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Who wins how and why?

There's a shitstorm a brewin

^ That.

But Ion wins.

Kyle eats it.

Ion.

Originally posted by Mindset
Kyle eats it.

Kyle vs Doom?

Originally posted by Diesldude
Kyle vs Doom? Stay on topic or I will be forced to report you.

Ion.

Phoenix smothers Kyle in it's feathers.

Originally posted by Mindset
Stay on topic or I will be forced to report you. C'mon man, honest question. I didn't want to start a thread just to get one man's opinion. LOL

There's already a thread with my opinion in it.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Phoenix smothers Kyle in it's feathers. Stop trying to act like you aren't a DC fanboy. ermm

So the Phoenix entity vs the Ion entity

Or do you want to know which is the bigger power up

Classic phoenix eats Kyle
Craptastic current phoenix loses to Kyle

Originally posted by Mindset
Stop trying to act like you aren't a DC fanboy. ermm

I'm a Phoenix fanboy first. seriosly.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
So the Phoenix entity vs the Ion entity

Or do you want to know which is the bigger power up

Classic phoenix eats Kyle
Craptastic current phoenix loses to Kyle

Pretty much.

Originally posted by Mindset
Stop trying to act like you aren't a DC fanboy. ermm if i said that i'd get reported

Originally posted by psycho gundam
if i said that i'd get reported Do you use smilies?

Psycho never uses smiles. He hates me.

Originally posted by Mindset
Stop trying to act like you aren't a DC fanboy. ermm

Originally posted by Mindset
Do you use smilies? next time i will

hear that, prep-man, "NEXT TIME"

Stop chearleading, Jake.

Make better threads, then.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Make better threads, then.

Why don't you make them, fat ass! sneer

Classic Ion had the ability to be anywhere in the universe simutaneously, that suggests true omnipentence, NO version of phoenix is going to win this fight.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Why don't you make them, fat ass! sneer

I already do.

Originally posted by lawest9
Classic Ion had the ability to be anywhere in the universe simutaneously, that suggests true omnipentence, NO version of phoenix is going to win this fight. Omnipresence.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I already do.

If people would stop overrating DC and actually give reasons than just, "spite", maybe we can get somewhere.

Originally posted by Mindset
Omnipresence. Thank you, but to be omnipresent suggests omnipotence as well.

Originally posted by lawest9
Classic Ion had the ability to be anywhere in the universe simutaneously, that suggests true omnipentence, NO version of phoenix is going to win this fight.

You mean Omnimpotence?

Originally posted by lawest9
Classic Ion had the ability to be anywhere in the universe simutaneously, that suggests true omnipentence, NO version of phoenix is going to win this fight.

I havent actually seen the issue, but someone described it to me in detail.

Less omnipresence and more he multi tasked and had the ability to create representations of himself to perform different tasks, in different places at the same time. Thats not omnipresence and it certainly isnt a good enough reason to place Ion on the Phoenix Forces level.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I havent actually seen the issue, but someone described it to me in detail.

Less omnipresence and more he multi tasked and had the ability to create representations of himself to perform different tasks, in different places at the same time. Thats not omnipresence and it certainly isnt a good enough reason to place Ion on the Phoenix Forces level.

Here here!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I havent actually seen the issue, but someone described it to me in detail.

Less omnipresence and more he multi tasked and had the ability to create representations of himself to perform different tasks, in different places at the same time. Thats not omnipresence and it certainly isnt a good enough reason to place Ion on the Phoenix Forces level. But on the flip side there is nothing to suggest that the phoenix force is above him as well. So to be fair............there's not enough compelling evidence to say one is above the other, but I'll still go with kyle here.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats not omnipresence and it certainly isnt a good enough reason to place Ion on the Phoenix Forces level.

You're right, it places Ion far above the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by CortSether
You're right, it places Ion far above the Phoenix Force. Hahahaha..............thank you.

Originally posted by Golgo13
You mean Omnimpotence? No I mean
OMNIPOTENCE, there is no 2nd M in the word.

Originally posted by lawest9
But on the flip side there is nothing to suggest that the phoenix force is above him as well. So to be fair............there's not enough compelling evidence to say one is above the other, but I'll still go with kyle here.

Of course there is.

What you described, one entity performing different tasks in different places is something the PF has always done. We've seen with Warsong and Endsong and the Blue Echo in the Phoenix Sword that Phoenix representations can manifest and perform independently of each other and act at once:

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4342/phoenixresurrectionreve.th.jpg

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/4342/phoenixresurrectionreve.th.jpg

Ion is just one aspect of the emotional spectrum. You need to be comparing the PF more to the White Light.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Of course there is.

What you described, one entity performing different tasks in different places is something the PF has always done. We've seen with Warsong and Endsong and the Blue Echo in the Phoenix Sword that Phoenix representations can manifest and perform independently of each other and act at once:

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4342/phoenixresurrectionreve.th.jpg

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/4342/phoenixresurrectionreve.th.jpg

Ion is just one aspect of the emotional spectrum. You need to be comparing the PF more to the White Light. I disagree, that could be different entities going under the same name, and if not, all that scan proves is that the PF is at the most on equal levels with Ion and NOT it's superiority.

Originally posted by lawest9
I disagree, that could be different entities going under the same name, and if not, all that scan proves is that the PF is at the most on equal levels with Ion and NOT it's superiority.

But you cant disagree over something thats explicitly shown to be the case. The scenes not open to interpretation. The Phoenix Force divides and does multiples tasks at the same time.

Just like multiple shards of the Phoenix Force have been known to operate at once and empower different hosts.

Also. You still have not shown omnipresence. Youve demonstrated that Ion can multi-task. Send out multiple representations of himself to do different things. Great. Again, Phoenix does that all the time as shown in the scenes ive posted and as you know from recent continuity. Shards of the Phoenix working with Rachel, with the Stepford Cuckoos and manifesting in Hope.

Has the Ion Force ever destroyed a timeline with a casual thought?

Originally posted by Harbinger
^ That.

But Ion wins.

Agreed.

But Ion wins in a stomp.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But you cant disagree over something thats explicitly shown to be the case. The scenes not open to interpretation. The Phoenix Force divides and does multiples tasks at the same time.

Just like multiple shards of the Phoenix Force have been known to operate at once and empower different hosts.

Also. You still have not shown omnipresence. Youve demonstrated that Ion can multi-task. Send out multiple representations of himself to do different things. Great. Again, Phoenix does that all the time as shown in the scenes ive posted and as you know from recent continuity. Shards of the Phoenix working with Rachel, with the Stepford Cuckoos and manifesting in Hope.

Has the Ion Force ever destroyed a timeline with a casual thought? Parallax/ Hal Jordan was on the verge of altering the very universe/ creation before he was stopped, Kyle received a vastly amount more of the Oan energy than hal and re-created the guardians in the process who are beings of at least sky father level if not above. The PF is not more powerful.

Originally posted by lawest9
Classic Ion had the ability to be anywhere in the universe simutaneously, that suggests true omnipentence, NO version of phoenix is going to win this fight.

He also believed, and Spectre confirmed, that he could have altered Hal Jordan's past without any consequences to the time stream.. Pretty much near Worlogog levels of time control.

Originally posted by lawest9
and re-created the guardians in the process who are beings of at least sky father level if not above. The

And transgendered half of them, too.

Originally posted by cdtm
He also believed, and Spectre confirmed, that he could have altered Hal Jordan's past without any consequences to the time stream.. Pretty much near Worlogog levels of time control.

Ion? Phoenix could simply absorb the Ion entity into itself.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Ion? Phoenix could simply absorb the Ion entity into itself.

