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Who would win?

Originally posted by mnat801
Who would win?

If you divide this into:

1) Sabers only fight
2) Force only fight
3) All Out

Then the duo probably wins 1. But in 2 & 3 Obi-Wan won't be a factor, so it really becomes Sidious vs Dooku.

Even in 1, I'd be interested to see what happens if Sidious goes Jar Kai on them like he does to Maul and Opress.

As soon as i saw "General" i thought it was Grevious. I was about to jump on DP for stupidly talking about Obi-Wan but now i see the the stupid one was me

Sidious blitzes Obi Wan and then overwhelms Dooku.

Edit: Also, Sidious can easily take Obi Wan out via TK. Either way, Kenobi is a non-factor.

S66 you really think Obi-Wan would be a non-factor in Sabers?

Yeah, basically.

Obi Wan is no match for Sidious's sheer speed (which comes from Sidious's power and command of the force). Three of the orders best were non-factors, why wouldn't Obi Wan be?

Obi-Wan is out of his league here, and Dooku isn't going to last long by himself.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, basically.

Obi Wan is no match for Sidious's sheer speed (which comes from Sidious's power and command of the force). Three of the orders best were non-factors, why wouldn't Obi Wan be?
I dunno; those three were all available to fight Grievous and weren't picked. So there's at least one factoid in Kenobi's favor.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kit Fisto already outdueled Grievous, so we already know that he is at least capable.

Actually he didn't. Fisto had to go Jar Kai just to match 3 of Grievous's blades. Whilst Obi-Wan defeated all 4 of his blades with just a single sword.

Have Obi-Wan go Jar Kai and we know he's in a totally different league challenging the Maul brothers together.

So I say based on that Kenobi >>> Fisto as a swordsman.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Regardless, even if Kenobi is a more skilled duelist then any one of those three, his speed is not so much ahead of theirs that he can handle Sidious's speed. Sidious blitzed Kolar and Tiin before any of them could react, and then blitzed Fisto about a second later. Kenobi wouldn't do much better, IMO.

He should since he's clearly a better swordsman than any of them. He's been called "The Master" of Soresu. Have any of those 3 been called the very best user of their particular form?

Plus there's the blocking 20 strikes per second, which does put his speed ahead of any of theirs too.

I honestly put Obi-Wan much closer to Dooku's level as a Swordsman than those 3 "celebrated" swordsmen.

Why is everyone putting so much emphasis on Jar'Kai as of late, with alternating interpretations that it's a technique of last resort or ultimate ace in the hole? Like every other facet of lightsaber combat, it comes with its inherent strengths and weaknesses.



So was Mace.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Why is everyone putting so much emphasis on Jar'Kai as of late, with alternating interpretations that it's a technique of last resort or ultimate ace in the hole? Like every other facet of lightsaber combat, it comes with its inherent strengths and weaknesses.

POWER has suggested that Jar'Kai is very good against 2 opponents/multiple lightsabers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
POWER has suggested that Jar'Kai is very good against 2 opponents/multiple lightsabers.

In that it enables them to potentially defend themselves from multiple angles, absolutely. But there's the issue of coordination and strength; Ventress deals in the Jar'Kai technique and has been beaten by singular foes and multiple ones.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually he didn't. Fisto had to go Jar Kai just to match 3 of Grievous's blades. Whilst Obi-Wan defeated all 4 of his blades with just a single sword.


What? You do realize that Fisto started out with a single saber while Grievous started out with four, right? Or did you actually forget how Kit ended up with the second saber?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Have Obi-Wan go Jar Kai and we know he's in a totally different league challenging the Maul brothers together.


Why do you keep assuming that having two sabers suddenly puts one on a whole different league?

And we actually need to know the entire circumstances of that fight before we can properly judge it. For all we know, Kenobi could have caught Savage off-guard. The fact that Savage is still a very unskilled opponent at that point, is not helping Kenobi's case here.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So I say based on that Kenobi >>> Fisto as a swordsman.


Don't go that far. Kenobi once lost to a Grievous who was only using two sabers. Let's actually compare some of Kenobi's fights against Grievous to Fisto's:


Rn7o_Cz9rVs

^ Here Grievous gets the better of Kenobi, and he only has two sabers.


VwRI07o952I

^Here Kenobi is having a lot of trouble with Grievous one on one, and is even disarmed of the electrostaff. This doesn't show the full fight, and I don't remember exactly how it played out, but it doesn't change the fact that Kenobi was clearly struggling.


7oGf-a1Dqlc

^ And then here is Kenobi's most famous fight with Grievous. And this is Kenobi after having a lot more experience with Grievous.


And now let's compare those fights to Fisto's only one on one fight with Grievous....


R-t9GlT9qmk

^ At no point does Grievous overpower Fisto, nor does he put Fisto at a disadvantage, until the magnaguards intervene. Fisto also seems to be fighting Grievous with a much calmer demeanor than ROTS Kenobi did, despite Fisto having no experience in fighting someone like Grievous.

Now I'm not saying Fisto is a superior swordsman than Kenobi (although Obi Wan seems to think so). I'm saying they seem a lot closer than you believe.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He should since he's clearly a better swordsman than any of them. He's been called "The Master" of Soresu. Have any of those 3 been called the very best user of their particular form?


That's irrelevent. Sidious has never been called the "very best of any particular form" either.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Plus there's the blocking 20 strikes per second, which does put his speed ahead of any of theirs too.


Those 20 strikes per second came from the very same Grievous whom Kit also outdueled.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I honestly put Obi-Wan much closer to Dooku's level as a Swordsman than those 3 "celebrated" swordsmen.

I wouldn't.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I honestly put Obi-Wan much closer to Dooku's level as a Swordsman than those 3 "celebrated" swordsmen.

Palpatine sweeps. Honestly, I can't see Obi-Wan hanging that long even in sabers. And Dooku isn't taking Sids out by himself.

Although I do believe Sideous would come out on top, I dont think Obi Wan would immediately be a non-factor.

Remember he is arguably the 3rd best jedi in the clone wars era, and he taught the jedi who defeated Dooku.

I'd say with teamwork, it could be a close fight with sideous eventually winning.

I made this thread in relation with the moment where dooku asked obi wan to join him to destroy the sith.

But of course thats my opinion.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Why is everyone putting so much emphasis on Jar'Kai as of late, with alternating interpretations that it's a technique of last resort or ultimate ace in the hole? Like every other facet of lightsaber combat, it comes with its inherent strengths and weaknesses.



Originally posted by Nephthys
POWER has suggested that Jar'Kai is very good against 2 opponents/multiple lightsabers.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
In that it enables them to potentially defend themselves from multiple angles, absolutely. But there's the issue of coordination and strength; Ventress deals in the Jar'Kai technique and has been beaten by singular foes and multiple ones.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


Why do you keep assuming that having two sabers suddenly puts one on a whole different league?




What I've been suggesting is using 2 Sabers certainly helps against multiple lightsaber wielding opponents, or against an opponent capable of wielding 3/4 lightsabers.

It would be a little strange to deny that, unless you all think Ventress could have fought Anakin and Obi-Wan together with a single Saber. Or that Obi-Wan could have challenged Maul and Savage with a single one.

There is a reason Obi-Wan used 2 Sabers to fight them both. Same reason Fisto went Jar Kai on Grievous the second he got the chance. Because it obviously increased their chances in those combat situations.

As for Jar Kai having it's advantages and disadvantages against a single opponent, well yes it's a different fighting style that may prove to be more advantageous against certain combat styles but has it's disadvantages as well.

However since the person wielding 2 Sabers can always switch back to 1 (or be forced to if he gets disarmed of 1 blade), I would overall call it a definite advantage as long as the wielder is adept in both single and dual lightsaber combat.

Jar Kai doesn't offer an overall greater advantage against multiple foes than a single-bladed lightsaber.

The only advantage you gain by using two lightsabers is that you can defend from more angles than you normally would. What you give up is that you lose range of motion, you can't put as much force behind each strike because you're holding each blade with a one handed grip instead of gripping one blade with two hands, which also means that it would be easier for an opponent to knock a blade out of your hand with a powerful strike. As well, because you're holding each blade with one hand, you have to rely on using your forearms and wrists to generate momentum for each strike, compared to being able to use your entire body when swinging with one sword, which results in your attacks being slower and less controlled.

There is a reason why fighting with only one blade has historically been the preferred way of dueling- simply put, fighting with two swords is extremely impractical, regardless of how many people you're fighting.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What? You do realize that Fisto started out with a single saber while Grievous started out with four, right? Or did you actually forget how Kit ended up with the second saber?

I'm surprised your saying this when you've posted the video yourself.

He never fought off all 4 of Grievous's blade. The fight starts with him getting into a saber lock then quickly hiding in the mist. He then tries to take Grievous from behind, fails but ends up in 1 more Saber lock.

Then Grievous gloats, attacks with JUST ONE SWORD and that's when he cuts it.

He never once actually fought off all 4 of Grievous's arms. Best he did was match 3 of his arms wielding 2 Lightsabers himself.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Why do you keep assuming that having two sabers suddenly puts one on a whole different league?

See above. You don't really think Grievous wielding 1 Saber would be just as formidable as a Grievous wielding 4 do you??

And there is a reason Fisto went Jar Kai on him the second he got the chance.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And we actually need to know the entire circumstances of that fight before we can properly judge it. For all we know, Kenobi could have caught Savage off-guard. The fact that Savage is still a very unskilled opponent at that point, is not helping Kenobi's case here.

I'm not talking about the cutting of Opress's arm. I'm suggesting even challenging those 2 together is well out of Fisto's league.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Don't go that far. Kenobi once lost to a Grievous who was only using two sabers.

^ Here Grievous gets the better of Kenobi, and he only has two sabers.


That was actually quite early in the clone wars. And it seemed to me he hit Kenobi by surprise with one of his free arms. I doubt Kenobi would fall for that if GG was clearly wielding a lightsaber with that arm given how their other fights have gone.

And I wouldn't go as far as saying he actually lost that fight. He won via a force push, but who knows, if he didn't use the force he may have still evaded Grievous's killing strike.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
^Here Kenobi is having a lot of trouble with Grievous one on one, and is even disarmed of the electrostaff. This doesn't show the full fight, and I don't remember exactly how it played out, but it doesn't change the fact that Kenobi was clearly struggling.

You do realise in this fight he actually fought off and stalemated all 4 of Grievous's blades right? And that in an enclosed space as well. At one point he was backed up against the wall. He defeated him with a force push.

Again Fisto has never fought off all 4 of Grievous's blades. Best he could do was match 3 of his Blades by going Jar Kai on him.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
^ And then here is Kenobi's most famous fight with Grievous. And this is Kenobi after having a lot more experience with Grievous.

Yes in a more open space he stomped against all 4 of GG's swords. Fisto has never done this. So he's clearly never defended against 20 strikes per second.

So looking at that feat of Kenobi's plus his challenging of Maul and Opress together, it's quite obvious to me that Kenobi is well above Fisto as a swordsman.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's irrelevent. Sidious has never been called the "very best of any particular form" either.

He's uses Juyo which is the deadliest form, hardest to master and automatically makes him a high level master of multiple other forms.

Also do you know of a better user of Juyo?

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Jar Kai doesn't offer an overall greater advantage against multiple foes than a single-bladed lightsaber.

