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So a lot of politicians and even the former Mexican President Fox has argued for the legalization of drugs in Mexico. It is already legal to possess small quantities of drugs for personal use.

One of their main arguments is that the drug war has not worked and has cost the government money, and created powerful criminal organizations all across South America.

Some countries have claimed the initial drug war was started and supported by the U.S. for ulterior motives which did not have the countries best interest in mind.

How do you think legalizing drugs in mexico would effect the country and the U.S.?


How would the U.S. respond if south american countries followed suit? I think Uruguay was the 1st country to do it in south america.

what are the pros and cons in your opinion?

discuss

The USA should admit that the war on drugs is a failure and admit that their policies have ruined Latin America.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
The USA should admit that the war on drugs is a failure and admit that their policies have ruined Latin America.

These aren't Mom-and-Pop marijuana growers getting persecuted by the Mexican government or something. They kill people to maintain power and they have long since diversified their portfolios. Ending the drug war in Mexico won't do much of anything. At best its a symbolic act by the Mexican government, at worst that symbol says "you win" to people who are murdering their citizens.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
These aren't Mom-and-Pop marijuana growers getting persecuted by the Mexican government or something. They kill people to maintain power and they have long since diversified their portfolios. Ending the drug war in Mexico won't do much of anything. At best its a symbolic act by the Mexican government, at worst that symbol says "you win" to people who are murdering their citizens. To be fair, continuing the drug war in Mexico won't do anything either.

Winning the drug war in Central and South America is as much an impossibility as winning the War on Terror in the Middle East is for us.

And the war might actually end a lot sooner if the Mexican government allowed US troops to come in since this war is annoying the everloving crap out of us.

Originally posted by Nemesis X
And the war might actually end a lot sooner if the Mexican government allowed US troops to come in since this war is annoying the everloving crap out of us. You guys just always need a place to stick your dick, huh?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You guys just always need a place to stick your dick, huh?

You have a noisy neighbor from across the street. Instead of filing a complaint that receives no response from your less caring landlord, would you want to go over there, see what the problem is and see if you can help stop what's causing the ruckus?

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
To be fair, continuing the drug war in Mexico won't do anything either.

Winning the drug war in Central and South America is as much an impossibility as winning the War on Terror in the Middle East is for us. BS.

the drug war dies once you legalize it. the cartels shifting to other legal activities doesn't mean the mexican people on average wont benefit from the drug being legal. 1st of all drugs should never have been illegal for a race of people which drug use is part of their culture for thousands of years.

its retarded to have made it illegal b/c western people didnt like their native culture.

you legalize drugs and the prison population drops massively which in turn means more money for other government programs, better quality life in prison, higher pay for police and employees..

Weed would make billions for mexico and provide jobs for people from farmers, factories providing things from cigs, food, clothing, oil, paper which can all be taxed, and again help improve the government and better funded law enforcement.

by legalizing it, it also frees up the police to continue hunting and arresting cartel members. they are not getting immunity.

It would make millionaires overnight.


Mexico should allow for tourist to also use drugs, build clubs, casino.. so much could change for mexico almost overnight..

Originally posted by Nietzschean
BS.

the drug war dies once you legalize it. What historical precedence implies this?

I think you're entirely mistaken that these violent cartel organizations would simply wither up and die the moment people have a legal alternative to get their fix.

Originally posted by Nietzschean
the drug war dies once you legalize it. the cartels shifting to other legal activities doesn't mean the mexican people on average wont benefit from the drug being legal

Why exactly do you think the cartels will suddenly switch to legal activities if drugs are legalized? A lot of them run guns already and all of them have influence over local governments where they operate. Whether their businesses are legal or not their business practices tend to involved beheading people and leaving their corpses on the side of the road. Mexico will still be at war with them.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Why exactly do you think the cartels will suddenly switch to legal activities if drugs are legalized? A lot of them run guns already and all of them have influence over local governments where they operate. Whether their businesses are legal or not their business practices tend to involved beheading people and leaving their corpses on the side of the road. Mexico will still be at war with them. I didnt say the cartel would switch from illegal activities. I said you would remove one illegal activity by making it legal. they would lose 60% of their income which comes from drugs.

The cartel would re prioritize and obviously pursue other illegal activities.. since selling a drug which cost half if not less and there iis no demand would no longer be profitable.

