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Force:
Sabers:
All out:
Locations: Palpatine's Senate office. Dooku can retreat to the Grand Convocation chamber if necessary.
Bonus Scenario: Throw in Ventress for Dooku.

Force - Dooku
Sabers- Team
All out- Depends... If Savage still can't defend against lightning Dooku could stand a chance. Still I'm inclined to say Team.

Dooku's good but he's not that good.

Well Dooku held his own against both Anakin (prior z0ne) and Obi-Wan quite well and I'd certainly put that duo above Savage and Maul.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku's good but he's not that good.

Lol. You think Sidious can Saber blitz these 2 out in 2 seconds, but Dooku can't defeat them??

It isn't as foolishly foolish as you think, you fool. Dooku has never blitzed 3 Jedi Council Members in 2 seconds to actually give him some feats at blitzing people, unlike Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku's good but he's not that good.

Dooku regularly fends off duo's of people on Maul and Savage's level.

Such as? As I recall he lost to Obi-Wan and Anakin.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Such as? As I recall he lost to Obi-Wan and Anakin.

He lost to Zoneakin who in my opinion would demolish the Zabrak bors. He stomped Kenobi effortlessly, were he faced with 2 Obi-Wans he would have won with moderate difficulty.

And would 2 Obi-Wans beat Maul and Oppress?

Currently Obi-Wan hasn't beaten both of them yet. When he does we can say that they suck dick, but not before.

Though seriously if he does beat them both they suck dick.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And would 2 Obi-Wans beat Maul and Oppress?

Currently Obi-Wan hasn't beaten both of them yet. When he does we can say that they suck dick, but not before.

Though seriously if he does beat them both they suck dick.

No but he is roughly on their level. The difference between ROTS Kenobi and CW Maul is not significant, I'd argue it's a toss up between the two. I don't see what's stopping Dooku from slamming a Senate Pod beneath Oppress then killing Maul.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He stomped Kenobi effortlessly, were he faced with 2 Obi-Wans he would have won with moderate difficulty.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No but he is roughly on their level. The difference between ROTS Kenobi and CW Maul is not significant, I'd argue it's a toss up between the two. I don't see what's stopping Dooku from slamming a Senate Pod beneath Oppress then killing Maul.

2 Obi-Wan's is basically like Obi-Wan and Ventress Imo.

Although I agree with you that ROTS Obi-Wan is likely on par with CW Maul, I'm not sure if Dooku could take out Maul or Savage as easily with the Force as he did Obi-Wan.

After all Savage has much greater Force feats than Obi-Wan, and Maul's supposed to be better than Savage. Plus they're both physical beasts who can likely take a lot of Force TK punishment.

Remember Dooku did fight Savage and Ventress, and it didn't seem like he could dispose of Savage as easily as he did ROTS Obi-Wan.

Dooku pwns Savage with lightning.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
2 Obi-Wan's is basically like Obi-Wan and Ventress Imo.

Although I agree with you that ROTS Obi-Wan is likely on par with CW Maul, I'm not sure if Dooku could take out Maul or Savage as easily with the Force as he did Obi-Wan.

After all Savage has much greater Force feats than Obi-Wan, and Maul's supposed to be better than Savage. Plus they're both physical beasts who can likely take a lot of Force TK punishment.

Remember Dooku did fight Savage and Ventress, and it didn't seem like he could dispose of Savage as easily as he did ROTS Obi-Wan.

That's because he was in a tiny room. If he were on the Invisible Hand, there is nothing saying he couldn't fling Savage across the room and crush him with a bridge.
People also seem to be forgetting that Dooku can retreat to the Grand Convocation chamber.

Originally posted by ares834
Dooku pwns Savage with lightning.

Yes, that worked out so well for him last time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, that worked out so well for him last time.

Catching Dooku offguard with a Force Choke does not equal resisting his TK.

Should of just kept zapping Savage. Poor dude was defenseless.

