Cell vs Broly

BloodRain

Originally posted by Damborgson
The Gohan that fought Broly was still notceably superior to Cell. He was stalemating Dabura who was supposedly more powerful than Perfect cell according to Goku and Vegeta. And Broly was having fun using Gohan as a stress reliever.
Goku said that Dabura's probably at Cell's powerlevel, and that if he was stronger he would have been a strong opponent back then. Comparable to Cell, but definitely weaker.

Gohan was panting at the end of their fight, where Dabura was perfectly fine, and is several times stated to be weaker than his teen self.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Probably because they are 2 entirely different things/sources of energy? not to mention its a FKN star.
Yeah, but whats the surface of a star compared to planet busting blasts?

juggerman

If the sun hit a planet it would probably bust it too

BloodRain

Yes but that has nothing to do with a stationary star.

juggerman

Ok then if Earth hit the sun... Same deal.

These DBZ guys seem to have shitty heat durability. Broly and Cooler were killed by the sun. Broly was burned by lava. Goku panicked when Broly's blast set his clothes on fire. Goku dodged lava while fighting Frieza.

BloodRain

Also has nothing to do with the Earth. Ah the whole Sun heat thing is stupid. On one hand being on the Sun kills Cooler, on the other we have Frieza surviving the heat and force (if barely) of an exploding planet.

Its a sad day when fire kills DB characters.

juggerman

So who wins here?

juggerman

Nvm i just went back and looked at your post saying Cell would win Round 2

Zack Fair

Originally posted by BloodRain

Yeah, but whats the surface of a star compared to planet busting blasts?

Really? The sun would easily destroy the planet.

BloodRain

It'd roast the planet into a rock, but not destroy it. The only thing that you get from the surface of the sun in 5000K heat, which would be like the temp of a planet exploding (core temp+) minus the actual force of the explosion.

Zack Fair

Don't remember the instance all too well but since you only keep talking about the surface...Broly died by simply coming in contact with the sun's surface? Because if he did manage to dig into the sun its a whole different ballpark

juggerman

Still DBZ Ki Blasts are not balls of heat. Just because Broly tanks concussive energy attacks doesn't mean he can tank heat.

He had to use a barrier when he was in the lava

NemeBro

Broly was pushed from one end of the sun and out the other side by three Ki blasts, and only died because the wound he received as a child opened up.

Wow what a bad feat.

Zack Fair

So he did get through the core of the sun and lived to get out the other side. Thats an amazing feat of endurance/durability even if it did kill him. Also true juggerman. Which is why I mentioned earlier they are 2 different things.

Reminds me to DL the movies. Got the entire z saga but always forget about dem movies.

BloodRain

He went through the Sun?

Seriously, he was shot /through/ the Sun?

no expression

Damborgson

Originally posted by BloodRain
Goku said that Dabura's probably at Cell's powerlevel, and that if he was stronger he would have been a strong opponent back then. Comparable to Cell, but definitely weaker.

Gohan was panting at the end of their fight, where Dabura was perfectly fine, and is several times stated to be weaker than his teen self.

He said that they were about the same. Then later in the fight when Vegeta was getting pissed Goku said Dabura was stronger than he'd thought. Never was it implied that he was weaker than cell, and I think that Toriyama's purpose was to show just how different the scale in power was between a guy like perfect cell and a guy like fat buu was.

Yeah no doubt he was weaker, but to be able to drop from the point where you can beat the crap out of someone no problem to being tied with them is pretty huge.

Originally posted by BloodRain
He went through the Sun?

Seriously, he was shot /through/ the Sun?

no expression

Yeah Bro. From a family kamehameha lol.

Damborgson

Originally posted by Zack Fair
So he did get through the core of the sun and lived to get out the other side. Thats an amazing feat of endurance/durability even if it did kill him. Also true juggerman. Which is why I mentioned earlier they are 2 different things.

Reminds me to DL the movies. Got the entire z saga but always forget about dem movies.

No only the energy came out the other side. His physical form was incinerated.

btw: http://ssj1011.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/broly.jpg God he's sexy lol.

Ridley_Prime

Originally posted by juggerman
Goku was "struggling" with Vegeta when they first fought.

Vegeta was "struggling" with 1st Form Freiza.

#17 was "struggling" with Piccolo.

1st Form Cell was "struggling" with #16.

Goku was "struggling" with Pikkon.

Stalemates often include struggling. Dabura was not overly above Gohan like Broly seemed to be and Dabura was stated to be Cell's superior.

Looks to me like Perfect Cell < Dabura < Broly
When did Gohan make an actual winning comeback against Dabura though like Goku did in his first fight against Vegeta, etc.? And some of those other examples were only because one of them was holding back at first, like with 17 because he didn't know Piccolo would become as stronger as he did after easily handling him before, and 1st form Cell was being arrogant when he underestimated 16 as he referred to him as one of Gero's lower model Androids. Goku and Pikkon (assuming you mean in the Other World Tournament) wasn't a stalemate since there was an actual victor.

Even if it wasn't as obvious as it was with Broly, Dabura was still pretty above Gohan in their fight, which Vegeta scolded him for afterward. If the fight had been more conclusive (for lack of better word), Gohan would not have lasted much longer. Dabura wasn't panting at the end either like Gohan was, as pointed out. Whether he was stronger or weaker than Perfect Cell, you could easily tell Dabura wasn't trying too much against Gohan like he was with Fat Buu.

Originally posted by juggerman
Ok then if Earth hit the sun... Same deal.

These DBZ guys seem to have shitty heat durability. Broly and Cooler were killed by the sun. Broly was burned by lava. Goku panicked when Broly's blast set his clothes on fire. Goku dodged lava while fighting Frieza.
Cooler survived the sun actually, even though he got help from an outside source. Still fairly impressive though that he had anything left of himself at all to still be alive & able to receive aid when the Big Gete Star came along.

As for Goku, he was knocked into lava then rose back out of it when fighting Frieza at one part in the anime, though it might have been filler. Don't remember at this point. If it is, then disregard my mention of it.

juggerman

Goku didn't really make a comeback. He was completely spent after countering Vegeta's Galick Gun. Vegeta was still strong enough to kill Goku if he just attacked but he didn't realise Goku couldn't really move so he pulled his trump card (transformation) and toyed with Goku

Dabura was clearly holding back as well. The point was that stalemates happen all the time and atleast one of them usually struggles. Still a stalemate tho

Yes i was but these fights don't usually END in a stalemate. They fight and stalemate for awhile and then one of them does something different and gets the upperhand.

Goku and Vegeta stalemated until Vegeta went DK
Vegeta and Frieza stalemated until Frieza went 2nd Form
Frieza and Piccolo stalemated until Frieza went 3rd Form
Piccolo and #17 stalemated until Piccolo's Ki started to decrese
Cell and #16 Stalemated until Cell grabbed #17

It was pretty clear that Broly was well above Gohan. He no sold pretty much every attack and was overpowering Gohan Goten and Goku.

And we don't know how the fight would have gone had it continued. Goku was completely outclassed and being destroyed by Frieza at 50% but when he got mad enough he violated Frieza's hind parts even at 100%. No reason to believe Gohan couldn't do the same to Dabura seeing as how his potential is far above Goku's

He was stated to be at Cell's PL by Goku, then Goku says he's stronger than he thought. He's really saying He's stronger than Cell was.

And Gohan completely outclassed Cell as SSJ2. It was embarrassing. Then he gets weaker and struggles with Dabura. He would have had to have gotten alot weaker to just be even with Cell Since he overpowered Cell at half strength. And we don't know exactly how much his PL decreased. I'm just speculating here but that to me says Dabura>Cell

Yeah i forgot Cooler survived which makes Broly look even worse. But their race seems to be able to survive injuries that would kill anyone else. Frieza was cut in half and had his face blown half off and survived

I know he did but before he went Super he was fighting Frieza and the ground spit and lava came up. He was afraid to let it touch him

BloodRain

Originally posted by Damborgson
He said that they were about the same. Then later in the fight when Vegeta was getting pissed Goku said Dabura was stronger than he'd thought. Never was it implied that he was weaker than cell, and I think that Toriyama's purpose was to show just how different the scale in power was between a guy like perfect cell and a guy like fat buu was.

Yeah no doubt he was weaker, but to be able to drop from the point where you can beat the crap out of someone no problem to being tied with them is pretty huge.

Yeah Bro. From a family kamehameha lol.
Goku said he was stronger from the magic he was using. Plus stating that Dabura would need to be stronger to be a strong opponent back then.