Their business practices are irrelevant they are still criminal and should be treated as such. these guys dont get amnesty in anyway for what they have done.


the war will begin to favor the mexican law enforcement by virtue of better funding, focus on one group of people instead of arresting drug users.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
What historical precedence implies this?

I think you're entirely mistaken that these violent cartel organizations would simply wither up and die the moment people have a legal alternative to get their fix. I never said it would wither up and die.. but, it would put a massive dent and make them slightly easier to handle as well as provide income and reduce corruption and civil dissident.

umm.. b/c it is the logical outcome once you stop arresting and going to war over drugs.

the war will be over something else.

Do we still have war over alcohol once prohibition was repealed?

look at countries like Amsterdam, portugal.

They should give it the ol college try.

Originally posted by Mindset
They should give it the ol college try. they dont want to let u.s. tourist do them though.. which is stupid, they would make it a crime.

Originally posted by Nemesis X
You have a noisy neighbor from across the street. Instead of filing a complaint that receives no response from your less caring landlord, would you want to go over there, see what the problem is and see if you can help stop what's causing the ruckus? No I'd want to get my entire crew involved in a long costly scouring of his house to find the cockroaches who know the place better than I do. Any reprisals and hate from my neighbor's family at having my guys patrol their home are totally worth it on my end, so long as I get to f*ck someone, amirite?

Originally posted by Nietzschean
I didnt say the cartel would switch from illegal activities. I said you would remove one illegal activity by making it legal. they would lose 60% of their income which comes from drugs.

No they wouldn't. They'd keep selling drugs. Remember how drugs are legal in this scenario? Yeah, they already control the drug trade in Mexico. They'd control the legal drug trade too. Nothing meaningful changes in this scenario but, sure, you've won a minor symbolic victory for potheads everywhere.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No they wouldn't. They'd keep selling drugs. Remember how drugs are legal in this scenario? Yeah, they already control the drug trade in Mexico. They'd control the legal drug trade too. Nothing meaningful changes in this scenario but, sure, you've won a minor symbolic victory for potheads everywhere. umm...no. factories and legal protections changes things due to quality control.

the mexican law enforcement already has a large list of known drug dealers and traffickers its not like they can walk out and invest in companies..

the most meaningful thing is the mexican people get what they want which the government should never have denied them to begin with. it provides works for people..

Do you really thing the drug cartel is controlling tobacco fields, tomatoes, alcohol business? its not profitable for them and not convenient to take control due to plots of land being protected and maintained by government military, police, private security..

the minute weed becomes legal it will cost a few cents for a cigaweed.
Cartels will lose employes looking for more legitimate jobs.

Originally posted by Nietzschean
they dont want to let u.s. tourist do them though.. which is stupid, they would make it a crime. Racism.

Let's invade.

Given it is consumption of drugs in America that funds these cartels, the legalization of drugs in Mexico will have little effect, except to allow regular citizens to purchase the drugs from the state rather than a cartel member, maybe(?)...

Originally posted by Nietzschean
the minute weed becomes legal it will cost a few cents for a cigaweed.

that isn't how any products on the market are valued.

What Oliver North said: it needs to be legal in the US AND Mexico in order to see a significant change in how crime is done.


And the crime diversification is much closer to "Cocaine, Marijuana, Methamphetamine, Ecstasy, and opiates." It is much less something like, "heavy machinery, guns, illicit drugs, and pharmaceuticals." That's not how Mexican Drug Cartels operate.

There are currently 7 (or 8) major drug cartels. They are NOT diverse: almost all their operations focus, in some way, on making drugs or trafficking drugs. Legalizing drugs in Mexico, as Oliver North pointed out, does not solve the majority of the problems with drugs and drug cartels in Mexico: the money is being made north of the border.

If we legalized drugs in the US in a way that covered about 100% of the drugs trafficked from Mexico into the US, it may vastly reduce the profitability of drug operations from the cartels. But, it would change the market from illegal to above-board operations: not really a big change. These cartels would function more like corporations, at this point. And they have the cash assets to quickly transform operations to conform to the new legal requirements.

What we would see is a slow and gradual transformation as the markets become quickly saturated with sources of drugs from places other than the Mexican Cartels. You would see some residual violence from the cartels continue but it would eventually die off as most operations become "above-board".