Originally posted by ares834
Should of just kept zapping Savage. Poor dude was defenseless.

He should have tossed him out of the window, then Saberraped Ventress.

^ I see Dooku's best chance here is if he can take advantage of Savage's lack of skill and Saber rape him first. That is possible.

But not convinced that he'll be TK'ing these two beasts around. He didn't do it to Ventress and Savage so I highly doubt he'll be doing it to Maul and Savage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ I see Dooku's best chance here is if he can take advantage of Savage's lack of skill and Saber rape him first. That is possible.

But not convinced that he'll be TK'ing these two beasts around. He didn't do it to Ventress and Savage so I highly doubt he'll be doing it to Maul and Savage.

Do you rank CW Ventress and Savage to be a superior duo to ROTS Skywalker and Kenobi who have some of the best synergy in the PT?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Do you rank CW Ventress and Savage to be a superior duo to ROTS Skywalker and Kenobi who have some of the best synergy in the PT?

No. Skywalker on his own has consistently satlemated Count Dooku during the CW.

But you don't seem to get that A>B>C doesn't work like that.

Just because ROTS Obi-Wan is in the same league as CW Maul, and possibly above Savage, doesn't mean they will be just as useless against a Force TK attack from Count Dooku as ROTS Obi-Wan was.

Put it this away who do you think is a superior duo, Ventress and Savage, or CW Maul & a better trained Savage??

Then think of how the fight with the less trained Savage and Ventress went.

Like I said Dooku can win this but it will depend on him Saber raping Savage first (taking advantage of his lack of training) and then left with a one on one against CW Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No. Skywalker on his own has consistently satlemated Count Dooku during the CW.
Dark Side empowered Skywalker would be more than capable of overwhelming the Zabrak duo in sabers alone.
And you use the term stalemate very loosely, Skywalker has lost everytime he faced Dooku during the Clone Wars. And the reason he lost is because of the Count's superior mastery of the force.



Considering Dooku defeats Skywalker and Kenobi consistently with the force it seems to suggest that Tyranus' force Mastery, not bladework is what puts him solidly above CW Skywalker and Kenobi. There hasn't been a single time Skywalker hasn't been helpless against Dooku's Lightning TK combo.



And what exactly has CW Maul and Savage shown to put their force shielding techniques above ROTS Skywalker and Kenobi?



Clearly the latter.


In a small enclosed space with no objects for Dooku to TK without them all getting spaced. If the duel happened on the Invisible Hand, I have no doubt that Ventress or Savage would have gotten the exact same treatment as Kenobi. The difference here is that Dooku is can retreat to the Grand Convocation chamber and use his force Mastery to outmanuver the duo.


So you believe the difference between Dooku's bladework and Savage's bladework is wider than the gap between Dooku's Force Mastery and Savage's Force Mastery.'?
I really don't think so. Dooku has studied the force for around seven decades compared to Savage's couple of years. He's a master swordsman yes, but I think his mastery of the force is just as, if not more deadly.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda



And what exactly has CW Maul and Savage shown to put their force shielding techniques above ROTS Skywalker and Kenobi?

The fact that Savage lasted much longer against Dooku is evidence. The best Dooku seemed to do was hold Savage at bay with his FL. So he used his Force powers on him but didn't permanently dispose of him.

Maul walking right through a Nightsisters FL. Also the fact that Dave Filoni has flat out said that Maul is very well trained in all the ways of the Sith .


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
In a small enclosed space with no objects for Dooku to TK without them all getting spaced. If the duel happened on the Invisible Hand, I have no doubt that Ventress or Savage would have gotten the exact same treatment as Kenobi. The difference here is that Dooku is can retreat to the Grand Convocation chamber and use his force Mastery to outmanuver the duo.