Ridley_Prime

Originally posted by juggerman
Goku didn't really make a comeback. He was completely spent after countering Vegeta's Galick Gun. Vegeta was still strong enough to kill Goku if he just attacked but he didn't realise Goku couldn't really move so he pulled his trump card (transformation) and toyed with Goku
Goku could've still done the Solar Flare + Spirit Bomb combo though, which would've worked better against normal Vegeta than the Oozaru form. The Kaioken x4 + Kamehameha was the winning comeback I was referring to though, in which he overpowered Vegeta's best attack.

Originally posted by juggerman
Dabura was clearly holding back as well. The point was that stalemates happen all the time and atleast one of them usually struggles. Still a stalemate tho
Except those all involved experienced fighters. Gohan 7 years after the Cell Games was struggling basically as though he had never been in a fight before when he faced Dabura, which pissed off Vegeta. Even if he was holding back, Dabura was still pretty much toying with Gohan and predicting his movements.

But since Gohan's a hack he got that power boost from the Elder Kai later on which made him surpass SSJ3 Goku and Gotenks.

Originally posted by juggerman
Yes i was but these fights don't usually END in a stalemate. They fight and stalemate for awhile and then one of them does something different and gets the upperhand.
I guess that's where we agree then.

Originally posted by juggerman
And we don't know how the fight would have gone had it continued. Goku was completely outclassed and being destroyed by Frieza at 50% but when he got mad enough he violated Frieza's hind parts even at 100%. No reason to believe Gohan couldn't do the same to Dabura seeing as how his potential is far above Goku's
The fight with Frieza was Goku's first time being a Super Saiyan, so of course he would make the comeback of the century there, but Gohan had already transformed into that and still wasn't doing much better against Dabura than he was before. As for potential, that only gets unlocked when the Elder Kai comes along, but I'm talking about the Gohan just 7 years after the Cell Games that had no training.

Originally posted by juggerman
He was stated to be at Cell's PL by Goku, then Goku says he's stronger than he thought. He's really saying He's stronger than Cell was.
Goku also said Hatchiyak was possibly stronger than Broly, but who takes his word for that? Also for Dabura, he might be stronger than Perfect Cell, but the Super Perfect Cell form (when he returns learning Goku's Instant Transmission and having the SSJ2 aura from the zenkai boost) is debatable. I think Super Cell's Solar Kamehameha could possibly solo Dabura, but it could go either way really as far as we know.

Originally posted by juggerman
He would have had to have gotten alot weaker to just be even with Cell Since he overpowered Cell at half strength.
Even with Cell? After he returned Cell was completely overpowering half strength Gohan and was only defeated due to a distraction attack by Vegeta that gave Gohan the chance to get a clear shot in.

Originally posted by juggerman
Yeah i forgot Cooler survived which makes Broly look even worse. But their race seems to be able to survive injuries that would kill anyone else. Frieza was cut in half and had his face blown half off and survived
Yeah, I guess that makes up for them not having regenerative abilities like Namekians.

Originally posted by juggerman
I know he did but before he went Super he was fighting Frieza and the ground spit and lava came up. He was afraid to let it touch him
Oh, that part. Well at most all the lava did was make us see a comical "my butt's on fire" moment by Goku, then he continued fighting Frieza as well as he did before until Frieza went 50%.

Based

Cell. Goku and Gohan weren't MSSJ's at the movie. Cell stomps hard.

Damborgson

Originally posted by BloodRain
Goku said he was stronger from the magic he was using. Plus stating that Dabura would need to be stronger to be a strong opponent back then.

Thats not what he said at all. That magic made him tougher than he thought or something similar. Then he said that though Dabura wasn't an enormous threat now, back in the cell games he would have been trouble.

BloodRain

"Well, even if that wasnt his full strength he would have been a strong opponent a while ago, but..." "Seven years ago, we fough Cell. Dabura's probably at about that same power level."
Goku guesses that a full powered Dabura would be at Cells level.

"Was that magic?" "He's a lot stronger than I thought."
The magic surprised him right before the statement.

"He's not even close to the level he was at when he fought Celll."
If as a SS2 Gohan doesn't compare to Teen Gohan, than Dabura being in his league (Gohan was below him for being out of breath but technically "not losing" yet) says that he's not as strong as Cell. Comparable with Goku's hypothetical Dabura at full power, but still weaker.

Damborgson

Originally posted by BloodRain
"Well, even if that wasnt his full strength he would have been a strong opponent a while ago, but..." "Seven years ago, we fough Cell. Dabura's probably at about that same power level."
Goku guesses that a full powered Dabura would be at Cells level.

"Was that magic?" "He's a lot stronger than I thought."
The magic surprised him right before the statement.

"He's not even close to the level he was at when he fought Celll."
If as a SS2 Gohan doesn't compare to Teen Gohan, than Dabura being in his league (Gohan was below him for being out of breath but technically "not losing" yet) says that he's not as strong as Cell. Comparable with Goku's hypothetical Dabura at full power, but still weaker.

yes and here's what you said :

Originally posted by BloodRain
Goku said he was stronger from the magic he was using. Plus stating that Dabura would need to be stronger to be a strong opponent back then.

completely different.

And my arguments all stand. He at Cell level or higher from Goku's cooments.

oh and those links are broken for me >_<

BloodRain

They're the same.

I said Goku announced that he was stronger when he started using his magic, which he did.

I said Goku thought that if he wasnt at full power (an assumption) he would have been a strong opponent back then, which he did.

What comment supports your argument? The one where Goku says he would be at Cell's level assuming he wasn't at full power yet (Also not possible as we only know of certain fighters being able to suppress their power. Dabura did not show this)? Or when both Goku and Vegeta confirm that Gohan is much weaker now only to have Dabura only get an edge in the fight, not a victory?

The comments say that Dabura is on Cell's level from Goku's assumption or is weaker from how he handled Gohan. No comment says he's stronger.

Damborgson

Originally posted by BloodRain
They're the same.

I said Goku announced that he was stronger when he started using his magic, which he did.

I said Goku thought that if he wasnt at full power (an assumption) he would have been a strong opponent back then, which he did.

What comment supports your argument? The one where Goku says he would be at Cell's level assuming he wasn't at full power yet (Also not possible as we only know of certain fighters being able to suppress their power. Dabura did not show this)? Or when both Goku and Vegeta confirm that Gohan is much weaker now only to have Dabura only get an edge in the fight, not a victory?

The comments say that Dabura is on Cell's level from Goku's assumption or is weaker from how he handled Gohan. No comment says he's stronger.

Goku said Dabura was tougher than perfect cell....but they're the same? K.

You said what I posted you said. It's your quote not mine.

what are you arguing at this point? What I'm arguing is that Dabura is = or slightly > Perfect cell. I'm arguing this because of the comment from Goku and Vegeta.

It starts off "There was a guy called cell a few years back. They're about the same."

later :

"He's tougher than we thought"

"yeah but this much trouble with him?!"

it's flimsy but its the only thing to imply it basically. Which is what DBZ tends to do.

BloodRain

Goku didnt say he was stronger. Comparable if Dabura could attain more power? Yes. Stronger? No.

And before that quote he's basically going on an assumption if Dabura hasnt got to his full power yet. But he has at that point, since he cant charge up.

Tougher because of the use of magic. And tougher when compared to a weak Gohan.

Damborgson

Originally posted by BloodRain
Goku didnt say he was stronger. Comparable if Dabura could attain more power? Yes. Stronger? No.

And before that quote he's basically going on an assumption if Dabura hasnt got to his full power yet. But he has at that point, since he cant charge up.

Tougher because of the use of magic. And tougher when compared to a weak Gohan.

I know. He said what I posted. He said that Dabura would have been trouble had they been at the levels of the cell games not that he was weaker.

Says who?

So? That weak Gohan was stalemating a being at the level of or stronger than cell.

BloodRain

Gohan was so much weaker than his teen self, to an extent where Vegeta brings it up several times with Goku flat-out agreeing with him, but despite this he can stalemate someone who was stronger than the person his teen self just managed to beat? Even though he's much, much weaker now?

Damborgson

Originally posted by BloodRain
Gohan was so much weaker than his teen self, to an extent where Vegeta brings it up several times with Goku flat-out agreeing with him, but despite this he can stalemate someone who was stronger than the person his teen self just managed to beat? Even though he's much, much weaker now?

I'm talking about perfect cell. Not super perfect cell. I doubt they were referring to Dabura as having the power that Cell had after he regenerated. But if that were the case it still wouldn't be a bad feat since he beat him with one arm.

NemeBro

Goku said that he thinks Dabura is on Cell's level.

Then he says Dabura is stronger than he thought.

