Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Some people believe Kenobi only won because Anakin was conflicted and emotional. Others believe Kenobi would always beat Anakin because of his style and the fact that he knew Anakin in n out. So I figured I'd use peak anakin vs. Master Kenobi

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Some people believe Kenobi only won because Anakin was conflicted and emotional. Others believe Kenobi would always beat Anakin because of his style and the fact that he knew Anakin in n out. So I figured I'd use peak anakin vs. Master Kenobi

I don't recall Obi-wan beating Anakin.

But I do recall him beating Darth Vader.

Kenobi can handle Pre-suit Vader, but Zone Anakin would murder him.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and the fact that he knew Anakin in n out.

I've also said this a million times before, and every time someone makes that ^ above statement, they sound like a moron.

Obi-wan and Anakin knew each other inside and out as fighters - it's a double-edged sword; a two-way street.

That should be overly obvious.

It would either give both of them an advantage, or neither of them an advantage, where that's concerned.

Obi-wan was fighting a different person than Anakin - he fought Vader; same body, different Persona.

If he had fought the same Anakin that overcame Dooku - Kenobi would have been murdered.

Battlemaster.. Star Wars just isn't your thing.. there is a lot wrong with what you said. Stick to Wolverine buddy.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Battlemaster.. Star Wars just isn't your thing.. there is a lot wrong with what you said. Stick to Wolverine buddy. Battlemaster is correct, Zonakin would beat Obi-Wan like a cheap hooker, simple as that.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
But I do recall him beating Darth Vader.

Kenobi can handle Pre-suit Vader Obi had better have a lava river and a slightly high embankment handy to goad Vader in to jumping over. The only reason he survived his duel with Vader were those two things. In a flat-planed, sterile environment, Vader would defeat Kenobi.

look, just because sideous gave anakin the name 'vader' doesnt mean that anakin was a totally different person. anakins emotions are not an excuse for him losing to obi wan. its a weakness.
And even if it was an excuse, what about obi wans thoughts? He has just come to realise that is long time padawan has just turned to the dark side. wouldnt he be reluctant to kill anakin?

in my opinion, obi wan would defeat anakin any day.

And Lord Lucien,

If you believe anakin can defeat obi wan, he should be able to defeat him at any location.

Originally posted by mnat801
And Lord Lucien,

If you believe anakin can defeat obi wan, he should be able to defeat him at any location. He can. It's Obi-Wan who needs a leveled terrain tilted in his favour at the most opportune moment, ala RotS.

Reading comprehension. It's a more valuable perk than Bloody Mess.

Its too bad that your point cant be proved. nevertheless, i respect your opinion.

Originally posted by mnat801
Its too bad that your point cant be proved. nevertheless, i respect your opinion. Go read the RotS novelization.

Anakin pretty easy.


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Obi had better have a lava river and a slightly high embankment handy to goad Vader in to jumping over. The only reason he survived his duel with Vader were those two things. In a flat-planed, sterile environment, Vader would defeat Kenobi.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Go read the RotS novelization.

Which part of the novelization make it clear that Anakin would win if not for the Terrain? Can I see a quote of this please. Anakin and Kenobi for MOST of the fight were fighting on level ground and anakin WASN'T overwhelming or owning Kenobi. They were fighting on even terms. So that is CLEARLY not true. Further, Kenobi using Anakin's own weakness's against him isn't foul play or not to be factored. Anakin's boldness and arrogance WOULD ALWAYS leave such openings. All the woulda coulda shoulda.. doesn't change the fact that Kenobi DECISIVELY beat Anakin, and no amount of excuses will ever change that.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which part of the novelization make it clear that Anakin would win if not for the Terrain? Can I see a quote of this please. Anakin and Kenobi for MOST of the fight were fighting on level ground and anakin WASN'T overwhelming or owning Kenobi. They were fighting on even terms. So that is CLEARLY not true. Further, Kenobi using Anakin's own weakness's against him isn't foul play or not to be factored. Anakin's boldness and arrogance WOULD ALWAYS leave such openings. All the woulda coulda shoulda.. doesn't change the fact that Kenobi DECISIVELY beat Anakin, and no amount of excuses will ever change that. It seems like once a year or so, someone comes by and says what you're saying now. Two times in the past I have quoted whole passages from the novel that explicitly state (from Obi-Wan's personal perspective) that Anakin was kicking ass from the get-go. Obi had to rely on tricks just to stay alive. Not win, but to stay alive. It was that one moment at the end where Anakin tried jumping over him that lost him the duel.

Which is why I say the only way Obi would win again is if the same scenario was re-created. The book makes it clear (again, from Obi-Wan's perspective) that Anakin was pushing him back again and again, and getting stronger while Obi-Wan was getting more and more tired. This fits right in with Lucas' statement that Obi-Wan was more experienced, but Anakin more powerful. Experience let him surivive that long, but power was overwhelming him.



I am NOT re-quoting that chapter for a third time. The Russian site has it, look it up yourself.

According to the Star Wars canon, Obi-Wan is a specialist of Soresu, Anakin a specialist of Djem So. Having worked with Nick on the forms I believe I can say I know them inside out and Soresu's gameplan is essentially, to whether the storm, protect oneself while conserving energy, and wait for the opponent to run out of cardio/become caresless and make a mistake. Djem So on the other hand is a berserker style, all offence with high reliance on both speed and power but also technique to skillfully overpower your opponent's defences. Now the question is esentially, whether Anakin has the power to overpower Obi-Wan's defences. And well, he didn't in their fight, not even Grievous did, and we never saw anybody do it to OBi-Wan so I don;t think Anakin could.

To support Lucien's point, though Obi-Wan's chosen form is defensive by nature, the script strongly suggests that much of his giving ground was involuntary:

Which is what Obi-Wan wanted. Exhaust Anakin's caridio and surviving long enough until Anakin gasses and makes a mistake like he did when he was too tired to make the jump to high ground.

Originally posted by iheartchael
According to the Star Wars canon, Obi-Wan is a specialist of Soresu, Anakin a specialist of Djem So. Having worked with Nick on the forms I believe I can say I know them inside out and Soresu's gameplan is essentially, to whether the storm, protect oneself while conserving energy, and wait for the opponent to run out of cardio/become caresless and make a mistake. Djem So on the other hand is a berserker style, all offence with high reliance on both speed and power but also technique to skillfully overpower your opponent's defences. Now the question is esentially, whether Anakin has the power to overpower Obi-Wan's defences. And well, he didn't in their fight, not even Grievous did, and we never saw anybody do it to OBi-Wan so I don;t think Anakin could. I hope you're not a sock...



This is the no-limits fallacy. Because we're never shown the limits of Obi-Wan's defences, the assumption is that there is none--or specifically in this case, that Anakin couldn't reach it. He could. Obi-Wan's defences can be overwhelmed, it just takes either A.) more speed than he can handle (Grievous_ or B.) time to wear him out (Anakin). It took... 23 strikes per second on Grievous' behalf to overwhelm Obi-Wan in a duel that was only a couple of minutes long, if that. Anakin couldn't strike as fast, but their duel was much much longer. There was also the Force involved, something Grievous couldn't throw at Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by iheartchael
Which is what Obi-Wan wanted. Exhaust Anakin's caridio and surviving long enough until Anakin gasses and makes a mistake like he did when he was too tired to make the jump to high ground. Anakin wasn't being exhausted, he was growing stronger. Obi-Wan was becoming tired.

Yes, we are shown no limits so we cannot say that Anakin can overpower them, there is no limits to what we speculate his defences to be so I don't see how it is a fallacy. If Grievous cannot overpower them then i don't see how anakin would when grievous is probably faster and stronger. Grievous cannot use the force but obi-wan has already showed that he can defend against Anakin's TD so it shouldn;t be an issue, and as styles are designed in with force powers in mind he would have had the guard up against grievous regardless.

My interpretation is that Obi-Wan weathered the storm until Anakin's cardio ran out and he was gassed in which case he made the fatral mistake. Obi-Wan was neve rind anger, and beats anakin, nine times out of ten.

Originally posted by iheartchael
Yes, we are shown no limits so we cannot say that Anakin can overpower them, there is no limits to what we speculate his defences to be so I don't see how it is a fallacy. If Grievous cannot overpower them then i don't see how anakin would when grievous is probably faster and stronger. Grievous cannot use the force but obi-wan has already showed that he can defend against Anakin's TD so it shouldn;t be an issue, and as styles are designed in with force powers in mind he would have had the guard up against grievous regardless.

My interpretation is that Obi-Wan weathered the storm until Anakin's cardio ran out and he was gassed in which case he made the fatral mistake. Obi-Wan was neve rind anger, and beats anakin, nine times out of ten. Reading comprehension... it's a better perk than Mysterious Stranger.



Your (and my) interpretation is irrelevant. Sorry. Go read the the RotS novelization. It's more canon than you are. Here's the link to the site of Star Wars EU works. Again. Revenge of the Sith is on there, download it, read it.


Grievous did overpower them. 23 strikes per second in a 2-minute duel was all it took to overwhelm Obi-Wan's defences. Anakin was overpowering. ING. As in "in the process of". If the terrain hadn't begun to favour Obi-Wan, Anakin would have one. This is not interpretation. This is what is in the novel.


Vader wins 9/10.

NO limites fallacy much Lucien.. Just because someone AT THAT Moment is overwhelming someone DOESN'T mean they were a given to win. How many mediums do we see people getting overwhelmed at first or for most of the fight.. only to wait for an opening and win the fight. This happens in real life.. ufc... street fight... any place you can think. Just because somebody is overwhelming somebody at first... doesn't mean the outcome is certain. That's a no limits fallacy at its finest. The fact is, Kenobi style is EXACTLY hwo the fight played out.. to wait for an opening and use anakin's various weakness's against him. and that is EXACTLY what he did and WOULD DO each and everytime. IMO it would work more than fail.

Literature is likewise all about the reader's imagination and interpretation. I am entitled to mine and it is imo that Anakin was out of cardio by the time he made that mistake.

Actually Anakin was only close to overpowering him because Obi-Wan was trapped, which was also, due to the terrain. There will always be terrain. Making good use of it is what makes you a smart fighter. Without forcing Obi into a corner, Anakin does not have it in him to overpower his defences. Grievous neededf to got to 23 strikes a second to overpwoer him, anythigh less includign 20 and obi-wan could weather the storm which is extremely impressive.

Originally posted by iheartchael
Literature is likewise all about the reader's imagination and interpretation. I am entitled to mine and it is imo that Anakin was out of cardio by the time he made that mistake. I saw this line before I saw any of the others. There's no point going any further on this with you.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
NO limites fallacy much Lucien.. Just because someone AT THAT Moment is overwhelming someone DOESN'T mean they were a given to win. How many mediums do we see people getting overwhelmed at first or for most of the fight.. only to wait for an opening and win the fight. This happens in real life.. ufc... street fight... any place you can think. Just because somebody is overwhelming somebody at first... doesn't mean the outcome is certain. That's a no limits fallacy at its finest. The fact is, Kenobi style is EXACTLY hwo the fight played out.. to wait for an opening and use anakin's various weakness's against him. and that is EXACTLY what he did and WOULD DO each and everytime. IMO it would work more than fail. You know why I brought up the whole "Obi-Wan better have a lava river handy" thing? Because Obi-Wan won. In that duel, Anakin's ability to grow stronger and push Obi-Wan back ultimately didn't matter. His overconfidence and the terrain threw a monkey wrench in to what otherwise would have been a solid victory.


So in a battle in which there is no levelled terrain for Obi-Wan to take advantage of, and there is no PIS for Anakin to bow down to, Anakin will manage his victory. The victory he would have seen had the above factors not been involved.


And Good. Effing. God. I'm not going to repeat myself again. Read the damn chapter in the book. It is more canon than you.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I saw this line before I saw any of the others. There's no point going any further on this with you.



You know why I brought up the whole "Obi-Wan better have a lava river handy" thing? Because Obi-Wan won. In that duel, Anakin's ability to grow stronger and push Obi-Wan back ultimately didn't matter. His overconfidence and the terrain threw a monkey wrench in to what otherwise would have been a solid victory.


So in a battle in which there is no levelled terrain for Obi-Wan to take advantage of, and there is no PIS for Anakin to bow down to, Anakin will manage his victory. The victory he would have seen had the above factors not been involved.