Small enclosed space shouldn't stop Dooku Force choking anyone. The fact that a Rage enhanced Savage choked Dooku and Ventress doesn't help your case.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So you believe the difference between Dooku's bladework and Savage's bladework is wider than the gap between Dooku's Force Mastery and Savage's Force Mastery.'?
I really don't think so. Dooku has studied the force for around seven decades compared to Savage's couple of years. He's a master swordsman yes, but I think his mastery of the force is just as, if not more deadly.

Thing is Savage is such a huge physical beast, it would be difficult taking him out without using a direct Saber slash.

Look at all the FL blasts he took from Dooku.

Plus there's Kenobi chopping Savage's arm off, just makes it more likely Savage would go down that way.

Btw does anyone have the passage of Obi-Wan chopping Savage's arm??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The fact that Savage lasted much longer against Dooku is evidence. The best Dooku seemed to do was hold Savage at bay with his FL. So he used his Force powers on him but didn't permanently dispose of him.

He didn't really have that opportunity given the enclosed space. If he took the time he took to dispense of Savage with the force like he did Kenobi in ROTS he would have been bifurcated by Ventress.



That is a no limits fallacy to say that because a production person said that Maul is trained in 'all ways of the Sith' he is immune to anything Dooku throws at him. And a Sith Lord's Force Lightning is>>>any other form as indicated by Darth Plaeguis.



Yes it should. In ROTS Dooku has to kick Skywalker out of the way to focus on Kenobi. If Dooku can split up the Zabrak bros for a second he'll be able to take out Savage with ease.




I think sending him to the pit of the Grand Convocation Chamber and crushing him with a pod will more than suffice.


I am not denying his endurance is not ridiculous.



You should spoiler tag that and I thought
Sidious was the one that did that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He didn't really have that opportunity given the enclosed space. If he took the time he took to dispense of Savage with the force like he did Kenobi in ROTS he would have been bifurcated by Ventress....


Yes it should. In ROTS Dooku has to kick Skywalker out of the way to focus on Kenobi. If Dooku can split up the Zabrak bros for a second he'll be able to take out Savage with ease.



Ah I see your point now. Yes that's possible.

But I do think Maul is probably better trained and therefore more able to handle a TK attack like that than Obi-Wan.

And I also think with Savage's durability it would prove more difficult(though not impossible) doing it to him than it was doing it to Obi-Wan.





Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You should spoiler tag that and I thought
Sidious was the one that did that.

Well I figured no one here's saying "Don't tell me what happens"..

Anyway.. Yes Obi-Wan cuts off Savage's arm. He apparently does this while briefly fending off both Maul and Savage. Then apparently Maul Force pushes Obi-Wan away and they escape. But no one's posted the passage so I don't know how exactly the arm cutting takes place.

Though I'm guessing it's the same fight where Maul's fighting Obi-Wan while Savage is fighting Adi Gallia and Savage kills Adi. So it could well be an enraged Obi-Wan lashing out. That's just my guess.

Originally posted by ares834
Well Dooku held his own against both Anakin (prior z0ne) and Obi-Wan quite well and I'd certainly put that duo above Savage and Maul.

Originally posted by ares834
ABC logic much?

Dooku.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And would 2 Obi-Wans beat Maul and Oppress?

Currently Obi-Wan hasn't beaten both of them yet. When he does we can say that they suck dick, but not before.

Though seriously if he does beat them both they suck dick.

Well he does beat them both in the next episode (after seeing Adi's death)

But does that mean we just completely forget his past record against these 2? Especially against Savage, who in one fight was overpowering Obi-Wan and Anakin and in the next fight beat Obi-Wan down in seconds.


As for the thread The ROTS Anakin/Obi-Wan analogy just doesn't work.

Dooku isn't just going to just Force choke Opress as easily as he did Obi-Wan. And he certainly won't be kicking Opress half way across the room like he did to Anakin.

And considering Maul's combat prowess and force training under Darth Sidious I doubt he'll be easy fodder for Dooku either.

So it's all going to come down to Sabers Imo. In which case I give Dooku a chance but give majority to the team.

