Top Chicks Run a Gauntlet

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
Satele even says herself that she was beaten by Malgus on Alderaan and that she was scared to ever face him again, and he was described as a monster by her.

Are we assuming Malgus' power stagnated? I mean, he managed to get a good chunk of followers to follow him as the new Emperor. Since they never meet in TOR for a fight, we can only judge it based on what we have seen.

Malgus beat her twice. Regardless of what may happen if they beat up in the current TOR timeline.

Not denying that she isn't powerful. She is. But from what we've seen so far, Malgus is better, until she beats him, regardless of her latter power boost, while Malgus may have matched, we don't know.

Just don't see the point in speculating really.

Darth Arho succeeded Darth Baras as head of the military arm of the Empire, when the Republic killed Arho, Malgus presumably seized the Pyramid of the Military, and essentially became a Dark Council member in all but name. The Pyramid of the Military being particularly powerful meant Malgus had a decent following, AND with the Foundry he had infinite droids and ships. He had followers, sure, but not one Dark Council member bent a knee to him. Not one.

Satele is the Grand Master and the strongest Jedi in the galaxy. Her being superior to Malgus even Ilum arc Malgus isn't that far fetched. His power didn't stagnate, but Satele went from Knight to Grandmaster from their last fight. Malgus went from Darth...to Darth.

Nephthys

No-one has explained how any of the teams deal with Kreia's Giga Drain.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/nl/images/1/1f/UnlimitedPower.jpg

POWAH! Unbloooooooooockable POWAH!

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
No-one has explained how any of the teams deal with Kreia's Giga Drain.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/nl/images/1/1f/UnlimitedPower.jpg

POWAH! Unbloooooooooockable POWAH!

No limits fallacy. Happy Dance

Nephthys

Pshaw!

No, thats like saying that its a No limits fallacy that Kitty Pryde can phase through any amount of solid matter because she's intangible. Sure she might have stuff that she can't phase through, but thats usually stuff thats specifically designed to stop her. For the GIGA DRAIN!!!!!! such a thing doesn't exist. It can't be blocked because theres no known way to block it short of cele-taping the Exile onto a shield.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
Pshaw!

No, thats like saying that its a No limits fallacy that Kitty Pryde can phase through any amount of solid matter because she's intangible. Sure she might have stuff that she can't phase through, but thats usually stuff thats specifically designed to stop her. For the GIGA DRAIN!!!!!! such a thing doesn't exist. It can't be blocked because theres no known way to block it short of cele-taping the Exile onto a shield.

Because killing featless Vrook, Kavar, and Zek-Kai means it's unblockable. Happy Dance

Nephthys

Because Kreia saying that its unblockable makes it unblockable.

Based

For the sake of debate no force drain hax.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Kreia saying that its unblockable makes it unblockable.

She did?

Nephthys

>:C

Edit: Yes.

Based

Originally posted by Nephthys
>:C

Edit: Yes.

Her attack or Nihilus' which is completely possible of being much greater?

Nephthys

Its the same attack, except Nihilus reached greater heights with it. Its the attack she talks about when she says 'There are some technique against which there is no defense.'

Col. Valerian

So we should just assume that Kreia can pwn basically anyone because she has TEH DRAIN?

Nephthys

Thats what I do. awepedo

Man I dunno. Technically yes, no-one has been able to contradict that idea except Gideon and the best he could do was suggest that the Dark Reaper is similar enough that the defense Anakin, Uliq Qel'Droma and I think Dooku have would work against it. But those are only 3 dudes.

Plus the 'defense' is odd and might not even work against Nihilus and Traya due to how it works.

Col. Valerian

That's why I hate the UBER POWERFUL DRAIN!!!!!!

But, in this gauntlet, she isn't allowed to use it, so. peaches

Col. Valerian

Since this is the case, I see them getting past round 1, with some difficulty. I think they also get past round 2, with more difficulty.

If this is DoE Bane and Zannah, I'm not sure I can see them getting past round 3, even with Bastila's BM. Maybe I just don't wanna...

Nephthys

TBH I don't know why Zannah isn't on the team. She's better than Traya without taking TEH DRAIN into consideration.

But yeah, they stop at 3 imo.

Ascendancy

Still no clarification on the Orbs? If they're allowed then two and done without question.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Kreia saying that its unblockable makes it unblockable.

Prove that's the same technique Darth Nihlus used to drain a world Happy Dance

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its the same attack, except Nihilus reached greater heights with it. Its the attack she talks about when she says 'There are some technique against which there is no defense.'

Because Kreia is the foremost master of the force? And there is no proof that Kreia's giga-drain is the same technique as Nihlus'
Nihlus' attack left nothing on Katarr. Those Masters bodies were still very much there.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove that's the same technique Darth Nihlus used to drain a world Happy Dance

You can talk to Kreia and she'll describe Nihilus' technique to you, saying that it drains the target completely of the Force, leaving only emptiness behind, which is why it's such a threat. When you examine the bodies of the Jedi Masters, that's exactly the description of what she did to them.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Because Kreia is the foremost master of the force? And there is no proof that Kreia's giga-drain is the same technique as Nihlus'
Nihlus' attack left nothing on Katarr. Those Masters bodies were still very much there.

She's the foremost master on the technique, knowing enough about it to instruct Nihilus in its use at the Trayas Academy. There is a possibility that there is a defense that she doesn't know about, yes. But that's merely unsupported speculation.

And Nihilus' attack didn't leave nothing on Katarr. I don't know where you're getting that from.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
You can talk to Kreia and she'll describe Nihilus' technique to you, saying that it drains the target completely of the Force, leaving only emptiness behind, which is why it's such a threat. When you examine the bodies of the Jedi Masters, that's exactly the description of what she did to them.

Nihlus' technique involves speaking and literally life wipes, nothing is left, not bones, not bodies, nothing. It is closer to thought bomb than what Kreia shows.

And Nihilus' attack didn't leave nothing on Katarr. I don't know where you're getting that from.

There are no corpses in Unseen and Unheard if I recall correctly, only empty buildings. And no Nihilus surpasses his Master, he, not Kriea is the foremost master of Force Drain.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Nihlus' technique involves speaking and literally life wipes, nothing is left, not bones, not bodies, nothing. It is closer to thought bomb than what Kreia shows.

There are no corpses in Unseen and Unheard if I recall correctly, only empty buildings. And no Nihilus surpasses his Master, he, not Kriea is the foremost master of Force Drain.

Incorrect, there are skeletons in Unseen, Unheard.

KHSstYl9Yfs

0.57.

Plus when Visas mentions him 'speaking' that could just be a fanciful way of saying it. He doesn't speak when he tries to drain the Exile on the Ravager.

And Kreia was the one who taught him to reach those heights with the technique. He is better at it though. It still doesn't matter, as there's no-one else who knows it better and no-one who has blocked it.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
Incorrect, there are skeletons in Unseen, Unheard.

KHSstYl9Yfs

0.57.

Still has a different effect. Completely different.

Could is operative here. Also Kriea's statement of there being no defense is proved wrong in that very fight, the Exile showed one defense already.

I am not convinced. A Sith Lord saying that their technique is unblockable is not unheard of.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Still has a different effect. Completely different.

How so? Both attacks drain the Force, leaving absences in it. If you mean the skeleton, recall that Nihilus' attack is more powerful than Kreia's and that it could just be another case of artistic depictions being different from gameplay like the form the attack takes. Also theres no proof that it was the attack itself that reduced them to skeletons.

Hell, we could just say that Miralukians have an extremely swift speed at decomposition.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Could is operative here. Also Kriea's statement of there being no defense is proved wrong in that very fight, the Exile showed one defense already.

The evidence I provided make it a bit more that merely 'could'. And that wasn't a defense, the Exile's nature simply made her impossible to drain. Though you are right, being a Force Wound is the only way we know of the block the technique.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not convinced. A Sith Lord saying that their technique is unblockable is not unheard of.

You are welcome to speculate on a possible defense if you want. smile

No defense is know or has been shown except being a Force Wound and possibly whatever Uliq Qel'Droma came up with. If she said that then it stands to reason that conventional force defenses are not up to the task.

Arhael

Killing drain contradicts other canon. Yuuzhan Vong, Kallista and others survived force severing! Happy Dance

Out of all other material I know Force drain is portrayed only in Troy Denning books. Notably Lomi Plo and Darth Krayt, no one died from it though.

UltimateAnomaly

Wasn't it the sudden cutting off of the force that killed them?

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
How so? Both attacks drain the Force, leaving absences in it. If you mean the skeleton, recall that Nihilus' attack is more powerful than Kreia's and that it could just be another case of artistic depictions being different from gameplay like the form the attack takes. Also theres no proof that it was the attack itself that reduced them to skeletons.
Darth Malak could also use force Drain, does that mean there is no defense against it? Happy Dance

A technique that rips the flesh from the bones of it's victims has completely different mechanics than a technique that leaves them devoid of the force.

We could say it doesn't mean it isn't true.

It was a defense, a natural defense but still a defense. My point is that the Exile proved Kreia's statement to be fallible.

Tutaminis users have been shown to block powerful force attacks, Jedi have been shown to raise force barriers. Those techniques could likely block Kriea and Nihlus' tangible drains, but not Nihlus' intangible force talk or the Emperor's ritual.

Happy Dance

You have yet to prove that the technique Kriea used is the same one Nihlus use to devastate Katarr Happy Dance

Arhael

When cutting of the Force wasn't sudden? Nomi severed Ulic. Verger severed Jacen. Jacen severed Ben.

Nephthys

The attack does not merely separate one from the Force. It separates life from the Force as well:

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/Scrnshot2.jpg

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
The attack does not merely separate one from the Force. It separates life from the Force as well:

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww231/Thallah/Scrnshot2.jpg

Then that proves the attacks are not the same. If the laser drain was the same, why was in ineffective against the Exile?

Nephthys

Because the Exile already completely cut herself off from the Force and is a Force Wound.

Arhael

Canon contradiction. Nihilus severed from the Force and fed on death. Krayt learned technique from Nihilus and was draining power itself from Abeloth without severing and feeding on Force itself, not death.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because the Exile already completely cut herself off from the Force and is a Force Wound.

If that's true why did Kreia so desperately try to stop the Council from cutting the Exile off from the Force?

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Darth Malak could also use force Drain, does that mean there is no defense against it? Happy Dance

A technique that rips the flesh from the bones of it's victims has completely different mechanics than a technique that leaves them devoid of the force.

The technique is different from Force Drain.

Not necessarily.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
We could say it doesn't mean it isn't true.

Hence why I said that it's unknown if it was Nihilus' attack that did it. It's impossible to prove.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It was a defense, a natural defense but still a defense. My point is that the Exile proved Kreia's statement to be fallible.

It's simply an immunity.