The only advantage you gain by using two lightsabers is that you can defend from more angles than you normally would. What you give up is that you lose range of motion, you can't put as much force behind each strike because you're holding each blade with a one handed grip instead of gripping one blade with two hands, which also means that it would be easier for an opponent to knock a blade out of your hand with a powerful strike. As well, because you're holding each blade with one hand, you have to rely on using your forearms and wrists to generate momentum for each strike, compared to being able to use your entire body when swinging with one sword, which results in your attacks being slower and less controlled.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER


However since the person wielding 2 Sabers can always switch back to 1 (or be forced to if he gets disarmed of 1 blade), I would overall call it a definite advantage as long as the wielder is adept in both single and dual lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
There is a reason why fighting with only one blade has historically been the preferred way of dueling- simply put, fighting with two swords is extremely impractical, regardless of how many people you're fighting.

Historically you mean on Earth, or by the Jedi? On Earth Swords are quite heavy so it would be pretty damn difficult to wield 2. Whilst wielding 2 Lightsabers especially with force enhanced strength would be much easier.

As for the Jedi, they probably frown upon carrying more than one weapon. Wouldn't be very Jedi like to be carrying like 4 weapons.

That's probably why it tends to be used more by Sith/Dark Jedi to wield more than one blade.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What? You do realize that Fisto started out with a single saber while Grievous started out with four, right? Or did you actually forget how Kit ended up with the second saber?




Why do you keep assuming that having two sabers suddenly puts one on a whole different league?

And we actually need to know the entire circumstances of that fight before we can properly judge it. For all we know, Kenobi could have caught Savage off-guard. The fact that Savage is still a very unskilled opponent at that point, is not helping Kenobi's case here.





Don't go that far. Kenobi once lost to a Grievous who was only using two sabers. Let's actually compare some of Kenobi's fights against Grievous to Fisto's:


Rn7o_Cz9rVs

^ Here Grievous gets the better of Kenobi, and he only has two sabers.

the fight didnt finish there bud.


VwRI07o952I

^Here Kenobi is having a lot of trouble with Grievous one on one, and is even disarmed of the electrostaff. This doesn't show the full fight, and I don't remember exactly how it played out, but it doesn't change the fact that Kenobi was clearly struggling.

how does one kick to the body summarise the fact that kenobi was clearly struggling?


7oGf-a1Dqlc

^ And then here is Kenobi's most famous fight with Grievous. And this is Kenobi after having a lot more experience with Grievous.


And now let's compare those fights to Fisto's only one on one fight with Grievous....


R-t9GlT9qmk

^ At no point does Grievous overpower Fisto, nor does he put Fisto at a disadvantage, until the magnaguards intervene. Fisto also seems to be fighting Grievous with a much calmer demeanor than ROTS Kenobi did, despite Fisto having no experience in fighting someone like Grievous.

Now I'm not saying Fisto is a superior swordsman than Kenobi (although Obi Wan seems to think so). I'm saying they seem a lot closer than you believe.





That's irrelevent. Sidious has never been called the "very best of any particular form" either.





Those 20 strikes per second came from the very same Grievous whom Kit also outdueled.




I wouldn't.

Dropping your second weapon to use one doesn't mean using two is an advantage. That means using two sucks so you switch to using one.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Historically you mean on Earth, or by the Jedi? On Earth Swords are quite heavy so it would be pretty damn difficult to wield 2. Whilst wielding 2 Lightsabers especially with force enhanced strength would be much easier.
Doesn't really matter. Lightsabers aren't weightless, so wielding one lightsaber with one hand would still take more energy than wielding one with two hands, thus, someone wielding a single lightsaber will be able to strike faster and harder than someone with two.

Yeah, I'm with Tzeentch.: still not buying the idea that Jar'Kai is the end-all-be-all/form of last resort.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, basically.

Obi Wan is no match for Sidious's sheer speed (which comes from Sidious's power and command of the force). Three of the orders best were non-factors, why wouldn't Obi Wan be?

Ummm because he has a style specifically made to beat Sidious or anybody in sabers. Because via novelization.. General G has a faster saber strike count than Sids or anybody and that could penetrate Obi's defenses. The fact is, Kenobi has a chance against anybody in sabers thanks to his style.. especially if he goes saiyan like against The General. Sids isn't walking over him. All out.. sure.. in sabers no. Let's not forget.. you mention the blitz sids used against the jedi coming to arrest him. A bit of pis considering Mace beat him in sabers and yoda beat him in sabers. So clearly he's not fast enough to beat two jedi masters one v one.. yet you believe he could beat this one so easily. Nah, don't buy it.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm because he has a style specifically made to beat Sidious or anybody in sabers. Because via novelization.. General G has a faster saber strike count than Sids or anybody and that could penetrate Obi's defenses.

Where does it state that GG "has a faster saber strike count" than anyone else? It doesn't. That's just goofy. Besides that, Mace Windu had bladework describes as appearing as dozens (DOZENS, which is more than 20) of blades attacking from every direction. Sidious is nearly as fast, maybe equally so. Yoda was described as a blur of destruction.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Dropping your second weapon to use one doesn't mean using two is an advantage. That means using two sucks so you switch to using one.

No it means they can take advantage of the advantages Jar Kai offers- simultaneous attack and defense, or 2 simultaneous attacks. But if the disadvantages are getting to them they can always switch back to 1. But in practice no one using Jar Kai has chosen to put one away, so I'm guessing it must be more advantageous.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Doesn't really matter. Lightsabers aren't weightless, so wielding one lightsaber with one hand would still take more energy than wielding one with two hands, thus, someone wielding a single lightsaber will be able to strike faster and harder than someone with two.

So these guys should drop one of their sticks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQltqe2FFcE&feature=related

And you wouldn't get more speed from 2 hands, you can actually get more speed with both your hands seperate. You will get less strength behind the attacks though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, I'm with Tzeentch.: still not buying the idea that Jar'Kai is the end-all-be-all/form of last resort.


So you honestly think Ventress would have done just as well fighting both Anakin and Obi-Wan together with a single saber.

When Obi-Wan is up for the fight of his life against Opress and Maul together why do you think he specifically chooses to use 2 Sabers?

Also why does Obi-Wan throw Anakin the second Saber in AOTC if it doesn't help??

At the very least it's a different fighting style that has it's advantages. If your still losing using it you can always switch back to 1.

Ventress can change between Dual Sabers, a Saber staff and a Single Saber. If she's well versed in all those fighting forms, that can only be advantageous, especially the fact that she can switch from one form to another.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Where does it state that GG "has a faster saber strike count" than anyone else? It doesn't. That's just goofy. Besides that, Mace Windu had bladework describes as appearing as dozens (DOZENS, which is more than 20) of blades attacking from every direction. Sidious is nearly as fast, maybe equally so. Yoda was described as a blur of destruction.

Just like what 20 strikes per second would look like. Can I see any narration that describes a faster count please.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Just like what 20 strikes per second would look like. Can I see any narration that describes a faster count please.



KT, the burden of proof is on you. You made a claim, now back it up. Provide a quote from canon material that states that GG's strikes are the fastest in the SW mythos. And BTW; dozens, being at minimum a 2x multiple of 12 and therefore at LEAST 24, is greater than 20.

POWER, for reasons already provided by myself and Tzeentch., I'm not buying it.

Sidious is apparently a master or proficient user of Jar'Kai and didn't utilize it against Mace and company; Dooku trained Komari Vosa and Asajj Ventress, two Jar'Kai wielders, and didn't make use of the technique against his multiple foes; I'm sure there are other examples.

There's no evidence to suggest it's an inherently superior method for dealing with multiple foes, let alone being an inherently superior form period.

The 20 strikes a second thing is o8vious 8ullshit.

Grievous doesn't even attack 20 times in the entire fight, certainly not before Keno8i gets one of his hands.

At 8est its referring to when he was spinning his sa8ers around.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm because he has a style specifically made to beat Sidious or anybody in sabers.


Sidious' raw force power probably exceeds every force user of that time except for Yoda (not including Anakin because he had yet to tap even half of his full powers), and his command of that power is such that it enables him to inhance his speed to such a degree that he can quickly overcome any force user except Yoda and an amped Mace Windu. Obi Wan's style is irrelevent; he doesn't have it in him to contend with the speed of Sidious. His best bet would be to try and flee, or he gets cut down.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Because via novelization.. General G has a faster saber strike count than Sids or anybody and that could penetrate Obi's defenses.


Really? So how come Kit Fisto comfortably walked all over him, despite Fisto having no prior experience in fighting someone like him, whereas Fisto was quickly killed by Sidious right after Sidious had just downed two other masters?


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The fact is, Kenobi has a chance against anybody in sabers thanks to his style.. especially if he goes saiyan like against The General. Sids isn't walking over him. All out.. sure.. in sabers no.


Sidious will walk all over Kenobi in sabers, force, and all-out.

It can be argued that Obi Wan is a superior duelist than Fisto (although it's still arguable), but to argue that he is so far above Fisto to where he can be a factor to Sidious, whereas Fisto plus two other gifted duelists are not, is kinda silly.

And you are not considering that style has nothing to do with matching Sidious in speed


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Let's not forget.. you mention the blitz sids used against the jedi coming to arrest him. A bit of pis considering Mace beat him in sabers and yoda beat him in sabers. So clearly he's not fast enough to beat two jedi masters one v one.. yet you believe he could beat this one so easily.


Sorry, but you can't just dismiss feats that you don't like, especially when Sidious' speed feats have been pretty consistent (Plagueis novel, Dark Empire, and some of Maul's novel's). Lucas has also went out of his way to emphasize that Mace's B-Team were non-factors, stating that you have to be either Yoda, Windu, or Anakin, if Anakin didn't get injured (referring to full potential). And if we consider the EU's explanation, Windu only equaled Sidious in speed because he recieved a boost from Sidious's darkness.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Nah, don't buy it.


Well, ok.

There is absolutely nothing anywhere in the mythos- no piece of evidence, no logical argument that could be made, that could even imply that Fisto is on Kenobi's level of dueling prowess.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
There is absolutely nothing anywhere in the mythos- no piece of evidence, no logical argument that could be made, that could even imply that Fisto is on Kenobi's level of dueling prowess.



Thank You!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


Really? So how come Kit Fisto comfortably walked all over him, despite Fisto having no prior experience in fighting someone like him, whereas Fisto was quickly killed by Sidious right after Sidious had just downed two other masters?



S66 I've already explained to you Fisto never fought all 4 of Grievous's swords. And he certainly didn't walk all over him. Best he did was match 3 of his Sabers using 2 himself. (You can argue Jar Kai gives no advantage like Tempest and Tzeentch are doing, but doesn't change the fact the best Fisto did was evenly match 3 of GG's blades.)

So stop repeating this argument.

Fisto's no match for Ventress, and he would certainly never ever be a match for Maul and Opress. Not even close.

Kenobi >>> Fisto as a Swordsman. Honestly it's not even comparable.



Sorry for triple post. Just read this comment late.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Thank You!

He's being sarcastic DP. One only has to read the Cestus Deception for such a quote. Yes, the same book where Fisto as well as Kenobi lose to Ventress. However, the book describes Fisto as nearly overwhelming her and coming across as doing better against her as compared to Kenobi.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
He's being sarcastic DP. One only has to read the Cestus Deception for such a quote. Yes, the same book where Fisto as well as Kenobi lose to Ventress. However, the book describes Fisto as nearly overwhelming her and coming across as doing better against her as compared to Kenobi.