And Good. Effing. God. I'm not going to repeat myself again. Read the damn chapter in the book. It is more canon than you.

Which part of the novel is contradicting what I'm saying? You're not understanding something... It DOESN'T matter about the Terrain... what matters is Kenobi's style of geared to finding ANY opening that he could and using that to his advantage. It could a simple rock in the groud... a tree... a door... ANYTHING. Lave or THAT specific terrain wasn't the only way for Kenobi to take advantage of Anakin's brash.. arrogant nature was it? Are you really arguing THAT specific terrain is the only way for Kenobi to take advantage of Anakin and wait for an opening. If so, there is really no point in taking this further. The fight played out JUST as Kenobi thought. He was confident in beating Anakin in the movie and in the novel before the fight. He knew Anakin would provide and opening and THAT IS EXACTLY what happened, and would happen more often than not.

ROTS Anakin > Count Dooku > Obi-Wan Kenobi

Although Obi-Wan may last longer against Anakin than Dooku did due to the nature of his style (pure defensive) and having personally taught Anakin.

Sith Anakin had just has his mind twisted according to Yoda. So it was the best time to defeat him, before he fully embraced the dark side without conflict and became even more powerful.

But that's not to take away from Obi-Wan's feat. He did really well to survive as long as he could against Sith Anakin.

And Kurupt Thanosi "Zone" Anakin is too powerful. That was ROTS Jedi Anakin at his peak with a moment of "pristine clarity". Obi-Wan never fought an Anakin with that much clarity. Against Zone Anakin, Yoda would be a much fairer fight. Im serious!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which part of the novel is contradicting what I'm saying? You're not understanding something... It DOESN'T matter about the Terrain... what matters is Kenobi's style of geared to finding ANY opening that he could and using that to his advantage. It could a simple rock in the groud... a tree... a door... ANYTHING. Lave or THAT specific terrain wasn't the only way for Kenobi to take advantage of Anakin's brash.. arrogant nature was it? Are you really arguing THAT specific terrain is the only way for Kenobi to take advantage of Anakin and wait for an opening. If so, there is really no point in taking this further. The fight played out JUST as Kenobi thought. He was confident in beating Anakin in the movie and in the novel before the fight. He knew Anakin would provide and opening and THAT IS EXACTLY what happened, and would happen more often than not. Anakin provided an opening by attempting to leap over his head from a decline angle. It wasn't a sabre technique, it was a retarded overconfident technique. Stop making Obi-Wan out to be some sort of defensive wizard of godly swordplay. Anakin was kicking his ass in sabres and the Force the entire fight. One moment of arrogant f*ck-up screwed Anakin over. That f*ck-up was provided by the terrain, and the plot. Remove both those factors and Anakin's got himself a cool win. But even with an uneven or hostile environment, Obi-wan will still require Plot Induced Stupidity, and a moment of poor judgement.


In these vs. fights, we don't count those. Level terrain, no advantage given to either side, Pre-Suit Vader wears Obi-Wan's defences down and kills him.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Go read the RotS novelization. I have, and its pretty much all about anakin.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which part of the novelization make it clear that Anakin would win if not for the Terrain? Can I see a quote of this please. Anakin and Kenobi for MOST of the fight were fighting on level ground and anakin WASN'T overwhelming or owning Kenobi. They were fighting on even terms. So that is CLEARLY not true. Further, Kenobi using Anakin's own weakness's against him isn't foul play or not to be factored. Anakin's boldness and arrogance WOULD ALWAYS leave such openings. All the woulda coulda shoulda.. doesn't change the fact that Kenobi DECISIVELY beat Anakin, and no amount of excuses will ever change that. Agreed

Originally posted by mnat801
I have, and its pretty much all about anakin. With the exception of the Mustafar duel, which is all seen from Obi-Wan's perspective.

Zone. Not close really.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Anakin provided an opening by attempting to leap over his head from a decline angle. It wasn't a sabre technique, it was a retarded overconfident technique. Stop making Obi-Wan out to be some sort of defensive wizard of godly swordplay. Anakin was kicking his ass in sabres and the Force the entire fight. One moment of arrogant f*ck-up screwed Anakin over. That f*ck-up was provided by the terrain, and the plot. Remove both those factors and Anakin's got himself a cool win. But even with an uneven or hostile environment, Obi-wan will still require Plot Induced Stupidity, and a moment of poor judgement.


In these vs. fights, we don't count those. Level terrain, no advantage given to either side, Pre-Suit Vader wears Obi-Wan's defences down and kills him.

Still Obi-Wan did really well to last that long against him. The vast majority of Jedi would have got cut down by Sith Anakin pretty fast. Heck even Dooku probably wouldn't have lasted that long.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Still Obi-Wan did really well to last that long against him. The vast majority of Jedi would have got cut down by Sith Anakin pretty fast. Heck even Dooku probably wouldn't have lasted that long.

Dooku would have schooled Vader at this point.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Anakin provided an opening by attempting to leap over his head from a decline angle. It wasn't a sabre technique, it was a retarded overconfident technique. Stop making Obi-Wan out to be some sort of defensive wizard of godly swordplay. Anakin was kicking his ass in sabres and the Force the entire fight. One moment of arrogant f*ck-up screwed Anakin over. That f*ck-up was provided by the terrain, and the plot. Remove both those factors and Anakin's got himself a cool win. But even with an uneven or hostile environment, Obi-wan will still require Plot Induced Stupidity, and a moment of poor judgement.


In these vs. fights, we don't count those. Level terrain, no advantage given to either side, Pre-Suit Vader wears Obi-Wan's defences down and kills him.

Actually the fights on here AREN'T always on level terrain.. That is totally false. Further, you didn't address my point, and I know exactly why.. but I'll try again. Are you saying THAT specific terrain was the ONLY way Kenobi could and would take advantage of Anakin's arrogance and brash fighting style? Are you claiming that? Fact is, just as I said, Kenobi can take advantage of said anakin's weakness EACH and EVERY time because THAT IS IN CHARACTER FOR ANAKIN TO ACT THAT WAY. These people fight in character and that is exactly in character for Anakin to do stupid shit NO MATTER the terrain. that is a point you just can't get around and is canon to skywalker and repeated over and over again via narration and depiction in ALL mediums.

You say I keep making Kenobi out to be some defensive wizard.. ummm DUH!! That is EXACTLY what he is.. AGAIN canon to the mythos of the character. You like to argue against a character clear and consistent portrayal I see, but that isn't how these argument works. Kenobi IS just that and he's proven so over and over again.

BTW.. Don't think I didn't notice you not putting up the narration that states the ONLY reason Kenobi won was because of that specific terrain.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and that is exactly in character for Anakin to do stupid shit NO MATTER the terrain.


Not really Thanosi. He was an arrogant dumb ass in his fight with Obi-Wan, but don't think that's normal for him..

CW series has shown Anakin to be tactically very smart.. Defeating military geniuses like Admiral Trench and completely turning the tide of a losing battle many a time.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Dooku would have schooled Vader at this point.

Dunno. It's arguable. It's not like Confused Sith Anakin was any less powerful than CW Anakin who consistently stalemates the Count. In fact he was probably more powerful. Dooku's force attacks would likely extend the fight for some time, but I doubt he would win with that alone (based on their previous CW fights).

But then yes, Sith Anakin was very rash, arrogant, conflicted and impulsive leading him to be a bit of a dumb ass in that fight.

Still the Count would likely have to find a way to take advantage of that the way Obi-Wan did.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really Thanosi. He was an arrogant dumb ass in his fight with Obi-Wan, but don't think that's normal for him..

CW series has shown Anakin to be tactically very smart.. Defeating military geniuses like Admiral Trench and completely turning the tide of a losing battle many a time.



Dunno. It's arguable. It's not like Confused Sith Anakin was any less powerful than CW Anakin who consistently stalemates the Count. In fact he was probably more powerful. Dooku's force attacks would likely extend the fight for some time, but I doubt he would win with that alone (based on their previous CW fights).

But then yes, Sith Anakin was very rash, arrogant, conflicted and impulsive leading him to be a bit of a dumb ass in that fight.

Still the Count would likely have to find a way to take advantage of that the way Obi-Wan did.

The HIGHEST form of Canon shows Anakin doing this OVER and OVER again. It was a KEY character flaw that was talked about AD NAUSEA in the movies and novels. I can't believe you're saying NOT REALLY. That is totally disingenuous for you to say not really. That is EXACTLY correct and he made brash arrogant moves ALL the times in the HIGHEST form of canon.. Should we go over them or will you concede that is EXACTLY spot on?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Still Obi-Wan did really well to last that long against him. The vast majority of Jedi would have got cut down by Sith Anakin pretty fast. Heck even Dooku probably wouldn't have lasted that long. I doubt that. Dooku would be better suited to f*ck with Anakin's head than Obi-Wan. Dun Moch FTW. But yeah, Obi-Wan did a good job lasting that long. But without convenient landscaping and PIS to help him out, he wouldn't have survived.




Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Actually the fights on here AREN'T always on level terrain.. That is totally false. Further, you didn't address my point, and I know exactly why.. but I'll try again. Are you saying THAT specific terrain was the ONLY way Kenobi could and would take advantage of Anakin's arrogance and brash fighting style? Are you claiming that? Fact is, just as I said, Kenobi can take advantage of said anakin's weakness EACH and EVERY time because THAT IS IN CHARACTER FOR ANAKIN TO ACT THAT WAY. These people fight in character and that is exactly in character for Anakin to do stupid shit NO MATTER the terrain. that is a point you just can't get around and is canon to skywalker and repeated over and over again via narration and depiction in ALL mediums.

You say I keep making Kenobi out to be some defensive wizard.. ummm DUH!! That is EXACTLY what he is.. AGAIN canon to the mythos of the character. You like to argue against a character clear and consistent portrayal I see, but that isn't how these argument works. Kenobi IS just that and he's proven so over and over again.

BTW.. Don't think I didn't notice you not putting up the narration that states the ONLY reason Kenobi won was because of that specific terrain. Jesus... I'm going to try this one more time, and make it as clear as I can. If you don't get it after this, there's no getting through to you.


WE DO NOT USE PIS. Plot has no bearing on these threads. "You underestimate my power while I float over a river a lava next to a sloped embankment" is not used here. Even if we set this duel on Mustafar, there's no guarantee that things are going to happen like they did. And because PIS is removed, the terrain becomes incidental. The lava river and embankment mean nothing without PIS--which we don't use. I don't know if you understand that yet, so I'll repeat it once more:



WE DO NOT USE PIS



The novel clearly states, in no uncertain terms, that Vader is stronger, faster, and more powerful than Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan Kenobi himself is the catalyst for this narration--those are HIS thoughts, HIS opinions. Experience allowed him a stretch of survival, and PIS allowed him a victory. Once PIS is gone--AS IT IS HERE--he's down to merely surviving until he's overwhelmed. Which he will be.


Stop getting hung up on my glib quip on the first page.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The HIGHEST form of Canon shows Anakin doing this OVER and OVER again. It was a KEY character flaw that was talked about AD NAUSEA in the movies and novels. I can't believe you're saying NOT REALLY. That is totally disingenuous for you to say not really. That is EXACTLY correct and he made brash arrogant moves ALL the times in the HIGHEST form of canon.. Should we go over them or will you concede that is EXACTLY spot on?

Urm yes you will have to go over them for me, because nothing's coming to mind except him rushing into Dooku in AOTC. But there's a reason he was still a padawan then.

Tell me if he's so tactically dumb how does he outsmart a military genius like Admiral Trench? And how was he the only one who worked out how to defeat the Zillo Beast? The examples from CW are endless tbh.

He was brash and arrogant, but usually in a smart and sort of selfless way. Constantly turning the tide of losing battles, where it was actually Obi-Wan telling him to be a good boy and accept the battle is lost.

Also films being higher canon doesn't nullify Anakin's CW feats unless there's a direct contradiction. Nothing happens in the CW series that Lucas doesn't want. He's the one whose created it. And there's hours and hours more canon material there than we get from the movies.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I doubt that. Dooku would be better suited to f*ck with Anakin's head than Obi-Wan. Dun Moch FTW.