I have acknowledged the fallibility of her words, yet you have been unable to provide any defense excepting the Exiles unique case.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Tutaminis users have been shown to block powerful force attacks, Jedi have been shown to raise force barriers. Those techniques could likely block Kriea and Nihlus' tangible drains, but not Nihlus' intangible force talk or the Emperor's ritual.

Uh-huh. Prove it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Happy Dance

You have yet to prove that the technique Kriea used is the same one Nihlus use to devastate Katarr Happy Dance

I have. Many times already. To be honest it's getting rather tedious.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If that's true why did Kreia so desperately try to stop the Council from cutting the Exile off from the Force?

Well she was more just straight up pissed that they would even try tbh.

Because the Exile learned to feel the Force again by feeding off others that she has a Force Bond with. But the Council acknowledges that she cannot actually access the Force. Who knows if it would have even worked.

Pwned

Has it occurred to anyone that Kreia was probably lying? Just playing the Devil's Advocate here, but look at some reasons:

She was planning to betray the Exile. That much is very obvious. So, why give the Exile a reason to search out a defense to a technique to fight Nihilus, when Kreia could use it on her herself? (As far as I know, Kreia did not know the Exile would be immune to the drain, neither did the Exile. Obviously Nihilus didn't) And if the only real thing you have going for you can be defended against, do you really want people to know that? Or would you sow misinformation that it was unstoppabru?

Speculation and just adding stuff in. Y'know.

Nephthys

Kreia did know that the Exile would be immune. That's why she had the Exile follow her to Atris while leaking word that there were Jedi there to Nihilus. So that the Exile could kill him.

Pwned

And where does it say that?

Really, I am only doing this because of the disparity that came up once certain new members joined.

In fact, I think it was Slash_KMC that was the biggest proponent of, "Nothing Kreia says can be trusted due to the number of times we know she lied"

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well she was more just straight up pissed that they would even try tbh.

Because the Exile learned to feel the Force again by feeding off others that she has a Force Bond with. But the Council acknowledges that she cannot actually access the Force. Who knows if it would have even worked.

I always viewed it that while the Exile was a wound in the force and not herself attatched to the Galactic entity (in otherwords she said **** off to the midiclorians) she could connect to the force and give access to it's powers. That connection being made through others. If the Council cut her off from the force they'd cut her off from her companions.
For that reason I believe that Lazer Drain is a different technique than Nihilus' Giga Drain. Because Nihlus' Giga Drain cuts the being off from the force and feeds on their existance, where as Kreia's just strips them of the force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kreia did know that the Exile would be immune. That's why she had the Exile follow her to Atris while leaking word that there were Jedi there to Nihilus. So that the Exile could kill him.

I think it's a stretch to say she "knew" more like she hypothesized that the Exile would be immune to his draining technique, and knew that she was the galaxy's best way to stave off destruction.

Q99

Originally posted by Nephthys
TBH I don't know why Zannah isn't on the team. She's better than Traya without taking TEH DRAIN into consideration.

But yeah, they stop at 3 imo.

They've got a numbers advantage in 3, and Traya isn't the strongest one on the team.

Probably Nomi's the biggest threat, force severe/wall of light and all that.

ares834

Originally posted by Nephthys
Of course then Drew got it wrong and (I think) said something about the Exile regaining her connection to the Force over the course of the game, which is impossible. So I'm just going to ignore that. no expression

It's canon.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljctuzoqZC1qdlkgg.gif

But in all seriousness, that one Ithorian says you can heal over the course of the journey. And I'm not sure why it would be impossible, certainly not any more ridiculous then the concept of the force wounds in the first place.

Edit: And let's use our brains here. Kreia is clearly using the same technique as Nihilus. Just like the Dark Reaper. wink

Nephthys

What's canon? no expression

It's impossible because if the Exile regained her connection over the game then there no reason why Nihilus shouldn't have been able to drain her and gotten hurt by trying. Since it contradicts a fundamental element of the plot, I consider it discontinuity.

ares834

She is a wound in the force until then end at which point her connection is reestablished.... That was my understanding of what Drew was saying.

Nephthys

**** what Drew said.

And **** that stupid book.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Nihlus showed the ability to use the Drain lazer which simply is a force drain. He also showed a superior ability that destroyed Katarr. Two separate techniques.

There is nothing suggesting they're seperate techniques at all.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You yourself have called it 'Giga drain'.

Which is something of a misnomer. Force Drain is a different technique to Nihilus' attack, which works by creating a Force Bond with the target, severing the targets connections between the force and only then draining the Force. Kreia says that this technique can only be leaned instinctively rather than taught. Its a different technique to Force Drain.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I agree that it could be the same technique. But it is a stretch to assume that it is.

No, it's a stretch to assume they're different techniques. Throughout the game only one technique is ever spoken of. Nowhere is it ever suggested that theres two techniques. The Council say that the Exile and the Sith use the same technique. Kreia instructed Nihilus on how to better use his technique. Kreia says that the technique Nihilus uses damages the Force. When you examine the Jedi Masters it says that they are absences in the Force.

Its the same technique.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Exile may be a unique case. In fact I hypothesize that the reason why she appeared to be so weak in the Revan novel was because she did not have her companions to amplify her connection the force. As a result she was not as powerful as she was when she took down the Sith Trio.

That's actually a really good hypothesis. I'm going to steal that. ninja

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
There is no proof that Drain lazer would work on Tutaminis user. Tutaminis is a technique developed to absorb/ redirect harmful energies. Drain lazer is a visible, tangible Sith technique that strikes out through the force. Tutaminis is a technique that absorbs other force techniques. What property of Drain lazer makes you think it could bypass a powerful Tutaminis user.

For one thing, Revan was a powerful user of Tutaminis, which Kreia should know about since she was his master both before and after he became a Sith and yet she still says that the technique is unblockable. And its not as if Tutaminis is a secret technique that she wouldn't know about. She's both a Jedi Master and Sith Lord after all and has access to Trayas Academy.

Secondly, it is only speculation that it can be blocked by Tutaminis, there is absolutely no evidence.

Thirdly, I find it illogical that none of the Jedi on Katarr knew Tutaminis and didn't try to block Nihilus' attack. As Unseen, Unheard showed us, the population of Katarr had time to react to Nihilus.

Fourthly, Tutaminis has never blocked even Force Drain.

And lastly, the unique way in which the technique works as I have detailed and explained make it possible and not at all illogical that such a technique as Tutaminis would be unable to block it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No need to get mad homes smokin'

http://chzjustcapshunz.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/funny-animal-captions-judgmental-otter.jpg

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Supposition. Electrical Judgement looks like Force Lightning and operates the same way but it isn't Force Lightning. Plagueis makes that clear in his novel.

Can i please get a quote for this? I'm currently talking about the same thing with Arheal.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
My point still stands, the Exile can be cut off from the force. And Nihlus' life wiper is a different technique. If drain lazer was the same technique as the one he used on Katarr, Visas, Mandalore, and all his Neo-Mandalorians should have been wiped out the moment he used it, and only the Exile should have remained.

No, why do you think that? It's the same technique, just used on a larger scale. If Nihilus used the technique to its fullest extent then he would have killed his own crew and Visas, who he has a Force Bond with.

Also theres the posibility that the technique simply hit the Exile first and the damage he took from that caused him to stop do it, like he recoiled in pain.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So...he basically says exactly what the Jedi Council says she does not do... sick

Seriously, **** that guy.

Even though I like his storyline in TOR, **** him.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Because it is completely different. There is nothing to suggest she is more powerful after she kills the Masters at all. And she said 'See it through the eyes of the Exile.' Who cut herself off from the force at Malachor. The difference being the Masters literally could not live without the Force, unlike the Exile.

How is that completely different? It doesn't need to say anything, it's pretty obvious that she used the technique and thus fed on their deaths. Just because it does explicitly say 'yo dawg she drained them and was empowered by them' doesn't mean thats not what happened. The developers just gave us a tiny bit of credit and assumed we could figure that out on our own. The only thing suggesting its a different technique is you and your basing that off of nothing.

Also:

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2048/img-20.JPG

'Drained of Life.'

And btw after she drains them she goes to Malachor and pimpslaps Sion around after killing half a dozen Sith Assassins without even exerting herself.

Arhael

Funny that there are plenty of characters that experienced FAR greater Force cataclysms and never became Force wounds.

Nephthys

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8euiiTZiW1r35krjo1_1280.png

So not bothered.

(I'm the Queen, it is me)

Col. Valerian

Originally posted by Nephthys
**** what Drew said.

And **** that stupid book.

I know, it feels terrible, doesn't it?

Nephthys

Now that does bother me.

Col. Valerian

I know. biscuits

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
There is nothing suggesting they're seperate techniques at all.

One is in the form of a lazer that drains the force from someone, the other is cutting them off from the force then feasting on their life energy. In KOTOR II if you go DS, when the Exile absorbs the Masters life energy Nihilus style it looks completely different.

I agree that it is a different technique. Kreia's is in my opinion closer to Force Drain than Nihlus'. Darth Nihlus' attack created fires in cities and rended the flesh from people's bodies. How does that compare to Kreia's technique.

Except if the Exile was running around creating absences in the force it would surely have been noticed by her force sensitive companions. Nor did the Exile run around shooting beams of orange light from her chest.

That is a logical fallacy.

Thank you big grin

Prove that pre mind-wipe Revan was a competent Tutaminis user. And considering that the only user of Tutaminis that we ever see during TOR era are Satele and Revan, it can be assumed they were the only users. Even the Exile never attempted to catch lightning and she was probably the strongest Jedi after Revan.

It is only speculation that it can break Tutaminis. Character statements are often full of fallacies.

First off my entire argument in the first place is that Kreia's force drain is different from Nihlus' that's irrelevant. My entire point is that Nihlus' life wiper is unblockable, however Drain lazer is.

Second, there were only a hundred Jedi on that planet. The most notable Vandar Tokare was more respected as a swordsman and a Telekinetcs master than a Tutaminis user. When 300 Jedi went to Geonosis not a single one was a master of Tutaminis. In fact only Yoda of 10,000 Jedi has been shown to be capable of blocking/ redirecting Sith Lightning.

Irrelevant considering that a Force Drain user of prodigious skill has never been matched against a Tutaminis user of prodigious skill. The only one that we have is Darth Malak, and Revan defeated him without being a hole in the force or dying.

The draining lazer? I disagree. It is tangible, a tangible wave of energy that leaps out from the users hand in an orange lazer. That is nothing like the invisible wave of death Nihlus uses, which looks more like an unblockable technique.
And yes Tutaminis is used to stop harmful energies from reaching the user. Force drain is a harmful energy in lazer form and there is no reason to presume that it would not be able to be blocked by a sufficiently powerful force user.

"A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer one's will. But the Force cannot be treated deferentially. In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself."