Originally posted by Battlemaster


Not really, no. I'm not saying Dooku is necessarily superior to the duo. But, considering Dooku's past track record against duos I'm inclined to give him the win.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

This is not a faulty syllogism. The problem with "ABC logic" is that it uses some shared B that has a relation with both A and C to judge the relation between A and C. However, the A/B relation and B/C relation are not always comparable. Most often on this board, that's because B gains experience or power between comparisons.

More specifically, this case is even more not an example of ABC logic in that Dooku's performance against paired opponents has to be judged somehow. By using an even more rigorous test than Maul/Oppress, Ares makes the distance between Dooku's ability and his opponents' even more clear. It's just good rhetoric.

(Whether that is a valid avenue of investigation is open to interpretation; you might object that Dooku spent more time separating the pair (AotC and, to a lesser extent, on the Invisible Hand) than he did fighting them. Merely discounting the syllogism on grounds of format alone, however, will get you laughed out of court.)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think the better A>B>C analogy here would be the Ventress & Savage vs Dooku.

And then decide how much harder the fight will be for Count Dooku by replacing Ventress with Maul and having a better trained Savage.


You seem to have this covered. I'll go back to not-reading things and sniping from the sidelines.

Or you could go over to the All-Versus Forum and start having fun again.


Maaaaaaaaybe?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120724115626/spiritedaway/images/thumb/c/c8/No-Face.png/300px-No-Face.png
NO
(I still owe you an argument here, I think? I promise it's still on the agenda. You can expect it by February.)

In the initial fight, I'll note they were playing it very defensively and not taking many risks.

Originally posted by Q99
In the initial fight, I'll note they were playing it very defensively and not taking many risks.

Possibly. But they are the ones who went to confront him. And doesn't change the fact that he was seemingly stalemating them both and ended the fight by flattening them to the floor with the force. Of course Savage was in a rage so fighting at his Apex. Fair enough...

Now in the next episode Obi-Wan will fight both Savage and Maul using 2 Lightsabers and defeat them

Of course I haven't seen that fight yet, so can't analyze the circumstances yet, but when I do I may be able to argue that the Maul brothers were not fighting at their peak this time. While Obi-Wan is more determined than ever:

He does witness Savage kill Adi. Although I do also like the idea of Obi-Wan Excelling at using Jar Kai

But my point is we should consider all their fights and not just the one where the Brothers lose saying they suck now.
The same brothers do after all later in the season give Sidious a fight, who incidentally also uses 2 Sabers to fight and defeat them both.

But with obviously with much more ease than Obi-Wan does. But still it's frigging Sidious going Jar Kai on them . Any 2 Jedi/Dark Jedi who can even give a fight there obviously don't suck.

I consider the idea that Sidious was taking them seriously when in a similar situation Dooku was dancing around Savage, practically toying with his opponents to be quite ludicrous myself.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I consider the idea that Sidious was taking them seriously when in a similar situation Dooku was dancing around Savage, practically toying with his opponents to be quite ludicrous myself.

And the idea that Obi-Wan can suddenly defeat Maul and Opress together when he's never in the past been able to defeat either one of them is also ludicrous.

But hey that's SW for you Ludicrously Inconsistent.


But I would note Dooku has never fought Maul, and clearly does see Savage as a threat to him.

Because he was taken off-guard and they kicked the shit out of him. Both times they rumbled Obi-Wan wasn't in good shape.

Dooku fought someone arguably on par with Maul and he said that Savage might become a threat to him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he was taken off-guard and they kicked the shit out of him. Both times they rumbled Obi-Wan wasn't in good shape.

That's just an excuse. Obi-Wan was in perfect shape the first time. He was told by Mace he'd be walking into a trap. He was ready for a fight having ignited his Lightsaber first.

He turned around and acknowledged Savage was there before Savage attacked him. Maul hadn't even engaged him by the time Savage had him on the floor.