Not the entity. Kyle, when he called himself Ion.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Ion? Phoenix could simply absorb the Ion entity into itself. That's very doubtful

Originally posted by cdtm
Not the entity. Kyle, when he called himself Ion.

Im pretty sure it was retconned that he had the entity in him.

Originally posted by lawest9
Parallax/ Hal Jordan was on the verge of altering the very universe/ creation before he was stopped, Kyle received a vastly amount more of the Oan energy than hal and re-created the guardians in the process who are beings of at least sky father level if not above. The PF is not more powerful.

Why are we talking about Parallax now?

I'll play along anyway. Parallax as stated in the comic was achieving his feat through time manipulation. He wasnt rewriting matter and energy and changing it to something else, he was reversing time to before Coast City was destroyed and then he was making sure that event never happened resulting in a timeline where Coast City was still intact. Nice feat. Nothing beyond what a Cube Being could do

Phoenix casually amputated and disposed of a timeline with a single thought. Not a big song and dance for many issues gradually making a change. A single thought and it was done. And that was just Jean Grey

Originally posted by cdtm
He also believed, and Spectre confirmed, that he could have altered Hal Jordan's past without any consequences to the time stream.. Pretty much near Worlogog levels of time control.



Something we never saw occur on panel, just an unconfirmed belief so its irrelavant

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Something we never saw occur on panel, just an unconfirmed belief so its irrelavant

Confirmed by Spectre, actually. Not just any opinion, but analysis from a being that was trying to dissuade Kyle from performing the act. Not really the time or place for hyperbole, given the context.

GS's desperation to get ppl to believe in the Phoenix hype is hilarious.

Originally posted by cdtm
Confirmed by Spectre, actually. Not just any opinion, but analysis from a being that was trying to dissuade Kyle from performing the act. Not really the time or place for hyperbole, given the context.

Confirmed or commented on as a possibility?

Regardless Parallaxs feats were down to time manipulation. The comic stated clearly that he was going to achieve his feat through chronal energies and forgive me if im wrong but he never actually did anything because he was stopped right?

Originally posted by CortSether
GS's desperation to get ppl to believe in the Phoenix hype is hilarious.

You have nothing on me, so you troll because you have not the capacity to successfully debate with me directly.

Drown under your bridge

When Kyle can destroy not just a universe (reality at one specific moment in time) but instead a timeline with a thought as Jean can do

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5818/nxm15420.th.jpg

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

then placing them in similar categories will stop becoming ridiculous.

Jean did that.

Shes one of the many hosts the PF empowers across the multiverse.

Empowers to manipulate the atoms of a whole reality in her palm-

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5170/nxm15421.th.jpg

All that energy and matter, the entire universe controlled at an atomic level

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2092/xmenmessiahcomplexmutanns6.th.jpg

Again, just Jean here destroying timelines with a thought and manipulating the entire universe

The PF is on another level

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You have nothing on me, so you troll because you have not the capacity to successfully debate with me directly.

Drown under your bridge

GalacticStorm, I have a riddle for you, a conundrum, if you will.

What's the difference between you and a mallard with a cold?

One's a sick duck...I can't remember how it ends, but your mother's a whore.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why are we talking about Parallax now?

I'll play along anyway. Parallax as stated in the comic was achieving his feat through time manipulation. He wasnt rewriting matter and energy and changing it to something else, he was reversing time to before Coast City was destroyed and then he was making sure that event never happened resulting in a timeline where Coast City was still intact. Nice feat. Nothing beyond what a Cube Being could do

Phoenix casually amputated and disposed of a timeline with a single thought. Not a big song and dance for many issues gradually making a change. A sipngle thought and it was done. And that was just Jean Grey I only used parallax as an example to make a comparative point here concerning Ion, not to insert him into the discussion, Kyle could obviously do anything he have wanted matching the PF, Most dc entities on the average refrain from doing certain feats because most of them have an specific assigned purpose and duty given them by a much higher authority. This generally demonstrates a much higher level of discipline than most marvel entities tend to demonstrate. Altering the timeline with a thought is mere child's play for Ion and most DC higher entities.

Originally posted by lawest9
I only used parallax as an example to make a comparative point here concerning Ion, not to insert him into the discussion, Kyle could obviously do anything he have wanted matching the PF, Most dc entities on the average refrain from doing certain feats because most of them have an specific assigned purpose and duty given them by a much higher authority. This generally demonstrates a much higher level of discipline than most marvel entities tend to demonstrate. Altering the timeline with a thought is mere child's play for Ion and most DC higher entities.

Youve just given me your assessment on DC vs Marvel cosmics. Cool. Not factual, just your opinion.

The multi tasking feat wasnt omnipresence.

Phoenix is all that is, she is in everything

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2044/classicxmen00821.th.jpg

That is omnipresence NOT simply splitting off into a few representations and performing different feats. He doesnt have a presence in all of existence.

Further Phoenix didnt just alter a timeline, any average cosmic could do that.

She cut off the future timeline of the universe and destroyed it WITH A THOUGHT and then manipulated the atoms of the wounded universe to materialize it in the white hot room for healing, she then changed an event in the timeline and due to her having erased the future her event alteration didnt cause a divergent future it merely continued the 616 timeline.

Never before has a being in marvel changed an event and NOT created a divergent timeline.

Unprecedented.

And again what youre not getting is that that was JUST Jean Grey. One of the PFs multiversal hosts.

Destroying timelines was something Parallax's lackey Extant could do
Originally posted by Galan007
Extant created another Entropy rift, that was erasing the 64th Century from existence:
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7913/extant007da1.th.jpg


Flash of that time thought if he ran through the rift at "ultimate speed", it would stop. Flash was erased by the Entropy rift, as was his entire Universe:
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7219/extant008um3.th.jpg

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6903/extant009bo1.th.jpg


Extant's rift destroys another time-line:
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9717/extant010qt4.th.jpg


Parallax kicked his ass when he tried to seize power easily. Parallax also re-created entire universe and was going to make many more untill spectre stopped him. Ion is parallax+oblivion. Honestly this is spite if all phoenix can do is erasing a timeline.

And breaking time, while impressive, is much less so than building it.

Destroying timelines is something that happens by default.. Doing something with it, without breaking it, is the real demonstration of power..

Originally posted by abhilegend
Destroying timelines was something Parallax's lackey Extant could do

Parallax kicked his ass when he tried to seize power easily. Parallax also re-created entire universe and was going to make many more untill spectre stopped him. Ion is parallax+oblivion. Honestly this is spite if all phoenix can do is erasing a timeline. Excellent points. Thanks.

When did Extant try taking power from Parallax?

Zero Hour itself, or a tie in?

Originally posted by cdtm
When did Extant try taking power from Parallax?

Zero Hour itself, or a tie in?
Zero hour. Parallax took him out in one panel and reminded him who is the boss? Honestly, waverider destroyed a whole timeline to destroy monarch. Its no big deal.

As I learned the PF is the Big Bang, it's Marvels equivalent to Imperiex, who is also the Bitg Bang and holds the power of the Big Bang. ZH Paralax was beyond that and recreated the Multiverse, Timelines and everything on a whim, he had to be stopped by the Spectre who failed to do so. The PF never beat or fought Spectres equivalent in Marvel nor would it be able to imho.

And Kyle as Ion was even beyond Parallax... BTW Kyle containd the BigBang even before he became Ion .

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
As I learned the PF is the Big Bang, it's Marvels equivalent to Imperiex, who is also the Bitg Bang and holds the power of the Big Bang. ZH Paralax was beyond that and recreated the Multiverse, Timelines and everything on a whim, he had to be stopped by the Spectre who failed to do so. The PF never beat or fought Spectres equivalent in Marvel nor would it be able to imho.