I disagree with you on that. In unseen unheard Nihilus doesn't fire a giant orange lazer from his hand. He uses a word and wipes out all life on the planet.

Considering the tech he used in Unseen Unheard was intangible, I doubt it.

Storyline it TOR was kinda disappointing for me honestly.

Aesthetically the techniques look different entirely.
They do completely different things.
Their scales are radically different.
And yet you assume they are the same technique. And you say there is no counter to it based on a single (rather dubious) character statement.
And Kriea was always that strong. Or did you miss her Telekinetically pimp slapping three Jedi Masters with TK, then telling the strongest one to sit the **** down AGAIN with another TK. The Sith Emperor became fricken immortal from using the technique, Nihlus was virtually immortal through his helm, likely because of the power he'd absorbed. Darth Malak was empowered through Force drain and it was obvious in-game. Kreia in the meanwhile...showed no improvement.

Col. Valerian

He assumes they are the same technique, but Nihilus is vastly more powerful than Kreia. Hence, his drain is, as well. I wouldn't say they do completely different things.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
He assumes they are the same technique, but Nihilus is vastly more powerful than Kreia. Hence, his drain is, as well. I wouldn't say they do completely different things.

One technique is invisible and rips the flesh off of a being's bodies and create fires across the planet's surface. The other technique fires a lazer that drains someone's Force energy until there is nothing left.
Nihlus' technique looks like Thought Bomb, Kriea's looks exactly like Force Drain.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
One technique is invisible

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-crossarms.gif

Col. Valerian

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
One technique is invisible and rips the flesh off of a being's bodies and create fires across the planet's surface. The other technique fires a lazer that drains someone's Force energy until there is nothing left.
Nihlus' technique looks like Thought Bomb, Kriea's looks exactly like Force Drain.

Where do you get the idea that it's invisible?

Still, Nihilus' power is described as a drain within the game. A vastly more powerful drain than Kreia's. It's implied that it's a drain so powerful that it does what you just described, but it's still Force Drain, like Kreia's. Even though it 'looks like a thought bomb', there's absolutely no reason to believe it is similar because it's never even suggested. Drain is the word they use to describe it...

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-crossarms.gif

Let me ask you this. If an invisible technique reduced someone to ashes would you assume it was force lighting?

Nephthys

Well its just that it clearly isn't invisible in Unseen, Unheard. Or any of the other times its used.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Where do you get the idea that it's invisible?

Still, Nihilus' power is described as a drain within the game. A vastly more powerful drain than Kreia's. It's implied that it's a drain so powerful that it does what you just described, but it's still Force Drain, like Kreia's. Even though it 'looks like a thought bomb', there's absolutely no reason to believe it is similar because it's never even suggested.

Give me a quote of it being called a drain once in game.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well its just that it clearly isn't invisible in Unseen, Unheard. Or any of the other times its used.

It's certainly not a giant orange beam.

ares834

In the game it looks the same. In the game it does the same thing. And in the game there is a huge focus on this specific ability and it's even utilized, albeit to a lesser degree, by the Sith Assassins. Yes, nothing straight up says Kreia is doing the exact same thing as Nihilus, but through any application of the higher brain functions one will realize that she obviously is.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's certainly not a giant orange beam.

Gameplay animations are not necessarily canon. I'm sure that swirly lines don't actually twirl around someone when you Force Stun them.

Unseen, Unheard comes after Kotor II and therefore overrides how it depicts the technique.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And yet Kreia says it cannot be taught. Are we also to assume fodder Sith assassins can solo the likes of Yoda with unblockable force drain.

They can't use it like that. Recall that Kreia actually describes what they do, they form bonds with others and grow in strength depending on how powerful those around them are. It's an in-game explanation for why enemies scale in difficulty to your level.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by ares834
In the game it looks the same. In the game it does the same thing. And in the game there is a huge focus on this specific ability and it's even utilized, albeit to a lesser degree, by the Sith Assassins. Yes, nothing straight up says Kreia is doing the exact same thing as Nihilus, but through any application of the higher brain functions one will realize that she obviously is.
If you use your higher brain function you'll realize that it makes no sense for fodder Sith assassins to be able to use a technique that is unblockable. And you will see that Kreia says it cannot be taught and yet Vrook says that they are teachings

Nephthys

Originally posted by Arhael
To be honest I never believed them. Because she did not dominate anyone and did not leach any power.

She does. Early in the game if you attack people Atton is compelled to attack them too and then wonders why he did that. Also as you gain more influence over people, their alignment changes to match yours. Kotor 2 is a brilliant game in that even gameplay mechanics are incorporated into the plot.

ares834

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If you use your higher brain function you'll realize that it makes no sense for fodder Sith assassins to be able to use a technique that is unblockable. And you will see that Kreia says it cannot be taught and yet Vrook says that they are teachings

And they can't use it to the height that Nihilus or even Traya can. They don't use it to kill, only to leech on the strength of their opponents. Kreia, hell even Vrook, says all this.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
Gameplay animations are not necessarily canon. I'm sure that swirly lines don't actually twirl around someone when you Force Stun them.
That isn't gameplay it is scripted to happen and qualifies more as a cutscene.

Sure

It doesn't matter. Kreia says 'there is no defense' and 'it cannot be learned' and yet they do learn it. My entire point was that Nihlus' mastery was unique. And when it is at that level it is unlearnable and unblockable. Kreia's on the other hand like the Sith Assassins is learnable and quite possibly block able.

Arhael

Originally posted by Nephthys
She does. Early in the game if you attack people Atton is compelled to attack them too and then wonders why he did that. Also as you gain more influence over people, their alignment changes to match yours. Kotor 2 is a brilliant game in that even gameplay mechanics are incorporated into the plot.
Interesting. I assume then that Jedi statement is true, if you follow darkside path. Right? I followed only lightside path, so don't really know.

Nephthys

The technique doesn't change whether you're lightside or dark. All that changes is what content you see.

Plus if your darkside theres a good chance you won't be speaking to the Jedi anyway since you would have killed them.

Pwned

It had just occurred to me, but Leia and Vader should have -technically- become Force Wounds. Having Alderaan blow up in that proximity....
Eh, maybe its Chosen One blood or whatever.

What I would like to know is this: Tutamnis blocks harmful techniques, and that statement is completely open-ended. Now, do we believe the statement of somebody or other as to exactly what that technique does, or do we believe the person that has only recently become a usable source instead of being dismissed as a complete liar?

I must remind you, Kreia does tend to lie. Especially when it serves her own ends. I honestly take what she says and consider half of it the truth, the other half being something to further her goals. Which, I must remind you, include killing the Force. That would pretty much require Nihilus or the Exile, and in true Sith fashion, she has them fight it out to see which is stronger.

Arhael

It had just occurred to me, but Leia and Vader should have -technically- become Force Wounds. Having Alderaan blow up in that proximity....
Eh, maybe its Chosen One blood or whatever.

And not only. Kyp Durron was meant to be the most potent Force wound. Then go Kueller and Brakiss, all Jedi in vicinity of Itor destruction, all Jedi present during Yavin IV annihilation and so on.

Nephthys

If you want to assume that she's lying, fine. You'll never prove it though.

And Tutaminis has been described as a 'reverse force drain'. It defects or absorbs harmful Force energies. Except this technique at its core isn't a direct energy attack.

"As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely."

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
One is in the form of a lazer that drains the force from someone, the other is cutting them off from the force then feasting on their life energy. In KOTOR II if you go DS, when the Exile absorbs the Masters life energy Nihilus style it looks completely different.

The Force is life energy, remember? That's why when you click on the Jedi Masters is says that they're 'Worse than dead. They are absences in the Force.' Also recall that the description of what the Exile and Nihilus does refers to them draining 'life energy' to regain/strengthen their connection to the Force

No it looks the same, except that its purple for some reason. Also, gameplay animations. erm

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I agree that it is a different technique. Kreia's is in my opinion closer to Force Drain than Nihlus'. Darth Nihlus' attack created fires in cities and rended the flesh from people's bodies. How does that compare to Kreia's technique./b]

It's larger in scale. wink

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except if the Exile was running around creating absences in the force it would surely have been noticed by her force sensitive companions. Nor did the Exile run around shooting beams of orange light from her chest.

Unless they were being controlled by her somehow not to question her. No, but that's impossible. The Jedi Masters do say that they see the death of the Force in the Exile just as much as they do in Nihilus, as does Kreia.

She actually does do that if you kill the Jedi Masters. I assume that in the other cases the amount drained is just too small to be noticable or to create a visual transfer of power.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That is a logical fallacy.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7tltpUxYw1rp9szv.gif

Deal with it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Thank you big grin

The only problem is that I'm not too sure if Force Bonds lose their potency over large distances. mmm

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove that pre mind-wipe Revan was a competent Tutaminis user. And considering that the only user of Tutaminis that we ever see during TOR era are Satele and Revan, it can be assumed they were the only users. Even the Exile never attempted to catch lightning and she was probably the strongest Jedi after Revan.

Well he certainly didn't learn it after his mind-wipe. Revan was barely trained in Kotor, and we don't see him learn an advanced technique such as Tutaminis and after Kotor his relationship to the Jedi Order was broken and he lived with Bastila on Coruscant.

Bullshit is that a safe assumption. There must be knowledge of the technique since Satale learned it. Where would she learn it unless it was known to the Jedi Order? And where would Revan learn it? Kreia has access to all the places that Revan studied at.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It is only speculation that it can break Tutaminis. Character statements are often full of fallacies.

Her words have not been proven fallacious yet.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
First off my entire argument in the first place is that Kreia's force drain is different from Nihlus' that's irrelevant. My entire point is that Nihlus' life wiper is unblockable, however Drain lazer is.

And there is still no evidence for that. Plus, they are the same technique.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Second, there were only a hundred Jedi on that planet. The most notable Vandar Tokare was more respected as a swordsman and a Telekinetcs master than a Tutaminis user. When 300 Jedi went to Geonosis not a single one was a master of Tutaminis. In fact only Yoda of 10,000 Jedi has been shown to be capable of blocking/ redirecting Sith Lightning.

False. Plo Koon and Obi-Wan have shown proficiently with Tutaminis. Also Rahm Kota was a master of it as well.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Irrelevant considering that a Force Drain user of prodigious skill has never been matched against a Tutaminis user of prodigious skill. The only one that we have is Darth Malak, and Revan defeated him without being a hole in the force or dying.

Probably because Force Drain is perfectly blockable by a standard Force shield.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The draining lazer? I disagree. It is tangible, a tangible wave of energy that leaps out from the users hand in an orange lazer. That is nothing like the invisible wave of death Nihlus uses, which looks more like an unblockable technique.
And yes Tutaminis is used to stop harmful energies from reaching the user. Force drain is a harmful energy in lazer form and there is no reason to presume that it would not be able to be blocked by a sufficiently powerful force user.