Maul also fights him one on one in the next episode before the 2 on 1 fight where he is completely ready for him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku fought someone arguably on par with Maul and he said that Savage might become a threat to him.

Nope he never said "might become". Being a threat doesn't make him Dooku's equal. But it makes him at least a challenge.

Oh and as for Dooku dancing around him, that ended with Dooku on the floor. Then Dooku keeps him at bay with his FL, and that ended with Savage force choking Dooku.

Dooku even says to Ventress "Your no match for me without your monster." Implying the 2 of them may be a match for him.

Still two lightsabers should not have given Obi Wan such an advantage that he can suddenly fight them both off at the same time. Using two sabers would actually give him a disadvantage in strength, which is basically already the reason he went down to Savage so quickly. So I'm guessing Obi Wan chops Savage's arm off rather quickly in the fight, by finally being able to take advantage of his superior skill and speed.

And LOL @ Maul and Savage giving Sidious a fight. Just no.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Still two lightsabers should not have given Obi Wan such an advantage that he can suddenly fight them both off at the same time. Using two sabers would actually give him a disadvantage in strength, which is basically already the reason he went down to Savage so quickly. So I'm guessing Obi Wan chops Savage's arm off rather quickly in the fight, by finally being able to take advantage of his superior skill and speed.


Supposed to be a stunning fight, so I doubt it'll be quick.

With 2 Sabers his attacks may be too quick and too skilled for Savage. Don't know what's wrong with Maul though. Will have to see in a few weeks.

It Is Inconsistent though, not only with Obi-Wan's previous encounters with the duo, but also the way Dooku struggled against Ventress and Savage.
I mean after all he did end up on the floor forced to keep Savage at Bay with FL. Didn't really look like he could have kept it up in a Saber only fight.

Well to be fair, Dooku was seemingly caught by surprise by Savage's strength. I don't think he actually expected that, seeing how their previous spar went.

Oppress does seem to throw most people off... at first.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well to be fair, Dooku was seemingly caught by surprise by Savage's strength. I don't think he actually expected that, seeing how their previous spar went.

Not really sure how he was caught by surprise by his strength considering he was the one who had trained him.

I'd put it more down to having a harder time fending off his incredible strength after dancing around 2 opponents like that. One on One of course Dooku would destroy him.


Also to be fair to Savage, he had zero force training in their first sparring match. And he's a warrior who is better with a Saber Staff really. He's not much of a fencer so of course will have zero chance in a pure fencing match against Dooku who is THE Jedi Fencer.


Edit- Still fact is Dooku does see Savage as a legitimate threat to him. So he sure as hell wouldn't be confident taking on Maul and Savage together.

Originally posted by Q99
Oppress does seem to throw most people off... at first.

This is actually a fair point and could be true. Although when he beat down Obi-Wan in the last episode, it wasn't the first time they fought. But it was the first time Obi-Wan faced him alone.

We'll have to see how well Savage does in other fights he's in this season.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Nope he never said "might become".

You're right. As a matter of fact, I don't think he said he was a threat at all.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
You're right. As a matter of fact, I don't think he said he was a threat at all.

Episode: Brothers

Grievous- "You consider HIM a Threat??"

Dooku- "He's a Threat to All Of Us!"


Also Dooku's words to Ventress "Your No Match for me without your monster.." suggest Ventress alone is a joke to him, whilst Ventress with Opress is something he would take much more seriously.

Let alone Maul with Opress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Episode: Brothers

Grievous- "You consider HIM a Threat??"

Dooku- "He's a Threat to All Of Us!"


Also Dooku's words to Ventress "Your No Match for me without your monster.." suggest Ventress alone is a joke to him, whilst Ventress with Opress is something he would take much more seriously.

Let alone Maul with Opress.


Ok.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Episode: Brothers

Grievous- "You consider HIM a Threat??"

Dooku- "He's a Threat to All Of Us!"


