP:

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Restrictions: Mind Domination
Scenario: Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin board the Emperor's space station to kill the Sith Emperor.
The Emperor jumps from his throne and prepares to kill them.
Can he do it? Or does he just get Saberpwnd?

They board his space station to kill him. However, there are numerous defenses between the hangers and Vitiates throne.

It also explicitly says that Vitiate is preparing for them.

The same way he did in the video. Lightning Storm to hold them off, then concentrated burst of lightning to wtfpwn them.

I'm not so sure that Windu is that far above Tol Braga. Tol Braga was able to duel a Dark Council Member (the most powerful Sith in the Empire) for several days straight before converting him. He was also able to throw off Vitiates mind-control by himself when not even the Hero of Tython, Revan or Malak were able to. Lastly he is shown giving the Hero of Tython a good fight and getting hits on him/her right before the Hero goes and defeats Vitiate. Not even Vitiate is shown doing that well (although he's obviously well above Tol Braga). Theres sufficient evidence that Braga is a Beast.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They board his space station to kill him. However, there are numerous defenses between the hangers and Vitiates throne.

It also explicitly says that Vitiate is preparing for them.


Fair enough, but Palpatine also had plenty of time to prepare for the arrest squad.



1. Prove that he can hold off Windu with the storm, when Braga was able to approach him, and when Windu himself has the whole "turn lightning back on your face" superconducting loop.

2. Prove that he can "wtfpwn" Windu with lightning, when Palpatine at point blank range could not.

Remember that Palpatine's lightning attempt seemed to weaken him more than it weakened Windu, even if he was partially faking it.




Oh, Braga is certainly very powerful, and perhaps I was exaggerating the amount of ">"'s, but there's nothing to suggest that he's above Windu + vaapad + shatterpoint when it comes to facing dark siders.

Originally posted by Master Han
1. Prove that he can hold off Windu with the storm, when Braga was able to approach him, and when Windu himself has the whole "turn lightning back on your face" superconducting loop.

2. Prove that he can "wtfpwn" Windu with lightning, when Palpatine at point blank range could not.

Remember that Palpatine's lightning attempt seemed to weaken him more than it weakened Windu, even if he was partially faking it.

1. Braga was able to approach him after about 10 seconds of resisting the lightning. Mace will undoubtably try the same thing, but like Braga he won't get close enough before Vitiate follows through. Remember that this Vitiate isn't holding back like he was against Braga and co. as well. Plus Mace will be tired. Plus Vitiate has time to prepare and gather his power. Also since Lightning Storm comes from the ceiling, I doubt it would reflect at Vitiate.

2. Vitiates lightning is more powerful than Sidious'. awepedo

Originally posted by Master Han
Oh, Braga is certainly very powerful, and perhaps I was exaggerating the amount of ">"'s, but there's nothing to suggest that he's above Windu + vaapad + shatterpoint when it comes to facing dark siders.

I didn't say he was, and have said that Windu is the biggest threat, above Tol Braga. I just think that with Vitiates advantages and if he unleashes his full power against him, Windu will be defeated.

Originally posted by Nephthys
1. Braga was able to approach him after about 10 seconds of resisting the lightning.

...using his own power.

Windu's vaapad will draw upon the Emperor's strength in the dark side .



Proof he was holding back?



Hence why I pointed out that I don't think the point is to debate over how formidable Vitiate's fortress's defenses are, and how much they will tire the team out.



IIRC, the superconducting loop has more to do with channeling dark side energies than any physical reflection.



Uh, yeah, except that Windu's vaapad will draw on Vitiate's own power.

Granted, vaapad was stretched to its limit by RotS Sidious, but at the least, you have Windu drawing enough power to match Sidious here.

I just don't see the Emperor beating Windu back.




For this to work, Vitiate will have to be significantly more powerful than Palpatine when it comes to Force lightning.

Originally posted by Master Han
...using his own power.

Windu's vaapad will draw upon the Emperor's strength in the dark side.

So?

Originally posted by Master Han
Proof he was holding back?

He defeated them 'with ease'. Which indicates that he doesn't need to unleash his full power against them to defeat them. The fact that he allows Braga to move forward by itself indicates that he was holding back.

Originally posted by Master Han
Hence why I pointed out that I don't think the point is to debate over how formidable Vitiate's fortress's defenses are, and how much they will tire the team out.