Goku thought that Dabura was on Cell's level, but turns out, he is stronger than he thought, and he thought he was on Cell's level.

Therefore Dabura is stronger than Cell.

BloodRain, stop being an idiot.

AuraAngel

Gohan apparently being much weaker than when he fought Cell not factor into your analysis there?

Dabura<Cell for the simple fact that Dabura was unable to kill a far weaker Gohan than one Cell could compete with.

Then again, it's hard to tell if Goku is implying Dabura is as strong as Perfect Cell or the stronger, revived Perfect Cell.

juggerman

Well Cell never really "competed" with SSJ2 Gohan. Gohan was well above Cell. He was so far above Cell that he was able to hold him off and eventually kill him at half strength AFTER Cell got stronger.

Gohan weakening over 7 years might just have put him on par with Cell since he was so much stronger than him as a teen. We really don't know how much Gohan weakened but since he was still able to access SSJ2 so easily he was probably still above Cell

Ridley_Prime

Originally posted by juggerman
Well Cell never really "competed" with SSJ2 Gohan. Gohan was well above Cell. He was so far above Cell that he was able to hold him off and eventually kill him at half strength AFTER Cell got stronger.
Though he wouldn't of been able to do it without the other Z fighters' assistance. Piccolo and the others bought Gohan much of the time needed for him to hold Cell off, while Vegeta's attack was enough of a distraction for Gohan to finish him off.

It's kinda hard to measure just how much he was above Cell after Cell returned from self-destructing, but being able to disable one of Gohan's arms and thus cutting his strength in half at least says something as far as Cell's power increase, since before he couldn't damage Gohan with even the distructo discs or anything.

Originally posted by juggerman
Gohan weakening over 7 years might just have put him on par with Cell since he was so much stronger than him as a teen. We really don't know how much Gohan weakened but since he was still able to access SSJ2 so easily he was probably still above Cell
Seeing as how Vegeta still remarked on how much weaker Gohan had gotten and how "soft" he became when going SSJ2 in front of Kibito, it's not a guarantee that he was still above Cell just because he could still access SSJ2. Either way, Dabura pretty much made him look like a complete amateur who hadn't really fought before when he faced him.

AuraAngel

How did this even turn into who is stronger between Dabura and Cell? Isn't there a thread for that? :T

juggerman

True but Gohan's attack had to be so far above Cell's PL to not only damage him but to take him out completely. Vegeta's Final Flash was able to cut Cell in half iirc yet not enough to kill him. Goku also took out half of Cell with a powerful attack yet it didn't kill him. Cell's own explosion (Which killed Goku) wasn't even enough to take him out.

Cell was distracted but his PL was still crazy high and at half strength Gohan completely obliterated him. Completely destroyed every single cell in his body. At half power.

That makes it pretty clear that Super Duper Cell was still weaker than half of SSJ2 Gohan

He was badly injured because he didn't block the attack he just took it full force to protect Vegeta. The good guys have shown that they can be harmed by vastly inferior attacks if they aren't prepared while the baddies usually mantain their durability at all times. Like when Broly tanked Vegeta's attack while just walking to Goku yet Krillin hurt Goku with a rock while he was resting.

I know that there is no guarantee about where his PL actually was compared to his teen self but there was no indecation that he fell to less than half of what he had. And him at half was still superior to Super Duper Cell. Just my opinion.

AuraAngel

Alternatively, the reason Gohan at half power could kill Cell was because on top of being distracted, the Z-fighters attacks were gradually weakening him as well.

juggerman

Didn't really look like they were have too much effect on Cell except annoying him imo.

EDIT: And even tho he was distracted Gohan had to have enough power to completely obliterate Cell so he coudn't regen. He had that much power at 1/2

AuraAngel

Kay, finally just read the manga version.

Piccolo confirms that Gohan's ki is weaker than Cells at the time, though later Goku says Gohan was holding back. Vegeta does his attack, Gohan goes all out, and Cell gets killed.

So either Cell was weakened enough from Vegeta's attack so Gohan could beat him with half his power or Gohan really did have more than half because he was holding back. My guess is a little bit of both.

juggerman

Don't forget to vote!

juggerman

Vegeta's attack barely registered to Cell. Id have to say Gohan's attack was just that powerful

BloodRain

Originally posted by Damborgson
I'm talking about perfect cell. Not super perfect cell. I doubt they were referring to Dabura as having the power that Cell had after he regenerated. But if that were the case it still wouldn't be a bad feat since he beat him with one arm.

Likely as thats the version Goku fought, but its SP Cell in this fight with Broly.

SP Cell was approaching SS2Gohan's level so he's stronger than Dabura who is above adult Gohan.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Goku said that he thinks Dabura is on Cell's level.

Then he says Dabura is stronger than he thought.

Goku thought that Dabura was on Cell's level, but turns out, he is stronger than he thought, and he thought he was on Cell's level.

Therefore Dabura is stronger than Cell.

BloodRain, stop being an idiot.

So we're not mentioning that Gohan is 'not even close to the level' of his teen self?

Goku /thinks/ that Dabura can be compared to Cell.

Vegeta and Goku /confirm/ that Gohan can't even be compared to his teen self.

Dabura can't be stronger than Cell yet still be on a weakened Gohan's level.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
How did this even turn into who is stronger between Dabura and Cell? Isn't there a thread for that? :T

Because Broly was beating adult Gohan. Even though Gohan was able to get the slightest upperhand a few times.

If Broly can even be compared to an adult Gohan (who is weaker than someone around the strength of either Cell of Super Cell) then Broly = or < this Cell depending of which version Goku meant.

And if two people are physically on par, the guy who brings more to the table comes out on top. Cell's a lot smarter, has Instant Transmission and that from-a-cell regeneration.

NemeBro

Dabura, as confirmed by Vegeta, was toying with Gohan.

And you're a simpering moron if you believe that Gohan and Broly were on par with one another. Broly dominated Gohan and pals all at the same time.

juggerman

We really don't know Dabura's level since he never really cut loose. Goku and company aren't the best judges of PL's when someone can increase/decrease their output.

Goku had no idea Frieza could power up so highly above him when they were first fighting. And Vegeta thought he was a match for Perfect Cell

But Gohan 'not even close to the level' he started at still obliterated Super Perfect Cell

Which means Dabura was AT LEAST capable of putting out as much power as Cell.

They also confirmed that Gohan's power was greatly decreased when he killed Cell

He wasn't on Gohan's level. He was clearly above him since Gohan was exhausting himself and Dabura wasn't even really trying yet. Kinda like Vegeta vs Recoome.

Those "upperhands" could be the result of Broly toying with Gohan

Broly was clearly well above Gohan. He no solded eveything Gohan tried forcing Gohan to resort to trickery and getting assistance from his family. Had he not toyed with Gohan so much he clearly could have killed him

Cell does have more in his bag of trick than Broly does which could give him a serious advantage.

BloodRain

Originally posted by NemeBro
Dabura, as confirmed by Vegeta, was toying with Gohan.

And you're a simpering moron if you believe that Gohan and Broly were on par with one another. Broly dominated Gohan and pals all at the same time.
With Goku saying that Gohan still wasn't losing.

Broly was winning, but not to DB stomp levels. Gohan got one or two hits in, being able to knock him back with each. But most importantly Gohan was able to overpower Broly's hold on him. A hold from behind with a knee pressing into his back, and from that position a damaged Gohan was still able to beat Broly's strength, break out and kick him away.

Broly is stronger than Gohan, but not so high that Gohan cant do anything.

Originally posted by juggerman
We really don't know Dabura's level since he never really cut loose. Goku and company aren't the best judges of PL's when someone can increase/decrease their output.

Goku had no idea Frieza could power up so highly above him when they were first fighting. And Vegeta thought he was a match for Perfect Cell

That would mean that what they said about Dabura and Cell also means nothing. If we can't take their words then all we can go by is Gohan acknowledging that he's weaker as the only fact here.

Though Dabura can't increase his power, iirc thats a trained thing that not all characters have learnt. But either way he didnt power up in the series, so that doesnt matter.

Originally posted by juggerman
But Gohan 'not even close to the level' he started at still obliterated Super Perfect Cell
Which means Dabura was AT LEAST capable of putting out as much power as Cell.
They also confirmed that Gohan's power was greatly decreased when he killed Cell
He wasn't on Gohan's level. He was clearly above him since Gohan was exhausting himself and Dabura wasn't even really trying yet. Kinda like Vegeta vs Recoome.
Those "upperhands" could be the result of Broly toying with Gohan
Broly was clearly well above Gohan. He no solded eveything Gohan tried forcing Gohan to resort to trickery and getting assistance from his family. Had he not toyed with Gohan so much he clearly could have killed him
Cell does have more in his bag of trick than Broly does which could give him a serious advantage.