I don't think he is being sarcastic. I've heard him say Obi-Wan's one of the best duelists in the PT.

And Obi-Wan already beat Ventress in the CW movie. Fisto hasn't. Kenobi has out performed a Grievous wielding 4 Sabers. Best Fisto has done is match 3 of his Sabers.

Now Obi-Wan's going to defeat Opress and even challenge Maul and Opress together clearly putting him above Ventress and well above Fisto.

Not even a comparison now Imho.



Oh and Tempest.. More evidence of the advantage of Dual Sabers- Kas'im was losing to Bane but then defeated in him in Sabers when he switched to Jar Kai. Bane then killed him with a the Force.

I've yet to see anyone provide examples of where someone was clearly worse off after switching to Jar Kai.

Kas'im's near victory owed entirely to the fact that Bane was simply unfamiliar with the technique. That is to say, the only advantage it afforded Kas'im was an element of surprise.

Arguing that Obi-Wan is substantially greater than Kit is really baseless. Kit hasn't been given as much exposure, but we can compare their respective performances against Grievous and Kit fared better than Obi-Wan against the general, without the benefit of Obi-Wan's expertise and experience on all things Grievous. This idea that all the main characters are somehow more powerful, more skilled, or whatnot than the tertiary characters simply by virtue of more exposure is bewildering. Kit might not have a surplus of feats or quotes with which to compare, but I think we have enough to reasonably conclude that if a gap exists between he and Obi-Wan, it's not a chasm.

POWER, weeks ago you wished to table all discussions on Sidious's smackdown of Maul and Savage because we haven't actually seen the fight yet. Since by all accounts (that I've heard), Obi-Wan's victory is context specific and we haven't seen it, I'm curious why you're openly discussing it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Kas'im's near victory owed entirely to the fact that Bane was simply unfamiliar with the technique. That is to say, the only advantage it afforded Kas'im was an element of surprise.

Which is why I've already said this:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


As for Jar Kai having it's advantages and disadvantages against a single opponent, well yes it's a different fighting style that may prove to be more advantageous against certain combat styles but has it's disadvantages as well.

However since the person wielding 2 Sabers can always switch back to 1 (or be forced to if he gets disarmed of 1 blade), I would overall call it a definite advantage as long as the wielder is adept in both single and dual lightsaber combat.


And this:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Ventress can change between Dual Sabers, a Saber staff and a Single Saber. If she's well versed in all those fighting forms, that can only be advantageous, especially the fact that she can switch from one form to another.

Plus there's Exar Kun defeating his master after picking up a second Saber. Plus there's loads of other hints like Obi-Wan throwing Anakin a second Saber in AOTC presumably to help him.

And then there's Ventress taking on both Anakin and Obi-Wan using Jar Kai on multiple occasions even though she's hardly a match for each one individually. So the advantage of lasting longer against multiple opponents at least is obviously there.

And like I said nobody's provided examples, evidence pointing the other way.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
Arguing that Obi-Wan is substantially greater than Kit is really baseless. Kit hasn't been given as much exposure, but we can compare their respective performances against Grievous and Kit fared better than Obi-Wan against the general, without the benefit of Obi-Wan's expertise and experience on all things Grievous. This idea that all the main characters are somehow more powerful, more skilled, or whatnot than the tertiary characters simply by virtue of more exposure is bewildering. Kit might not have a surplus of feats or quotes with which to compare, but I think we have enough to reasonably conclude that if a gap exists between he and Obi-Wan, it's not a chasm.

See above discussion. I think I've provided enough evidence of Kenobi being substantially above Fisto and having performed much better against Grievous.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
POWER, weeks ago you wished to table all discussions on Sidious's smackdown of Maul and Savage because we haven't actually seen the fight yet. Since by all accounts (that I've heard), Obi-Wan's victory is context specific and we haven't seen it, I'm curious why you're openly discussing it.

I don't think I initiated those discussions, but we were basing it on the preview we saw of the novel. (And so far the novel seems to be bang on correct.)

Ok I'll save the Obi-Wan vs Maul and Opress until we've seen it. I just don't think Fisto is in any sort of league to initiate a duel like that in any circumstance. Ventress? Possibly.

Oh and I have seen the first 2 seconds of the fight in the promo

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWdQEVVPgL0

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious' raw force power probably exceeds every force user of that time except for Yoda (not including Anakin because he had yet to tap even half of his full powers), and his command of that power is such that it enables him to inhance his speed to such a degree that he can quickly overcome any force user except Yoda and an amped Mace Windu. Obi Wan's style is irrelevent; he doesn't have it in him to contend with the speed of Sidious. His best bet would be to try and flee, or he gets cut down.





Really? So how come Kit Fisto comfortably walked all over him, despite Fisto having no prior experience in fighting someone like him, whereas Fisto was quickly killed by Sidious right after Sidious had just downed two other masters?





Sidious will walk all over Kenobi in sabers, force, and all-out.

It can be argued that Obi Wan is a superior duelist than Fisto (although it's still arguable), but to argue that he is so far above Fisto to where he can be a factor to Sidious, whereas Fisto plus two other gifted duelists are not, is kinda silly.

And you are not considering that style has nothing to do with matching Sidious in speed





Sorry, but you can't just dismiss feats that you don't like, especially when Sidious' speed feats have been pretty consistent (Plagueis novel, Dark Empire, and some of Maul's novel's). Lucas has also went out of his way to emphasize that Mace's B-Team were non-factors, stating that you have to be either Yoda, Windu, or Anakin, if Anakin didn't get injured (referring to full potential). And if we consider the EU's explanation, Windu only equaled Sidious in speed because he recieved a boost from Sidious's darkness.





Well, ok.

How are you even comparing Fisto to Kenobi... Kenobi has consistently outperformed Kenobi over and over again. There is really not much to compare imo I don't see fisto beating maul, ventress, or anakin.

Nobody is questioning Sids has speed... but remember BEFORE Windu was tapping into Vaaped.. he was still blocking Sids strikes and defending himself. Kenobi's defense >= to Windu's. So how can Windu deal with Sids, as well as yoda, but the master of the most defensive form can't? you jest.. surely you jest. Point is, Sids WOULDN'T walk all over Kenobi in a dual. All out, no disagreement there.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which is why I've already said this:




And this:



Plus there's Exar Kun defeating his master after picking up a second Saber. Plus there's loads of other hints like Obi-Wan throwing Anakin a second Saber in AOTC presumably to help him.

And then there's Ventress taking on both Anakin and Obi-Wan using Jar Kai on multiple occasions even though she's hardly a match for each one individually. So the advantage of lasting longer against multiple opponents at least is obviously there.

And like I said nobody's provided examples, evidence pointing the other way.




See above discussion. I think I've provided enough evidence of Kenobi being substantially above Fisto and having performed much better against Grievous.



I don't think I initiated those discussions, but we were basing it on the preview we saw of the novel. (And so far the novel seems to be bang on correct.)

Ok I'll save the Obi-Wan vs Maul and Opress until we've seen it. I just don't think Fisto is in any sort of league to initiate a duel like that in any circumstance. Ventress? Possibly.

Oh and I have seen the first 2 seconds of the fight in the promo

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWdQEVVPgL0

Which novel... I guess i'm behind or something. BTW how wa the plaguis novel?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
S66 I've already explained to you Fisto never fought all 4 of Grievous's swords. And he certainly didn't walk all over him. Best he did was match 3 of his Sabers using 2 himself. (You can argue Jar Kai gives no advantage like Tempest and Tzeentch are doing, but doesn't change the fact the best Fisto did was evenly match 3 of GG's blades.)


Evenly match Grievous? Did we watch the same fight? Fisto was all over Grievous, forcing him back the entire fight. Compare that to ROTS Obi Wan being forced back during his duel with Grievous, waiting for an opening to disarm him of his sabers one at a time.

Also, stop with your "Fisto needed two sabers to match Grievous's three sabers." That's almost like me saying Obi Wan needed a powerful force push to match Grievous two sabers. Grievous didn't kindly hand Fisto a second saber in order to make it more fair, Fisto took it from him in the middle of a duel. If you want to try to lowball Fisto, I can point out the times that Kenobi was put on his ass by Grievous, either through a kick or from being ragdolled with one hand, whereas Grievous was not fast enough to do the same to Fisto, and if he was, I'm pretty sure he would have to at least gain an advantage.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi >>> Fisto as a Swordsman. Honestly it's not even comparable.


Just stop, DP. Sidious can blitz masters before they can react. Obi Wan is not lasting long against him at all. You can argue about Obi Wan being better than Kit all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that Sidious's speed is just too much for Kenobi to handle.


Originally posted by Tzeentch._
There is absolutely nothing anywhere in the mythos- no piece of evidence, no logical argument that could be made, that could even imply that Fisto is on Kenobi's level of dueling prowess.


As Tempest said, if we compare their duels with Grievous, then it's pretty safe to conclude that they are at least pretty close. Kit did just as well against Grievous as ROTS Obi Wan did (though I'd argue he did a little better), despite having no experience with someone like Grievous. Also, as JT brought out, there is supposedly a quote in Cestus Deception about Kit being more skilled than Obi Wan. Though I believe the quote came from Kenobi's musings on their sparring matches with eachother. IDK, I haven't read it.

There is, however, absolutely no logical argument that can be made for Obi Wan being so far ahead of Fist to where he can provide a challenge to Sidious, whereas Fisto + two other swordsmasters could not. Even if Obi Wan is an overall better duelist than Kit, there is still not much of a speed difference between the two.

If Sidious blitzed Maul or even Savage I could see why some would believe Kenobi would be blitzed by Sidious... But he didn't.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
There is absolutely nothing anywhere in the mythos- no piece of evidence, no logical argument that could be made, that could even imply that Fisto is on Kenobi's level of dueling prowess.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which novel... I guess i'm behind or something. BTW how wa the plaguis novel?

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy. It's not actually out yet, but some of us have seen previews of some of the passages. It's based on a 4 episode arc of clone wars season 5.

The dialogue and action from the Maul vs Opress fight was pretty much the same as it is in the episode.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Evenly match Grievous? Did we watch the same fight? Fisto was all over Grievous, forcing him back the entire fight. Compare that to ROTS Obi Wan being forced back during his duel with Grievous, waiting for an opening to disarm him of his sabers one at a time.

Yeah except Kenobi was out performing all 4 of Grievous's arms. Fisto was matching 3. There was nothing to suggest Fisto was winning that saber duel. He was Only shown to be superior with the aid of a force push.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, stop with your "Fisto needed two sabers to match Grievous's three sabers." That's almost like me saying Obi Wan needed a powerful force push to match Grievous two sabers.

Not really. Especially not since Fisto also resorted to a force push. If you don't think effectively wielding a 2nd Saber will help in the slightest against an opponent whose effectively wielding 3 or 4 Sabers, then I really don't know what else to say except that would mean Grievous with 1 Saber = Grievous with 4 Sabers???

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Grievous didn't kindly hand Fisto a second saber in order to make it more fair, Fisto took it from him in the middle of a duel. If you want to try to lowball Fisto, I can point out the times that Kenobi was put on his ass by Grievous, either through a kick or from being ragdolled with one hand, whereas Grievous was not fast enough to do the same to Fisto, and if he was, I'm pretty sure he would have to at least gain an advantage.