We've already dealt with this. No need to rehash arguments.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer one's will. But the Force cannot be treated deferentially. In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself."

Thanks. I hope you're reading this Arheal.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I disagree with you on that. In unseen unheard Nihilus doesn't fire a giant orange lazer from his hand. He uses a word and wipes out all life on the planet.

As I said the word is probably just a fancy way of saying it. This isn't an anime, Force Users don't need to call out their attacks. As for it looking different, its just artistic differences. The same way that Force Drain is represented as red lightning in some material and a orange laser in Kotor.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Considering the tech he used in Unseen Unheard was intangible, I doubt it.

Actually as I recall it we can see it destroying a building in one panel.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Storyline it TOR was kinda disappointing for me honestly.

TOR is awesome imo. Revan was not.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Aesthetically the techniques look different entirely.
They do completely different things.
Their scales are radically different.
And yet you assume they are the same technique. And you say there is no counter to it based on a single (rather dubious) character statement.

Already dealt with all of this.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And Kriea was always that strong. Or did you miss her Telekinetically pimp slapping three Jedi Masters with TK, then telling the strongest one to sit the **** down AGAIN with another TK. The Sith Emperor became fricken immortal from using the technique, Nihlus was virtually immortal through his helm, likely because of the power he'd absorbed. Darth Malak was empowered through Force drain and it was obvious in-game. Kreia in the meanwhile...showed no improvement.

Theres no way to prove that she wasn't boosted by it.

Pwned

Originally posted by Nephthys
If you want to assume that she's lying, fine. You'll never prove it though.

And Tutaminis has been described as a 'reverse force drain'. It defects or absorbs harmful Force energies. Except this technique at its core isn't a direct energy attack.

"As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely." I'm not assuming she is lying, I was just saying I always try to make sure something she says has another (i.e. more reliable) source than a Sith who has no compunctions against lying for her own gain.

"Reverse Force Drain" has nothing to do with it imo, but the fact is that its stated to block harmful Force techniques, and, while I can not remember exactly who said that, I have a gut feeling they would be mroe reliable than the, "I am trying to use/kill you, so heres what my best technique is, what it does, how it works, and other random facts, like you can't learn it, nor can you block it. So don't try to fight me because I will use it on you."

Nephthys

But Kreia wanted the Exile to kill her. http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/4/1/shrug.001.gif

And why try to make sure that someone who is immune to it anyway won't try to block it?

Col. Valerian

Even if she isn't lying, are we to assume everything she says is true?

She also said Jedi from the KotoR era were like "children playing with toys" compared to the Dark Lords of the Ancient Sith Empire...

Nephthys

Well theres nothing showing the technique actually being blocked.....

Yeah, but in that case we actually have evidence that she's wrong about that.

Col. Valerian

I know. My point is, not everything she says is true. In this case, however, I agree with you.

Nephthys

http://www.terrariaonline.com/attachments/fist-pump-baby-jpg.36092/

Col. Valerian

I like it when you post stuff like that.

Nephthys

I like that you like it big boy. http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/2/6/heysexy.001.gif

Pwned

Originally posted by Nephthys
But Kreia wanted the Exile to kill her. http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/4/1/shrug.001.gif

And why try to make sure that someone who is immune to it anyway won't try to block it? Because I honestly doubt she knew the Exile was absolutely immune. Suspicious of it? Sure. She may have had thoughts, but there are only 2 examples of a Force Wound, and I have a LOT of doubts she tried it on the other example.

Especially considering how the other example didn't know of the immunity himself. If anything, Kreia would learn that from Nihilus.

Nephthys

But Kreia didn't want to fight the Exile until after she'd already defeated Nihilus. Her whole plan was to lure the Exile to Malachor and kill her there to create a ripple that would kill the Force. But only after Nihilus had been killed.

Therefore there's no need for her to lie about that. By the time she plans to actually fight the Exile she'll either know that she's immune, or the Exile will have been killed by Nihilus.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
If you want to assume that she's lying, fine. You'll never prove it though.

And Tutaminis has been described as a 'reverse force drain'. It defects or absorbs harmful Force energies. Except this technique at its core isn't a direct energy attack.

"As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely."

Why do I have to prove she is lying, I don't have to prove a negative, you have to prove she is telling the truth.

And Tutaminis being reverse force drain only further enhancing the theory that it can be used to block giga drain. And the technique is a direct energy attack, the difference is it drains energy rather than dissipates it. Happy Dance

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Why do I have to prove she is lying, I don't have to prove a negative, you have to prove she is telling the truth.

And Tutaminis being reverse force drain only further enhancing the theory that it can be used to block giga drain. And the technique is a direct energy attack, the difference is it drains energy rather than dissipates it. Happy Dance

Proving that someone is lying isn't the same as proving a negative. In fact it would be closer to that to ask me to prove that she's telling the truth. I can't prove that theres no defense, just like I can't prove there's no tooth fairy. Therefore, the fact that no defense has been shown is proof enough.

No it isnt.

Also please stop posting those dancing bananas, its starting to look disrespectful.

Ascendancy

Regardless of any of these wemen'z powers, they fall at three. Unless this uber drain is capable of killing three prepared Sith Lords at once when one is enhanced by orbelisks and another has arcane sorcery including pure darkside energy that is unblockable then it's game over.

Nephthys

Based actually banned TEH UBAH DRAIN in this thread. We're just talking about it independently.

But yes enough of that. Mizukage, submit to me so this thread may return to the topic.

Pwned

Neph, it sounds like your drawing conclusions from nothing honestly. Nowhere do we see that Kreia didn't want to fight the Exile, on top of you saying that she just, "wanted to kill her" which would involve a fight. Now if you are going to fight somebody since you can't just murder them, are you going to tell them there are ways to block your best technique?

And the point remains that at the time she said it, Kreia didn't know of the Exile's immunity to it. She thought there would be some way for her to survive it, but there is no indication of anything resembling knowledge of safety.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Pwned
Neph, it sounds like your drawing conclusions from nothing honestly. Nowhere do we see that Kreia didn't want to fight the Exile, on top of you saying that she just, "wanted to kill her" which would involve a fight. Now if you are going to fight somebody since you can't just murder them, are you going to tell them there are ways to block your best technique?

And the point remains that at the time she said it, Kreia didn't know of the Exile's immunity to it. She thought there would be some way for her to survive it, but there is no indication of anything resembling knowledge of safety.

Oh but she did want to fight her. On Malachor. Her plan wouldn't work anywhere else. And she only lured the Exile to Malachor after she'd already had the Exile fight Nihilus. If she just wanted to kill the Exile she would have done it on Dantooine when the Exile is helpless. And if she only wanted to kill the Exile on Malachor then she would have just taken her there when the Exile was unconscious. Instead she lets her live and lures her to Telos so she can kill Nihilus.

You see, Kreia is very specific in manipulating events to occur in a specific order. It's from this that we can see her intentions. After she kills the Masters she goes to Atris and has the Exile follow her while tipping Nihilus off to go there, which forces the Exile to fight him. She does this because she isn't actually a omnicidal maniac and wants to stop him from om noming the universe, as she tells you. If this were not the case then she would have gone straight to Malachor. It's only after defeating Nihilus that the Exile is free to go to Malachor and fight her.

Since Kreia is so specific at manipulating the order of events then theres no need for her to lie about the technique. Hell, if she was going to lie then she would have told the Exile that there is a way to block it so the Exile would be more inclined to face Nihilus.

I've tried to explain it above as best as I can. If you still don't understand then I don't care enough to continue to try to educate you.

Arhael

It's one of those abilities, which Force users inherit naturally on very rare occasion. It's certainly not a common technique everyone could learn. In New Order Corran Horn was the only one able to absorb energy and convert it into power and he inherited it from Nejaa Halcyon.

Where and on what did they showed it?

Pwned

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh but she did want to fight her. On Malachor. Her plan wouldn't work anywhere else. And she only lured the Exile to Malachor after she'd already had the Exile fight Nihilus. If she just wanted to kill the Exile she would have done it on Dantooine when the Exile is helpless. And if she only wanted to kill the Exile on Malachor then she would have just taken her there when the Exile was unconscious. Instead she lets her live and lures her to Telos so she can kill Nihilus.

You see, Kreia is very specific in manipulating events to occur in a specific order. It's from this that we can see her intentions. After she kills the Masters she goes to Atris and has the Exile follow her while tipping Nihilus off to go there, which forces the Exile to fight him. She does this because she isn't actually a omnicidal maniac and wants to stop him from om noming the universe, as she tells you. If this were not the case then she would have gone straight to Malachor. It's only after defeating Nihilus that the Exile is free to go to Malachor and fight her.

Since Kreia is so specific at manipulating the order of events then theres no need for her to lie about the technique. Hell, if she was going to lie then she would have told the Exile that there is a way to block it so the Exile would be more inclined to face Nihilus.

I've tried to explain it above as best as I can. If you still don't understand then I don't care enough to continue to try to educate you. I don't see why that would make her more likely to say there is a way to defend against it. Like I said earlier, I agree she may have suspected that the Exile had a way to survive the attack, but she did not know that.
In fact, this kind of spiraled out of the original point somehow. I brought up that I believe Tutamnis can defend against the Giga Drain that they use on a small group of people. (Not the planet destroying one) So all of this is irrelevant to the argument anyways.

There is also not a need to educate me. I r smurt eenuff tew no dees sduf awn mai owhn D:<

Q99

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Regardless of any of these wemen'z powers, they fall at three. Unless this uber drain is capable of killing three prepared Sith Lords at once when one is enhanced by orbelisks and another has arcane sorcery including pure darkside energy that is unblockable then it's game over.

They probably can handle that, actually.

Nomi's wall of light is effectively 'Jedi sorcery' that can collectively use the power of a group.

They're all prepared and force-meditated by someone who sits in safety.

And there's 4 of them to those 3 Sith Lords.

The combination of numbers of meditation really gives them an edge.

The Uber drain is not the only overwhelming power on the quarter's side.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Force is life energy, remember? That's why when you click on the Jedi Masters is says that they're 'Worse than dead. They are absences in the Force.' Also recall that the description of what the Exile and Nihilus does refers to them draining 'life energy' to regain/strengthen their connection to the Force

No it looks the same, except that its purple for some reason. Also, gameplay animations. erm

I am not denying that what DS Exile and Nihlus do are the exact same thing, I am denying that the same mechanics (it being unblockable and cannot be taught) cannot be applied to the drain that Kreia and the Sith Assassins use.

You missed my point. My point is what the Exile and Nihlus do are different from Kreia in one way or another mechanic wise.

Concession accepted. Happy Dance

On Droumond Kaas it is likely that the Dark Side clouded the Exile's connections to them. It is likely her force sight/ connection was clouded by the Emperor's shoud.