This was to Neme and Aura so you didnt really need to respond.

No toying, says he just wants to kill him. And its was a physical on physical overcoming.

Damborgson

Originally posted by BloodRain
Likely as thats the version Goku fought, but its SP Cell in this fight with Broly.

SP Cell was approaching SS2Gohan's level so he's stronger than Dabura who is above adult Gohan.

so? Broly would have beaten SP cell also.

juggerman

Not really. Goku and company can sense Ki levels being used they just can't determine how much power is still hidden. They would have a much better idea of Cell's limits since Cell has shown his full power. All they could really say about Dabura was the power he was currently at/using was on par with what Cell could do. Now the fact that Dabura was hardly trying means he was probably much stronger than he showed

There's no reason to think he couldn't since he was barely trying with Gohan meaning he had more power he wasn't using. And just about everyone they come across can manipulate their Ki to some degree and seeing as how Dabura had the same powers as everyone else does (flight, speed, ki blasts ect.) it would be foolish to just assume he can't just because he didn't show it in the 3 minutes he was seen

I know who it was to.

Yes toying. That's what he does. Broly could have ended the fight multiple times but likes causing injury and pain.

He allowed all of the Z Fighters to be healed by Piccolo when he could have killed them. He allowed them free hits just to show how powerful he was. He basically KO'd everyone except Goku at the end and didn't finish them. He played around with Goten and Trunks instead of killing them right away (which he clearly could have seeing as how he didn't even tap into his true power). He sent a blast at Gohan that wasn't even powerful enough to kill Krillin. He was bearhugging a barely conscious Gohan instead of just blasting him away. He didn't just overwhelm Gohan in their Ki blast struggle (even tho when Gohan had a massive amount of help they were still losing meaning that had Broly truly desired to overpower Gohan alone he easily could have). And when Gohan had his bro and dad helping Broly was still just laughing away and wasn't really giving much effort.

That proves that not only is it completely in Broly's character to toy with his opponent instead of just killing them but that he had multiple chances to end it and chose not to because he is a sadistic A-Hole.

Also it shows he was well above Gohan

EDIT: I forgot to address Ghan breaking out of Broly's grasp. Sorry. That was a good strength showing for Gohan but as i said earlier Broly was merely toying with Gohan at the time. He was probably not using his full strength when Gohan pulled forward. Even still Broly no sold most of Gohan"s hits. The first one when Gohan hit Broly directly in the nose and Broly just smiled without so much as flinching is a good example

Ridley_Prime

Originally posted by juggerman
We really don't know Dabura's level since he never really cut loose.
He did against Fat Buu, and none of his attacks seemed to really be on the destructive level of Cell's Kamehameha.

Originally posted by juggerman
Which means Dabura was AT LEAST capable of putting out as much power as Cell.
But we've never seen him do so, and Goku's not always right as we've seen.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Though Dabura can't increase his power, iirc thats a trained thing that not all characters have learnt. But either way he didnt power up in the series, so that doesnt matter.
Um, Dabura did power up actually when he was meditating in that one room before he faced Gohan.

But yeah, Broly was toying. Even did so with ****ing Videl at one part.

Based

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Kay, finally just read the manga version.

Piccolo confirms that Gohan's ki is weaker than Cells at the time, though later Goku says Gohan was holding back. Vegeta does his attack, Gohan goes all out, and Cell gets killed.

So either Cell was weakened enough from Vegeta's attack so Gohan could beat him with half his power or Gohan really did have more than half because he was holding back. My guess is a little bit of both.

This is all irrelevant. Movies are non canon in DBZ. Every other movie cannot fit in the timeline. This is the only exception but that doesn't mean it's canon.

The movie 8 characters are NOT Cell Games level. It's blatantly obvious. Gohan is stronger than Goku but gets one shotted. Goku is deathly afraid of Gohan facing Broly whereas he threw Gohan into the fire against Cell.

Gohan and Goku are not MSSJ's and significantly weaker than when they faced off against Cell.

Cell rapes Broly.

Originally posted by Damborgson
so? Broly would have beaten SP cell also.

LOL Broly cannot come close to SSJ2 powers. He can't even one shot SSJ type characters like what SSJ2 Gohan did.

NemeBro

He one-shot SSJ Vegeta with the casualness of taking a dump.

Based

Sorry it should be above SSJ type characters like against Cell Jrs. Gohan killed them in literally 5 seconds with one hand, bleeding everywhere from his body.

Broly couldn't even kill Piccolo. Granted Piccolo got raped but Broly is nowhere near SSJ2.

carver9

Originally posted by juggerman
Ok then if Earth hit the sun... Same deal.

These DBZ guys seem to have shitty heat durability. Broly and Cooler were killed by the sun. Broly was burned by lava. Goku panicked when Broly's blast set his clothes on fire. Goku dodged lava while fighting Frieza.

Let's not forget, Goku was right at the sun when he was heading to Namek and withstood the heat just fine. Broly died from the explosion AND the sun when he was rocketed in space. Lava didn't burn Broly. Frieza poured Lava on Goku and Goku was ok afterwards. The part you are talking about was for comic relief.

BloodRain

^I think the lava and sun parts are non-canon.

The power up was non-canon.

Wonder what is and isnt non-canon when the topic is a non-canon character...

Of everyone in Frieza's army, which includes the world population of Saiyans, no one could manipulate their levels of Ki like the Z fighters. The closet they had were changing into different forms. IIRC Frieza was shocked when those Nameks did just that. The only non Z fighter we see charging up their power is Cell, who is the exception because of his DNA. So from all of the known species/whatevers (Saiyans, Frieza's race, all the other species we've seen) only Humans and Namekians have shown this ability.

They knew Cell's, and now know Dabura's. Oh, and him hardly trying against Gohan it would go and show just how weak Gohan is as an adult.

Eh, can't recall much of the first film besides "Hulk smash!".. or something to that extent.

Face punch was the only example, other times its knocks him back for a sec. But the back breaker scene is still in Gohan's favour. Gohan was in a physically awkward position, already ragged on and could break out even with Broly trying to keep him in that hold. Was surprised too iirc.

From all theses there probably isn't anything 100% that puts SP Cell or Broly on a different league by ki or physically to each other. Even in favour of Broly all we have is him beating, not stomping and once overpowered, a weaker-than-Cell-saga Gohan which cant really prove that he's notably > Cell. So I'm all for physically equal, besides Cell's extras.

juggerman

Zarbon could. Ginyu could. Frieza could. And a bunch of others could as well. They usually just operated at their full potential at all times which wasn't very high for most of them. Hell a bunch couldn't even Ki blast on their own. They needed tho lil ugly guns.

You can rally compare those guys to a being on Dabura's level

Or how powerful Dabura was. Yes Gohan was weaker than his teen self but Cell was ridiculously weaker than Gohan's teen self. And if we are to believe Goku Dabura holding back was on Cell's level.

A knock back doesn't show them being on the same level. Hell the Z Fighters beat the shit outta Nappa a few times AND hurt him. Tho them all together were still no match for him. Vegeta pounded on Recoome for awhile that it looked like Recoome was going to die. Gohan put a hurting on Frieza a few times ect

None of these fights were close to being even and they did much better against a stronger opponent than Gohan did against Broly.

I know it's not 100% that's why i made this. It's a debate. If it were a clear "Broly is superior to Cell" than it would be spite and not fun

cdtm

Originally posted by NemeBro
He one-shot SSJ Vegeta with the casualness of taking a dump.

That he did.

Perfect Cell was being damaged by attacks Brolly would just tank, like Goku's best Kamehameha.

Brolly wins, and easily.

Damborgson

Originally posted by Based

LOL Broly cannot come close to SSJ2 powers. He can't even one shot SSJ type characters like what SSJ2 Gohan did.

LOL sure he can. Thats because he was playing with them. He was having fun.

The Gohan he fought was so far above any regular ssj it's pretty obvious he could have killed them whenever he felt like it. Especially since when he let loose the energy building up in him he took out Goku, Trunk, and Gohan.

Damborgson

Originally posted by carver9
Let's not forget, Goku was right at the sun when he was heading to Namek and withstood the heat just fine. Broly died from the explosion AND the sun when he was rocketed in space. Lava didn't burn Broly. Frieza poured Lava on Goku and Goku was ok afterwards. The part you are talking about was for comic relief.

The lava did burn him. He had no marks on him besides the ones inflicted by Goku before entering the lava. After he was out, he was burned and damage.