Lol it's not lowballing Fisto. He was the one hiding in the mist when Grievous was wielding 4 Sabers. I don't remember Kenobi hiding from Grievous and attempting to strike him from behind.

Fact is he never fought a 4 Saber wiedling Grievous, and he only managed to chop off one arm due to serious CIS on Grievous's part. He was chatting away, gloating, and only attacked with the one arm.

He's certainly never defended against 20 strikes per second, which also shows Kenobi's superior speed which you keep denying.

When Fisto is called the Master of any particularly lethal Saber form then compare him and Kneobi.

Not to mention Kenobi's feats of defeating Anakin, Ventress and (I'll wait 10 days before I include Opress) are way beyond anything we've seen from Fisto.

In fact we flat out know that Fisto < Ventress.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just stop, DP. Sidious can blitz masters before they can react. Obi Wan is not lasting long against him at all. You can argue about Obi Wan being better than Kit all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that Sidious's speed is just too much for Kenobi to handle.



What are you talking about? I've not even argued Kenobi vs Sidious yet. That's kind of pointless while people are comparing Kenobi to Fisto.

But remember this thread isn't Kenobi vs Sidious. It's Kenobi and Dooku vs Sidious.

And Kurupt Thanosi makes a good point, that if Windu before being fully submerged into Vapaad can defend against Sidious's strikes, then why should we assume The Master of Soresu could not? Especially while fighting alongside The Master of Makashi.

Plus Kenobi's feats of defeating Anakin, Ventress and (I'll wait 10 days before I include Opress) are way beyond anything we've seen from Fisto.

In fact we flat out know that Fisto < Ventress.

Originally posted by ares834
If Sidious blitzed Maul or even Savage I could see why some would believe Kenobi would be blitzed by Sidious... But he didn't.


So because he didn't do it to Maul and Savage, means that he can't do it to Obi Wan, despite the fact that he has done it to three swordsmasters (at least one of whom is on Kenobi's level of speed)? Are we to ignore Palpatine's speed feat in ROTS just because he did not utilize his top speed during his duel with Maul and Savage?

Give me evidents that Obi Wan is fast enough to provide even some what of a challenge to someone who can blitz three swordsmasters in seconds, and I will accept that.

Also, if Kenobi is so far ahead of Kit in speed, then why was he floored by Grievous on a couple of occasions? Whether or not Kenobi has a better style of defense than Fisto, he still lacks the speed to provide a challenge to Palpatine, which is basically what is being claimed in this thread, something which no one has provided any evidents for.

Sids... who is better at defending against strikes Mace or Kenobi or are they about even? I personally believe Kenobi is EVER good at defense if not better than Mace. ANd I believe mace has even said as much. So if Mace can defend against Sids BEFORE getting immersed in Vapaad... Why couldn't Kenobi long enough for ANOTHER Jedi master to attack and beat Sids? Kenobi is built for a fight like this...

@ Ares, I just noticed that I'm calling you out on something that you didn't even make a claim about. My bad.

I'm still curious on why you think Obi Wan could avoid being blitzed by Sidious though.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Sids... who is better at defending against strikes Mace or Kenobi or are they about even? I personally believe Kenobi is EVER good at defense if not better than Mace. ANd I believe mace has even said as much. So if Mace can defend against Sids BEFORE getting immersed in Vapaad... Why couldn't Kenobi long enough for ANOTHER Jedi master to attack and beat Sids? Kenobi is built for a fight like this...


Kenobi's lightsaber form is a better form for defense than Mace's lightsaber form, but that does not mean Kenobi can react to Sidious's speed better than Mace can, especially when Mace is faster than Kenobi. Sidious blitzed two masters before before they could REACT, which barely gave Mace and Kit enough time to react themselves, and Mace enough time to get vapaad in effect. Before Mace was fully submerged in vapaad, he was on the verge of being overpowered.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


He's certainly never defended against 20 strikes per second, which also shows Kenobi's superior speed which you keep denying.



Neither did Kenobi according to the highest form of canon. Like Nepthys reported: Originally posted by Nephthys
The 20 strikes a second thing is o8vious 8ullshit.

Grievous doesn't even attack 20 times in the entire fight, certainly not before Keno8i gets one of his hands.

At 8est its referring to when he was spinning his sa8ers around.

I'm hesitant to use that as evidence. If we apply such a strict standard to what we see in the films, all of Mace's EU feats are tossed aside because they're contradicted by the incredibly amateurish performance he gave while fighting Sidious.

That isn't a direct contradiction though. The number of strikes is fact. It directly contradicts what happened. How impressive the fight was is subjective and can be explained by the aging actors.

As someone who works in the industry, I can tell you that films are basically a form of theatre, it's all interpretation and its all a performance. The actors and the sets etc all do a good job of presenting an image but it is still up to the audeince to take form it what they will. The book has every right to its interpretation of 20 strieks a second, and it really oputs int perspective how great obi's sroesus is.,

Not a direct contradiction? Mace shows literally nothing of the superhuman physique, skill, and power he displays in the EU (or even in AOTC, what with his Force-powered leap from Dooku's balcony to the arena floor) in what is easily the most important fight of his life. He fights like a middle aged black man; taken literally, that's exactly the case because nothing on Mace's side was altered in post-production for the duel (even Sidious, who is almost equally underwhelming here, uses the Force no less than 3 times during their fight).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not a direct contradiction? Mace shows literally nothing of the superhuman physique, skill, and power he displays in the EU (or even in AOTC, what with his Force-powered leap from Dooku's balcony to the arena floor) in what is easily the most important fight of his life. He fights like a middle aged black man; taken literally, that's exactly the case because nothing on Mace's side was altered in post-production for the duel (even Sidious, who is almost equally underwhelming here, uses the Force no less than 3 times during their fight).

As I recall Leland Chee has spoken directly about this and said that the capabilities of the Jedi in the movies isn't a contradiction to the rest of the EU.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I recall Leland Chee has spoken directly about this and said that the capabilities of the Jedi in the movies isn't a contradiction to the rest of the EU.

Exactly. There are limitations and creative differences across disparate mediums. The ROTS novel was line-edited by George and we can assume from his close involvement with both television series that he clearly didn't mean for people to think Mace was nothing other than a 55-year-old black guy swinging a glowstick around bizarrely, so I don't see why we should be so strict.

This is the same guy whose script for ROTJ called for a "vast rebel fleet" that stretched "as far as the eye could see" yet, on screen, that description only applies if the audience in question has no idea what the word "vast" means and suffers from a severe case of cataracts.

To be fair, I don't think george intended for all jedis to be able to withstand the effects of old age. Yoda was an exception more than the rule. A human Jedi of Mace Windu's age usually wouldn;t expect to be any faster than he was on screen, I don't think. And he wasn't that bad when it came to swordplay bro. he was trained by Nick Gillard personally and the scene was only given the greenlight until it met his approval.

Of course they wanted an actual stuntman to do it but SLJ was extremely difficult and a real diva on stage, and a bit of a nuisance really and none of the other cast even talk to him any more. he demanded different color lightsaber, that he beat sidious in theuir fight and that she get to do his own stunts or he would not appear in the film. And because george had built him up into the second in lind the the jedi council grandmaster he didn;t think he'd ba able to kill him off off screen so he had to accept htme.

So while mace windu didn;t look like a real master swordsman he still didn;t look too bad. but spped wise, i dont think he was ever itnendted to be that fats, or fatse tthan anyone that age.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Exactly. There are limitations and creative differences across disparate mediums.

Which is why we have rules about contradictions 8etween them. :I

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The ROTS novel was line-edited by George and we can assume from his close involvement with both television series that he clearly didn't mean for people to think Mace was nothing other than a 55-year-old black guy swinging a glowstick around bizarrely, so I don't see why we should be so strict.

We shouldn't.

In that case. :::;]

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is the same guy whose script for ROTJ called for a "vast rebel fleet" that stretched "as far as the eye could see" yet, on screen, that description only applies if the audience in question has no idea what the word "vast" means and suffers from a severe case of cataracts.

Well in that case the movie takes precedence, because that's a direct contradiction, just like the number of strikes Grievous did pretty directly contradicts that he was overloading Kenobi's defenses with 20 strikes a second.

Rules Lawyer AWAAAAAY!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is why we have rules about contradictions 8etween them. :I



We shouldn't.

In that case. :::;]



Well in that case the movie takes precedence, because that's a direct contradiction, just like the number of strikes Grievous did pretty directly contradicts that he was overloading Kenobi's defenses with 20 strikes a second.

Rules Lawyer AWAAAAAY!!!!!!!!

All are cases of direct contradiction and would all, therefore, fail application of your enormously uptight standards.

You, sir, fail as a rules lawyer.

The defense rests.*
















*with your mother, sexually

Victory belongs to the Tempest!



V for Victory!
V for Peace!

L for Loser!

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/189/407/vriska_serket_by_bluebelle01-d2yea4k.png

Concession accepted.

That, sir, is not an L but is in fact a less-than sign.

I accept your concession and move to strike.*






your mother, sexually

L for Liberty!

Nope, its an L for Loser and for

http://gamesprays.com/files/resource_media/preview/homestuck-vriska-hairflip-5501_preview.gif

LLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Neither did Kenobi according to the highest form of canon. Like Nepthys reported:

Actually it doesn't say that at all. Just beause the movie doesn't show sequences of speed or force the same way as the book.. doesn't mean it wasn't shown and therefore didn't happen. That is about as illogical a point as I can think. Many things can't be properly shown in the movies like books. The books expand on what we saw... and therefore, kenobi DID in fact block such a sequence via canon.

JT and Neph if we go by the speed we see in the films then Grievous has much faster striking power than Sidious or Mace.

So you sure you want to go down that path?

Preciously DP.. that is exactly what I'm saying...

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
JT and Neph if we go by the speed we see in the films then Grievous has much faster striking power than Sidious or Mace.

So you sure you want to go down that path?

Did you receive my PM?

Originally posted by iheartchael
Did you receive my PM?

Yeah just chill out man.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
JT and Neph if we go by the speed we see in the films then Grievous has much faster striking power than Sidious or Mace.

So you sure you want to go down that path?

No, because as I said this has been explicitly explained by the authority on Canon, Leland Chee.

A better reason would be that the general is clearly no longer meant to be the unstoppable war machine the ROTS novel suggested he was.

But cherrypicking whose feats do and do not count is unnecessary.

Cherrypicking feats so that I win is my entire schtick 8a8y.

But what use is that when you lose anyways? excellent

I'll 8e sure to tell you when it happens.

Then you should have been telling me since December 29th, 2007. You have a lot of explaining to do.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, because as I said this has been explicitly explained by the authority on Canon, Leland Chee.

Yes he said they don't move at the exact speed we visually see in the movies.

But why should that apply differently to Grievous?

Grievous's speed shown was actually much closer to the way he's described than what we see from Sidious and Mace.

Grievous is described as moving so fast he teleports in the novel.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Then you should have been telling me since December 29th, 2007. You have a lot of explaining to do.

Ye8h!???????? W8ll you c8n just expl8in yours8lf to an empty 8ed tonight douch88g!!!!!!!!

Also:

FUUUUUUUUCK AUTOPL8 VIDEOS!!!!!!!!

