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I don't know if this has been discussed before, but after checking out the we sbite I mentioned in the lightsabre fighting section, I want to get some opinions from you wounderful guys...

We've been talking a little about the enormous task of wiping out the Jedi. As we hear it, Vader "helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi..." We may or may not see this happen in the next two episodes. If we DO, it is a mammoth task- but HOW mammoth, exactly?

The films have never stated how many Jedi there are. The books have stated 10,000. This seems reasonable enough for a small, super-elite force. Do you agree?

Interestingly, the 10,1000 figure can be destroyed by the Midi-Chlorians. If, as some poeple beleive, Jedi have to personally identify potential recruits, then a figure of 10,000 is way, way, way too small, in light of Qui-Gon's assertion that ALL potential Jedi are quickly discovered inside the Republic...

If, on the other hand, the Midi-Chlorians are an open secret and facilities to test for them are widespread, then the 10,000 figure is possible.

This is a bit of a double-jointed topic, touching on both the nature of the MCs (which I get the feeling everyone hates) and the more mundane number of Jedi. Thoughts?

well, I got three words for you. GRAND...ADMIRAL...THRAWN

I'm sorry, I have no idea what relevance that has... though as its EU, I doubt it has any...

right on. Oh wait, that had no relevance either...

do you read the books Ushi? If you do, you should know that a handful of books have better plot lines than Ep1. Oops, did I say a handful, I meant all of them, but they also tell about things that don't happen in the movies, so, to say that they don't count is an understatement. They count very much so, GL can't explain the entire SW Universe,so where else are you gonna get the rest of the story??

Some people would greatly disagree with you there, JM - I being one of them. I personally don't think that we should use the EU as a way to explain certain speculations in the Prequel Trilogy. I'm fairly sure that I'm right in saying that George Lucas stated that the Expanded Universe holds no importance or relevance to the films and that he shall do as he pleases, regardless of what other authors have said. It's his creation after all. I doubt he'll stand by and let others spoil what he wants to happen in his films.

yeah right, so where do you find your star wars entertainment in the 3 years between films, do you just sit and wait??

Don't get me wrong, I love reading the books, they are very entertaining, but they are not cannon. Lucas will not care if he totally goes against what the authors have said in the EU. Thrawn was a great character, but he has no place in the "real" SW universe.

As an example I give you 4 words... ORIGIN of Boba Fett.

Now, I know it's been said that because of the timescales both the EU version and the Movie version could co-exist, but it was stated that we should forget all we thought we should knbow about this guy in favour of the movie version...

BTW, I think the answer is 10,000 anyway.

10,000 is the current rumour, yes.

Wow, that got a bit off-topic, didn't it? Regarless of the wait between films, EU is NOT canon and is therefore to be ignored.

10,000 is indeed the rumour. Ht like I say, it comes down to midi-chlorians. If Jedi are having to amke personal diagnosis, then they are having to check several trillion people a year. Not even vageuly credible...

And are all Force-senstitive people Knights? Perhaps that's just the elite. The there could be many more than 10,000.

Wait a sec there ush, this whole topic is based on the books, you said it yourself, yet now you say that they should be ignored?? I don't get it, what is this topic about then, if it's to be ignored, then why did you make this topic.

I guess he's just curious...

As for the jedi numbers..it's possible that there are many many people who are tested and aren't knighted for whatever reason..It would seem likely that alot of the little jedi hopeful don't make the cut and maybe carry out other duties in the jedi organization..I mean, think about it...look at the kids that they take from their parents. It would seem that after all that time and investment that they would want to keep as many force sensitive people around the Jedi as they could..to care out other duties. It's also viable that maybe after a certain point some aren't so much rejected as that they're place in other arenas where they're talents are better utilized...Jedi Scholars for example.

Ah,ha but the number of jedi is only mentioned in the books... oh forget that for now, After the Sith War, jedi numbers were grealty depleted. and after 4,000 years, I doubt there would still be 10,000 jedi, at least 4,000, or maybe a smaller number, if the council members are supposedly "The Best" jedi, and there are about 15 of them. there is probably a much smaller amount of jedi.

Well, that's all EU ten. So your estimates are also based on EU and therefore not really valid for EpII speculation.

When we are talking jedi numbers should that include padawans?