And Kyle as Ion was even beyond Parallax... BTW Kyle containd the BigBang even before he became Ion .
Phoenix isn't big bang, it was born from that. Yeah, just an Ion amped kyle contained a big bang and he was just tapping the Ion force sub-consciously

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/Supermanv2173pg14.jpg

Unlike phoenix who has just statements, imperiex IS the big bang.

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/th_imperiexuni2.jpg

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
As I learned the PF is the Big Bang, it's Marvels equivalent to Imperiex, who is also the Bitg Bang and holds the power of the Big Bang. ZH Paralax was beyond that and recreated the Multiverse, Timelines and everything on a whim, he had to be stopped by the Spectre who failed to do so. The PF never beat or fought Spectres equivalent in Marvel nor would it be able to imho.

And Kyle as Ion was even beyond Parallax... BTW Kyle containd the BigBang even before he became Ion .
Please , that myth has been disproven in so many threads prior , its not even funny anymore .

Originally posted by abhilegend
Phoenix isn't big bang, it was born from that. Yeah, just an Ion amped kyle contained a big bang and he was just tapping the Ion force sub-consciously

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/Supermanv2173pg14.jpg

Unlike phoenix who has just statements, imperiex IS the big bang.

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/th_imperiexuni2.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Phoenix isn't big bang, it was born from that. Yeah, just an Ion amped kyle contained a big bang and he was just tapping the Ion force sub-consciously

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/Supermanv2173pg14.jpg

Unlike phoenix who has just statements, imperiex IS the big bang.

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/th_imperiexuni2.jpg How does it feel?

Originally posted by Mindset
How does it feel?
Feel what?

To be right for once.

Abhi is always right, hush yo face.

Rand-yman.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Abhi is always right, hush yo face.

Rand-yman. You've just gone full Abhi.

Originally posted by Mindset
You've just gone full Abhi.

I know.

Going full Abhi proves this point:

Abhi is inside you now.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Please , that myth has been disproven in so many threads prior , its not even funny anymore .


Wow, after sifting through several threads,
I see I missed some goodies.

I love this place.
I don't have the leisure anymore to enjoy it as much as I used to,
but I have to participate as much as I can when I find the time.

After today, I probably won't touch down again for some months.

^
And Phoenix fever will run rampant in your absence.

^Don't worry , Puff the dragon(w/ the blessing of our Lord Rand) will forever purge the Phoenix from the face of this earth .

^^

Originally posted by Sundipped
^
And Phoenix fever will run rampant in your absence.

lol@saying the phoenix force is the big bang...delusions

Originally posted by abhilegend
Destroying timelines was something Parallax's lackey Extant could do

Parallax kicked his ass when he tried to seize power easily. Parallax also re-created entire universe and was going to make many more untill spectre stopped him. Ion is parallax+oblivion. Honestly this is spite if all phoenix can do is erasing a timeline.

Again youre not getting it.

Jean Grey with a thought destroyed an entire timeline with a thought and it happened just like that. Ion has never done this, Parallax has never done this, demonstrate another character doing this?

Its not just a case of doing the act. Its how it was done. The comparative ease and speed.

No big song and dance that went on for most of an issue. A single panel, a thought, it was done.

Different power level.

And another point that doesnt seem to be sinking in is that that was just Jean Grey one of the many hosts the PF empowers across the multiverse.

This threads about the Phoenix Force. Ion gets blown away.

Originally posted by cdtm
And breaking time, while impressive, is much less so than building it.

Destroying timelines is something that happens by default.. Doing something with it, without breaking it, is the real demonstration of power..

Not simply breaking time, amputating it like its a physical object thereby warping space/time laws and then disposing of it all within a single panel and with a thought.

Furthermore theres a difference between altering reality through time manipulation and by having the power to directly manipulate the atomic structure of reality to shape it as you desire.

The former is just taking things back to different points in time to when reality more closely matches what you want.

The latter is having power over energy and matter to actually reshape the universe directly, NOT going back or forward to different states in time.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
As I learned the PF is the Big Bang, it's Marvels equivalent to Imperiex, who is also the Bitg Bang and holds the power of the Big Bang. ZH Paralax was beyond that and recreated the Multiverse, Timelines and everything on a whim, he had to be stopped by the Spectre who failed to do so. The PF never beat or fought Spectres equivalent in Marvel nor would it be able to imho.

And Kyle as Ion was even beyond Parallax... BTW Kyle containd the BigBang even before he became Ion .

All ABC logic, he beat him, who beat this person, who beat that person so hes stronger. Doesnt work like that

The Big Bang is a manifestation of the PF at the universal level, however as stated on panel and in its handbook entry, the PF is a multiversal entity.

That is why it can empower hosts to amputate timelines with a thought and manipulate the atoms of the entire universe in her palm. If all the PF was was the Big Bang then it wouldnt be able to empower one of its many hosts to do such a feat because by manipulating all the energy and matter of reality in her palm, Jean was channeling more energy than contained within said reality.

Once again-

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5170/nxm15421.th.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2092/xmenmessiahcomplexmutanns6.th.jpg

Total control of matter, manipulating the universe down to its component matter

Originally posted by abhilegend
Phoenix isn't big bang, it was born from that. Yeah, just an Ion amped kyle contained a big bang and he was just tapping the Ion force sub-consciously

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/Supermanv2173pg14.jpg

Unlike phoenix who has just statements, imperiex IS the big bang.

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/th_imperiexuni2.jpg

Based on?

Reed Richards the top scientific mind on Marvel Earth states that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang, the very energies of creation

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8905/fantasticfour52212.th.jpg

Tony Stark in the current ongoing Avengers Vs X-men series states that he is using particle accelerators to simulate the Big Bang in an effort to understand how to kill the Phoenix Force who he equates to "universal expansion"

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/363/avxzone016.th.jpg

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/9589/avxzone017.th.jpg

You have the Phoenix Force saying it is all that is and that it is in everything that live and that stars (the largest concentrations of Big Bang matter in the universe) derive from her she is their mother.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2044/classicxmen00821.th.jpg

If the PF was just a being born in the Big Bang event that wouldnt be the case.

Further confirmation is when the Phoenix Force is being torn from its physical anchor reality, the stars in existence start to fade and it is stated that with no Phoenix Force there would be a void. A void is what exists before the Big Bang fills it with energy and matter

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2769/excalibur02520.th.jpg

Then to top it off you have on panel depictions of the Big Bang gaining sentience as the Phoenix Force awakens to reality-

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3056/excalibur052p10.th.jpg

On panel statements explicitly stating Phoenix is the Big Bang, on panel depictions of it being the sentience of the Big Bang, on panel demonstrations of reality being sustained by it.

You can not credibly argue that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang against explicit evidence.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Based on?

Reed Richards the top scientific mind on Marvel Earth states that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang, the very energies of creation

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8905/fantasticfour52212.th.jpg

Tony Stark in the current ongoing Avengers Vs X-men series states that he is using particle accelerators to simulate the Big Bang in an effort to understand how to kill the Phoenix Force who he equates to "universal expansion"

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/363/avxzone016.th.jpg

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/9589/avxzone017.th.jpg

You have the Phoenix Force saying it is all that is and that it is in everything that live and that stars (the largest concentrations of Big Bang matter in the universe) derive from her she is their mother.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2044/classicxmen00821.th.jpg

If the PF was just a being born in the Big Bang event that wouldnt be the case.