Ah yes Dun Moch! Dooku is one smart, powerful and charismatic old timer!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I doubt that. Dooku would be better suited to f*ck with Anakin's head than Obi-Wan. Dun Moch FTW. But yeah, Obi-Wan did a good job lasting that long. But without convenient landscaping and PIS to help him out, he wouldn't have survived.




Jesus... I'm going to try this one more time, and make it as clear as I can. If you don't get it after this, there's no getting through to you.


WE DO NOT USE PIS. Plot has no bearing on these threads. "You underestimate my power while I float over a river a lava next to a sloped embankment" is not used here. Even if we set this duel on Mustafar, there's no guarantee that things are going to happen like they did. And because PIS is removed, the terrain becomes incidental. The lava river and embankment mean nothing without PIS--which we don't use. I don't know if you understand that yet, so I'll repeat it once more:



WE DO NOT USE PIS



The novel clearly states, in no uncertain terms, that Vader is stronger, faster, and more powerful than Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan Kenobi himself is the catalyst for this narration--those are HIS thoughts, HIS opinions. Experience allowed him a stretch of survival, and PIS allowed him a victory. Once PIS is gone--AS IT IS HERE--he's down to merely surviving until he's overwhelmed. Which he will be.


Stop getting hung up on my glib quip on the first page.

Jesus :facepalm: Let's go over this again... Do you know what IN CHARACTER means... All characters.. HERE and the comic book forums or wherever.. per forum rules fight IN CHARACTER. Now, are some of anakin's flaws... Arrogance, Brashness, fearing losing people he loved, insecure? The answer is UNQUESTIONABLY yes. I can't for the life of me understand why you keep on shouting PIS and bringing up the terrain when that isn't a point i'm arguing. I'm saying NO MATTER THE TERRAIN.. DOESN'T ELIMINATE ANAKIN'S PERPENSITY to be arrogant and brash. Does it? Now once you answer these questions.. we'll continue.. or are you gong to keep arguing a point I'm not making?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm yes you will have to go over them for me, because nothing's coming to mind except him rushing into Dooku in AOTC. But there's a reason he was still a padawan then.

Tell me if he's so tactically dumb how does he outsmart a military genius like Admiral Trench? And how was he the only one who worked out how to defeat the Zillo Beast? The examples from CW are endless tbh.

He was brash and arrogant, but usually in a smart and sort of selfless way. Constantly turning the tide of losing battles, where it was actually Obi-Wan telling him to be a good boy and accept the battle is lost.

Also films being higher canon doesn't nullify Anakin's CW feats unless there's a direct contradiction. Nothing happens in the CW series that Lucas doesn't want. He's the one whose created it. And there's hours and hours more canon material there than we get from the movies.



Ah yes Dun Moch! Dooku is one smart, powerful and charismatic old timer!

You just conceded my point so there is no real argument here... Anakin WAS brash.. was arrogant and did make stupid moves.. PERIOD. Going to the darkside didn't remove those traits they would naturally increase them. So no matter the terrain.. sith anakin would always lose to kenobi for that very reason. If he made clear errors in judgement during a HIGHER FORM of canon it certainly contradicts the cw series. If not totally, it certainly doesn't eliminate the clear flaws he showed in the movie, in fact, they make the feats of him not doing so in the series come down a little.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You just conceded my point so there is no real argument here... Anakin WAS brash.. was arrogant and did make stupid moves.. PERIOD.

I'm not seeing where it was normal for Anakin to make stupid moves.

Unorthodox moves? Yes. But stupid?

This is the guy who defeated military genius Admiral Trench. He's also the guy who quickly worked out a way to put the Zillo Beast down.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Jesus :facepalm: Let's go over this again... Do you know what IN CHARACTER means... All characters.. HERE and the comic book forums or wherever.. per forum rules fight IN CHARACTER. Now, are some of anakin's flaws... Arrogance, Brashness, fearing losing people he loved, insecure? The answer is UNQUESTIONABLY yes. I can't for the life of me understand why you keep on shouting PIS and bringing up the terrain when that isn't a point i'm arguing. I'm saying NO MATTER THE TERRAIN.. DOESN'T ELIMINATE ANAKIN'S PERPENSITY to be arrogant and brash. Does it? Now once you answer these questions.. we'll continue.. or are you gong to keep arguing a point I'm not making? And I'm saying without a convenient place for Anakin to try to jump over Obi-Wan's head because he told him he had the high ground--then there won't be any defeat of Anakin at Obi-Wan's hand. Obi-Wan will be worn down and killed as he would have been had that specific act of goading on a high embankment on the planet of Mustafar not taken place. Unless that very specific act takes place--I.E. unless everything happens again exactly as it did in the movie--then Anakin will win.



Do you comprehend that yet? We are not recreating the movie's fight scene with all the character's motivation and script. It's pure feats. PIS is not a feat, and Obi-Wan can't rely on it here. Get that through your skull. If you want to say Anakin will be brash and stupid without PIS, then you're going to have find an example of him doing that--something lacking in the RotS novel's description of the duel. A duel that is seen from Kenobi's perspective. Kenobi himself is admitting that Anakin is more powerful, stronger, and becoming more so as the fight drags on. By Obi-Wan's own admission, he was losing. You take away the script and plot necessities (I.E. "I have the high ground"/lava river) and you get a scenario that Obi-Wan cannot escape from.


Do you get it yet?


EDIT: You've managed to not get it for three pages now. I'm just going to assume ahead of time that you never will.

What Lucien is trying to say is Sith Anakin was without doubt the more powerful swordsman. And if they fought say on a Tatooine desert like where Qui-Gon and Maul first fought, then there's no doubt Anakin would destroy him.

I also don't buy this theory that it's normal for Anakin to make dumb stupid moves. That stupid jump he made was a result of his mind having just been twisted by the dark side, as Yoda would put it.

Anakin may not be an exceptionally wise or patient individual, but he is very probably a genius mechanically (C-3PO, anyone?) and tactically (for reasons DARTH POWER provided).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What Lucien is trying to say is Sith Anakin was without doubt the more powerful swordsman. And if they fought say on a Tatooine desert like where Qui-Gon and Maul first fought, then there's no doubt Anakin would destroy him.

I also don't buy this theory that it's normal for Anakin to make dumb stupid moves. That stupid jump he made was a result of his mind having just been twisted by the dark side, as Yoda would put it. well if sith anakin was such a good swordsman as you and lucien is saying, he should have taken out obi wan with ease. well theres no proof that anakin would beat kenobi on flat ground.

Originally posted by mnat801
well if sith anakin was such a good swordsman as you and lucien is saying, he should have taken out obi wan with ease.

What? No. Nobody's saying Obi-Wan's easy fodder. He definitely is not easy to take in Sabers. He's a very skilled sword master. But I'm afraid Anakin was more powerful.

Originally posted by mnat801
well theres no proof that anakin would beat kenobi on flat ground.

The proof is that according to the script Anakin kept "Forcing" Obi-Wan back. And according to the script and the novel Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on while Obi-Wan gets tired.

And tbh we can see both these things in their fight.

Oh and there's definitely no proof Obi-Wan could take ROTS Anakin on flat ground.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What? No. Nobody's saying Obi-Wan's easy fodder. He definitely is not easy to take in Sabers. He's a very skilled sword master. But I'm afraid Anakin was more powerful.



The proof is that according to the script Anakin kept "Forcing" Obi-Wan back. And according to the script and the novel Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on while Obi-Wan gets tired.

And tbh we can see both these things in their fight.

Oh and there's definitely no proof Obi-Wan could take ROTS Anakin on flat ground. The better proof is that Obi wan chopped his limbs off in the end. Thus, obi wan is the better duelist, whether anakin is more powerful or not.

Originally posted by mnat801
The better proof is that Obi wan chopped his limbs off in the end. Thus, obi wan is the better duelist, whether anakin is more powerful or not.

That would have been nice proof IF he actually did that WHILE DUELING HIM.

Originally posted by mnat801
The better proof is that Obi wan chopped his limbs off in the end. Thus, obi wan is the better duelist, whether anakin is more powerful or not. Yeah, sorry, that wasn't during the duel. Again, it's like if in the middle of boxing, we stopped, and I tried to flip over you, so you punched me in the balls. I could be a better puncher, blocker, dodger, have bigger muscles, better form... but if I decide to break character and throw caution to the win because the plot of the movie being made about us requires me to, it's not apart of the duel. That is the quintessential definition of plot induced stupidity, and we do not use that here.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That would have been nice proof IF he actually did that WHILE DUELING HIM. Well vader went to attack kenobi, and kenobi swiftly finished him off.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah, sorry, that wasn't during the duel. Again, it's like if in the middle of boxing, we stopped, and I tried to flip over you, so you punched me in the balls. I could be a better puncher, blocker, dodger, have bigger muscles, better form... but if I decide to break character and throw caution to the win because the plot of the movie being made about us requires me to, it's not apart of the duel. That is the quintessential definition of plot induced stupidity, and we do not use that here. Yes it was during the duel! Just because they stopped clashing swords doent mean that the duel doesnt stopp there. In a boxing match, the fighters dont punch non stop. they circle each other, having a liitle breather along the way, and look for an opening. just like obi wan found the opening in anakins jump. Whether or not its PIS, its what happened. And please dont deny the fact that kenobi was the better man in the end, because i bet if it was kenobi who got his limbs cut off, im pretty sure you'd argue that anakin was the better man.

Originally posted by mnat801
Yes it was during the duel! Just because they stopped clashing swords doent mean that the duel doesnt stopp there. In a boxing match, the fighters dont punch non stop. they circle each other, having a liitle breather along the way, and look for an opening. just like obi wan found the opening in anakins jump. Whether or not its PIS, its what happened. And please dont deny the fact that kenobi was the better man in the end, because i bet if it was kenobi who got his limbs cut off, im pretty sure you'd argue that anakin was the better man. Anakin is the better duelist no matter who wins or loses. That's the point of this, who is the better duelist, not who won. Don't you get that yet? The novelization of RotS puts clear as day that Anakin is a superior duelist, and a more powerful Force-user.



What matters in this forum, is feats. PIS isn't a feat; I can't seem to get that through to you. It's a very specific variable that is placed in on behalf of the plot, and that is something that we do not, and can not use in these threads. Plot variables and character motivations are prone to opinion and subjectivity, and thus, a useless thread. I think that's what you're not understanding. We literally can not use that stuff here. Do you get it yet?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Anakin is the better duelist no matter who wins or loses. That's the point of this, who is the better duelist, not who won. Don't you get that yet? The novelization of RotS puts clear as day that Anakin is a superior duelist, and a more powerful Force-user.



What matters in this forum, is feats. PIS isn't a feat; I can't seem to get that through to you. It's a very specific variable that is placed in on behalf of the plot, and that is something that we do not, and can not use in these threads. Plot variables and character motivations are prone to opinion and subjectivity, and thus, a useless thread. I think that's what you're not understanding. We literally can not use that stuff here. Do you get it yet? It doent matter what is in this forum! how can you say hes better if he lost! go watch the film, its more canon than any book.

I give up, there's no getting through your skull.

Originally posted by mnat801
It doent matter what is in this forum! how can you say hes better if he lost! go watch the film, its more canon than any book. You don't get it at all, do you? Obi-Wan took advantage of Anakins bad decision, it's as simple as that.

Originally posted by NTJack0
You don't get it at all, do you? Obi-Wan took advantage of Anakins bad decision, it's as simple as that. No, you dont get it. What you just stated is the exact reason why obi wan was the better performer. And the whole reason why this argument started was because someone denied that obi wan defeated vader. Look, just because anakin was the more aggressive dueler doesnt mean that he was the better swordsman. he was at least equally good.

Since you refuse to acknowledge canon or read the novel, there's no point talking to you.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Since you refuse to acknowledge canon or read the novel, there's no point talking to you. I do, however it seems you do not acknowledge the film. If there was no film, you probably would win this argument. But no matter what the novel says, the film is more reliable. e.g. adi killed by opress, not by grevious

The film lacks narrative, and for that the novel is accounted for. The duel in the novel ends the exact same way, the difference is that we get a personal account from Obi-Wan's perspective. The novels allow us insight in to what the characters feel at the very moment, something we can't see in films. For obvious reasons, Vader, Obi-Wan, Luke etc. aren't going to be narrating to the camera, but the book is able to. It's through this narration that we know who the better duelist really is. In the case of Phantom Menace, we know it's Maul. For RotS, we know about "Zonakin", we know how he felt, we can know Dooku's thoughts. And it's through the novel, that, no matter who won the fight, we learn that Obi-Wan is an inferior duelist and Force-user compared to Darth Vader.