Oh well, they have to fight through them anyway.

Originally posted by Master Han
IIRC, the superconducting loop has more to do with channeling dark side energies than any physical reflection.

And the darkside energies are coming from the ceiling. Force Lightning is still a physical attack and needs to be reflected in a physical manner.

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, yeah, except that Windu's vaapad will draw on Vitiate's own power.

Granted, vaapad was stretched to its limit by RotS Sidious, but at the least, you have Windu drawing enough power to match Sidious here.

I just don't see the Emperor beating Windu back.

Exactly. Vaapad was pushed to its limit by Sidious. Therefore Vitiates more powerful lightning will push it past its limit.

Originally posted by Master Han
For this to work, Vitiate will have to be significantly more powerful than Palpatine when it comes to Force lightning.

Not really? Just a bit more should do it.

Originally posted by Nephthys Banjo Broskis Loyal Servant
Sith emperor win & that a fact

I Do Agree My Loyal Servant.

Yessssssss.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yessssssss.

Nephthys You Are A Good Friend To Me On These Forums.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/11294369060eb432b10f52594fe1653f/tumblr_mmb1hklMJd1r93xiko1_500.gif

lol

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://31.media.tumblr.com/11294369060eb432b10f52594fe1653f/tumblr_mmb1hklMJd1r93xiko1_500.gif

Nephthys I Am Not Sure I Understand But You Consider Me A Good Friend & A Good User Who Is Right On Starwars & That I Am Cool Right Buddy & Im Not A Ultra Noob Right.

Nephthys, I will destroy your pathetic, cringe worthy pile of useless shit when I'm done doing other stuff.

Gosh, I'm so popular today.

Originally posted by Mental Master Han
Nephthys, I will destroy your pathetic, cringe worthy pile of useless shit when I'm done doing other stuff.

Mental Master Han Back Off.

His lightning isn't strong enough to contort a lightsaber blade despite being on an immensely strong nexus vs lightsiders

Neither was Sidious'.

Nephthys You Never Did Respond To My Question.

I don't see any questions.

Vitiate wins.

Originally posted by Banjo Broski
Nephthys I Am Not Sure I Understand But You Consider Me A Good Friend & A Good User Who Is Right On Starwars & That I Am Cool Right Buddy & Im Not A Ultra Noob Right.

I don't understand you either...

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
His lightning isn't strong enough to contort a lightsaber blade despite being on an immensely strong nexus vs lightsiders He attacked Mace with so much power that it literally bent the blade so close to his face.

"Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
...
Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

The idea there was that his wrist was being forced to allow the blade to approach his face; presuming that the light saber blade containment field actually contorted would clash with the film (G canon) and this invalidate the novel. We didn't see a spaghetti noodle lightsaber so you must be mistaken in your interpretation of the reading.

^ Exactly.

His blade doesn't bend in the movie. However, as I've argued his blade wasn't forced back towards his face in the movie either. He was in fact forcing his blade forward to the point that he was leaning over Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So?


So, Vitiate's own dark side energies simply make Mace Windu stronger...



Um, he defeats them 'with ease' relatively rapidly. There's nothing to prove that he did so while holding back, instead of going all out, with that being why he defeats them with ease. Do you get what I mean?




Right, which reduces Mace Windu's fighting capacity by 5%, and decreases his saving throw modifier by 1...



OK, a few problems here.

1. You're still assuming that Vitiate's lightning > Sidious's.
2. I may have misspoken; it may have been Sidious's overall DS powers that push Vaapad to its limits, in which case Windu will still be able to match Vitiate's power.
3. Even if Vitiate can somehow overcome Windu's vaapad, he's still going to have X% (Sidious's power) of Vitiate's lightning, in addition to his own strength in the Force.
4. Evenly matched Force users typically cannot overpower the other's lightsaber defenses with lightning in a prepared confrontation, given that Palpatine only stalemated/lost to a bare handed Yoda.

So your contention is essentially that Vitiate will be able to kill the B team while holding off Windu with a Force "storm" (even though the concentration of his lightning will be lesser by an order of magnitude), and then have the energy to overwhelm a vaapad-boosted Windu with a more concentrated burst.

I just don't see this happening. Vitiate's lightning would have to be enormously more powerful to hold back Windu while being dispersed over a distance of several square meters.



