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FotJ Luke, RotS Yoda and RotS Mace run a gauntlet:

TWO SCENARIOS:
1. They have 3 hours rest between the battles.
2. They have full rest before each battle.

SETTING:
Geonosis Arena

How far do they ago in each scenario?

1. Dooku, Malgus and Savage Oppress
2. Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn and Corran Horn
3. Galen Marek, Satele Shan and Nomi Sunrider
4. Exar Kun (with Amulets), Revan and OT Vader
5. DE Sidious, Bane (with Orbalisks) and Caedus

Under scenario one: 3 tests, 4 only troubles them by way of Kun, 5 they fall as their strength fails. Even with their ability to replenish themselves in the Force I don't think they could make it.

Scenario two: Both sides take losses. I'm not sure who goes up against Bane while he's juiced by his Orbs, but whoever does is dead. Caedus falls to any of the three Jedi he faces as all are his superiors in sabers and the force. That leaves any two of the Jedi facing Bane and Sidious. In sabers I'd say likely stalemate normally, but Bane can go completely offensive with almost no fear of being wounded, possibly even allowing him to attack both remaining Jedi at close range while Sidious tools with them in the Force.

This is actually a pretty good setup. The relative closeness will keep any over-the-top Force attacks from being unleashed but there would certainly be some fireworks. Looking forward to see what others say as I really think this could go multiple ways.

I think both Yoda and Luke are superior to Bane overall in sabers by just a small amount, but again Bane has to worry almost nothing about defense and that's what aids him here. As to shatterpoint that is something I was considering as well. I assume it would work, but it's also a matter of if it only allows him to kill the targeted Orbalisk or if the strike is enough to penetrate and leave a major wound. Regardless, if any damage is done they'll be pumping toxins into Bane which certainly wouldn't aid in the fighting.

Maybe the Jedi take this, but I think it really depends on whether it's three one-on-one duels or if perhaps Bane and Sidious engage the three Jedi with Sabers while Caedus conjures up something. Sidious is certainly a better Darkside practitioner than Caedus but I think Palps would better serve the cause helping Bane to occupy all three Jedi. I have to say though for all the talk about arcane techniques that Jacen learned during his travels he really was pretty whack as a Lord of the Sith; he's certainly the weakest link here, but I think that helps to make this a more balanced fight.

Stop at 3 for scenario one.
Barely clear for scenario two.

Malgus should be in number 4 instead of featless Revan, that would make up a team with immense amound of TK power, so they possibly would be able to handle Yoda and Windu with Force.

Otherwise, 5 is the only one they could lose.

Can't agree that Yoda would be able to defeat any of those fast. With all his uber power his strike's kinetic energy is way too small. Not only because of his much smaller weight and strength but because he does most of his strikes in the air. He out speeds rather than overpowers. And we saw that even Dooku could keep up with his speed.
In this case Caedus is as fast as Luke, Sidious is faster than Dooku and Bane apart from speed has Obralisks.

I would put Caedus against Windu because of the way he uses kicks and punches. In fight with Jaina he was kicking her nearly after every lightsaber strike. And he crippled even Luke with kicks. Woudn't put him against Yoda as his kicks would be useless against such a small oponent.

Bane I would put against Luke as wearing Obralisk is the best way to confront a Gary Stu.

In general Jedi fight much better as a team. Moreover, Luke can merge all three into battle-meld, so they fight as a single creature.

However, number 5 has Jacen, who is one of the best battle-meld practitioners, so they will get the same advantage of cordinated fight.

Yoda > Malgus / Revan in the Force
Lets be realistic.
Yoda had hell lot of struggle to prevent a pillar from falling on Kenobi and Anakin.

Malgus with clap of hands sent wave that spread around and turned cars upside down.

Vader could keep up with his TK even against Marek who could move star destroyer. Marek managed to overpower him only after use of Dun Moch and getting enraged.

And Kun has talisman with which he can conjure immence blasts.

And I didn't say that Yoda and Windu will get handled, only that there is possibility. They are still skilled Jedi that can find ways to dodge or defend against immense TK attacks. And of course they have Luke who can provide good defence for them.