Well, yes, Why not. They will all be killed I think. And the essence of knowing the number is that we can speculate how they all die within such a small time frame.

I would have thought that Jedi Knights would not include Jedi Padawans, after all they are in training.

The real question is: would Palpy let them live?

I dont mean if Palpy will kill them or not we all know he will, I`m just talking numbers. 10 000 is a rumored number, but do that include padawans?

Does it matter?

Yeah, I would think it matters, afterall they have been trained in the Jedi arts and could bet a threat to him.

That has to do with the question if Palpy would kill them. But does it matter whether they're part of the statistical number of Jedi? That's a little too trivial to me.

I guess not, but if in TPM Obi-Wan was a Padawan and not considered a Knight and he killed a Sith Lord so I imagine there are quite a few Padawans who are more than just "children"

Merc... we don't really have to be so hostile about it. I don't immediately reject everything that the EU says, just because it is EU. But my point is that even though the books say 10,000, bercause they are EU, we are not obliged to accept that figure, so I wanted to invite discussion on what we thought the figure might be. And I have! I am happy.

Remember, there are many, many, trillions of people in the Republic. What percentage do we think can make the cut to be Jedi? If it is 10000, then it is about 0.00000001 percent or thereabouts... do people really think it's that small? It's not impossible, but do people really think that?

it's very possible. as someone stated before(I'm too lazy to look back) many people are force sensitive, but not all can be discovered by jedi, if they think they are strong enough, they go to a master and ask. 10,000 is a good number considering that most of the trillions are just ordinary people. Not all are crazy jedi-life threatning goons, all trying to destroy the Republic. I'd say that the numbers of mercenaries and rebels are around 10,000 also, providing an equal bad-guy good-guy ratio

Here's another thought. From TPM and Anakin's response to Qui-Gon's light sabre, it seems as if the Jedi have quite a reputation but that they are rarely seen. Watto's remark ("You think you're some kind of Jedi" makes clear that their ways are kind of known. It seems to be a confirmation of their reputation. So if Jedi are rarely seen, it's not so strange that this elitist group is afirly small. They sure make an impact.

Another thing to bear in mind- Qui-GOn seems very confident that ALL force senstive poeple are quickly detected by the Republic. So there are no people falling through the net. If you can be a Jedi, you WILL be.

I agree, Ush. When born under the Republic of course. It's still not very clear how may planets fall under the Republic and how many not.

what?? I'm not quite sure what you mean by "detected by the Republic" where does this happen?? Not in TPM. The Republic cannot "detect" people. What your saying is kinda forceful Ushgrak. What if they don't want to be jedi?? Jedi can't take people against their will.

Well qui-gon tells shmi they would have found/detected Anakin much earlier had he lived within the republic. Nobody said take people, but I guess they talk them into it.
I think being a jedi is a honorable thing people want to be. They are few and they are chosen, I would compeare it with being chosen as a guard at the Vatican.(swissguard)

Agreed, and I think that in the Republic the Jedi have an ear out for that sort of thing..and they would probably have Jedi stationed on planets so that they could be on the look out for that sort of thing.

oh yeah, they did that in the tales of the jedi comic books, very cool

AH, Dim, so you think they have people stationed to look out for the Jedi? In that case, how do they deal with the overload created by the ridiculously enormous birth rate in the Republic? If you needed Jedi to look out for them, then there must be FAR more than 10,000

Merc... why do you always make these wild assumptions about me? I made a perfectly valid comment from the films, then you make out that I made it up..

Ush made a very valid comment indeed, finti. Know your SW.

Maybe they can sense Force sensitive people over long distances as tremors or vergences. I don't know what this Council does, but they also did some kind of Force research about the Sith in TPM. Sitting in their Ivory Tower they somehow sensed that Sith were at play. How did they do that? I think there's a little more going on.

Yes, the idea that Jedi can remotely sense potential recruits is a possible get-out clause. However, if Tatooine is closer to Naboo than Coruscant is, it means that many non-Republic worlds should be within reach of this Jedi sense, so Qui-Gon's quote that Anakin would have been detected if he were 'in the Republic' makes less sense. And surely someone would have sensed Anakin, the most force-sensitive person ever, before Qui-Gon did- which he only did by meeting him?

The Council, of course, probably have all manner of great powers that they can use, especially undr Yoda's guidance, to do extra-sensory research into the Sith. Yet they still didn't find Anakin...