No, because Vitiate has to kill off Windu and the B team using two successive attack, and Windu was defeating Sidious's lightning and turning it back on his face.

Notice that Sidious is more drained after the attack than Windu.

What now? Which "dark side energies"? The ones that would mentally incapacitate Windu? The miniature force storm he can create that will blast Windu? So many options.

Originally posted by Master Han
So, Vitiate's own dark side energies simply make Mace Windu stronger...

Indeed.

.....????

Originally posted by Master Han
Um, he defeats them 'with ease' relatively rapidly. There's nothing to prove that he did so while holding back, instead of going all out, with that being why he defeats them with ease. Do you get what I mean?

I get what you mean. I guess my point is that he defeated them so easily that he still could have defeated them even if he was holding back. So his power would naturally be in great excess of what it takes to overpower those 5 highly powerful Jedi. Therefore if he concentrates all of his power on Windu and friends, he should still be able to defeat them even if he can't do it with ease. Even if they were all twice as powerful as the Strike Team, he'd still be able to defeat them.

If we look at it in terms of numbers:

Vitiate is a 10.

The Strike Team was made up of 1's. Even with all of them together, Vitiate is still twice as powerful as them as them and can overpower them.

So even if Windu was a 5 by himself (which he isn't), he and his team still would be below Vitiate.


Also my point was that Vitiate allowed Tol Braga and co to resist his power momentarily and move forward before beating them. Considering he can beat them so easily, this indicates that he was holding back, or else Braga would not be able to do that.

Originally posted by Master Han
Right, which reduces Mace Windu's fighting capacity by 5%, and decreases his saving throw modifier by 1...

Which makes them tired and possibly wounded.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, a few problems here.

1. You're still assuming that Vitiate's lightning > Sidious's.
2. I may have misspoken; it may have been Sidious's overall DS powers that push Vaapad to its limits, in which case Windu will still be able to match Vitiate's power.
3. Even if Vitiate can somehow overcome Windu's vaapad, he's still going to have X% (Sidious's power) of Vitiate's lightning, in addition to his own strength in the Force.
4. Evenly matched Force users typically cannot overpower the other's lightsaber defenses with lightning in a prepared confrontation, given that Palpatine only stalemated/lost to a bare handed Yoda.

So your contention is essentially that Vitiate will be able to kill the B team while holding off Windu with a Force "storm" (even though the concentration of his lightning will be lesser by an order of magnitude), and then have the energy to overwhelm a vaapad-boosted Windu with a more concentrated burst.

I just don't see this happening. Vitiate's lightning would have to be enormously more powerful to hold back Windu while being dispersed over a distance of several square meters.

1. I'm not assuming anything, simply going by what I'm confident I've already proven.
2. It wasn't. It was his lightning.
3. I don't even know what you're talking about here. But while we're on the subject, remember that Vitiate can also draw on Revan's power.
4. Except Palpatine pushed Windu to his limit. Plus Windu and Vitiate are not evenly matched. Windu can only compete because of Vaapad, which will be pushed passed its limits.

No, it just needs to be potent enough to make Windu stop his charge. Even if it isn't, Vitiate can still push him back with Force lightning while continuing the Lightning Storm, as he did against the Hero of Tython.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, because Vitiate has to kill off Windu and the B team using two successive attack, and Windu was defeating Sidious's lightning and turning it back on his face.

Notice that Sidious is more drained after the attack than Windu.

And again, thats achievable with only being slightly better than Sidious in regards to lightning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I get what you mean. I guess my point is that he defeated them so easily that he still could have defeated them even if he was holding back. So his power would naturally be in great excess of what it takes to overpower those 5 highly powerful Jedi. Therefore if he concentrates all of his power on Windu and friends, he should still be able to defeat them even if he can't do it with ease. Even if they were all twice as powerful as the Strike Team, he'd still be able to defeat them.

If we look at it in terms of numbers:

Vitiate is a 10.

The Strike Team was made up of 1's. Even with all of them together, Vitiate is still twice as powerful as them as them and can overpower them.

So even if Windu was a 5 by himself (which he isn't), he and his team still would be below Vitiate.



Why would Windu be a 5, when he can draw on Vitiate's own dark side energy?

Would he not be equal to Vitiate?

And if Vitiate > Sidious, would he not be at least equal to Sidious, since that's as far as his vaapad will boost him?