Teleporting fast? What?

Yeah that video's annoying me too!

When he's talking to Gunray it mentions that at one point he appears to teleport across the room.

YEEEEEEEES!!!!!!!! THANK **** FOR MODS!!!!!!!!

Edit: Heh, new page anyway.

Originally posted by ares834
If Sidious blitzed Maul or even Savage I could see why some would believe Kenobi would be blitzed by Sidious... But he didn't.




Interestingly if you watch the scenes from the trailer in slow motion it becomes clear Opress is hardly in the fight.

Sidious seems to be focusing on Maul. He could be testing how powerful Maul is now.

can we keep the topic to the thread please? I said dooku and obi wan vs sids, not fisto vs obi.

And imo, obi wan and dooku would defeat sids, seeing that mace arguably defeated him.

Originally posted by mnat801
can we keep the topic to the thread please? I said dooku and obi wan vs sids, not fisto vs obi.

Mnat801 discussing Fisto vs Obi-Wan is very important to this thread, because IF Obi-Wan is in the same league as Fisto, then he will be a complete non-factor here even in a Sabers Only fight.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
despite the fact that he has done it to three swordsmasters (at least one of whom is on Kenobi's level of speed)?

None of them have the speed feats that Kenobi has. You keep making things up to suit your argument S66.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Give me evidents that Obi Wan is fast enough to provide even some what of a challenge to someone who can blitz three swordsmasters in seconds, and I will accept that.

He only has to be faster than the fastest of those 3 and your A>B>C argument here automatically fails.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, if Kenobi is so far ahead of Kit in speed, then why was he floored by Grievous on a couple of occasions?

He hit him by surprise with a third arm that was in hiding. The other time he defeated all 4 of his arms anyway. I've already addressed all those points of yours in detail but you've ignored them and carried on repeating the same argument.

If Fisto is in Kenobi's league then why did he have to hide from a 4 Saber wielding Grievous and attempt to strike him from behind?

If Fisto is in Kenobi's league why can't he match Ventress?

Has Fisto shown anything to show he can defend himself against the likes of Sith Anakin? Nope.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A better reason would be that the general is clearly no longer meant to be the unstoppable war machine the ROTS novel suggested he was.


Jedi's usually resort to Force TK to defeat Grievous though. It's actually still very rare for a Jedi to defeat him in pure Sabers. Especially when he's wielding 4.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


If Fisto is in Kenobi's league why can't he match Ventress?



Fisto matched Ventrss just as well as, if not better than Kenobi, in the Cestus Deception novel, even though they both lost to her. Kenobi also noted in the same novel that Fisto was the superior swordsman by a considerable margin.

And BTW - the plural form of Jedi is still Jedi, not Jedis or "Jedi's."

Yes, Fisto matched Ventress better than Kenobi. Despite the fact that Fisto lost against her and Kenobi forced her to flee...

Anyway, as of the CW Kenobi regularly defeats Ventress and, at times, treats her like a red headed stepchild.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes, Fisto matched Ventress better than Kenobi. Despite the fact that Fisto lost against her and Kenobi forced her to flee...

Anyway, as of the CW Kenobi regularly defeats Ventress and, at times, treats her like a red headed stepchild.

Correction; You mean he forced her to flee AFTER Fisto saved his butt right as Ventress was about to kill him.

Had Fisto not been there, Kenobi would have been killed. / of story.

Fisto didn't need Kenobi's assistance to avoid death.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
None of them have the speed feats that Kenobi has. You keep making things up to suit your argument S66.


What speed feats does Kenobi have that puts him so far ahead of Fisto? According to Lucien, Grievous's speed was actually overloading Kenobi's defenses, which would put Grievous ahead of Kenobi in terms of speed. I'll take Lucien's word for it, because he has a copy of the ROTS novel downloaded (I think). Sidious's speed >>>> Grievous speed, by miles.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He hit him by surprise with a third arm that was in hiding. The other time he defeated all 4 of his arms anyway. I've already addressed all those points of yours in detail but you've ignored them and carried on repeating the same argument.


Obi Wan sure gets hit by surprise quite a bit. Regardless, Grievous shouldn't be able to take Kenobi by surprise unless he has comparable speed to Obi Wan, and Obi Wan is not fast enough to react to the surprise attacks.

In ROTS, Obi Wan was fighting Grievous defensively, waiting for opportunity to disarm Grievous of his lightsabers one at a time - which he only disarmed Grievous of two. Fisto fought Grievous differently than Kenobi did; Kit was actually forcing Grievous on the defensive, possibly through superior speed or superior strength. Fisto even managed to land a body shot on Grievous, although Grievous was protected by his armor. And again, Fisto did not have the experience against someone like Grievous as ROTS Kenobi did.

I haven't been replying to your arguments, because I'm waiting to see if someone else can provide a better argument as to why Kenobi would be a challenge to Sidious in sabers. So far you have failed to do so. The only huge difference between Fisto and Kenobi that has been proven, is their style of fighting. But I still don't see how that is going to help Obi Wan against Sidious, when Sidious can leap across a room and blitz two master before they could react. The speed difference between Sidious and Kenobi is just too great for Kenobi's style to even be a factor.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If Fisto is in Kenobi's league then why did he have to hide from a 4 Saber wielding Grievous and attempt to strike him from behind?


And why did ROTS Kenobi have to use a force push against a two saber wielding Grievous? Because, you know, that's basically how their lightsaber duel ended. And before you say "well Fisto used a force push too," remember, I'm not the one wanting to use your silly logic, I'm only using it against you


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If Fisto is in Kenobi's league why can't he match Ventress?


Do you mind explaining to me how Fisto and Ventress's fight played out?

I do know that Ventress has also defeated Kenobi on occasions, and has even fought off both him and Anakin at the same time.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Has Fisto shown anything to show he can defend himself against the likes of Sith Anakin? Nope.


OMG, Fisto never had to fight someone like Anakin. But no, Fisto probably would not last as long against Anakin as Kenobi did, because he does not know Anakin inside and out the way Obi Wan does, and he is not as much of a defensive fighter as Obi Wan is. This is the exactly why you should stop lecturing on ABC logic.

It is said in the RotS novel that Grievous is faster than any human could hope to be.

Now whether that counts as being from the narration is a matter of debate, but the concept is debatable.

Originally posted by ares834
Anyway, as of the CW Kenobi regularly defeats Ventress and, at times, treats her like a red headed stepchild.

You mean like when she pwned him in 10 seconds in the Nightsisters arc?

This is one of the things I love about TCW; it is pretty clever about showing that among fighters of a certain caliber, a multitude of factors can shift the outcome of a fight.

But while Ventress held her own against Obi-Wan and Anakin, I don't recall her pwning him, much less in 10 seconds.

Correct, it's actually more like 9.

LPHICbbPxL4

Fight starts @ 0.16 and ends for him @ 0.25.

Good old Glass-Jaw Kenobi.

Yeah, I watched it. But he got back up and disarmed her at the end. If you mean by "pwn" she landed the first strike, definitely, but she also did the same to Anakin despite the fact that he overpowered her previously in the season, one-on-one. Hell, Grievous managed to land the first hit on her during their duel in "Massacre." I'm not sure it's reasonable to insinuate that she could do so consistently. As I said, it's the nature of the show that victory isn't a matter of comparing combat stats and hitpoints.

No, I mean that she pwned him by knocking him the **** out with a kick. If Anakin wasn't there she could have easily killed him.

Our points are the same. I was pointing out that O8i-Wan does not, in fact, treat Ventress like a red-headed step child, and that actually, at times she has treated him in such a manner.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What speed feats does Kenobi have that puts him so far ahead of Fisto?

Let's see from Dooku's perspective:

"-that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to find the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away-
Only to find himself again facing the wheel of blue lightning that was Kenobi's blade"

"he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago"

"and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker"

Plus there's defending against 20 strikes per second. Now either provide proof of Fisto's speed feats that compare, or stop this desperate argument with absolutely nothing to back it.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Obi Wan sure gets hit by surprise quite a bit. Regardless, Grievous shouldn't be able to take Kenobi by surprise unless he has comparable speed to Obi Wan, and Obi Wan is not fast enough to react to the surprise attacks.

Stop talking crap. A surprise hit is a surprise hit. That's it.

Otherwise I guess Yoda is much slower than Sidious because Sidious surprise hit him with Lightning right.

Oh and Padawan Obi-Wan must have been 20 times faster than TPM Maul to hit him from that position!



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In ROTS, Obi Wan was fighting Grievous defensively, waiting for opportunity to disarm Grievous of his lightsabers one at a time - which he only disarmed Grievous of two.

Lol they were hardest 2 because he had to get past 20 strikes per second to cut them. The next 2 only would have been easier.

Talk about some serious lowballing!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Fisto fought Grievous differently than Kenobi did; Kit was actually forcing Grievous on the defensive, possibly through superior speed or superior strength. Fisto even managed to land a body shot on Grievous, although Grievous was protected by his armor. And again, Fisto did not have the experience against someone like Grievous as ROTS Kenobi did.

The fact that the fight was moving back and forth means nothing. It's the result that counts. We know Obi-Wan by his style defends and gives ground.

I mean jeez even Dooku gives ground against Grievous, so I guess Fisto has possibly diplayed superior strength and speed to Dooku now! LOL!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
OMG, Fisto never had to fight someone like Anakin. But no, Fisto probably would not last as long against Anakin as Kenobi did, because he does not know Anakin inside and out the way Obi Wan does, and he is not as much of a defensive fighter as Obi Wan is. This is the exactly why you should stop lecturing on ABC logic.

If you think Fisto would even stand a chance against Sith Anakin then your beyond hope.

And what's this Fisto never fought Anakin bull crap?? So give me a feat of his that compares then! Or what we just gna pretend he could have.

Yeah great Plo Koon beats Sith Anakin because they never fought.

Maul beats Yoda because they never fought either.




S66 I've provided more than enough feats to the table and you've brought nothing. I've mentioned all the powerhouse Kenobi has defeated, brought up a whole list of how clearly his speed is described as being astonishingly fast to Dooku!

But you've brought nothing. All your going on about is the Fisto/Grievous fight.

By that argument I guess Fisto is in the same league as Mace because Grievous gave him moderate trouble as well in a sword fight! And in the same league as Dooku who was also hard pressed to fight of all of Grievous swords at times!

Up your game now, give me feats that compare or accept Fisto being in Kenobi's league was a stupid stance to take.

Then we can discuss Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I mean that she pwned him by knocking him the **** out with a kick. If Anakin wasn't there she could have easily killed him.

But again, Ventress does not consistently demonstrate this sort of skill; her fights with Obi-Wan tend to be extremely close.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Our points are the same.

Only if you're not suggesting this is a recurring theme.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was pointing out that O8i-Wan does not, in fact, treat Ventress like a red-headed step child, and that actually, at times she has treated him in such a manner.

I honestly can't remember the other episodes in which they fought, other than "Nightsisters" and the movie.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I mean that she pwned him by knocking him the **** out with a kick. If Anakin wasn't there she could have easily killed him.

Our points are the same. I was pointing out that O8i-Wan does not, in fact, treat Ventress like a red-headed step child, and that actually, at times she has treated him in such a manner.

That was a rage enhanced Ventress.