This is not my opinion, nor is it yours. This is canonical fact. You don't get to cherry pick what fits just because you have a preconceived notion.

Lucas personally read, edited and approved the RotS novel. I consider it more or less G-canon. T-canon at worst.

i agree with the fact that novels provide more narrative, but anakin never got the better of obi wan, and if he WAS the better duelist, he would have broken obi wans defence and striked him down. but he didnt, therefore he is not superior to obi wan as a duelist. The film is enough proof for this! only until vader can break kenobis defence like dooku did in AOTC can you prove to me that kenobi is the inferior duelist.

And im pretty sure im being rational here.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The film lacks narrative, and for that the novel is accounted for. The duel in the novel ends the exact same way, the difference is that we get a personal account from Obi-Wan's perspective. The novels allow us insight in to what the characters feel at the very moment, something we can't see in films. For obvious reasons, Vader, Obi-Wan, Luke etc. aren't going to be narrating to the camera, but the book is able to. It's through this narration that we know who the better duelist really is. In the case of Phantom Menace, we know it's Maul. For RotS, we know about "Zonakin", we know how he felt, we can know Dooku's thoughts. And it's through the novel, that, no matter who won the fight, we learn that Obi-Wan is an inferior duelist and Force-user compared to Darth Vader.



This is not my opinion, nor is it yours. This is canonical fact. You don't get to cherry pick what fits just because you have a preconceived notion. What is canonical fact, is that it was vader whose limbs were chopped off, not kenobis. if vader was the superior duelist, he would not let this happen to him. and THAT is not MY opinion, it is fact.

Originally posted by mnat801
What is canonical fact, is that it was vader whose limbs were chopped off, not kenobis. if vader was the superior duelist, he would not let this happen to him. and THAT is not MY opinion, it is fact. facepalm


Seems you've already forgotten what PIS is. Kay, I'm done, you're never going to get it. If you refuse to read the novel, it's your own foolishness.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
facepalm


Seems you've already forgotten what PIS is. Kay, I'm done, you're never going to get it. If you refuse to read the novel, it's your own foolishness. That is some convincing responce...

Considering that no response will ever convince you, I'll take that as a compliment.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Considering that no response will ever convince you, I'll take that as a compliment. All you have told me is that a novel teaches us to realise that anakin is a better duelist, and that this PIS nonsense means i cant use clear facts from the film, which i believe is unfair. i have not been reckless in my arguments, i have used reasonable occurences from the most reliable source.

Originally posted by mnat801
All you have told me is that a novel teaches us to realise that anakin is a better duelist, and that this PIS nonsense means i cant use clear facts from the film, which i believe is unfair. Unfortunately then, this is exactly the case. You seem to understand everything else, but you're refusing to acknowledge PIS and accept canon. You have no place here if that's the case.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Unfortunately then, this is exactly the case. You seem to understand everything else, but you're refusing to acknowledge PIS and accept canon. You have no place here if that's the case. Ok, but your stating a FACT that vader is a superior duelist than obi wan. In that case, i do have the right to use any means necessary to deny that, whether this forum has specific rules not. If you said that was your opinion, however, then there is no need for me to argue.

So... if I were to state that 2+2=4, you'd feel the need to argue it? But if I opined that 2+2=5, you'd feel no need to argue it? You feel the need to argue against fact, but utterly accept subjective opinion?





The f*ck?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So... if I were to state that 2+2=4, you'd feel the need to argue it? But if I opined that 2+2=5, you'd feel no need to argue it? You feel the need to argue against fact, but utterly accept subjective opinion?





The f*ck? NO. I meant that your are stating something that is a fact, when it actually isn't.

Originally posted by mnat801
NO. I meant that your are stating something that is a fact, when it actually isn't. Question: do you understand Star Wars canon, or have you just been (figuratively) nodding along whenever I bring it up?

Originally posted by mnat801
i agree with the fact that novels provide more narrative, but anakin never got the better of obi wan, and if he WAS the better duelist, he would have broken obi wans defence and striked him down. but he didnt, therefore he is not superior to obi wan as a duelist. The film is enough proof for this! only until vader can break kenobis defence like dooku did in AOTC can you prove to me that kenobi is the inferior duelist.

And im pretty sure im being rational here.

Jesus Christ man, in Star Wars a Jedi's power is determined by their focus. Obi-Wan was focused and determined to defeat Anakin, Anakin was conflicted, shown crying right before and just force choked his wife.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Jesus Christ man, in Star Wars a Jedi's power is determined by their focus. Obi-Wan was focused and determined to defeat Anakin, Anakin was conflicted, shown crying right before and just force choked his wife. Yes, I know this, so whats your point? Im not arguing that obi wan was a better duelist than anakin, rather the fact that anakin is not a better duelist than obi wan! This is clearly shown in the ROTS film!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Question: do you understand Star Wars canon, or have you just been (figuratively) nodding along whenever I bring it up? I do understand SW canon. So where does it ever say that anakin IS a better duelist than obi wan?

The novel. Go read it.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The novel. Go read it. Ok well if this novel did indeed state that vader was a better duelist than obi wan, then good for you. But I still personally believe that this is not true, with reference to what ive seen in the film.

I guess a Vader vs. Palpatine thread would be a spite thread. All Vader has to do is pick Palpatine up and throw him down a reactor shaft, because that's what happened in the film.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I guess a Vader vs. Palpatine thread would be a spite thread. All Vader has to do is pick Palpatine up and throw him down a reactor shaft, because that's what happened in the film. We could say thats due to sids being so suprised, eg how maul was suprised when kenobi cut him in half.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Jesus Christ man, in Star Wars a Jedi's power is determined by their focus. Obi-Wan was focused and determined to defeat Anakin, Anakin was conflicted, shown crying right before and just force choked his wife.

Originally posted by mnat801
Yes, I know this, so whats your point? Im not arguing that obi wan was a better duelist than anakin, rather the fact that anakin is not a better duelist than obi wan! This is clearly shown in the ROTS film!

I assume, he means, that Anakin wasn't able to give 100% from himself when he confronted Obi-Wan.
When Anakin was giving 100% from himself, he was able to defeat people from Dooku's league, which was far above Obi-wan's.

If my interpretation of his post is correct, then I agree with that.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Anakin is the better duelist no matter who wins or loses. That's the point of this, who is the better duelist, not who won. Don't you get that yet? The novelization of RotS puts clear as day that Anakin is a superior duelist, and a more powerful Force-user.



What matters in this forum, is feats. PIS isn't a feat; I can't seem to get that through to you. It's a very specific variable that is placed in on behalf of the plot, and that is something that we do not, and can not use in these threads. Plot variables and character motivations are prone to opinion and subjectivity, and thus, a useless thread. I think that's what you're not understanding. We literally can not use that stuff here. Do you get it yet?

Post the narration that says Anakin is the clear superior duelist please. I recall no such narration. Furthermore, Anakin DIDN"T prove to be the better duelist and I don't you keep spouting this rhetoric. Kenobi in fact, proved to be superior. You can scream PIS till you can't breath anymore but there was no such thing. They fight IN CHARACTER ON THIS FORUM. It was IN CHARACTER FOR ANAKIN to try such an arrogant move. Period. That isn't PIS, that is Anakin fighting in character.

Originally posted by mnat801
We could say thats due to sids being so suprised, eg how maul was suprised when kenobi cut him in half.

That's PIS dude... that's what LL is referring to. The same philosophy holds true for the Vader/Kenobi duel in RotS.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Post the narration that says Anakin is the clear superior duelist please. I recall no such narration. Furthermore, Anakin DIDN"T prove to be the better duelist and I don't you keep spouting this rhetoric. Kenobi in fact, proved to be superior. You can scream PIS till you can't breath anymore but there was no such thing. They fight IN CHARACTER ON THIS FORUM. It was IN CHARACTER FOR ANAKIN to try such an arrogant move. Period. That isn't PIS, that is Anakin fighting in character. No. I'm just giving up at this point.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Post the narration that says Anakin is the clear superior duelist please. I recall no such narration. Furthermore, Anakin DIDN"T prove to be the better duelist and I don't you keep spouting this rhetoric. Kenobi in fact, proved to be superior. You can scream PIS till you can't breath anymore but there was no such thing. They fight IN CHARACTER ON THIS FORUM. It was IN CHARACTER FOR ANAKIN to try such an arrogant move. Period. That isn't PIS, that is Anakin fighting in character. THANK YOU

Originally posted by Zett
I assume, he means, that Anakin wasn't able to give 100% from himself when he confronted Obi-Wan.
When Anakin was giving 100% from himself, he was able to defeat people from Dooku's league, which was far above Obi-wan's.

If my interpretation of his post is correct, then I agree with that. Yes, thats true, but ive already said in this thread that Obi wan would not have the total mindset of killing his padawan. Therefore he wouldnt have given 100% like he would against a real enemy (eg grevious) because he's just found out that his "brother that he loved" turned to the dark side. That's probably why he was always on the defensive. Thats also why at the near the end he tried to say its over.

Originally posted by mnat801
That's probably why he was always on the defensive.

True we all know Obi-Wan is usually a very aggressive and offensive combatant

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It was IN CHARACTER FOR ANAKIN to try such an arrogant move. Period. That isn't PIS, that is Anakin fighting in character.

I'm still not buying it was in his character to do that. When else does he do such stupidly arrogant moves like that? Maybe that was in character for the newly twisted to the dark side Sith Anakin. But there's no way I see Jedi Knight Anakin making that move.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
True we all know Obi-Wan is usually a very aggressive and offensive combatant



I'm still not buying it was in his character to do that. When else does he do such stupidly arrogant moves like that? Maybe that was in character for the newly twisted to the dark side Sith Anakin. But there's no way I see Jedi Knight Anakin making that move.

Throughout Anakin's ENTIRE history he made such moves. This was WELL DOCUMENTED THROUGH EACH MOVIE. Shit, Anakin even says so himself.. Obi is going to be pissed at me again for making this stupid move or that stupid move. I've lost my lighsaber again.. Obi will be really pissed. Going with the princess to try and help out Obi against dooku and millions of his army.. and getting captured.. bad move. OVER and OVER again he's made such moves and you go.. nuh uh.. I don't think he does such things.. WTF.. Did you even see the movie and the clear presentation of them and this being the case?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Throughout Anakin's ENTIRE history he made such moves. This was WELL DOCUMENTED THROUGH EACH MOVIE. Shit, Anakin even says so himself.. Obi is going to be pissed at me again for making this stupid move or that stupid move. I've lost my lighsaber again.. Obi will be really pissed. Going with the princess to try and help out Obi against dooku and millions of his army.. and getting captured.. bad move. OVER and OVER again he's made such moves and you go.. nuh uh.. I don't think he does such things.. WTF.. Did you even see the movie and the clear presentation of them and this being the case?

What?? So a Padawan occasionally losing his Lightsaber = An obvious future dumbass Jedi Knight who will clearly make a dumb and needless suicide jump??

Ashoka lost her Lightsaber in the episode "Lightsaber Lost" so I guess she's also obviously a dumbass who would make the same move??

And FYI it was Padme's decision to go try and save Obi-Wan in AOTC. So I guess Padme's also a clear dumb ass who would also make a needless suicide jump?!

The Clone Wars is the only series that properly shows Anakin as a Jedi Knight. And it's shown Skywalker fighting alongside Obi-Wan and other Masters like Mace Windu. And you know what? Skywalker's been shown to be smarter than any of them almost every time.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Post the narration that says Anakin is the clear superior duelist please. I recall no such narration.

I believe he was referring to this:

Dead hands spasmed on triggers and blaster bolts sizzled through impossibly intricate lattices of ricochet.
Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back, and the bolts flared between their blades until their galvening faded and the particles of the packeted beams dispersed into radioactive fog.....

A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into the wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned.