Do you think Vitiate is twice as powerful as Sidious now? Because that's how your math will have to work out.

Again, your argument rests on Vitiate's being vastly more powerful than Palpatine.



How do you know he was holding back?

Defeat with ease =/= holding back. The Patriots crushed the Titans in that one ridiculous snow bowl victory the year in '09, but they certainly weren't holding back.



No, it's not, because Vitiate is dispersing his lightning across several square meters, assuming that the Jedi act like morons and clump closely together, whilst Sidious blasted Windu with all his might at point blank range.

Originally posted by Master Han
Why would Windu be a 5, when he can draw on Vitiate's own dark side energy?

Would he not be equal to Vitiate?

And if Vitiate > Sidious, would he not be at least equal to Sidious, since that's as far as his vaapad will boost him?

Do you think Vitiate is twice as powerful as Sidious now? Because that's how your math will have to work out.

Again, your argument rests on Vitiate's being vastly more powerful than Palpatine.

I meant in respect to their own powers.

But okay, whatever, but the others are still only measly 1's who Vitiate will crush easily. Then he will overpower Windu.

Originally posted by Master Han
How do you know he was holding back?

Defeat with ease =/= holding back. The Patriots crushed the Titans in that one ridiculous snow bowl victory the year in '09, but they certainly weren't holding back.

Because of what I just said. I don't know he was holding back, I'm deducing it and arguing that it was the case.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, it's not, because Vitiate is dispersing his lightning across several square meters, assuming that the Jedi act like morons and clump closely together, whilst Sidious blasted Windu with all his might at point blank range.

So what? Even if he disperses his power into an AoE, its still enough to down the rest of the B team like it was the Strike Team. And then he will focus on Windu.

@Master Han

The greatest advantage of Vitiate is that he is the most formidable Sith Sorcerer in the mythos. Sith Sorcery is a pathway to unlock most dangerous dark side abilities/powers.

Vitiate can unleash dark side energies in their purest form (Sith Sorcery based talent) and it is at this point when his powers become impossible to handle.

When Zannah unleashed dark side energies in their purest form (via her Sith Sorcery based talent), Darth Bane had no answer for such an attack. In contrast, Vitiate is a daddy of Zannah.

Do the math.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I meant in respect to their own powers.

But okay, whatever, but the others are still only measly 1's who Vitiate will crush easily. Then he will overpower Windu.


How do you know they are measly ones? Where did you get that arbitrary number? How do you know the Emperor can kill them while simultaneously holding Windu back?



No, you used circular logic to argue that since Braga was able to advance on the Emperor, Vitiate must have been holding back, rather than Braga being, you know, powerful enough to advance on him.



It's not enough to establish that his AoE is powerful enough to take down the rest of the B team. You have to establish that he can take down the rest of the B team while simultaneously holding Windu back. It takes several seconds for Vitiate to down the team in OTL, at which point Windu may be capable of advancing on him.

--------

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The greatest advantage of Vitiate is that he is the most formidable Sith Sorcerer in the mythos.

Greater than Plagieus? Greater than Palpatine?



You're insinuating that the Sith Emperor has sith sorcery that cannot be defended against (ignoring the fact that Zannah had the bonus of a DS nexus, and it was stated that she could not have used it on Bane otherwise).

Yet obviously his sorcery did not work on the Hero of Tython.

So prove it would work on Windu.

Vitiate runs into Windu's saber.

/thread

Originally posted by ares834
Vitiate runs into Windu's saber.

/thread

lol

Come to think of it, has Vitiate ever mindraped someone successfully and in a combat scenario while not on a dark side nexus?

The above quote sure indicates so.

Off topic, the whole "force people to turn to the dark side" ability sort of defies one of the central themes of SW, of choosing between good and evil.

Except that the darkside is inherently corrupting already. You don't really get to choose when its influencing your mind anyway.

Not true. Luke refuses Palpatine's words in RotJ, and he was hardly powerful at this point.

Originally posted by Master Han
Off topic, the whole "force people to turn to the dark side" ability sort of defies one of the central themes of SW, of choosing between good and evil.

Originally posted by Master Han
How do you know they are measly ones? Where did you get that arbitrary number? How do you know the Emperor can kill them while simultaneously holding Windu back?