Going from the CW movie and all other showings of both characters in CW, Obi-Wan is clearly in her league or above.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But again, Ventress does not consistently demonstrate this sort of skill; her fights with Obi-Wan tend to be extremely close.

I didn't claim that they weren't.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only if you're not suggesting this is a recurring theme.

I'm not even sure how you'd think I was in the first place.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I honestly can't remember the other episodes in which they fought, other than "Nightsisters" and the movie.

I don't watch the show, so I couldn't say.

Originally posted by The_Tempest




I honestly can't remember the other episodes in which they fought, other than "Nightsisters" and the movie.

CW movie where he did embarass her. And the season1 episode where there was a clone traitor.

She again held them both off(Obi-Wan and Anakin), but was just delaying the inevitable in that one.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
CW movie where he did embarass her.

Recall that she disarmed him before he did that.

R-t9GlT9qmk

Suggesting that Obi-Wan is beyond Kit by any substantial degree is baseless. Kit's performance here against Grievous rivals any of Obi-Wan's showings against him; it's even more impressive given the general's home field advantage and the fact that this is the first time Kit and Grievous fought.

Having more feats =/= having better ones. Their respective fights against Grievous are the best means by which to compare them.

Fisto fought him earlier that same episode, had loads of help, yet Grievous escaped (with half his body anyway).

And look at the fight carefully, he never had to fight off all 4 of his swords,(kept hiding in the mist at that point) and never actually defeated him in the sword fight, so I don't see how that's just as good or better than ROTS Kenobi's trouncing of him.

Oh and if we ignore all other feats, then we can start comparing Fisto to Mace, since Grievous also gave Mace trouble in Sabers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Recall that she disarmed him before he did that.

Yeah but he was clearly holding back and underestimating her at that point: "You'll have to do better than that my darling."

And then dodging all her strikes when he was disarmed just furthers his case and not hers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fisto fought him earlier that same episode, had loads of help, yet Grievous escaped (with half his body anyway).

Is Asajj a better fighter than Anakin because she, unarmed, escaped him and a squad of clones in "ARC Troopers"? Or is she a better fighter than Dooku when she, unarmed, escaped him in "Witches of the Mist"?

The two situations you seek to compare are entirely different. The Jedi were trapped in a corridor with Grievous, an environment that is clearly to his advantage: where he can better apply his prodigious strength and four lightsabers. The Jedi spent more time simply keeping his blades at bay so the clones could restrain him; the only reason Grievous escaped is because he physically overpowered the clones.

When the two fought one-on-one in the episode's climax, Grievous was disarmed, constantly giving ground, and was put on his ass via the Force. Again, circumstances can alter the nature of a fight, but unless something rises to contradict it, it's pretty clear that Kit was the superior fighter on even ground.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And look at the fight carefully, he never had to fight off all 4 of his swords,(kept hiding in the mist at that point) and never actually defeated him in the sword fight, so I don't see how that's just as good or better than ROTS Kenobi's trouncing of him.

I am watching the duel; Grievous couldn't make use of all his blades because Kit had relieved him of one. I'm not sure how the significance of that has not registered with you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and if we ignore all other feats, then we can start comparing Fisto to Mace, since Grievous also gave Mace trouble in Sabers.

What?

Kit isn't on Kenobi's level and there is ZERO evidence to support such a claim.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Is Asajj a better fighter than Anakin because she, unarmed, escaped him and a squad of clones in "ARC Troopers"? Or is she a better fighter than Dooku when she, unarmed, escaped him in "Witches of the Mist"?

The two situations you seek to compare are entirely different. The Jedi were trapped in a corridor with Grievous, an environment that is clearly to his advantage: where he can better apply his prodigious strength and four lightsabers. The Jedi spent more time simply keeping his blades at bay so the clones could restrain him; the only reason Grievous escaped is because he physically overpowered the clones.

Just pointing out he had already fought him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
When the two fought one-on-one in the episode's climax, Grievous was disarmed, constantly giving ground, and was put on his ass via the Force. Again, circumstances can alter the nature of a fight, but unless something rises to contradict it, it's pretty clear that Kit was the superior fighter on even ground.

I'm still not seeing how this puts Fisto in the same league as ROTS Kenobi who completely tooled Grievous in Sabers, and then sent him flying like 50 feet with the Force.

What more of a tooling could Kenobi have given him exactly?



Originally posted by The_Tempest
I am watching the duel; Grievous couldn't make use of all his blades because Kit had relieved him of one. I'm not sure how the significance of that has not registered with you.

And how did he relieve him of that arm? It was bascially CIS on Grievous's part. He was talking away, gloating, and attacked Fisto with only the one arm.

So I don't see him anywhere putting up with the 20 strikes per second that Kenobi did.

And I know your not buying it, but I'm sorry against an opponent who can dangerously wield 3 or 4 Sabers himself, wielding a 2nd one effectively will help. And still he didn't win the pure Saber fight, but resorted to a force attack.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
What?

You heard me punk!

Ok here's a better example. If we're to compare Mace and Dooku by the one opponent they both faced - Sora Bulq, then I would have to assume Dooku was the superior swordsman to Mace. When in fact the reverse is likely true.
Or what about a foe that both Kenobi and Ashoka have fought. Cad Bane. Lol. Cad Bane was defeated by Ashoka, but then surprise electrocuted her in "Cargo of Doom". Whilst Cad Bane embarrased both Obi-Wan and Quinlan Vos in that episode... Can't remember what it was called.
Anyway we going to put Obi-Wan and Ashoka in the same league just due to that! Lol. Could also argue Ashoke performed better against multiple mandalorians than Obi-Wan did. But you get the point.


Like I said Kenobi has far far superior feats overall and by ROTS Kenobi completely tooled all 4 of Grievous's swords in Sabers anyway, and displayed a far more powerful force attack on him than we've ever seen from Fisto.

So I'm failing to see how Kenobi could have done better to prove he's superior to Fisto.

Another speed feat for Kenobi in the ROTS novel. Again from Dooku's perspective:

Kenobi's response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.

"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished.


Waiting for proof from S66 that Fisto is as fast.

But not one-on-one, on even terrain.



I'm not sure how Obi-Wan did anything substantially better. Kit was tooling Grievous as well and Obi-Wan's Force push was clearly the product of exertion and effort, unlike the casual one employed by Kit.



By swinging his lightsaber?



Grievous didn't gloat during his confrontation with Obi-Wan?



I didn't see Obi-Wan put up with 20 strikes from Grievous, either. If we take the ROTS novel into account, Obi-Wan was dueling Grievous in a state of unity with the Force and enjoyed a tremendous advantage. We have no proof indicating Kit enjoyed such an intimate use of the Force, which further diminishes Obi-Wan's relative performance against the general.



Tell that to Grievous and Asajj, who wield multiple lightsabers and routinely lose their duels against singular and multiple opponents.

Not to mention the fact, again, that Grievous had all four lightsabers primed and in use when Kit engaged him; the second lightsaber only came into play for Kit after Grievous disarmed him.





Have you watched Obi-Wan's duel with Grievous in ROTS lately? You should, you'll note a curious detail about how that duel ends, as well.



That's a bad example, unless using Force lightning to end a fight makes you a better swordsman?



Actually, Bane was disarmed extremely quickly by Obi-Wan.



Maybe if the examples you provided actually applied lol!



Did we watch a different movie?



You mean the Force push he gave with visible exertion and effort?



By actually proving it?

Kit Fisto is decidedly beneath Kenobi. He comes damned near to admitting his own inferiority when he says.
"I wish Kenobi or Yoda were here."

Arrrgghh.. This is just becoming a repeat of my argument with S66.


Originally posted by The_Tempest




I'm not sure how Obi-Wan did anything substantially better. Kit was tooling Grievous as well

By cutting off 2 of his arms. Oh and by actually fighting off all 4 of his arms/swords, instead of hiding from them and then attempting to strike him from behind.



Originally posted by The_Tempest
By swinging his lightsaber?

Yes. And how many arms was Grievous attacking with when he did that. Hint: It was less than 2. When did Fisto fight off all 4 of GG's swords?



Originally posted by The_Tempest
Grievous didn't gloat during his confrontation with Obi-Wan?

Did he stop swinging all 4 of his arms, while gloating and then just strike him with 1? Was that how Kenobi chopped off Greivous's first arm?


Originally posted by The_Tempest
Tell that to Grievous and Asajj, who wield multiple lightsabers and routinely lose their duels against singular and multiple opponents.

I didn't say it's a guaranteed win. Of course it's not, or Ashoka would be kicking ass with her saber + shoto.

But you know as well as I do that Ventress holds off Obi-Wan and Anakin together quite well considering she has serious trouble defeating either one of them in a one on one.

We both also know Grievous is far more deadly wielding 4 Sabers than he is wielding 1.

And next week I'm going to discuss the Obi-Wan vs Opress and Maul with you. Because I'm betting that 2nd Saber he's using will be essential in keeping him alive through that fight.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not to mention the fact, again, that Grievous had all four lightsabers primed and in use when Kit engaged him; the second lightsaber only came into play for Kit after Grievous disarmed him.

Yeah but just point out the part where he actually fought off all 4 of his Sabers.



Originally posted by The_Tempest
Have you watched Obi-Wan's duel with Grievous in ROTS lately? You should, you'll note a curious detail about how that duel ends, as well.

Yeah after he already fought off all 4 of his arms, and cut off 2 of them. At that point it would be silly to think Grievous's last 2 Sabers would be a problem.



Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's a bad example, unless using Force lightning to end a fight makes you a better swordsman?

No he actually out dueled him as well. He disarmed him off his shoto, while fighting off Tholme. Mace never out dueled Bulq.



Originally posted by The_Tempest
Actually, Bane was disarmed extremely quickly by Obi-Wan.

Bane seemed to have him beat. He could have killed Kenobi if not for Quinlan Vos. Unless your talking about the second fight where Kenobi was in disguise, when Bane didn't realise he was up against a Jedi.



Originally posted by The_Tempest
Maybe if the examples you provided actually applied lol!

They do. They show how we can't just compare fights against 1 non-force user in different circumstances, when really we should be going by overall feats and showings.

FYI Ashoka also seemed to have Pre-Vizla beat quite quickly IIRC.



But again it doesn't matter. Because I really don't see how Kenobi could have done any better against GG in ROTS. He stomped him in Sabers and in the Force.

For us to then see Fisto beating Grievous in completely different circumstances(definitely no 20 strikes per second), and using that to say Fisto is in Kenobi's league is kind of absurd.

Eeth Koth also seemed to have Grievous beat. Does that also put him in Kenobi's league? If Ashoka eventually beats Grievous are we also going to put her in Kenobi's league?

And don't think it can't happen. Dave Filoni has said he believes any Jedi can beat GG once they get past the intimidation factor of his arms swinging so fast.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kit Fisto is decidedly beneath Kenobi. He comes damned near to admitting his own inferiority when he says.
"I wish Kenobi or Yoda were here."

Yes members of the council seem to think very highly of Obi-Wan's combat abilities.

They all agree to send him to fight off Grievous.

Kit as you have mentioned says he'd feel better confronting Sidious with Yoda, and if not Yoda then Kenobi.

And then of course there's Mace's humble opinion that Kenobi's sword skills rival his own.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah but he was clearly holding back and underestimating her at that point: "You'll have to do better than that my darling."