If that doesn't show Anakin was clearly the superior combatant then I really don't know what does!!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Throughout Anakin's ENTIRE history he made such moves. This was WELL DOCUMENTED THROUGH EACH MOVIE. Shit, Anakin even says so himself.. Obi is going to be pissed at me again for making this stupid move or that stupid move. I've lost my lighsaber again.. Obi will be really pissed. Going with the princess to try and help out Obi against dooku and millions of his army.. and getting captured.. bad move. OVER and OVER again he's made such moves and you go.. nuh uh.. I don't think he does such things.. WTF.. Did you even see the movie and the clear presentation of them and this being the case?


If Anakin is so full of "stupid moves" in which Obi Wan can take advantage of each and every time, I wonder why their fight lasted so long. I wonder why Obi Wan took advantage of Anakin's stupid moves only after gaining the high ground. Why would Obi Wan want to purposely tire himself out like that?

Anakin has been noted to be extremely reckless many times, and has backed it up in all medias. I don't see how thats in question.

What's in question is Obi Wan's ability to take advantage of this and win each and every time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin has been noted to be extremely reckless many times, and has backed it up in all medias. I don't see how thats in question.

Without that "recklessness" he never would have defeated Admiral Trench.

There's a difference between what the Jedi consider reckless and what's clearly a dumb move. It's definitely not normal for him to make such a dumb move. In fact he's actually probably smarter than Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Without that "recklessness" he never would have defeated Admiral Trench.

There's a difference between what the Jedi consider reckless and what's clearly a dumb move. It's definitely not normal for him to make such a dumb move. In fact he's actually probably smarter than Obi-Wan.

Without that recklessness he'd probably still have all his limbs by the age of 25.

But he's much less wise.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What?? So a Padawan occasionally losing his Lightsaber = An obvious future dumbass Jedi Knight who will clearly make a dumb and needless suicide jump??

Ashoka lost her Lightsaber in the episode "Lightsaber Lost" so I guess she's also obviously a dumbass who would make the same move??

And FYI it was Padme's decision to go try and save Obi-Wan in AOTC. So I guess Padme's also a clear dumb ass who would also make a needless suicide jump?!

The Clone Wars is the only series that properly shows Anakin as a Jedi Knight. And it's shown Skywalker fighting alongside Obi-Wan and other Masters like Mace Windu. And you know what? Skywalker's been shown to be smarter than any of them almost every time.



I believe he was referring to this:

Dead hands spasmed on triggers and blaster bolts sizzled through impossibly intricate lattices of ricochet.
Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back, and the bolts flared between their blades until their galvening faded and the particles of the packeted beams dispersed into radioactive fog.....

A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into the wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned.


If that doesn't show Anakin was clearly the superior combatant then I really don't know what does!!

In the Clone Wars which you keep referencing that shows Anakin is so tactical and smart.. is the very movie he makes another stupid move in the highest form of canon. Very much like the one he made agaisnt dooku.. He tried to attack Dooku by himsefl when Kenobi already told him not to and they must do it together... The very time period you reference has he making another stupid bold move. As Neph says... this is a CONSTANT theme throughout ALL the movies and even books. How some of you can argue that it's not in character for him to make bold.. rash.. arrogant moves is beyond me.

As far as your quote goes.. I pray you're using good sarcasm.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Anakin is so full of "stupid moves" in which Obi Wan can take advantage of each and every time, I wonder why their fight lasted so long. I wonder why Obi Wan took advantage of Anakin's stupid moves only after gaining the high ground. Why would Obi Wan want to purposely tire himself out like that?

Question.. Is it well documented that Anakin makes bold.. rash.. arrogant.. stupid moves? Simple. It's TOTALLY wiithin character for him to do so and that is exactly what he did. That isn't PIS.. that is anakin fighting in character. Smart at first.. but eventually he gets reckless.

Obi Wan is definitely a clever fighter, but without those same exact circumstances I don't see Obi Wan pulling off a victory. Most likely Anakin will eventually overpower Obi Wan. Obi Wan did all he could just to last as long as he did on Mustafar.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Question.. Is it well documented that Anakin makes bold.. rash.. arrogant.. stupid moves? Simple. It's TOTALLY wiithin character for him to do so and that is exactly what he did. That isn't PIS.. that is anakin fighting in character. Smart at first.. but eventually he gets reckless.

Anakin may be reckless, but he's not stupid. Anakin's stupidity was PIS.

To these guys, PIS doesn't exist, Sids.

When the character has a history of such stupidity, it's CIS. Anakin being reckless and leaping before he's looked is a notable part of his character. Therefore, it's Character Induced Stupidity.

I've always seen CIS as just a subsection of PIS. Characters becoming stupid for the sake of the plot.

I do believe the brilliant user known as Gideon coined the term. The more I learn about that guy, the more I like him.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I've always seen CIS as just a subsection of PIS. Characters becoming stupid for the sake of the plot.

Said characters were always stupid.

CIS is much more excusable than PIS. In PIS the plot bends towards the stupid in order to justify itself. In CIS the stupidity is a natural part of the plot, established beforehand.

Yeah, but Lucien's argument is decidedly far more logical than his opponents'... Anakin's recklessness hasn't handicapped him in every fight he's been in and he's shown enormous talent as a military tactician and engineer. To be frank, he's probably a genius.

As a child slave he was a mechanical prodigy and expert pilot. The EU has given us enough examples of his intellect to override his retardation in Ep. II and III. He's a smart guy and a very capable, clever combatant. But the plot needed him to lose to Obi-Wan, so... dumb that f*cker up for a sec.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Anakin is so full of "stupid moves" in which Obi Wan can take advantage of each and every time, I wonder why their fight lasted so long. I wonder why Obi Wan took advantage of Anakin's stupid moves only after gaining the high ground. Why would Obi Wan want to purposely tire himself out like that? Because thats obi wans style. Remember, he uses form soresu. Thats why.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What?? So a Padawan occasionally losing his Lightsaber = An obvious future dumbass Jedi Knight who will clearly make a dumb and needless suicide jump??

Ashoka lost her Lightsaber in the episode "Lightsaber Lost" so I guess she's also obviously a dumbass who would make the same move??

And FYI it was Padme's decision to go try and save Obi-Wan in AOTC. So I guess Padme's also a clear dumb ass who would also make a needless suicide jump?!

The Clone Wars is the only series that properly shows Anakin as a Jedi Knight. And it's shown Skywalker fighting alongside Obi-Wan and other Masters like Mace Windu. And you know what? Skywalker's been shown to be smarter than any of them almost every time.



I believe he was referring to this:

Dead hands spasmed on triggers and blaster bolts sizzled through impossibly intricate lattices of ricochet.
Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back, and the bolts flared between their blades until their galvening faded and the particles of the packeted beams dispersed into radioactive fog.....

A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into the wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned.


If that doesn't show Anakin was clearly the superior combatant then I really don't know what does!! I don't understand how these two examples sum up the fact that anakins the better duelist. It just explains that obi wan was struggling at a point in the duel. The reason why I dont believe this sums it up is because if we look at some of obi wans other duels, he seems to struggle sometimes - for example in TCW where he struggles at times against grevious, however that didnt sum up the fact that grevious was a better duelist... You know what I mean?

I dont think anyone can actually state that any duelist is clearly superior to another unless it clearly shown. Imo that's not a good enough example, seeing that obi wan suffered no casaulties and ended the duel himself.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What's in question is Obi Wan's ability to take advantage of this and win each and every time. Well, he did in the end. And what do you mean win every time, im pretty sure they only dueled each other that one time in ROTS

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Without that "recklessness" he never would have defeated Admiral Trench.

There's a difference between what the Jedi consider reckless and what's clearly a dumb move. It's definitely not normal for him to make such a dumb move. In fact he's actually probably smarter than Obi-Wan. It is true, anakin has been very smart in many of TCW episodes, but I also believe he has been reckless at times. A perfect example is when he ignored his master and went to immediately attack dooku in AOTC, resulting in him being hit by force lightning.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
To these guys, PIS doesn't exist, Sids. If we took that into account, we could pretty much come up with an excuse for every single lightsaber duel's outcome. e.g anakin HAD TO kill dooku otherwise he wouldnt have become sids apprentice.

So based on that, I could argue that Dooku was always a superior duelist than anakin, which you'd probably think is ridiculous. Hence the reason I believe Anakin being superior to obi wan is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
As a child slave he was a mechanical prodigy and expert pilot. The EU has given us enough examples of his intellect to override his retardation in Ep. II and III. He's a smart guy and a very capable, clever combatant. But the plot needed him to lose to Obi-Wan, so... dumb that f*cker up for a sec. No, because being a smart engineer an expert pilot has nothing to do with his aggressive fighting style.

Look buddy, I know you don't understand what PIS is. And I know you don't get what we're talking about. I also know you refuse to read the novel and accept canon. So... no point discussing anything with you.


I also know you've not spotted the edit button.

To attempt to sum this thread up, I believe its fair to say that there are no clear or obvious sources that actually state who is the better combatant out of the two. However it is totally reasonable for people to have their own opinions. And my OPINION, given the duel on mustafar through the vision of the film, Kenobi is the better duelist.

You are welcome to argue my opinion, but please dont disrespect it. that.

Your opinion is moot next to canon. Again, just because you refuse to accept canon or even bother to read the novel, which states explicitly from Obi-Wan's viewpoint, that Anakin, once fallen to the Dark Side (Vader) is BETTER than him, doesn't make you right. Stop putting ignoring that and stop saying that it is only opinion. IT IS NOT.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Look buddy, I know you don't understand what PIS is. And I know you don't get what we're talking about. I also know you refuse to read the novel and accept canon. So... no point discussing anything with you.


I also know you've not spotted the edit button. Look buddy, maybe i dont know what PIS is, but what I do know is that you actually havnt even attempted to come up with one source that proves anakin being the better duelist. Its not that I refuse to read the novel, its just that I dont have one, and im not going to search and read a whole book just to look for the statements that prove anakin being the better duelist. And you dont know me, so dont make assumptions like that. What canon? when did you give me a source to accept?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Your opinion is moot next to canon. Again, just because you refuse to accept canon or even bother to read the novel, which states explicitly from Obi-Wan's viewpoint, that Anakin, once fallen to the Dark Side (Vader) is BETTER than him, doesn't make you right. Stop putting ignoring that and stop saying that it is only opinion. IT IS NOT. What are you smoking mate!? IT IS MY OPINION! whether I am wrong or right. And my opinion is not moot, if i can say straight away that its backed up by the fact that it was obi wan that was left standing in the duel, not anakin. And its SO ironic how you have said many, many times that the novel explicitly states that anakin is better, yet you have not come up with a single example backing that statement.

Like ive being trying to say all along, im not stating that im right, only that its my opinion, but you however seem to think you hold all the cards, in which you dont.

Apparently your memory has been destroyed, because I stated a short while ago that I refuse to quote the novels. I've hand-typed out whole passages from the books on two separate occasions years past that prove what I'm arguing, and I refuse to do it a third time. I've already posted (twice) the link to a website where you can download a PDF of every Star Wars EU novel, so you can read the book yourself. Here it is for a third and final time. If you still refuse to read the novel, fell free to buy a novelty dunce hat.


And stop operating under the assumption that your opinion is equivalent to canon. It's not.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Apparently your memory has been destroyed, because I stated a short while ago that I refuse to quote the novels. I've hand-typed out whole passages from the books on two separate occasions years past that prove what I'm arguing, and I refuse to do it a third time. I've already posted (twice) the link to a website where you can download a PDF of every Star Wars EU novel, so you can read the book yourself. Here it is for a third and final time. If you still refuse to read the novel, fell free to buy a novelty dunce hat.


And stop operating under the assumption that your opinion is equivalent to canon. It's not. First of all, I do remember you stating that. I have only recently been on this forum, so thats why I didnt know of your passages. But if you think about it, it doesnt make sense to make a statement and not back it up, regardless of the fact that you have already explaned it in other threads. And secondly, how many times do I have to get it through your head that im not trying to make my opinion equivalent to canon. When did I ever say that!? Im only trying to back up my opinions with examples, not so that they are correct! Do you even know what an opinion is?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In the Clone Wars which you keep referencing that shows Anakin is so tactical and smart.. is the very movie he makes another stupid move in the highest form of canon. Very much like the one he made agaisnt dooku.. He tried to attack Dooku by himsefl when Kenobi already told him not to and they must do it together... The very time period you reference has he making another stupid bold move. As Neph says... this is a CONSTANT theme throughout ALL the movies and even books. How some of you can argue that it's not in character for him to make bold.. rash.. arrogant moves is beyond me.