Filler stuff for Goku. That didn't happen in the manga.

Ridley_Prime

Herpderp. Waited to respond to this again for awhile because I thought it would still get more posts. Guess I was wrong.

Originally posted by cdtm
That he did.

Perfect Cell was being damaged by attacks Brolly would just tank, like Goku's best Kamehameha.

Brolly wins, and easily.
Cell wasn't fighting at full power when he took that Kamehameha of Goku's though. Vegeta was a warmup, and he powered up to a certain extent when facing Goku, but when backed into a corner by Gohan, he revealed that he was never fighting at full strength before that point and then powered up to his 100%, which was before he even returned stronger and learned instant transmission.

And this might be just me, but the Kamehameha Goku used against Broly didn't look nearly as big or powerful as the one he used against Cell, as far as the anime. That, and the fact Goku had to be more strategic to be even be able to hit Cell with that.

BloodRain

Form change =/= Powering up their ki, and Ginyu couldn't. Its why they were all shocked at the Earthlings and Namekians being able to do so, majority of them not even knowing you could do such a thing.

Unless we know he can power up, theres no reason to think that he could.

On the level, not same level. As in it wasnt like Gohan vs Cell Jrs level of stomp, as Gohan here was able to get some, even if little, damage off. Difference is that those underdogs never physically bested the person they were attacking. This fight wasnt close, but the level difference (at least by strength) is much closer than the above.

Just saying that theres nothing to prove one over the other here due to lacking some info. But even as equals, Cell should still be above for the brains, skill and regen.

Ridley_Prime

Originally posted by BloodRain
Form change =/= Powering up their ki, and Ginyu couldn't. Its why they were all shocked at the Earthlings and Namekians being able to do so, majority of them not even knowing you could do such a thing.
Ginyu revealed to Goku himself though that he had the ability to hide and raise his power level at will as well.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Just saying that theres nothing to prove one over the other here due to lacking some info. But even as equals, Cell should still be above for the brains, skill and regen.
And being overall more versatile.

BloodRain

My mistake, Ginyu could. But he's still the only known character besides any Earth/Namek fighter that has shown that type of control.

juggerman

Not true. Frieza was in his final form yet could actively choose how much power he put out. Thats the same kind of control the others show except Frieza didnt go beyond his PL while Goku and company can. And before fighting the Z Fighters Nappa did in fact power up. That shows that he was capabile oof hiding some of his power to some extent tho its not really known how much or why everybody was so surprised when the Earthlings did it.

juggerman

Since he was clearly holding back we can assume he could power up to some degree

So are you saying that Gohan hitting Broly and making him move a few inches is more impressive than Piccolo punching Nappa and sending him flying? Or Goku sending Frieza thru mountains with a kick? Or Vegeta Punching Recoome so hard Recoome doubled over in pain?

Broly never once showed that Gohan was hurting him at all. Gohan did pull Broly's arms forward but Broly was toying with him at the time. That's not much different than Goku stopping Frieza from stranggling him with his tail while Frieza was at a very low power and toying with Goku.

It's pretty clear that Broly was superior to Gohan at every turn so it's reasonable to assume had Broly been serious Gohan would have be killed very easily very early

BloodRain

Originally posted by juggerman
Not true. Frieza was in his final form yet could actively choose how much power he put out. Thats the same kind of control the others show except Frieza didnt go beyond his PL while Goku and company can. And before fighting the Z Fighters Nappa did in fact power up. That shows that he was capabile oof hiding some of his power to some extent tho its not really known how much or why everybody was so surprised when the Earthlings did it.
Frieza was going to his full power after suppressing it, while the fighters charge themselves from a lowered state, to a normal one than to one well above their norm. Iirc Nappa was only charging for certain attacks, not actually powering up his ki. Vegeta is highly shocked when he sees them power up, so if others can do so its nowhere in the same league as the control theZ fighters have. Otherwise Vegeta, Frieza and the FatPink/Effeminate henchmen wouldnt have been surprised by this at all.

Would have to prove if he was holding back his ki and not just going easy on Gohan.

Mmno, just that through the stompfight we have Gohan showing that he is able to, while weakened and in a poor position to resist, break out of Broly's hold on him. For that moment Gohan physically bested him, where other stompfights only had the underdog get in a lucky hit/blast. And I cant see how whether or not he was toying has anything to do with him not being able to pull harder. Having your hold broke and getting kicked in the face doesnt seem like a thing that would happen to a guy toyingly in control.

Im on the fence with that especially with the ending, regardless of the 'distraction'. Id admit to him toying, but not to him not using his full power.

Damborgson

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/2/23751/542870-broly_i.jpg

^ He wins.

Ridley_Prime

Why again is Broly made out to be some unstoppable wave of death and destruction no matter who he's pitted up against?

NemeBro

gp1WYxFcDCc

His hold was only broken after the kick to the face, helping push him away, and beyond that, Broly's hands weren't even wrapped fully around Gohan's wrists. Notice before that that Gohan's punch doesn't so much as make Broly pause, and Broly overpowers him with one arm. Oh, and the kick did nothing to Broly, as we see.

Seriously BloodRain, stop basing your argument on this one instance that you don't even have the context right on.

Oh, and also notice that after that brief exchange, Gohan is so beaten and tired he lays down and passes out, powering down. .

juggerman

Frieza charges himself from a lower state as well. And it is shown that thet can go beyond their normal state by Cooler transforming. My point is that he has control enough to use as power as he sees fit just like the Z fighters and can power up and down.

And the Saiyans transform but can't hold their transformed state forever or it will deplete their power. Frieza stated that he couldn't control his power so he powers down. Basically the same thing

No Nappa charges up right in the beginning and the ground trembles. The Z Fighters are scared shitless at the power Nappa is using just to power up

I agree it's not in the same league but they have been shown to do it so the total shock is very inconsistant with what people do regularly

If he was toying that means he wasn't using his full strength. Gohan was able to pull away from a not trying very hard Broly. Before Broly started pulling harder Gohan kicked him breaking the hold. Not seeing how Gohan matches Broly's strength at all here

Just look at what Broly was doing against Gohan.

He no sold a full power punch right to the face and smiled
He completely overwhelmed Gohan while toying with him to the point that Gohan passed out while Broly came back still giggling
He bearhugged Gohan and Gohan was able to do nothing about it except scream out in pain until Videl distracted Broly
He completely overpowered Gohan's Kamehameha while laughing
He completely overpowered Gohan's and Goten's combined Kamehameha while laughing
He completely overpowered Gohan's, Goten's and Goku's combined Kamehameha while laughing

Ridley_Prime

Broly's feat of overwhelming a weakling Gohan that hadn't trained for nearly a decade gets wanked too much IMO. Everyone else Broly fought in his 2nd movie (Goten and such) were far below that Gohan's level, too.

juggerman

Yet Broly overpowered Gohan Goten AND Goku (who had been training and very vigorously at that). That's really the impressive part to me.

Plus Gohan was much much stronger than he was the 1st time he went up against Broly. Much stronger than any of them were in fact

Ridley_Prime

Haven't seen that movie in forever, but when exactly did Broly overpower all three of them? I thought their attack was what sent him to the sun. And it's not like we saw that Goku at the end go all out against Broly, as in SSJ3. 313

We're talking about the same Gohan that also did poorly against Dabura, are we not? And he wasn't even a SSJ2 during Broly's 1st movie, so that doesn't say much.

On a side note, where the hell were Vegeta and Piccolo during Broly's 2nd movie?

juggerman

Gohan fired a Kamehameha at Broly and he fired one of his weird green balls that expand on contact in return. Gohan was being overwhelmed and Goten joined the fray adding his Kamehameha to Gohan's. They were still being beaten when Goten wished for Goku to appear and he also added his Kamehameha. The entire time Broly was laughing and anytime they gained momentum he just increased his output pushing them back again.

It wasn't until Trunks fired a blast that "lingered" for some reason in between Broly and his green ball causing Broly to no longer be able to fire any more energy into his attack to increase it did they finally push hard enough to overwhelm Broly. It's pretty clear that had Trunks not "blocked" Broly he would have killed them all

Yes

He also got completely stomped by Broly very easily. Atleast twice. None of the SSJ could harm Broly in the slightest and it took some major PIS for Goku to "reopen" a wound that healed about 30 years ago

It was stupid for them to leave out Piccolo like that seeing as how he could feel Broly's power from New Vegeta while he was on Earth. Maybe he and Vegeta remembered that ass whoopin Broly layed on them last time and wanted no part of it again stick out tongue

BloodRain

Originally posted by juggerman
Frieza charges himself from a lower state as well. And it is shown that thet can go beyond their normal state by Cooler transforming. My point is that he has control enough to use as power as he sees fit just like the Z fighters and can power up and down.