They're no more powerful than the Strike Team that Vitiate easily pwned. In fact, there were 5 of the strike team and only 3 of the B team not counting Windu. Thats how I know he can do it.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, you used circular logic to argue that since Braga was able to advance on the Emperor, Vitiate must have been holding back, rather than Braga being, you know, powerful enough to advance on him.

Except that Vitiate easily overpowered Braga and 4 others, so thats clearly not the case. If he can overpower him and other so easily, then its logical to conclude that if Vitiate wanted, Braga wouldn't have been able to advance.

Originally posted by Master Han
It's not enough to establish that his AoE is powerful enough to take down the rest of the B team. You have to establish that he can take down the rest of the B team while simultaneously holding Windu back. It takes several seconds for Vitiate to down the team in OTL, at which point Windu may be capable of advancing on him.

And I have. Vitiate defeated the strike team 'easily', which indicates that he has more than enough power to defeat the B team with one less member to worry about.

And yeah, Windu probably will be capable of advancing. I don't think he'll advance quickly enough through a lightning storm to reach Vitiate though without Vitiate blasting him away like he did against the Hero of Tython.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They're no more powerful than the Strike Team that Vitiate easily pwned. In fact, there were 5 of the strike team and only 3 of the B team not counting Windu. Thats how I know he can do it.


They are more powerful if you include Windu. Why are you leaving out Mace?



That...doesn't make any sense. He easily overpowers them, but that doesn't mean Braga wasn't able to advance. "easily" doesn't mean "instantly and without any modicum of resistance".



But he has to do so while simultaneously holding back Windu.



The lightning storm will be dispersed across several enemies, compared to Palpatine's blasting him at point blank range.

How does the quote indicate such, Neph?

It's self explanatory that he can corrupt minds while not on terrain infused with the dark side? Highlight the relevant part because I'm not seeing it.

Theres no mention that he can only do so on nexus'. In fact, we know thats not true seeing as he corrupted the Strike Team on his fortress. It just says that hes 'the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen' and that 'His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi’s connection to the light side.'

The absence of proof is not proof of absence. Not to mention, where is the proof that the actual corruption occurred on the station?

What, you think he shipped them down to Kaas, corrupted them, then sent them right back up to the station again? Lol.

It's very possible, especially since Captain Mind HAXX shouldn't have had to attack them to begin with rather than snap his fingers and enslave them.

No it isn't. And Mr. Own Maul and Opress shouldn't have had to dirty his saber in combat ever by the same logic.

Lol how is it not possible?

That's a false equivalency. I never insinuated Sidious could mind HAXX anyone Evarrr and especially at whim.... Unlike you with Vitiate.

Its possible. It just isn't 'very' possible, its highly implausible and ridiculous. Theres no reason to believe that his telepathy only works while on a nexus either. Its a possibility. But theres nothing to suggest it and reasons to doubt it. It specifically says 'none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred.' This should logically apply in all situations, if he was on Korriban or the moon.

Neither am I. I'm merely providing the quotes. And I'm only saying that he do so 'successfully and in a combat scenario while not on a dark side nexus'.

Yeeesssssssss! excellent

Are any of those not on a dark side nexus/sith world though?

Killing his father and stripping him of his power and his mind wasn't on one, it was on Nathema.

Also on his space station.

Originally posted by Master Han
Greater than Plagieus? Greater than Palpatine?
What kind of logic is this?

Sith Sorcery is a pathway to unlock greatest of the dark side abilities; it is a pathway to accomplish the impossible.

Plagueis wished to gain expertise in this field but he couldn't acquire ancient sources to assist him in this regard.

Sidious also realized that to achieve incredible power, he have to delve in the field of Sith Sorcery. His DE incarnation is actually representative of his Sith Sorcery based talents. He acquired access to important ancient sources to hone his talents in the dark side. He first began to unleash Sith Sorcery during The Clone Wars to negatively influence the Jedi Order with the dark side.

Originally posted by Master Han
You're insinuating that the Sith Emperor has sith sorcery that cannot be defended against (ignoring the fact that Zannah had the bonus of a DS nexus, and it was stated that she could not have used it on Bane otherwise).
That is Zannah's limitation! Sith Emperor is on a whole new level in comparison to her. Try to understand the difference and purpose of this message.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yet obviously his sorcery did not work on the Hero of Tython.