For god sake.
Vaapad is state of mind and lightsaber form.
State of mind allows him to fight on his full potential. And lightsaber Form is the style he mastered to exeptional level.
It DOES NOT level him up with darksiders and it DOES NOT matter that they are darksiders AT ALL.


I will leave that "arguably" for other topic.
It doesn't matter at all that Dooku could block immencely strong attacks of Grievous and Anakin. Yoda's attacks carry little strength but he overwhelmes with speed, agility and quantity of those attacks.


And? Did I say Yoda would lose?
My point is that Yoda's physical limitations and lack of kinetic energy in his strikes make it very difficult for him to win anyone in lightsaber combat, if he doesn't have significant speed advantage. At the same time no matter how strong and fast opponent is whether it is Sidious or even Luke, they will not be able to penetrate Yoda's defences becase he is too small and agile.

And notice that I didn't say that they will lose, I said: "could lose", which is only possibility. And explained how weaknesses and advantages of the characters could be exploited for team 5 to win.
Alternatively, Luke could engage Jacen, Yoda - Bane and Windu - Sidious, this way ultimate team is much more likely to win.

Originally posted by Arhael
I will leave that "arguably" for other topic.
It doesn't matter at all that Dooku could block immencely strong attacks of Grievous and Anakin. Yoda's attacks carry little strength but he overwhelmes with speed, agility and quantity of those attacks.

I wouldn't make the assumption that he's weak just because he's small. He overpowers Sidious is a direct saberlock at one point in their duel. This is the same Sidious who held off Savage Opress with one hand!

And he did that, when standing on the floor - something solid to push against, when using strength. But, when he attacks, he is in air.
If you punch someone, when your feet are solid on the floor with perfect balance, he will get knocked down. But if you punch, when in jump or simply unbalanced, impact will be a lot smaller.

Yoda with Force can still himself in air to prevent him flying away like a baseball from a bat but it is a lot of extra effort. He can muster a lot of strength and overpower, when defencively grounded on the floor. But when he attacks and jumps, he needs to redirect a lot of his effort to overcome his limitations such as lack of height, weight and strength.


That platform in RotS required less effort, than pillar simply because it was floating on repulsors.
And that cartoon you mentioned obviously exagerated what Jedi can do with the Force. We have Yoda and Windu and other Jedi participating in Geonosis, that's what Jedi of Old Republic were really capable against armies of droids. We have Luke and Mara struggling a lot against single droideka and trying to out wit it, they couldn't simply disable it with Force. Similarly Qui-Gon and Kenobi were on the retreat from two droidekas. Sorry, but that cartoon is bullshit.


Here is the truth.
Force users draw on the Force. Windu couldn't draw on Sidious' power because Sidious wasn't giving any. Sidious was drawing on the Force as well and empowering his muscles to give physical attacks. You can't draw power from physical attacks, you can only block or deflect them with your own strength and skill and Vaapad ia a combat skill.
Vaapad description says that he channels his inner darkness, it doesn't say anything about outer darkness. Channeling outer darkness would be a Force power but Vaapad is NOT a Force power.
There is, however, concept of drawing on emotions of others but it is, also, Force power, not to mention Sith power.

When Windu was deflecting lightning, it said:
"Power passed into him and out again without touching him.

And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source"
- But power DID NOT pass into him, it was deflected by his lightsaber - which is a common Jedi technique. But, when he was without lightsaber and power truly passed into him, you know what happened. Vaapad is state of mind that requires practitioner to enjoy fight and that's what Windu did.


Really? Re-watch AotC and you will see that Dooku blocks his strikes even with one hand and doesn't even get overwhelmed and attacks back. Fight looks pretty equal. There was no strong impact between their attacks, Dooku's style lacks kinetic energy and it was still enough to block Yoda's strikes even with one hand.


My reasoning is different.
Bane because of Obralisk will most likely win, if he fights Luke or Windu. But Yoda is too small and agile thus can counter Bane's attacks much easier. Also, Luke's and Windu's immence stength would be useless against Bane because Obralisk is indestructible. And Yoda's superior speed and agiliy is far more benefitial to reach Bane's vulnerable parts such as wrists and neck.