And then dodging all her strikes when he was disarmed just furthers his case and not hers.

So because he was engaging in banter he was going easy?

Yet when he got his lightsaber back they had quite a lengthy duel. In fact, soon after getting it back she still gets a kick in on him. If he were truly so much better than her he would have won swiftly after getting it back.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So because he was engaging in banter he was going easy?

Yet when he got his lightsaber back they had quite a lengthy duel. In fact, soon after getting it back she still gets a kick in on him. If he were truly so much better than her he would have won swiftly after getting it back.

Firstly I never claimed he's so much above Ventress. Although his coming fights with Maul and Opress may make an argument towards that. But at the moment there's nothing to suggest so.

Second you need to make up your mind if easily evading lightsaber attacks shows blatant superiority or not.

In the other thread your claiming Dooku showed how easily he can take Opress by dodging several of his strikes. But even though Obi-Wan did the same thing, your not seeing that as a sign of clear superiority.

You can't have it both ways Nephthys.

facepalm

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Firstly I never claimed he's so much above Ventress.

Nor have I claimed that she is so much above him. I think they are fairly even.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Although his coming fights with Maul and Opress may make an argument towards that. But at the moment there's nothing to suggest so.

I agree. We'll see with the fight. It will be very impressive if he performs well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Second you need to make up your mind if easily evading lightsaber attacks shows blatant superiority or not.

In the other thread your claiming Dooku showed how easily he can take Opress by dodging several of his strikes. But even though Obi-Wan did the same thing, your not seeing that as a sign of clear superiority.

You can't have it both ways Nephthys.

In this case we have the contradicting evidence that she disarmed him, got under his guard with a kick and dueled him evenly for quite some time, showing that they really aren't that far apart. I don't think he embarrassed her, it was a good fight.

In the case of Dooku there is no such evidence. I feel that he could have killed him were he so inclined.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just answer me 2 things. Do you believe Grievous is just as formidable with 1 Saber as he is with 4?


Probably not. Grievous is a cyborg with almost an entire robotic body, so his body does not funtion the same as a regular human/humanoid. He has a computer device implanted in his brain which likely takes away the issue of coordination.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And do you believe all the times Ventress fought off Anakin and Obi-Wan together, that she could have done that just as well with a single Saber?


Probably not. Using two sabers is a style she a master of and is most comfortable with. That doesn't mean it does not have it's disadvantages.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
1. ROTS Obi-Wan could not possibly have done any better. So I'm not sure what you expected Obi-Wan to do to prove he's Fisto's superior.

3. Going by all feats, showings and quotes puts Obi-Wan considerably above Fisto. And that's really how we should compare them.


Having more feats and quotes does not put Kenobi above Fisto. All we need to know is that the ROTS novel seems to imply that Kenobi was performing at his very best during his duel with Grievous (unity-with-the-force business). Despite Kenobi fighting at his very best, and with the advantage of having more experience with Grievous than Kit had, he still did not do significantly better than Fisto.

So yes, you're right, Kenobi could not have done any better against Grievous than he did in ROTS. That fact actually helps Fisto's case more than it does Kenobi's.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Despite Kenobi fighting at his very best, and with the advantage of having more experience with Grievous than Kit had, he still did not do significantly better than Fisto.

So yes, you're right, Kenobi could not have done any better against Grievous than he did in ROTS. That fact actually helps Fisto's case more than it does Kenobi's.

Originally posted by Nephthys


In this case we have the contradicting evidence that she disarmed him, got under his guard with a kick and dueled him evenly for quite some time, showing that they really aren't that far apart.

And in the Dooku vs Opress case there is the contradicting evidence that Dooku was disarmed and floored.

Dodging is impressive but it's not the all and end all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think he embarrassed her, it was a good fight.


Yeah I agree. But I think he won that one.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Probably not. Grievous is a cyborg with almost an entire robotic body, so his body does not funtion the same as a regular human/humanoid. He has a computer device implanted in his brain which likely takes away the issue of coordination.

I've always thought of the Force to be more useful than robotics.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Probably not. Using two sabers is a style she a master of and is most comfortable with. That doesn't mean it does not have it's disadvantages.

I never claimed there's no disadvantages to it. But I think past fights show it helps to hold off multiple lightsaber wielding opponents or just multiple lightsabers.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

???



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Having more feats and quotes does not put Kenobi above Fisto. All we need to know is that the ROTS novel seems to imply that Kenobi was performing at his very best during his duel with Grievous (unity-with-the-force business). Despite Kenobi fighting at his very best, and with the advantage of having more experience with Grievous than Kit had, he still did not do significantly better than Fisto.

So yes, you're right, Kenobi could not have done any better against Grievous than he did in ROTS. That fact actually helps Fisto's case more than it does Kenobi's.

I don't know what you and Tempest expected to see from Kenobi to put him above Fisto.

You don't want to compare feats and showings in general, only against Grievous, and then you want to write off Kenobi's Superior showing against Grievous because he melded with the Force.

There was no exceptional circumstance that forced him into that. If he can reach such a state then that's just a part of Kenobi's skill and attunement to the Force. That only helps his case really.

It's an extremely simple concept that has already been explained to you: more feats does not translate to combat superiority. We're comparing Kit's performance against Grievous vs. Obi-Wan's because it is the single most accurate measure for either of them, because it is something that both have done under similar circumstances: even ground, on Grievous's home turf, etc.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Fisto matched Ventrss just as well as, if not better than Kenobi, in the Cestus Deception novel, even though they both lost to her. Kenobi also noted in the same novel that Fisto was the superior swordsman by a considerable margin.

And BTW - the plural form of Jedi is still Jedi, not Jedis or "Jedi's."

Now, finally, Kit drew his lightsaber. Ventress drew a pair
of
blazing, red blades. She inclined her head, breathing more quickly,
lips
curling into a smile.
"Finally," she said.
"Your pleasure," Kit hissed, and went at her. He was like
fire,
Ven-tress like smoke. The dance had substance but not form, a blur of
light
that seemed impossibly fast, unbelievably deadly. The two leapt and
swerved,
collided and bounced away. Single against double light-blades. Hands,
knees,
feet, all in a mind-numbing blur.
Obi-Wan would have given his right hand to join. Or even to watch
such
a display. But he had his own worries, his own battle to fight.
He struggled with the urge to simply draw his lightsaber and
slaughter
the X'Ting. His enemies came on and on, struck quickly but clumsily, got
in
each other's way. Obi-Wan was direct in attack, and as elusive as a
breeze.
He'd missed the engagement, but suddenly-Kit was down! Wounded
and
groggy from a kick in the jaw, for the first time Ven-tress had pierced
his
guard. Her left-hand saber sliced his arm but as sparks flew he dove
away
from her left blade, leaning into a glancing blow from her right.
Obi-Wan heard the scream but couldn't see the wound's severity.
Kit
rolled as Ventress came at him, splashing down into the lake.
Ventress
stood on the dock smiling hugely, arms and legs spread in triumph,
laughing
in that arctic voice.
The Jedi tore his way through the X'Ting, breaking arms and legs as
he
went, then drew his lightsaber.
"This is between me and Ventress," he screamed. Enough of this
play!
"Anyone who stands between us, dies. Translate it, Ventress!"
"Why?" She snarled. "What?" he said scornfully. "Haven't you learned what you wanted
to
learn? Seen what you wanted to see? What is the point in sending
these
children to their death? They only die because they trust you. Is
there
nothing left inside you? If not goodness, then loyalty?"
Her eyes flickered for a moment, and he knew that something he'd
said
had struck a nerve. She nodded. "Tell them to leave," she said, and
the
protocol droid spat out its translation.
He covered the distance between them with a single
somersaulting
leap. Asajj Ventress was extraordinarily quick, but her very ferocity
gave
Obi-Wan a hairline opening, a moment when he had the better leverage.
He
blocked Ventress's lightsabers, and managed to pin her blades down.
Ventress was surprised, but in the next moment disengaged her
right
hand blade and slashed at his neck, attempting to behead him.
There was no time for conscious thought, no time for anything
but
response as Obi-Wan ducked and spun back. Ventress drew his attention
to
the left and leapt into the air in a spinning kick that slammed ObiWan
down into the dock. Once down, he never had a chance to get up again,
found
himself fighting from his back, wiggling and edging backwards, movement
so
limited that he knew the confrontation might be over within seconds.
The
first touch of desperation wormed its way through his emotional shields.
Obi-Wan bared his teeth. As Master Yoda had often said these days,
The
dark side has clouded the Galaxy. Difficult to see, the future is.
Floating below the dock, Kit Fisto could still hardly move. He
had
barely evaded death from a lightsaber wound to the head, and his
senses
still were far away. But some deep instinct had warned him that
his
compatriot Obi-Wan was in trouble, fighting to protect both their lives.
Hewoke up enough to reach for his lightsaber.
He triggered it, and sliced the pilings supporting the dock.
Ventress
howled in surprise as she and Obi-Wan tumbled into the water. Kit
wanted
desperately to help, but had exhausted his supply of strength.
Surrendering
to his wounds, he lost consciousness.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's an extremely simple concept that has already been explained to you:.

I've also been explaining very simple factors involved that you and S66 don't seem to get.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
more feats does not translate to combat superiority.

No but superior feats and showings are usually a pretty good indication.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
We're comparing Kit's performance against Grievous vs. Obi-Wan's because it is the single most accurate measure for either of them, because it is something that both have done under similar circumstances: even ground, on Grievous's home turf, etc.

So I guess we should compare Mace Windu and Count Dooku's combat abilities solely by their performance against Sora Bulq right? And ignore all other feats and showings?

And again I ask you, how do you expect Kenobi to do better against Grievous? He stomped him in Sabers and in the Force. What more do you expect him to do to Grievous before your open to the possibility Kenobi may be in a league above Fisto?

And I don't find Grievous the perfect medium of comparison at all since it's been made clear that pretty much any Jedi Master can best him. That doesn't somehow make Kenobi an average Jedi.

With similar showings against Ventress in the Cestus Deception, as well as both of them besting General Grievous, it's illogical to conclude that Kenobi is in another league as compared to Fisto. They are very similar in martial prowess, and as such, should be considered as being in the same tier together. Any argument insisting otherwise is... desperate and stinks of bullshit.

Now, does that mean that Sidious would do a 8 second blitz on Kenobi? Not necessarily in 8 seconds, considering Kenobi is one hell of a masterful defensive swordsman, but it wouldn't take long at all. Because of Sidous' power in the Force, which translates into his swordplay as well, Kenobi simply would not and could not last long against Sidious in either lightsaber combat, or a Force contest. To think otherwise is silly.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And ignore all other feats and showings?


No one is ignoring Kenobi's feats, DP. If those feats somehow outweigh his performance against Grievous, and Kenobi was not fighting to the best of his ability, then I would be able to see your point. But the ROTS novel seems to imply that Kenobi was fighting to the best of his ability.

Kenobi, fighting his best against Grievous, and with an advantage of more experience with Grievous, still only managed to do just as well as Fisto did. That's basically what we are saying.

Also, Kenobi himself describes Fisto as the better swordsman here in another section from The Cestus Deception (apologies for the shitty formatting in my previous post):

"For two hours Obi-Wan Kenobi and Kit Fisto had practiced with
their lightsabers, increasing their pace slowly and steadily as the
minutes passed. The cargo bay sizzled with an energized metallic tang as
their sabers singed moisture from the air.