Further confirmation is when the Phoenix Force is being torn from its physical anchor reality, the stars in existence start to fade and it is stated that with no Phoenix Force there would be a void. A void is what exists before the Big Bang fills it with energy and matter

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2769/excalibur02520.th.jpg

Then to top it off you have on panel depictions of the Big Bang gaining sentience as the Phoenix Force awakens to reality-

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3056/excalibur052p10.th.jpg

On panel statements explicitly stating Phoenix is the Big Bang, on panel depictions of it being the sentience of the Big Bang, on panel demonstrations of reality being sustained by it.

You can not credibly argue that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang against explicit evidence.
Just stop. These myths have been debunked many times. I've no time to waste on this. Anyway Ion wins.

Also Reed hasn't been the top earth based scientist for years hes just a schmuk now

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Again youre not getting it.

Jean Grey with a thought destroyed an entire timeline with a thought and it happened just like that. Ion has never done this, Parallax has never done this, demonstrate another character doing this?

Its not just a case of doing the act. Its how it was done. The comparative ease and speed.

No big song and dance that went on for most of an issue. A single panel, a thought, it was done.

Different power level.

And another point that doesnt seem to be sinking in is that that was just Jean Grey one of the many hosts the PF empowers across the multiverse.

This threads about the Phoenix Force. Ion gets blown away.
That was extant, someone powered by parallax destroying timelines in one panel. Jean grey IS phoenix as Death described and WHR showed up. Other hosts gets killed by Xorn. Like I said if its the best phoenix can do then this is a spite thread. Ion stomps phoenix.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That was extant, someone powered by parallax destroying timelines in one panel. Jean grey IS phoenix as Death described and WHR showed up. Other hosts gets killed by Xorn. Like I said if its the best phoenix can do then this is a spite thread. Ion stomps phoenix.
It was Jean who got killed by Xorn(which subsequently shattered the Force into billions of pieces) .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
It was Jean who got killed by Xorn(which subsequently shattered the Force into billions of pieces) .
Yeah, I forgot about that. A shiar laser did it too. Not much of a big bang, is it?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, I forgot about that. A shiar laser did it too. Not much of a big bang, is it?
It never was the Big Bang to begin with . That debate has been resolved countless times in countless threads prior . It simply isn't worth discussing anymore .

^^^Originally posted by abhilegend
Just stop. These myths have been debunked many times. I've no time to waste on this. Anyway Ion wins.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All ABC logic, he beat him, who beat this person, who beat that person so hes stronger. Doesnt work like that

The Big Bang is a manifestation of the PF at the universal level, however as stated on panel and in its handbook entry, the PF is a multiversal entity.

That is why it can empower hosts to amputate timelines with a thought and manipulate the atoms of the entire universe in her palm. If all the PF was was the Big Bang then it wouldnt be able to empower one of its many hosts to do such a feat because by manipulating all the energy and matter of reality in her palm, Jean was channeling more energy than contained within said reality.

Once again-

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5170/nxm15421.th.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2092/xmenmessiahcomplexmutanns6.th.jpg

Total control of matter, manipulating the universe down to its component matter

Translation: HEEEERP DEERP

Ion

Originally posted by abhilegend
Just stop. These myths have been debunked many times. I've no time to waste on this. Anyway Ion wins.

Debunked by who?

You cannot debunk an explicit on panel statement or depiction.

If the statements were ambiguous, if they were open to interpretation then you'd have a point.

You debunk them. Why dont you analyse each scan and tell us all how each one does not say exactly what it does

This should be interesting

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
It never was the Big Bang to begin with . That debate has been resolved countless times in countless threads prior . It simply isn't worth discussing anymore .

Nope.

An opinion that is more aligned to your own was reposted again and again and again regardless of what proof i put forward.

That is not debunking anything.

That is not proving me wrong.

To do so you would have to analyze the scenes posted and state exactly how they are not giving evidence or making explicit statements that the PF is the Big Bang.
Thats never been done.

Instead scans of the PFs firebird avatar or low showings by human hosts are posted along with irrelevant comments pertaining to how such showings dont reflect a being who's supposed to be the Big Bang


A scan by a reputable character saying that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang is not ambiguous and is not open to interpretation.

A scan showing stars fading from existence as its tie to its host is being disrupted is a clear demonstration that the stars of the universe derive from the Phoenix Force. (Stars being the biggest concentrations of Big Bang matter in reality)

In the same occurrence a statement from Death and watcher stating clearly that with no Phoenix Force there is a void (what exists before the Big Bang) is a clear depiction of the Phoenix Force being the energies of creation.

You have nothing.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That was extant, someone powered by parallax destroying timelines in one panel. Jean grey IS phoenix as Death described and WHR showed up. Other hosts gets killed by Xorn. Like I said if its the best phoenix can do then this is a spite thread. Ion stomps phoenix.

Again. Ignoring the clear point i made despite the extensive breakdown i provided to allow you to comprehend.

Its not just a case of Parallax or Extant being able to destroy timelines as well, its the comparative ease and speed in which they do it that demonstrates their comparative power.

Jean does it casually with a thought in a single panel as if its nothing. Standard fare.

The others you mention made a big song and dance about it and to execute the feat it took far longer, pages, if not the most part of an issue

A clear gulf in power.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


Tony Stark in the current ongoing Avengers Vs X-men series states that he is using particle accelerators to simulate the Big Bang in an effort to understand how to kill the Phoenix Force who he equates to "universal expansion"

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/363/avxzone016.th.jpg

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/9589/avxzone017.th.jpg

Good catch.
That's concrete evidence that the PF is an entity born from the manifestation (and is the essence) of the big bang energies which produced the abstracts.

Tony was right on point, being that he was able to affect it somewhat by separating it into 5 components although that wasn't the desired result.

Even though we've still yet to see it happen on panel, I've always been of the opinion that the PF is a force of creation(a big bang, if you will.) However, the PF certainly isn't the only force in Marvel that manifests big bangs. Other characters such as: Entropy, the Alien Entity, the Beyonder and Sise-Neg(off the top of my head) have generated big bangs/universes on panel-- and several other characters have been stated to have power of that magnitude as well.

As far as I'm concerned, the PF is just one of several characters with that power/potential. She certainly isn't special in that regard.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Jean does it casually with a thought in a single panel as if its nothing. Standard fare. .

The others you mention made a big song and dance about it and to execute the feat it took far longer, pages, if not the most part of an issue

Scans of Phoenix actually destroying the timeline?

I saw a scan of her mentioning destroying it after the fact, but do we actually see her do it?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Again. Ignoring the clear point i made despite the extensive breakdown i provided to allow you to comprehend.

Its not just a case of Parallax or Extant being able to destroy timelines as well, its the comparative ease and speed in which they do it that demonstrates their comparative power.

Jean does it casually with a thought in a single panel as if its nothing. Standard fare.

The others you mention made a big song and dance about it and to execute the feat it took far longer, pages, if not the most part of an issue

A clear gulf in power.
Who gives a shit how casually or not casually phoenix did it? BTW extant was doing that casually too. Parallax destroyed entire main reality and re-created it casually. An ION amped kyle held off a big bang casually. Ion stomps phoenix casually.

Here's the actual pocket universe creation feat:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/actioncomics591-09.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/actioncomics591-08.jpg


With only seconds to act, he takes a sliver of time, that contains an entire universe. Than he picks out two worlds, Earth and Krypton, and alters those worlds so that his "Pocket Universe Superboy" comes into existence.


This isn't "merely" creating a pocket universe.. It's high level reality manipulation.

And he did it easily.

And yet, Parallax easily defeated TT.