And the Saiyans transform but can't hold their transformed state forever or it will deplete their power. Frieza stated that he couldn't control his power so he powers down. Basically the same thing
Coolers is more transformation, and Im still only seeing Frieza going from suppressed power to his true 100% self.

And that would still only be two characters (Notably only one seeing as Ginyu barely increased) that can do so from all of the characters and species in DB, besides the ones we know who have trained to do so. Its stated to be a rare thing, so if Dabura hasn't shown it there's no reason to assume he can.

Originally posted by juggerman
No Nappa charges up right in the beginning and the ground trembles. The Z Fighters are scared shitless at the power Nappa is using just to power up
Thats a single moment charge. Does does it for a single punch, attack on Goku and that blast of his. Its the same as Vegeta charging his Ggun, but not the same as a constant ki charge.

Originally posted by juggerman
I agree it's not in the same league but they have been shown to do it so the total shock is very inconsistant with what people do regularly
Unless the only powering up is shown (maybe) by the very top tiers and anything they do is only charging for a single moment, like Nappa does, or is really minute (Could be the amount they increase is the shocking part.).

Originally posted by juggerman
If he was toying that means he wasn't using his full strength. Gohan was able to pull away from a not trying very hard Broly. Before Broly started pulling harder Gohan kicked him breaking the hold. Not seeing how Gohan matches Broly's strength at all here
Toying just means toying. Frieza was using his full strength at the time to toy with whoever he was fighting, as did Raditz, Racoom, SS2Gohan and iirc Buu. Wait, how do you know Broly was only trying to pull after it was too late?

Originally posted by juggerman
Just look at what Broly was doing against Gohan.

He no sold a full power punch right to the face and smiled
He completely overwhelmed Gohan while toying with him to the point that Gohan passed out while Broly came back still giggling
He bearhugged Gohan and Gohan was able to do nothing about it except scream out in pain until Videl distracted Broly
He completely overpowered Gohan's Kamehameha while laughing
He completely overpowered Gohan's and Goten's combined Kamehameha while laughing
He completely overpowered Gohan's, Goten's and Goku's combined Kamehameha while laughing

Like I said, Broly /can/ stomp Gohan easily. But we can't deny that the moment he was overpowered and the fact that he was beaten by Goku and a weakened Gohan (not including Goten and a passing out Trunks as their strength isnt worth mentioning, at all) says that he's not some massive untouchable league above them.

Anyhow. If Dabura is as strong as Cell, then Broly is on Cell's level if slightly above. If Dabura's weaker or stronger than Cell, than so too is Broly.

Nothing yet shows that Dabura can become stronger than Cell, until then Cell and Broly are in the same ballpark.

Ridley_Prime

Originally posted by juggerman
Gohan fired a Kamehameha at Broly and he fired one of his weird green balls that expand on contact in return. Gohan was being overwhelmed and Goten joined the fray adding his Kamehameha to Gohan's. They were still being beaten when Goten wished for Goku to appear and he also added his Kamehameha. The entire time Broly was laughing and anytime they gained momentum he just increased his output pushing them back again.

It wasn't until Trunks fired a blast that "lingered" for some reason in between Broly and his green ball causing Broly to no longer be able to fire any more energy into his attack to increase it did they finally push hard enough to overwhelm Broly. It's pretty clear that had Trunks not "blocked" Broly he would have killed them all
Oh, I remember that now. Yeah, a severely injured 8-year old Trunks being able to make that much a difference against Broly there was PIS I'd say, perhaps more-so than what led to Broly's defeat in the first movie.

Then again, we didn't see Goku go all out there as I said before, who I'm pretty sure by that time was able to go SSJ3, but that might've just been one of those things written out of the movie like Vegeta and Piccolo.

Originally posted by juggerman
Yes
That was a rhetorical question.

Originally posted by juggerman
It was stupid for them to leave out Piccolo like that seeing as how he could feel Broly's power from New Vegeta while he was on Earth. Maybe he and Vegeta remembered that ass whoopin Broly layed on them last time and wanted no part of it again stick out tongue

Vegeta at this point might have been too powerful for Broly to be a serious threat seeing as how he was vastly stronger than SSJ2 Teen Gohan at this point. Or was that only due to his new Majin powers?
Well, Vegeta overcame his fear of Broly when he finally decided to try attacking him (even though it was a vain attempt), so I'd say it would be out of character for him to choose not to be involved against Broly again, especially when his son was nearly dying out there against him. stick out tongue

It's kinda hard to tell whether Vegeta had already surpassed Gohan before becoming Majin, but with his attitude toward Gohan's power decrease the whole time, especially during the Dabura fight when Vegeta was mumbling that he could beat Dabura or do better against him than Gohan could, I'm gonna guess that he did, even though we never saw Vegeta with a SSJ2-like form until he was Majin, or when he went SSJ2 against Kid Buu if you don't count the Majin power-up.

Other than that, I agree. It was a tease too though when they made us think it was Piccolo who rescued Gohan from falling in the lava or whatever with Broly at first when it was just Krillen wearing part of his costume.

juggerman

Oh no. The first movie is the king of PIS. How in Zues' butthole (The Rock) was Goku able to re open a healed wound 30 years old? After getting WTFcurbstomped for what seemed like hours? And how did Vegeta's energy (the guy who was clearly the weakest of them all since he was one shotted while everyone put up a fight) put Goku over the top when he wasn't even close to Broly with everyone else's? Just damn dumb

I know he didn't go all out but his SSJ was was probably superior to Gohan's SSJ2 at that time since Gohan was weak. Goku seemed to think Dabura was below him and him at SSJ2 was well above anything Dabura showed. Either way Broly was easily overpowering them all

Yeah i know! confused

He overcame his fear of Broly's status. After he attcked Broly he learned to fear Broly's actual might. Trunks be damned! Every Saiyan for himself! stick out tongue

It seems like he was stronger than Gohan was at the moment due to his frustration. But he probably wasn't at SSJ2 Teen Gohan level since he commented on how he was surprised that he was more powerful than "when Gohan defeated Cell" or some mess. When he fought Kid Buu id say he was about Super Cell's level

Yeah that part pissed me off. I always get mad when they just use Piccolo as a rescuer only to become fodder. He is one of my favs and he's always getting treated like shit. And then i really got pissed when it wasn't even him!

BloodRain

How many signatures will it take to get them to make a Piccolo movie?

juggerman

What would it even be about? Don't get me wrong Piccolo is the man but they've butchered his character so much his own movie would probably be shit.....

F*** it i'll still sign

BloodRain

For all I care it could be about Piccolo's daily life, waking up and going about his daily routine at home while being left out of the action that only Super Saiyans can take part in.. and Id still watch it to support the damn guy. ahah

juggerman

I think he should have gotten a power up in the Buu Saga. Maybe to put him on par with Fat Buu only to get outclassed by Super Buu or to be on par with Super Buu but to get smacked up by Super Buu w/ Gotenks or something like that.

Of course he couldn't out shine their golden boy Goku but he should have never been left in the dust like that

BloodRain

I'm not sure if being left behind or how useless they were made out to be was worse. Tien ends with a failed suicidal attack, Krillin's there to press a detonation, and Piccolo gets a final hurrah against the weakest Cell to end up as den mother to the kids :/

They should have at least been as strong as adult Gohan. C'mon, they couldn't catch up to a guy that was afk for seven years?

(Going rogue, heading to new Namek and finding a way to absorb every single Namek in a huge genocidal power up is still an option.)

juggerman

This is exactly what i was thinking! laughing

I say he goes to hell and fuses with his original Evil King Piccolo self. Then, after becoming ridiculously powerful, he decides to become the most powerful being in existance by absorbing all other Namekians (including the "Super Nameks" like Slug).

BloodRain

mmm If they gave us that instead of GT...

juggerman

Yeah and uber evil Piccolo would have made a much better story than GT. The enemy turned friend turned enemy again. Not to be confused with Vegeta now seeing as he was just a footnote in the Buu Saga.

How many episodes was Super 17 in. 4?

BloodRain

You mean a better plot than turning into a kid to travel the cosmos with a lame Trunks and the Scrappy Doo of DB? Oh, and Vegeta's being bumped down to distraction or fusion ingredient. Major disgrace.

Probably. His bit was so small that I only knew 17 was in GT from reading about it here, 7 years after watching every episode twice on TV.

juggerman

@ BloodRain
Hey i just realised i missed your post. My bad.