My feeling is that if there number of Jedi is close to the 10,000 figure, then they must have a vast civilian medical operation that checks the Midi-Chlorian count of all babies born in the Republic. However, this contrasts badly with the belief some people have that Midi-Chlorians are a secret. If you believe this, then I think you must also believe the number of Jedi to be much larger- after all, there could be several million Jedi, and that would still only be a tiny fraction of the population of the Republic.

I know you are down on using the EU as reference but Master Thon held a meeting of over 10,000 Jedi Masters on Deneba. Now I don't know if that was all of the masters, but I would think that the number of plain Knights would be far greater than the number of masters.

To determine how many Jedi there are, we first would need to determine the number of habitable systems in the galaxy.
I would assume that the Star Wars galaxy would have a comparable number of stars as our own. If this is the case, then it has roughly 200 billion stars. Looking at the map in the NJO books(EU, I know) it appears that they have explored over three quarters of the galaxy. That would put it at 150 billion registered systems. Not all systems have planets, in fact, I believe that only about 1% of the systems that we have identified in our own galaxy contain planets. That still leaves us with 1.5 billion systems. Out of the roughly 100 systems we have identified, we have only found one that has an atmosphere comparable to that of Earth's. Life could have evolved in a different environment, but since we only know of it evolving in an oxygen rich environment, we would have to assume that only 1% of systems with planets would have habitable planets. That leaves us with 15 million habitable systems. Most habitable systems would have been colonized in the Star Wars universe for one reason or another. So, we have 15 million inhabited planets, and our Jedi find most people with force ability immediately after birth. So how many people are there and how many births are there, and how many of those births are force sensitive?
I would say that Earth is more heavily populated than they average of most Star Wars planets. So let's just put the number at about half. That would be 3 billion people per 15 million(maybe more because some systems have more than one habitable planet) planets, which would be 45 quadrillion people. Now in order to identify the force-laden individuals, a Jedi could not be too far away, because Qui-Gonn could not sense Anakin's force potential. If Anakin was found on a sparsely populated planet such as Tatooine, I would have to say that there is approximately one force-sensitive individual per 1 billion people. That would put the number of force-sensitives at 45 million. I would say that most of those are weak in the force and are never considered for training. So lets say we have 10 million people powerful enough in the force to be or become Jedi knights. The number of trained and untrained would have to be about the same so we would have approximately 5 million trained Jedi Knights and Masters.

What do you think?

thank God for EU. Wild assumptions about you?? I don't get it, have I ever said anything about you that was personel??
Could you please clear this up for me Ushgrak, I don't understand

Huh Merc, I don't think Ush could clear this up for you...

As for the detection of force sensitive people..I think Ush's idea of testing at birth might be a good notion..if not that then I atleast feel like there are people within the Jedi organization (who are *NOT* knights) who are on the lookout of force sensitives... If Lucas decides to go with the 10,000 number then I don't see how the knights could carry out that duty..especially if the numbers that Tsavong mentioned ( ) are reiterated in the next two movies

wait,wait, WAIT, that was an insult wasn't it Dim?? Think I'm stupid do ya?? I'll show you!! or were you talking about Ushgrak??

it was a JOKE Merc...had to get cha because you were giving Ush a hard time


Anyway...back on topic.

I think that the KEY point was made by Qui Gon.

"Had Anakin been born in the Republic he would have been discovered much earlier" Or something like that.

Anyway, the Republic does not consitutate the entire galaxy, though admittedly it is big just from looking at the number of Senate Officials in the Sanate.

But, there is a finite area in which they look. Perhaps the tests were carried out routinely at birth for Midichlorian detection, much at Qui Gon did with Anakins blood. Children with high MC's are notified to the council who then would initiate further testing. I doubt you needed to be a Jedi to run the tests.

Just a thought Mr. Lucas.

I think that the midi-chlorians are a secret and that if you wanted an organization of civilians large enough to screen all new-borns then the secret of the MD's would get out.

midi-chlorians are the stupidest thing I've ever heard, can we not talk about them??

Sorry Merc. Much as people hate them they are in there, so I can't really get away without talking about them... anyhow, let's put our stupid argument aside. Quote as much EU as you like... the only point I'll make is that as it's not canon, it's only as valid as any other opinion- and this is an opinionated topic, of course.