Classic Ion>> Classic Parallax>> PF

I got the scan order mixed up, thanks to Photobuckets backwards way of uploading scans. Read it from bottom to top. v_V;

Originally posted by cdtm
Here's the actual pocket universe creation feat:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/actioncomics591-09.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/actioncomics591-08.jpg


With only seconds to act, he takes a sliver of time, that contains an entire universe. Than he picks out two worlds, Earth and Krypton, and alters those worlds so that his "Pocket Universe Superboy" comes into existence.


This isn't "merely" creating a pocket universe.. It's high level reality manipulation.

And he did it easily.

And yet, Parallax easily defeated TT. Don't forget that the pocket universe had alternate realities too like phantom zone. It wasn't just a single reality.

Originally posted by cdtm
I got the scan order mixed up, thanks to Photobuckets backwards way of uploading scans. Read it from bottom to top. v_V; Even though TT didn't create the pocket universe (which was a full blown/actual universe, btw) from scratch, he did 'amputate' a fraction of time from the mainstream universe, alter it a bit, then isolate it from the prime continuum. Hugely impressive... Even moreso than Phoenix's top feat(IF you take GS's interpretation at face value.) This is important because we know that he who wields the full power of the Central Battery(Parallax/Ion) >>>> Time Trapper =/> Phoenix.

Vis-a-vis, Ion wins.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Don't forget that the pocket universe had alternate realities too like phantom zone. It wasn't just a single reality. Of course TT's pocket universe would contain the PZ. It is literally a piece of the mainstream universe that TT removed/amputated-- it should theoretically contained every universe/dimension typically linked with the prime universe.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Just stop. These myths have been debunked many times. I've no time to waste on this. Anyway Ion wins.

LOL, this is gold.

The Phoenix Force guided Galan to a cosmic egg in order for him to become Galactus, just before destroying that universe and creating a new one. There's also the fact that its users can casually repair entire universes while holding them in the palm of their hands. Phoenix Force will win this.

Originally posted by Galan007
Even though TT didn't create the pocket universe (which was a full blown/actual universe, btw) from scratch, he did 'amputate' a fraction of time from the mainstream universe, alter it a bit, then isolate it from the prime continuum. Hugely impressive... Even moreso than Phoenix's top feat(IF you take GS's interpretation at face value.) This is important because we know that he who wields the full power of the Central Battery(Parallax/Ion) >>>> Time Trapper =/> Phoenix.

Vis-a-vis, Ion wins.

Of course TT's pocket universe would contain the PZ. It is literally a piece of the mainstream universe that TT removed/amputated-- it should theoretically contained every universe/dimension typically linked with the prime universe.

You convinced me.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
LOL, this is gold.

The Phoenix Force guided Galan to a cosmic egg in order for him to become Galactus, just before destroying that universe and creating a new one. There's also the fact that its users can casually repair entire universes while holding them in the palm of their hands. Phoenix Force will win this.
for starters, the Universes previous sentience was reason why Galan became Galactus

Secondly The phoenix force didn't destroy that universe, it's own destruction was already set in motion once the M'kraan crystal was cracked by the the Dweller in Darkness, which resulted in the next big bang and the creation of the next universe

far as the HTC feat, that's up for debate, far as i'm concerned it appeared to be nothing more than a mere visualization, albeit some would argue otherwise

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
for starters, the Universes previous sentience was reason why Galan became Galactus

Secondly The phoenix force didn't destroy that universe, it's own destruction was already set in motion once the M'kraan crystal was cracked by the the Dweller in Darkness, which resulted in the next big bang and the creation of the next universe

far as the HTC feat, that's up for debate, far as i'm concerned it appeared to be nothing more than a mere visualization, albeit some would argue otherwise
The PF had no connection to the birth of Galactus, mrmaster and others have debunked this many times with panel in its proper context,not splice to prove their point.

Originally posted by CortSether
GalacticStorm, I have a riddle for you, a conundrum, if you will.

What's the difference between you and a mallard with a cold?

One's a sick duck...I can't remember how it ends, but your mother's a whore.

What an idiot.

Anyways, PF wins.

Originally posted by the Darkone
The PF had no connection to the birth of Galactus, mrmaster and others have debunked this many times with panel in its proper context,not splice to prove their point.
pretty much...

Originally posted by Eon Blue
What an idiot.

Anyways, PF wins.

Sean Connery >>>>>>>>>>>>> You.

Anyways, PF loses.

lol wait Darkone, where you agreeing with me? or disagreeing? because we pretty much said the same thing..

Originally posted by TheTyrant

The Phoenix Force guided Galan to a cosmic egg in order for him to become Galactus,
just before destroying that universe and creating a new one.
This never happened in Marvel Comics.

The PF had absolutely nothing to do with Galan's protection
and/or transformation into Galactus.

Likewise, Phoenix didn't destroy the previous universe either or created the new one.
Originally posted by TheTyrant

There's also the fact that its users can casually repair entire universes
while holding them in the palm of their hands.
That feat's been flip flopped, and it's not your fault.

The selective scans and personal typed input included in the posts
into what's happening can confuse most and frankly fool many.

I had a chance to drop by, so let me end this one and for all ... again. lol


The greater comedy is that she didn't even hold an actual universe,
it was just a visualization of a "badly wounded orphan universe" (Reality 15104)
which one of the countless possible futures of 616.

The whole scenery is filled with Morrison abstract symbolism.

I once too thought she had an actual reality in her hands (15104)

I now know that isn't the case.

Yea, misinterpretation has her "casually amputating a Timeline from the Multiverse"
or "casually manifesting the component parts of Eternity/Infinity reality 616"

==========================


As for Jean supposedly "casually amputating a Timeline from the Multiverse" ...


==========================


Actually:

Jean extracted Sublime's atoms from the "Here Comes Tomorrow" universe (reality 15104)
and shifted herself into the White Hot Room:

(excerpt from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe - "Here Comes Tomorrow" bio)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935467_PF.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------


on panel proof:


----------------------------------------------------------------

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935541_PF1.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935542_PF2.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935543_PF4.jpg

As we can clearly see:

Jean extracts Sublime,
and then shifts into the WHR
this causes the amputation/disinfection of Reality 15104's future because Sublime's "essence" (atoms) are gone from said reality.

As Jean literally stated right there On Panel, as the Handbook literally corroborates.


NOTE:

When Jean says, this is "a coordinate disinfection. My friends were keeping you busy."

It clearly indicates this task (removing Sublime) was NOT easy for her,
besides that it took her 6 pages of Prep, while her friends all died:








----------------------------------------------------------------


So, it's quite evident, that removing Sublime's atoms from Reality was not easy.

Anyway,
Jean hands over Sublime (symbolically representing the present crisis in 15104)
to the PF consciousness.

The PF consciousness explains that while reality 15104 is still damaged,
it can be healed.

The PF consciousness takes Sublime somewhere, a pink Crystal is displayed, (Mkraan?)
and it's anyone's guess what the hell is going on in there.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11935602_PF5.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11935603_PF6.jpg

Jean is THEN told to "heal wound ... make better future .. grow quick"

Ok. Fine.

But what does that mean? What's she's supposed to do to
heal this damaged reality (15104 - possible 616 future)
in order for it to become better future?
(meaning, without Sublime ever manifesting in this universe 150 years in the Future)

As we can see, unto this point,
Jean hasn't done anything except for "extracting Sublime's essence (atoms) and shifting into the WHR"

We know it took her 6 Pages of prep,
and even her friends were died in the process to distract Sublime.

Jean literally tells Sublime "this is a coordinated disinfection"

Jean ends up in the WHR with Sublime in her hands and states:
"Intelligent bacterial colony gone rogue (Sublime)"I had to amputate the whole future"

So:

For White Phoenix of the Crown (reality 15104 Jean Grey)
Extracting Sublime's atoms is a difficult task (6 pages of prep)
and extracting Sublime's atoms and removing them from Reality = amputation/disinfection of said reality.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935746_PF7.jpg

"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds ...
not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown"

swank

----------------------------------------------------------------


The visualization of Reality 15104 (possible 616 future) which appears in her hands,
comes afterwards.