And there is strong reason why I put Luke against Jacen. Luke knows how Jacen fights unlike other two and he, also, utilizes strikes and kicks during combat. And still Luke sustained a lot of serious injuries.

When Windu kicked, Palpatine fell down and and lost his lightsaber.
In contrary Luke elbowed Jacen into temple, kneed him in the chin, snap-kicked into stomach, blind-sided with poke into an eye and shattered a face bone with another elbow strike. And despite all these concussions and injuies Jacen was still capable to fight. Moreover, after each concussion he dodged every killing blow that imidietly followed and countered with his own cripling attacks and even broke Luke's knee.

Windu managed to defeat Sidious who fought as pure fencer. But do you really think he would fair against Caedus' strikes and kicks any better than Luke? Imho Windu will go down hard.

Originally posted by Arhael
...do you really think he would fair against Caedus' strikes and kicks any better than Luke?

First, you have no humble opinion. You've made it clear that humble is NOT a word or trait that fits your character. Secondly, YES, Mace should fair well against Caedus. Mace has SICK H2H combat skills... surpassing Luke... IMHO.

Originally posted by Arhael
And he did that, when standing on the floor - something solid to push against, when using strength. But, when he attacks, he is in air.
If you punch someone, when your feet are solid on the floor with perfect balance, he will get knocked down. But if you punch, when in jump or simply unbalanced, impact will be a lot smaller.

Yoda with Force can still himself in air to prevent him flying away like a baseball from a bat but it is a lot of extra effort. He can muster a lot of strength and overpower, when defencively grounded on the floor. But when he attacks and jumps, he needs to redirect a lot of his effort to overcome his limitations such as lack of height, weight and strength.


What the **** are you talking about?

This argument can work if we discard the fact that Yoda is using the Force to hype his speed, stamina AND strength.
Guess what, WITHOUT his Force-imbued strength he is just an old, weak being at the end of his life span.
WITH the Force he is capable of jumping around at ridiculous speed and carrying a house-sized gun on his back.
I don’t see how you come up with “an extra effort” when, obviously, Yoda is not relying on his physical power.

Let me explain it differently. For example, Luke with his much bigger weight can stand in solid position on the floor and put his whole Force effort on empowering muscles, when striking. But Yoda cannot still himself in one place without Force because of much smaller weight and the fact that he is in air. If he put his whole strength into empowering muscles on striking opponent, he would fly away like a baseball. Unlike Luke he needs to use Force to root himself in one place on every strike, plus his original strength is much smaller and he needs to constantly jump. This is my point of Yoda using a lot of extra effort to overcome his limitations.
Thus, his attacks don't carry a lot of strength but as compensation they are more numerous and he is more agile.


The most obvious proof is comparison between Yoda's stronger effort to stop slowly falling pillar in AotC and lesser effort to abruptly stop platform falling on high speed.

Another one is that we see Sidious holding in air at least 4-5 platforms in air simultaniously. In total throwing around 10 platforms or more and all the while laughing with no visible effort. Is he so much cooler than Yoda, who struggled a lot to lift single pillar?

Two platforms he lifts around 10-20 meters up before throwing. Why using so much effort to lift it so high, when acceleration downward could be achieved very easily? Also, the speed with which he lifted them and then threw is proportionally the same.

In general platforms with repulsors off would fall down much faster and because of gravity they woudn't fly in streight lines.

True. But there is still enormous difference between chaneling effort of pushing Star Destroyer to redirect it's fall and grasping two equally huge star ships and pulling them on each other with such strength that they literally merge together into single explosion.


Let me get it even more straight.

Deflecting lightning with lightsaber is NOT Vaapad technique.

Moreover, this power redirecting is compared "as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt". - Blaster bolt like any attack has strength and impact, Force user needs to use his own strength to deflect it. Same way to deflect lightsaber attack Force user needs to use his own strength.

Even moreover, read Vaapad description itself.
"Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The" - It doesn't say anything about using opponents power of opponent.

Anakin:
" The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent.

And it was darkening.

Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

There was no Jedi restraint here.