Which is a level of ki control. That's all im really saying here. Ive said it's not one the level of the Z Fighters but he can alter his power output and "charge up" if need be. Plus the Z Fighters have a max too and they can only power up so much until they reach it just like Frieza. Or Vegeta would have just kept powering up until he was above.... well just about anyone who whooped his ass (which is basically ever single villian)

No it is before he actually starts fighting the Z Fighters. He just starts charging as he is getting ready to fight. There are probably other times he charged as well but the 1st time wasn't for an attack iirc

Now that you mention it i think the amount is the shocking part. They were around Raditz level yet at times they could hurt Nappa (which im guessing Raditz could never do)

I guess their short bursts were very impressive

I didn't mean he definitly was going to pull harder but he was pulling and laughing which shows he wasn't trying too hard and then Gohan started pulling away and before it showed Broly atleast try to regain control Gohan kicked him. We dont know that Broly couldn't have stopped Gohan had he tried harder but we do know he didn't seem to be trying very hard at 1st

brb

NemeBro

Originally posted by BloodRain
Nothing yet shows that Dabura can become stronger than Cell, until then Cell and Broly are in the same ballpark. Other than Goku's explicit statement that he is, in fact, stronger?

juggerman

ok im back

We have to include Trunks and Goten because Gohan couldn't do it himself. He was overwhelmed the entire fight and only got the win due to the help he recieved from his fam and Trunks. Had Trunks not blocked Broly Gohan and Goten alone could not have overpowered him. Goku probably could have but it was very clear Gohan was out of his league the entire fight. Even Goku at SSJ1 wasn't putting Gohan over the top and he was probably more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan was at this point

Well not really since Dabura was not as impressive against Gohan as Broly was. If dabura was slightly below Cell Broly could still be above Cell since He showed he was much higher above Gohan than Dabura showed

I agree they are comparable but by Goku's remakes it seems Dabura edges Cell out slightly and Broly's showing against Gohan was far more impressive than Dabura's

BTW i had a much better response typed up at first but deleted it by accident. Hopefully this one will suffice since i forgot what i said originally sad

cdtm

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Why again is Broly made out to be some unstoppable wave of death and destruction no matter who he's pitted up against?

You know how Hulks concept of being an unstoppable kid having a temper tantrum and smashing everything and everyone around him is a breeding ground for fanboys?

Brolly is the DBZ Hulk. wink

*Likes both Brolly and Hulk ^_^; *

Mr Marvel

Originally posted by BloodRain
Also has nothing to do with the Earth. Ah the whole Sun heat thing is stupid. On one hand being on the Sun kills Cooler, on the other we have Frieza surviving the heat and force (if barely) of an exploding planet.

Its a sad day when fire kills DB characters.

MAN you have to realize a star is not comparable to a planet busting energy beam, the reactions that occur on the surface is akin to nuclear explosions CONSTANTLY...oh and by the way Broly was only killed due to PIS.

Even when he was killed he made it thru the CORE of the SUN, then almost out the other side...only green smoke came out the back.

carver9

Don't know why people are using Gohan as a reference on who is more powerful between Broly and Cell. Adult Gohan during the time he fought Broly wasn't as powerful as his kid Super Saiyan two form. Not even close. Cell>Broly.

juggerman

Gohan was also at around "half power" when he completely destroyed Super Cell.

Also might i remind you that the same level Goku fought them both. He held his own against Cell rather nicely while Broly completely wiped the floor with his face until plot kicked in.

carver9

Originally posted by juggerman
Gohan was also at around "half power" when he completely destroyed Super Cell.

Also might i remind you that the same level Goku fought them both. He held his own against Cell rather nicely while Broly completely wiped the floor with his face until plot kicked in.

Gohan had help when he beat Cell...he didn't do that by himself.

The same Goku did not fight them and let's not forget, Cell wasn't at full power until he faced Gohan.

Damborgson

Broly wins

juggerman

Originally posted by carver9
Gohan had help when he beat Cell...he didn't do that by himself.

The same Goku did not fight them and let's not forget, Cell wasn't at full power until he faced Gohan.

Gohan sh!t stomped Cell. Then killed a suped up Cell at half power. Cell was distracted by a love tap from Vegeta which really did nothing to him.

Goku was uber stomped by Broly when he had help in seconds. Then Broly's power grew alot and he stomped them all again with even more help. So Broly (before his power boost) ran thru a Goku (that was working a holding back Cell) AND Goku's pals. Seems like they are at the very least comparable. I'd go as far to say that Broly murders pre resurrection Cell. Super Cell tho may be a different story

Damborgson

Well yeah just look at how Broly did against Gohan who stalemated a being compared to perfect cell. ( I doubt Tori did that by accident) Then look how he did against Broly who no sold pretty much everything Gohan hit him with.

Ridley_Prime

Originally posted by juggerman
Gohan sh!t stomped Cell. Then killed a suped up Cell at half power. Cell was distracted by a love tap from Vegeta which really did nothing to him.

Goku was uber stomped by Broly when he had help in seconds. Then Broly's power grew alot and he stomped them all again with even more help. So Broly (before his power boost) ran thru a Goku (that was working a holding back Cell) AND Goku's pals. Seems like they are at the very least comparable. I'd go as far to say that Broly murders pre resurrection Cell. Super Cell tho may be a different story
At the very least Vegeta's attack slightly damaged Cell enough to make him flinch with the way he reacted to it, while sadly the attacks from Piccolo and the other Z-fighters together didn't make him move at all in comparison.

And if teen Gohan's power could get cut in half by an attack that was only meant to finish off Vegeta, imagine how much more an attack like that from Super Cell would do to the weaker and slower adult Gohan.

psycho gundam

Originally posted by stargun
Vegeta casually blowing up a planet back in the Saiyan Saga for example. non-canon

juggerman

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
At the very least Vegeta's attack slightly damaged Cell enough to make him flinch with the way he reacted to it, while sadly the attacks from Piccolo and the other Z-fighters together didn't make him move at all in comparison.

And if teen Gohan's power could get cut in half by an attack that was only meant to finish off Vegeta, imagine how much more an attack like that from Super Cell would do to the weaker and slower adult Gohan.

Cell was also blown in half by Vegeta and Goku. And Trunks put a hurting on him as well before Cell realised Trunks was slow. These same guys did absolutly nothing to Broly

Ridley_Prime

You're talking about things that happened to Perfect Cell before he got the zenkai boost. I was referring strictly to just Super Cell. Wasn't denying that Broly wins round 1. Round 2 as you said though, could be a different story.

juggerman

Where do we stand on Broly's Zenkai boost? Did he recieve on after getting that beating on New Vegeta?

Ridley_Prime

I'm not sure actually. I guess it's possible he could've gotten one, though I don't remember it being mentioned or anything like it was for Cell.

Darkstorm Zero

I've got a question... Why does one assume that Gohan was at half strength when he killed S.Cell?

I mean, Goku outright states from the afterlife that Gohan had to unleash all he had to overcome Cell's Solar Kamehameha... Eventually he did so, he may have been down an arm, but he did not suddenly lose half his strength, and by the end of that duel, he was expending everything he had.

juggerman

He was giving everything he had left. I think Piccolo and maybe others commented on how Gohan's power took a big hit. Dunno if they actually said "half" tho

Based

Villelater

the only chance cell has is create cell jrs...and that still would be a big loss

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by juggerman
He was giving everything he had left. I think Piccolo and maybe others commented on how Gohan's power took a big hit. Dunno if they actually said "half" tho

Originally posted by Based
They said half if not more than half.

Thats because Gohan was intentionally holding back. Goku commented on this specifically.

The thing about Gohan's power level is that it explosively increases when it is most needed, it always does this. The several times to does with Frieza, Nappa, Raditz... It is not out of the norm for his power to have spiked insanely when combined with the SSj2 stage. Infact, it would be more akin to Broly's illogical power jumps than not...

Based

Except Gohan did say he was giving it his all. Goku didn't believe him but when everyone's gonna die would he really hold back?

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Based
Except Gohan did say he was giving it his all. Goku didn't believe him but when everyone's gonna die would he really hold back?

We see it the very next moment though, Gohan's power jumped drastically when he overpowered Cell, You certainly can't tell me he was going all out before that, because we can see that that is bull$h!t.

juggerman

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
We see it the very next moment though, Gohan's power jumped drastically when he overpowered Cell, You certainly can't tell me he was going all out before that, because we can see that that is bull$h!t.

But how much did his power drop when Cell hit him? And how much did his power increase with his "power spike"? Did it take him back to maximum? Did his power exceed his previous limits? Did it only take him to 75% of his original power? That's that part i think we would need to know.