Currently, many pharmaceuticals consumed in the US come from Mexican labs. These drugs are knock-offs and illegal products from name-brand drug companies. What makes anyone think these operations would magically cease to exist? A Mexican Lab that can produce Pfizer grade drugs is hardly going to be at a disadvantage if most drugs are made legal in the US.

Basically, making drugs legal in Mexico and the US does not immediately stop the cartel problems. But, in the long term (10-20 years), it probably would reduce the crime.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You guys just always need a place to stick your dick, huh?


"See, there's three kinds of people: dicks, pussies, and assholes. Pussies think everyone can get along, and dicks just want to **** all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your assholes, . And all the assholes want us to shit all over everything! So, pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while, because pussies get ****ed by dicks. But dicks also **** assholes, . And if they didn't **** the assholes, you know what you'd get? You'd get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit!"

"We're (The USA) dicks! We're reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks. ... Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get ****ed by dicks. But dicks also **** assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can **** an ******* is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is: they **** too much or **** when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don't let us **** this *******, we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in shit!"


Note: I didn't edit anything so the censor would censor.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And the crime diversification is much closer to "Cocaine, Marijuana, Methamphetamine, Ecstasy, and opiates."

you could add kidnapping, ransom, extortion, gun smuggling, assassination, political corruption, human smuggling, etc.

I agree that legalizing drugs in the US would be a huge blow to the cartels, possibly a fatal one in the long term, but with the power the cartels wield already, they aren't going to be simply displaced, and the Mexican government is really in no better position to tackle them directly. I think the cartels could easily diversify and muscle their way into other illicit forms of money making, however, it may reduce the violence and the cartels may become more like traditional organized crime groups: attempting to attract as little attention as possible.

Originally posted by Nietzschean
umm...no. factories and legal protections changes things due to quality control.

Cartels already murder their competition to keep themselves in power. Do you honestly think that's going to change just because you made drugs legal? The Mexican army can't stop those killings and outside of Libertarian wet dreams a group of weed growing homesteaders aren't going to hold odd cartel soldiers.

Originally posted by Nietzschean
the mexican law enforcement already has a large list of known drug dealers and traffickers its not like they can walk out and invest in companies..

If the Mexican government could control the cartels there's wouldn't be a drug war. They would have ended it.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Cartels already murder their competition to keep themselves in power. Do you honestly think that's going to change just because you made drugs legal? The Mexican army can't stop those killings and outside of Libertarian wet dreams a group of weed growing homesteaders aren't going to hold odd cartel soldiers.



If the Mexican government could control the cartels there's wouldn't be a drug war. They would have ended it. the mexican military cant control them b/c they hit and run and grow their drugs in hard to reach and unknown areas. you actually think the cartel can actually fight the mexican military head on?


they have small skirmishes from time to time that is all and in these usually the mexican military wins. my cousin was Mexican/U.S. drug law enforcement.

he has told me it isnt that they cant defend or take them down by force and overpowering them, its that they are spread out and cannot be located and usually have support from towns and local people which they help provide for so no one turns them in.

you might as well say the police/f.b.i./ATF/Marines cannot stop drug crime and legalizing drugs wont stop anything b/c they kill one another and other people.



the drug cartels control certain areas where police military is not at but they arent stupid enough to attack factories, farms where there is a military police presence which by the way the mexican government actually provides for certain companies or lands, and progressing towns.. it actually does deters them from certain areas.

Originally posted by Oliver North
you could add kidnapping, ransom, extortion, gun smuggling, assassination, political corruption, human smuggling, etc.

Well, actually, you could add pretty much every last single illegal activity ever to their crime list (including cyber terrorism and treason) . But those are hardly their primary motivations. Major organized crime elements commit all sorts of atrocities. But saying that they are "diversified" is not very telling of how much the Mexican Drug Cartels are invested in just that: drugs. Remove all drug operations from their "service catalog" and you end up with an organized crime syndicates that have been hollowed out with barely anyway to make money: the could not support themselves, any longer.

Originally posted by Oliver North
I think the cartels could easily diversify and muscle their way into other illicit forms of money making,

I don't. But, let's be real: no such laws or enforcement of laws will occur in a manner that forces the Mexican Drug Cartels to have to restructure and develop "business" models around different services (other than drug related services), overnight.


Originally posted by Oliver North
however, it may reduce the violence and the cartels may become more like traditional organized crime groups: attempting to attract as little attention as possible.