Mace Windu was cutting loose" - As you see Anakin feels Windu losing Jedi restraint. He doesn't feel him redicting power but he feels his fury and "poisonous abscess" in his heart.
But Windu in his mind percepts it as accepting fury and speed and making superconduit loop. In other words
his state of mind allowes him to use darkside witbout succumbing to it.

In comparison Dooku's state of mind:
"The dark side didn't bring him to the center of the universe. It made him the center.
...
He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall." - If we gonna take Windu's loop as a real thingy, then Dooku is for real can become center of universe.


"lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on" - It doesn't say anything about concentration levels, it says about him not having lightsaber.



Maybe that's why, in cramped space, when he couldn't outmanoeuver Opress and had to block his strike full on, he unlike Sidious got disarmed and knocked backward.


Did I talk about h2h combat? I was talking about using strikes and kicks during lightsaber combat. Windu kicked only once in film and didn't kick in novel at all. Luke defeated Palpatine before he learned to utilize strikes and kicks. And put up much better fight against prime Luke, he kicked Luke 3 times and punched an broke his knee.
Jaina received mandalorian h2h combat and, yet, it was Jacen kicking her after nearly every lightsaber strike.

But in any case you don't have to agree with my opinion that Windu would go down hard. I merely gave reasons why it is better for him to take on Palpatine instead.

Frankly, the fight against Bane is actually pretty even. Luke and Mace can Shatterpoint the Orbalisks, and Yoda can essentially go toe-to-toe with anybody.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'd be weary of this. As canon as it may be we have been told by numerous sources that IT IS Exaggerated.

So as reasonable debators we need to consider that when comparing feats between different mediums. Otherwise the feat comparisons would be grossly unfair.

For example if we compare how a weaponless Mace dealt with hundreds of droids in the CWMini, to how a weaponless Dooku got captured by 30 Pirates in the New CW Series, then we would have no choice but to assume that Mace is >>> than Dooku in the Force (which I'm hoping no one here actually believes).
true, but it doesn't change the fact that all that media fall into EU , which tends to "exaggerate" Focre, especially video games.

And maybe Dooku had an off-day. Give the old man a break

Marek's Star Destroyer feat is not necessarily exagerated.
Yoda used his raw power to stop pillar and floating platform nearly instantly but Marek was channeling his power a lot longer. And channeling allows to focus on emotions and other things to gradually draw more and more on the Force. Dorsk 81 pushed 17 Star Destroyers out of Yavin system after prolonged channeling of power of 30 Jedi through him. Posted this feat in general thread:
killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=405188&from=thread&pagenumber=1381#post13986724

Let me give other reasons why Marek is more powerful. First reason is because he is darksider and they are generally are more powerful. Dooku was Jedi most of his life and, yet, he became more powerful as Sith. Anakin on two occasions overpowered Dooku by tapping into his anger. Windu's Vaapad allowed him to utilize darkside, thus making him powerful enough to defeat Sidious. Sith unlike Jedi benifit from emotions, while Jedi restrain themselves.
Marek in particular constantly strained his capabilities much more than even most other Sith and his psycho rage was boosting his power a lot.

In comparison Yoda rarely used Force and mostly passively meditated. Luke post DE, also, like Yoda used as least Force as possible and as the result he was getting fatiqued very fast.

But several factors put Luke above Yoda.
First, Luke uses positive emotions unlike Old Order which promoted no emotions. So, Luke can be Jedi without restraint drawing on Force with strong emotions like Sith.

Second, unlike Yoda, Luke was often driven into situations, where he had to exert himself like Marek. During Vong War he got back into prime because of that. First, he moved black hole and lost consciousness. Later he projected illusion of Mara's ship and concealed real one both visually and on scanners. Exertion was so strong that his face wrinkled like Palpatine's. In Swarm War he replicated this feat but it didn't age him as much because of previous exertions he got more powerful. In FotJ he strained himself on many occasions and got Force exhausted at least three times.

And third, Luke with Jacen developed techniques that allowed them to draw heavily on the Force even after getting exhausted:
"During the past year, he and Jacen had been working on overload techniques, so he could endure the pain and fatigue almost indefinitely. His body would pay a steep price, aging a year in a matter of minutes, but he knew he would not collapse."