You seem to be conveniently forgetting one minor detail. Which was against the same opponent in ROTS Obi-Wan says "Together this time.."
to which Anakin replies "I was juust about to say that.."

And he says this despite being multiple times more powerful than he was in AOTC.

So do you get it yet? It was not in character at all for Jedi Knight Anakin to make a needlessly dumb suicide move.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
As far as your quote goes.. I pray you're using good sarcasm.

Whatever. That passage clearly showed Anakin was overpowering Obi-Wan the whole fight. Even the script says a couple of times "Anakin FORCES Obi-Wan back."

Originally posted by Nephthys
When the character has a history of such stupidity, it's CIS.

Where exactly does Jedi Knight Anakin have a history of such stupidity??

I'm still not seeing that. As if Sidious would want such a complete dumb ass as an apprentice.

Originally posted by mnat801
I don't understand how these two examples sum up the fact that anakins the better duelist.

They clearly show he was the superior combatant.

Originally posted by mnat801
It is true, anakin has been very smart in many of TCW episodes, but I also believe he has been reckless at times. A perfect example is when he ignored his master and went to immediately attack dooku in AOTC, resulting in him being hit by force lightning.

Answered above. Jedi Knight Anakin, hero of the CW was not stupid at all. Even when he was reckless he was always very smart the way he went about it.

I'm still waiting for ANY NARRATION during ROTS novelization that states Anakin was the superior duelist. ANY Narration... You guys keep clamoring about such narration.. when none exists. The narration DP posted said NO SUCH THING. It falls in line with Kenobi fighting his defensive style NOT that Anakin was his superior in swordplay.

You guys can scream PIS all you want but that doesn't change the fact that it's more to do with being IN CHARACTER than anything else. There was no PIS. Anakin is prone to making bold rash ARROGANT moves. he felt he was superior to Kenobi and could beat him with ease. He stated as mcuh at the start of the fight. When he believes this... he can be reckless and rash. that is EXACTLY what happened and very much in character for Anakin. That isn't not PIS. You guys need to look up the definition of PIS on this board.

You guys act like Kenobi was terrible outmatched and only one because of the stupid move Kenobi makes. Not true, Kenobi survied longer than Dooku did before the stupid move.. So clearly, Kenobi was very much in the fight.. WAITING FOR HIS OPPORTUNITY.. ya know.. just like his style is MADE TO DO. He got one.. and took advantage. Period. If Kenobi was so concerned why would Yoda trust him and BELIEVE he would kill Anakin. Why did Kenobi state.. I will do what I must... SAYING HE MUST KILL ANAKIN EVEN THOUGH HE DOESN'T want to. Seems like he and Yoda certainly believed he could compete with and even beat Anakin... Guess what.. they were RIGHT

KT no one's saying Obi-Wan can't compete with Anakin and that he would stomp him any day of the week.

I give Kenobi full credit for lasting so long against Anakin. Much longer than Count Dooku lasted.

And yes Kenobi does usually use good tactics to get the better of his opponents.

All we're arguing is if the duel took place on more even ground, then Anakin would have eventually tired Obi-Wan down and battered through his defenses.

We're also saying that even on UnEven ground, Jedi Knight Anakin would be much much less likely to make dumb moves and even fall for such tactics in the first place.

And I should note that you started this thread and specifically made it "Zone Anakin" as the combatant. That was Anakin with "Pristine Clarity." If you think someone with Pristine Clarity of thought would make such a move then you and I have a very different definition of what Pristine Clarity is.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm still waiting for ANY NARRATION during ROTS novelization that states Anakin was the superior duelist. ANY Narration... You guys keep clamoring about such narration.. when none exists. The narration DP posted said NO SUCH THING. It falls in line with Kenobi fighting his defensive style NOT that Anakin was his superior in swordplay.

You guys can scream PIS all you want but that doesn't change the fact that it's more to do with being IN CHARACTER than anything else. There was no PIS. Anakin is prone to making bold rash ARROGANT moves. he felt he was superior to Kenobi and could beat him with ease. He stated as mcuh at the start of the fight. When he believes this... he can be reckless and rash. that is EXACTLY what happened and very much in character for Anakin. That isn't not PIS. You guys need to look up the definition of PIS on this board.

You guys act like Kenobi was terrible outmatched and only one because of the stupid move Kenobi makes. Not true, Kenobi survied longer than Dooku did before the stupid move.. So clearly, Kenobi was very much in the fight.. WAITING FOR HIS OPPORTUNITY.. ya know.. just like his style is MADE TO DO. He got one.. and took advantage. Period. If Kenobi was so concerned why would Yoda trust him and BELIEVE he would kill Anakin. Why did Kenobi state.. I will do what I must... SAYING HE MUST KILL ANAKIN EVEN THOUGH HE DOESN'T want to. Seems like he and Yoda certainly believed he could compete with and even beat Anakin... Guess what.. they were RIGHT You couldn't have put it any clearer.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
KT no one's saying Obi-Wan can't compete with Anakin and that he would stomp him any day of the week.

I give Kenobi full credit for lasting so long against Anakin. Much longer than Count Dooku lasted.

And yes Kenobi does usually use good tactics to get the better of his opponents.

All we're arguing is if the duel took place on more even ground, then Anakin would have eventually tired Obi-Wan down and battered through his defenses.

We're also saying that even on UnEven ground, Jedi Knight Anakin would be much much less likely to make dumb moves and even fall for such tactics in the first place.

And I should note that you started this thread and specifically made it "Zone Anakin" as the combatant. That was Anakin with "Pristine Clarity." If you think someone with Pristine Clarity of thought would make such a move then you and I have a very different definition of what Pristine Clarity is. Yes, on even ground its possible for jedi knight anakin to defeat kenobi, I agree with that. But I also believe that Obi wan could also defeat anakin on flat ground. However, given the fact that kenobi took advantage of the uneven ground on mustafar, anakin/vader as a very skiiled combatant should have also used that to his advantage as well.

Also, based on what you've just said, i've been given the wrong impression of what you guys were actually arguing. But according to lucien, he was stating that anakin/vader IS a superior duelist to kenobi period. Which I immediately disagree with.

Originally posted by mnat801
But according to lucien, he was stating that anakin/vader IS a superior duelist to kenobi period. Which I immediately disagree with.

Anakin clearly is a more Powerful duelist than Kenobi. That's why it was Anakin who kept Forcing Obi-Wan backwards and not the other way around.

And don't give me that crap that it was his style. Because the script makes it clear he was beong FORCED Backwards. He didn't move backwards out of his own accord.

Anakin also kicked him a lot. And those kicks put Obi-Wan on the floor a few times. Whilst I don't remember it happeneing vice versa.

^ Just re-checked. He never kicked Kenobi to the floor. But his kicks were clearly harming him (especially the one to the face), and had Obi-Wan backing away further and further.

It's clear in the portion of the fight that was on flat ground that Anakin was the superior combatant.

So Obi-Wan HAD TO take advantage of the terrain to win, or even just to keep in the fight. But as a duelist Anakin was definitely superior. The first half of the fight clearly shows that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Just re-checked. He never kicked Kenobi to the floor. But his kicks were clearly harming him (especially the one to the face), and had Obi-Wan backing away further and further.

It's clear in the portion of the fight that was on flat ground that Anakin was the superior combatant.

So Obi-Wan HAD TO take advantage of the terrain to win, or even just to keep in the fight. But as a duelist Anakin was definitely superior. The first half of the fight clearly shows that.

Why do you keep saying CLEARLY.. It wasn't CLEAR at all in fact. Anakin tried a force push and was promptly stalemated. Kenobi also landed shots on anakin... You act like Anakin is the only one who did. Not ture. You keep making the mistake of viewing Kenobi backing up more as him being inferior and that isn't close to true or correct. In fact, it's quite the opposite. That is exactly how Kenobi fights with his style and nothing more. Fact is, Kenobi beat Anakin with Anakin fighting in Character. You can make a thread with Anakin not figthing in character and totally smart and that is fine. But unless specified he fights in character and Kenobi more times than not will take advantage of Anakin's mistakes.

Anakin would win after a long fight.

It was NOT clear that anakin was superior for the first portion of the battle, it was very even. And you can't take half of a fight into consideration and not the rest. Regardless of the proof of anakin forcing obi wan back, kicks etc, he never actually got near to the point where he was close to killing obi wan. It was still a very even match, and so anakin can't actually be better than him. theres no proof of anakin defeating obi wan, only obi wan defeating anakin.

And regardless of terrain, it was a very fair 1 on 1 duel, a long, hard win for kenobi, but still a win.

Originally posted by mnat801
Regardless of the proof of anakin forcing obi wan back, kicks etc, he never actually got near to the point where he was close to killing obi wan.

Really??

So at 1:07 to 1:15 he didn't come even close to killing Obi-Wan???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

You're fighting an endless battle, DP. There's no getting through these guys' skulls.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why do you keep saying CLEARLY.. It wasn't CLEAR at all in fact. Anakin tried a force push and was promptly stalemated. Kenobi also landed shots on anakin...

Lol the kicks Obi-Wan landed on Anakin were much fewer in number and hardly effected Anakin in the slightest.

Also the stalemated force push effected Anakin A LOT LESS than it did Obi-Wan. Anakin didn't even take a second to rest and jumped right back to Obi-Wan whilst Obi-Wan was still getting himself back up.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You act like Anakin is the only one who did. Not ture. You keep making the mistake of viewing Kenobi backing up more as him being inferior and that isn't close to true or correct. In fact, it's quite the opposite. That is exactly how Kenobi fights with his style and nothing more.

Not true. He was backing up way too far in this fight. And Anakin was clearly getting some hurtful kicks in. Not to mention almost killing him with the choke.

The script (written by Lucas himself) makes it perfectly clear that Obi-Wan was being "FORCED" backwards. So it wasn't his choice/strategy to back up that much. And it's certainly Not in his style to take a kick to the face Lol.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Fact is, Kenobi beat Anakin with Anakin fighting in Character. You can make a thread with Anakin not figthing in character and totally smart and that is fine. But unless specified he fights in character and Kenobi more times than not will take advantage of Anakin's mistakes.

I give up arguing that it's not in character for Jedi Knight Anakin to make stupid needless suicide moves moves in a fight. Your having to lowball him to argue that Obi-Wan wins.

It was only in Character for the newly turned Sith Anakin whose mind had just been twisted like Yoda explains himself. That's why Yoda knew if they act right now Obi-Wan could have a chance to take him before he completely embraces the Dark Side with no conflict and becomes even more powerful.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You're fighting an endless battle, DP. There's no getting through these guys' skulls.

I'm beginning to see that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol the kicks Obi-Wan landed on Anakin were much fewer in number and hardly effected Anakin in the slightest.

Also the stalemated force push effected Anakin A LOT LESS than it did Obi-Wan. Anakin didn't even take a second to rest and jumped right back to Obi-Wan whilst Obi-Wan was still getting himself back up.



Not true. He was backing up way too far in this fight. And Anakin was clearly getting some hurtful kicks in. Not to mention almost killing him with the choke.

The script (written by Lucas himself) makes it perfectly clear that Obi-Wan was being "FORCED" backwards. So it wasn't his choice/strategy to back up that much. And it's certainly Not in his style to take a kick to the face Lol.



I give up arguing that it's not in character for Jedi Knight Anakin to make stupid needless suicide moves moves in a fight. Your having to lowball him to argue that Obi-Wan wins.

It was only in Character for the newly turned Sith Anakin whose mind had just been twisted like Yoda explains himself. That's why Yoda knew if they act right now Obi-Wan could have a chance to take him before he completely embraces the Dark Side with no conflict and becomes even more powerful.



I'm beginning to see that.