That is more desirable, for sure.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Cartels already murder their competition to keep themselves in power. Do you honestly think that's going to change just because you made drugs legal? The Mexican army can't stop those killings and outside of Libertarian wet dreams a group of weed growing homesteaders aren't going to hold odd cartel soldiers.

But american corporations and millions of private "drug makers" will certainly undermine the Mexican Drug Cartel's hold...making them virtually impotent. They won't squabble over a market that is saturated: they can't wage a war against multiple big name drug corporations and millions of individual drug makers.

In other words, a libertarian's wet dream is impossible (and I honestly don't know what a libertarian's dream about this drug problem would be) because major corporations will be players.



Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If the Mexican government could control the cartels there's wouldn't be a drug war. They would have ended it.

Short of systematic mass murder, there's hardly anything that could be done. And even if they did that, eventually, some other group would pop-up in their place. The environment has to change, too.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But american corporations and millions of private "drug makers" will certainly undermine the Mexican Drug Cartel's hold...making them virtually impotent.

Only if the US also legalizes drugs which was not at all part of the OP. Legalizing drugs in Mexico alone is totally pointless.

If you'd like to be part of the discussion at least go look at what the conversation is about.

Originally posted by dadudemon
and I honestly don't know what a libertarian's dream about this drug problem would be

Heinlein inspired power fantasies, as usual.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Short of systematic mass murder

Because we all know cartels are strongly opposed to killing lots of people in order to make money.

Originally posted by dadudemon
"See, there's three kinds of people: dicks, pussies, and assholes. Pussies think everyone can get along, and dicks just want to **** all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your assholes, . And all the assholes want us to shit all over everything! So, pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while, because pussies get ****ed by dicks. But dicks also **** assholes, . And if they didn't **** the assholes, you know what you'd get? You'd get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit!"

"We're (The USA) dicks! We're reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks. ... Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get ****ed by dicks. But dicks also **** assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can **** an ******* is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is: they **** too much or **** when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don't let us **** this *******, we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in shit!"


Note: I didn't edit anything so the censor would censor. You had me at dicks **** assholes.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Only if the US also legalizes drugs which was not at all part of the OP. Legalizing drugs in Mexico alone is totally pointless.

If you'd like to be part of the discussion at least go look at what the conversation is about.

My bad: I thought both you and I were speculating and commenting on what the libertarian wet dream would be concerning drug legalization (fundamentally, it has to be legalized in the US: deviating from that position would not be something most libertarians would do) because that's what you mentioned.

Surely you don't believe libertarians only want weed unconditionally legalized? I thought that was just you being snarky about one of their favorite subjects: I didn't believe you only meant just weed and weed alone.

No, honestly, I apologize. I didn't mean to offend.


Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Heinlein inspired power fantasies, as usual.

I am not as cultured as you are: I am not very familiar with Heinlein's political philosophies in his science fiction writings. I assume it has a lot to do with self-determination and personal liberty? Please, paint a picture for the ignorant because I'd love to laugh at this obviously witty comment: your joke is lost on ignorant eyes.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Because we all know cartels are strongly opposed to killing lots of people in order to make money.

I was referring to the systematic mass murder of the members of the cartels. If you go back and read that statement, again, with that knowledge, my comment makes much more sense.

Also, who is "we" in your above statement?

r81_GhjOzv0#!

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, actually, you could add pretty much every last single illegal activity ever to their crime list (including cyber terrorism and treason) . But those are hardly their primary motivations. Major organized crime elements commit all sorts of atrocities. But saying that they are "diversified" is not very telling of how much the Mexican Drug Cartels are invested in just that: drugs. Remove all drug operations from their "service catalog" and you end up with an organized crime syndicates that have been hollowed out with barely anyway to make money: the could not support themselves, any longer.

Drugs are the primary source of their resources and cause of violence, but they are equally as involved in kidnap/extortion scams (especially on migrants trying to cross the border in their territory) as they are in many other things.

I don't know what you mean by "diversified" if not: doing many things to gain money. The only difference is that there is not nearly as much money to be made in it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't. But, let's be real: no such laws or enforcement of laws will occur in a manner that forces the Mexican Drug Cartels to have to restructure and develop "business" models around different services (other than drug related services), overnight.

not overnight, no, but before the Mexican law enforcement agencies can organize enough to stop them, for sure.