Another Yoda's disadvantage is that because of his physical limitations he needs to draw more on the Force then others, so he gets tired faster. Also, because of his old age his body cannot indure as much strain as when he was younger. We see how Sidious abuses Force by throwing multiple platforms. And Yoda conserves his reserves by dodging all of them but last one. As Jedi he uses less Force more wisely.

I am not saying that Yoda is weak. His raw power is likely above even Sidious'. Most likely he will be able to defend against TK of Malgus, Vader and Kun. However, if constantly bombarded by TK and other powers, for all the reasons above Yoda will be the first one to get exhausted out of three Jedi.

As you see, there is a lot of reasons why it is possible for Yoda and Windu to get Force handled.

Originally posted by axel_jovan


And maybe Dooku had an off-day. Give the old man a break

Only problem is in the commentary to that episode Dave Filoni specifically says Dooku could Not have taken all those pirates, because there was too many of them surrounding him, and sheer numbers kill the Jedi as shown in AOTC.

He starts off the commentary by saying "Yes Dooku is Extremely Powerful BUT...."

So what he most likely could have done in the CW Mini he certainly can't do in the CW Series.

That's why when going by feats it's best to compare feats from the same medium, and be careful when comparing feats between mediums especially when we are specifically told one medium Is exaggerated.

The thing is that there's no way to know how exaggerated it is or what that means. Did Mace Windu not fight a droid army barehanded? If so then what really happened? Maybe he just fought a few? There aren't any answers to these questions so the only thing we have is what's actually on screen.

^ Good point.

Alternatively we could just ignore them since its impossible to judge what actually happened and use the series in threads for feats, i.e. The 'Arheal Defence.'

The same council members get blitzed by Palpatine like they hold lightsaber first time in their hands. Anakin simultaneously fights against Cin Dralig and his students with one hand behind his back.
It's a common misconception to assume that, if council member, then strong. Jedi become masters and council members not because of power.

As for Krell, he unlike those council members had two saber staffs, which makes deflecting blaster bolts much easier, while Windu fought army without lightsaber. And Krell fought a few dozens of troopers, while again Windu - countless army. Also, Krell's Force wave didn't even kill or knock unconscious anybody, while Windu's handled countless droids, so Force attack wasn't exaggerated either.


Ok. I gave you many reasons irrelevant to Force portrayal with proofs from various sources. You gave a single feat from single source. How about you try to do the same?


Alternatively we could just ignore them since its impossible to judge what actually happened and use the series in threads for feats, i.e. The 'Arheal Defence.'
Or just stick to 'Nephthys' offence.

Yea, being a good duelist is one of the reasons someone can get on the council, but not the only one. Plo Koon, Fisto, Anakin, Obi-wan.

However, it can also be because you're a good pilot (Tiin), a good diplomat (several of the pre-CW ones), or what have you. Cin Drallig may have been the best lightsaber *teacher* even if he wasn't the strongest with it, for example, and that could be why he's battlemaster.

That said, council members do tend to be fairly strong, and Ki Adi Mundi, someone with a fair number of showings under his belt and primarily known for his combat abilities, was one of the ones taking down by troopers on screen.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, being a good duelist is one of the reasons someone can get on the council, but not the only one. Plo Koon, Fisto, Anakin, Obi-wan.

However, it can also be because you're a good pilot (Tiin), a good diplomat (several of the pre-CW ones), or what have you. Cin Drallig may have been the best lightsaber *teacher* even if he wasn't the strongest with it, for example, and that could be why he's battlemaster.

That said, council members do tend to be fairly strong, and Ki Adi Mundi, someone with a fair number of showings under his belt and primarily known for his combat abilities, was one of the ones taking down by troopers on screen.
Just curious, where did you get info that they get into council because of skills? I always thought that they were getting there by proving their wisdom and dedication to Order.

In any case there was at least dozen of troopers shooting at Mundi from close range simultaneously. I don't see how any Jedi would survive it, especially, when in confusion of why they turned against him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Just curious, where did you get info that they get into council because of skills? I always thought that they were getting there by proving their wisdom and dedication to Order.