A Jedi's life was his or her lightsaber. Some criticized the
weapon, saying that a blaster or bomb was more efficient, making it easier for
a soldier to kill from a distance. To those who reckoned such
things statistically, this was an important advantage. But a Jedi was not a soldier, not an assassin, not a killer,
although upon occasion they had been forced into such roles. For Jedi Knights,
the interaction between Jedi and the life-form in question was a vital aspect
of the energy field from which they drew their powers. Ship-to-ship
combat, sentient versus nonsentient, warrior against warrior: it mattered not.
The interaction itself created a web of energy. A Jedi climbed it, surfed
it, drew power from it. In standing within arm's reach of an opponent, a
Jedi walked the edge between life and death.

Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking
holes in the other's defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the
better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan's more measured style.
But the Nautolan gave himself deliberate disadvantages, hampered himself in terms
of balance, limited his speed, emphasized his nondominant side to
force himself to full attention, the kind of full attention that can be
best accessed only when life itself is at risk. To relax and feel the flow
of the Force under such stress was the true road to mastery.

A Master from the Sabilon region of Glee Anselm, Kit was
a practitioner of Form I lightsaber combat: it was the most ancient style
of fighting, based on ancient sword techniques. Obi-Wan's own Padawan
learner, Anakin, used Form V, which concentrated on strength. The lethal Count
Dooku had used Form II, an elegant, precise style that stressed
advanced precision in blade manipulation. Obi-Wan himself specialized in Form III. This form grew out
of laser-blast deflection training, and maximized defensive protection.

For hours the two danced without music, at first falling into
apreplanned series of moves and countermoves learned in the Temple
under Master Yoda's tutelage. As they grew more accustomed to each
other's rhythms, they progressed into a flowing web of spontaneous
engagement. Slowly, minute by minute, they increased pace, stuttered the
rhythm, increasing the acuteness of attack angles and beginning to utilize
feints and distractions, binds, rapid changes in level, and to introduce
random environmental elements into the interaction: furniture, walls,
slippery floors. To an observer it would have seemed that the two were trying
to slaughter each other, but the two knew that they were engaged in the
most profound and enjoyable aspect of Jedi play, lightsaber flow."


Hell, it even mentions the fact that Fisto had to handicap himself in order to allow Kenobi a fair playing field. With that being said, it's extremely hard to argue for Kenobi being the better warrior, let alone in a another league as compared to Fisto. Kit is every bit as good as Kenobi, if not better.

Well then, that clears that up.

With similar showings against Ventress in the Cestus Deception, as well as both of them besting General Grievous, it's illogical to conclude that Kenobi is in another league as compared to Fisto. They are very similar in martial prowess, and as such, should be considered as being in the same tier together. Any argument insisting otherwise is... desperate and stinks of bullshit.

Now, does that mean that Sidious would do a 8 second blitz on Kenobi? Not necessarily in 8 seconds, considering Kenobi is one hell of a masterful defensive swordsman, but it wouldn't take long at all. Because of Sidous' power in the Force, which translates into his swordplay as well, Kenobi simply would not and could not last long against Sidious in either lightsaber combat, or a Force contest. To think otherwise is silly.




Hell, it even mentions the fact that Fisto had to handicap himself in order to allow Kenobi a fair playing field. With that being said, it's extremely hard to argue for Kenobi being the better warrior, let alone in a another league as compared to Fisto. Kit is every bit as good as Kenobi, if not better.









Comparing the two based off their performances against Bulq is certainly legitimate and would conclude that one isn't out of the other's league (a fact confirmed by their clash at Boz Pity).



Nothing, Kenobi gave his very best. It's a simple issue that his very best doesn't outstrip Kit's performance against the same foe under suspiciously similar circumstances.



With the exception of Ahsoka and Nadhar Vebb (who each lost to Grievous), every Jedi who's clashed with the general was a member of the Jedi Council, who (like Obi-Wan) aren't average Jedi.

Originally posted by The_Tempest


Comparing the two based off their performances against Bulq is certainly legitimate and would conclude that one isn't out of the other's league (a fact confirmed by their clash at Boz Pity).

Well that will probably change. I doubt is Obsession canon anymore. CW Series will decide Ventress's fate instead.

Waiting on your response DP...

I am waiting on your response to DP's forthcoming response...

Well the response is actually kind of obvious JT:

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
With similar showings against Ventress in the Cestus Deception,

Which means nothing because by the CW movie Obi-Wan is able to defeat Ventress. So he's obviously improved considerably since Cestus Deception.

So unless you can show Fisto has also improved since then and he is also capable of taking Ventress now, this point is moot. In fact this point actually helps prove Current CW/ROTS Obi-Wan being above Fisto.



Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
as well as both of them besting General Grievous, it's illogical to conclude that Kenobi is in another league as compared to Fisto.

This is the logic I'm still not getting. How does both of them besting Grievous put them both in the same league?

Eeth Koth had Grievous defeated if not for the Magnaguards. Does that put Eeth Koth on par with Kenobi? No. It just mean they're both above Grievous.



Btw According to Dooku in "Lair of Grievous" it would be a great accomplishment for Grievous to defeat a Jedi "Master".

And Dave Filoni has recently said that any Jedi can beat Grievous once they get over the intimidation factor of him wielding multiple lightsabers.

This goes hand in hand with the way Dooku taught Grievous to defeat Jedi Masters, with Fear, Intimidation and Surprise on his side. Without those 3 things Jedi Masters are simply out of his league. That doesn't mean all those Jedi Masters are equal to each to other.

No.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Dave Filoni has recently said that any Jedi can beat Grievous once they get over the intimidation factor of him wielding multiple lightsabers.

facepalm

They should just have all his dialogue be 'roger, roger!' and have him comedically blow himself up from now on.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Hell, it even mentions the fact that Fisto had to handicap himself in order to allow Kenobi a fair playing field. With that being said, it's extremely hard to argue for Kenobi being the better warrior, let alone in a another league as compared to Fisto. Kit is every bit as good as Kenobi, if not better.

Now, to be fair here this was in the opening weeks of the war according to Chee's new timeline. There is no doubt that he improved considerably between AotC and RotS.

Anyway, while Kenobi may not have fared much better against Grevious then Fisto (I'd also point out that Windu did't stomp Grevious in a saber fight as well), he fared far better against Ventress specifically in his fight on Teth than Fisto did. And of course we have his duel with Anakin. Yes, there was a massive dosage of PIS at the end but until then Obi-Wan was holding his own.

That feat alone suggests to me that Sidious sure as hell isn't blitzing Obi-Wan Kenobi in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by Nephthys
facepalm

They should just have all his dialogue be 'roger, roger!' and have him comedically blow himself up from now on.

Filoni's commentary for "Duel of the Droids" dispels this notion: Jedi Masters may be able to take Grievous, but not any Jedi.

Still pretty stupid.

Nah, I'm cool with it. Their true error with Grievous is displaying none of that tactical brilliance.

Maybe I should read Labyrinth of Evil, since you and others seem to find it the best portrayal of Grievous in such a light.

My favorite depiction of Grievous is from the ROTS novel, particularly his opening scene.

Labyrinth of Evil is pretty good, but the truth is that Grievous was never portrayed as an unstoppable foe in anything but the micro-series and a handful of comics.

People get hung up on TCW!Grievous losing to Gungans, but that was context specific. Every fight he's ever been in on the show has been relatively close. The most lopsided fight he's been in was, ironically, his duel with Kit.

The problem, for me anyway, is that I prefer Grievous as a nigh-unstoppable force who can roll through basically anyone except for the most powerful of Jedi. It's not as if the "bad guys" of the series have individuals of that caliber in spades (Dooku seems to be the only one, except lol@being captured by pirates), whereas the Jedi do (In Yoda and Mace, for example). He was introduced in the micro-series as being not just a monster in close-combat who could roll teams of masters and knights and ARC's with no problem, but was also a strategic genius.

He hasn't been portrayed as either in this series. I could handle him not being unstoppable, but it isn't just that he's been portrayed as not quite the ultimate badass, but also that he's pretty much just a ***** in general. He's a coward who flees from almost every fight he's in, almost every duel he's been involved in has ended with him either running away, or in a tie, and he's shown pretty much no tactical/strategic prowess what-so-ever throughout the series, either winning a victory that's pyrrhic at most, or getting outright foiled by Republic time and again.

I would prefer if they just killed him off (which they obviously can't do due to RotS), as his character is basically pointless. It's already been established that he's hardly a formidable foe for the Jedi and the Republic. He has no respect within the CIS, with even Ventress regularly talking shit to him. The only role he really serves in the story is to be The Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain, who twirls his mustache and cackles villainously before running away sputtering and cursing and shaking his fist at the heroes for foiling his dastardly plot.

Meh.

It's okay though. In my mind the current cartoon series isn't even canon, thus I still cling to his portrayal within the novels, comics and the micro-series.

They definitely defanged the Separatists, no question. But I was pleased w/ Grievous in "Massacre."

Originally posted by ares834
Now, to be fair here this was in the opening weeks of the war according to Chee's new timeline. There is no doubt that he improved considerably between AotC and RotS.


If Fisto managed to do just as good as Kenobi who was fighting at his very best, then it's likely Fisto has also improved. More than likely, in fact.

I understand that Kenobi has taken more superior opponents than Fisto has, but the fact still remains that Kenobi at his very best still only managed to do so good against Grievous, which still did not top Fisto's performance against Grievous. If an argument could be made that ROTS Kenobi could have done better than he did, then I would able to see yours and DP's point, but such an argument can't be made; the ROTS novel makes it clear that Kenobi was performing at his very best ("unity with the force".

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Fisto managed to do just as good as Kenobi who was fighting at his very best, then it's likely Fisto has also improved. More than likely, in fact.

Fisto likely improved, yes. But we don't know by how much. By contrast, we can assess how much Kenobi improved.

Also if we're saying Fisto improved, I'd also bring up that Grevious likely improved. After all we see Dooku training him in the old CW cartoon.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I understand that Kenobi has taken more superior opponents than Fisto has, but the fact still remains that Kenobi at his very best still only managed to do so good against Grievous, which still did not top Fisto's performance against Grievous. If an argument could be made that ROTS Kenobi could have done better than he did, then I would able to see yours and DP's point, but such an argument can't be made; the ROTS novel makes it clear that Kenobi was performing at his very best ("unity with the force".

Once again, even Mace didn't thrash Grevious in their lightsaber duel. Does that mean Fisto is on Windu's level? Of course not as Mace has other feats that put him beyond Fisto. It works the same way with Kenobi.

Given how Kit, Koth, and Ventress have handily defeated Grievous in TCW, I think we can chalk that up to a good, old fashioned retcon.

Nah. I'm not willing to throw out certain materials just because I don't believe it fits with the characters power levels. Otherwise, I'd throw out the vast majority of EU centered around the movies.

Who said we throw it out?

Originally posted by ares834
Once again, even Mace didn't thrash Grevious in their lightsaber duel. Does that mean Fisto is on Windu's level? Of course not as Mace has other feats that put him beyond Fisto. It works the same way with Kenobi.


Perhaps an argument could be made that Mace could have done better when we compare his other feats. But such an argument can't be made for Kenobi, considering how he was fighting at his very best and how he struggled against Grievous in the past.