By the way Dark who do you think takes the "W" here?

Villelater

Vegeta and Goku blew cell in half...goku quit early that fight because he's lazy nowadays when technicly he could of beat Cell...

juggerman

Yeah i'm thinking if they could completely obliterate half of him then had they altered their blasts a bit they could have taken him out for good

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by juggerman
But how much did his power drop when Cell hit him? And how much did his power increase with his "power spike"? Did it take him back to maximum? Did his power exceed his previous limits? Did it only take him to 75% of his original power? That's that part i think we would need to know.

I would say he would have exceeded his previous cap, because thats the way hit always worked before. His "rage mode" always seems to react to his opponents power. And lets be frank here, in order to overcome Super Cell, he would have had to make a jump of power that would have exceeded his previously demonstrated SSJ2 norms

Originally posted by juggerman
By the way Dark who do you think takes the "W" here?

I would have to still side with Broly here. The biggest issue is that Broly seems to have an unlimited Zenkai booster constantly going off. His power is much like Gohan's "rage mode", except that it doesn't need a prior reaction toi trigger, and it seems to be everlasting as long as he remains in LSSJ mode.

Super Cell would have to peg Broly very early on in the fight, like when he is in normal mode. After that, Broly shrugged off a hit from USSJ Vegeta in the back of the head and was completely oblivious to it. USSJ Vegeta actually caused Super Cell to stagger and take enough effort to repulse him while beaming at Gohan.

juggerman

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I would say he would have exceeded his previous cap, because thats the way hit always worked before. His "rage mode" always seems to react to his opponents power. And lets be frank here, in order to overcome Super Cell, he would have had to make a jump of power that would have exceeded his previously demonstrated SSJ2 norms

Was there ever anything to suggest Super Cell was superior to SSJ2 Gohan? I know he was superior to his Reg Perfect form but he never actually squared off against full powered Gohan like he did before he came back. He may have still been weaker than Gohan meaning Gohan wouldn't have had to exceed his initial power to overcome Cell

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by juggerman
Was there ever anything to suggest Super Cell was superior to SSJ2 Gohan? I know he was superior to his Reg Perfect form but he never actually squared off against full powered Gohan like he did before he came back. He may have still been weaker than Gohan meaning Gohan wouldn't have had to exceed his initial power to overcome Cell

Umm, the fact that his Zenkai boosted him to the point where he could use a death beam to render Gohan down an arm?

Galan007

It has always been my opinion that when Cell regenerated into his Jesus form, he effectively ascended to a SSJ2. If you recall, after his resurrection bolts of lightning could be seen constantly surging all over his body-- just like a SSJ2. Here are some very blatant examples:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14158137/350508.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14158148/350602.gif.html
Then tack on the fact that, by Cell's own accord, he received a "massive power up" from the resurrection, and I think it is sensible, and moreover logical, to assume that he became a SSJ2.

BloodRain

SSJ2-ish. He has Saiyan DNA but he hasn't been shown accessing a regular SS state.

Galan007

You don't think his power aura (portrayed with a golden hue in the show) and the sporadic surges of lightning around his body after he resurrected, are indicative of SSJ transformations? Not only did Cell have more Saiyan genes than anything else(by a LOT), but I also can't think of a reason why traits exclusive to Saiyans would be illustrated so identically if Cell wasn't meant to be tapping his 'Saiyan side'..?

BloodRain

I agree that its the exact image of what a SS2 appears, but if it was Cell becoming a SS2 that would mean he'd have had to have passed the first SS stage alltogether.

Galan007

That's the thing though-- I think it's fairly evident that Cell was a first level SSJ.

Take the power up phase of his and Goku's battle(this was before Cell's Jesus resurrection)...

Goku powers up:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14158396/db34pg017.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14158397/db34pg018.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14158398/db34pg019.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14158399/db34pg020.gif.html

Cell powers up:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14158400/db34pg022.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14158401/db34pg023.gif.html

After they are done powering up, their power auras are identical:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14158402/db34pg024.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14158403/db34pg025.gif.html

In the show, not only are the power auras identically portrayed, but the sound effect they make is identical as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuwhx28Vm00

BloodRain

Difference is that Goku was powering up the SS state he was already in, while Cell was just powering up his normal form.

I guess its possible that his normal form is in something like a permanent SS mode, but nothing will really confirm or deny what states he's in.

juggerman

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Umm, the fact that his Zenkai boosted him to the point where he could use a death beam to render Gohan down an arm?

An unprepared Gohan using his body as a shield for Vegeta. Goku managed to harm Cell and drop his ki as well but that didn't mean he was on Cell's level. If Cell couldn't regen he woulda been down much more than an arm fighting even Vegeta

Galan007

Originally posted by BloodRain
Difference is that Goku was powering up the SS state he was already in, while Cell was just powering up his normal form.

I guess its possible that his normal form is in something like a permanent SS mode, but nothing will really confirm or deny what states he's in. Well, it's not like Cell is going to sprout spikey golden hair, but based on what we saw(and heard), Cell definitely appeared to be accessing the powers of a SSJ1 in his pre-resurrection form, and the powers of a SSJ2 in his post-resurrection form.

*His pre-resurrection power aura was illustrated exactly like Goku's in the manga. In the show, his aura also had the exact same golden color, and made the exact same sound effect.

*His post-resurrection power aura was further out from his body(which is the case with a SSJ2), he had energy bolts constantly surging around him(which is the case with a SSJ2), and outright stated that he received a "massive" power up(which is the case with a SSJ2.) In the show, the color of his aura/bolts, as well as the sound effect the aura/bolts produced, were identical to that of SSJ2 Gohan.

Like I mentioned before, the similarities are too identical to be different, imo.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by juggerman
An unprepared Gohan using his body as a shield for Vegeta. Goku managed to harm Cell and drop his ki as well but that didn't mean he was on Cell's level. If Cell couldn't regen he woulda been down much more than an arm fighting even Vegeta

Unprepared is hardly the term one would use to describe that...

That is speculation, and not based on anything remotely solid. The only time Cell was ever truly harmed by a direct fight with Vegeta was when he took a Final Flash head on. Hey look, under that same mentality, I can say krillin could FUBAR anyone else in the cast with kienzan, but we already know thats bullshit.

juggerman

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Unprepared is hardly the term one would use to describe that...

That is speculation, and not based on anything remotely solid. The only time Cell was ever truly harmed by a direct fight with Vegeta was when he took a Final Flash head on. Hey look, under that same mentality, I can say krillin could FUBAR anyone else in the cast with kienzan, but we already know thats bullshit.

He was unprepared. He saw Cell about to kill Vegeta and simoly reacted. He threw his body in the way. He didn't try to block or bat it away at all he just let it smash him up. Now going by DBZ logic a weaker person can harm/kill a much stronger person if they aren't perpared.

Glad you brought up Krillin cuz i was just thinking about him and that attack. Nappa was ridiculously stronger than him yet a kienzan would have killed him. Hell Krillin could have the vastly superior Frieza with it as well had Frieza not dodged. Not to mention Krillin lopped Frieza's tail completely off while Cell was only able to injure Gohan's arm

My point is that Cell wouldn't have had to be at SSJ2 Gohan's level to pull off what he did. He could have come back a lot stronger but still be weaker than full power Gohan

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by juggerman
He was unprepared. He saw Cell about to kill Vegeta and simoly reacted. He threw his body in the way. He didn't try to block or bat it away at all he just let it smash him up. Now going by DBZ logic a weaker person can harm/kill a much stronger person if they aren't perpared.

That does not mean he was not prepared, because he saw the attack comming and reacted to it, thats the very definition of being prepared. What he was not prepared for was how much stronger the attack was compared to what Cell was throwing around in their prior engagement. He thought he was strong enough to tank it, and he was wrong.

Originally posted by juggerman
Glad you brought up Krillin cuz i was just thinking about him and that attack. Nappa was ridiculously stronger than him yet a kienzan would have killed him. Hell Krillin could have the vastly superior Frieza with it as well had Frieza not dodged. Not to mention Krillin lopped Frieza's tail completely off while Cell was only able to injure Gohan's arm

And yet, when Krillin used the kienzan on Cell's neck, Cell not only tanked it, but was completely oblivious to it, and the Kienzan shatered like glass.

Originally posted by juggerman
My point is that Cell wouldn't have had to be at SSJ2 Gohan's level to pull off what he did. He could have come back a lot stronger but still be weaker than full power Gohan

And yet it took the "Rage Boost" for SSJ2 Gohan to overcome SP Cell. You cannot ignore this.