I don't think there's anything directly stated on how they select; I'm just going on what each member is most famous for.

I.e. Ki Adi Mundi is a well-known warrior, so that's probably a large part of why he's in. Tiin is the order's best pilot. And so on.

Well as far as I know Count Dooku was not on the Jedi Council, and he was probably the second most powerful Jedi Pre-TPM.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well as far as I know Count Dooku was not on the Jedi Council, and he was probably the second most powerful Jedi Pre-TPM.

He was likely out of favor due to holding different views, similar to Qui-gon.

He turned down the opportunity for personal reasons. Apparently he wished to remain "more independent as a proactive peacekeeper."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And what is AOTC not canon?? Where Mace with the aid of his Lightsaber and numerous other Jedi could not repeat any such feat.

Such a huge focal point of the SW story can not simply be put down to an inconsistency or plot hole. Whilst Mace's feat on Dantooine can easily be chalked down to an "Exaggeration" like it has been stated to have been, without it making any big change to canon.

Dantooine was after the initial conflicts on Geonosis. The Jedi did improve over time in their Force and combative abilities.

Two months after Dantooine, Mace developed invisible speed with Vapaad, that he used to beat the ever-loving crap out of the monster Kar Vastor, and after an extremely brutal fight, had nearly defeated the Lor Pelek.

Mace's speed was sufficiently developed after Dantooine; that when he broke into a bunker fill of dozens and dozens of machine gun-wielding Balawai Militiamen, who themselves admitted that they knew Mace would be fast enough to mow down most them before dying. (These men had gun-turrets and mutliple firing apparatuses directly fixed on an exhausted Windu from the front, when he entered the bunker.)

On Haruun Kal, Mace had been exhausted, injured, had low mental-morale and was utterly broken-hearted due to his Padawan's descent into madness.

After developing his speed on Dantooine and Haruun Kal, it is partially this which is what gave him what he needed to topple Sidious in a duel, whereas other less-developed Jedi Masters were destroyed before the Dark Lord.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Dantooine was after the initial conflicts on Geonosis. The Jedi did improve over time in their Force and combative abilities.

Two months after Dantooine, Mace developed invisible speed with Vapaad, that he used to beat the ever-loving crap out of the monster Kar Vastor, and after an extremely brutal fight, had nearly defeated the Lor Pelek.

Mace's speed was sufficiently developed after Dantooine; that when he broke into a bunker fill of dozens and dozens of machine gun-wielding Balawai Militiamen, who themselves admitted that they knew Mace would be fast enough to mow down most them before dying. (These men had gun-turrets and mutliple firing apparatuses directly fixed on an exhausted Windu from the front, when he entered the bunker.)

On Haruun Kal, Mace had been exhausted, injured, had low mental-morale and was utterly broken-hearted due to his Padawan's descent into madness.

After developing his speed on Dantooine and Haruun Kal, it is partially this which is what gave him what he needed to topple Sidious in a duel, whereas other less-developed Jedi Masters were destroyed before the Dark Lord.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Dantooine was after the initial conflicts on Geonosis. The Jedi did improve over time in their Force and combative abilities.

Two months after Dantooine, Mace developed invisible speed with Vapaad, that he used to beat the ever-loving crap out of the monster Kar Vastor, and after an extremely brutal fight, had nearly defeated the Lor Pelek.

Mace's speed was sufficiently developed after Dantooine; that when he broke into a bunker fill of dozens and dozens of machine gun-wielding Balawai Militiamen, who themselves admitted that they knew Mace would be fast enough to mow down most them before dying. (These men had gun-turrets and mutliple firing apparatuses directly fixed on an exhausted Windu from the front, when he entered the bunker.)

On Haruun Kal, Mace had been exhausted, injured, had low mental-morale and was utterly broken-hearted due to his Padawan's descent into madness.

After developing his speed on Dantooine and Haruun Kal, it is partially this which is what gave him what he needed to topple Sidious in a duel, whereas other less-developed Jedi Masters were destroyed before the Dark Lord.


Yeah I've decided not to take Dave Filoni's comments as absolute canon.