Revan was trained for a few weeks. And it doesn't matter as even with his little training, Revan was still likely the most powerful Jedi in the order; defeating Star Forge empowered Malak even with his 'limited training'.
And do you really think Revan just stopped training and then when rusty as shit went off to fight the most powerful force user up to that date?

Knowledge does not ~ Someone with the skill/ power/ mastery of the force to use it. Considering even in the 'Golden Age of the Jedi' we only see one supremely competent user of the technique it is not farfetched that Satele was the only one of her age as well.

Bullshit they haven't. The woman is a liar, her bloodly name is Traya, for treachery. Not a single statement of hers can be taken with absolute certainty.

Different mechanics. Even if they were the same technique the operate differently.

When have Plo Koon, Obi-Wan, or Rahm Kota absorbed the lighting of anyone of note? Also could someone post the quote of Kota absorbing Apprentice Galen's lightning.

And what proof do you have that Giga Drain can bypass the force shielding of a sufficiently powerful force user?

The only thing you have saying that Kriea's drain is unblockable is Kreia a dubious source.

No probs

They are similar enough. And the word, unless proven otherwise is not a fancy way of saying it. He speaks and all hell breaks loose across the planet.

Even more proof.

I agree it is awesome I am an active subscriber, but that does not change the fact that the Revan's story is pretty crappy, Malgus' role could have been made larger, and the Voice of the Emperor could have been made better. I also think that Act I of the JK and the JC should have been switched. It's ridiculous that the JK has a companion who is a Child of the Emperor, and yet the JC is the one tracking them down.

Considering your only defense has consistently been. 'Lol cuz Kreia said so.' No you have not dealt with this.

No there's no way to prove she was boosted by it. And given that you are on the affirmative that is your job. It is not up to me to prove a negative. Concession accepted. Happy Dance

Ascendancy

Originally posted by Q99
They probably can handle that, actually.

Nomi's wall of light is effectively 'Jedi sorcery' that can collectively use the power of a group.

They're all prepared and force-meditated by someone who sits in safety.

And there's 4 of them to those 3 Sith Lords.

The combination of numbers of meditation really gives them an edge.

The Uber drain is not the only overwhelming power on the quarter's side.

Again, Zannah and Bane managed a 4 v 2 battle with foes, three of whom were Jedi Masters, aided by Battle Meditation with Zannah not even at peak ability. If both she and Bane are at full strength and knowledge and aided by Malak at peak plus boosting by the Star Forge then I'd say they are capable of surviving a 4 v 3 encounter.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Pwned
I don't see why that would make her more likely to say there is a way to defend against it. Like I said earlier, I agree she may have suspected that the Exile had a way to survive the attack, but she did not know that.

In fact, this kind of spiraled out of the original point somehow. I brought up that I believe Tutamnis can defend against the Giga Drain that they use on a small group of people. (Not the planet destroying one) So all of this is irrelevant to the argument anyways.

There is also not a need to educate me. I r smurt eenuff tew no dees sduf awn mai owhn D:<

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8f2tatzMg1qle2gr.gif

Well you clearly do, as you're unable to understand why Kreia wanting to have the Exile fight Nihilus would mean that she'd be less inclined to tell the Exile that theres no way to beat him.

It doesn't matter whether she knew or merely suspected. She isn't planning on fighting the Exile until after she'd fought Nihilus, as I've shown. And after fighting Nihilus they would both know whether she was immune or not.

And that's a completely unfounded belief with nothing to support it, so I rightly just ignored it.

Col. Valerian

Exactly... That's actually why Kreia valued the Exile so much. Because she believed that within her, was the opportunity to destroy the Force.

That's exactly why she wanted her to face Nihilus first. If Nihilus wasn't stopped, not only the Force, the entire galaxy would've been reduced to ashes eventually. That she didn't want. She knew the Exile was a wound in the Force and that Nihilus would not be able to drain her. Or at least, she thought so, and that's exactly why she wanted her to face him. And she was right.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not denying that what DS Exile and Nihlus do are the exact same thing, I am denying that the same mechanics (it being unblockable and cannot be taught) cannot be applied to the drain that Kreia and the Sith Assassins use.

'The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out.' - The Sith Assassins use the same technique as Nihilus. But I'm sure that just because the Exile, Nihilus and the Sith Assassin's all use the same technique that it doesn't mean that Kreia does as well, right. wink

Recall that Kreia was refering to Nihilus stripping her of her own power when she said that the technique couldn't be blocked. Nihilus didn't use the technique to its full planet-sized might on her, did he? He did it subtly over time.

And you're point is entirely without merit. Kreia's words are 'There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense.' She does not say 'There are techniques that when you reach a certain level they become impossible to block', she says 'techniques' period. As in the techniques she's talking about in their entirety have no defense.

You have absolutely no evidence that its only Nihilus' technique that can't be blocked. None.

At this point, I am merely humoring you. no expression

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You missed my point. My point is what the Exile and Nihlus do are different from Kreia in one way or another mechanic wise.

And you somehow managed not to quote the part where I discussed the trifling matter of the orange laser.

Basically you're just flat out wrong on the mechanics being different. We know that after Kreia killed the Master's their bodies were completely drained off the Force. Now watch this conversation on the Sith assassins and Nihilus:

RLoWb8KXvVo&feature

5.42 onwards.

Or you can read me spell it out for you:

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out. No one again must experience and learn what her master did."

"How are they able to drain the Force?'

" As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely."

"But all life is touched by the Force."

"Then you understand how terrible such a power is. And why it must be ended.It is an empty road to the dark side, and by traveling it, the price is death before one's time."

TL;DR, They drain the Force, and they drain it completely. AKA:

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2048/img-20.JPG

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Concession accepted. Happy Dance

As I have demonstrated, your logic is faulty. Therefore the fallacy doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
On Droumond Kaas it is likely that the Dark Side clouded the Exile's connections to them. It is likely her force sight/ connection was clouded by the Emperor's shoud.

This seems very fanwanky.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Revan was trained for a few weeks. And it doesn't matter as even with his little training, Revan was still likely the most powerful Jedi in the order; defeating Star Forge empowered Malak even with his 'limited training'.
And do you really think Revan just stopped training and then when rusty as shit went off to fight the most powerful force user up to that date?

Being powerful doesn't make him well trained.

No, I think he started to recover his memories including those to do with his Force Mastery.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Knowledge does not ~ Someone with the skill/ power/ mastery of the force to use it. Considering even in the 'Golden Age of the Jedi' we only see one supremely competent user of the technique it is not farfetched that Satele was the only one of her age as well.

Pfft, so? The study of tutaminis was taught during the very first classes at Jedi academies, as per The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force. It's not as if it was some uber rare technique. Yeah its harder to do with powerful techniques or against lightsabers, but its bullshit to think that not one of the Jedi Masters on Katarr knew how to do it.

And I notice that you all but admitted that Kreia would have knowledge of the technique.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Bullshit they haven't. The woman is a liar, her bloodly name is Traya, for treachery. Not a single statement of hers can be taken with absolute certainty.

As I have proven, it is entirely illogical and against her best interests to be lying about this.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Different mechanics. Even if they were the same technique the operate differently.

You've been entirely impotent at proving that they operate differently.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
When have Plo Koon, Obi-Wan, or Rahm Kota absorbed the lighting of anyone of note? Also could someone post the quote of Kota absorbing Apprentice Galen's lightning.

It says that Kota could do it in his database entry in the Force Unleashed as I recall. I'm not too sure about Plo Koon, but Obi-Wan did it in the RotS video game.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And what proof do you have that Giga Drain can bypass the force shielding of a sufficiently powerful force user?

Are you suggesting that Kreia isn't knowledgeable of a Force Shield?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The only thing you have saying that Kriea's drain is unblockable is Kreia a dubious source.

And the absence of anything at all suggesting that it can be blocked.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
They are similar enough. And the word, unless proven otherwise is not a fancy way of saying it. He speaks and all hell breaks loose across the planet.

He doesn't speak when he attempt to drain the Exile.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Even more proof.

If you say so. no expression

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I agree it is awesome I am an active subscriber, but that does not change the fact that the Revan's story is pretty crappy, Malgus' role could have been made larger, and the Voice of the Emperor could have been made better. I also think that Act I of the JK and the JC should have been switched. It's ridiculous that the JK has a companion who is a Child of the Emperor, and yet the JC is the one tracking them down.

Gotta agree with you there. It should have been the Jedi Knight who was focused on all things to do with the Emperor and the Jedi Consular who was running around trying to stop a war and save dudes, dealing with the rest of the Sith.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No there's no way to prove she was boosted by it. And given that you are on the affirmative that is your job. It is not up to me to prove a negative. Concession accepted. Happy Dance

Well almost your entire argument is that 'she wasn't boosted when she used it'. Which is a stupid argument since you don't know if she was or not. In the end it's impossible to prove one way or the other.

Q99

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Again, Zannah and Bane managed a 4 v 2 battle with foes, three of whom were Jedi Masters, aided by Battle Meditation with Zannah not even at peak ability. If both she and Bane are at full strength and knowledge and aided by Malak at peak plus boosting by the Star Forge then I'd say they are capable of surviving a 4 v 3 encounter.

Yes, but those Jedi were not near as strong as these 4.

Not a single one of those Jedi were on the level of Nomi, and two of them were weak enough that their partners regularly had to cover for them- one of them was a newbie who was more hinderance than help.

Of the four, you had one blastmaster who had little in the way of force defense, one who was strong in the force but had weak bladework, one dead weight, and only one who took on a Sith one-on-one and held their own at any point.

A lot different than Nomi, Kreia, Shan, Exile, who are all four complete packages and fight some of the most powerful Sith of their time solo (except for Kreia, of course, but she has her force drain thingy).

Pwned

Originally posted by Nephthys Well you clearly do, as you're unable to understand why Kreia wanting to have the Exile fight Nihilus would mean that she'd be less inclined to tell the Exile that theres no way to beat him.

It doesn't matter whether she knew or merely suspected. She isn't planning on fighting the Exile until after she'd fought Nihilus, as I've shown. And after fighting Nihilus they would both know whether she was immune or not.

And that's a completely unfounded belief with nothing to support it, so I rightly just ignored it. Or, y'know, specific statements of blocking any harmful techniques beats the word of a liar who uses such a technique.

Really, your saying, "Nu uh" at this point, as you have not proven that Kreia was telling the truth.

Kreia also had plans that would eliminate Nihilus' ship, as we can draw the probably correct conclusion that he can not survive in a vacuum. Meaning even if the Exile went down, Nihilus would die. Kreia would then attempt to create another Wound. And probably fail.

I don't see where you get Kreia's plans from anyways. I doubt they have been spelled out, and Kreia herself wouldn't tell you.

Nephthys

'Any' harmful technique? erm

Ascendancy

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, but those Jedi were not near as strong as these 4.