A couple of points, especially to the guy who wrote the mini-essay earlier...

I feel after a thousand generations of colonisation most world will actually be roughly Earth populated, what with decent medicine and agriculture and all. And if many planets are like Coruscant- totally urbanised, you don't want to even THINK about the popuilatuion. EU says Coruscant has 100 bllion people, wans't it? Or was it ten? Either way, I think my estimate of trillions in the Republic is closer to the mark.

And (apologies, Merc) the Midi-Chlorians... do people really think they are a secret? Like I say, that's vital to the number of Jedi question. I don't see why they should be- as I've said before, knowing about MCs hardly means you can do anything about them. They are just a naturaL life-form...

The question about whether only Jedi or not can test for them is interesting. Appearnces are deceptive- on firstr watching, it looks like Amidala's ship has the relevant testing equiipment. A closer look reveals otherwise...

BAH! HUMBUG! Midi-Chlorians I never want to hear that again.

Closer look? Please explain, Ush.

A. Amidala's ship is a Royal Yacht. A science suite probably isn't in the specs.

B. And even if it was, why would Obi-Wan be sitting next to it while talking to Qui-Gon?

C. But then, why does Qui-Gon send the sample to be analyzed? He has a hologprahic dispaly thing that could display the results for him.

D. But most tellingly, Obi-Wan turns the computer next to him on BEFORE Qui-Gon tells him what he wants done with the sample.

The logical conclusion is that Qui-Gon wanted a more detailed analysis than his equipment could provide. The device Obi-Wan turns on is a simple computer. He runs the sample analysis through it,and knows how to interpret the results.

That's not necessarily a CERTAIN conclusion, though. It just seems the mostlikely.

Now wait. He never got any blood before that moment. He just wanted to check his blood, now he could have discussed that with OB1 but he sent it almost immediately after acquiring it. So that's just some movie storytelling I think.

Well yeah, a cklassic "Plot Point" But the terst was rather straight foreard, which is the point being made I think, therefore a test of a new born baby could be none routinely.

However, it would make sence that the Midi-Clorians are secret, otherwise Luke could pick up that info very easily.

Also, why did OB1 or Yoda not tell him about the little critters.

"A mystical energy force" indeed.....

well, the reason Yoda didn't tell Luke about them is he thought that they were real stupid and that George should take them out of the plot.

The continuity of the testing sequence is quite clear, although I may be doing everyone a disservice by taking it all so literally (mind you, that's being a fan for you...).

As to why Luke was never told (bloody retroactive continuity, eh?). Is it possible that telling Anakin about it is part of what helped him fall, so they decided to stay quiet about it next time?

You know, the MCs may turn out to be a really good plot. I think much of the hatred to them stems from assumptions about what they are that are incorrect. Though if some of the assumptions ARE correct, then Merc has every right to moan!

what??!! I've never moaned over something like this in my entire life. If midi-chlorians make a good plot, then from now on call me Kelsey Grammar

Hello K... no, far too obvious.

Oh, forget it, I don't care anymore, this is the place to get angry at Star Wars isn't it??

Well, as much as any place.

Well I will get angry then.

Ok...

Back on topic, do people think Jedi status is hereditary, at least in part? That could help the Republic deal with the massive organisational overload, and explain why Anakin was so totally missed.

some people think that jedis are just crazy wizards.

That's an interesting question, which has been bugging me for a while. It all has to do with the question if there's such a thing as a "no marriage"cluase for Jedi. Only Ep2 can answer that.

Well, I would guess there simply has to be an hereditary concept to the Jedi.

After all, Luke and Leia had it, and it seems to have been implied that they gained it from Anakin.

In the EU, all three Solo children have it because Leia was there monther. Also, Corran Horn came from a line of Jedi and they all had the distinction of not being able to master telekinesis.

What I would say is that I don't believe the strength of force ability in the parent has a direct reflection on the strength of force ability of the child.

But that's all post-Jedi Council. It is still not clear if Jedi can marry. It might be part of the conflict with Anakin when he wants to marry Padme.
So sure, Force sensitivity is hereditary, but that might be the very reason why Jedi can't marry. Too much inbred Jedi.

Welllll, maybe the all come from the deep south of Coruscant!!!!

Yes? So? I don't get it.

In breeding, oh forget it. Ask Dim to explain it to you.