I just don't like the comparison from what Mace did on Dantooine and Dooku getting captured by pirates in the new series,(which people have done in Mace vs Dooku threads in the past) because Mace won't be doing what he did on Dantooine in the new CW series. That's been made clear. And obviously Dooku wouldn't have been captured by a few pirates in the CWMini series.

Also Jedi's have moments of oneness with the Force where they achieve feats they wouldn't/couldn't normally do. So that could explain the Inconsistency between Mace on Geonosis and Mace on Dantooine.

But I'm not sure Mace's speed radically increased during the CW. Mace beat Sidious due to Vapaad and Shatterpoint, not because he himself got a boost in speed during the CW.

Super speed was always an inherent part of Vapaad and not something Extra he just developed after AOTC.

Actually, you have the right idea partially - but you've cut the logic up and diced it around a bit.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah I've decided not to take Dave Filoni's comments as absolute canon.
I just don't like the comparison from what Mace did on Dantooine and Dooku getting captured by pirates in the new series,(which people have done in Mace vs Dooku threads in the past) because Mace won't be doing what he did on Dantooine in the new CW series. That's been made clear. And obviously Dooku wouldn't have been captured by a few pirates in the CWMini series

The CGI Miniseries is Retarded.

It's obvious it's designed mostly for kids and tuned-down intellectually so that they can keep up with it.

I agree about that part - I watched it with a friend when that episode came out, and he about had a fit when Dooku was captured, and afterwards he abruptly stopped watching that series.

(I did too.)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also Jedi's have moments of oneness with the Force where they achieve feats they wouldn't/couldn't normally do. So that could explain the Inconsistency between Mace on Geonosis and Mace on Dantooine.

No, remember and keep in mind that Dantooine came after Geonosis. Just because he can't do something before, doesn't mean he can't do it later when his skill has grown.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But I'm not sure Mace's speed radically increased during the CW.

Probably not radically - and I'm sure it was very likely due to Vapaad, which was stated to have increased speed in a somewhat unique way; this was during the years when Mace was developing it for his eventual confrontation with the hidden Sith lord.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace beat Sidious due to Vapaad and Shatterpoint, not because he himself got a boost in speed during the CW.

The speed was likely an effect of Vapaad, and so yes, he beat Sidious due to Vapaad and the Shatterpoint technique - but also because of the Vapaad-induced speed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Super speed was always an inherent part of Vapaad and not something Extra he just developed after AOTC.

If you're referring to him not having this speed on Geonosis, it was very likely because he had not developed the speed-aspect of Vapaad to fruition at this point - and after Geonosis many of the Vapaad techniques began to manifest and develop assertively over time.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Actually, you have the right idea partially - but you've cut the logic up and diced it around a bit.



The CGI Miniseries is Retarded.

It's obvious it's designed mostly for kids and tuned-down intellectually so that they can keep up with it.

I agree about that part - I watched it with a friend when that episode came out, and he about had a fit when Dooku was captured, and afterwards he abruptly stopped watching that series.

(I did too.)



No, remember and keep in mind that Dantooine came after Geonosis. Just because he can't do something before, doesn't mean he can't do it later when his skill has grown.




Probably not radically - and I'm sure it was very likely due to Vapaad, which was stated to have increased speed in a somewhat unique way; this was during the years when Mace was developing it for his eventual confrontation with the hidden Sith lord.




The speed was likely an effect of Vapaad, and so yes, he beat Sidious due to Vapaad and the Shatterpoint technique - but also because of the Vapaad-induced speed.



If you're referring to him not having this speed on Geonosis, it was very likely because he had not developed the speed-aspect of Vapaad to fruition at this point - and after Geonosis many of the Vapaad techniques began to manifest and develop assertively over time.

I see A LOT of assumptions and speculation here.

By all accounts Vapaad was fully developed long before AOTC. The only major change to Mace's abilities after AOTC was during Shatterpoint when he learned to stop fearing the darkness.

And you seem to be making a lot of excuses for Mace's performance on Geonosis.

It's an Inconsistency due to one reason only. That force powers are portrayed differently in different mediums. That's it.