So prove it would work on Windu.
Sith Emperor was involved in a Galaxy-busting act of Sith Sorcery during this moment. Therefore, he was vulnerable during this time and HoT (along with his allies) took advantage of this vulnerability. Thanks to betrayal of Scourge, HoT knew when to strike. In addition, much of the details of this encounter is unknown.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What kind of logic is this?

Sith Sorcery is a pathway to unlock greatest of the dark side abilities; it is a field to accomplish the impossible.

Plagueis wished to gain expertise in this field but he couldn't acquire ancient sources to assist him in this regard.



Yes. Plagueis, without any natural talent in sorcery and with extremely minimal background knowledge or text to support him, rediscovered a vast set of powers, and how to manipulate midicholorians.



So then justify your insinuation that the Sith Emperor is more powerful than I-can-destroy-fleets Palpatine and I-can-manipulate-life Plagueis in sith sorcery.



SW legend, I'm tiring your insistence on using vague and flowery prose to justify mathematical and concrete comparisons between entities.

Most notably, you assume that, because Zannah + DS nexus can overwhelm Bane's defenses, a baseline Sith Emperor can do the same to a Mace Windu that overpowered Palpatine's lightning at point blank range.

Your justification? Vague prose and adjectives describing Vitiate as "very powerful".




Ah, so please explain why you so commonly seem to use the HoT's defeating Vitiate feat to justify his/her allegedly amazing combat skillz. I suppose I could use the same to put the Jedi Exile above Obi Wan, because she kills Nihilus, right?



Oh, the irony...

Originally posted by Master Han
They are more powerful if you include Windu. Why are you leaving out Mace?

No, they aren't. I'm leaving him out because we're talking about Vitiate owning everyone except Windu.

Originally posted by Master Han
That...doesn't make any sense. He easily overpowers them, but that doesn't mean Braga wasn't able to advance. "Easily" doesn't mean "instantly and without any modicum of resistance".

Yeah it does. If he can easily defeat him and others then how does it make sense that despite Vitiate going all out in your opinion, Braga can still resist and advance through his attack?

Originally posted by Master Han
But he has to do so while simultaneously holding back Windu.

Why is it so damn hard for you to imagine him doing that? He just needs to keep Windu at bay for a few seconds while he owns his companions. With his feats I am seriously struggling to comprehend why that is so confusing a concept for you to grasp.

Originally posted by Master Han
The lightning storm will be dispersed across several enemies, compared to Palpatine's blasting him at point blank range.

That doesn't mean he can run through it like its a day at the beach.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes. Plagueis, without any natural talent in sorcery and with extremely minimal background knowledge or text to support him, rediscovered a vast set of powers, and how to manipulate midicholorians.
1. Can you make a list of these "vast set of powers" for me? (Dark side powers are not restricted to Sith Sorcery based talents; the whole phenomenon is too vast to comprehend)

2. Plagueis managed to manipulate midi-chlorians with aid of scientific tools. Vitiate accomplished similar objective with his Sith Sorcery based talents, if you haven't realized this yet. This is why Plagueis wanted to learn about Sith Sorcery but he was lacking in options.

Originally posted by Master Han
So then justify your insinuation that the Sith Emperor is more powerful than I-can-destroy-fleets Palpatine and I-can-manipulate-life Plagueis in sith sorcery.
I am not going to get involved in a endless debate of the "most powerful" characters in the mythos. However, "I can consume whole worlds" Vitiate have comparable accolades.

Originally posted by Master Han
SW legend, I'm tiring your insistence on using vague and flowery prose to justify mathematical and concrete comparisons between entities.

Most notably, you assume that, because Zannah + DS nexus can overwhelm Bane's defenses, a baseline Sith Emperor can do the same to a Mace Windu that overpowered Palpatine's lightning at point blank range.

Your justification? Vague prose and adjectives describing Vitiate as "very powerful".
Sidious was learning about Sith Sorcery during the time of his encounter with a Jedi Strike Team led by Windu. He didn't possessed talents on par with those of Vitiate during this time. Therefore, your comparison is moot.

Originally posted by Master Han
Ah, so please explain why you so commonly seem to use the HoT's defeating Vitiate feat to justify his/her allegedly amazing combat skillz. I suppose I could use the same to put the Jedi Exile above Obi Wan, because she kills Nihilus, right?
Regardless of the vulnerability of the Sith Emperor, HoT was the only Jedi in the galaxy who packed sufficient talents and skills to come within the striking distance of the Sith Emperor. Even Satele Shan was reluctant to get involved in this fight directly.