So obviously Jean can't be attributing her comment to a feat she hasn't performed yet:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11935778_PF8.jpg

The ONLY feat she's perform up to this point is still, extracting Sublime's atoms.

Heck, she doesn't even know what the hell is in her hands,
or how it's even materializing in her hands,
yet in pure fabricated fashion she's supposedly manifesting 616 or even 15104 atomically?

What?

To change Scott's mind?

|:

..................................................................................................

Anyway!

..................................................................................................


And what does Jean do?

What's the ONLY other feat Jean performed after the visualization of
the "badly wounded orphan Universe" appeared in her hands?




hm


What did she do when she said, "Live Scott?"

Jean touched Scott's Past-Self from withIN the WHR,
changed Scott's mind about his life, Emma & the X-Men,
and then Scott's decision Alters Reality 15104.

..................................................................................................


According to Grant Morrison's Editors of the arc:

(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935799_PF20.jpg

..................................................................................................


On Panel verification:


In 616, Scott walks away from Emma & the X-Men: (HCT - Reality 15104 is created)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11935802_PF21.jpg

..................................................................................................


Jean reaches back in time (150 years) to 616,
Jean changes Scott's mind so that Reality 15104 will not be created:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935806_PF27.jpg

..................................................................................................


Scott stays with Emma & the X-Men:


http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11935803_PF25.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11935804_PF26.jpg

..................................................................................................


Notice the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio literally states ...

... IT WAS Scott's decision that Altered Reality 15104 ...

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11935807_PF22.jpg

"Letting go of Cyclops and willing him to live ...

In the modern era of Earth-616 ...

Cyclops took up the responsibility of running the X Institute ...

unknowingly ensuring that at least One apocalyptic Future ...

would Not come to fruition" ...


.................................................................................


And cats got her manipulating the atoms of 616 ...

What?

To change Scott's mind? ... I disagree.


Grant Morrison Editor's themselves told us what happened EXACTLY!!!!

.................................................................................


Again ... According to the Editors of the story:



"It was Scott's decision to walk away from Emma
that set the apocalyptic events of 'Here Comes Tomorrow' in motion
(Scott inadvertantly Created Reality 15104 withy a decision)

and Jean made sure that Future would never take place"

HOW WILL Jean Do This?

(what I've always said)

"By making him stay with Emma instead" ....

.................................................................


Jean didn't "casually" or "with a thought" do anything to reality 15014 or 616.

Jean (after 6 pages of prep) while Sublime was distracted killing her friends,
was finally able to extract his atoms from Reality.

It was difficult for her, obviously, this is WHY she said:

"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds ...
not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown"

Anyway, this in-turn dis-infected/amputated the Future that Sublime represented.
(depicted via symbolism by Morrison, because we know Sublime
isn't the embodiment/manifestation of a Universe/Future, when Jean asks holding Sublime, "Is this the Future?"

So anyway,
finally, Reality 15104 is still damaged, to fix this she goes back in time (from the WHR)
and changes Scott's mind about leaving the X-Men
and staying with Emma 150 years ago. (HCT takes place 150 years in an alternate possible future)

That's it. Since Scott never left the X-men 150 years ago,
HCT was never created, and thus, it's all good.

thankyou

I wish I had time to address the rest, but this will have to do.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Then to top it off you have on panel depictions of the Big Bang
gaining sentience as the Phoenix Force awakens to reality-

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3056/excalibur052p10.th.jpg
No where in the Excalibur scan does it state Phoenix is the Big Bang turned sentient.

I don't wanna accuse anyone of foul play,,
but how many more times are ya gonna claim this?


The bio states, Phoenix was "re-born from the Fires of the Big Bang"

On Panel, in THAT scan ... that's exactly what's depicted:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/13043351_Jean.jpg

"This is how I came into being" (exactly, by being born in the Big Bang, like all else)



The Phoenix Force's own official bio states:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674124_PF.jpg

"Reborn from the fires of the Big Bang" ...


----------------------------------------------

Yes, yes, so was Galactus, who never really died like Phoenix,
and everything else in the Marvel Universe was created from the same fires,
big deal,
and the Alien Entity created and held the "Spark" that set all that off in his hand,
and proceeded to re-created all of it.

----------------------------------------------


We also know the PF was re-born,
so it was dead when the previous universe collapsed.

In fact, via most updated Canon,
the Phoenix Force came at some point after Space-Time (Eternity/Infinity)

It always did before this as well, the handbook clarifies this, but now it's explicit.

This is from the last issues of Avengers vs X-Men:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11936033_PP.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

You can not credibly argue that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang against explicit evidence.

The real Big Bang, (on panel) occurring!

The real "Spark" that ignites creation (on panel) occurring!

The real embodiment of the Big Bang (on panel) occurring!


http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674167_1.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674168_2.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674169_3.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674170_4.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674171_5.jpg

......................................................................................


The Big Bang in the flesh (on panel actually depicted)

... not talk, talk, talk, which = to hyperbole.

......................................................................................


Waiting to see the PF being illustrated as the Big Bang.

... zzzzz

===========================================


Don't believe the Phoenix hype yall!


Planetary EMP,
which evidently is enough to shatter the almighty PF!

......................................................................................

Xorn, killing Jean Grey ... and exploding the actual Phoenix Force itself!

......................................................................................


On Panel:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534712_jean_dies1.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534714_jean_dies2.jpg

......................................................................................


Beast remembers:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2120694_jeandiesuj7.jpg

......................................................................................


Bio:

......................................................................................


(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2005)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/543034_hct2005.jpg

"Jean Grey was Killed by an Electromagnetic Pulse,

this shattered the Force into Billions of PIECES"

......................................................................................


(from WC Phoenix - Jean Grey's official 2008 bio)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/537120_jean.jpg

"Jean opposed faux Magneto but was killed by a lethal EMP
that shattered the Phoenix Force into Billions of pieces"

......................................................................................


This incident involving Xorn & the Phoenix Force
was actually recalled by the embodiment of the Phoenix Force itself in "Endsong"

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/4225596_pfbillioncl9.jpg

"I thought I was Dead, in a Billion Billion pieces"


===========================================

===========================================



Heck, the Shiar has made the almighty Phoenix Force it's ***** as well:


Actually they (Shiar) not only forced the PF's resurrection:


But they also shattered the PF itself into pieces partially due to the "Event Horizon"


So canonically, the PF has been shattered TWICE!

1. Into Billions of pieces by an EMP at the hands of Xorn.

2. By a Shiar device as well.

......................................................................................


On Panel proof:


Here's the PF again, being shattered, this time by the Shiar:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1807411_pf2rm9.jpg




In fact, Jean Grey was STILL DEAD, since Xorn's EMP!

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1807412_pf4li2.jpg





Here's the Shiar at the end of the issue,
explaining the "Eleka'an Event Horizon" they used on the PF.
The PF survived by escaping at the last moment,
but it was still injured, dying, meh, literally shattered AGAIN!

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1807413_pf5oq4.jpg

......................................................................................


Bio confirmation of said on panel proof:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1807414_pf8mb4.jpg

"The Force was later ripped back to reality by a Shiar device
that forcibly reconstituted it. Injured, the Force fell ....
searched for Jean and, finding her DEAD, resurrected her ..."

===========================================


The PF was manhandled, stomped and nearly killed yet again,
by some alien Ship:


===========================================

......................................................................................