Not a single one of those Jedi were on the level of Nomi, and two of them were weak enough that their partners regularly had to cover for them- one of them was a newbie who was more hinderance than help.

Of the four, you had one blastmaster who had little in the way of force defense, one who was strong in the force but had weak bladework, one dead weight, and only one who took on a Sith one-on-one and held their own at any point.

A lot different than Nomi, Kreia, Shan, Exile, who are all four complete packages and fight some of the most powerful Sith of their time solo (except for Kreia, of course, but she has her force drain thingy).
Johun was the only sandbagger. Farfalla was noted for the battles he was in, with Raskta and Sarro being proficient with sabers to say the least. Bane's prowess with sabers was well-established by this point and Zannah is capable of defending herself to a pretty high though lesser extent, which would have only improved by the time she reached her peak. Again, Bane is protected and amped by Orbelisks and Malgus is empowered by the Star Forge. Not belittling the women in any way, but Bane's lighting, TK, and force wave were close to ridiculous, especially if amplified by the rage of the Orbelisks.

I'm happy to change my opinion about the battle if you discuss why the women would overwhelm. Simply noting that they were strong and are now amplified by BM is not enough. Cite abilities. Sidious took down two of the three best Jedi duelists before they knew what hit them, so simply outnumbering a Sith or Jedi does not guarantee victory.

As to the Wall of Light, Nomi led THOUSANDS of jedi in using it. It's clearly not a power that a single Jedi can use against a Lord because it requires possessing enough power to contain and immobilize the Sith as well. Even simply using it agains Kun's spirit took multiple Jedi when he reappeared. It also requires immense concentration, meaning that likely all four will be focused on utilizing it. That would be fine if that didn't leave two other Sith Lords free to do as they please. It also doesn't mean that the Jedi have the prowess to overcome Zannah's sorcery simply because they have some of their own, especially when Zannah can unleash her's with alacrity to say the least.

Q99

Yea, but you still had one sandbagger, and Farfalla, while noted for some battle skills, still wasn't the level of any of these four.

That battle force had quite significantly less power than this bunch.

She did that against Exar Kun with all of his stuff and thousands of warriors to draw on. But she also didn't need thousands of Jedi to use it to severe force on Qel-Droma, a very powerful Sith lord.

And it is a wall, it's not necessarily a single-target affair.

Two of the best of the time, but by 'of the time' we're talking, maybe in the top 20 of the order. Only Fisto was top 10.

These four are all extremely powerful who were some of the very best of their time. Nomi was the strongest Jedi of her era without much doubt, and is remembered as one of the strongest of all time thousands of years later. Satele Shan is the Grand Master who fights with rather powerful Sith, and the Exile of course beat Sion, Nihilus, and Kreia, something I don't think even Fisto could come close to doing, let alone those other two.

And of course there's Kreia herself, who has the hard-to-defend against force drain and has fought against masters 3-on-1 and won, but she's not even the main threat here. She'll be, like, force-draining her opponents while they've got uber Jedi in their faces.

Ascendancy

It's already been declared that the Uber-drain is not in effect here.

Pwned

Originally posted by Nephthys
'Any' harmful technique? erm

You know what I meant. Some techniques have been stated by reliable sources to be unblockable. Sadly, Kreia is not that reliable due to her homicidal plans. Personally, I would be fine if it were unblockable. It would be of the 1% that is, and considering how exactly 2 people could actually use the technique, and its the only thing that really keeps them contending for a high spot. Nihilus has great TK, but there has been better.

Q99

Originally posted by Ascendancy
It's already been declared that the Uber-drain is not in effect here.

Even if it's not uber-drain, it's still an attack while people are busy fighting uber Jedi!

Or heck, just her going in with sabers while the Sith are occupied.

Pwned

Personally, I see them losing at Bane. With his orbalisks, he is nearly unstoppable. It would take one of the top 3 Force Users ever to take him out, IMO.

Nephthys

Yet he was being pushed back by 3 Jedi when they were boosted by BM.

Pwned

A blade master, said to be the best in the Order, and another Jedi Master, as well as a loser Jedi Knight farther into the fight. All empowered by BM. All at once.

I was talking in a 1-1 scenario, not 3-1. Teams could take him down, but usually they will lose at least one member.

Nephthys

Good point. Although this is a team fight, which is what I was more referring to, his companions aren't exactly slackers who'll let Bane to be triple-teamed.

Originally posted by Pwned
Or, y'know, specific statements of blocking any harmful techniques beats the word of a liar who uses such a technique.

Really, your saying, "Nu uh" at this point, as you have not proven that Kreia was telling the truth.

Kreia also had plans that would eliminate Nihilus' ship, as we can draw the probably correct conclusion that he can not survive in a vacuum. Meaning even if the Exile went down, Nihilus would die. Kreia would then attempt to create another Wound. And probably fail.

I don't see where you get Kreia's plans from anyways. I doubt they have been spelled out, and Kreia herself wouldn't tell you.

Apologies for ignoring this for so long.

Nowhere is it stated that Tutaminis can block all harmful techniques. You alluded to something yet havn't provided a single source or quote. Furthermore in your later post you indicate that there are actually unblockable techniques. So..... wtf?

I've proven that she has no reason to lie and that it would be illogical and detrimental for her to have done so. Just because you seem not to be capable of comprehending my arguments does not mean that they do not exist.

No, Kreia had no such plan. The Mandalorian's planned to blow up the Ravager. I'm not actually sure where you got the idea that Kreia had a plan to blow it up. Have you, perchance, been supping on moonjuice?

Y-You don't see where I'm getting Kreia's plans from? Despite the fact that I wrote out a very detailed breakdown of what she did and why she chose to do those things? Despite the fact that I very clearly explained everything to you? Are you illiterate or did you just not read that post? Because it's on the very same page as this reply of yours. Why don't you read it again and this time think a little. Something something not being mean something.

Unless you mean how I know her overall plan to destroy the Force. In which case...... she tells you it. Duh.

Arhael

Remember, when I argued that Marek's power rivals Palpatine, everyone kept throwing "no match" quote from Complete Encyclopedia in my face. Now it's time for retalation.

Here are proofs that Nihilus couldn't consume planets:

1. Complete Encyclopedia:
"It was rumored that he could consume the Force energy of an entire planet." - It's only a rumor.

2. Complete Encyclopedia:
"Darth Nihilus began his Jedi purge by obliterating the planet Katarr" - It doesn't say that he Force drained the planet.

3. Complete Encyclopedia:
"In the meantime, Darth Nihilus led his Sith forces from his flagship, Ravager, drawing more and more power from worlds that he blasted into ruin." - This is too specific to be interpreted as consuming planets. Force drain doesn't blast ANYTHING into ruins, however, orbital bombardment does precisely that. In other words Nihilus did the same thing as Kueller - one of Luke's fallen Jedi. He initiated mass killings without Force use and fed on anguish of sudden death of others.

Proves that Meetra was not Force wound:

1. 00:10-00:20
lVum8wsBTnk - Meetra gets Force drained by Traya.

2. Complete Encyclopedia:
"On the mission to destroy Telos, Darth Nihilus finally was confronted by the Exile and her team.
Although Darth Nihilus managed to stun the Exile, he was unprepared for the devotion of his former pupil Marr to the young woman. Marr tried to exchange her life for that of the Exile, giving the former Jedi time to recover. Together, they confronted Darth Nihilus. The Sith Lord was no match for their combined might, and he fell in battle." - Nihilus did not try to drain Meetra. He is not stated to be weakened, Marr simply gave Meetra time to recover. He was simply "no match for their combined might".

3. Revan novel:
"Once he had tried to reach out to her with the Force. Serving in battle with someone formed a special bond; even across the breadth of the galaxy he should have been able to get some vague sense of her presence" - As you see Meetra's ability to develop Force bonds is not the result of Wound in the Force. Revan had Force bond with he prior to Malacor V. Similarly Luke developed strong Force bond with Mara and that resulted in their relationship. New Order developed battle meld technique that allowed Jedi to merge minds and draw strength from each other. So there is nothing special with Meetra's ability to do that.

4. Complete Encyclopedia:
"After the Jedi exile traveled to Onderon and defeated General Vaklu, Kreia realized that her "pupil" was growing in strength and would become a threat to her treumverate of power. She tried to kill her on Dantooin, but fled." - This is prove that game story branch, where she saves Exile and kills masters, is non-canon. It, also, invalidates her only feat of giga drain making it non-canon as well.

Overally there is no prove that Nihilus or Traya's drain could kill and that it cannot be resisted.
Moreover, there is no prove that someone could become Force wound. Both giga drain that could kill and ability to become Force wound are not documented in any canon sources. Therefore, Traya made it all up and it's been proven that she is liar. As for Jedi Master's claim, well, they are simply fools.

And now with this evidence it becomes clear why Nihilus failed to drain not only Exile but Marr and Mandalor as well.

Nephthys

Oh dear. Earning my ire so soon after our last tussle? It seems you really do want me to punish you. <3

UltimateAnomaly

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh dear. Earning my ire so soon after our last tussle? It seems you really do want me to punish you. <3

QFT thumb up

Nephthys

Originally posted by Arhael
Remember, when I argued that Marek's power rivals Palpatine, everyone kept throwing "no match" quote from Complete Encyclopedia in my face. Now it's time for retalation.

Here are proofs that Nihilus couldn't consume planets:

1. Complete Encyclopedia:
"It was rumored that he could consume the Force energy of an entire planet." - It's only a rumor.

Except that we see it occur in Unseen, Unheard.

Originally posted by Arhael
2. Complete Encyclopedia:
"Darth Nihilus began his Jedi purge by obliterating the planet Katarr" - It doesn't say that he Force drained the planet.

'How did destroy her homeworld.'

'It is a technique almost as old as the Sith itself.... it is a means of severing the connections between life, the Force, and feeding on the death it brings.'

'And he used it to kill an entire planet?!'

'Yes, and he fed upon it's destruction. It will sustain him... for a time.'

Originally posted by Arhael
3. Complete Encyclopedia:
"In the meantime, Darth Nihilus led his Sith forces from his flagship, Ravager, drawing more and more power from worlds that he blasted into ruin." - This is too specific to be interpreted as consuming planets. Force drain doesn't blast ANYTHING into ruins, however, orbital bombardment does precisely that. In other words Nihilus did the same thing as Kueller - one of Luke's fallen Jedi. He initiated mass killings without Force use and fed on anguish of sudden death of others.

As we see in Unseen, Unheard Nihilus' attack razed the planets surface. Also you missed out where it says he was 'drawing more and more power from worlds.' What power do you think thats refering to? The power of love?

Originally posted by Arhael
Proves that Meetra was not Force wound:

1. 00:10-00:20
lVum8wsBTnk - Meetra gets Force drained by Traya.

Non-canon as its the darkside ending.

Also its possible that Kreia incapacitated the Exile through their Force Bond.