Originally posted by Master Han
Oh, the irony...
You have a problem with facts?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. Can you make a list of these vast set of powers for me?

2. He managed to manipulate midi-chlorians with aid of scientific tools.



I'm assuming you didn't read the book then. Because Plagueis was manipulating midi-chlorians without the "aid of scientific tools" throughout the book.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
However, "I can consume whole worlds" Vitiate have comparable accolades.

With the help of hundreds of other Sith Lords and a big fancy ritual.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious was learning about Sith Sorcery during the time of his encounter with a Jedi Strike Team led by Windu. He didn't possessed talents on par with those of Vitiate during this time. Therefore, your comparison is moot.

Proof? Sidious successfully performed rituals on a Galactic level. Not to mention he and Plagueis unbalanced the force itself through the use of a ritual.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its possible. It just isn't 'very' possible, its highly implausible and ridiculous. Theres no reason to believe that his telepathy only works while on a nexus either. Its a possibility. But theres nothing to suggest it and reasons to doubt it. It specifically says 'none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred.' This should logically apply in all situations, if he was on Korriban or the moon.

Neither am I. I'm merely providing the quotes. And I'm only saying that he do so 'successfully and in a combat scenario while not on a dark side nexus'.

Except we see people stand in his presence without succumbing. Revan, the Exile, Scourge, etc. The statement is clearly invalid, especially in light of the fact that it's a fallible in universe source.

The fact that Vitiate fights Braga's strike team at all indicates limitations on your otherwise implicit no limits fallacy.

Revan did succumb (the man in TOR is not the Jedi he once was), the Exile died and as a Sith Scourge was already full of fear, anger and hatred.

Really? Revan was just fine when he fought Vitiate as was Scourge and the Exile.
Clearly the passage is non canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, they aren't. I'm leaving him out because we're talking about Vitiate owning everyone except Windu.


No, we're talking about Vitiate owning everyone and holding Windu back.

And you're also assuming that Vitiate can overwhelm Windu even 1 vs. 1, given that Windu was pushing Sidious's lightning back on his face, and given that your "vitiate's lightning is teh best!" argument is backed on nothing more than conjecture.




Because being able to advance for a few seconds =/= the attacker not winning with ease?

Anakin pwns Dooku with ease post "in teh zone", but the latter still lasts for a good, what...15 seconds? Yet nobody would deny calling it a curbstomp; indeed, Matthew Stover goes to quite eloquent lengths to describe it as such.



Funny strawman aside, we know that Mace Windu with vaapad > Palpatine's lightning, at point blank range, concentrated solely on him.

Now, you're suggesting that lightning dispersed over several targets, and over several square meters of space, can hold Mace Windu back for the time it takes Vitiate to take out the others, and then for him to have enough energy to take out Windu with his supposedly stronger lightning.

And you think this only requires Vitiate's lightning to be "slightly" more powerful?

If Force energy scales by area, or by some logical form of conservation, then Mace Windu will encounter significantly less resistance with the initial barrage. Like, an order of magnitude less.

---------

Oh, and since your "Vitiate > RotS Sidious in lightning" claim seems to be based solely on the former's attack having "more impressive" showings, feel free to establish that the members of the strike team aside from Braga can match up with the other members of the B teams, all described by Windu to be some of the greatest swordsmen the Order had ever produced.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Really? Revan was just fine when he fought Vitiate as was Scourge and the Exile.
Clearly the passage is non canon.

If you really want to get pushy, then recall that they were taught how to resist Vitiates powers by Revan, who knew about it from succumbing before.

And yet the passage makes no note of exceptions. Clearly it is non canon.

I've already told you that none have, so no it isn't. Scourge is a Sith, the Exile died too quickly to register and Revan did succumb.

So the Exile died without succumbing... Meaning she didn't succumb... Meaning its still wrong?

Revan had to do his "Oneness" crap to withstand the mental assault. The exile did not stand in front of the Emperor as he was preoccupied with Revan. Scourge got mind raped by Vitiate.