While the Phoenix Force is in it's purest form (no host)

The Ship, rips a hole in Space & Time in front of the Phoenix Force while in 616:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11817121_AS1.jpg

"Out of one marvelous Universe and into another"

......................................................................................


Then, the Ship attacks the actual Phoenix Force,
the SHIP wants to drain the energy of the Force:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11817126_AS2.jpg

"Impaled, Spitted, the Phoenix writhes as it's life is sucked out"

It has never known PAIN of this magnitude, it SCREAMS"

......................................................................................


http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11817129_AS3.jpg

"It's willfully torturing the Phoenix ..... am I imagining things,
or is it's fire going out, the colors are fading, like it's dying ...

... Truly,
the Phoenix is battling for it's life against the sear of Light that is stripping it's power away"

......................................................................................


The Phoenix manages to break free for a moment (though near death)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11817132_AS4.jpg

"Wounded the Phoenix falls, to survive, to mend, to heal, it must find a Host"

......................................................................................


The SHIP allows the Phoenix to escape for now,

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/11817134_AS5.jpg

"to locate it's pilot program before draining entirely"

......................................................................................


This is all 100% canon!

===========================================


(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook)

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11817359_AS00.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11817360_AS000.jpg

"Impaled on a Lance of energy, Wounded, the Force sought a host to protect it as it Healed"

===========================


Heck ... even a few heroes are enough to handle the Force itself!


===========================


A Few members of the X-Men and Ultra Force (six in all)
are sent to battle the actual Phoenix Force (host-less) ... this is the real deal.

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547141_P1.jpg

.................................


"The assembled Heroes are tired & battered,
the Phoenix (no host) is reborn and fresh"

And they're still holding their own!

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547142_P2.jpg

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547143_P3.jpg


The Six heroes beat (physically) the Phoenix Force (no host) into and through the Portal:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547144_P4.jpg


The Phoenix Force ends up displaced by Four Billion Years:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1547145_P5.jpg

==================================


(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2005)

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2122019_Ulti.jpg

"the Heroes were able to drive the FORCE into another portal,
and it emerged Four Billion years in the Past"

---------------------------------------------------------------


Confirmed Again in the 2007 Handbook Bios:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2122020_Ulti1.jpg http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2122021_Ulti2.jpg

So if those heroes are able to beat the Phoenix....does Ion win then?

Aquaman can beat Phoenix. Ion stomps.

Meh what inconsistent bs. That group of heroes were beaten and battered yet the overpowered they PF but the Avengers pretty much got stomped in 3 panels fail

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
for starters, the Universes previous sentience was reason why Galan became Galactus

Secondly The phoenix force didn't destroy that universe, it's own destruction was already set in motion once the M'kraan crystal was cracked by the the Dweller in Darkness, which resulted in the next big bang and the creation of the next universe

far as the HTC feat, that's up for debate, far as i'm concerned it appeared to be nothing more than a mere visualization, albeit some would argue otherwise

I was wrong about it destroying that universe, but everything else I was right about.

Here is Richards saying that Galactus was transformed by the Phoenix entity:

http://imageshack.us/f/141/fantasticfour52212.jpg/

Birth of Galactus according to a Nova Corps file:

http://imageshack.us/f/25/novacorpsfilespage16.jpg/

"... Phoenix Force saved the dying universe's inhabitants from eternal damnation, while Eternity, the sentience, guided Galan into the Cosmic Egg as the universe collapsed in the Big Crunch."

This is supported by another comic which depicted the birth of Galactus, where the Phoenix Force was shown to temporarily hold off the destruction of the older universe while Galan was guided by Eternity towards the Cosmic Egg. I'll post them if I remember the issue or find the scans.

Edit: found them, here they are:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/142/68406393.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/142/69384702.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/26/88143606.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/25/42532854.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/514/40874068.jpg/

Originally posted by Mr Master
I wish I had time to address the rest, but this will have to do.


No where in the Excalibur scan does it state Phoenix is the Big Bang turned sentient.

I don't wanna accuse anyone of foul play,,
but how many more times are ya gonna claim this?


The bio states, Phoenix was "re-born from the Fires of the Big Bang"

On Panel, in THAT scan ... that's exactly what's depicted:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/13043351_Jean.jpg

"This is how I came into being" (exactly, by being born in the Big Bang, like all else)



The Phoenix Force's own official bio states:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674124_PF.jpg

"Reborn from the fires of the Big Bang" ...


----------------------------------------------

Yes, yes, so was Galactus, who never really died like Phoenix,
and everything else in the Marvel Universe was created from the same fires,
big deal,
and the Alien Entity created and held the "Spark" that set all that off in his hand,
and proceeded to re-created all of it.

----------------------------------------------


We also know the PF was re-born,
so it was dead when the previous universe collapsed.

In fact, via most updated Canon,
the Phoenix Force came at some point after Space-Time (Eternity/Infinity)

It always did before this as well, the handbook clarifies this, but now it's explicit.

This is from the last issues of Avengers vs X-Men:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11936033_PP.jpg


This what I mean debunked

Originally posted by TheTyrant

I was wrong about it destroying that universe,
but everything else I was right about.

Here is Richards saying that Galactus was transformed by the Phoenix entity:

http://imageshack.us/f/141/fantasticfour52212.jpg/
That's false.

On Panel, and in Galactus' bio ... the previous "Eternity" (Infinity Being)
transformed Galan into Galactus.

Also, as for that writer erronously making Reed talk out of his ass:

I know Reed nowadays knows:

the PF is not the Big Bang ... has nothing to do with the Big Bang,
doesn't power the Big Bang, doesn't spark the Big Bang,
in fact, what powers the PF is the psyche of living beings,
so I guess,
living beings are the ones that actually power the Big Bang according to yall.

Yea, Reed knows!

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13072028_3.jpg

See .. this time, he was actually there, unlike that ignorant statement he made.

Grant it, he did seem uncertain about what he was saying in that scan he talks out of his ass: ... "or whathaveyou"


Originally posted by TheTyrant

Birth of Galactus according to a Nova Corps file:

http://imageshack.us/f/25/novacorpsfilespage16.jpg/

"... Phoenix Force saved the dying universe's inhabitants from
eternal damnation, while Eternity, the sentience, guided Galan into
the Cosmic Egg as the universe collapsed in the Big Crunch."

This is supported by another comic which depicted the birth of Galactus, where the
Phoenix Force was shown to temporarily hold off the destruction of the older
universe while Galan was guided by Eternity towards the Cosmic Egg. I'll post them
if I remember the issue or find the scans.

Edit: found them, here they are:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/142/68406393.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/142/69384702.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/26/88143606.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/25/42532854.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/514/40874068.jpg/
My, my, is this still being mis-interpreted? I thought it was cleared up a long time ago.

Anyway ...

So,
yall are confused cause the bio doesn't elaborate enough on what it is that Phoenix did.

Actually it throws off the reader at:

"Phoenix Force saved the dying universe's inhabitants from eternal damnation"

I mean,
it has this gentleman thinking Phoenix "temporarily held off the destruction of the previous universe" ...

Although nothing of the sort even via allusion is stated and/or depicted artistically.


Anyway ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


That issue is Adventures of the X-Men #12.

The story takes place in an Alternate Reality within the Multiverse:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13072031_AX1.jpg

"Parallel Worlds where reality diverges from OURS
& pursues an Alternate path. This is one such Universe."


So the previous Universe is/was actually a universe that diverged from 616.

*** Yea, I know, but there's more comedy coming.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


1) So, what is it that Phoenix did .. in truth?

I'll tell ya and show ya in a bit.

2) Did she stop or stall this alternate universe's destruction?