Also Dooku's words to Ventress "Your No Match for me without your monster.." suggest Ventress alone is a joke to him, whilst Ventress with Opress is something he would take much more seriously.

Let alone Maul with Opress.

Do you consider Dooku to be an inferior swordsman to Kenobi though? There are some serious inconstancies in that fight, for example, Dooku had trouble with Savage's physical strength, but holds back Kenobi's blows effortlessly in ROTS who apparently holds both Maul and Savage in a saber lock? Wut?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Do you consider Dooku to be an inferior swordsman to Kenobi though?

After Kenobi's latest feat I wouldn't rule out the possibility.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
There are some serious inconstancies in that fight, for example, Dooku had trouble with Savage's physical strength, but holds back Kenobi's blows effortlessly in ROTS who apparently holds both Maul and Savage in a saber lock? Wut?

Hey man don't blame me. I don't choreograph the fights!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
After Kenobi's latest feat I wouldn't rule out the possibility.

Neither would I. It certainly makes Mace's claim that Kenobi was on his level in terms of raw swordsmanship make sense.




I know but that Episode had so many inconstancies...you know like Adi Gallia.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Do you consider Dooku to be an inferior swordsman to Kenobi though? There are some serious inconstancies in that fight, for example, Dooku had trouble with Savage's physical strength, but holds back Kenobi's blows effortlessly in ROTS who apparently holds both Maul and Savage in a saber lock? Wut?

No, but perhaps Obi-Wan's chosen form enables him to better withstand physical strikes than Dooku?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, but perhaps Obi-Wan's chosen form enables him to better withstand physical strikes than Dooku?

Saber locks are still heavily dependent on the users strength. And that still does not explain why Anakin and Kenobi's strikes, Anakin; a physical monster with two hands, was casually parried by the Count with one hand.

To borrow a phrase from my beloved Nephthys, "because shut up."

It's either we accept my semi-sensible answer or we accept that Star Wars is inconsistent.

Keno8i could have simply 8een more prepared and thus drew heavily on the Force to help him 8lock Savage and Maul, just as Dooku was prepared and 8locked Anakin and O8i-Wan. The novel supports the latter, may8e.

When Dooku tried against Savage, he must have underestimated his strength and miscalculated.

Ventress and Adi Galia have also 8locked Savage's 8lade as well.

Also plausible.

Obi-Wan, having fought and struggled with both Maul and Savage before, would have known how much more to draw from the Force.

But then why didn't they increase their power, benefiting from similar knowledge....

8ecause shut up.



Why doesn't every Sith put all their power into a single Force Push and o8literate their opponent? We can go down this ra88it hole with much more than just this topic.

I think Darth Tyranus takes this. **** the Clone Wars powerscale.

I wonder if Maul has taught Oppress to 8lock Force Lightning yet? IMO, this goes the same way the Savage + Ventress fight did. Dooku can dominate Savage with the Force and 8eat Maul in sa8ers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wonder if Maul has taught Oppress to 8lock Force Lightning yet? IMO, this goes the same way the Savage + Ventress fight did. Dooku can dominate Savage with the Force and 8eat Maul in sa8ers.
That's how I see it going down as well. Also idk if this is pertinent but it seems as though Maul had a rather emotional response to Savage going down. Dooku would dun moch that to death.

I think CW Maul is more powerful than his TPM incarnation but has emotions other than hate, which make him easier to counter in a way.

Dooku wins even without Ventress...

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wonder if Maul has taught Oppress to 8lock Force Lightning yet? IMO, this goes the same way the Savage + Ventress fight did. Dooku can dominate Savage with the Force and 8eat Maul in sa8ers.

Nah I just don't see him taking both these 2 together. He had enough trouble with Opress and Ventress.

And I still see just Maul vs Dooku being a close fight.

Also Opress has a lot of raw power in the force and is a physical beast. So I really don't see Dooku just easily owning him with the Force. He may be able to keep him at bay with FL but continually doing that while fighting off Maul would be too much for the Count Imho.