Originally posted by Arhael
2. Complete Encyclopedia:
"On the mission to destroy Telos, Darth Nihilus finally was confronted by the Exile and her team.
Although Darth Nihilus managed to stun the Exile, he was unprepared for the devotion of his former pupil Marr to the young woman. Marr tried to exchange her life for that of the Exile, giving the former Jedi time to recover. Together, they confronted Darth Nihilus. The Sith Lord was no match for their combined might, and he fell in battle." - Nihilus did not try to drain Meetra. He is not stated to be weakened, Marr simply gave Meetra time to recover. He was simply "no match for their combined might".

Except we see him attempt to drain her in the actual game.

Originally posted by Arhael
3. Revan novel:
"Once he had tried to reach out to her with the Force. Serving in battle with someone formed a special bond; even across the breadth of the galaxy he should have been able to get some vague sense of her presence" - As you see Meetra's ability to develop Force bonds is not the result of Wound in the Force. Revan had Force bond with he prior to Malacor V. Similarly Luke developed strong Force bond with Mara and that resulted in their relationship. New Order developed battle meld technique that allowed Jedi to merge minds and draw strength from each other. So there is nothing special with Meetra's ability to do that.

The Jedi Council mentions that the Exile had a special gift at forming Force Bonds with others even when she was a Jedi. However, her ability with that has gotten much stronger since then.

Originally posted by Arhael
4. Complete Encyclopedia:
"After the Jedi exile traveled to Onderon and defeated General Vaklu, Kreia realized that her "pupil" was growing in strength and would become a threat to her treumverate of power. She tried to kill her on Dantooin, but fled." - This is prove that game story branch, where she saves Exile and kills masters, is non-canon. It, also, invalidates her only feat of giga drain making it non-canon as well.

Clearly non-canon as that's what happens in the darkside ending, which Revan establishes did not take place. Meetra Surik is canonically a Lightside practitioner.

Also as an aside that simply makes no goddamn sense since the Exile is completely helpless and unconscious in that scene. Kreia could have killed her any time she wanted. If she'd have tired to kill her she would have succeeded! Who wrote this thing?

Originally posted by Arhael
Moreover, there is no prove that someone could become Force wound.

I'm pretty sure that Chris Avellone, the writer of Kotor 2 has stated that she was a Force Wound in a interview.

Arhael

Considering that your emo animations were eating my phone battery hell lot faster, YES. pissed

Oh, yes. This comic is as canon as CW cartoon, where Yoda destroyed two starships of star destroyer size. Encyclopaedia overrides it in any case.

Also, it is from "Star Wars Tales". It is a story from point of view of Visas Marr. So it doesn't qualify as a proof.

Traya is a liar. Krayt learned Force drain from Nihilus and he has never shown the abilty to kill with it. Also, when Krayt utilized the technique, it did not sever from the Force.

No I didn't miss anything. Kueller with use of detonators achieved simulanious death of everyone on Almania. He fed on death and anguish it caused getting more powerful. Same thing did many characters like Scourge, Sidious, Abeloth and many others. They all fed on emotions released into the Force upon death or suffering.

She was still Wound in the Force, game creator showed that it works on Exile. The game shows what could happen to Wounded character, it's all that matters.

Which is only one of several possibilities, which doesn't have to be selected. And Complete Encyclopaedia proves that it didn't happen. In any case the game proves that Exile could resist it but it doesn't prove that she could do it because she is a Wound in the Force and that she was the only one capable. We see Krayt suffering from darkside power drained from Abeloth. Maybe lightside power backfired on Nihilus similar way.

In other words Wound plays no role in it, that's exactly what I meant.

It comes from Complete Star Wars Encyclopidea where she is established as lightsider, which is newer canon that
says what really happened. It is, also, newer canon that overrides old one.

It's 100% canon, deal with it. (c) - Nephthys
rolling on floor laughing

I will remind you that he is not Lucas to take his opinion as canon. If it was canon, it would be documented in other material. There are plenty of encyclopaedias about characters and the Force. If Force Wound and Force drain that cannot be resisted without it were real things, then at list one source would document it.

Pwned

Originally posted by Nephthys
Good point. Although this is a team fight, which is what I was more referring to, his companions aren't exactly slackers who'll let Bane to be triple-teamed.

Apologies for ignoring this for so long.

Nowhere is it stated that Tutaminis can block all harmful techniques. You alluded to something yet havn't provided a single source or quote. Furthermore in your later post you indicate that there are actually unblockable techniques. So..... wtf?

I've proven that she has no reason to lie and that it would be illogical and detrimental for her to have done so. Just because you seem not to be capable of comprehending my arguments does not mean that they do not exist.

No, Kreia had no such plan. The Mandalorian's planned to blow up the Ravager. I'm not actually sure where you got the idea that Kreia had a plan to blow it up. Have you, perchance, been supping on moonjuice?

Y-You don't see where I'm getting Kreia's plans from? Despite the fact that I wrote out a very detailed breakdown of what she did and why she chose to do those things? Despite the fact that I very clearly explained everything to you? Are you illiterate or did you just not read that post? Because it's on the very same page as this reply of yours. Why don't you read it again and this time think a little. Something something not being mean something.

Unless you mean how I know her overall plan to destroy the Force. In which case...... she tells you it. Duh. Actually, I had been sleep deprived due to problems with my family. Stayed up all night in the ER, so I wasn't quite thinking at all yesterday.

I'll go back and read them, then get back to you on it. K? stick out tongue

And you know, it ocurred to me that Katarr may not actually have burned. Its told from the viewpoint of Visas, and Miralukas see through the Force.... Is it possible she saw the actual wave of energy that was sucking the life from everything, and the only way she could comprehend it was as fire?

Q99

Originally posted by Pwned
Personally, I see them losing at Bane. With his orbalisks, he is nearly unstoppable. It would take one of the top 3 Force Users ever to take him out, IMO.

You've got Nomi boosted by battle meditation, and a numbers edge. I think that's close enough.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Good point. Although this is a team fight, which is what I was more referring to, his companions aren't exactly slackers who'll let Bane to be triple-teamed.

Since it's 4-on-1, *someone* is getting at least double teamed. And then once one sith falls, that'll be it.

Pwned

Originally posted by Q99
You've got Nomi boosted by battle meditation, and a numbers edge. I think that's close enough.

Since it's 4-on-1, *someone* is getting at least double teamed. And then once one sith falls, that'll be it. Personally, I see her as the only person who can really pose a threat. The Exile and Traya don't have too many feats for sabers, and it seems to me that the Exile is the Johun of this group XD

Regardless, I see a scenario similiar to Tython for them.

Q99

Originally posted by Pwned
Personally, I see her as the only person who can really pose a threat. The Exile and Traya don't have too many feats for sabers, and it seems to me that the Exile is the Johun of this group XD

Exile was better than Sion with sabers, wasn't she? And Nihilus?

Even if she's the Johun of this group, she's waaaay better than their Johun smile

Johun wasn't even master level and Exile walks around with three sith lord heads on her belt.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
'The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out.' - The Sith Assassins use the same technique as Nihilus. But I'm sure that just because the Exile, Nihilus and the Sith Assassin's all use the same technique that it doesn't mean that Kreia does as well, right. wink

I will not concede that there is no defense to the technique. Because in that entire schpheel Kreia did Kreia say there is no defense against the technique that they use. In fact now that I look at it when she says 'There are techniques within the force against which there is no defense' she is referring to sever force. In Kreia's Fall Nihlus does not use any draining techniques.

Except that is obviously not the same technique. Sever force is a different technique than Force Drain.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sever_Force
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_drain

What Nihlus did is clearly Sever Force.

Sever force can't be blocked I agree. Rewatching Kreia's fall has made it pretty clear that he did not Force Drain her, but rather cut her off from the force.

You can save the bravado Baras, no one is buying it.

At the highest level it is unblockable, I agree. And I agree that Sever Force is unblockable.
If Darth Nihlus who has the most powerful TK in the verse force pushes someone, and no one can block against it, am I to assume some fodder Sith also can produce an unblockable TK?

Force techniques depend on the user.

The fallacy does exist. Your point that Kreia was trying to get the Exile to win/beat her is dubious at best.

Many Force bonds seem to be diminished by a significant enough distance. Like when Kreia fled to Malachor V her bond with the Exile broke.

Your opinion not fact.

And Shi-Cho is taught to all Padawans. That does not mean that they can all fight off General Grievous. It is not bullshit because again there have been two Jedi Masters in the whole damned Mythos who have been shown to be able to absorb and redirect lightning.

You proved nothing. Her name is Darth Traya, she is perhaps the biggest master of lies in the history of the Galaxy, rivaled only by Palpatine.

I've been as potent as I was during the night of your conception.

So you lied. Because I've played the ROTS video game and never saw Kenobi use it. And if he did it was against Anakin, who's usage of force lightning on Mustafar is non-canon.

I am saying may not have ever encountered a powerful user of Force shield like TOR:Revan Revan, or Yoda

Before AOTC we had never seen force lightning being blocked either. That didn't mean it couldn't be.

Because he wasn't using his Thought Bomb.

And much of the Dark Council was shafted. I mean 4 of them are offed in Republic world arcs, not even heroics.

I feel like my argument has gotten off track. Here is my argument.
In Kreia's fall which to my knowledge is the only time she says there are techniques against which there is no defense, Darth Nihlus cuts her off from the force. He uses force sever there, which makes sense there being no defense against that.

1. Kreia also discusses an advanced version of Force Drain that she uses against the Jedi Masters on Dantooine.
2. Darth Nihlus uses what appears closest to be Thought Bomb on Katarr.
3. Darth Nihlus uses an advanced version of Force Drain on the Exile and it fails.
4. Darth Nihlus uses Sever Force on Kreia

1 and 3 are the same.
1 and 2 are not, 1 and 4 are not, 4 and 3 are not.

Nephthys

We should rename this thread 'People arguing with Nephthys.' 3 replies, gosh, I'm a popular boy.

Pwned

Its your complete manliness. It attracts everybody, even heterosexuals. They then feel the need to argue with you to attempt to bring out their own manliness.

There are no exceptions.

Q99

Originally posted by Nephthys
We should rename this thread 'People arguing with Nephthys.' 3 replies, gosh, I'm a popular boy.

I'm having a completely unrelated side discussion with pwned about who would win the fight smile

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I will not concede that there is no defense to the technique.

Well then this discussion is pointless since you've made up your mind and stuck your head in the ground over it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Because in that entire schpheel Kreia did Kreia say there is no defense against the technique that they use. In fact now that I look at it when she says 'There are techniques within the force against which there is no defense' she is referring to sever force. In Kreia's Fall Nihlus does not use any draining techniques.

"Darth Traya teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights -- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross." -- KotOR Campaign Guide, page 160.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except that is obviously not the same technique. Sever force is a different technique than Force Drain.