Oh okay. Now I get it. Sorry about that.

So back on topic, my young apprentice.

See, that's the thing, I have seen the light and left your evil grip within the GDF. With my passing I became more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

See, that's what happens when a Jedi master dies, proving that he can still be melodramatic and STAY ON TOPIC!

Well, it's just that I have certain principles. You have to have some to be a good Sith Lord you know.
Not many of them, but I do have them.

I suppose. Anyway, DREAGGING BACK ON TOPIC!!!

10,000 and that's my final bid!!!

Taken.

Now close this thread.

If it as anything like as hereditary as Anakin's kids indicate, there would be BUCKET loads more than 10,000! I think we can assume that Anakin's line is a one-off.

And I like my thread.

10,000 seems about right since GL has shown us so little of the galaxy.

OK, Ush, we can continue if you like?

So what do you think about a "no-marriage" clause or Jedi?

Is there any real indication in your storyboards that GL is going to actually use that?

Do I detect a slight notion of cynicism there? Hmmmm?

Me? cynical?..who'd have thought...

What real indication do we have that it's actually going to show up?..the no-marriage clause, that is.

What's the justifaction for the no marriage clause meant to be? It strikes me that Jedi would make better siblings than many...

In any case, Dark Side risk aside, the Jedi don't actually seem to enforce their code.

Say, how do people even get married in the Star Wars universe, there's no preacher...

Maybe a Jedi woudl do it or an official.

OK, so what inidcation do we have: simple. The idea of Jedi is clearly inspired by monks from either the east or the west. Shaolin Monks have been mentioned for instance. They don't marry, Anakin marrying Padme might be partly causing Anakin's fall and furthermore, there's that line from ROTJ: "The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring they would be a threat to him." Now it doesn't say that much, but IMHO it might indicate two things. One is that Palpy tried to prevent Anakin from getting married, OR.... that marriage was "not done" with Jedi. "If Anakin were to have...", sounds like it's rather unusual to have offspring for Jedi.

I realise the indications are slim, but there are some.

Ok, fair enough, though GL always takes in a more 'enlightened' version of his sources, so I'd be surprised if Jedi would be nasty enough to prevent marriage (and as I say, it wouldn';t be enforced)

And clealry I meant spouse rather than sibling in my earlier post.

Well, being a spouse might be the problem. How can a Jedi be a good spouse when he/she's out there, becoming one with the Force and defending peace an justice in the galaxy. Doesn't sound like a 9-5 job to me.

Actually Queeq, jedi are linked to the samurai of japan. They also have a code and protect the Imperacy.

Yes, I know. Partly, also on Shaolin Monks because of their religious aspects. Samurai were servant-warriors to the Emperor.

Certianly a very multi-cultural construct, the Jedi are. Samurai are the most clear comparison- but I tell you right now, you wouldn't want hordes of Samurai acting as protectors of the Republic! Altruism didn'tcome into it for the Samurai; serving their Lord was everything. More the sort of people the Empire would employ!

They are closest in philosophy (and indeed, fate) to the Shaolin, but they weren't active enough to make good heroes.

Yeah, Lucas certainly pulled asp[ects of various warrior and religious castes into the Jedi Knights.

Exactly. So that's why there can still be this "no marriage"-clause. But that's something we have to wait for and see. Or get some great spoilers.

Yeah, and I bet that's what he's going to do...considering that the information on Plo Koon having multiple wifes (I think he was the one) disappearing seems to point that way.

Those jedi are probably on to something you know...

What?..polygamy?.. Having a boy fantasy, RC?

I mean, assuming the husbands/wives know what they are getting when they marry one, a Jedi would make a great partner, wouldn't one?

Actually Dim, I was more talking about the NOT getting married bit. You women types are just TOO much stress to handle.

Especially when you have more than one.

I really wouldn't know about THAT... Suppose it's an everyday thing in Holland huh?

Is there something about Holland that you haven't told me, queeq?

Come over and I'll show you.

Actually, IIIII was on topic. Ki Adi Mundi supposedly having numerous wives? Remember? What were YOU thinking?

I don't know..it's all RC's fault.

So, it's safe to say that GL has pulled that..Nooooooo marriage. I wonder what Anakin's punishment will be.

A good spanking from old OB1 and then he turns to the Dark Side.