No. The only reason Braga's strike team stand is because "vitiate allows it", and he said as such. When he decided enough was enough, they went down without a struggle.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So the Exile died without succumbing... Meaning she didn't succumb... Meaning its still wrong?
Sith Emperor didn't unleash his telepathic powers on her and Scourge. Remember that Scourge was working for the Sith Emperor?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So the Exile died without succumbing... Meaning she didn't succumb... Meaning its still wrong?

Nope, since the quote is 'none can' not 'none have' or 'none ever will'. The Exile couldn't have stood in his presence without succumbing, but since she died so quickly, that became a non-factor.

Plus, you know, technically she did succumb.... in a manner of speaking.

So she stood in his presence without succumbing... Proving that she can... Meaning it's still wrong?

Nope.

Meaning that unless Vitiate is somewhat distracted or allows you to stand before him, you're going to succumb. Revan was a special case as he was prepared for it and Vitiate underestimated him.

The potential opponents would succumb to mental influence of Vitiate when he wills it or wants to break them.

"These fragmented communiques showed the Emperor's Jedi pursuers descending into fear, madness, and evil when faced with his power." It quickly became clear the Sith Emperor was more then a brilliant military strategist and cunning political leader. He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him. (SWTORE, Page 88)

The codex entry is also implying the same but it is written in more generalist sense.

It is a matter of common sense that nothing would happen to individuals around Vitiate unless the Sith Emperor wants to influence them with his telepathic abilities. And when he gets in to action, the opponents loose their effectiveness and typically end up broke.

Irregardless (lol), the fact is that multiple quotes support the idea of Vitiate being a being capable of shredding minds and corrupting nearly anyone not specifically prepared for him, as he has done to dozens of Jedi. The idea that he cannot do so in combat or that he requires a nexus is baseless and false. That he destroyed the minds of Jedi "who came too close to him" and that he did so when they "faced with his power." supports the idea that this occurred in combat and he did so with his own natural power.

He is, frankly, 'the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.'

Originally posted by samfreedman77
Meaning that unless Vitiate is somewhat distracted or allows you to stand before him, you're going to succumb. Revan was a special case as he was prepared for it and Vitiate underestimated him.

The passage makes no room for exceptions, Revan or the Exile included. It says none... Not none "except for X." And because people HAVE stood before him without succumbing, it's clearly false.

Which makes sense, given that its otherwise a blatant no limits fallacy.

OK, Neph, we seem to be going around in circles here.

Let me just restate my contentions, a few new ones.

1. Palpatine's lightning > Vitiate's lightning

Like it or not, canon tells us that Palpatine = strongest sith lord as early as TPM. Granted, there are plenty of variations in potency in individual powersets, and "powerful" can have a wide variety of connotations (although the context agrees that it's in a combative setting), but given that Force lightning is Palpatine's signature Force attack, there needs to be some measure of evidence that Vitiate's uniquely above Sidious here...

...and all you've given is that he can overwhelm multiple comparatively weaker enemies with a lightning storm. OK, but can Sidious not stretch Yoda, the most "powerful foe the darkness had ever known", who had developed a counter to every dark side technique, to his limits? How do you determine which is more impressive? It seems like Sidious's performance vs. individuals is superior to Vitiate's.

And just FYI, I'm not very big on the "rule debates on authorial fiat" tactic, but there has to be some measure of clear and convincing evidence to overcome a plethora of explicit canon rulings.

2. Vitiate's lightning storm tactic will involve dispersing his energy over multiple targets. Even the weakest on the "B team" are extraordinarily powerful Jedi Masters. So given that there's nothing to suggest that his lightning > Palpatine's, the notion that he hold off Windu while killing everyone else is quite a weak one.

3. Windu's vaapad draws on Vitiate's own dark side energies, so the stronger you think Windu is, the stronger Windu himself grows.

4. Also, this entire argument is predicated on the assumption that the arrest squad is going to charge into the Emperor's room without any semblance of tactics or planning.

What if they whip out a powerful, portable laser cannon, and while, say, Agen Kolar is firing it at his majesty's ass, Windu swings in and chops his head off?

What if they use Force speed TPM style?

What if they spread out and prevent Vitiate from using the storm technique?

5. Since I'm making this list in no particular order...Vitiate had to charge up his lightning for a few moments to overwhelm Revan's defenses. Indeed, Revan even batted one of his initial bolts back at the Emperor. This suggests that your estimations as to how easily Vitiate can overcome the top dogs is too generous.