Okay, let's go over this because clearly you're viewing things very skewed one way and not open to anything else. You say Anakin's kicks were effecting Kenobi more.. NOT TRUE. Kenobo lands a ***** slap and STRAIGHT KEEP ANAKIN ON HIS BACK ON THE GROUND. Long enough for Kenobi to stand over him force call his sword and proceed to try and kill Anakin. There was no other strike Landed in the fight that kept either down as long as that. So that right there destroys your theory that Anakin strikes were effecting him more. In fact, it's the exact opposite.

Then you claim the force push effected Kenobi more.. why... wait for it.. wait for it.. Because Kenobi takes a little longer to get up and doesn't bounce around the room like an idiot jumping at skywalker? That is the reason. Sorry I saw nothing fo the sort there. I saw Kenobi not seeing the point in rushing somebody.. ya know.. because that just isn't what he does. The telling part of the scene was the STALEMATE on force powers. Which again shows Kenobi was very much in the fight and fighting on even terms. So that part has been proven incorrect.

Let me ask you this.. Does Anakin have an arrogance problem throughout the movies? If he believes he's superior to someone or really in general.. is he prone to making rash bold moves? It's a simple question that is shown to be throughout all fomss of star wars lore. So if he believes he is so much more superior than Kenobi.. which he clearly did... why would he be prone to make mistakes EACH AND EVERY TIME they fought.. with Kenob's style playing right into that... Holding him off.. holding him off. waiting for said mistake. Why isn't that a likely outcome more times than not. Is Anakin suddenly not going to think he's superior and not make bold rash moves? NO.. he will.

Just because somebody doesn't view a scene or a fight in the same vein doesn't mean their views are dismissed and we have thick skulls. I've used PRIMARY CANON to support my theory and there is no getting aroudn that fact. I see NOTHIGN NOTHING to suggest via narration that Anakin was the superior duelist. I've asked time and time agian to produce said narration and I've gotten.. Anakin was forcing Kenobi back.. HUH.. that is the smoking gun? Please that is a water gun not a AK. Shit it's not even a super soaker. Speaking of forcing back.. Do you watch bocing? If so, watch Nelson vs. Whitaker... Shit even watch Ramirez vs. Whitaker... or literally countless examples in boxing... watch a PBF fight... They are FORCED back throughout the fight.. but does that mean they are losing? No they are not.. that is THEIR STYLE and they are in fact WINNING. Watch countless UFC fights.. countless boxing matches.. real life fights.. being forced back is not indicative of always losing. Period.

^Agreed.

Saying that a defencive styled swordman was losing a duel because he was... on the defencive is stupid. Kenobi did what he needed to do... protect himelf until he found an opening to exploit, which is exactly what he did.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay, let's go over this because clearly you're viewing things very skewed one way and not open to anything else. You say Anakin's kicks were effecting Kenobi more.. NOT TRUE. Kenobo lands a ***** slap and STRAIGHT KEEP ANAKIN ON HIS BACK ON THE GROUND. Long enough for Kenobi to stand over him force call his sword and proceed to try and kill Anakin. There was no other strike Landed in the fight that kept either down as long as that. So that right there destroys your theory that Anakin strikes were effecting him more. In fact, it's the exact opposite.

Let's see shall we who was winning the fight all the way until Obi-Wan ran out to where the landscape was all over the place:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

1:07-1:15 he's choking Obi-Wan to death. Forcing his Lightsaber down to his face. I suppose that's just his style right? Lol

Only a desperate kick saved his life there.

Then you mention how at 1:32 Anakin's on the floor and just barely gets his Lightsaber to block Obi-Wan's attack.

Firstly that situation would never have even come about if Anakin hadn't tried (and almost succeeded) to choke Obi-Wan to death. But still the fact that from that position Obi-Wan couldn't outduel an Anakin whose lying on his ass and who from that position parries Obi-Wan's 2 handed strike with just 1 hand!!!

The fact that Obi-Wan still couldn't outduel him and defeat him from that position in that situation proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Obi-Wan IS NOT a superior duelist to Anakin and is most likely Inferior!

Then at 2:20 there's a kick to the face which clearly wasn't Obi-Wan's style of fighting and clearly was hard for him to take. Which is the real reaosn he just retreats to where the Landscape is all over the place, because only there does Obi-Wan have a chance to survive this fight.

The final piece of evidence that Anakin would have without a doubt won this fight on neutral ground, is when Obi-Wan talks to him at the end. The guy is so out of breath and Anakin is just fine!

This again supports the script which says in the Dooku fight Anakin only gets stronger whilst Obi-Wan and Dooku get tired. And that was a much shorter fight!

How anyone can think Obi-Wan is an equal or even superior duelist to Anakin when Anakin tooled Count Dooku is beyond me.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Then you claim the force push effected Kenobi more.. why... wait for it.. wait for it.. Because Kenobi takes a little longer to get up and doesn't bounce around the room like an idiot jumping at skywalker? That is the reason. Sorry I saw nothing fo the sort there. I saw Kenobi not seeing the point in rushing somebody.. ya know.. because that just isn't what he does. The telling part of the scene was the STALEMATE on force powers. Which again shows Kenobi was very much in the fight and fighting on even terms. So that part has been proven incorrect.

Yes nice theory except we know as a fact that Anakin's ability to tank force attacks exceeds Obi-Wan's by absolute multitudes!

Anakin in the CW can has tanked pretty much all of Count Dooku's efforts to use the Force on him. Yes the same Count Dooku who disposes of Obi-Wan with a mere flick of the wrist!

So try again.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Let me ask you this.. Does Anakin have an arrogance problem throughout the movies? If he believes he's superior to someone or really in general.. is he prone to making rash bold moves? It's a simple question that is shown to be throughout all fomss of star wars lore. So if he believes he is so much more superior than Kenobi.. which he clearly did... why would he be prone to make mistakes EACH AND EVERY TIME they fought.. with Kenob's style playing right into that... Holding him off.. holding him off. waiting for said mistake. Why isn't that a likely outcome more times than not. Is Anakin suddenly not going to think he's superior and not make bold rash moves? NO.. he will.

Listen you keep saying he did this crap throughout the movies.. You mean he did it in 1 movie. AOTC. When he was a frustrated Padawan. That won't cut it. He's proved through the CW that HE IS Smarter than Obi-Wan. And that HE IS a scientific and tactical genius.

Being bold and rash isn't always a bad thing. What's dumb is to make a suicide move like he did. Jedi Anakin certainly isn't that stupid.

Imho switching to the Dark Side really increased his Arrogance and Rashness to a point where he did to that suicide move. But Jedi Anakin? Nah no way he'd do that move. In fact he'd probably see it coming before Obi-Wan made the jump.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Just because somebody doesn't view a scene or a fight in the same vein doesn't mean their views are dismissed and we have thick skulls. I've used PRIMARY CANON to support my theory and there is no getting aroudn that fact. I see NOTHIGN NOTHING to suggest via narration that Anakin was the superior duelist. I've asked time and time agian to produce said narration and I've gotten.. Anakin was forcing Kenobi back.. HUH.. that is the smoking gun? Please that is a water gun not a AK. Shit it's not even a super soaker. Speaking of forcing back.. Do you watch bocing? If so, watch Nelson vs. Whitaker... Shit even watch Ramirez vs. Whitaker... or literally countless examples in boxing... watch a PBF fight... They are FORCED back throughout the fight.. but does that mean they are losing? No they are not.. that is THEIR STYLE and they are in fact WINNING. Watch countless UFC fights.. countless boxing matches.. real life fights.. being forced back is not indicative of always losing. Period.

Yes your problem is your ONLY using primary canon and ignoring all the secondary canon which supports it and does not in any way contradict it. Some of that canon (CW series) is created and Executive Produced by Lucas himself.

I've already pointed out how his backing off was because he couldn't beat him on even ground. In fact he very almost got killed.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay, let's go over this because clearly you're viewing things very skewed one way and not open to anything else. You say Anakin's kicks were effecting Kenobi more.. NOT TRUE. Kenobo lands a ***** slap and STRAIGHT KEEP ANAKIN ON HIS BACK ON THE GROUND. Long enough for Kenobi to stand over him force call his sword and proceed to try and kill Anakin. There was no other strike Landed in the fight that kept either down as long as that. So that right there destroys your theory that Anakin strikes were effecting him more. In fact, it's the exact opposite.

Then you claim the force push effected Kenobi more.. why... wait for it.. wait for it.. Because Kenobi takes a little longer to get up and doesn't bounce around the room like an idiot jumping at skywalker? That is the reason. Sorry I saw nothing fo the sort there. I saw Kenobi not seeing the point in rushing somebody.. ya know.. because that just isn't what he does. The telling part of the scene was the STALEMATE on force powers. Which again shows Kenobi was very much in the fight and fighting on even terms. So that part has been proven incorrect.

Let me ask you this.. Does Anakin have an arrogance problem throughout the movies? If he believes he's superior to someone or really in general.. is he prone to making rash bold moves? It's a simple question that is shown to be throughout all fomss of star wars lore. So if he believes he is so much more superior than Kenobi.. which he clearly did... why would he be prone to make mistakes EACH AND EVERY TIME they fought.. with Kenob's style playing right into that... Holding him off.. holding him off. waiting for said mistake. Why isn't that a likely outcome more times than not. Is Anakin suddenly not going to think he's superior and not make bold rash moves? NO.. he will.

Just because somebody doesn't view a scene or a fight in the same vein doesn't mean their views are dismissed and we have thick skulls. I've used PRIMARY CANON to support my theory and there is no getting aroudn that fact. I see NOTHIGN NOTHING to suggest via narration that Anakin was the superior duelist. I've asked time and time agian to produce said narration and I've gotten.. Anakin was forcing Kenobi back.. HUH.. that is the smoking gun? Please that is a water gun not a AK. Shit it's not even a super soaker. Speaking of forcing back.. Do you watch bocing? If so, watch Nelson vs. Whitaker... Shit even watch Ramirez vs. Whitaker... or literally countless examples in boxing... watch a PBF fight... They are FORCED back throughout the fight.. but does that mean they are losing? No they are not.. that is THEIR STYLE and they are in fact WINNING. Watch countless UFC fights.. countless boxing matches.. real life fights.. being forced back is not indicative of always losing. Period.


^ This was very well thought out, IMO. But the thing is, usually in boxing or UFC, the defensive fighter will store his energy while the more aggressive fighter will expend his. However, if the defensive fighter is constantly forced against the ropes, and if his defensive style is not getting him anywhere other than not getting KOed, he will likely lose the fight. With Obi Wan and Anakin, Obi Wan was using up his energy just to last as long as he did, while there was no indications that Anakin was even beginning to get tired, despite the fact that Anakin was being more aggressive and launching most of the attacks. Anakin's force reserves exceeds Obi Wan's by miles. If it weren't for Obi Wan's high ground and Anakin's stupid move, Obi Wan would have most likely been tired out and killed.

That is largely because in unarmed combat, even if you don't get finished by strikes, they can still damage you and factor towards a decision against you. Though aggression is usually considered as well. But in a swordfight, you don't really get damaged unless you get hit directly, which often results in victory anyway. You can get tired out and stuff, and perhaps clashing blades can potentially cause some muscle damage as well, but in a swordfight all you really have to do for the most part to not take damage, is essentially not to get killed. So Obi-Wan's job is basically to survive until he gets to find an opponing or tire his opponent out. Perhaps he was tiring more quickly than Anakin (though heavy breathing doesn't always perfectly reflect how much longer you cna last for the record) but eh did exploit an oppening.

When a fighter is tired out, it slows him down and his performance will will not be as good. Even if Obi Wan sees an opening, he must also be fast enough to exploit it. He was unable to land a fatal blow on Anakin in the beginning of the duel, so what makes you think he can at the end, when he is being tired out and slowing down. I mean, it's possible, but not very likely, unless Anakin was also slowing down (and there is no indication of that). As I said, if it weren't for Obi Wan's high ground and Anakin's stupid move, most likely Obi Wan would have eventually been far too tired to keep up his performance, and would have thus been killed. Most likely, anyway.

Even if he didn't show it I'd like to think that Anakin would tire out during the fight, and even if Obi-Wan was tiring out at a greater rate he still had it in him to go as operate as quickly as he did at the beginning of the duel, and the nature of leaving an opening is such that it puts you on lower footing than your opponent in that moment, so Obi-Wan woudln't necessarily. need to have as much energy to be able to exploit it

Most of that points to Anakin having much better cardio than Anakin anyway, not being the better swordsman.