Absolutely not, even in the slightest.

3) Did she have anything at all to do with Galan being protected or saved from the destruction?

Nothing. Galactus' origin has been depicted 6 times on panel artistically,
and the Phoenix Force has NEVER had anything to do with it, even indirectly,
heck, the PF is not even mention, let-alone illustrated.


4) Then ... what did she do?

She gave the inhabitants of that Alternate Reality a pep talk if you will
before their imminent annihilation, which she tried to stop (with the help of all the X-Men)
and couldn't.
The Mkraan blew up in their faces so Phoenix and the rest of that Alternate Reality was destroyed.
Then, Galan's experience on Taa, and how he tried to escape and was then
protected and saved by the sentience of the Universe and nothing more,
is apparently depicted illustrated in this Alternate version akin to the original.









-------------------------------------------------------------------


That aside, make no mistake,
it was always only a SINGLE Universe that was targeted by the Dweller of Darkness,
same single Universe that was affected by the Mkrann Crystal.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13072044_AX2.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------------------


This book is all twisted, the LT is in here dealing with the creation of MegaverseS,
Phoenix is saving an Alternate Universe that diverged from 616
yet this alternate reality contains Galactus' origin completely separated from the Phoenix's,
it also depicts the remaking of this Alternate Reality but lulzingly so.

Mr. M convinced me. It's a stalemate TT and PF are quite even, first I though TT would win now I'm not sure.

Originally posted by Mr Master
===========================================


Don't believe the Phoenix hype yall!


Planetary EMP,
which evidently is enough to shatter the almighty PF!

......................................................................................

Xorn, killing Jean Grey ... and exploding the actual Phoenix Force itself!

......................................................................................


On Panel:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534712_jean_dies1.jpg

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534714_jean_dies2.jpg

......................................................................................


Beast remembers:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2120694_jeandiesuj7.jpg

......................................................................................


Bio:

......................................................................................


(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2005)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/543034_hct2005.jpg

"Jean Grey was Killed by an Electromagnetic Pulse,

this shattered the Force into Billions of PIECES"

......................................................................................


(from WC Phoenix - Jean Grey's official 2008 bio)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/537120_jean.jpg

"Jean opposed faux Magneto but was killed by a lethal EMP
that shattered the Phoenix Force into Billions of pieces"

......................................................................................


This incident involving Xorn & the Phoenix Force
was actually recalled by the embodiment of the Phoenix Force itself in "Endsong"

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/4225596_pfbillioncl9.jpg

"I thought I was Dead, in a Billion Billion pieces"


===========================================


If Xorn can kill a PF host and shattered the PF into billions of pieces by a alpha mutant, you think a being like ION will do, who could have easily phuck up Parallax, Extant and Time Trapper with ease!!

The PF is not a important being, unlike Galactus who is important, if he dies he unleashes Abraxas who is Anti Eternity and is the great destroyer. Even Galactus stated he could eradicate the PF period, I believe that since he does have Ultimate Nullifier and other means.


Classic ION sh** stomps PF period!! So would WOM Scarlett Witch, MJJ etc

Oh yea, Mr. M shuttin' GalacticStorm's bullcrap down yet again. You'd think GS would be embarrassed by now.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Alien Entity "crap"
took place in legitimate mainstream Fantastic Four issues,
and it's in the Handbooks confirmed.

While this Phoenix "crap"
took place in an Alternate Reality (NOT mainstream) that diverged from 616.




Also, the Alien Entity & Reed didn't ignore anything,
because they stood in the nothingness before the Big Bang.

Now, before the Nothingness there was another Reality,
that which was the prior "god/reality" ... the Infinity Being, or previous Eternity.

There was never a previous Marvel 616 though,
just existence within the Infinity Being.
(yes, evidently all kinds of life, from demons to humanoids to whatever)

Google Marvel Universe.
Or go directly to Marvel.com's site and search Marvel Universe.

You'll find the Beginnings of the Universe, and the Ends of the Universe.

Sise-Neg - Entropy/Genis - Thanos/HOTI - Alien Entity/Reed and Galactus' birth.

That's all that's recognized ...
and the Phoenix Force is not mentioned anywhere at all.

You're not referring to the Mkraan Crystal
that took out that ONE Alternate Reality are you?

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13072480_AX7.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13072483_AX8.jpg

Actually, you are, therefore your statement is not true.

True.

It did stop the Dweller in Darkness from conquering that single Alternate Reality:





This is 100% False.

Aside from that scan stating no such thing,
that's not even from the same comic book as the one depicting Phoenix.

Phoenix NEVER appeared in that comic. (not even mentioned by name)

Nice try.


Yea, explained above.
Even in the scans which both Sundipped and Tyant provided , its not shown or even alluded to that it was the PHOENIX WHICH TRANSFORMED GALEN .
Even in those scans , its the universe's sentience(ala the previous iteration of Eternity) who did the actual job .
At best it only shows or possibly alludes to that the Phoenix contributed to Galen's destiny to merge with the Sentience , by ensuring that he reached it . She didn't have a direct role in his transformation at all .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller


Even in the scans which both Sundipped and Tyant provided ,
its not shown or even alluded to that it was the PHOENIX WHICH
TRANSFORMED GALEN .
Even in those scans , its the universe's sentience(ala the previous
iteration of Eternity) who did the actual job .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

At best it only shows or possibly alludes to that the Phoenix
contributed to Galen's destiny to merge with the Sentience , by
ensuring that he reached it .
I'd like to give her at-least that, but not even.

Her feat was sending a telepathic message to all life in that universe.

The message's purpose was to take away the fear from those lives that would die.

That's it.

Everything else played out on it's own under its own specific set of circumstances.

Like Galan getting in that ship and taking off,
traveling as far as he could
right before getting incinerated by the implosion of that reality
he was protected/saved by the Universe itself. (previous all reality)
Said sentience merged with Galan in order to produce Galactus in the next creation.

That's it.

Phoenix had/has nothing to do with any of that in any sense of the word.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

She didn't have a direct role in his transformation at all .

GalacticStorm is right. Mr. Master is wrong.

The end.

Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
GalacticStorm is right. Mr. Master is wrong .

The end.
You're wrong .

The End .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
You're wrong .

The End .

Go troll a Baskin Robbins.

You have to be a moran to think Ion loses.

Complete and utter moran.

Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Go troll a Baskin Robbins.
As a moran himself says :
Originally posted by Mindset
You have to be a moran to think Ion loses.

Complete and utter moran.


Ciao .

Originally posted by Pot
Kettle, Go troll a Baskin Robbins.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Ciao.

Please speak English in the forums or I'll report you.

Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Please speak English in the forums or I'll report you.
Reported for Language-Nazism .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Reported for Language-Nazism .

Ever heard of Godwin's Law?

Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Ever heard of Godwin's Law?
http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/9862996.jpg

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/9862996.jpg

you must be really proud of yourself, troll.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
As a moran himself says :



Ciao . Still mad you can't do basic math or physics?

Let's just move past it.

Originally posted by Mindset
Still mad you can't do basic math or physics?

Let's just move past it.
You still reek of butthurt .

Says the guy who responds to everyone of my posts and losing in every debate against me.

I'm like 40 - 0.

World Champ.

Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
you must be really proud of yourself, troll.
I <3 you too .

Originally posted by Mindset
Says the guy who responds to everyone of my posts and losing in every debate against me.

I'm like 40 - 0.

World Champ.
You're still butthurt over the fact that you lose every confrontation you have with me .

Yes your 40-0 record against me is that of "no. of debates lost" .

I agree that you're the World Champ of being butthurt , sure .

Trying too hard.

I won again.

41-0