"Darth Traya teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights -- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross." -- KotOR Campaign Guide, page 160.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sever_Force
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_drain

"Darth Traya teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights -- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross." -- KotOR Campaign Guide, page 160.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
What Nihlus did is clearly Sever Force.

"Darth Traya teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights -- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross." -- KotOR Campaign Guide, page 160.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Sever force can't be blocked I agree.

You mean other than the fact that we see Exar Kun clearly resist it?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Rewatching Kreia's fall has made it pretty clear that he did not Force Drain her, but rather cut her off from the force.

"Darth Traya teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights -- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross." -- KotOR Campaign Guide, page 160.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You can save the bravado Baras, no one is buying it.

http://api.ning.com/files/K8c2NVFB3z3uCZHBwdxCMXJwkdcZrW70wAk-wywscKypj3cWSoQdv8NiMc-ahH7*tjAZA4SrZDzYglMsAm3RzQ__/DarthBaras.jpg

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
At the highest level it is unblockable, I agree. And I agree that Sever Force is unblockable.

It isn't Force Sever, and there's nothing indicating the Nihilus' technique only becomes unblockable at a high level.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The fallacy does exist. Your point that Kreia was trying to get the Exile to win/beat her is dubious at best.

What? The fallacy that you were initially referring to was that Kreia and Nihilus' techniques are the same. Not only have I proved that they are the same, but that no such fallacy exists as well.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Many Force bonds seem to be diminished by a significant enough distance. Like when Kreia fled to Malachor V her bond with the Exile broke.

It did?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Your opinion not fact.

Well it seems to be the only one around here thats actually close to it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And Shi-Cho is taught to all Padawans. That does not mean that they can all fight off General Grievous. It is not bullshit because again there have been two Jedi Masters in the whole damned Mythos who have been shown to be able to absorb and redirect lightning.

And we are not talking about lightning are we, so how is that at all relevent?!

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You proved nothing. Her name is Darth Traya, she is perhaps the biggest master of lies in the history of the Galaxy, rivaled only by Palpatine.

"They used to call the devil the father of lies. But for someone whose sin is meant to be pride, you'd think that lying would leave something of a sour taste. So my theory is that when the devil wants to get something out of you, he doesn't lie at all. He tells you the exact, literal truth. And he lets you find your own way to hell."

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I've been as potent as I was during the night of your conception.

So, non-existent?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So you lied. Because I've played the ROTS video game and never saw Kenobi use it. And if he did it was against Anakin, who's usage of force lightning on Mustafar is non-canon.

No, I'm merely telling you what Wookieepedia says.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am saying may not have ever encountered a powerful user of Force shield like TOR:Revan Revan, or Yoda.

Yeah, because Kreia's never even heard of Revan. no expression

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Before AOTC we had never seen force lightning being blocked either. That didn't mean it couldn't be.

True, and I've never claimed that a defense is impossible. All I've said is that no such defense can be proven to exist.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Because he wasn't using his Thought Bomb.

Uh-huh. no expression

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And much of the Dark Council was shafted. I mean 4 of them are offed in Republic world arcs, not even heroics.

Well a bunch of Jedi Council Members get taken out as well. At least 2 or 3 from the Jedi Knight story alone.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I feel like my argument has gotten off track. Here is my argument.
In Kreia's fall which to my knowledge is the only time she says there are techniques against which there is no defense, Darth Nihlus cuts her off from the force. He uses force sever there, which makes sense there being no defense against that.

Well he doesn't, so you're off to a great start here already.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
1. Kreia also discusses an advanced version of Force Drain that she uses against the Jedi Masters on Dantooine.

Oh so now you admit that its the same as the technique the other characters use, huh?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
2. Darth Nihlus uses what appears closest to be Thought Bomb on Katarr.

Sure he does. yes

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
3. Darth Nihlus uses an advanced version of Force Drain on the Exile and it fails.

Actually true (sort of). Well done! thumb up

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
4. Darth Nihlus uses Sever Force on Kreia

.... not so true. sad

Nephthys

Originally posted by Pwned
Actually, I had been sleep deprived due to problems with my family. Stayed up all night in the ER, so I wasn't quite thinking at all yesterday.

I'll go back and read them, then get back to you on it. K? stick out tongue

Aaaaaaand now I feel like a prick. sad

I'm sorry, I hope whatever happened turns out alright in the end. You take as long as you need to, none of this stuff is as important as real life problems.

Pwned

Originally posted by Nephthys
Aaaaaaand now I feel like a prick. sad

I'm sorry, I hope whatever happened turns out alright in the end. You take as long as you need to, none of this stuff is as important as real life problems. Its fine man, I didn't exactly say it aloud or anything.

My great grandmother lost the ability to walk for some reason, so I ended up staying in the waiting room all night. As far as I know, she is fine now as she was released being able to walk again. One of those random things life tosses at you, y'know? Just needing to keep an eye on her.

Nephthys

Yay!

http://i.imgur.com/loYs6.gif

Guilty feeling go bye bye.

Tzeentch._

Originally posted by Nephthys
Aaaaaaand now I feel like a prick. Welcome to the team, Neph.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/freakoutgif.gif

Nephthys

Noooooooooooooooo!

:darthvader:

Pwned

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yay!

http://i.imgur.com/loYs6.gif

Guilty feeling go bye bye. I enjoy that picture..... It made me laugh.... big grin

Nephthys

Adventure Time is the shit. thumb up

Tzeentch._

Originally posted by Nephthys
Adventure Time is shit. thumb up

Nephthys

http://zipmeme.com/uploads/generated/g1338934043617403741.jpg

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys

"Darth Traya teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights -- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross." -- KotOR Campaign Guide, page 160.
And yet she doesn't die, when everyone else is killed by it. Hmmm.

A natural resisting doesn't count as a defense according to you. Happy Dance

It's from the Sith Warrior story.

Yes there is. Comparing Kreia's force drain to Nihilus' is like comparing a turbolaser cannon to the Death Star.

You have proved nothing. Kreia is a liar, and she is the only source that says it is unblockable. Even the source books never say that. Character statements are fallacious by nature and can rarely be trusted from a Sith, let alone the self-proclaimed master of betrayal.

Yeah, did the Exile die when she killed Kreia?

Of course you'd think that it's your opinion.

Because you are saying. 'BS you're telling me none of the Jedi on Katarr knew how to use Tutaminis'. I'm simply saying that isn't farfetched.

Nice red herring you've got there.

If it was non-existent your mom wouldn't have popped you out. smokin'

The Wookiepedia is full of crap.

Kreia never met Revan post KOTOR. What's your point?

Sure there has been. It's called Tutaminis.

[
Uh-huh. no expression

Only Orgus Din canonically. And sure. But there are 6 JC members. Out of the 12 Dark Council Members, Arho, Archanon, Vengean, Baras, Thanaton, Hadra, Decimus, Jadus, and Ekkage all die.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And yet she doesn't die, when everyone else is killed by it. Hmmm.

Weird right? My guess is that he didn't drain her completely of the Force. Recall that she could still make her lightsaber wobble in that flashback. Nihilus and Sion probably didn't actually want to kill her. I mean, they obviously could have if they wanted to right?

Although, there is another possibility. Do you recall where you first meet Kreia perchance? wink

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
A natural resisting doesn't count as a defense according to you. Happy Dance

You know what I mean. Kun just shrugged it off. Which either means that he was too powerful to be affected or that he did defend himself from it. Either wouldn't fit into what Kreia says.

Plus Nihilus didn't use Force Sever to shut up you butt.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's from the Sith Warrior story.

http://www.terrariaonline.com/attachments/thats_the_joke-jpg.31014/

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes there is. Comparing Kreia's force drain to Nihilus' is like comparing a turbolaser cannon to the Death Star.

So what? They do the same thing. One's just bigger than the other. Theres nothing indicating that it suddenly gains the unblockable perk after it reaches level 20.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You have proved nothing. Kreia is a liar, and she is the only source that says it is unblockable. Even the source books never say that. Character statements are fallacious by nature and can rarely be trusted from a Sith, let alone the self-proclaimed master of betrayal.

You know nothing Mizukage Yoda. I proved that there's no reason for her to lie to the Exile since by the time the Exile fights her she'll know that's she's immune to the power. I also showed how if she was going to lie, she would have told her it could be blocked since she wants the Exile to challenge Nihilus. Theres absolutely nothing contradicting her story.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yeah, did the Exile die when she killed Kreia?

You know Kreia was lying when she said that right? Pretty much anyone you ask about that says that they've never heard of a bond that strong.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Of course you'd think that it's your opinion.

http://images.wikia.com/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/a/a5/Finn_CW_4.png

An opinion thats supported by actual facts rather than baseless speculation. B*tch.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Because you are saying. 'BS you're telling me none of the Jedi on Katarr knew how to use Tutaminis'. I'm simply saying that isn't farfetched.

And as I told you, the study of tutaminis was taught during the very first classes at Jedi academies, as per The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force. So nyeh.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Nice red herring you've got there.

My point was that Kreia doesn't actually lie all that much in the game. In fact, I can only think of about, oh, 3 or 4 lies that she tells you. She admits to a lot of stuff that she could easily have just lied about.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If it was non-existent your mom wouldn't have popped you out. smokin'

I meant that you didn't even exist when I was concieved. I'm 74 yearz old mothafvcka!

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Wookiepedia is full of crap.

Like your brain.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kreia never met Revan post KOTOR. What's your point?

That she'd know if an advanced Tutaminis user could block the freaking technique.

And Revan didn't get that much more powerful. Is there some magic line where the technique goes from 'unblockable by Tutaminis' to 'oh completely blockable'. That doesn't make any goddamn sense. If the technique merely overpowers defenses then Kreia wouldn't say theres no defense since thats still defending against it, merely unsuccessfully. She isn't a retard, she'd know that if you theres even some resistence then a defense is possible.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Sure there has been. It's called Tutaminis.

NO IT ISN'T! YOU'RE JUST MAKING THAT UP COMPLETELY UNSUPPORTED BY ANY EVIDENCE YOU POOP!

Consider that the Sith Assassin's use the power all the time to sython power from their opponents. Do you honestly think that in not one of their battles a Jedi used a Force Defense? If their technique could be blocked, they would know about it.

Furthermore, the technique as we see it in Unseen, Unheard is a giant black smoke cloud. How the **** can Tutaminis block smoke? Tutaminis blocks energy, not freaking smoke.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Only Orgus Din canonically. And sure. But there are 6 JC members. Out of the 12 Dark Council Members, Arho, Archanon, Vengean, Baras, Thanaton, Hadra, Decimus, Jadus, and Ekkage all die.

The others were corrupted. So I don't think they'll still be on the Council any time soon.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Heh, the mating call of the looooooooooooser!