The script specifically notes Anakin FORCING Obi-Wan backwards. So he wasn't just falling back as part of his strategy or because it was his style. In this case he kept falling back, kept moving away from Anakin because Anakin was overpowering him.

Just because Obi-Wan was surviving doesn't mean they were equal. There was only so long he could keep up his defense and his backing off.

And S66 is right. The defensive fighter shouldn't be the one tiring. The purpose of keeping on the defense is to tire the opponent. Like when Muhammad Ali kept taking hits from George Foreman until all it took was a couple of hits to put Foreman down because HE was the one who was too tired from taking the offensive.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Let's see shall we who was winning the fight all the way until Obi-Wan ran out to where the landscape was all over the place:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

1:07-1:15 he's choking Obi-Wan to death. Forcing his Lightsaber down to his face. I suppose that's just his style right? Lol

Only a desperate kick saved his life there.

Then you mention how at 1:32 Anakin's on the floor and just barely gets his Lightsaber to block Obi-Wan's attack.

Firstly that situation would never have even come about if Anakin hadn't tried (and almost succeeded) to choke Obi-Wan to death. But still the fact that from that position Obi-Wan couldn't outduel an Anakin whose lying on his ass and who from that position parries Obi-Wan's 2 handed strike with just 1 hand!!!

The fact that Obi-Wan still couldn't outduel him and defeat him from that position in that situation proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Obi-Wan IS NOT a superior duelist to Anakin and is most likely Inferior!

Then at 2:20 there's a kick to the face which clearly wasn't Obi-Wan's style of fighting and clearly was hard for him to take. Which is the real reaosn he just retreats to where the Landscape is all over the place, because only there does Obi-Wan have a chance to survive this fight.

The final piece of evidence that Anakin would have without a doubt won this fight on neutral ground, is when Obi-Wan talks to him at the end. The guy is so out of breath and Anakin is just fine!

This again supports the script which says in the Dooku fight Anakin only gets stronger whilst Obi-Wan and Dooku get tired. And that was a much shorter fight!

How anyone can think Obi-Wan is an equal or even superior duelist to Anakin when Anakin tooled Count Dooku is beyond me.





Yes nice theory except we know as a fact that Anakin's ability to tank force attacks exceeds Obi-Wan's by absolute multitudes!

Anakin in the CW can has tanked pretty much all of Count Dooku's efforts to use the Force on him. Yes the same Count Dooku who disposes of Obi-Wan with a mere flick of the wrist!

So try again.




Listen you keep saying he did this crap throughout the movies.. You mean he did it in 1 movie. AOTC. When he was a frustrated Padawan. That won't cut it. He's proved through the CW that HE IS Smarter than Obi-Wan. And that HE IS a scientific and tactical genius.

Being bold and rash isn't always a bad thing. What's dumb is to make a suicide move like he did. Jedi Anakin certainly isn't that stupid.

Imho switching to the Dark Side really increased his Arrogance and Rashness to a point where he did to that suicide move. But Jedi Anakin? Nah no way he'd do that move. In fact he'd probably see it coming before Obi-Wan made the jump.



Yes your problem is your ONLY using primary canon and ignoring all the secondary canon which supports it and does not in any way contradict it. Some of that canon (CW series) is created and Executive Produced by Lucas himself.

I've already pointed out how his backing off was because he couldn't beat him on even ground. In fact he very almost got killed.

I like you DP but you seem to have an issue with making concessions on stuff. So let's try this again. You made the claim that Anakin's strikes (kicks punches) were effecting Kenobi more than vice versa. Yet is that really true. So answer this very basic question...

1. Did Kenob's strike in fact keep Anakin on the ground longer than ANY strike Anakin landed on Kenobi? This clearly makes your theory that Anakin strikes were effecting Kenobi more as not really true.

Then you go... Anakin is clearly a superior fighter because Kenobi had him in a vulnerable position and couldn't finish him.. Ummm okay.. But did you forget this part..

2. DId Anakin have Kenobi in a very similar position with him in the stronger position with more leverage and not able to finish the job. See by your premise and conclusion.. kenobi is clearly the stronger fighter since Anakin couldn't finish the job in such an advantagous position. I would submit, that this is a faulty premise and conclusion, but if you still want to peddle it, we can do so and Kenobi is then superior to Anakin based on him fighting of Anakin is such a vulnerable position. Or we can go.. yeah one is indicative of the other and that isn't proof of being superior.

Next question which I still haven't got a admission or concession on...

3. Are you claiming that there is NO evidence to Anakin making rash bold arrogant moves throughout the mythos? To me there is clear evidence to this and it has nothing to do with uneven ground. Making bold rash moves can happen on any ground and at any time. So is it your claim that such an opening would never present itself to Kenobi?

4. Do you concede that being forced back doesn't equate to losing or going to lose in all situations. It can be, but it also doesn't just as easily. True or no?

5. You also mention that Anakin is far smarter than Kenobi and go out of your way to through around titles like genius etc etc. Did anakin not state that Kenobi is as wise as Yoda and as powerful as windu? Wouldn't being as wise as yoda be a clear form of intelligence and clarity and thus make you very intelligent in your own right?

Let's start there and see where we end up.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
When a fighter is tired out, it slows him down and his performance will will not be as good. Even if Obi Wan sees an opening, he must also be fast enough to exploit it. He was unable to land a fatal blow on Anakin in the beginning of the duel, so what makes you think he can at the end, when he is being tired out and slowing down. I mean, it's possible, but not very likely, unless Anakin was also slowing down (and there is no indication of that). As I said, if it weren't for Obi Wan's high ground and Anakin's stupid move, most likely Obi Wan would have eventually been far too tired to keep up his performance, and would have thus been killed. Most likely, anyway.

I understand the point you're making at it's a fair one. Yes, the more and more kenobi got tired.. the less likely he would be able to take advantage of such things. No argument there. My only point was the premise and conclusion that being forced back means you're winning and going to win is completly and totally false. We see this true in all mediums of combat and sports.

All you mention Anakin's force reserves being far far greater than Kenobi's. I'm just curious what you're basing this on.. do you have the narration that states this.. If you do that's great and would be appreciated. I've just never seen it so I'm curious.

EU material is superceded by the movies, plus its really just a matter of the phrasing. The style is designed to use a stance that protects the body, at the expense of gaining or even maintaining ground. So even if he is being pushed back, the style is designed with that in mind, as long as he continues to survive.

Yes but even if that was the case it just means Anakin ahs better cardio, not that he is the better swordsmna.

Nobody ahs proven that Anakin is a flawless swordsman and that he wouldn't eventually make a mistake even without doing something ridiculous like he did with his jump in the movie.

KT I'll get back to your other post later. Don't have time to address it all right now.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi


All you mention Anakin's force reserves being far far greater than Kenobi's. I'm just curious what you're basing this on.. do you have the narration that states this.. If you do that's great and would be appreciated. I've just never seen it so I'm curious.

During the Dooku fight it's stated in the ROTS Novel and in the ROTS Script that Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on. The novel explains it as being due to his seemingly unlimited force reserves.

Whilst the novel clearly states how Dooku was getting tired, the Script states both Obi-Wan and Dooku were getting tired.

To add to this the end of the Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight when they're talking, Obi-Wan is seen to be panting whilst Anakin looks like he just took a stroll.

Originally posted by evry1lovesrolan


Yes but even if that was the case it just means Anakin ahs better cardio, not that he is the better swordsmna.



In terms of skill they're on a very similar level. But I'd give Obi-Wan the edge.

But Anakin's Force reserves make him stronger and able to last longer. Not only that but he gets stronger as the fight goes on.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really??

So at 1:07 to 1:15 he didn't come even close to killing Obi-Wan???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI No, no he didnt.

I don't see how Zoneakin doesn't dominate this match up.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I don't see how Zoneakin doesn't dominate this match up. just like how you didnt see obi wan defeat him on mustafar.

Originally posted by mnat801
No, no he didnt.

You need glasses.

Originally posted by mnat801
just like how you didnt see obi wan defeat him on mustafar.

1. Skywalker was a superior combatant to Obi-Wan on Mustafar
2. His judgement was clouded, as was his decision making.
3. Zoneakin>Darth Vader in any form.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
KT I'll get back to your other post later. Don't have time to address it all right now.



During the Dooku fight it's stated in the ROTS Novel and in the ROTS Script that Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on. The novel explains it as being due to his seemingly unlimited force reserves.

Whilst the novel clearly states how Dooku was getting tired, the Script states both Obi-Wan and Dooku were getting tired.

To add to this the end of the Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight when they're talking, Obi-Wan is seen to be panting whilst Anakin looks like he just took a stroll.



In terms of skill they're on a very similar level. But I'd give Obi-Wan the edge.

But Anakin's Force reserves make him stronger and able to last longer. Not only that but he gets stronger as the fight goes on.

Fair enough DP and I appreciate the narration and where you were coming from in that regard.

DP, your reasoning isn't good enough to make it clear that anakin is the superior fighter.

Your say that the stalemated force push effected anakin a lot less than obi wan. If you watch it again you'll see that anakin was the first person to collide with the wall out of the two. Hmm.. does that mean obi wan's force push is better than anakins? Possibly. And that also explains why anakin was up first.

You can't conclude the fact that anakin was the superior fighter just because he got more kicks in and forced him backwards. It only shows anakins aggressve fighting, and obi wans defensive style of fighting. Now you can't say that it WASNT his style of fighting, otherwise you would see obi wan using his ataru, so it would be a totally different story.

The choke. Well, what else was he supposed to do? He waited until he was almost lying down, and then kicked him. No conflict there. Lucas was saying he was FORCED backwards, not that he was the superior duelist.

It is very clear throughout the movies AND TCW series that anakin does at times makes some silly decisions - in and out of combat. I dont know why this still isnt clear to you. And it beyond me how you could even think of anakin being smarter than obi wan. For me, thats like saying 1+1=3. I'd be suprised if you could even think of one example that proves this.

Its funny how you talk about jedi anakin like he is a totally seperate being from corrupt anakin/vader. Yes, his mind was twisted, and he was corrupt, but remember, its the same person. It is DEFINITELEY in his character to make a stupid move like at the end of the mustafar duel, and so thats probably what obi wan was waiting for. And looking at that result alone, defines the fact that obi wan being the superior combatant.

And its not that were ignoring secondary canon, because we have taken it into account, but we are saying that the secondary canon you've shown isn't good enough to make it clear that anakin is better.

And you can argue that obi wan almost got killed, unfortunately though, he didn't get killed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You need glasses. You need to take of that helmet. Obi wan was getting choked, yes, but he kicked him away, so how does that sum up the fact that anakins superior?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
1. Skywalker was a superior combatant to Obi-Wan on Mustafar
2. His judgement was clouded, as was his decision making.
3. Zoneakin>Darth Vader in any form. 1. explain to me how that is, when it was obi wan left standing.
2. Yes, but your not taking into account obi wan and how he is reluctant to kill his once best friend and padawan, hence why he was always on the defensive.
3. Same person, plus it looked to me like he was really set on killing obi wan, even more so that he did with dooku.
4. Anything else?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The script specifically notes Anakin FORCING Obi-Wan backwards. So he wasn't just falling back as part of his strategy or because it was his style. In this case he kept falling back, kept moving away from Anakin because Anakin was overpowering him.

Just because Obi-Wan was surviving doesn't mean they were equal. There was only so long he could keep up his defense and his backing off.

And S66 is right. The defensive fighter shouldn't be the one tiring. The purpose of keeping on the defense is to tire the opponent. Like when Muhammad Ali kept taking hits from George Foreman until all it took was a couple of hits to put Foreman down because HE was the one who was too tired from taking the offensive. Just because obi wan was being forced back doesn't mean anakin is the superior combatant! Yeah S66 is right. But even tired, obi wan was still able to pull of a win.

Hold on, what are you trying to get out of the ali vs foreman fight? Because as far as im concerned, this is very similiar to the mustafar duel being in obi wans favour. foreman was on the offensive, ali was on the defensive and waited until the end to finsh foreman off.

I think it would still be close. It would be interesting to see how the fight would turn out on flat ground without hazards.